The Weather Report that Changed History

Summary

SpyCast Episode Summary: “The Weather Report that Changed History”

Date: June 2, 2026
Host: Dr. Mark Jacobson (guest hosting for Sasha Ingber)
Guests: David Hague (screenwriter, playwright), Anthony Maris (co-writer & director of "Pressure")

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Overview

This episode of SpyCast explores the behind-the-scenes story of the pivotal D-Day weather forecast—the focus of the new film "Pressure." Host Dr. Mark Jacobson is joined by David Hague and Anthony Maris, who discuss Group Commander J.N. Stagg’s central role as chief meteorologist to the Allied command. The conversation delves into how intelligence, personality, uncertainty, and leadership converged at one of history’s most consequential moments.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Discovery and Importance of J.N. Stagg

[01:20–02:21]

• David Hague recounts how, while seeking a Scottish “hero on the sidelines of history” for a stage play, he discovered Stagg’s “extraordinary contribution” to D-Day and “the future ... of Western civilization.”

  • “You could even argue, of Western civilization, because this Second World War had to be won and he was a serious contributor to that victory.” (David Hague, 01:58)

• Hague praises Stagg’s “integrity and honesty ... disguised within a certain peremptory bluntness,” highlighting this as key to his appeal as a dramatic character.

  • “There’s so much ticking on the inside” with Stagg, although so little shows outwardly. (Hague, 02:57)

2. Portrayal of Stagg’s Character & Evolution

[03:45–06:00]

• Anthony Maris describes Stagg as initially a force of nature: “He’s not really, you know, quote unquote likable in the typical sense. ... But then you see the clouds start to sort of open a little bit and you get this big burst of humanity...” (Maris, 04:33)
• Maris likens Stagg’s journey to a storm clearing, revealing a hidden humanity beneath a steely exterior.

3. The Stakes: D-Day’s Precarious Gamble

[06:00–09:44]

• The film opens with the tragic “Operation Tiger” rehearsal, in which hundreds of Allied troops die due to both German attack and friendly fire. Maris explains this grounds the audience in the real consequences of failure.

  • “...more died in Exercise Tiger than on Utah Beach ... it was really important to show the consequences of failure so that for the rest of the film, it has a different kind of power.” (Maris, 07:03)

• Eisenhower’s “need for certainty” in the weather is pivotal, owing to the vulnerability of the landing craft and the implications of a failed assault.

  • “So to get that forecast right had colossal potential repercussions for Western civilization, no less.” (Hague, 09:13)

• Maris pushes back on the idea that Soviet advances made D-Day less consequential: “...what does Europe look like after that?” (Maris, 10:21)

4. Leadership Tensions: Eisenhower v. Montgomery

[11:29–14:25]

• Discussion turns to the pressure from British General Montgomery to attack without delay and Eisenhower’s role in weighing uncertainties.
• Maris highlights the intricate interplay of personalities: “You had Ramsay, you had Eisenhower, you had Montgomery, ... Monty had a real point. ... You can’t just keep these men housed up like that ... how are you going to seal the lips of hundreds of thousands of men?”
• Churchill’s tongue-in-cheek quote about Montgomery: “Indispensable in battle, unbearable in victory.” (Maris, ~13:55)

5. Stagg’s Internal Struggle & Meteorological Uncertainty

[14:25–20:35]

• Stagg’s resilience under pressure comes from overcoming “his own demons, his own uncertainty …” (Hague, 15:08)
• The technical limitations of 1944 are underscored: “He’s doing this job without satellites, without global forecasts.”
• Anthony Maris details the process:
  • No computers—“human brained and human brawn” analyzed vast, often conflicting data streams.
  • Stagg must synthesize divergent opinions and manage interpersonal dynamics, learning to communicate his convictions and earn Eisenhower’s trust.
  • “At a certain point, the data stops working. You also have to connect on a human level.” (Maris, 19:45)

6. Personality Clashes: Stagg v. Irving Crick

[21:42–23:35]

• Chris Messina’s portrayal of Crick is discussed—a “flamboyant ... Hollywood darling” and foil to Stagg.
• Maris shares a Facebook post from Crick’s son: “My dad said time after time, he just didn’t like this guy, James Stagg.” (Maris, 22:13)
• Hague notes, “He [Crick] sold his cloud seeding techniques to produce rain in the Middle East … a pretty dubious meteorological half-truth.” (Hague, 22:50)
• Crick’s synoptic forecast methods and status in Hollywood and among military leaders are explored.

7. Kay Summersby: An Unsung Hero

[23:35–26:04]

• Hague celebrates Summersby as a woman of rare agency and resilience: “There are very, very few women in that era who had such agency ... within that patriarchal male world.”
• Her influence and support for Eisenhower—practical and emotional—was pivotal during the strain of D-Day’s buildup.

8. Themes: Heroism, Leadership, and Living with Uncertainty

[26:04–31:56]

• Hague articulates “quiet heroism” in Stagg, Eisenhower, and Summersby—not the epic kind but “sticking to your guns ... helping to solve a problem ... becoming indispensable.”
• Maris emphasizes the contemporary resonance: “In times of crisis, you want people who aren’t going to give you BS, but ... tell it as it is … that quality gets rarer and rarer. ... I wish we had leaders across the world like that today.” (Maris, 29:41)
• Eisenhower as a model of accountability, writing a letter taking all blame in case D-Day failed.
• The story as a metaphor for all decision-making under pressure: “The whole film is about one decision.” (Maris, 30:29)

9. Eisenhower’s Perspective on the Weather Team

[30:43–31:56]

• Hague recounts that Eisenhower credited the weather team for D-Day’s success, telling JFK “we had better meteorologists than the Germans.” (Hague, 30:54 | Maris, 31:18)
• The understated heroism of Stagg: “Not all heroes wear capes. ... Sometimes they ... check some barometric pressure ... save the world, and they just go home again and be with their wife and kids.” (Maris, 31:44)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone.” —Dr. Mark Jacobson quoting Eisenhower’s never-delivered failure statement (00:20)
• “Stag’s almost like a storm. ... But then you see the clouds start to sort of open a little bit and you get this big burst of humanity.” (Anthony Maris, 04:21)
• “We try to build this idea of Stagg obviously having his own very clear meteorological opinion on things, but he’s also having to synthesize stuff that all these other team members ... are bringing to him.” (Maris, 18:55)
• “She [Kay Summersby] was my favorite character ... there are very, very few women in that era who had such agency ... so resilient and influential within that patriarchal ... world.” (Hague, 24:09)
• “The whole film is about one decision.” (Anthony Maris, 30:38)
• “Not all heroes wear capes. Sometimes they walk out of their house, they, you know, check some barometric pressure, they save the world, and they just go home again and be with their wife and kids. And that’s kind of what Stagg did. So there’s something noble in that.” (Maris, 31:44)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:20] – Introduction to Stagg and the film’s genesis
• [03:45] – Characterization of Stagg and approach to dramatization
• [06:00] – Operation Tiger and depiction of potential failure
• [08:53] – Why weather was critical to D-Day
• [11:29] – Leadership dynamics: Eisenhower vs. Montgomery
• [14:25] – Stagg’s psychological and professional battle with uncertainty
• [16:25] – Synthesizing conflicting data and the process of decision-making
• [21:42] – Irving Crick: Personality and contest with Stagg
• [23:35] – Kay Summersby’s role and agency
• [26:04] – What the story teaches about heroism and leadership
• [30:43] – Eisenhower’s recognition of his meteorologists’ impact

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Final Takeaways

Pressure (the film) and D-Day’s weather forecast offer powerful lessons in heroism, decision-making under uncertainty, the quiet strength of truth-tellers, and the grueling weight of command. Stagg, Eisenhower, Montgomery, Crick, and Summersby emerge as memorable figures—flawed, courageous, and ultimately united by their pursuit of something bigger than themselves. As Maris underscores, “How do you bring your best self to the table when all the chips are down, when you don’t know all the answers ... ? Beyond war, beyond history, it’s a fable about that.”

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Transcript

[Anthony Maris]

You're listening to the Cyberwire Network, powered by N2K.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Welcome to Spycast, the official podcast of the International spy Museum. I'm Dr. Mark Jacobson filling in for Sascha Engber. Today we're stepping into the hidden world of spies shaping events around the world. If any blame or fault attaches to the attempt, it is mine alone. This is the end of the announcement Supreme Allied Commander General Dwight David Eisenhower had prepared in June 1944 in case the D Day landings failed. He never had to deliver it, but the fact that he wrote it tells you all you need to know about how precarious the success of the invasion really was. And at the center of that uncertainty was something no army could control. The weather. This is the premise of the new major motion picture, Pressure, the story of the small team of meteorologists trying to predict the unpredictable. I'm here today with the screenwriter of Pressure, David Hague, and the film's co writer and director, Anthony Maris, to discuss how a simple weather forecast proved to be a critical piece of intelligence. Antony and David, thank you for joining me today.

[David Hague]

Thank you for having me and us.

[Anthony Maris]

Great to be here.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

David, how did you come Across Group Commander J.N. stagg in the first place? And what made you think that his story wouldn't be just a footnote to history, but really the focus of what would become not just a great play, but then a great screenplay and movie as well?

[David Hague]

Well, in 2011, a very distinguished theater in Scotland in Edinburgh, the Royal Lyceum Theatre, approached John Dove, who was a theatre director and myself, and asked if we could find a hero on the sidelines of history who was Scottish. And so we researched, and up came James Stagg and his extraordinary contribution to the landings of D Day and the future, you could even argue, of Western civilization, because this Second World War had to be won and he was a serious contributor to that victory. And I started writing the stage play and I thought it was an irresistible story.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Well, you certainly can't overstate the importance of D Day, and. And I also think it's important for our audience to understand how meticulous you were in your research. It wasn't just historical records of. Of the military campaign, but we're talking meteorological records, conversations with the family. And David, can you tell us a little bit more about his background? What enabled him to be the type of person that Churchill would send to Eisenhower for the most important operation of the war?

[David Hague]

He was the son of a plumber from a small village near Edinburgh, Dalkeith. And I personally actually I have a personal thing here. I'm slight. I have some Scottish blood in me myself. But the traits I have always admired more than almost anything else in certain Scots is this integrity and honesty that is disguised within a certain peremptory bluntness. And I find it an incredibly appealing trait. And I think Anthony would probably sort of support the theory that it's a fascinating character to deal with, particularly for you, Anthony, filmically, because so much is going on inside, so little is revealed on the exterior that it's fascinating to investigate one of those human beings, as it were, you know, that there's so much ticking on the inside.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

And Antony, if we could dive into that a little bit, what did you want to see come out on the screen? In particular with Andrew Scott's performance as Stag?

[Anthony Maris]

One of the things that I found really compelling, I guess, about Stag's character was how he evolves in the screenplay and how you go in looking at this character one way and you get a very different picture of him by the end. But then you kind of think, well, where did that transition happen? And I think what's beautiful about the screenplay is that Stag's almost like a storm. You know, he comes into the halls of Suffolk House and he takes no prisoners. He means business. He's hyper confident and he doesn't suffer fools. He's not really, you know, quote unquote likable in the typical sense. And what's. What becomes fascinating is that you see this storm come through and everyone's kind of on edge because he's a force. But then you see the clouds start to sort of open a little bit and you get this big burst of humanity, of sunlight through the clouds. And it might be a simple thing where he's talking about his wife or he's on the phone, a very important phone call that happens in the film or something that happens at the end of the film. And it results in a picture of a man who you thought was just this wound up strict sort of disciplinarian meteorologist. And you realize there's this big heart beneath him. And I think the sort of way that Andrew is able to oscillate between those two worlds, you see a full picture of a guy under pressure and that speaks to the bigger picture of what the film's about and what, on a very basic level, makes it fascinating. You got the world's most brilliant minds locked in a room trying to second guess nature and watching them kind of go insane over this three day period as they're trying to figure out, do we launch the biggest Seabourne invasion in history or don't we? It is important to remember these were the greatest minds the Allied world had to offer. They all wanted the same thing. They wanted to win and to watch not just these men or personalities, but their ideologies, their points of view on how the world works, clash against one another. As you know, as a filmmaker is inherently dramatic.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

The movie starts off with uncertainty and chaos and things that cannot be controlled. And that's a series of accidents that happened during Operation Tiger, one of the practice landings for the Normandy invasion. German torpedo boats sink a number of Allied landing craft. And of course, you show the friendly fire incident where naval gunfire kills Allied troops, American troops that are under Eisenhower's command. In fact, Eisenhower insisted that that live fire take place to make the practice more realistic. What were you all trying to show in terms of what this does to Eisenhower and his willingness to assume risk as the planning and decision making went forward for the 6 June invasion?

[Anthony Maris]

There was another reason for it, though. It went to Eisenhower's character. But from a very basic story construction point, it's how do you show the consequences of failure to the audience, of, if we make a mistake, what does it look like on the other side? And so, upon learning that there was this massive dress rehearsal for D Day, it was only six weeks out, went horrifically wrong, and more died in Exercise Tiger than on Utah Beach. And I just felt that after we looked at the multitude of different ways you could start this film, that it was really important to show the consequences of failure so that for the rest of the film, it has a different kind of power. When you're watching these, like, fraught discussions about, do we invade now? And are the Germans going to find out? And all this sort of stuff, because it comes down to, if we screw up, forget about the hundreds that died at Exercise Tiger. When we're facing Nazis, you know, bunkered up on a fortified position, which is the hardest position, pretty much the hardest military thing to do, to invade across water to a defensive position. We're just gonna be slaughtered. And that has to hang over all their heads for the tension to work and also to reflect what actually happened in real life. It was driving Ike mad throughout the course of the film. So while he was smoking four to six packets of cigarettes a day, he's drinking 20 cups of coffee. Like, can you imagine? I'm on my first cup now. I'd be a nightmare by 20 cups. He had an ulcer on the back of his hip, right that was a stress ulcer that Kay was dressing by night.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Eisenhower's under this enormous amount of pressure as you are able to show the audience from the beginning. In fact, he's very concerned about the uncertainty. At one point, Brendan Frazier, as Eisenhower says, strongly, I need certainty from Stagg. Tell us about why the weather, why certainty in the weather is so important for the D Day operation.

[David Hague]

Well, one of the principal reasons is that the landing craft were antiquated and archaic and flat bottomed. So anything over about Force five would have been potentially lethal and could have caused as many as 80 to 100,000 deaths. Added to which it may not have changed. It probably wouldn't have changed the course of the war, but certainly it would have elongated the war and caused a huge number of extra casualties on mainland Europe. And so to get that forecast right had colossal potential repercussions for Western civilization, no less.

[Anthony Maris]

There's also the moon. You know, for the paratroopers to land, you didn't have night vision obviously, so they needed the moon. The tides had to be a certain level so that the boats could go in. Yeah, but you know, if they, if they didn't, if D Day wasn't a success though, you know, a lot of people talk about this and they're like, okay, well the Soviets were already on their way through to Germany and they would have rolled over them. Yes, true, but then what does Europe look like after that? So had they not got on the continent, then there are multiple scenarios that could have eventuated. There could have been a treaty where west of the Rhine or west of some point it's Nazi and to the other side it's Soviet. It could have been the case that the entire continental Europe was Soviet. It's history now because it happened. Anything can happen in war. And I don't think it's as clear cut as saying, well, the Soviets were our allies and so we would have been good by that stage. In 1944 there were already proxy wars going on between the Soviets and the west, specifically in Greece. Like the reason my family came to Australia is they were caught up in that war. Whereas the Soviets were backing one side of the fight, the west was backing the other side and they were already fighting one another in these proxy wars. A lot of people say, oh, you know, I know about history. And no, the, the Allies were already good. It's more complex than that. And this, and what a lot of these people were doing was trying to project forward past the immediate piece. And what does Europe and the world look like after that, you know, continental Europe could be speaking German or Russian or a combination of the both if this had not succeeded. So they, they were very well aware of those stakes, Eisenhower in particular.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

So you have tides, you have cloud cover, you have moonlight, you have sea conditions. And amongst some of the Allies, and particularly the British, led by Montgomery, at this point he is concerned that if there is a delay to the invasion, this is going to increase the risk that the invasion itself isn't a success. Can you tell us a little bit about, I guess two things. One, what was the tension between Eisenhower and Montgomery on a personal level? And I guess for Anthony, what did you want Damian Lewis to bring out in that division of ideas, that debate between Ike and Montgomery?

[David Hague]

It's an interesting debate. I mean, that impetuosity of Montgomery and his desire to go whatever were actually admirable features to an extent. It's just that they were so poorly founded on the facts in this particular case. But yeah. What did you feel, Anthony, what did you want from Montgomery in the film particularly?

[Anthony Maris]

I just felt that you had titanic figures across the Allied leadership. You had Ramsay, you had obviously Eisenhower, you had Montgomery, you had Bradley, you had many others. But I think of all of them, Montgomery, being the head of all the Allied land forces, was hyper capable, cared deeply about his troops, but also had the bigger picture in mind. And from a dramatic point of view, Stagg had his crick, Ike had his Monty. And that's not to say that someone's just squabbling for the sake of squabbling. Montgomery had a real point like you bring up Mark, which is, yeah, we can wait as much as we want. We wait too long, it's all going to be for nothing. A, you can't just keep these men housed up like that and how are you going to seal the lips of hundreds of thousands of men? And I think his character, from a dramatic point of view, is really important to show that the kinds of tensions that Ike was fighting were not just weather, they were a multitude of other factors. Like in the film we go into some detail on the diversion tactics, the inflatable tanks and ships and all of these sort of things that Montgomery had spearheaded. Kind of like a magician, you were showing the film as in history, that it wasn't just this one pronged effort, it was land, air, sea, subterfuge, secrecy, you know, second guessing the weather. Like it was this massive effort that was all coming together. And Monty represented a big part of that. He's also just a great character. Like I'm going to bastardize the quote, I'm sure. But Churchill said something which you know is kind of chocolate, where he said something like, you know, it's about Montgomery in battle, indispensable in victory, unbearable. And, you know, that was Monty where you wanted him on your side. Oh, God. You're going to hear about it once he starts gloating.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Well, let's talk a little bit more about Stag. I mean, you've set up the pressure that Stag is under. He has Eisenhower, he has Montgomery, he has the weather. Stag understands the enormity of what's about to happen and the consequences of, of the forecast. And he needs to get it right. As Ike says, I need you to be certain. What do you each think that's enabled Stag to cope with that pressure? Or as you show in the film, you know, he has challenges but he ultimately gets through. As you say, he evolves and adapts the situation. What enables him to do that and what do you want the audience to understand about Stagg's evolution as he tries to adapt to that pressure?

[David Hague]

I think the crucial thing that we're talking about is how he manages to defeat his own demons, his own uncertainty, his own knowledge that weather is always, inevitably uncertain. How any human being, any man in that situation manages to suppress the fear and the chaos within him, to make the decision as well as he can, to, in its simplest terms, do his job as well as he can.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

And he's doing this job without satellites, without global forecasts. How difficult is it for meteorologists in 1944 to give a fairly reasonable prediction of the weather?

[David Hague]

Yeah, yeah, well, quite. Actually, Anthony, you did a lot of work in the later drafts on the variety of information and data. And data was always very important to you, wasn't it, in the screenplay? So you brought in a lot of these external sources. I mainly dealt with the clash between Crick's philosophy with synoptic charts in the past and Stagg and the Europeans nascent understanding of the jet stream and that current's power and weather balloons and stuff like that.

[Anthony Maris]

Yeah, I think that it was a natural evolution of what was already there. But, you know, I think what sets Stagg apart from many of the other characters is frankly his ability to live with uncertainty. And it's something that he as a meteorologist and also as an explorer in a sense. He was not in a lab his whole life. He was out in the Arctic on weather ships at sub zero temperatures for months, years at a time. He's a Tough dude. And he'd seen a lot. He's not just reading maps. He was out there in the teeth of the weather. In his formative years as meteorology as a science was being developed, it wasn't obviously what it is, it is today. And the more that we got into the research, it wasn't just his skills as a meteorologist. In fact, that's not the key reason he was there. He was kind of like the head of the octopus who as Ike, had to decide ultimately, do we go or don't we go? Stag had to decide what's the weather going to be? Now how does he do that? There are thousands, if not tens of thousands or more data points coming in from all around the world. They've got, you know, planes and they've got balloons they're sending up in the Arctic and in the deserts and in Newfoundland and bases off the Atlantic. They even had French Resistance members with little weather balloon kits and transmitters and stuff, setting off balloons in France to get the details from them. Like it was a really big effort. Ultimately, all of that data has got to come in and be synthesized somewhere and has to be analyzed somewhere. And there was no computers, there was no computer driven algorithms. It was human brained and human brawn in the sense of hands physically pushing pencils around. But ultimately someone had to make that call. And so what Stagg had the unenviable task of doing was he had beneath him a number of different meteorologists, you know, who were saying, it's going to be sunny and it's going to be great, or it's going to be an absolute storm and everything in between. And so we try to build this idea of Stagg obviously having his own very clear meteorological opinion on things, but he's also having to synthesize stuff that all these other team members, including Crick, are bringing to him. And again, it's that idea of watching this clash of how we see the world. Not just personalities, that's personalities as well, but it's how we see the world. And it brings up something interesting with Crick where, you know, it's easy to say, looking back, oh, he got it right or he got it wrong. And yes, in that particular time, he got it wrong, you know, just for the D Day call. But he was one of the most esteemed meteorologists on Earth at that point. Now, his methods maybe may have been outdated now, but, you know, he was advising the biggest Hollywood productions, as you see in the film. You know, he was right in 90 plus percent of the campaign in North Africa. He was trusted by Ike, and he understood something that Stagg didn't, which was what Aristotle would say. It's not just what you say, it's who says it and how you say it that makes an impact, because there has to be an element of trust between leadership and those advising them. And Crick understood that. There's a line in the script where he goes, what are you talking about? I know him referring to Eisenhower. Whereas Stag's like, what difference does that make? The facts are the facts. And what stag comes to learn through all of this is, everyone's really busy. Everyone's got a lot of stuff on their mind. What stag's immediate obstacle is in this film is, I'm Cassandra. I can see into the future. No one else will believe me. How do I get my point across? And, you know, there's a point in the film where he's just like, effort. I'm just going to tell you exactly how I feel. Because at a certain point, the data stops working. You also have to connect on a human level. And Stagg learns to do that at a certain point and earns Ike's trust as he had in real life. We've compressed the timeline a little bit into how long that all took, but those dynamics were very important to capture.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

When we come back, we'll talk about some of the other dominant personalities and how the allies overcame these differences.

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[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Chris Messina is playing cricket. As very flamboyant again as you spoke about the Hollywood darling. This is what he was like in real life. And how did this help you to recreate these intense clashes that he has with Stagg?

[Anthony Maris]

I'll read you something. This is fresh off the press. So this is from Facebook one week ago. So Irv Crick, who is the son of Irving Crick, has seen the trailer. Here's what he wrote.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

No.

[David Hague]

Yes.

[Anthony Maris]

Yes. I just saw this. He says to Teresa Priley, who I guess is his friend. My dad certainly was a controversial character. We'll see how close the Movie describes to what I know, but my dad said time after time, he just didn't like this guy, James Stagg. Right. And so assuming that is the real Irv Crick, which. Irv, I guess it is you. My dad was certainly a confident guy and frankly caught a lot of flack about his method. But guess what? They work so well that his company survives to this day. That tension was there and they, there was no love lost. But, you know, there was a grudging respect.

[David Hague]

I think, you know, he was there after the war to make money as well. I mean, he, he, he sold his cloud seeding techniques, you know, to produce rain in the Middle east, which was a pretty dubious meteorological half truth. And, and made a huge amount of money for it. And his book is really, is very flattering about Irving Crick, his memoir. And he looked a bit like Clark Gable, didn't he? I mean, he was just a great character. But as you say, Anthony, a very, very sound meteorologist, very respected. And using a system that did work on a large landmass on a big continental basis, those synoptic charts worked.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

As you've both said, one of Stagg's responsibilities is to take these divergent forecasts that are coming from the European, the Americans, and figure out a way through. And it's not just a matter of the data, it's a matter of the personalities. And, and Kay Summersby plays a very important role in this. And tell us how you wanted Kay Summersby to be portrayed. I mean, she's not just a driver for Eisenhower. She's a very important confidant, maybe even a more important chief of staff than General Beetle Smith was for Eisenhower.

[David Hague]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's right. And she was my favorite character when writing the stage play for many reasons, one of which is that there are very, very few women in that era who had such agency, who managed to be so resilient and influential within that patriarchal male world. And I can think of a tonally resonant similarity in Imitation Game with Joy Clark, isn't it? That was her name. Who was the cryptologist who helped Turing. And again, you know, they paid her less. They paid Joy Clark less. She had to pretend she was doing a completely different job to get into the hut that was interpreting the data, you know, on the computer. And similarly with Kay Summersby, yes, she could open the bonnet of, of Ike's car and mend, you know, as a very qualified mechanic. She was a confidant, she was a brilliant pa. And she even that, as I say, it sounds vaguely patriarchal, actually, but I don't mean it to, because there were so few women who had that energy and desire to influence and also such importance within a story like this. So I was always very, very fond of Kay and I'm very fond of the interdepend of the two of them within the story. That there was something about what Kay could offer Eisenhower that helped him survive the physical chaos that Anthony was alluding to earlier. The cigarettes, the coffee, the sores on his back, you know, I mean, just that sheer relentless pressure that she was able to help him come through.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

David and Anthony, what do you hope audiences take away from this film about D Day, about uncertainty, about leadership, and of course about pressure once they've seen the film?

[David Hague]

I think there is something innately heroic, not in a Marvel Films type way heroic, but quietly heroic in all the protagonists. I think Eisenhower in the deliberate sagacity of his trust and choice, stagg up against pressure on the point of cracking, sticking to his guns and saying what he believed to be true. And K. Summersby helping to solve a problem between the three, between the leaders of this situation becoming indispensable to the outcome of this choice. And so all three of those main protagonists share a quiet heroism which I think would be a great thing to communicate and would resonate nowadays when so many choices are impulsive and fast and reactive. And they treated choice and deliberation and the importance of their choices in a very different way. And that's something that really strikes me about the film and about the story.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

One of my colleagues used to say that genius on the battlefield was the ability to reconcile the fog and of war and the friction that comes with it. And what you've described is really the. The genius of Stag and being able to reconcile that for leadership. Antony, your thoughts?

[Anthony Maris]

Yeah, I think that in Stag you've got a character who's willing to look the most powerful men on earth pretty much at this time, and that Allied leadership is willing to look him in the eye and tell them what he knows they don't want to hear, but what he knows that they need to hear. And I think there's power in that example. I think Stagg the meteorologist, is like a rock who is unflappable and who you want on your side and who's willing to tell the truth. And in times of crisis you want people who aren't going to give you bs, but who are going to basically tell it as it is, as they say. And I Think that in the world that we live in now, that quality gets rarer and rarer, as is the qualities that Eisenhower showed in the lead up to D Day, where you have a portrait of a leader who cares deeply about his men, who agonizes over their fate, and who fundamentally just wants to do the right thing. And, you know, you only have to look to the history at what Eisenhower did on the eve of D Day in writing two letters, one in victory, he commended the troops and gave and gave them the. Gave them the victory, said it was because of the troops bravery that they won. And yet he wrote another letter in case of defeat and said all responsibility rested with him. I wish we had leaders across the world like that today. I think the kind of world that we live in and the news cycle that we have makes that sort of style of leadership get rarer and rarer. But it helped us through some of the toughest times that we faced, at least in the West. And, you know, there's honor there. It should be commended when you've got someone like Eisenhower in mind, who had a million men or so behind him in terms of troops and how many people were in that logistics chain, a million men, but he's all alone ultimately, to make that decision. I think we can learn about who we are by looking at how other people, in times of absolute crisis, how they deal with that crisis and how they deal with that pressure. And I think, you know, if anything, what. What pressure gets to is how do you bring your best self to the table when all the chips are down, when you don't know all the answers and you've got to make some of the biggest decisions of your life like that, beyond war, beyond history, it's a fable about that. You know, how do you make the best decision? And the whole film is about one decision. And it's. And it's exciting to see these characters smash up against one another as they try and get the answer to that question.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

And a final question for you, David. Do you think Eisenhower, in the end understood the importance that Stagg and the other meteorologists played in helping him to make the right decision?

[David Hague]

I do. And he rather wittily says that the success of D Day was because we had better weather forecasters than the Germans. So I think he did understand that, but he understood something deeper as well, that whether that Anthony and I have tried to articulate in what those two men actually, if we're talking about Eisenhower and Stag stood for, and he said

[Anthony Maris]

that to JFK at his inauguration, it was the first question JFK asked him what gave us the edge on D Day. And it's just interesting that at the same time that Eisenhower is responding as you described, we had better meteorologists than the Germans. You know, I was gonna say Andrew Scott, he played the thing so well. But James Stagg just went back to a quiet life in England. He studied meteorology. And it's not all heroes wear capes. Sometimes they walk out of their house, they, you know, check some barometric pressure, they save the world, and they just go home again and be with their wife and kids. And that's kind of what Stagg did. So there's something noble in that.

[David Hague]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Well, gentlemen, I think that's the perfect place to end it. Today, the movie is Pressure the Untold Story Behind D Day. It's out in theaters now. David Hague, Antony Maris, thank you so much for joining us on Spycast today.

[David Hague]

Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it very much.

[Dr. Mark Jacobson]

Thanks for listening to this episode of Spycast. If you like the episode, please give us a follow on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and leave us a rating or review. It really helps. And if you have any feedback or want to hear about a particular topic, you can reach us by [e-mail] I'm your guest host, Dr. Mark Jacobson, and this show is brought to you by N2K Networks, goat rodeo and the International Spy museum in Washington, D.C.