Squiggly Careers Podcast #475: Ask the Expert – How to Say No with Dr. Sunita Sah

Date: April 15, 2025
Host: Sarah Ellis
Guest: Dr. Sunita Sah, author of Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes

Episode Overview

In this episode, Sarah Ellis chats with Dr. Sunita Sah about the challenges and importance of saying “no” in professional and personal contexts. Drawing from her new book, Defy, Dr. Sah unpacks why defiance is not a negative trait, how it aligns with our values, and practical steps and mindsets for building this skill. The conversation is rich with actionable advice, memorable quotes, and compassionate guidance for anyone struggling to set boundaries at work.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Saying No Is So Hard

Default to Compliance

• Childhood Conditioning: Many of us are socialized from a young age to equate being "good" with obedience.
• Compliance as Default: Our brains become wired to comply, making saying no uncomfortable, even when we wish we could act otherwise.
  • “Our brains become wired to comply, in a way. … when we grow up, we're still operating on that system.” – Dr. Sah [02:06]
• Insinuation Anxiety:
  • The discomfort we experience stems from not wanting to signal distrust or incompetence toward others, especially authority figures.
  • “When you say no to someone, it's really sort of saying that you don't believe what they're suggesting that you do… I call that psychological process ‘insinuation anxiety’.” – Dr. Sah [02:50]

2. Reframing Defiance

Defiance as Acting on Your Values

• New Definition: Defiance isn't negative—it's simply aligning actions with your values under pressure.
  • “My definition of defiance is simply acting in alignment with your values when there is pressure to do otherwise. It's a skill set.” – Dr. Sah [05:45]
• Problems with Compliance: Over-compliance, particularly in workplace settings, can have serious negative consequences (e.g., medical errors not being challenged in healthcare).

3. The Five Stages of Defiance

Dr. Sah identifies five stages to help structure the process of saying no (Defy):

1. Tension

   • The internal discomfort when external pressure conflicts with your values.
   • Can manifest physically (e.g., stomach unease, dry mouth, headaches).

2. Acknowledge Tension to Self

   • Instead of dismissing your discomfort, internally recognize it: “There's something I'm not comfortable with.”

3. Vocalize Tension

   • Express concerns or ask clarifying questions to someone else.
   • “This is not about confrontation. This is about curiosity in a way. Curiosity and clarification.” – Dr. Sah [07:45]
   • Vocalizing increases odds you'll follow through with your values.

4. Threat of Non-Compliance

   • State your intention not to comply, e.g., “I don't think I can do this.”
   • Important to repeat this if pushed.

5. Act of Defiance

   • Follow through in alignment with your values (“Your act of defiance”).
   • “If you can get to stage five… that tension just melts away. It feels really good to act in alignment with your values.” – Dr. Sah [09:15]

4. Values and Confidence in Defiance

• Values as Compass:

  • Values rarely change and can be a strong filter for decisions.
  • Even deeply held values can be overridden by pressure to conform.

• The “Defiance Compass” Questions:

  • Who am I?
  • What kind of situation is this?
  • What does a person like me do in this situation?
  • “Because, you know, so often we hear people saying, ‘this isn't me’… But if you are continuously doing that, it does become you.” – Dr. Sah [11:56]

• Defiance Is a Skill, Not a Trait:

  • “We think it's a personality trait and actually it's just a practice. It's a skill set. And the more that we practice it, our confidence and ability increases.” – Dr. Sah [12:18]
  • Practice rewires compliance pathways and builds confidence.

5. Practical Preparation & Small Steps

• Anticipate Scenarios:
  • Make a list of likely situations where saying no might be needed (e.g., refusing unrealistic deadlines).
• Start Small:
  • Begin with less intimidating situations—a co-worker instead of a manager.
  • Use scripts and “nocabulary” tailored to your voice.
  • “You can start really small… perhaps just saying no to a manager's deadline. That's a really small act of defiance.” – Sarah [15:10]
• Practice Builds “Muscle Memory”:
  • Quote often attributed to Bruce Lee: “Under duress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.” – Dr. Sah [15:56]

6. Managing Risks and Judging When to Defy

• Defiance Is Rarely Risk-Free:
  • Weigh “is it safe enough?” and “is it effective enough?” for you personally.
• Cost of Compliance:
  • Not speaking up against your values incurs psychological and physical costs (stress, regret).
  • “Not speaking up… also has a cost. And it has quite a large cost. It's not just neutral.” – Dr. Sah [20:05]
• Defiance Calculus:
  • Balance short-term consequences with long-term wellbeing.
  • Gradual or “conscious compliance” is valid—sometimes you must defer defiance but keep your “no” in waiting.

7. The Power of the Pause and Third-person Self-talk

• Pause Before Responding:
  • Give yourself permission to pause for seconds, minutes, or days before replying to requests.
  • “You want to take what I call the power of the pause… you can just close your eyes and ask yourself… And you can talk to yourself in that third person.” – Dr. Sah [25:20]
• Third-person Self-talk:
  • Creates psychological distance to assess alignment with values.

8. Making Defiance Positive in Organizations

• Defiance Fuels Creativity:
  • Compliant cultures stifle innovation and honest error reporting.
  • Leaders can model safe, values-aligned defiance for teams.
  • “How much creativity can you have if everybody's complying?… For innovation, disruption, new ideas… you need to have defiance.” – Dr. Sah [29:36]

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “Our brains become wired to comply… when we grow up, we're still operating on that system.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [02:06]
• “My definition of defiance is simply acting in alignment with your values when there is pressure to do otherwise.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [05:45]
• “If you can get to stage five of defiance, that tension just melts away.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [09:15]
• “We think [defiance] is a personality trait and actually it's just a practice. It's a skill set.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [12:18]
• “Under duress, we don't rise to the level of our expectations, we fall to the level of our training.” – Bruce Lee (quoted by Dr. Sah) [15:56]
• “Not speaking up… also has a cost. And it has quite a large cost. It's not just neutral.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [20:05]
• “Defiance is not a personality, it's a practice. And once we do that, even if we've been wired to comply… it isn't our destiny.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [27:54]
• “Sometimes the system is set up in such a way that it makes it very difficult for people to defy, to communicate, to do their best work and live up to their best potential… it's not you, it's the system.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [30:44]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Saying No and Why It’s Hard – [01:00] to [03:52]
• Defining Defiance & The Five Stages – [04:52] to [09:15]
• Defiance, Values, and Confidence – [09:18] to [14:08]
• Practical Scripts & Starting Small – [14:08] to [17:24]
• Evaluating Risk: Safe/Effective Enough – [17:24] to [22:07]
• Cost of Compliance – [22:07] to [23:59]
• The Power of the Pause & Self-talk – [25:20] to [26:51]
• Mindset Shift: Defiance as Skill, Not Trait – [27:46] to [28:42]
• Defiance in Organizations & Teams – [28:42] to [30:18]
• Career Advice: “It’s Not You, It’s the System” – [30:44] to [32:00]

Final Takeaways & Career Advice

• Reframe defiance as a positive, learnable practice, not a flaw or personality trait.
• Small acts of saying no can be powerful—start by practicing in low-risk settings.
• Cost of compliance is real—psychologically and physically—so don’t ignore your tension.
• Pause and reflect before giving your answer; use third-person self-talk for distance.
• It’s not always on you; sometimes it’s the system that inhibits change—know when and how you can influence it, and when it’s time to consciously comply or plan an exit.

“Sometimes the system is set up in such a way that it makes it very difficult for people to defy, to communicate, to do their best work and live up to their best potential… it's not you, it's the system.” – Dr. Sunita Sah [30:44]

Recommended for:
Anyone struggling to set boundaries, wishing to act more in line with their values at work or in life, or looking to develop assertiveness as a skill—this episode offers both inspiration and tangible steps to get started.