Episode Overview

Podcast: Sources & Methods
Episode Title: Undercover for the holidays: Some of our favorite spy novels
Date: December 29, 2025
Host: Mary Louise Kelley, NPR

This special holiday episode takes a break from the usual national security headlines to explore espionage fiction. Host Mary Louise Kelley is joined by colleagues Andrew Limbong (NPR Culture/Books desk) and Greg Myre (NPR National Security) to discuss the enduring appeal, evolution, and realism of spy novels. The episode features a conversation with bestselling author Daniel Silva as well as reflections on classic and contemporary works, the intersection of real-world intelligence and fiction, and memorable picks for winter reading.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Enduring Appeal of Spy Fiction

• Mary Louise paints the classic scene: "Is there anything more delicious than the prospect of a cold winter's night, a roaring fire, and on your lap, a good spy novel to crack open. Okay, maybe you could add a tumbler of scotch to this picture, or peppermint tea? I'll go with a nibble of good Swiss chocolate. Pick your poison." (01:43)
• The episode frames spy novels as the perfect holiday escape—thrilling, evocative, and timeless.

2. Interview with Daniel Silva: The Craft & Evolution of Espionage Novels

• The "Greats" and Their Relevance

  • Silva hails John le Carré and Graham Greene as the genre's foundational authors.
    • "You know, The Spy who Came in from the Cold is arguably the greatest spy novel ever written. I would say that. And I think it holds up and it's just an amazing piece of work. And then I guess...The Quiet American has elements of espionage to it and it's just one of my absolute favorite novels." (02:58)
  • Despite changes in technology and global politics, Silva and Kelley agree these writers remain relevant.

• Human Intelligence in a Digital Age

  • Silva on the continued importance of HUMINT:
    • "They're in the business of human intelligence. ... An electronic intercept... might be able to tell you what's going to happen tomorrow or happen today, but you know, human sources help you sort of look over the horizon and tell you what's going to happen, you know, weeks and months from now." (03:46)
  • MI6 is still considered the gold standard for running human spies.

• Quality Writing Transcends Genre

  • Silva: "Because they're both great writers and it's often (an) overlooked element... Yes, there are some really beautiful writers out there that write genre fiction, but those guys are incredible writers. I mean, unparalleled in many respects." (05:27)

• On Reading within the Genre

  • Silva seldom reads spy fiction himself, preferring literary fiction:
    • "I've always said that I'm sort of a literary novelist posing as a thriller writer." (06:03)
    • Cites influences Anne Tyler and Muriel Spark.

• Should Spy Fiction Reflect the Times?

  • Kelley notes the trend of spy fiction targets changing with geopolitical realities—Russians in Cold War/post-2010s, terrorism post-9/11.
  • Silva explains his Gabriel Allon series as a chronicle of the last 25 years in actual global conflict: "It started with the failure of the Camp David peace accords, and it goes through the war on terror years, the rise of Russia. I think I was ahead of the curb on that..." (07:09)
  • Allon's evolution: from assassin/intelligence officer to art restorer.

3. Classic Spy Authors: Are They Still the Best?

• Greg Myre: Le Carré's work stands as great literature that happens to deal with spying. Shares a story about Le Carré consulting a real-life lawyer friend to ensure his "odious lawyer" characters felt authentic (10:38–11:46).
• Andrew Limbong: Points out the genre vs. literary fiction debate, noting Silva's slight "snobbery" on contemporaries and the burden modern authors have, writing in le Carré's shadow (11:57–12:51).

4. Literary vs. Genre Fiction: Why the Divide?

• Kelley: Questions the immediate association of spy novels with lower literary quality.
  • "It suggests that most spy thrillers are poorly written. And even if it's true that most spy thrillers are poorly written, I mean..." (13:04)
• Limbong: Observes that, statistically, most books aren’t great, regardless of genre; his own reading habits reflect a drift from genre to literary and back, driven by life circumstances.

Quote:
Limbong: "I need a dude who's running away from another guy with a gun or is chasing another dude with a gun. I need, you know, some propulsive elements to it." (14:27)

5. Contemporary Authors and Realism in the Genre

• Greg Myre:

  • Recommends David Ignatius for his fun, well-researched, and timely novels often grounded in current international security challenges (e.g., Phantom Orbit about satellite warfare):
    • "My sweet spot really needs two criteria. One, it just has to be fun to read. ... But second, ... I want stuff that tends to be covering current events and maybe telling me stuff that I don't know, and I find better than anybody else I've come across. David Ignatius does this..." (14:57)
    • Links The Increment by Ignatius to its prescience about the Stuxnet cyberattack on Iran (16:53).

• Importance of Realism:

  • Both Myre and Kelley stress the need for accuracy in tradecraft, especially for those who cover national security professionally. Kelley shares her pet peeve with misuse of jargon:
    • "If the writer calls that person an agent, a CIA agent, I immediately roll my eyes and just start questioning everything else they're writing..." (19:09)
  • Kelley recounts drawing on her own reporting in Pakistan as material for her first spy novel.

6. The Delicate Line—How Real Can a Spy Novel Be?

• Segment with David McCloskey (CIA-analyst-turned-novelist):

  1. Everything he writes is reviewed by the CIA’s Publication Review Board (23:32).
  2. McCloskey is often surprised by what the board chooses to redact—sometimes detailed operational passages remain, but innocuous-sounding specifics (like the actual vendor of a messaging program) are excised.
     • "They deleted a reference to an instant messaging program used at the CIA...it was the specific name of the vendor." (24:15)
  3. Discusses the challenge: "At times, I was tempted to tone it down so my editor wouldn't think I was making anything up that's too crazy." (23:32)

• Greg Myre: Notes McCloskey writes credibly about places he's never personally visited by consulting sources and through research—sometimes necessary for ex-CIA authors unable to travel to certain countries (25:04).

• Kelley: Even class assignments by CIA employees at Georgetown are sent through agency review, highlighting how deeply review is embedded in the system (27:12).

7. Other Author & Book Picks

• Andrew Limbong: Childhood favorite: The Bourne Identity (Robert Ludlum).
  • "I felt so, like, moved by the momentum and the violence and the speed of the book. It was just, like, a really thrilling read." (28:21)
• Greg Myre: Returns to Graham Greene and John le Carré for their personal background in intelligence; notes best spy fiction often written by those with direct NatSec experience (28:32).
• Mary Louise Kelley: Shout-out to Stella Rimington, the first female head of MI5 and author of the Liz Carlyle novels—a rare mention of a woman in the very male-dominated espionage genre (30:27).
• Recognition that most of the discourse has focused on Anglo-American writers; listeners are encouraged to submit international and non-English-language recommendations.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I've always said that I'm sort of a literary novelist posing as a thriller writer."
  — Daniel Silva (06:03)

• "You know, The Spy who Came in from the Cold is arguably the greatest spy novel ever written. ... And then I guess ... The Quiet American has elements of espionage to it and it's just one of my absolute favorite novels."
  — Daniel Silva (02:58)

• "If the writer calls that person an agent, a CIA agent, I immediately roll my eyes and just start questioning everything else they're writing..."
  — Mary Louise Kelley (19:09)

• "I need a dude who's running away from another guy with a gun or is chasing another dude with a gun."
  — Andrew Limbong (14:27)

• "My sweet spot really needs two criteria. One, it just has to be fun to read. ... But second, ... I want stuff that tends to be covering current events and maybe telling me stuff that I don't know, and I find better than anybody else I've come across. David Ignatius does this..."
  — Greg Myre (14:57)

• "At times, I was tempted to tone it down so my editor wouldn't think I was making anything up that's too crazy."
  — David McCloskey (23:32)

Key Timestamps for Segments

• [01:43] Mary Louise Kelley sets the cozy spy novel holiday scene.
• [02:58] Daniel Silva on his picks for greatest spy novels.
• [03:46] Silva on the primacy of human intelligence in modern espionage.
• [05:27] Why Le Carré and Greene stand above the rest.
• [06:03] Silva on literary vs. genre fiction.
• [14:27] Limbong on the pace and appeal of modern thrillers.
• [14:57] Myre champions David Ignatius for current-events-driven spy fiction.
• [19:09] Kelley (pet peeve) on misuse of CIA jargon in fiction.
• [23:32] McCloskey, ex-CIA author, on publication review and balancing reality with fiction.
• [28:21] Limbong on the thrill of reading Ludlum's The Bourne Identity.
• [30:27] Kelley spotlights Stella Rimington, MI5 head and novelist.

Additional Recommendations

• Phantom Orbit by David Ignatius (satellite espionage)
• The Increment by David Ignatius (pre-Stuxnet Iran nuclear ops)
• The Persian by David McCloskey (modern Middle East intrigue)
• Liz Carlyle series by Stella Rimington (female MI5 protagonist)
• The Terminal List by Jack Carr (propulsive modern thriller)

Listener Engagement

Mary Louise Kelley invites listeners to submit recommendations, particularly from women and from non-Anglophone authors, to enrich the espionage fiction conversation. Contact: sourcesandmethodspr.org.

Conclusion

This episode is a love letter to spy novels, blending nostalgia for the classics with curiosity about today's increasingly complex, tech-driven stories. Expert guests reflect on the demands of realism, the intersection of lived intelligence experience and fiction, and the question of whether great genre writing can ever truly be "literary." Fans and newcomers alike are sure to find something enticing for their next cold night read.