Podcast Summary: Sources & Methods – "Tradecraft and secrets of a CIA analyst-turned novelist"

Host: Mary Louise Kelly (NPR)
Guest: David McCloskey, ex-CIA analyst and spy novelist
Episode Date: September 29, 2025

Overview

In this special episode of Sources & Methods, Mary Louise Kelly sits down with former CIA analyst and acclaimed spy novelist David McCloskey to explore how real-life intelligence work informs his fiction—most recently, his new novel "The Persian," about the shadow war between Israel and Iran. The conversation delves into the authenticity of spy tradecraft in fiction, surprising revelations from the CIA's censorship process, and uncanny overlaps between McCloskey's novels and real-world events. The episode offers a rare glimpse into the intersection of national security, espionage, and storytelling.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Authentic Tradecraft in Fiction

Timestamp: 01:45 – 02:39

• McCloskey's Approach: He grounds his stories in regions he knows, striving for authentic depiction of intelligence officers (whether Israeli or Iranian) and the operational and linguistic details of real tradecraft.
• "I try for that setting to be as authentic as possible... And I dug up characters who are, you know, real intelligence officers. Or at least I'm trying to depict them as authentically as possible." — David McCloskey (01:56)

2. Civilian vs. Insider Knowledge

Timestamp: 02:39 – 03:35

• McCloskey gives examples of details civilians wouldn’t know—for instance, how Mossad would recruit and conduct surveillance in Iran, or the specific technologies and evidence they’d target.
• His depictions are grounded in actual intelligence methods and built on both his experience and direct conversations with CIA and Mossad personnel.

3. Navigating CIA Censorship – The Publication Review Board

Timestamp: 03:35 – 05:55

• Every manuscript McCloskey writes goes through CIA review.
• He expresses surprise at what gets cleared—remarking that sometimes highly specific operational details ("granular detail on how to construct an improvised explosive device") make it through, while innocuous items (such as the name of an internal CIA instant messaging program) are redacted.
• "I'm oftentimes frankly, a little bit surprised at what can get through. But in this case... there actually is a lot out there... The reality is almost stranger than fiction." — McCloskey (04:05)
• "They deleted a reference to an instant messaging program used at the CIA... But then they left in, of course, relatively granular detail on how to construct an improvised explosive device. So it's oftentimes hard... to know exactly what will... be redacted." — McCloskey (05:06)

4. When Fiction Meets Reality: Predicting the News

Timestamp: 07:27 – 08:55

• Recent real-life conflict between Israel and Iran eerily mirrored the events in "The Persian," though McCloskey began work before this summer’s escalation.
• In his last book ("Moscow X"), he had to rewrite plots as the Ukraine invasion broke; this time, he "white-knuckled" through without changing the story despite breaking news.
• "The book really tries to kind of scrape beneath the kind of overt conflict and get into the heart of the shadow war between Israel and Iran." — McCloskey (08:18)

5. Reality Inspiring Fiction: Real Operations, Fictional Narratives

Timestamp: 09:16 – 10:14

• For example, the Israeli assassination of Iran's nuclear program chief with a robotic machine gun is a direct inspiration for the book’s opening sequence.
• "A few years ago, the Israelis assassinated the head of Iran's nuclear program using a remote operated robotic machine gun. And that in effect is the sequence that opens this novel, 'The Persian.'" — McCloskey (09:46)

6. Mossad's Unique Methods: Lack of Diplomatic Cover

Timestamp: 10:14 – 12:24

• Unlike the CIA or MI6, Mossad can’t usually operate under diplomatic cover due to a lack of embassies in neighboring states, creating a distinctive, improvisational approach.
• Mossad teams are "cobbled together, surged to where they are needed, then disbanded when the work is done."
• "The plane is built as it flies. Is that true? And if so, how does it impact Mossad tradecraft?" — Kelly (10:56)
• "You get the sense... instead of having sort of a persistent, like a country team... that when a problem is identified, a team is sort of put together to then deal with that problem. And that's a very different kind of mentality, I think..." — McCloskey (11:48)

7. On Writing – and Predicting – the Future

Timestamp: 12:24 – 13:32

• McCloskey’s next novel explores the US-UK "special relationship," stress-testing trust between the CIA and British intelligence—possibly forecasting another layered, timely narrative.
• "I started the book with the goal of putting as much stress on the special relationship between the US and the UK as I could to see if I could break it..." — McCloskey (12:52)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "Once you have the bones of that story, it's almost like, you know, you don't need to make anything up. It's like the Israelis and the Iranians have already written the bones of an insane spy novel." — David McCloskey (04:22)
• "Mirror imaging the CIA onto Mossad just didn't work." — McCloskey (12:15)
• "Trepidation might be well founded... the next one is a story set between Washington and London... to see if I could break [the special relationship] and get the CIA to the point where it might spy on the Brits and the Brits to the point where they might spy on us." — McCloskey (12:36)

Timestamps of Important Segments

• 01:45 – McCloskey on authentic depiction of spies in fiction
• 02:39 – Real surveillance tradecraft made fictional
• 03:35 – On the CIA's Publication Review Board and censorship surprises
• 07:27 – Real-world Israel-Iran war mirrors novel's plot
• 09:46 – Real-life Mossad operation inspires the book’s opening
• 10:58 – Mossad’s improvisational style without embassy cover
• 12:36 – Preview of McCloskey’s next novel targeting US-UK relations

Tone & Style

The conversation is candid, insightful, and occasionally wry; both Kelly and McCloskey display a shared appreciation for the strange overlap between spycraft and storytelling. McCloskey is forthright about the boundaries—legal, ethical, and creative—that shape his novels, while Kelly teases out the writer's unique challenges translating the world of intelligence to the page.

For listeners and readers alike, this episode is a must for those interested in the real-world underpinnings of spy fiction, the quirks of intelligence culture, and the ever-blurring line between imagination and reality in the national security sphere.