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- [00:03]
A
Hi, I'm Helen.
- [00:04]
B
And I'm Sarah.
- [00:05]
A
And you're listening to the second week of the Squiggly Careers Video Book Club. So this is something that we have created to kickstart your learning in 2025 and also create a bit of a community around something we really care about, which is development and focusing on your career development. Today, Sarah and I are going to talk about a video book which was recorded by Bob Cialdini and it's called the Psychology of Persuas.
- [00:34]
B
And so why is influence important in our Squiggly careers? I think there are a few things when you think about influence, I was reflecting on when do we need to have influence in Squiggly careers? And I think there's sort of two whens. There's like the when that's connected to your work, to your day job, and then there's the when that's connected more to your career. So I think in your career there are certain moments that matter where you are looking to have a lot of influence. So, you know, if you're in an interview, you're trying to influence that person to give you a role. If you are making a career change, you're trying to influence somebody that, you know, you've got those transferable talents, you know, you're trying to persuade people. And I think in a more sort of day to day way, which I think is how influence typically kind of probably shows up more commonly. We are all trying to influence each other, I think, all of the time, which can feel a bit uncomfortable. Like, I think as I was going through this video book, quite a few of the concepts and ideas did make me a bit uncomfortable. But I think here this is really about just being smart. So if we want to have impact often we need to sort of share our work with other people. We want other people to be on board with that work, to support and to sponsor that work. So I do think influence doesn't have to be. We're not manipulating. As I was kind of going through the reconciliation, I think I got to, in my own mind with some of these ideas was there is a difference between influence to increase your impact and manipulation, which is more sort of, I don't know, seedy. And you're doing something in kind of not, not a very nice way just to get a yes or just to get your own way. And then, you know, when I think about the people I've worked with who have really incredible influence, I would never describe them as manipulative, I would just always describe them as you know, they knew how to build really brilliant relationships. And I think there's a really strong connection between your ability to build brilliant relationships and then your ability to influence. That was the process I went through as I watched the video book.
- [02:32]
A
Well, to be fair, I think Bob Cialdini in the video book does acknowledge that on quite a few points. So if this is the first time you're coming across his work, he basically talks through these seven different skills really, of influence, these different things that you can do to influence an outcome. And I've come across his work, like, years and years ago. I mean, his book is New York Times bestseller and then some. And I think I came across it in the context of marketing probably like 10 years ago, because it's quite, you know, in marketing, a lot of time you're trying to, you know, influence someone to purchase. And so they're particularly relevant to that profession as well as, like, you know, work and careers more broadly. But he does talk in the video book about when somebody might be using this particular skill of influence in a way that is a bit more manipulative and kind of what are the watch outs for that. So I think he does cover it. And his insights about these skills are based on years and years of research. So in the video book and his actual book, there's a lot of research that he talks through to sort of bring these things to life. And so today, Sarah and I are going to talk about some of those skills. We're going to talk about things that stuck with us and things that we found surprising and things we're going to do as a result of watching the video book. And then tomorrow you'll hear a conversation with me and Bob where he actually shares a few more of those sort of research stories. You hear a little bit more from his perspective, you know, several years on, after writing the book, sort of his sort of updated view. Because in fact, there's a new skill that he added more recently, which is something called unity, the power of unity in influencing people.
- [04:00]
B
But we shall see whether that was.
- [04:02]
A
Something that stuck with Sarah or not. So go on, let's start. Let's start. What was something that stuck with you from watching the video book?
- [04:08]
B
Well, the phrase that I wrote down was this idea of peer suasion. And this is the concept of what he describes as social proofing, which is essentially, we are really impacted by our peers. So what other people are doing, people that we maybe feel are similar to us or even just like doing a similar thing to us when we make Decisions, we are almost less influenced by what we think and more influenced often by what other people think. And again, I sort of. I go, oh, I can see how that is true. But also I want to be influenced by what I think. But if you then think about shopping. So when you go onto lots of websites now, it always says, you know, 29 other people are looking at this item, really a boring item that I'm usually buying for my new house, this bin. It's usually a bin. 29 other people are looking at this bin, or things like five other people have got this bin in their basket. And I think it creates a sense of sort of urgency. And he talks about this, you know, like fomo, fear of missing out. And I always felt like actually understanding that sometimes understanding some of these tactics, you can make a choice about whether to be influenced by them. So rather than just thinking, well, I'll buy this bin, because everybody's buying this bin, you think, well, do I really want this bin? Is this the right bin for me? Which tells you a bit about what's happening in my life right now, how boring it is.
- [05:37]
A
It's a lot of bin chat.
- [05:38]
B
It's a lot of bin chat. A lot of bin chat. But I was thinking from a work context. I do think it is interesting because often I think when you're trying to influence, you think about the person. So I might be like, oh, I need to influence Helen around this decision that I need her to say yes to. And that might be true, but one other thing that I might want to do is think about, well, who does Helen spend time with and who is Helen influenced by? Because I've often seen this with kind of leadership teams, like, this is why people end up sort of, maybe before decisions, going to have conversations with quite a few different people. Because if you can get a few people on board, and then if Helen wasn't that sure, but her peers were all saying, oh, yeah, I think this is a good idea, I think we should be investing in this, then Helen might have been on the fence, but maybe that's the kind of tipping point to think, okay, well, I respect the opinions of the people that I kind of work with, the peers that I work with. And so actually, it's an interesting way of influencing. And I was starting to think about, like, careers and taking actions around careers and how we could sort of help people with that by sort of going, well, actually, if you create a really strong community, if you think about persuasion as community, which is another take on it, actually, communities acting together and sharing what they're doing will help to kind of influence have like a really positive ripple effect. So someone could say, oh well, I tried asking this strengths feedback question. This is a question I ask. And do you know what? It worked really well. And then in that community you go, oh, okay, well they're all part of the squiggly queers community. Maybe I'll have a go asking that question. I could imagine then the ripple effects of persuasion actually being really positive if you sort of put that community lens on it. Albeit he doesn't talk about that. But this was me making my own connections. So that's where I got to.
- [07:29]
A
I think that is also why we are asking people to share their badges to say I'm, you know, I'm part of the video book club. Because when you see people like you learning, it makes you want to learn too. There's something he said I wrote down in the video book on this point and he said, if they can, I can. That's kind of, you know, part of the persuasion. And so if you haven't shared your video book club badget, please do, because then more people will want to learn like you are. The thing that stuck for me was the points he said about authority. So one of his principles is that we are influenced by people in positions of authority. And there's something I think in what he said which is helpful for you to know so how you can kind of influence people with your authority. And then I think it's also, you know, Sarah talked about the watch outs. I think there's a bit of a kind of a watch out to this as well. So specifically what he said that stuck with me was that you can get authority either because you are in authority, which is sort of positional power. You know, you're a manager, you're a director, you're a project head of the project, whatever it is. So positional power or you are an authority. So you are seen as somebody who has expertise in that area. And I think, you know, we are not always in authority. We're not always got that role in a company, but I think that you have the power to become an authority. So if I think about us, I haven't had a head of HR job in a big corporate, but I would argue that we are an authority on career development because we have really focused on that area and we've done a lot of work on that area and we've written books on it. But that's, that is something that we. No one said to us. You can or can't do that. We decided to do that, and we've become an authority in that area. I do like the idea that that is something that's in all of our control. You know, we might not be in authority, but we can all become an authority, and that has influence over others. So I like that. That stuck with me because I felt it was quite, you know, it's far more liberating than the ladder, right? The ladder's all about being the authority because of positional power. And I find this thought more liberating. But the watch out is the fact that we are influenced by these things, you know, particularly people who are in authority. So they've got that positional power. You know, that can be everything from they're a senior director or they're a doctor or they're a lot. You know, these things where we put labels on people because of. We see them as someone who is in authority. But just because they are in authority does not mean that what they say you have to go along with or believe or I think just having a bit of a pause and saying, just because you are in authority, does that mean I really want to be influenced by you? And just asking yourself that question, because intuitively that does have an impact on us. But if you pause and just question, but do I really want to be influenced by you just because you're in authority? I think it's quite a good behavior to sort of build in the way that you think and the way that you want to be influenced by things. So what surprised you then? What was something you were like, oh, didn't expect that.
- [10:32]
B
There was an example that he shared about shopping trolleys or shopping carts, as I think they're described in the U.S. it sort of surprised me and felt really memorable is I often. I think maybe sometimes we'll make the mistake of thinking if you have a good idea for something that will create influence, like, if the quality of the idea is good, that's good enough. So I'll share an idea with you, and I'll be like, I feel like I'm really confident in this idea. And actually by me sharing the idea, that will influence you, because as long as I share it in the right way, it's a good idea. But this example sort of proves that a good idea is often not good enough to persuade people to influence people, particularly around, I guess, behavior change or kind of doing something different. And the shopping trolley example is like years and years ago. There's kind of basically the guy, he owned some supermarkets and he went and watched his customers, which I always think is a really smart way to think about it. Influence, like go and spend time with people. We sometimes talk about, like empathy experiences, you know, spend time observing, watching how do people actually behave rather than claim they behave, which often there's quite a big difference between those things. And from kind of spending time in his supermarkets, he realized that people's baskets, which is all people had at that time, when they got too full, obviously they got too heavy, and then you spend less money, you kind of stop shopping. And he invented like the shopping trolley. And I was like, amazing. What, what an innovation. And you would imagine that idea would speak for itself. I'm like, you shouldn't have to influence people. Surely you're just like, but look, it's like bigger and on wheels, a bigger basket on wheels. But nobody used them, so people didn't use them because people would literally walk past them. And everybody like defaults back to kind of old behavior. And the way that he got people, the way that he influenced and persuaded people to at least give them a try, was he basically used his own people to then go and basically role model the behavior that he was looking for. And so then I think it does need to be a good idea because if you go and try it and it doesn't work, then obviously it does fall down. But I thought it was a really useful reminder as somebody who loves coming up with ideas, that sort of ideas alone are often not enough. You, you need to get people kind of trying it and you need to think about how do you make it easy to do that? How can you get other people role modeling it, those kind of early adopters. And sometimes you might have to think really creatively about what that looks like. And that can start the influence and persuasion that then gives your ideas the kind of legs that you're looking for. So, yeah, I think, I mean, partly probably because I've worked in a supermarket, but a. I just loved the example. I thought it was a really interesting story and I could really connect it to kind of the work, the work that we do where sometimes I think I would be a bit guilty of sometimes thinking, well, this is what we've come up with is so brilliant, it'll be fine. So brilliant. Why would people not want to use this? Whereas you're like, okay, actually we've got to work a bit harder. It was a good reminder.
- [13:32]
A
There was one thing that I was like, that is a good point, which is the kind of get a small yes to a bigger yes I was like, oh, I'd forgotten about that point. So again, in the video book, there's this example given about they wanted people to put like a big sign outside their house about, like, was it about environmental things or something? Recycling, I can't remember. They wanted people to make a big sign and people just wouldn't do that because, you know, who wants a giant sign outside their lovely house? Yeah. And so, you know, that was a big ask and they got a big no. So what they did instead in the experiment was they knocked at the houses and they said, oh, you know, would you support this campaign we're doing by putting like a small sticker in your window? And because that was a smaller ask, they got more yeses. But the really interesting thing is when they went back to those house like a week or two later and said, you know, thank you for your support, would you be willing to put this sign in your garden to help us? Far more people said yes. So I think at work, if there's a big ask, maybe don't go in first with the big ask. Think about what would be a smaller ask that is more likely to lead to a yes. And then you've kind of got that small commitment, and it means that then when you go in with a slightly bigger ask, you're starting from a slightly different place. I'd sort of forgotten that point and I thought that's quite a good way because sometimes you just focus on the big thing that you want and then you get a no. And it's a bit. You feel a bit defeated by it, but kind of going, well, if that's what I want, what's the first thing I'm going to ask for to almost like, warm the conversation up and then I can go back to that person for the bigger thing. So moving on to action, then, what are you going to do differently as a result of having watched this video book?
- [15:07]
B
Well, one of the things that did stand out for me was exactly what you've just described around. Small actions lead to significant actions. And he describes in particular, if you do want to influence someone to do something, if they have an action that is sort of consistent, really active and public, like, you know, like you've actually shared an action. I guess it's like sharing a video book on LinkedIn. That's a public forum. I bet it's a hypothesis, but I bet if you share that you're part of the video book club on LinkedIn, you are much more likely to watch all of the video books just because you have Publicly committed, even though no one's watching you or holding you to account.
- [15:52]
A
I am everybody. I am. Yeah.
- [15:53]
B
Apart from Helen. Apart from Helen, who somehow is watching you all. So I was thinking about, oh, I wonder what this could mean for how we approach career development. So often we do in our workshops and in our programs we will talk about small actions. So I was like, oh, that's a good thing. So rather than us saying, we might talk about strengths based feedback as a good thing. But then we would always drill down to it. One small action you can take is ask your manager or a colleague 3 words to describe me at my best. Or rather than saying explore your values, we would say write down three things that matter to you at work. So I was like, oh, that's good. So I think we do the small action thing. Well, what I don't think we do as well is the making it public. So often at the end of a workshop I will say to people, at the end of a programme I will often say to people, you know, share in the chat now the one action you're going to take. And I get some people doing that, but way kind of fewer than I would have in that group. And so I'm not getting that many people to share publicly their action. And then as a result I'm probably influencing those people less than I would want to because I want those people to go and take those actions. And I remember the example in the video book of Bob Cialdini was trying to get his students parents to fill out a form and basically none of them did it because who likes filling out a form? And then he changed his approach where he said to the parents, if you fill out this form, your kid will get one extra point like in their assignment or whatever it was. And I was like, oh, that's interesting. You're just giving people like a sort of a small motivator to do something that you want them to do. You're trying to influence them to do it. And I was thinking, oh, there's no payoff really, there's no promise or no payoff that I give people as part of our learning to share their action. I just basically say, I do say share it. And if you share it, you're more likely to commit to it. Like sharing works, but there's no immediate kind of payoff, there's no kind of in the moment payoff. And so I was thinking, oh, like how could I end those sessions differently? That would mean, let's say 25% of people share their small action. Now what would it take for me to influence 85% of those people to share their small action? So I was thinking maybe that would be for everyone who shares their action. Could we then immediately send them something for free? Could we send them a short version of Gremlins, like how to overcome your confidence Gremlins? Could we share with them some exclusive content that you only get if you've kind of shared your action? So I hadn't quite got to the what I would then give that people would really value because I think it's got to be something like everybody wants one more point on their assignment, right? So it's a really. I like how simple and easy and compelling that is. And so I hadn't quite got yet to what our thing would be, but I did like the psychology of that and I believed that that was a win win. It's a win for us if people go away and take action like we're influencing people to take action because it will create a snowball effect of development and learning. And I sort of believe that I am influencing people for the right reasons. Like it felt like a good thing to influence.
- [19:04]
A
So I did have the persuasion thing as well. But I think one of the actions I would like to take is one of the principles that we haven't talked about too much yet actually is reciprocation. So if I help someone, they are more likely to help me. So I can influence them by giving first. And I kind of knew that we talked about that before. It's something that comes up in Adam Grant's work on kind of give and take. And we have this principle in our work called people helping people, which you know, is sort of based on that, that people like to give and givers get more. So I kind of already knew that. But the thing that I, the thing that I took from the video was that the timing is really important. So if you are giving to somebody with the intent I think of influencing and I don't think all giving is with the intent of influencing, but if you are giving with the intent of influencing, then the timing of that is important. So I'm not sort of going to give to Sarah on a Monday and then in two weeks time make an ask. I just sort of need to think about, well, when is Sarah going to be almost like most receptive to reciprocation and just think a little bit more, a little bit more intentionally about who I'm giving to and what I'm giving and when I'm giving because I think I'm I like giving it feel. You know, giving feels good. But if I want to influence, then I just need to be a bit more intentional. That's probably just the action I've taken away from it. So that is the end of today. We would love to hear your reflections if you've been watching the video book. So you can either see email us those thoughts and insights, we're Helenand Sarahquidlycareers.com or you can join the Community conversation, which is happening on LinkedIn Live this week, the week of the podcast on Thursday. So we'd love to see you there and hear what you've got to say if you want to join that. And we also want to say a big thank you to Litvideo Books, who have made it possible for everyone to learn in the Squiggly Careers Video Book Club because they've given you all free access to their video books for two months. So don't worry if you haven't watched it yet. You've got until the end of February to get access to the video books.
- [20:58]
B
Next week we'll be talking about burnout and stress, which I promise will be more fun than it sounds. So join us for that. But that's everything for today. Thank you so much for listening and we'll be back with you again soon. Bye for now.
- [21:09]
A
Bye, everyone.