Mary Louise Kelly (3:16)

I'm tempted to follow up on there, but I'm going to move on. You open the book with September 11th and how that caused the CIA to pivot from its Cold War era mission of espionage and remake itself into a paramilitary force, the tip of the spear against Al Qaeda. To what degree has the pendulum since swung back?

Tim Weiner (3:40)

After 15 years in which counterterrorism swamped pretty much everything and pushed the traditions of espionage and counterintelligence into the background? Profound shift happened at CIA. In the beginning of 2017. There was a new chief of spies at CIA. His name, Tomas Rakusan. His roots are Czech. He was nine years old when the Russians rolled into Prague to crush the popular resistance to Soviet oppression in Czechoslovakia. His feelings about the Russians were bred in the bones. And he called in his top people, the top spies at the CIA who had spent a generation in counterterrorism, and said, listen, the Russians manipulated our election to help elect Donald Trump. How do we make sure this never happens again? And he told them to take the talents that they had honed in targeting terrorists. And by targeting, I don't mean putting warheads on foreheads. I mean figuring out who they are, how they live, whom they love, who they hate, with an effort to recruit them and turn those talents on the Russians, on Russian spies, diplomats, and oligarchs. And the result of this, four years later, is that the CIA penetrated the Kremlin and stole Vladimir Putin's war plans for Ukraine and told the world, a skeptical world, that Russia was about to attack.

Mary Louise Kelly (5:14)

Let me jump in because I want to ask a separate question on Ukraine. But before I do, to go back to your assertion that the Chinese want to know one us, the Russians just want to screw us. Is it mutual?

Tim Weiner (5:27)

Well, screw thy enemy is definitely part of the equation here. Ever since the CIA was founded in 1947, it has tried to oppose, blunt, undermine, subvert Russian imperialism in the world. That took kind of a backseat after the end of the Cold War. CI directors told the CIA's officers to be nice to the Russians, to, like, work with them on fields of mutual interest like counterterrorism. And one senior CIA officer told me that this was like a guy who goes out and buys a baboon, and the baboon rips his face off and then he goes out and buys another baboon. The Russians were not interested in cooperation they shook your hand with one hand and picked your pocket with the next.

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Mary Louise Kelly (8:23)

So let me bring us to this moment. We are in 2025 and the CIA again serves a commander in chief, a president who has openly questioned the agency's leaders and their work. When you ask current CIA officers about that, what do you hear?

Tim Weiner (8:40)

Well, the gut wrenching, nauseating feeling that the president of the United States has gone over to the other side and joined the axis of authoritarianism is hard for an outsider to understand. The feeling that went through the high levels of the CIA when Trump ordered the United States to vote with Russia, North Korea, and Iran at the United nations against a residential resolution condemning the Russian occupation of Ukraine last February 24th.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:19)

Did CIA staffers raise that Specifically with you, that incident.

Tim Weiner (9:22)

Oh, yeah.

Mary Louise Kelly (9:23)

And what were they saying?

Tim Weiner (9:25)

You know, there's an ideological purge that Trump has ordered at CIA. And the current director, John Ratcliffe, who is a MAGA acolyte, has told top officers and analysts with 20 or 30 years experience to head for the exits, find a new line of work. He dismissed two years worth of new hires, everybody the CIA had hired in 20, 23 and 24. And ideology is the enemy of intelligence. If you're an ideologue, your mind is made up. You don't want to be confused with facts. And it's a very difficult, dangerous time for the CIA and indeed for all of American national security. Mary Louise, you've got the instruments of national security, the Pentagon, the Directorate of National Intelligence, the FBI and its national security intelligence divisions in the hands of Pete Hegsett, Tulsi, Gabbard, Kash Patel, and the CIA in the hands of John Radcliffe. These people are not professionals. They are amateurs. And worse, they are toadies who will do anything and say anything to please the President. You want an intelligence service to tell you the truth, to warn you about dangers coming over the horizon? Trump and indeed Secretary of State Rubio have openly said, screw intelligence. We don't care what the intelligence services say. We have our own facts in reality. And if the intelligence services, if the CIA conflict with that, the hell with them.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:08)

I want to separate out how much of what you just said is your view based on reporting, but your view? And how much is what you are hearing from people who are working at the agency.

Tim Weiner (11:20)

Now, I have to say that people are trying to keep their heads down lest they get chopped off, which is not a good posture for the world's most famous intelligence service.

Mary Louise Kelly (11:32)

You mentioned CIA Director John Ratcliffe. Among the things he's done away with are long standing mandates for a diverse workforce. This, of course, as the Trump administration is working to dismantle DEI programs across the government. Does it pose Tim Weiner specific challenges for the CIA?

Tim Weiner (11:52)

The reason the CIA wants a diverse workforce is that it is not good tradecraft to send a white guy who looks like he just got off the bus from Wichita into countries like China, into Africa, into countries where white people are the minority. It's not good cover. You want people who have not only the look, but the languages and the country knowledge of the countries they're spying upon. Diversity was one of the CIA's superpowers. It's how they don't get caught.

Mary Louise Kelly (12:29)

A question on your sources. I covered the intelligence beat for years. I used Plenty of anonymous sources to do so, and that was to allow people to speak more freely and to protect people who were risking their jobs to talk to me. You used no anonymous sources in this book. How did you make that work?

Tim Weiner (12:49)

Well, I've been at this for 38 years, and if you hang around long enough, people come to trust you up to a point. Also, I believe that if you use anonymous sources too freely, why should a reader trust you? If people are on the record, that would instill trust in the reader and in their faith in the author.

Mary Louise Kelly (13:17)

But how, for example, did you persuade the sitting chief of the Clandestine Service to talk? This is a guy who spent more than 30 years undercover. He's never given an interview.

Tim Weiner (13:27)

I asked. The thing that made me ask for an interview with Tom Sylvester, who stepped down this past Memorial day as the CIA's chief of spies, is that the CIA has an in house podcast and he appeared on it as Tom S. Not in full name. And gave just a remarkable interview. And it struck me. So I called up the CIA's Office of Public Affairs. Yes, it has one. And request an interview. Request granted.

Mary Louise Kelly (14:03)

Are there stories you wish you could tell in this book and you couldn't get your source to go on the record?

Tim Weiner (14:09)

I wish I knew more about how the CIA tried to rebuild its network of recruited foreign agents in China after dozens of them were rolled up, arrested, tortured, imprisoned and killed back about 14 years ago. And I wish I knew more about what is going on right now. It is a very dangerous thing to have an intelligence service in the hands of an autocrat. And I wish I knew if there is in fact resistance at the CIA to Trump's foreign policies. The CIA is an instrument of American foreign policy. With the rarest exceptions, it does what the President tells it to do. I'd like to know if there's a.

Mary Louise Kelly (14:59)

Resistance inside Langley, you and me both. To end by looping back to where we began and the questions of how technology has made it so much more challenging than it ever was to try to spy, to try to collect human intelligence on your adversary. You've now written a couple of histories of the CIA, this one covering the first 25 years of this 21st century. Do you think there'll be a CIA around in anything resembling a recognizable form 25 years from now?

Tim Weiner (15:33)

That depends how we get through the next three and a half years. The President of the United States is implacably hostile to the idea of intelligence. He thinks the CIA is the capital of the deep state, which it is decidedly not. There's a reason, Mary Louise, that they call spying the world's second oldest profession. It's been around since Joshua took Jericho. Spying is somehow inbred in our bones. We want to know secrets. We want to know what the other person thinks. And I cannot imagine America as a superpower without an intelligence service to warn of dangers over the horizon.

Sacha Pfeiffer (16:29)

Tim Weiner's book is called the the CIA in the 21st century. A version of that interview appeared on All Things Considered in July. Once again, we're off the rest of this week for Thanksgiving, and all of us at NPR, thank you for supporting our work this year. I'm Sacha Pfeiffer. We're back next week with more sources and methods from NPR.

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