U.S. vs. Israel on endgame / Battlefield tech / Wartime censorship

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Sources & Methods (NPR)

Episode: U.S. vs. Israel on endgame / Battlefield tech / Wartime censorship

Date: March 12, 2026
Host: Mary Louise Kelly
Guests/Correspondents: Tom Bowman (Pentagon correspondent), Daniel Estrin (International correspondent, Tel Aviv), with a segment from Richard Haass (Council on Foreign Relations)

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Episode Overview

This episode examines three intertwined themes in the latest Middle East conflict:

1. The divergent endgame visions between the U.S. and Israel regarding war with Iran.
2. How battlefield technology—especially drones, cyber, and psychological warfare—has transformed this war.
3. The limitations and impact of wartime censorship and information control, affecting both reporting and public understanding.

The discussion draws on frontline reporting, Pentagon and Israeli military sources, and includes a look at how media narratives are shaped and weaponized during wartime.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How This War is Being Fought—Changing Tech and Tactics

(00:19 - 08:37)

• Living Under Fire: Daniel Estrin describes the constant threat in Tel Aviv, including missile alerts and the exhaustion civilians face. He contrasts the Israeli experience with the even greater dislocation in Lebanon and Iran.

  • [00:34] “Some people sleeping on the floor of a bunker in Israel, nothing compared to the 800,000 or so people in Lebanon who have left their homes, many of them sleeping in stadiums or on the streets...” – Daniel Estrin

• The Drone Arms Race:

  • Iran’s effective use of Shahed drones has complicated air defense for the U.S. and its allies. Drones are small, numerous, and increasingly difficult to counter.
  • [02:49] “There are so many drones, Shahed drones, they're small, they're fast, you can swarm them. It's hard to hit every single one. So some of them are getting through.” – Tom Bowman
  • The Ukrainian conflict has become a proving ground for drone warfare, influencing tactics and technological sharing with the U.S.
    • [03:34] “I'm told every day, 6,000 drones go back and forth between Russia and Ukraine... Ukrainians are changing their software every few days.” – Tom Bowman
  • U.S. engineers have reverse-engineered Iranian drones, now producing their own variants.

• Cyber and Psychological Operations:

  • Israel leverages AI and cyber tactics to build massive target banks and employs deception and psychological warfare.
  • Examples include faking preparations to mislead Iran and intimidating enemies by emailing videos of strikes.
    • [05:30] “Another tactic he said they used was making sure that Israel's military generals didn't have their cars parked in their normal parking spots at military headquarters the night of the strike, in case anyone Iranians were watching.” – Daniel Estrin
    • [05:50] “Israel bombed the notorious Evin prison in Tehran... they actually sent videos of the bombing to Iranian officials. Basically, the message being, you're not as strong as you think.” – Daniel Estrin

• Media As A Tool of Psychological Warfare:

  • Both Israel and the U.S. use public messaging, video releases, and narratives to boost public morale and deterrence.
    • [07:09] “I think the psychological warfare goes both ways, and we in the media are used as a tool here... it helps boost Israel's deterrence.” – Daniel Estrin
    • [07:43] “The Pentagon is putting out these rah rah videos with Defense Secretary Pete Heg says. So, yeah, they're also sending this to the American public and others. This is what we're doing. We are, quote, winning.” – Tom Bowman

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2. Fog of War, Censorship, and Information Gaps

(08:37 - 17:18)

• Tragic Targeting Errors:

  • The bombing of an Iranian girls' school by apparent U.S. Tomahawks highlights the hazards of targeting based on outdated maps and intelligence.
    • [10:08] “It was old information. It was an old target that they assumed was part of this military facility. And in fact it was not. It was a girls school.” – Tom Bowman

• Censorship & Control of Casualty Numbers:

  • Both U.S. and Israeli militaries restrict detailed info on casualties and infrastructure damage. Reports are sparse; public and legislative bodies receive little transparency.
    • [11:48] “They haven't been releasing a lot of information... Even Capitol Hill is not getting a lot of information about the number of wounded or seriously wounded. I'm told the number is actually higher...” – Tom Bowman
  • In Israel, a military censorship unit prevents public acknowledgment of military site hits or Iron Dome performance details.
    • [14:41] “We don't have that information. Israel has a military censorship unit and they censor that kind of information. They say…they don't want to help Iran improve its aim.” – Daniel Estrin
  • Similar lack of transparency noted in Pentagon briefings.
    • [13:29] “The Pentagon had many more briefings and Congress got a lot more briefings than they're getting now…” – Tom Bowman

• Open Source Constraints:

  • Journalists have used commercial satellite imagery (Planet Labs) to fill information gaps, but the company has introduced a 14-day delay on images from conflict zones after consulting with governments, limiting independent monitoring.
    • [16:30] “The reason that they're doing this delay is they don't want to help Iran target NATO personnel, civilians, allied countries...this will be a huge setback...for journalists, for researchers...” – Daniel Estrin

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3. War Goals and Divergent Endgames—U.S. vs Israel

(18:55 - 22:26)

• Unclear Objectives and Diverging Interests:

  • Israeli officials believe they can “decimate Iran’s military power in about three weeks,” but operate as if any day could be the last due to U.S. (specifically President Trump’s) ability to halt operations unilaterally.
    • [19:25] “Israel's goal is maximize the damage it can do to Iran's capabilities until Trump pulls the plug. The senior Israeli military official I spoke with earlier said they are working under the assumption that every day is their last...” – Daniel Estrin
  • U.S. rhetoric suggests victory will be declared soon, but there’s little clarity on the actual definition of success or an exit plan.
    • [21:16] “Is it possible, Tom, that the White House is being deliberately, intentionally fuzzy about what is the endgame? Because it leaves room for them to claim victory wherever this lands?” – Mary Louise Kelly
    • [21:28] “That's possible, that you can basically declare victory and go home, but what have you achieved?” – Tom Bowman
  • Daniel Estrin asserts Israeli officials unanimously agree that the war’s endpoint is at President Trump’s discretion.
    • [22:15] “I think it's very clear to every expert that I've spoken with and military officials that once Trump says this is over, it's over.” – Daniel Estrin

• Public Perception and Political Messaging:

  • Early wartime unity and public support in Israel is now shifting to skepticism about end goals and war aims.
    • [19:25] “But you are seeing a change now. And you're hearing Israeli columnists and experts publicly saying, what are the goals of this war? What is the end goal?” – Daniel Estrin

• Historical Comparisons (with Richard Haass, [17:46]):

  • Richard Haass draws parallels to Iraq War planning failures, highlighting a lack of postwar planning.
    • [17:46] “We did not do nearly enough planning for the aftermath...I'll be honest with you, I don't even get a sense they did the most rudimentary of planning.” – Richard Haass

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4. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the limitations of media in modern conflict:

• [08:37] “You do not have independent reporters on the ground in Iran...You really need to be on the ground in this case.” – Tom Bowman

On psychological warfare via media:

• [07:09] “The psychological warfare goes both ways, and we in the media are used as a tool here...” – Daniel Estrin

On the challenge for journalists:

• [08:24] “We also provide that context. This is how Israel is fighting its war with a lot of very fancy deception tactics. And it also benefits from that kind of image out there.” – Daniel Estrin

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5. OSINT Segment – Signals from the Battlefield

(23:42 - 25:52)

• Symbolism in Leaders’ Messaging:

  • Estrin noticed Netanyahu's deliberate photo with a WWII history book, likening Israel’s current fight with Trump to the WWII Allied campaign.
    • [23:42] “Netanyahu has always seen himself as a kind of Churchill figure...This is the war that he and President Trump are fighting now, a war that he sees as similar to the Allied powers fighting the Nazis in World War II.” – Daniel Estrin

• Wounded U.S. Troops and Hospital Preparation:

  • U.S. military hospitals in Germany are clearing beds, anticipating wounded from the Mideast.
    • [25:11] “We are now shifting labor and delivery services...to free up some bed space for wounded Americans coming back from the Middle East. And I'm told already more than three dozen wounded Americans have gone through Landsdale Hospital.” – Tom Bowman

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Important Timestamps

• 00:19 – 02:49: Living under fire in Israel; early discussion on the missile and drone threat.
• 03:34 – 04:32: The drone arms race and U.S.-Ukraine cooperation.
• 04:45 – 07:34: Israeli cyber and psychological warfare strategies, including media manipulation.
• 08:37 – 10:44: Reporting limitations, tragic targeting errors, and fog of war.
• 11:48 – 14:41: Pentagon casualty reporting, infrastructure damage, and comparison to prior conflicts.
• 16:30 – 17:18: Planet Labs restricts satellite imagery, further obscuring war’s reality.
• 18:55 – 22:26: U.S.-Israel tension on war goals, shifting Israeli public mood, and who controls “the end.”
• 23:42 – 25:52: OSINT: Netanyahu’s messaging, wounded U.S. troops, and a sidebar on Venezuela.

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Tone and Style

• Unvarnished, pragmatic: Frequent acknowledgment of information gaps, skepticism toward official narratives.
• Cautious but insightful: Efforts to fact-check, double-source, and provide broader context.
• Analytical: Drawing historical parallels, considering both technological and human impacts of the war.

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For Your Radar—Summing Up

This episode is a vital analysis for those interested in the intersection of military technology, strategy, and media in 21st-century conflict. It reveals how modern war is fought as much with information—and its absence—as with rockets and drones. The shifting goals, blurry endgames, and increasing opacity add up to a war whose consequences remain as unpredictable as its outcome.

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Most Memorable Quote:

“Every bit of information someone tells us, there's a reason they're telling us that. And we report the facts.”
– Daniel Estrin (08:02)

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For questions or tips, contact [e-mail].

Transcript

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[Daniel Estrin]

The senior Israeli military official I spoke with said they are working under the assumption that every day is their last and that Trump may wake up tomorrow and say, time's up.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

President Trump. Trump says there's practically nothing left to target in Iran. Are the US And Israel winning the war, or is the White House looking for an off ramp? This is Sources and Methods from npr. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. If you are new here, welcome. Our name, sources and Methods is a term you may know from the intelligence world. It speaks to how we know what we know. And you'll hear us walk through that each Thursday as I discuss the week's biggest national security stories with NPC working their sources here in Washington and around the world. This week, I am here in the newsroom along with NPR Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman. Howdy, Tom.

[Tom Bowman]

Good to be with you.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And out in the world, NPR international correspondent Daniel Estrin. He's in Tel Aviv. Hey there, Daniel.

[Daniel Estrin]

Hey, Mary Louise.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So let me note, we are taping this at 5pm your time Thursday. Daniel, 11am for Tom and me here on the East Coast. Daniel, have you slept at all in the coming up on two weeks since

[Daniel Estrin]

this war began, I've had some rough nights, for sure. The other night I think I was woken up three times by missile alerts and booms. But I consider myself lucky. I sleep in a fortified safe room. I know people who have gotten a lot less sleep than I have. They have had to get out of their bed or walk down to the basement shelter in the middle of the night multiple times. Some people sleeping on the floor of a bunker in Israel, nothing compared to the 800,000 or so people in Lebanon who have left their homes, many of them sleeping in stadiums or on the

[Mary Louise Kelly]

streets, not to mention the many people in Iran who have been displaced or endangered by everything happening here. Okay, so we're gonna get in a second into the big questions this war is raising. Among them, what's the end goal? That is still murky to a lot of us. But I wanna take note right here at the top of how this war is being fought, because the technology does feel really different than if this war had unfolded a decade ago. For example, Tom, you and I have spent a fair bit of time recently on this podcast talking drones how they are changing warfare. Iran is using them very effectively in this war.

[Tom Bowman]

No, they are indeed. And Iran has many, many thousands of shahed drones and they're using them, as you say, effectively. They killed six American soldiers at a facility, Kuwait. The US is rushing air defenses, anti drone technology and attack drones to the region. But the bottom line is this. There are so many drones, shahed drones, they're small, they're fast, you can swarm them. It's hard to hit every single one. So some of them are getting through well.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And it's been fascinating to watch. It's almost like an arms race unfolding between this war, between the ongoing war in Ukraine with Iran and Russia and the US and Ukraine and all these trying to just stay one step ahead of each other with drones.

[Tom Bowman]

No, there's no question about that, especially in Ukraine. This is really the first drone war in Ukraine. And I'm told every day 6,000 drones go back and forth between Russia and Ukraine, and Ukraine into Russia. And every several days Ukrainians are changing their software and their drones. They are the masters of drones as we speak. But it is changing their lives.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And the US is tapping them, saying, hey, help us share your expertise. How do you do what you do so we can apply it in this.

[Tom Bowman]

Ukrainians are coming to the United States helping the Americans with drone technology, with tactics. You know what's really amazing is the Americans got a hold of one of these shahed drones in Ukraine. The Ukrainians turned it over to the Americans and they actually re engineered the shahed drone at this company in Arizona. Now they're cranking out basically re engineered shaheds and, and they're calling them Lucas.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Daniel, Israel is a player with drones. But I want to ask you about a different technology that Israel is using to target Iran. Walk us through the cyber war that Israel is waging.

[Daniel Estrin]

Yeah, it's, it's Israel, it's the U.S. it's also Iran. They're all fighting, maybe even more than ever before, out in the open and on this kind of hybrid battlefield, a battlefield that combines the physical and the digital world. So this involves, for instance, Israel is believed to have used AI to synthesize billions of data points, data that they collected, Israeli intelligence agencies collected in Iran in order to build a bank of targets in Iran. It's also combining the cyber world with this very ancient art form in warfare of deceiving your enemies. And Israel's done a lot of that.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Talk to me like, what does that actually look like? Give me an example.

[Daniel Estrin]

I spoke to a senior military official in Israel's planning and Operations Directorate in the military headquarters, who gave me a few details. He told me that Israel assumed that Iran had access to Chinese satellite imagery spying on Israel. And so the US amassed their warplanes in southern Israel in the days before the strike, trying to distract Iran from what was really going on, which was Israel planning that surprise blitz from a base in northern Israel. Another tactic he said they used was making sure that Israel's military generals didn't have their cars parked in their normal parking spots at military headquarters the night of the strike, in case anyone Iranians were watching. So there's that, and then there's psychological warfare that Israel has been employing. In last year's Israeli war in Iran, Israel bombed the notorious even prison in Tehran. And this official told me that after they did that, they actually sent videos of the bombing to Iranian officials. Basically, the message being, you're not as strong as you think, so intimidating them.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

It's also fascinating, I'm thinking as we speak on a podcast titled Sources and Methods, because, you know, to your point, Daniel, about psychological warfare and deceiving your enemy, should they be talking to us about it? Should they be telling you what they're doing, or does that risk burning? So, I mean, I'm sure they've thought about the calculation of using the media to. To help get the message out about how they're waging this war. But it's really fascinating, like.

[Daniel Estrin]

Oh, I think it's actually the very opposite, Mary Louise. I think the psychological warfare goes both ways, and we in the media are used as a tool here to get this message out, primarily for Israel to brag about this to their own people. It helps boost public opinion about the war and that it's going great. It helps boost that confidence. It helps boost Israel's deterrence.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

To be clear, we're not mouthpieces here for Israel's military or any other. But it is true that the messaging matters hugely in this war.

[Tom Bowman]

And along those lines, of course, the Central Command is putting out these videos of Iranian targets getting hit. The Pentagon is putting out these rah rah videos with Defense Secretary Pete Heg says. So, yeah, they're also sending this to the American public and others. This is what we're doing. We are, quote, winning.

[Daniel Estrin]

I just want to say one thing on that, because absolutely, we're not mouthpieces. I think we. We all know as journalists when we're reporting on war, every bit of information someone tells us there's a reason they're telling us that. And we report the facts. And these. This is what's happening? This is.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And try to double source and triple source and fact check what we're being told. Yeah, yeah.

[Daniel Estrin]

So we, we also provide that context. This, this is how Israel is fighting its war with a lot of very fancy deception tactics. And it also benefits from, from that kind of image out there.

[Tom Bowman]

And I'd like to say too, that what's different here is you do not have independent reporters on the ground in Iran. We don't have that. You know, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan. You could get a sense of what's really going on by being on the ground and not relying on a government or videos or tweets to tell you what's going on. You really need to be on the ground in this case.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

You're just not speaking of information or lack thereof in a war. You know, we've been talking about high tech warfare. It's only as good as the maps that a military can use to target its adversary. And that brings us to the horrific bombing of an Iranian girls school. According to Iranian state Media, at least 165 people were killed among those many children. Tom, we are learning more about what may have happened and who's responsible.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, our colleague Jeff Brumfiel was the one who broke this story. And what the Pentagon does in a situation like this say, okay, we'll do an inquiry. Okay, were we around this area at the time of this attack? Were we focusing on this area? Yes or no? Well, answer was yes. And then they do what's called an assessment. Okay, what information do we have about what happened at that target? Maybe pieces of missile that were being displayed. And then they go, also, don't they

[Mary Louise Kelly]

presumably have the maps that they were using to target in the first place?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, what happened here was it was old information. It was an old target that they assumed was part of this military facility. And in fact it was not. It was a girls school. So now we're at the point of the inquiry. Basically said yes, looks like it was us Tomahawk fired. Now what they're doing is a formal investigation. It's called a 15 6. They will talk to the trigger pullers, the planners, the commanders, everybody that was involved in this to try to figure out how this happened. That's where we are now. And that can take many months.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Many months. I was going to ask the timeline. Okay, we're going to take a break. When we come back, we'll dig into what Tom and Daniel are hearing from their sources about the damage that Iran has been able to inflict on the U.S. and Israel. That's ahead on sources and methods from NPR.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

Today we're back and we're going to talk about the fog of war. Iran was attacked. It is fighting back, but it's been hard to measure, hard to get a sense of casualty numbers that Iran is inflicting or how much dam Iran has managed to inflict on US Military targets in the Gulf. Tom, start with troops with casualties. What has the Pentagon released?

[Tom Bowman]

They haven't been releasing a lot of information. First of all, there were six soldiers killed at that facility in Kuwait. Another soldier was killed at a Saudi air base. He was hit. The Pentagon says roughly 140 or so have been hit. Most of Those, more than 100 have been returned to duty. They're saying eight are seriously wounded. The others, you know, I think have less serious injuries. But we're not getting a lot of information. Even Capitol Hill is not getting a lot of information about the number of wounded or seriously wounded. I'm told the number is actually higher by talking to folks on Capitol Hill.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

What about physical infrastructure damage to U.S. targets in the region?

[Tom Bowman]

Well, besides this facility in Kuwait, which is destroyed, you also have radar facilities in some of the Middle Eastern countries, US Facilities in Bahrain. They hit this radome which looks like a big golf ball and they have antennae inside that was destroyed. Again, they're not really being forthcoming on the amount of destruction to US Sites. Now, the New York Times put out a story saying from satellite imagery they that 11 U.S. facilities in the Middle east have been hit by Iran, but not sure exactly the scope of the damage yet.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And when you say the Pentagon has not been that forthcoming, how standard is that? Like, how does that track with other conflicts that you've covered? Because I can imagine that there would be a need for. Let's verify. Let's wait until we can triple confirm this before we put public information out there.

[Tom Bowman]

Well, again, you know, back then we had American reporters on the ground seeing what's going on. That was key. And also the Pentagon had many more briefings and Congress got a lot more briefings than they're getting now. I sat down. Well, actually, I reached out to Congressman Adam Smith. He's a top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee. He said he recently had A briefing with Pentagon officials, Defense Intelligence Agency officials, and, you know, asking them basic questions like, well, how are things look so far? And at what point do you think that we can say it looks good?

[Richard Haass]

At the moment, they're simply trying to blow everything up. They can blow up and weaken them to the greatest extent possible without sort of a measurement of what weaken them ultimately means.

[Tom Bowman]

And he also said that there was radio silence when he asked about Iran's

[Richard Haass]

nuclear capabilities and whether or not we're doing anything in this attack to try and specifically weaken that, or just more broadly thinking that weakening Iran in general will harm that.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Daniel what are Israeli officials confirming about how much is getting through the Iron Dome? Like, how much damage has Iran been able to inflict on Israel?

[Daniel Estrin]

You know, Israel actually has suffered the most lethal damage. Out of all the countries in the region that Iran has attacked so far, 12 people in Israel at least have been killed from from Iranian ballistic missiles. Israel's defense systems have a very high interception rate. And yet I have seen large craters in neighborhoods in Tel Aviv, in the same city where I am. And apart from the actual place of the impact, there's a huge blast radius, so windows knocked out for blocks and blocks and mayhem inside apartment buildings surrounding the blast area. So these are civilian areas. Has Iran successfully hit military targets? We don't have that information. Israel has a military censorship unit and they censor that kind of information. They say that they don't want to help the enemy to help Iran improve its aim if they're publishing where exactly it's hitting. So that is really sort of in parallel to what Tom was just saying about the lack of information we're getting from the US about what exactly is being hit in terms of their bases.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

I want to throw in one more note on the tech side of our conversation because we and many other journalists have been using as a source as we try to track the conflict, a satellite company called Planet Labs. We've already nodded to our colleague Jeff Brumfiel, who has been doing amazing work. He's been able to learn quite a lot about that bombing at the girls school from the images that this company, Planet Labs, collects and shares. Daniel, I gather it's going to be not quite so easy to use Planet Labs going forward. What's going on?

[Daniel Estrin]

Yeah, Planet Labs has announced a 14 day delay on them releasing satellite imagery in Iran. Also all Gulf Arab states and US and allied bases in the region. Now, they say that they've consulted experts in the government and outside of the government, and the reason that they're doing this delay is they don't want to help Iran target NATO personnel, civilians, allied countries. As our colleague Jeff Brumfield noted, this will be a huge setback for people like him, for journalists, for researchers trying to use this open source information and actual imagery to find out what's going on in the region. And this does help the Gulf states and the US Hide the extent of that damage.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Before we take another break, a plug for our episode earlier this week where we looked at what the war in Iran may have in common with the war in Iraq. Our guest for that episode was Richard Haass. He's president emeritus of the Council on Foreign relations. Back in 2003, he was the number three official at the State Department. And we asked him to compare what he is seeing in Iran now with the preparations for Iraq in 2003.

[Richard Haass]

We did not do nearly enough planning for the aftermath. And what planning we did, my office did. I was the head of policy. Planning was largely rejected in this administration. I'll be honest with you, I don't even get a sense they did the most rudimentary of planning.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Okay. That's a taste of our last episode before this one with our guest Richard Haas. You can hear that now in our feed. We're going to take another quick break. When we come back, the end game are Israel and the US in lockstep on war goals? That's next on sources and methods.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

Daniel, you had some reporting earlier this week that Israeli officials believe they can decimate Iran's military power in about three weeks. About three weeks is their timeframe, but also that they are proceeding as though every day could be the final day of the war because President Trump could be change his mind on when this is mission complete. He could change his mind at any time. Does that suggest that the US And Israel are not in absolute agreement on A, the duration and B, the mission here?

[Daniel Estrin]

I think it does. It looks like Israel's goal is maximize the damage it can do to Iran's capabilities until Trump pulls the plug. The senior Israeli military official I spoke with earlier, said they are working under the assumption that every day is their last and that Trump may wake up tomorrow and say, time's up. And Trump indeed has been putting out that message that the war will be over very soon. How soon, we don't know. But you already see Israeli officials, even Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, kind of shifting his messaging and preparing the public that there will not be, may not be regime collapse in Iran, as he and President Trump promised at the very beginning of this mission. And it's fascinating to see that in the Israeli public and the Israeli media. The first many days of this operation, this war, there was a lot of kind of euphoria and real support. And you see on Israeli television an Israeli flag in the corner of the TV screen and a slogan saying, we're all in this together. And interviews with fighter pilots with their backs to the camera so their identities are not shown. I mean, a real sense of war. This is going great, and public opinion here is through the roof in terms of Israeli support for this war. But you are seeing a change now. And you're hearing Israeli columnists and experts publicly saying, what are the goals of this war? What is the end goal? And if it's not toppling the regime, what happens if that regime doesn't fall?

[Tom Bowman]

No, exactly. And I think a lot of people, particularly those in Capitol Hill, are saying, you're not giving us any information about the way ahead. And what is the end game?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Is it possible, Tom, that the White House is being deliberately, intentionally fuzzy about what is the endgame? Because it leaves room for them to claim victory wherever this lands?

[Tom Bowman]

That's possible, that you can basically declare victory and go home, but what have you achieved? And as Congressman Smith said, what if they start rebuilding their capabilities?

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Daniel, did I hear you write a moment ago we were talking about how Israel is fighting every day of this war as though it may be the last, because President Trump could decide it is. Does that suggest that ultimately this war ends when President Trump says it does, it's his call?

[Daniel Estrin]

Oh, absolutely. This is a war that Israel and the US Went in together. There's been a lot of reporting out there about whether the US Was convinced Israel was going to go at it alone. And so the US Said, instead of us getting dragged in, we might as well join. But this war, we're still.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

There's no scenario where Israel is going to go it alone once the US Is out.

[Daniel Estrin]

No, there's not. I think it's very clear to every expert that I've spoken with and military officials that once Trump says this is over, it's over.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Well, as we prepare to bring this show to a close, quick moment to say it has been so great reading your feedback notes in our mailbox this week. Your notes of support during this insanely busy news cycle mean a lot. Ian wrote As a retired IC intelligence community officer, 32 plus years at CIA, ODNI and CTC, Ian says, I have greatly enjoyed your show since the inaugural episode. Ian, thank you. That's quite the resume. Ian also writes regarding your list of book recs on Iran. I would put James Clavell's historical novel Whirlwind at the top of my list. Ok.

[Tom Bowman]

Okay.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

One to add one more. Thank you, Ian. Finally, we should say the questions we get from listeners about specific ideas for stories and topics, we can't always answer them here without reporting them out and trying to advance the story. But we really appreciate reading your ideas, learning what you are curious about. And stay tuned because in the future we're looking for a way to answer a pile of all your questions all at once. Our email, please keep it coming. Our email is sourcesandmethodspr.org that's in our episode notes. And we're gonna and as we almost always do with Osint, Daniel Estrin, what you got?

[Daniel Estrin]

Mary Louise Kelly? Here's what I got. So day one of the war, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office released a picture of him speaking on the phone with President Trump. And he's I'm looking at the picture now. He's sitting at his desk. There's a map of the Middle east on his desk and some papers. Those papers are blotted out. So whatever's on them, we can't see. That's classified. But there is one thing on the desk that is in plain sight, and that's a book. The book is called Allies at How the Struggles between the Allied Powers Shape the War and the World. This is a World War II political history by Tim Bouverie. And I think the message is abundantly clear there. Netanyahu has always seen himself as a kind of a Churchill figure, and he's the son of a historian. He sees his role as prime minister of Israel in these kind of sweeping historical terms. And this is the war that he and President Trump are fighting now, a war that he sees as similar to the Allied powers fighting the Nazis in World War II. And I think that is very telling in the way that they've at least started this war and the confidence that they brought with them as They've launched this war.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Well, and you gotta think that's not accidental, that that book happened to be on his desk and is the one thing that was not blurred out. Okay, Tom Bowman, what you got?

[Tom Bowman]

Yeah, we were talking about American casualties. I got ahold of a memo last week, early last week, shortly after this war began, from an official at the Landstuhl Military Hospital in Germany, the largest hospital that serves service members, retirees in Germany. And basically what they did, the memo said, we are now shifting labor and delivery services. We're shifting those patients to German hospitals to free up some bed space for wounded Americans coming back from the Middle East. And I'm told already more than three dozen wounded Americans have gone through Landsdale Hospital.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

So fascinating all the different ways that we're learning about this conflict and the impact on the people waging it and being affected by it all over. All right, I'm gonna see us out. And mine is an update from a different corner of the world, Venezuela, which, Tom, as you remember, was all we were talking about two months ago. How was it only two months ago that the US Went in, ousted Maduro? It has been difficult, it has been really dangerous for foreign journalists to try to get into Venezuela and do the kind of on the ground reporting we've been talking about in this episode. I am happy to share that our colleague Eder Peralta has managed to get into Venezuela. He's been there this week. He's been out in the streets. He's been talking to people. Reporting has been great. Just bringing us sounds from the streets there, so that we've been airing across different NPR platforms. But my OSINT has to do with. One of the many questions that we've been trying to chase down is what happens now to Maria Corina Machado, the leader of Venezuela's opposition? You'll recall she won the Nobel Peace Prize last year for her work. She had left Venezuela to collect that prize. So she wasn't in Venezuela when the US Sweeped in and snatched Maduro and his wife. And the question has been, is she going to go back? When's she going to go back? Can she go back? How does she get back? We've been tracking her story closely. We had an interview with her on this podcast a few weeks ago. The latest twist is she is on the move. She arrived in Chile this week, on Tuesday. That was to attend the inauguration of Chile's new president. But Venezuelans greeted her when she landed at the airport in Santiago. They were chanting, I want you back, Maria. They were holding up signs welcoming her. Chile is not Venezuela. So we don't know what her next move may be. But I just wanted to put that on everybody's radar. She's back in South America. So watch this space. All right. That is us bringing the latest episode of Sources and Methods to a close. We've been talking with NPR international correspondent Daniel Estrin in Tel Aviv. Thank you, Daniel.

[Daniel Estrin]

Thank you, guys.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

And Pentagon correspondent Tom Bowman here with me in Washington. Thank you, Tom.

[Tom Bowman]

You're welcome. Welcome.

[Mary Louise Kelly]

Before we go, a thank you to our NPR listeners who support the work of every journalist you hear on this show, wherever they may be in the world. NPR listeners also get every episode without sponsor messages a nice little time saver. And they can access our full archive of episodes. And we got a lot. Now you can Learn more at plus.NPR.org thanks for listening. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. We are back next week with another episode of Sources and Methods from npr.

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[Mary Louise Kelly]

She would call us idiots, stupid, worthless,

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low of the low on the Sunday story, coaches accused of emotional abuse and the players who push back the Sunday story from the up first podcast. Listen now on the NPR app.