Starmer’s successor / Reset on UK-US relationship? / Strait latest

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Starmer’s Successor / Reset on UK-US Relationship? / Strait Latest"

Podcast: Sources & Methods, NPR
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests: Tom Bowman (Pentagon Correspondent), Lauren Frayer (London Correspondent), Rose Marley (Former Advisor, Manchester)
Date: June 25, 2026

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Overview:

This episode dissects a turbulent week in British politics, as Keir Starmer resigns as UK Prime Minister—ushering in yet another transition of power and raising questions about Britain’s political future, implications for the UK-US “special relationship,” continued UK support for Ukraine, and the status of the violence-embroiled Strait of Hormuz. The show blends on-the-ground insight from London and Pentagon perspectives, weaving together how political upheaval reverberates globally.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Britain’s Political Turmoil: Starmer’s Resignation and the Rise of Andy Burnham

Timestamps: 00:35-11:08

• Context and Cadence of Change:

  • Britain faces its 7th Prime Minister in 10 years. The episode contextualizes this relentless turnover since Brexit (2016), which has led to economic contraction, political instability, and “anger at elites.”

    "This country is less powerful than it was before. It's also triggered this anger at elites, distrust of the governing class, desire to drain the swamp." (Lauren Frayer, 00:24)

  • Lauren Frayer recalls that when she took over the London beat, they were already on their fifth PM.

• Keir Starmer’s Downfall:

  • Starmer’s resignation is tied to two main factors:
    • Damaging scandal regarding Starmer’s appointment of Peter Mandelson, a known associate of Jeffrey Epstein, as UK Ambassador to Washington. Once the extent of Mandelson’s association became clear, he was fired, but the damage lingered.

      “He quickly fired him once the extent of that relationship became known. But it was pretty damaging.” (Lauren Frayer, 05:28)

    • Chronic inability to connect with voters despite winning a Labour landslide in Parliament—plummeting personal approval ratings and perceptions of being “wooden.”

      “He just wasn't able to convince voters who were hungry for change...that radical change was here or coming.” (Lauren Frayer, 05:28)

• Dramatic Succession and Public Mood:

  • Andy Burnham, former Mayor of Manchester, emerges as the likely successor; his journey to Parliament broadcast live, evoking analogies with high-drama political moments.

    “It was like the OJ Simpson white van on the LA freeway… or watching Yevgeny Prigozhin march on Moscow.” (Mary Louise Kelly & Lauren Frayer, 07:12)

  • There’s a kind of populist energy and Manchester identity (“Manchesterism”) associated with Burnham.

    “Andy will also talk about it as being an end to neoliberalism.” (Rose Marley, 09:18) “You see bees everywhere... and they're worker bees. That's the Manchester identity.” (Lauren Frayer, 09:42)

• Governability Questioned:

  • Frayer muses that the political system, post-Brexit, may now be essentially ungovernable for anyone in the current climate.

    “Short answer. No, because we're going on seven in 10 years... this country is less powerful than it was before and less upwardly mobile.” (Lauren Frayer, 10:24)

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2. Implications for UK-US Relations, Ukraine, and the “Special Relationship”

Timestamps: 12:55-19:00

• UK Support for Ukraine:

  • Starmer had a notably close partnership with Ukraine’s Zelenskyy; UK’s steadfast support included ramped-up military aid and tech (especially drones).

    "Zelenskyy has reason to be nervous. Starmer was really his advocate... there was real affinity there and a real loyalty." (Lauren Frayer, 13:35)

  • Tom Bowman suggests Andy Burnham and other Labor leaders (e.g., Alistair Carnes) are likely to maintain or intensify support, especially regarding drone warfare and AI.

    “Burnham... is a big supporter of Ukraine... his big thing is drones. He said the future of warfare is AI and drones, and Britain isn't doing enough...” (Tom Bowman, 14:38)

  • UK and Europe have provided significant aid ($90 billion) and are leading the “drone initiative” for Ukraine, outpacing the US.

    "They hope to get... 150,000 drones by the end of the year. Now the US is talking about a similar initiative. They haven't even started it yet." (Tom Bowman, 14:38)

• “Special Relationship” Reset?

  • Starmer’s relationship with Trump was pragmatic but at times awkward, particularly when the Iran war erupted.
  • In April, Starmer publicly distanced the UK from US involvement in Iran.

    "This is not our war. We will not be drawn into the conflict that is not in our national interest." (Keir Starmer, 16:56) "It's jarring to hear a British prime minister talk about, hey, America, that's your war, nothing to do with us. Historically, Winston Churchill would be turning in his grave." (Mary Louise Kelly, 17:17)

  • The UK sought leverage: deploying King Charles as a “Trump whisperer” and offering symbolic military contributions (e.g., HMS Dragon in the Arabian Sea) to maintain goodwill.

    "The UK Under Starmer also deployed King Charles to try to be a Trump whisperer." (Lauren Frayer, 17:37)

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3. Strait of Hormuz and UK/US Military Operations

Timestamps: 20:55-23:57

• Maritime Security and Realities:
  • The Strait remains neither open nor fully closed; only about 40 ships per day are transiting (vs. pre-war 130).

    "It's not open. It's not closed. It's somewhere in the middle, somewhere in the gray area." (Tom Bowman, 21:25)

  • Most ships use paths nearer Oman for safety.
  • US-led demining efforts are ongoing, but full clearance may take months (not the 30 days predicted by US officials).

    “We can demine this area in 30 days. I don't think that's likely... at least a couple of months to make that happen.” (Tom Bowman, 21:25)

  • UK contribution (HMS Dragon) is positioned in the Arabian Sea, awaiting a durable ceasefire before fully participating.

    "I think it's sort of motoring, maybe." (Lauren Frayer, 23:48)
    “There's no sense it's on a course for the Strait of Hormuz or off Oman.” (Tom Bowman, 23:50)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On British Political Dysfunction:

  “Is Britain ungovernable? ...Short answer. No, because we're going on seven in 10 years.” (Lauren Frayer, 10:04)
  “You see bees everywhere, symbols of bumblebees on every municipal flower pot...That's the Manchester identity. The working bees, they work together.” (Lauren Frayer, 09:42)

• On Generational Shifts in Military Info Access:

  "Every place I went in Vietnam, I took reporters with me because the American people have a right to know what their sons are doing in their name. And I never forgot that. But that's all gone now." (Hal Moore recalled by Tom Bowman, 24:11)

• OSINT (Open Source Intelligence) Closing

  • Frayer humorously shares that “NPR” in Manchester refers not to National Public Radio, but the “Northern Powerhouse Rail” project.

    “Up in Manchester this week, everybody's talking about npr, npr. I'm like, I'm so flattered. It's Northern Powerhouse Rail.” (Lauren Frayer, 27:11)

  • Kelly relates learning that “SNOG” (in UK slang, meaning a make-out session) for US senators actually refers to the “Senate NATO Observer Group.”

    “This came up because there is a SNOG delegation headed to Turkey... It will be snog in action.” (Mary Louise Kelly, 29:26)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:35 — Episode introduction and UK political upheaval preview
• 02:42 — Starmer’s resignation speech
• 03:30–06:25 — Breakdown of Starmer’s downfall and the crisis timeline
• 07:12–08:03 — The drama of Burnham’s succession capture public imagination
• 09:18 — Rose Marley explains “Manchesterism”
• 10:24 — Brexit’s legacy and Britain’s “ungovernability”
• 12:55–16:27 — UK’s commitment to Ukraine, future outlook under possible Prime Minister Burnham
• 16:56–19:00 — Shifts in UK-US relations, Starmer’s Iran war response, Trump dynamics
• 21:25–23:57 — Strait of Hormuz: reality check and UK’s military gestures
• 24:11–26:53 — Tom Bowman on the loss of wartime journalist embeds
• 27:01–29:28 — OSINT: acronym confusions and transatlantic cultural differences

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Takeaways

• Britain’s political volatility post-Brexit has shaken institutions and public confidence, echoing broader global trends of distrust and anger towards elites.
• Despite leadership changes, robust UK support for Ukraine is poised to continue, with an emphasis on advanced military technology.
• The “special relationship” with the US is being recalibrated pragmatically, as the UK now approaches Washington with more independence, especially in matters like Iran.
• Maritime security operations highlight the complexity of modern conflict management and diplomatic signaling, with symbolic military deployments playing as much a political as a practical role.
• Increased secrecy in military operations has stifled journalistic access and public understanding—a loss noted with nostalgia and concern by veteran journalists.

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Notable Sign-off

“That's a better T shirt. You can have a snog cap and an NPR train T shirt. Don't snog any of those senators.” (Mary Louise Kelly, 29:28)

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This episode offers a brisk, informed, and occasionally wry look at high-stakes political change in the UK and its global consequences—with a sharp focus on the overlap between domestic turbulence and international security.

Transcript

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[Lauren Frayer]

this country is less powerful than it was before. It's also triggered this anger at elites, distrust of the governing class, desire to drain the swamp.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Another British prime minister on his way out the door. If you were counting, that is six in 10 years. Now the UK is once again looking for a new leader. Will that mean yet another reset of the special relationship with the United States? This is Sources and methods from NPR. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. And today is Thursday, June 25, which means it is Sources and Methods Day, which means we are diving into this week's biggest national security stories with the NPR reporters out there covering them here in D.C. with me in the studio, NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Hiya, Tom.

[Tom Bowman]

Good to be here.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And making her Sources and Methods debut, Lauren Frayer, our London correspondent, joining us from our bureau at the BBC in London.

[Keir Starmer]

Hey.

[Lauren Frayer]

Hi. Cheerio.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Are you in the same studio there in London where you have hosted the show from? I have hosted the show and I hosted, I think it was the fourth episode of this podcast. Cause we were both there covering President Trump's royal visit. And I think we both said the words pomp and pageantry about 87 times in our.

[Lauren Frayer]

Exactly. We need your autograph on the wall here.

[Rose Marley]

Thank you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I'll have to come back and do it. That'd be fun. All right, so let's timestamp. It is just past noon here in Washington, which makes it 5pm in London, where y' all have had quite a week. This week marks 10 since Britain voted to leave the EU Brexit. And in those 10 years, Britain has lived through six prime ministers gearing up now for number seven. I was trying to remember when you took over the London beat, Lauren. Like, what prime minister were we on?

[Lauren Frayer]

We were on five. Rishi Sunak, he was new. Okay. And now, so I've seen the end of Rishi Sunak's term, all of Keir Starmer's term, and we're going on the seventh prime minister in 10 years. And that looks to be Andy Burnham

[Mary Louise Kelly]

about in a second. But first, I want to take us all the way back many news cycles ago, all the way back to Monday.

[Keir Starmer]

The question my party is asking now is whether I am best placed to lead us into the next general election. I have heard the answer of my parliamentary party to that question. And I accept that answer with good grace. Every decision I've taken has been about putting the country I love first. That is why I will resign as leader of the Labour Party.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, so again, that was Monday. That was Keir Starmer outside 10 Downing street, the residence of the British Prime Minister. A house he will soon be moving out of, I gather. Lauren, walk us through where you were, how Monday unfolded for you, what this was like to cover.

[Lauren Frayer]

I mean, there's been speculation that he was going to resign. His poll numbers are at a historic low for any prime minister of any party in British history. So it's kind of an only a matter of time. And so on Saturday night, I started getting messages like, hey, this looks imminent. And also on the weekend, his team stopped continuing to insist he would fight, that he would stay. And that was kind of a cue to us that he would stay.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

He entered like a period of reflection. We were seeing quotes along those lines.

[Lauren Frayer]

He went to Checkers, the country retreat, with his wife huddled, and he was writing his resignation speech. We know now, but the biggest cue is when that podium gets rolled out in front of 10 Downing Street. So whenever this has happened and we've seen six of them in 10 years, they bring this podium, they bring the speakers out, then they bring the podium out, and then we know it's only a matter of time. He's gonna walk out that door or she's gonna walk out that door and resign. And sure enough, it 9:30 on Monday morning.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That's the only time they roll the podium out. The Prime Minister doesn't address the nation from outside Downing street the way that, I don't know, the President of the United States does from. From the White House.

[Lauren Frayer]

I mean, he gives. There is a briefing room inside 10 Downing Street. But. But no, that seems to be where they resign. And they have this sort of scary walk out to that podium where all eyes are on them and they're usually clutching their. Their spouse's hand on the way. And then they get out there and in the case of Keir Starmer and several other prime ministers who've resigned, it

[Keir Starmer]

was tearful to my fantastic wife, Vic, who has been a rock by my side through good times and bad.

[Lauren Frayer]

I mean, his voice was emotional. He choked back tears. He thanked his family. I mean, this was a really hard decision for him.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Why did he resign?

[Lauren Frayer]

So some reasons. You may have heard of the name Peter Mandelson. He a close friend of the late sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Starmer appointed Peter Mandelson as UK Ambassador to Washington, knowing he had this friendship with Epstein, not knowing the extent. He quickly fired him once the extent of that relationship became known. But it was pretty damaging. So that's one reason. But moreover, Starmer just never really connected with voters. He won Labor a landslide majority in Parliament two years ago, but his own personal approval ratings were never really high to begin with and then plummeted. He comes off sometimes as a bit wooden. He just wasn't able to convince voters who were hungry for change after 14 years of budget cuts and austerity under the Conservative Party before him. He wasn't able to convince people that radical change was here or coming.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, zip back, Lawrence, before we move on from how this week started and move to where it's gone. Monday, we're talking about the scene outside Downing street, but there was a split screen happening for Britain's trying to track political events that day.

[Lauren Frayer]

So on one side, Keir Starmer tearfully resigning. On the other, helicopter above North London, a live stream. Helicopter footage of his likely successor, Andy Burnham, on a train from Manchester, where he was mayor until a couple days ago, streaming down to the Capitol to take that job. And it was like the OJ Simpson white van on the LA freeway. Anybody who's old enough to remember that

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I was seeing a tweet from. I wanna say it's the Economist's Washington bureau chief who said, this is like watching Yevgeny Prigozhin march on Moscow a few years ago.

[Lauren Frayer]

Or Napoleon.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Right? Like if Napoleon had had live cams and helicopters tracking him, this is what we might have. I mean, the import attached to this. And then at the train station, at

[Lauren Frayer]

the train station, people were yelling, are you staging a coup? I mean, he was coming down to Parliament to be sworn in as the new MP for Makerfield. He won a by election last. Last week. Gosh, it feels like a year ago. He won a special election for a vacant seat in Parliament. Last week was coming down to be sworn into Parliament, but all of this happened at the same time. And now he actually entered the Capitol as the likely new Prime Minister.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So, Lauren, you got on a train a couple days later, going the other way to go up to Manchester to hear what people in Andy Burnham's hometown make of all this. What'd they tell you?

[Lauren Frayer]

He was actually born in Liverpool, raised halfway between Liverpool and Manchester, but, like, Manchester is where he made his name. Incidentally, he's been in Parliament before. He served 16 years in parliament, ran for Labour labor leader twice before. Guess who nominated him in One of those leadership races. Keir Starmer. Yeah, a buddy. Yeah, a buddy. A fellow lawmaker of Starmer. But he went back to Manchester to be mayor and that's really where he made his name. Manchester is the birth of the Industrial Revolution, the sort of birthplace of the working class. And that's the identity that Andy Burnham has. It's also a demographic that in recent years have felt sort of left behind by globalization. And it's a demographic that. That every politician right now is seeking to tap into and represent. There's a term that people use in Manchester. They say it's Manchesterism. And I met with one of Burnham's advisors when he was mayor. Her name is Rose Marley. And she unpacked what this term means.

[Rose Marley]

Manchesterism forces people coming together to affect the change, doing things for themselves and having a real can do attitude. That's what the Mancunians would consider Manchesterism, this kind of economic viewpoints. Andy will also talk about it as being an end to neo liberalism. But ultimately it's the Manchester bee, the

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Manchester beef bee, like buzzing bees.

[Lauren Frayer]

So this is the thing. I didn't know what it was. You see bees everywhere, symbols of bumblebees on every municipal flower pot, every municipal lamp, and they're worker bees. And this represents Manchester. And this is what people get tattoos of, bumblebees. That's the Manchester identity. The working bees, they work together.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I want to land us on just one more question before we change gears. Seven prime ministers in a decade, In a decade, in a few days. Is Britain ungovernable? Is anybody in this current climate able to hold on to the prime ministership for more than a couple of years?

[Lauren Frayer]

Short answer. No, because we're going on seven in 10 years. It's no coincidence that 10 years ago this week, Britain's voted for Brexit to leave the European Union. And that set in motion a real contraction of the British economy. By one estimate, 6% of GDP disappeared. And so that has sort of reverberated through the country and through the economy and through people's psyche. I mean, this country is less powerful than it was before and less upwardly mobile than it was before. It's also triggered this anger at elites, distrust of the governing class, desire to drain the swamp. I mean, that's something that you guys might be familiar with on your side of the pond.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

We are going to take a break. When we come back, British political uncertainty. What might that mean for the United States and Ukraine and Iran? That's ahead on Sources and Methods from NPR.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

state law okay, we're back. We're going to keep talking about the United Kingdom and its political turmoil right now, but I want to bring Ukraine into the mix because, Lauren, you were telling me the other day it seemed like President Zelensky, Volodymyr Zelenskyy of Ukraine that he was in London nearly every week. There was a real relationship between Zelenskyy and Keir Starmer and between their countries, with Britain sending money for Ukraine to help fight Russia with Keir Starmer on the way out. Do we know what the implications of that might be beyond Britain and start with Ukraine?

[Lauren Frayer]

Yeah, I mean, I think Zelenskyy has reason to be nervous. Starmer was really his advocate. And I mentioned how Starmer came across as sort of wooden or unable to connect. The exception was Zelenskyy. I mean, he would hug him in front of 10 Downing Street. I mean, there was real affinity there and a real loyalty and a sense of responsibility. And I should say it's not just Starmer. I mean the British establishment, really, this war is on Europe's doorstep and I think the UK is acutely aware of that. Even Figures from rival parties. Boris Johnson, former prime minister from the Conservative Party, has written and spoken passionately about the need to support Ukraine. Um, so Starmer's departure does leave a big question mark about whether the sort of trajectory that he had put the UK on in ramping up defense spending, in ramping up its own arms industry, will continue or whether it could even accelerate under a new leader.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, I think likely accelerate we talked about. Burnham, of course, is a big supporter of Ukraine. You know, another name to keep an eye on is Alistair Carnes. He's a Labor member from Birmingham. He just stepped down as Defense minister for the armed services because he said Keir Starmers isn't spending enough money on defense and he's not spending it in the right areas. Artificial intelligence, drones, that's his big push. He is also a big supporter of Ukraine. I met him last year. Year. Very impressive guy. I think he would likely come back in government, maybe as defense minister. But also, it's important to note that Britain and the rest of Europe, they've loaned Ukraine $90 billion, number one. And number two, the UK and Ukraine have this drone initiative. They're cranking out tens of thousands of drones for Ukraine. They hope to get to get this 150,000 drones by the end of the year. Now the US is talking about a similar initiative. They haven't even started it yet. But Britain and Ukraine are moving forward quickly and again. Getting back to Karnes, his big thing is drones. He said the future of warfare is AI and drones, and Britain isn't doing enough at this point to make that happen.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

It's so fascinating, and it gets at a thread we've tugged on a few times on this podcast about how Ukraine, over the four plus years of its war with Russia, has evolved from being like the poor child recipient of all the aid to the ones who are setting the pace for everyone else. Nobody else can keep up.

[Lauren Frayer]

Right.

[Tom Bowman]

Lauren raised a good point. This is a huge issue for Europe because Ukraine is on their doorstep, especially Eastern Europe. So there's a great focus on Ukraine, great support for Ukraine, and you're going to see that continue not only in Britain, but throughout Europe as well.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Lauren, back to you. Back to changing times in Britain. We've been talking about the very warm relationship between Keir Starmer and Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Kind of a different relationship from Keir Starmer and Donald Trump, which, like many of President Trump's relationships, can run hot or cold depending on the hour that you catch him at. But I want to note how much the war in Iran seem to rock the boat in that relationship, here's Starmer.

[Keir Starmer]

This is not our war. We will not be drawn into the conflict that is not in our national interest. And the most effective way we can support the cost of living in Britain is to push for de escalation in the Middle east and a reopening of the Strait of Hormuz.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So Keir Starmer, that was him speaking back in April when he was still solidly prime minister. And we didn't know what, what was coming. But it is jarring to hear a British prime minister talk about, hey, America, that's your war, nothing to do with us. I mean, historically, Winston Churchill would be turning in his grave.

[Lauren Frayer]

Starmer got actually a huge boost in the polls from that speech. And that is one other point where Starmer really came alive and put down his foot against Trump's war in Iran in a way that he had never been willing to disagree with Trump before. Mary Louise, as you know, you were over here covering one of Trump's two visits to the UK Last summer. Keir Starmer was very careful, has always been very careful not to contradict Trump. And he saw himself as, you know, halfway. And he's seen the UK as halfway, sort of between Europe, the quote unquote, socialist governments of Europe, as Trump might see them, and the U.S. and he, he sought to use that special relationship to bring Trump onside. The UK Under Starmer also deployed King Charles to try to be a Trump whisperer. And that's one thing that Starmer will be part of his legacy. He did have initial success on that for months. And Trump called him a good friend. And even on news of Starmer's resignation, Trump said, he's a lovely guy. I hate to see him go, but he made mistakes on X, Y, Z. He mentioned what he calls windmills, wind turbines, of the reasons Starmer is leaving office. But it's something that miffed Trump.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, after a short break, you know, we can't end this podcast without talking about Iran and the war. So we will check on what the latest is. Plus, we open up our reporters notebooks for Oent. That's ahead on Sources and Methods from npr.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

we're back with Lauren Frair and Tom Bowman. And Tom, I was thinking of the many threads I could ask you about regarding the war with Iran. Whether the ceasefire will hold or not, whether diplomacy talks will deliver a durable deal or not, whether the US will succeed in its stated goal of reining in Iran's nuclear program or not. All of those. Let's just go straight to the Strait of Hormuz. Is it open?

[Tom Bowman]

It's not open. It's not closed. It's somewhere in the middle, somewhere in the gray area. Now 40 ships today have gone through the strait. How do we know this is, according to the ship trackers that watch this stuff, about 40 ships. And mostly they're going through the pathway set up by the US that's along Oman, so pretty away from Iran. The US is still working on demining, but this area has been demined. But they're expanding their demining activities with ships, helicopters, drones and so forth. But they say we can demine this area in 30 days. I don't think that's likely. Former Navy officers I talk would say it's going to take least a couple of months to make that happen. So we're far from the 130 ships per day that were going through the straight of horror moves before the war started. And also the US says that we're doing it on our own. But also the Brits and the French have said we will take part too. The HMS Dragon is in the Arabian Sea. Keir Starmer, before he stepped down, said the HMS Dragon and also Sea drones will take part in this de mining activity. We haven't really seen anything on that yet, so that could happen in the coming weeks.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Lauren, what are you hearing about the UK's contribution to all of this? Because Keir Starmer, as we have noted, wanted to stay well away from this

[Lauren Frayer]

war, wanted to stay well away from the Iran war, but has used the contribution of this HMS Dragon, as I think a political tool to build goodwill with President Trump. And it's a little bit similar to the contribution by the UK to future peacekeepers in Ukraine. The UK says it will send peacekeepers to Ukraine once hostilities cease. The UK will also help de mine the Strait of Hormuz once hostilities cease. So that HMS Dragon, I just looked up the dates it deployed in early March, it crossed, it passed through the Suez Canal in May, and it's still just hanging out there waiting for one of these ceasefires to last long enough for it to get to work.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So it is not exactly racing full steam ahead for the Strait of Hormuz.

[Lauren Frayer]

I think it's sort of motoring, maybe.

[Tom Bowman]

No, I think it's hanging out in the Arabian Sea. There's no sense it's on a course for the Strait of Hormuz or off Oman.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

All right, with that, as always, we will end with osint. Open source intelligence, not secret yet telling details. We stumble on in our reporting. Tom, kick us off.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, first of all, there's very little information coming out of the Pentagon about the ceasefire, about how the war is going to. And that's been true for quite some time. The last Pentagon briefing we had was on May 5, some what, six weeks ago, and not only are journalists not getting much information, lawmakers aren't getting that much detail about what's going on with Demining the way ahead. Also, I learned that the Pentagon is not allowing any embeds. And I've done dozens of embeds that are allowed.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Just explain an embed.

[Tom Bowman]

An embed is when a reporter goes out with troops in the field, writes about what they're doing, what their policy is, are things working, not working, sometimes coming under fire. But since there's. We can't go anywhere with the troops now because they've stopped all embeds. So you couldn't get on a ship off Oman. You can't go to any of the bases in the Middle east, and I'm told you can't even go on training missions now. There are no embeds for training missions. Again, it's very controlled information or lack of information, and it Reminds me, back before the Iraq war, we had this briefing with this retired general by the name of Hal Moore. And I think some of our listeners would remember that name. He made his name in Vietnam, the first major battle of the Ia Drang Valley. They made a movie about this. We were soldiers once, and young. And also a book by the same name. And he met with a group of reporters, and he said, every place I went in Vietnam, I took reporters with me because the American people have a right to know what their sons are doing in their name. And I never forgot that. But that's all gone now.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I mean, just to underscore why this matters, you must have gone on, I don't know how many embeds in Iraq, in Afghanistan, different places.

[Tom Bowman]

My wife's from Oregon. We've been married 35 years. I think I spent more time in Afghanistan than Oregon than in Oregon.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So what's lost if you can't embed? I mean, you could fly to the Gulf tomorrow if you wanted to.

[Tom Bowman]

What's lost is a sense of, again, what these troops are doing in our name and also what the policy is. Does it work? Is it not working? When I was in Afghanistan, the best part of my career, by the way, you really got a sense of what was working, what was not working. And the soldiers and Marines, they'd be completely honest with you. One guy said, hey, Tom, this is my third tour in Afghanistan. I don't think these Afghan soldiers are ever going to get their act together. So again, it gives the reporters a real sense of what's going on. Not only Pentagon briefings, but in the field with the real soldiers, the grunts, to really get a sense of how things are going. That is lost now.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay, Lauren, you're Orson.

[Lauren Frayer]

Okay, so I'm going to tell you. I think you intelligence wonks know about acronyms, right? I'm going to tell you about some.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Is this a test?

[Lauren Frayer]

No.

[Rose Marley]

Okay.

[Lauren Frayer]

Yes. The acronym npr.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Non Proliferation. That's what comes to mind for me

[Lauren Frayer]

in every beat I've had. I work for npr, and yet up in Manchester this week, everybody's talking about npr, npr. I'm like, I'm so flattered. It's Northern Powerhouse Rail. It's one of Andy Burnham's key projects to bring more train service to the north of England. Incidentally, in my last beat, there was. I lived in India. NPR was the National Population Register. Horribly confusing newspaper headlines saying, NPR is doing this and this. And I thought it was all about me. It wasn't.

[Tom Bowman]

Can we get an NPR T Shirt from Britain.

[Lauren Frayer]

Absolutely. With a little train on it.

[Tom Bowman]

There you go.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

With a little train. All right. My Osint is I was at this cocktail reception the other night here in D.C. to mark the occasion of the upcoming 2026 NATO summit in Ankara in July. Cause that is kind of of crazy nightlife that we have here in D.C. in the summer months.

[Lauren Frayer]

Say hi to Keir Starmer there. It's his last thing you'll do in office.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

There were people from the British Embassy at this party. There were ambassadors walking around and canapes being passed. It was that type scene. A US Senator, specifically Democrat Chris Coons of Delaware, started telling me at this party about the importance of snog. So this is my OSN S N O G which by the way, Lauren, has a very specific meaning in Europe and in the UK where you are just explain. SNOG in Britain is it's more than a kiss.

[Lauren Frayer]

It's like a full makeout session.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

It's like a very non platonic kiss. So this is not what Chris Coons was talking about. I'm glad I learned that SNOG in his world means Senate NATO Observer Group, a bipartisan group of senators. He is a member. It's actually co chaired currently by Jean Shaheen of New Hampshire and Thom Tillis of North Carolina. And their mission is they monitor NATO and its budget and its military capabilities and they are trying to strengthen transatlantic bonds. So this came up because there is a SNOG delegation headed to Turkey next month for the NATO summit. Senator Coons will be there. It will be snog in action. So that's my challenge. I will leave you two with I

[Tom Bowman]

want that T shirt. I want that T shirt.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

That's a better T shirt. You can have a snog cap and a NPR train T shirt. Don't snog any of those senators. All right, that is it for today's episode. Thank you for listening. I have been speaking with NPR London correspondent Lauren Frair and Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Thank you.

[Tom Bowman]

You're welcome.

[Lauren Frayer]

Thank you so much.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And a note before we go. You have been hearing me all month long mention newsletters. That would be NPR journalism tailored to your interests right in your inbox. Whether you want the latest in pop culture or deep dive investigative reporting. We have a newsletter for you. You can check out the full [e-mail] newsletters I'm Mary Louise Kelly and we are back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.

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