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- [00:03]
A
Hi, I'm Helen. And I'm Sarah.
- [00:05]
B
And you're listening to week three of the Squiggly Careers Video Book Club. So this is the series that we are running in association with Lit Video Books in January, where Lit Video Books have given everybody who's part of the video book club free access to their library of video books. And we have selected four to focus on. Four that we weren't necessarily that familiar with beforehand, that we have watched for everybody. And we've tried to take our insights and think how they would apply to career development. But you can also watch it along too and get involved. So this week our focus is on burnout. That is the video book that we have been watching. So today in this episode, Sarah and I are going to talk about our takeouts from watching the video book and what we found interesting and useful. And then tomorrow you're going to hear a conversation with Sarah and one of the authors of Burnout, Amelia Nagoski.
- [00:55]
A
So it's worth saying with this video book that the focus isn't really burnout at work. It's more the systemic causes of burnout. And their focus is in particular on women, why women might experience burnout. And so I think if you are sort of curious to learn more about that, there's some really interesting research and they kind of go way, way, way beyond work and into kind of lots of different areas of life. If you're sort of more interested in burnout at work, I think you can watch the first chapter and probably listen to our conversations and you'll probably get what you need to apply to kind of your job and your, your kind of day to day work. So it is, it is quite a different video book where there's some surprises along the way made. Helen and I kind of, we were like, oh, okay, this is quite different to maybe what we would normally focus on and so kind of have a go. I think it's one of those where you sort of have to just see what you think, see whether it works for you or not. But I do think some of the ideas are really useful once you kind of connect the dots between the research that they've kind of drawn together and done themselves and then how you can apply that in your day to day.
- [02:05]
B
And the them is two sisters, so they are twins. The book has been written by twins. So you get to kind of see the sort of twins talking through their insights. One separate thing which has nothing to do with burnout really, but it was more something that I found useful yesterday. So I Watched this video book when I was on the train going into London and I thought it was really good. So I logged into like the lit video books and then I was making my notes on at the same time and, you know, it was on my phone, so the screen was like hovering over my notes so I could watch it at the same time. So I opened my notes app on my phone and then the little video was just sitting on the top of it. And I actually found that really useful so that I could just type, type of my notes as I was watching. I was like, oh, that's actually quite a useful, efficient way of learning. I liked it.
- [02:46]
A
Yeah, that is good. And you can. With the video books, you can download them before commuting, so. So, you know, you don't need wifi. So I did that actually for a few of them when I knew I'd got Train Journey. So that's good. And actually you're right because I found I was often watching them at home on my laptop and I would have to pause or be like, oh, I just need to write that down. Or I just need to go back over that bit. That would have helped me actually to be kind of simultaneously making notes. I do find with the video books, actually, I definitely engaged with them the most when I was making notes, writing things down, which we know, we know you learn more from that. But the minute I just sort of relaxed too much and almost like sat back in my chair and just watched it, I got distracted. I was like, oh, I need to just do this, or what about this? And I find it quite hard. I find it quite hard to just stick with it. Whereas when I was like, no, what's standing out for me? What's surprising me? What action am I going to take? And then actually almost to be able to do that, I had to get rid of the distractions. It's quite interesting, I think, kind of the process, because it's like a new way of learning. You have to sort of figure out like how. How to make sure you are actually learning from it rather than just a few times. I was like, I'm watching a squirrel out of my window and I've just missed the last five minutes.
- [03:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And so Sarah and I have watched all the video books with three questions in mind. And the questions are, what statement has stuck? What surprised you? And what are you going to put into action? And I would say whether you watch the ones that we've recommended or any of the other lit video books in the library, just to be A bit more intentional about your watching and learning. I think it's quite useful to do it with those three questions in mind. So, Sarah from Burnout, solving your stress cycle, what was something that stuck?
- [04:24]
A
Well, there was a phrase they used which was meaning is something that you make. So one of the points they make in burnout is that you're less likely to burn out if you are connected to something bigger than yourself. And that doesn't have to mean saving the world, but that I suppose does mean that you kind of feel that you are contributing in some way. So that might be. You've got a very clear sense of legacy. Like they use the word legacy. Like, if I've managed to do these things through the work that I do, I will feel good about that. It can be to do with community. And actually they use a phrase that we use, which is they say a good way to figure out your meaning in a very sort of practical way is just to ask yourself, what do we want people to say about us? And I was like, oh, okay, yeah, I think that is a good starting point. And also I could quickly then connect the dots because I was really watching this kind of the work lenses thinking, well, what do I want people to say about the work that we do at Squiggly Careers? And amazing if. And then I can connect those dots to go. I want people to say it's useful. I want people to recommend it by saying, this has really helped me. This is like practically made a difference to how I approach a career conversation or an interview or increasing my confidence. It definitely resonates with me that when you are feeling more stressed, if you go back to the why, like, why does this matter to me? Often you can find your way through those more kind of stressful moments because it gives you that kind of boost of motivation. So you might be thinking, oh, it has been a really busy couple of days. Or I don't know if it's you and I. Usually we've over committed. We were doing too much. We had that chat before we even started this podcast. But I was like, oh, but you know what? If we do things that are useful and that people use in their work, that's great. That's what we are kind of here to do. So I found that really helpful. And it reminded me actually of a quote that I'll come back to in a second from Natalie Campbell. So Natalie, who is the co chief executive of Baloo, which is a water brand, which I think they're either a social enterprise or a kind of Community partnership. So they give all their profits, I think, to water charity. She ran to be, like, mayor of London. She's really inspirational. She'd been on the podcast before. She gave us a quote in her best piece of career advice for your Coach U, which I think has that same kind of sense of when you're thinking about purpose and meaning. And she says, start by letting go of the idea of finding your purpose. It is not in lost property somewhere. It is in your consciousness. So the first step is listen to the moments that bring you the most joy, comfort and ease. This is where the core of your purpose resides. And then she goes on and kind of describes a bit more about it. But I was, you know, when you hear common threads and themes in different places, I don't know, it kind of reinforces to you, like, you know, Nasty wasn't talking about burnout, but, like, she's come to some of the same conclusions as maybe the research. So that stood out. And I really like that phrase. Meaning is something you make. What about you?
- [07:19]
B
Well, the statement, it was do a thing, which I'll come back to and I'll explain why it stuck for me. But on the meaning, because I wrote that bit down as well. I found it useful. And I liked. They talked about three ways that you can get meaning. So kind of legacy. So I guess the dent that I have made through my work, that kind of idea, services at others. Meaning because I make a difference other people and also kind of connection, like I'm part of a community. I just thought, you know, if people are thinking, oh, how do I get to meaning? I wrote those things down. I thought that was quite useful. And they also said, as well as asking the question, that Sarah talked about the kind of obituary thing. So imagine you're sort of 90 on a park bench. What would you want people to say about you? All that kind of stuff. Just interesting, isn't it? What does meaning mean to you? And if you've got more meaning, it might help you to manage your stress. I definitely took that away. The statement that stuck. The do a thing. So they talked about learned helplessness, which is something that Martin Seligman talks about in his work on kind of optimism. The learned helplessness is when we're in a situation, and I think we kind of feel like we can't influence it, and so we don't take action over time. And so maybe you're at work, you're going through a restructure, or maybe you feel like you've got a bad relationship with your Manager or, you know, learned helplessness means, like, over time, we just don't feel like we can have control over that situation or influence it in any way. And I think lots of people have that. Sometimes they're kind of just like, I've just got to accept it, I've just got to get on with it. And then it's a. It's a continual source of stress. And what I liked was that they said basically the best thing to do in that situation is do a thing. And it doesn't have to be the thing that solves the situation. So it's not like go and, you know, fix relationship with your manager or, you know, you don't have to resolve the restructure or whatever is going on, but actually just doing one thing, some little thing that's in your control, which might be, I don't know, even take a day's holiday and go and do some learning or go and ask for a mentor or something. It doesn't have to be that the thing that solves the source of stress, but just taking some kind of action can be a reaction, a positive reaction to a situation where you feel very out of control. Just do a thing, pretty much anything. But doing nothing means that you're stuck in this kind of stress situation. And doing a thing is one way that you feel more control over it and over what you're doing.
- [09:34]
A
We've talked about it before on the podcast with people like Jem Moss. I think we talked about burnout before. But it is something to take seriously because when you look at the consequences of burnout, whether that's kind of in a different part of your life or at work over and over again, it shows that if you get burnt out, you get to the point where you have a decreased sense of accomplishment. So you just feel like what you do doesn't matter. You're less creative, your processing capacity goes down, you're not as able to solve problems and you'll. You can't do large scale thinking. And when we've talked about it before on the podcast, I think I'm never sure. I've been kind of fully burnt out where I've needed to sort of do something very dramatic in terms of taking a break. But every time I've got close to, I think burnout, I do notice that all of those behaviors kind of diminish, you know, my ability to zoom out, to think big, to think creatively. You sort of get smaller in sort of every way. And I think if you can notice that happening, because I do Think it tends to creep up. You know, it's sort of lots of repeated action. So if you're at work, for example, it might be, you feel like a bit overwhelmed, but then the next week you're still feeling a bit overwhelmed, and then the next month you're still, you know, sort of like. It tends to be like that. And I think gradually, and maybe before you even notice it, it has got to the point where you're like, I can't remember the last time I didn't feel really overwhelmed. And I don't feel very creative and I can't think big and I'm struggling to solve problems. I think the more we can spot those signals for ourselves and also for each other, I think it can be really helpful to see in each other, the more we can sort of support ourselves and support other people too. So what surprised you? Did anything surprise you?
- [11:14]
B
Well, so in the first chapter, and again, that's probably the one that, as we said, is most relevant to work. There's quite a lot in that. Just this idea of the stress cycle kind of surprised me, I think. So they talk about when you're getting stressed. The thing that sort of stuck with me was that you need to discharge the stress. But it's just this idea that if you don't build into a busy day or a stressful week, if you don't build some way of discharging stress and like, finding meaning is one of them, exercise could be another one. Like, I think we all might have different ways in which we discharge stress. And they do, they do talk through some. Some ways. Then basically your body can't complete the stress cycle. And what they say is that your body basically then holds onto that stress and it can result in health problems. And, you know, some of the things that Sarah just talked about there, I think just literally thinking, like, how am I discharging stress? And I think I talk about the power of, like, exercise and. And whether that can be a physical thing or actually just sitting at your desk and kind of, you know, like tense breathing or even tens muscles up. That's one of the examples that they give. Like tense all your muscles up for like a minute and then letting go. So it doesn't have to be like crazy physical exercise. But it did just make me think, you know, I go on about my peloton all the time. I'm actually dressed to peloton today. But for me, that is actually. I think that's part of how I complete my stress cycle. Like, because I get on there and I. And afterwards I just feel like, ah, I can get back to it now. And yeah, I just like that idea of if we don't complete this cycle, then our body holds onto the stress and that has negative outcomes. So think about this thing and as just a way of kind of keeping your body healthy, just kind of discharging whatever's built up. That kind of just definitely stuck with me.
- [12:48]
A
Yeah, the same for me, I think it was this idea of like releasing the stress. It's a different process to kind of coping with stress in the moment. I think that's what they are very clear about. You've sort of got to disconnect coping with the stress in the moment. And I think sometimes we would think that's it, I've coped with the stressful moment. But actually you need a separate process which does the kind of the releasing. I was talking to Helen about this before and I was like, let's imagine. And obviously this is. Imagine I'm really annoying Helen. We're having a difficult conversation that feels stressful. We would have those conversations and I might think, oh, okay, well, I felt like I stayed really open in that conversation. I dealt with it. I dealt with maybe some hard to hear feedback. Well, and we got to some good outcomes. And so I might think, oh, that's okay, it was stressful, but I did the right things and you might kind of feel good about yourself. And I think the bit that I wouldn't have then always thought about is going, ah, yes, but I've not released that stress. I did well in that moment and that is a good thing. So, you know, at work I think we can all identify those moments that feel stressful to some extent, depending on what that scale is from a very difficult manager, because it tends to be people related or it could be workload, I guess, rather than kind of people. It could just be like, I dealt with the stress of my day, something new came in that then I had to change my priorities. And so we might almost go, well, I did it. I dealt with that stress and you did. But then thinking about, okay, well, what action do I need to take to sort of release that stress so that it doesn't build up over time? And then if it builds up, that's when you're going to get to burnout. It did really remind me of just how important it is to find active rest. And we've talked before about active rest. And active rest can be. And they do give this an example and maybe you're making something, could be anything Kind of creative. So actually I had some people in workshops this week talking to me about knitting, how much they like knitting and gaming. So knitting, gaming, both good examples of active rest as well as the kind of more classic examples like go for a run, lift some weights, go and play table tennis. I say that because me and my partner bought each other a table tennis table for Christmas. That's going to be my active rest in 2025. I'm very excited about it. But jokes to one side, that would probably be good for me. So almost going. Do you know what? That has been quite difficult. I am just going to go and play table tennis for five minutes or 10 minutes. I'd have to be fully in it because obviously I'd want to win. Sarah's quite competitive. Quite competitive. But that would be a good release of sort of stress for me. I guess it is potentially some of the logic behind why for a while workplaces went crazy with like the we're going to put all of these fun things in the office. There probably is some rationale behind why that might be good, but not if that's a substitute for actual meaningful work and being paid well, A table tennis table doesn't make up for that. But actually if all the hygiene factors are in place, you know, I saw a company recently, one I went to visit earlier this year where they have loads of board games and actually I saw loads of people playing board games and just having fun. So it wasn't in the uk.
- [15:48]
B
What's your favourite board game? Sarah?
- [15:49]
A
Interesting. I don't love board games. I'd rather play a game, you know, like don't. Tennis. Yeah, I actually do like charades because my 7 year olds, I feel like.
- [16:00]
B
That'S not a board game.
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A
Oh, is it? Does that not count?
- [16:03]
B
That is, that is an active.
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A
I love that.
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B
I love how you've taken board game and turned it into an active.
- [16:10]
A
I feel like you've asked that question because you are. What, what's your favorite board game?
- [16:13]
B
Well, we, you know, we're. I'm like board gamey because that's the sort of thing that I would do as a family. Like play a board game? No, like my son who is like the ultimate strategist, like beats me on everything. So any board game he's just got. So it's like Cluedo wins every time, like feel like every board game. But yeah, I like, I like all board games.
- [16:29]
A
Something.
- [16:31]
B
So what might you do as a result of having watched this video book?
- [16:36]
A
I think the key action for me was recognizing the different ways to complete the stress cycle. So it's not like there's one way you can quickly complete the stress cycle by some four box breathing. So, you know, if you just wanted to do a bit of decompressing and like, I know that, but I don't think I do that particularly regularly. But also making more of a commitment to active rest. I think in 2025. It sounds like a small thing, but I've recently moved house and I got active rest in place close to where I used to live, so it was convenient to active rest. And so it really worked for me. And then I've moved and I sort of need to rediscover what that might look like just because actually there are some practical constraints that make it a bit harder where I am now. Like we only have one car. I don't livers close to somewhere that I can just walk to and I just need to think about it. But I, I know we always know exercise is good, but you know, when you watch these things and it just really reminds you it's like basically do anything, do any exercise. And I think it's so easy to get into the habit of not. I'm good at walking. Like, I do go out for a walk, but I almost don't count that as exercise because I think, well, my heart rate never goes up for a start and I'm almost using that more as a kind of a getting some energy and like moving my body because I'm about to start work and it's maybe like my. My own version of a commute if I'm working at home. And I don't think that's. I don't think a walk releases my stress cycle because usually I'm thinking about work or I'm kind of preparing for work and it's at the start of a day, not at the end of a day. And so I think I need to end my days releasing stress. And I don't think I do that at the moment because I think often I'm working where, you know, I will just walk downstairs and maybe not have that boundary of like I've gone and done something, not kind of done some active rest. This one combined with talking to Katie about change, like, I'm definitely starting to do that kind of fresh start effect of like, right, you know, and it always starts with like, right, right in 2025, I will do these things and also try to be really realistic about how to make that happen rather than kind of too, too vague. What about you?
- [18:43]
B
Mine was the meaning thing. So Emily, one of the sisters, was very articulate because she could just say what her meaning is in like. And I thought, oh, I know what our company's, like, meaning is about kind of making careers better for everybody. But my personal meaning, I think, might be slightly. Well, just a little bit more individual. That. And I don't think I could. Well, I can't say it now if you said, what gives you meaning at work? And so I thought, oh, I started to write it down, like I said when I was on the train, because I had my notes open, I started to write something down. I was like, it's getting there. And then one of the things that they said is, you can ask other people. And I could say to you, where do you see me get meaning in my work? And I might ask a couple of people that and just see if I can get to a statement that I can identify with that I go, yeah, that's why I do what I do. That's the thing that gives me the most meaning. I'd like to take that as an action away from it.
- [19:30]
A
It's a good way of doing it. Because I was like, oh, yeah. If I was thinking about you, and obviously company missions and purposes are always sort of more universal, like, oh, we want to make squiggly quiz better for everyone. That just doesn't. It's not going to be an individual statement. And also I was thinking, well, for you, I'd be like, oh, I'd be really surprised if there wasn't something more people y in there. And I sort of expect there to be something around, like, energy. I'm like, the energy and the kind of people and bringing people together and the energy that you get from that. I was like, that feels more like you. I think mine would be about ideas, like, ideas that are useful for people. You know, like, probably like, as simple as that. That ability to kind of do something maybe that hasn't been done before, but that then you see people use and that you're like, oh, yeah. People could point to that and be like, well, you've created something here that's kind of made a difference. Because when I think about what I'm proud of, it's always where we have created something. Probably also I'd have something about, like, creating with other people. Because my. My favorite creations, the ideas that I feel most connected to are never the ones that I've done solo. They're always ones that we've worked on together. So maybe it's about kind of collaborative creation. But it's a good question. You say. So you're going. Makes you think it through.
- [20:36]
B
I've added energy into my work in progress statement. So thank you for that little build. So that is it for today. Don't forget that tomorrow you've got Sarah, who's going to be talking to Amelia just to get her kind of direct perspective on the work and also make those connections to career development. And then next week is the last week of the Video book club, where we are going to be looking at Predictably Irrational, a video book by Dan Ariely. So we'll be diving into that. And then I've got a conversation with Dan about that as well.
- [21:04]
A
So that's everything for this week. Back to you again soon. Bye for now. Sam.