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General Michael Claussen
I think that Europe has finally understood it's relevant that the US Demands a shift of burden in terms of financial commitments and that we have sort of heeded the call.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Here in the US we hear a lot about President Trump's open disdain for NATO and how his actions are reshaping the post war global order. What does that all look like from Europe today? Sweden's top general tells us that whatever the political tensions, military cooperation across the Atlantic runs deep and strong. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. This is Sources and Methods from npr. General Michael Claussen is Sweden's chief of defense and supreme commander of Sweden's armed forces and he's our guest for today's special episode. He is here in Washington this week for meetings. So we wandered over to the Embassy of Sweden for a chat. As always, we'll be back here again Thursday with our regular episode to talk through the week's biggest national security news. General, welcome. Nice to meet you.
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General Michael Claussen
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.
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Mary Louise Kelly
So let's get to it. Sweden joined NATO two years ago, right? Not a boring moment for the alliance?
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General Michael Claussen
No, not at all. And not a boring moment for Sweden either.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Well, I was going to say Sweden had maintained an official policy of neutrality for more than two centuries, since the days of Napoleon. So let me start by asking, how has joining NATO changed Sweden?
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General Michael Claussen
I think I would like to start with the fact that we entered into the partnership with NATO after the end of the Cold War. And that of course, changed a lot already at that time. So we have effectively been present with troops in all NATO led out of area operations from Western Balkans to Afghanistan. So getting used to work together with NATO forces and NATO allies in operations has been a feature for more than 25 years.
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Mary Louise Kelly
You were not strangers to NATO.
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General Michael Claussen
No, no, not at all. Not at all.
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Mary Louise Kelly
For Sweden's military, what has it meant? You're spending more in defence, expanding ranks.
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General Michael Claussen
Yeah, yeah. What does that look like? We have a clear political commitment to the Hague defence investment target of 5% and 3.5% hard coded for military spending. And this is something that the Government has really bought into, and they have a higher ambition than was actually set out in the Hague, that we should meet 3.5% at 2030, not 2035. So it's a steep curve. We, as many other European countries, downsized and decommissioned a lot of our military forces after the end of the Cold War. And I sometimes sarcastically refer to this as the eternal era of peace, which proved not to be.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Not so peaceful.
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General Michael Claussen
Not so peaceful and more of a fairy tale and a hope for something than reality. So now, obviously, we are expanding. We are filling up our storages. We are also trying to innovate our way into the future.
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Mary Louise Kelly
And just so that I understand, can you be specific about what it means to expand? Like, how many more troops, how many more boats? How are you thinking about it?
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General Michael Claussen
Yeah, we are expanding from approximately a small armed force of like 75,000 personnel to 140,000 till 2030, which is quite a high ambition. We have reinstated conscription. That's quite a few years ago in 2017, but the numbers increase. Recruiting is high, but of course, it's not that many years ago that we actually paid people to leave the armed forces. And that's the same segment of officers that I would now need to send to staff positions in the NATO command structure. So it's not without challenges, but I would say that it's going well. So within a year of NATO membership, we provided forces to the Baltic States, land forces, we provided air policing and air defence forces to support NATO's work in support of Ukraine. And we've been involved in NATO standing naval forces as well over the years. So I think we have set the tone and we have also made it clear that Sweden is a security provider. We are small, but we're effective and have an effective force, a modern force, and we want to be seen as a security provider and not as a consumer.
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Mary Louise Kelly
So let's go to some of the challenges facing the alliance today. I saw a comment you made back in January, so two months ago, where you said that you were not concerned about NATO's future. Has your optimism survived the intervening two months?
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General Michael Claussen
Yes, it has basically survived. I think it's important to zoom out a little bit and to look at NATO's history. There were immense problems in the 1960s, all the way up till the end of the 90s with France leaving. The military cooperation we have in the alliance had bilateral challenges between Turkey and Greece since 1952, but the alliance still works. Regardless of that. It's very impactful when there are tensions, transatlantic tensions, but basically I think that that Europe has finally understood that it's relevant that the US Demands a shift of burden in terms of financial commitments at the end of the day transatlantic. But also European security needs to be outbalanced by much more commitment from the European side and that we have sort of heeded the call.
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Mary Louise Kelly
You're sitting here in Washington, so I need to ask you about some of the recent comments about NATO from Washington and specifically from the White House. Last week, President Trump described the NATO alliance as a one way street. He said the US Spends billions to protect countries that will do nothing for America in a time of need. How do you react to that?
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General Michael Claussen
Well, of course it feels somewhat unfair because back in 2001, the 911 situation and I together with many of my countrymen, we have served in Afghanistan during tough times and based basically shouldering sort of the security challenges that were global but also in one way or another also were directed against the US So in that regard I think that we are better than that and I think that the alliance is still a valid role player in the transatlantic security and is a major best buddy also to
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Mary Louise Kelly
the US President Trump has been demanding that US Allies join the war in Iran and help secure the Strait of Hormuz. He called NATO countries cowards for refusing to pitch in his word. Will you pitch in? Will Sweden send warships to help the United States and Israel?
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General Michael Claussen
At the end of the day, this is a political question. Do we have capabilities? I guess yes, many of the allies do have capabilities, but it needs to be addressed also through the NATO channels to be dealt with politically. What kind of forces, for how long? How do we balance that together with other NATO commitments that all the 32 allies have concluded that these are priorities for the alliance right now. So if the current situation in the Middle east is brought into the framework of the alliance, I'm sure that the alliance will also be able to deal with it in one way or another also including to consider whether forces could be provided.
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Mary Louise Kelly
After a quick break, more of my conversation with the Supreme Commander of Sweden's armed forces. Stay with us for sources and methods.
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Mary Louise Kelly
This message comes from Carvana who makes buying and financing your next car easy. Thousands of vehicles terms up front and 100% online. Even get it delivered to your door. Buy your car the easy way with Carvana. Delivery fee may apply. Let me turn us to Ukraine specifically and how you see the future of the alliance there and how you see the future of US Cooperation, because that has come into question with President Trump back in his second term.
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General Michael Claussen
Yeah, right. I think that Ukraine is obviously a clear European concern. It's an integral part of European security. I think it's important to conclude that Russia's strategic objectives are not limited to parts of a couple of provinces. It's about erasing Ukraine from the map as a nation state and to introduce a buffer zone that in some ways also resembles the old Russian empire. It's not about launching massive Soviet style offensives into Western Europe, but it's about to establish this type of security buffer zone that they can influence and again, to impact the cohesion of the west in so many ways.
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Mary Louise Kelly
How's the war going in your estimation?
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General Michael Claussen
Well, I was there a couple of weeks ago and it was not a broken country. It's not a broken country.
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Mary Louise Kelly
What makes you say that?
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General Michael Claussen
Interaction with a lot of military commanders of different ranks in different locations and different roles, but also traveling those 3,000 kilometers through the country and meeting people. They have suffered through a very tough winter, with Russia particularly focusing on damaging the energy sector in a way that made people literally freeze and in some cases also freeze to death. But this country is remarkably strong and resilient for many reasons that we don't have time to dwell on right now. But I think it's important not to make Russia 10ft tall and it's important not to diminish Ukraine because it's a strong country with a strong military, a very innovative military. And from a Swedish point of view, we feel that it is important to continue to support in all the ways we can.
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Mary Louise Kelly
One more on Ukraine. You will be familiar, General, with the criticism of the US And Ukraine's other allies that Ukraine's allies have given it enough Military support, economic support to continue fighting, but not enough for it to win. We're now four years plus into this war.
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General Michael Claussen
Yes.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Is there some truth to that?
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General Michael Claussen
I believe it is. And especially from the beginning, I mean, the first year or so where nations were struggling, Western nations were struggling politically to come to a conclusion whether they would go all in. So the all in came eventually, but it was very late. And I think that the war could have come to another phase much quicker if the support would have been more substantial from the outset.
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Mary Louise Kelly
I guess the basic question prompted by all of this, given President Trump's comments about NATO that we've been talking about, given questions about the US's commitment to Ukraine and the fight there, if it came to it, could NATO stand on its own against Russia without the United States?
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General Michael Claussen
It's a tricky question because it's always. It depends on. Of course, there are scenarios where NATO could be extremely challenged without US capabilities. But I have very hard to see a situation where NATO would come to a situation of collective defense and the US would not be there in any capacity. I think Europe is on quite good foot. But of course it's needless to say that US is a really important ally and the burden shifting would also have to take place in an orderly way to make sure that we don't end up in a challenged security situation compared to now.
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Mary Louise Kelly
You just said that if push came to shove, you actually can't imagine that NATO would have to respond in a collective way without the United States. Greenland does that. How do you square what we saw unfolding earlier this year with American threats to take Greenland one way or the other? President Trump's words, with NATO as a
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General Michael Claussen
collective defence alliance, well, to be able to launch a collective response, all 32 allies have to be behind it. So NATO was not really a factor in that regard. You can question what effects it would have had on NATO politically. But nevertheless, I think also that NATO as a framework that also provided a kind of a solution to the challenges to the perceived security challenges, not only Greenland, but but Arctic as a whole, which I think is very easy for not at least Arctic nations like Sweden to buy into, because this is really a feature that we need to address collectively. And of course, I think we at the end of the day landed safely in using and implementing NATO as the security framework that it should be, that is addressing collective security challenges that that suits all the 32 allies.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Are you talking in part about NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte, who appeared to be the one who walked the US ambitions toward Greenland Back from a cliff.
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General Michael Claussen
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And of course, he was playing his role. But also the interlinkage to Sacer General Grinkovic and how Supreme Allied Commander Europe. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which is always an American. And how the idea of an Arctic sentry, a NATO activity, is not an operation per se, but it's an activity that sort of collects all the activities of the allies in the Arctic area of the alliance. Well, to provide security collectively in that regard. So I think this was a brilliant move.
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Mary Louise Kelly
One more on Greenland, which is part of the US reasoning that was laid out publicly for why the US wanted to control or wants to control Greenland, is that if the US doesn't control it, Russia will or China will. Do you buy that?
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General Michael Claussen
I think that the impact of Russia and China in the Arctic as a whole is definitely a security concern for all of us. And it also interlinks the perceptions and the ambitions and the focus on homeland security for the US with European security, and it binds us together. And I think it's important, especially now with the US focus on homeland security, etcetera, that we try to find new ways to not to disconnect, but to reconnect. And this is one area where I think it's important to really use as a driver for reconnection between, again, let's say, North American and Eurasian security.
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Mary Louise Kelly
So you're saying as Sweden looks even farther north to the Arctic, you see both risk, but also opportunity?
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General Michael Claussen
Oh, indeed, yes, absolutely.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Say more about that.
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General Michael Claussen
I see opportunity for increased security. And I see opportunity because obviously when the ice is. We can discuss lengthy why the ices are melting, but they are melting. And so that is not the question here. Now you have shipping lanes that can
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Mary Louise Kelly
go over the top of the world.
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General Michael Claussen
Shipping lanes will be cut by a third. So obviously there will be a lot of interest from different directions, but there is also quite substantial natural resources that could be reached in completely different ways that would be of interest to many nations. And natural resources can easily be securitized. And obviously we need to find ways to deal with that.
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Mary Louise Kelly
So is your sense, General, that the moment of high tension over Greenland, that it is behind us, that we can move on?
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General Michael Claussen
I hope so, at least. And I learned from a US colleague, actually, that hope is not a course of action. But in this regard, I believe that I hope that we have outbalanced and found a way where the alliance plays a crucial role in balancing security interests from the US side with sort of European interest in the Arctic as a whole.
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Mary Louise Kelly
So I'll bring us to a close by asking, you were saying as we sat down at the conference table here in the lovely Swedish embassy in Washington that you try to get to Washington once a year. So, yeah. Have conversations with counterparts take the temperature of what's going on here. I wonder, do you feel a sense of whiplash, General Clausen, landing in Washington in 2026, having conversations with an administration that sees so many issues central to your job, whether it's Ukraine or Greenland or the NATO alliance so differently from two years ago than the administration that was in the White House then?
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General Michael Claussen
Well, of course there is a difference, but I wouldn't necessarily call it a whiplash. There is more of a steady state in the military to military relations. And of course, the military to military relations are impacted by policies and changes to policies and politics. No question about that. But again, since this is the way how democracies work, we also have to adhere to changes to the different roles. And again, going back to what I mentioned about being in an alliance, that you actually have to respect both the ways and the means and the focus of other nations and finding ways not to disconnect and break, in this case, the alliance instead trying to be constructive and pragmatic and to some extent transactional to find new ways to cooperate. Because I'm a firm believer in transatlantic security and that we actually need each other.
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Mary Louise Kelly
Does it still feel like a two way street, the respect that constructed?
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General Michael Claussen
Yes. Yes, it does. With the fact that obviously, as we talked about just a few moments ago, that Europe needs to take more responsibility for our own conventional security. And again, we have heeded the call. We understand that. And we are investing and we are expanding and we are working hard to meet those requirements. Capability targets in NATO, for example, example, General Michael Claussen.
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Mary Louise Kelly
He is Sweden's chief of defense and supreme commander of Sweden's armed forces. Thank you for your time.
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General Michael Claussen
Thank you so much for having me.
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Mary Louise Kelly
A reminder, you can email us with your feedback and your questions at sources and methods, all1wordpr.org now make sure you join us again tomorrow. That's our regular Thursday episode with the biggest national security news of the week. In that episode, we're going to give you details on an upcoming virtual event we are hosting for NPR supporters, where you'll have a chance to join me and reporter Greg Myre live on Zoom for a discussion and Q and A. Invitations for that event are going out to NPR supporters this week. If that is, you watch your email. If not, you can sign up for npr.npr.org and then you will receive a link to register for the event by the end of the week again. Plus.NPR.org I'm Mary Louise Kelly. Thanks for listening to sources and methods from npr. This message comes from NPR sponsor Charles Schwab with its original podcast on Investing. Each week you'll get thoughtful, in depth analysis of both the stock and the bond markets. Listen today and subscribe@schwab.com oninvesting or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [23:52]
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- [24:23]
Mary Louise Kelly
message comes from the John D. And Catherine T. MacArthur foundation, recognizing extraordinarily creative individuals whose ideas, solutions and discoveries expand people's expectations of what's possible. Macfound.org.