#477 Why Your Energy is More Important Than Your Time

Summary

Squiggly Careers Podcast #477 — Why Your Energy is More Important Than Your Time

Hosts: Sarah Ellis (A) and Helen Tupper (B)
Date: April 29, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the concept of managing energy instead of just time at work—a response to frequent listener questions about how Sarah and Helen manage to juggle such a diverse and busy set of professional roles. They emphasize that, while they do a lot, they are not “productivity gurus”—rather, they have learned to take energy seriously and design their work lives around it. The discussion covers how energy, not just time, dictates impact and enjoyment at work, and they break down their individual and collaborative strategies for maintaining good energy through perspective, relationships, and environment.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Energy Versus Time Management

• Sarah and Helen emphasize that energy, not just time, should be the focus for career impact and personal well-being.
• Social media can present a skewed version of their work lives—things may look busier and more “high energy” online than they actually feel.
  • Quote (Helen, 01:03): “Social media isn’t always reflective of reality.”
• Neither host wants to be perceived as a “productivity superhuman”—just people who have found energy-centric ways to work.

Timestamps: 00:17–01:54

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2. Taking Energy Seriously

• At Amazing If, weekly team meetings center on sharing “high energy moments” to frame the week positively.
  • Quote (Sarah, 01:54): “We talk about our energy much more than we do our time or being busy, you know, like the busyness trap.”
• Both hosts prioritize ending each workday with enough energy left for their personal lives.

Timestamps: 01:54–03:56

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3. From Time to Energy: Shifts from Past Work Culture

• Helen describes her previous approach at Microsoft as “meetings and minutes,” and how her impact was once measured in hours rather than energy.
  • Quote (Helen, 04:26): “I would have been in Microsoft, I think I probably thought more about my time... the currency of my work was like how many meetings am I in and how many hours and minutes am I working a week?”
• Both now see work as a “two-way energy exchange.” Not all meetings or tasks give back energy, and awareness of this matters.

Timestamps: 03:56–07:18

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4. Tracking and Visualizing Energy

• Energy isn't just “high” or “low”—neutral moments matter too.
  • Quote (Sarah, 07:18): “Neutral matters. So it's not just all about like high energy, kind of low energy. It is also about having those kind of moments of just like neutral...”
• Suggested exercise: track during the week when you’re giving and receiving energy, and whether exchanges feel balanced.

Timestamps: 07:18–09:25

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5. Personalizing Energy Strategies — Three Key Areas

Helen and Sarah discuss how their different needs and styles manifest in three areas:

a. Perspective (Past, Present, Future)

• Helen: Strongly present-focused. She’s fully “in the moment” and isn’t distracted by the past or the future.
  • Quote (Helen, 11:16): “Every moment that I'm in is the moment in my mind...that means I can just give all my energy to it, and then I'll move from this to the next moment.”
• Sarah: Draws energy from integrating past learning, present action, and future planning. Needs to “connect the dots” across time.
  • Quote (Sarah, 15:06): “The agility of the different time horizons gives me confidence, which gives me energy.”

Interesting contrast: Helen schedules “future thinking” explicitly; Sarah feels drained without that element.

Timestamps: 09:53–17:20

b. Relationships (Energy Through People)

• Sarah: Deep one-to-one, future-focused conversations—usually monthly—spark ideas and energy, followed by solo processing time.
  • Quote (Sarah, 18:11): “Often it's after the conversation that I feel really energized. It's like the hour afterwards...I need some alone time then to process and use that energy usefully.”
• Helen: Gets energy from group interactions, rapid-fire exchanges, newness, and “pinball” encounters—short, unstructured, energizing conversations with many people.
  • Quote (Helen, 22:45): “I am much more like one to many. Put me in a room with lots of people, almost like a human ping pong ball.”

Team Tip: Recognize whose energy needs what kind of interactions and split meeting types, if needed, for everyone’s benefit.

Timestamps: 17:20–26:28

c. Environment (Place, Routine, Variety)

• Helen: Thrives on consistency within a day but likes variety across the week; feels drained switching locations/tasks too often in one day.
  • Quote (Helen, 27:52): “I like the mix over a week, but I quite like it to look the same in a day, if that makes sense.”
• Sarah: Variety is crucial—multiple environments and contexts in a day boost energy. Finds long, static periods draining.
  • Quote (Sarah, 28:56): “If I've been in different spaces during a day, it massively increases my energy.”

Key Takeaway: Experiment with different work settings and routines to discover personal energy patterns.

Timestamps: 26:28–30:22

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6. Beyond Work: Personal Life and Energy Management

• Both stress that post-work energy matters: a depleted workday leaves no energy for family, exercise, or hobbies.
• They proactively block personal walks or breaks in their calendars as non-negotiables.

Timestamps: 30:50–32:13

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7. Practical Tips for Teams and Individuals

• Regularly review your diary for “highs” and “lows” of energy, and draw out an “energy graph” for the week.
• Discuss energy highs/lows openly with your team to design better weeks, meetings, and collaborations.
  • Quote (Sarah, 34:03): “Knowing that just means you can compromise enough within your context, within the teams you're in...”

Bonus: Use team check-ins to identify what gives and drains energy, then adapt schedules and collaboration accordingly.

Timestamps: 32:13–34:30

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Social media isn’t always reflective of reality.” — Helen (01:03)
• “We talk about our energy much more than we do our time or being busy... the busyness trap.” — Sarah (01:54)
• “Our job, our accountability is to turn up with energy.” — Sarah (25:02)
• “It's efficient for me to design a day that looks like same place, same...to get that done. Whereas that isn't efficient for you; your energy is not efficient. It drains without the difference.” — Helen (30:22)
• “Energy equals impact...the big payoff is then the quality of what you are doing.” — Sarah (34:14)
• Playful imagery of Helen as a “human ping pong ball” in group settings versus Sarah’s love for long, deep one-to-one talks.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:17–01:54: Introducing energy-centric work practices and debunking productivity myths
• 03:56–07:18: Realizations from the corporate world; minutes versus energy as “currency”
• 09:53–17:20: Detailed breakdowns of Helen’s “present” and Sarah’s “integrated time horizon” approaches
• 17:20–26:28: How each draws energy from different types of relationships
• 26:28–32:13: The role of physical/work environment in energy maintenance
• 32:13–34:30: Practical team tactics and what energy-awareness means for collaboration

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Actionable Takeaways

• Re-examine how you approach your weekly schedule: focus on energy, not just minutes.
• Identify and seek out the people and situations that give you energy—both inside and outside your current job.
• Visualize and track your energy highs, lows, and neutrals; note patterns, and adapt accordingly.
• Openly discuss energy needs with your team and embrace different styles rather than forcing conformity.

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Final Thoughts

Sarah and Helen underscore that energy management is a personal journey, but self-awareness and team-awareness are force multipliers. Aligning tasks, relationships, and environments to individual energy needs makes room for better work and richer personal lives. The hosts encourage listeners to reflect on their own energy patterns and share their discoveries with the Squiggly Careers community.

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For feedback or to share your own energy insights, Helen and Sarah invite listeners to contact them at [e-mail].

Transcript

[A]

Hi, I'm Sarah.

[B]

And I'm Helen.

[A]

And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Every week we take a different topic to do with work, and we share some ideas and some actions that we just hope are going to help all of us navigate our Squiggly careers with that bit more confidence and control.

[B]

And if you haven't already, make sure that you sign up for our Squiggly Careers in Action weekly newsletter. You'll be able to download the pod sheet that comes with this episode, and you'll also get lots of other links to learn from, too. So today we are going to be talking about energy at work and why managing your energy is more important than just managing your time. I think it's a slightly different episode to your. Bit different because we are answering a question that has come from our audience, which we get asked a lot from people we know, people we don't know, like, how do you find energy for everything that you do? And I think we need to caveat that that maybe a lot of people, they see what we do on social media.

[A]

Maybe, maybe.

[B]

And so there's maybe not many of that.

[C]

Maybe not me see what I do on social media. It's like, how is there so much content going out?

[B]

So kind of caveat that social media.

[C]

Isn'T always reflective of reality.

[B]

And then also, I think, would also like to caveat this episode before we even start with, we are not productivity gurus. And neither of us, I think the.

[A]

Point is, neither do I want to be.

[B]

We don't want to be. We don't want to be. I think that's the point. What we're trying to get across in today's episode are, do we do quite a lot of things? A diverse range of things, yes. Between writing books and running a business and recording a podcast and other stuff, I think we do do quite a wide variety of things. So we'll talk about how we find the energy to do those things, but we are not trying to portray ourselves as some productivity superhuman workers.

[C]

We're just two, hopefully relatively normal people.

[B]

Who have found a way of working that gives us energy. And I think what we want to do is share what we've learned in case that helps you think about how you create energy for the work that you do, too.

[A]

Yeah. I think what is true is that we've both realized that it's really important to take our energy seriously. I think we really care about it. We talk about it a lot. We talk about our energy much more than we do our time or Being busy, you know, like the busyness trap. And actually it's a good reflection of if you think for yourself in your week, how often does like the word energy even show up. So for example, for us in Amazing, if every Monday morning we have our team meeting and part of that team meeting is everybody shares a high energy moment they're looking forward to for that week. So we start our week by asking people, what's your high energy moment going to be? Now that might be something they're doing outside of work, might be something they're doing in work, but we're already kind of framing our working week with energy. And then you and I, I think, are both very aware of our energy levels and, and then what they look like and then the impact it has if they're not where we would like them to be. So I think it's just been something that over time we talked about a lot more. And we're also very aware, I think, of how much energy we end our days with. So I think we talk a lot about energy in work and like during work. But I think it's as important to think about when you get to the end of a Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, what does that energy level look like for you? Because if every day your battery is completely drained when you finished the work part of your day, you don't have energy for anything else. All the other things that matter to you. And you and I both have had those conversations where we say, well, it is important to us that we've got the energy to exercise, to spend time with friends, for hobbies, for our kids, for the other things that we want to do. And if you're just completely drained at the end of a day or at the end of a week, then all of your sort of non work time comes about like recovery and replenishment, but you're not then giving energy to the kind of other things that are important to you.

[B]

I was trying to think as well about what's maybe changed, that's meant that we've got better at this. Because if I go back sort of five years or so in corporate life, so I would have been in Microsoft, I think I probably thought more about my time in sort of meetings and minutes. So that was sort of like the currency of my work was like how many meetings am I in and how many hours and minutes am I working a week? And how can I make sure that that is like optimal for my impact.

[A]

And all really efficient?

[B]

Yeah, I think I thought about it in that way. Whereas since we have done this I've become much more aware of actually the energy that we have is so important for our impact. It's nothing to do with minutes or meetings. I don't think about that at all. I think about our work depends on us giving energy to other people. So we might be in front of a big audience and we need to create energy. So I can't create energy if I've not got any to start with. So I'm much more aware of the exchange of energy that is going on in my week with the people that might be in our company or the people that we might be working with. And I think actually I could have thought about it like that in Microsoft. I just didn't. I think I got into a sort of a minutes and meetings trap in terms of how I thought about my impact. Whereas if I was going to go back to Microsoft now, I would still now think about the energy exchange in my week and who I was exchanging energy with and how I meant that each day I was kind of starting with as much energy as possible. It just wasn't my frame five years ago.

[A]

I think it was more for me actually for quite a long time. But I think I always felt like a bit of an oddball as a result.

[B]

You?

[A]

Yes, surely not. But I think some of the things that I did and some of the choices that I made actually going back as far as like when I worked in Barclays, I could feel the difference in my energy and then I think I could see the difference in my work in like, you know, my like, you know, finding flow but also like the quality of the work that I was doing and how proud I felt of that work when I started to get into more like, well, what gives me energy and then means I can kind of like you say, give energy to the work that I'm doing to other people, I think I could really feel the difference. And also I didn't like the opposite. So I wasn't as good at coping at like back to back meetings and you know, things that just felt like you were draining and getting depleted. I think I kind of almost like railed and riled against that quite early on. But then it felt very hard to do in those big environments. So you did it? I think I did it in smaller pockets. Some of the things that we're going to talk about I think have been present in my work actually for quite a long time. But now I have more freedom and flexibility to make it kind of more core to how I work.

[B]

I feel like there is More opportunity for you to influence the work that gives you energy than sometimes it is in terms of the minutes and meetings, like my reflections on Microsoft, I might have thought I'm in too many meetings, I'm spending too many minutes doing this.

[C]

But good luck trying to get yourself out of some of those things.

[B]

Whereas when I think about some of.

[C]

The things we're going to talk about.

[B]

Today in terms of energy, I feel like I have much more autonomy over those things. So working with your energy, I think is more in your control than perhaps the whole minutes and meetings type approach.

[A]

So both of us said we find it helpful to think visually about energy. I just think it is quite a visual concept and we sort of imagine our energy going up, down and kind of neutral during a week. And it's important to say, I think that neutral matters. So it's not just all about like high energy, kind of low energy. It is also about having those kind of moments of just like neutral. It's like you're not giving a lot of energy, but it's not draining either. And then it just, you're sort of fine and that's important. So I think the mix of energy across your week matters. So it might even be worth you kind of tracking that for a week or so. Quite an easy thing to track. Like, when do I feel like I'm really receiving energy, maybe from other people? You could do it as like an exchange. When do I feel like I'm receiving it? When do I feel like I'm giving it? Does it feel like that is two way or does it feel like it's one way? If I think about some things that we do, you know, when you get a brilliant audience and you're on a stage, I think the energy exchange can actually be really high. And so actually I've taken loads of energy from that audience and hopefully I've given some too. But also you can sometimes be in some rooms where you're like, wow, giving a lot. I feel like I'm giving a lot. I'm maybe not getting loads in return. Maybe they're just not connecting or our approach is very different to things they've seen before. And so you feel like you're giving loads and loads and loads. And it doesn't mean that it's not valuable for those people, it just means that the exchange is not there. So I think energy exchange is also a kind of interesting one. And we've reflected on three areas and how we approach energy differently because we actually think energy is so personal for everybody. Our Differences are probably more interesting than our similarities. So people say to both of us, how do you have the energy? And actually, the answer to that is quite different. So we've reflected on perspective, relationships and environment and the impact that has on our energy. And we're going to talk about each of those and kind of what contributes to either giving energy or draining it. In case there are some useful things here that you can kind of borrow or try out for yourself.

[B]

Maybe just one more thing before we go into those. Understanding this about each other is really helpful. So it's totally okay for you to have your own way and hopefully you'll pick up some ideas from what we share. But in a team, understanding these different areas, in terms of how do you get energy in these different areas, it's so useful because it helps you to design your day or the meetings that you have or the time that you spend with that person. With that in mind.

[C]

So I'll often be thinking about when.

[B]

I'm spending time with Sarah. How do I make sure that the days that we spend together have some of the things that I know are important to Sarah's energy in otherwise, if I just do it the way I.

[C]

Want it, I basically get a slightly disengaged Sarah by the end of the day. Because it's got to work, both of you. But it is very helpful to know what good looks like for the other person.

[A]

And so I think this first one, we are pretty dramatically different in how we manage our energy. So talk about perspective. Like, what gives you energy in an average working week, you're like, right, I want energy. What perspective do you take? That kind of helps to keep that kind of graph on the high.

[B]

So the simplest way of thinking about perspective, I think, is sort of past, present, future. And so for me, the perspective that is useful for my energy is present. I am very, very present focused. So that means that I don't get distracted by what happened yesterday or what happened last week or it just doesn't enter my mind. I'm not kind of.

[A]

You're so in the moment.

[C]

I'm so in the moment.

[B]

And I'm also not worrying or, no, it's not even worrying. I don't need to go to the future to be like, oh, well, the reason I'm. I don't need to get energy by attaching myself to a future outcome. So the reason that we're recording this podcast today is so that we can help, you know, thousands of people with their energy. I don't need that. I just get energy from this, right.

[C]

Now, this conversation, I'm in it as much as possible.

[B]

And the reason it works for me is I don't have the other noise. I don't have the other noise. And every moment that I'm in is the moment in my mind, if that makes sense. And that means I can just give all my energy to it, and then I'll move from this to the next moment, and that's where I am. So for me, being very present and parking all the stuff around a moment helps me to give as much energy as I can in that moment. And that's really different to you.

[A]

So just for people listening, though, who might be thinking, wow, wow, how that sounds hard to do, you know, like, finding the signal amongst the noise, like letting go of all of the things that are happening, it's quite a hard thing to do. Almost like if you were giving people advice on, like, how to do that, where would you start if you are somebody who does get distracted by all of the noise?

[B]

So I think. I mean, the past thing is. I think that's a very personal. I just. I'm just not anchored to the past at all. That.

[C]

That is just a very, very personal thing. I just. It's gone, it's done.

[B]

So I don't think I have any advice for that. And that's just a. Helen Behavioral thing. I do think it's important to think about the future. Like, I do. I do think that's an important thing to do. But there are moments that I almost diarize it because my head doesn't go naturally there. I know that I have moments in my diary, like with Sarah, for example, is probably the person I would most think about the future with. That has to be scheduled, otherwise I just won't do it. I'm so. I'm so in the moment with my energy that I might. It almost. Almost might be bad actually for us being able to, like, think ahead. So as long as I've got those moments diarized, that means that those things will. Will get done. But I also kind of. I guess I have little moments where.

[C]

I let the world in, you know, like between.

[B]

So I'll be high energy here right now. Then I'll have a little moment where I'll kind of check in on the world around me.

[A]

Yeah, you do do that.

[B]

I'll have a little check in moment between. Let's say we're doing this podcast and then Sarah and I are gonna go do something else this afternoon. I'll have a little bit of check in where I Sort of let the world in and then I'm done, you know, like 10 minutes done away, back to being present in the moment. So I don't really know how helpful that is in terms of how practical, but that, that does not. Letting the noise of past future go on around. Just being as present as I can in the moment is very, very effective for my energy.

[A]

Yeah. And I think I'm quite different in terms of what gives me energy. So I often find because of all of the noise and the different things that we could do and that we want to do, I actually find I operate almost simultaneously across different time horizons and I find that motivating. I find that gives me energy. So I'm not super past orientated, but I do want to know things like the data. So I wouldn't want to make a decision without data, especially when I know we now have some data that perhaps we didn't have before. So if we were talking about the podcast, I would always be like, but let's remind ourselves, what does the data tell us? What have we learned so far? So I kind of like that, making sure that we're learning as we go. Then I'm like, what's the decision that we need to make now? So I don't mind being present, focused at all. But then I've also always got one eye on. And then in six months time, what might this mean in a year's time, what might this mean in 5 years time, what could this mean? So I think I get energy from actually almost like jumping across different time horizons, which I can imagine. You know, we talked about working together for some people and I can see that sometimes because my brain naturally goes to, I'm really happy to be present and then ask a question about two to three years time. And for some people you're like, that's too far. You're like, but I can't be present and do that at the same time.

[B]

Keeps you engaged in your work, doesn't it? Like joining the dots for you?

[A]

I think the agility of the different time horizons, I think it gives me confidence, which gives me energy. I'm like, confidence that we're not forgetting what's gone before, confidence in where we're going in the future and therefore we're doing the right thing for now. So to your point, I connect the dots, that gives me energy. And I think what drains my energy is if, particularly probably if I'm in present and we are ignoring the other two that, you know, like, it's important to know kind of what works for you and what works against your energy? I think if we're. If we were thinking about something and we were sort of completely ignoring what's gone before and completely ignoring where we might go, I think I would find that draining because I would find that too tactical, too in the moment. Sometimes you actually do need to do that, though. But, you know, like, it is, you know, if you've got, like, a really specific agenda where you just need to, like, work through a list of stuff. Like, I don't ever want to be in that meeting.

[B]

You know, you just like.

[A]

I guess that's what a lot of meetings are. But, you know, I was just trying to imagine, like, what. I wouldn't. If you just like, okay, we just need to do that. Tick that. You know, tick that off the list. Cross that off, cross that off. I'm like, oh, it's funny.

[C]

It's good.

[B]

Because obviously we have a bit of an energy clash with this kind of thing, and we're aware of it, which.

[C]

Is why it's okay.

[B]

But some of those meetings, I just.

[C]

Don'T invite you to them.

[B]

Yeah, I know, because I find them.

[C]

Quite energizing because I'm like, oh, wow. Well, like we said, six things, we got it done.

[B]

Amazing. Half an hour well spent. And you'd be like, this is the.

[C]

Worst half an hour of my week. And so some of them, I'm just. I'll do them with the team, for example. And I just think, well, it's not.

[B]

Sarah's not going to come out energized by that meeting.

[C]

So I can update her afterwards, but she doesn't need to be in it. And so, again, it's just. It's just the point of sharing this. We're not trying to be the same.

[B]

I do notice for you, though, that your approach for your energy is particularly helpful. Like in a hard moment where I would just go, well, let's just be present. Let's just keep going, keep going. And you will only stay engaged and energized if you've done, like, the. Well, the reason we're doing this is. And I'm trying this today, and I'm doing it because of this data. You know, I know that that helps you stay engaged and energized by your work when you're sort of rationalizing it with your perspectives.

[A]

The next one we thought was interesting is energy around relationships.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I do think energy often does feel like an exchange. Other people matter. So I think everybody's energy, whether you're more extroverted like Helen or more introverted like me. And I think the thing that I noticed about my energy is having kind of deep connections. One to one conversations always makes a difference to my energy in a week. And often those conversations, thinking back to perspectives, are more about the future. So I'm having a conversation with somebody and we're just exploring. We're talking about what might be, what could be, where things might go. Maybe I'm just learning from that other person. But they're those sort of. These are those curious career conversations. They're thoughtful and they're intentional. I do them a lot more in person again now actually because people are around a bit more. Not always though. And I find with those, if they disappear from my weeks completely or I start to deprioritize them, which is really tempting to do, my energy goes down. And what's interesting is that often it's after the conversation that I feel really energized. It's like the hour afterwards. If I can then be by myself, that conversation will have often sparked five or six different thoughts for me. I sort of need some time alone then to like process and almost use that energy usefully to then be like. It's given me an idea about this. I've got an idea about that now I'm going to write some things down and I'm really sort of sparky and I can sort of almost like feel. Yeah, feel the energy. But it's quite a big. It's quite hard to do, I would say. Like I, I see that because those things can be hard to make time for and they're often quite time consuming in that I don't have quick conversations. It's just, I find it really hard to have like a half an hour conversation. I'm. I'm an hour, a 90 minute type conversation person. So you're not doing that that frequently. So one of my reflections actually thinking about this was that doesn't happen. That's not a weekly thing. I don't have one of those conversations every week. I probably do have one every month. But I might just want to think about are there other ways that I could more frequently get energy from some of those relationships that don't always have to look like a 90 minute deep conversation. Yeah.

[B]

Do you have a list of people who, that you. I'm just trying to work out, you know, if you're like you're organizing your diary around like, you know that that gives you energy, you know that you don't want to deprioritize It. So do you. Do you have a list of, like, people you would like to have those conversations with?

[A]

So I don't have a list written down. I think I do have a default of four or five people who I know really well, who I would always enjoy having a conversation with. And I do make an effort to stay connected to those people, to try and spend time with them. I also then try and blend that probably 50, 50 with newness because otherwise I am definitely someone who would be at risk of. I'm still having the same conversations with the same people and they definitely give me energy, but then I'm not getting the, you know, sort of. You do need to meet new people who've got different experiences and different things to offer you. And so I think I am quite thoughtful about, like, who those four or five people are. And I think there are a couple who like, maintain their place because they are people that. Yeah, I just. I really appreciate their perspective and I love spending time with them. And then there are, like, new people who kind of make it into that list. And almost like, if I've not seen them for a while, I just think something goes off in my head where I'm like, oh, I've not seen that person for a month or a couple of months. I'll. I'll reconnect. I'll see if they want a coffee, I'll see if they want to grab something to eat at some point and we kind of get it sorted.

[B]

I can always tell when you have had those conversations because your voice notes.

[A]

For me are extra, extra special, extra, special, extra special voice notes.

[C]

Like, it's like a list of enthusiasm, which is not the go to. I wouldn't say it's the go to.

[A]

Not my go for. It's not your default.

[C]

It's very enthusiastic. And there's about six ideas or it's like a jumble because, you know, you're generally quite coherent. But he's apart from.

[A]

In those voices. Yeah.

[C]

And I really. I can actually, like, hear the energy. The most recent one that you did, like, that was after your conversation with Dr. Sunita Saar, who was.

[A]

Yeah, she was really good.

[C]

That's why that was definitely one where it was just like the energy. It was just, you know, it was, you know, I could really hear how.

[B]

Sparky that was for you in terms of, like, the energy and ideas. So this is another one where we're very different.

[C]

I mean, I hope this is helpful for people to listen because it's mainly just our differences.

[A]

Whatever it will prove that there's not just one way.

[B]

Yes. Yeah. So my energy is definitely like. When you talk about 90 minute, deep, thoughtful conversations, I'm like, I mean, it's not that I wouldn't enjoy them, but it wouldn't be. I would be like, oh, it's interesting. But it's not. That would not give me energy. I am much more like one to many. Put me in a room with lots of people, I think like almost like a human ping pong ball.

[C]

I know that sounds awful.

[A]

Like a pinball machine.

[B]

Like, yeah, oh, that, that. And be like, oh my gosh. And like, oh, that's so interesting that you're doing that and then sort of bringing someone into a conversation.

[C]

I'd like grab someone and I'd be.

[B]

Like, let's ping pong over here.

[A]

You know, like, it is almost surprising that you've stuck with me. When I listen to these things, I'm like, what is interesting though is like, I'm like, oh, we've sort of stuck. It's not surprising that I've stuck with you, but it's more surprising you've stuck with me.

[C]

Yeah, but there are just certain things we don't do together.

[A]

That's also true.

[C]

We just worked out and they just be like bad things to do together. Because in those moments it would just be like a bad energy cocktail. Yeah.

[A]

I don't want to be part of your pinball machine.

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah, you have like a ping pong pinball machine. I'm sort of mixing two ideas, but I think it's the same. Yeah, it's a pinball machine where I'm like.

[B]

But there's that.

[C]

Actually what's interesting is I've got that.

[B]

Quote on my phone this year about.

[C]

You know, meeting people, being like a.

[B]

Pinball and you never know where it's going to take you. But that actually does sit really well with me. And so I think what gives me energy is making sure in my week that I have like, maybe like pinball moments. Like when am I in a meeting or an environment where I'm going to be lots of newness. They're relatively quick conversations. So, you know, I had one last week when I was in Lisbon until I got poorly where there was lots.

[C]

Of people to sort of pinball with in there.

[B]

Lots of new people. I've got one this week where I'll be sort of reconnecting with a few people, but they're quite short conversations with. I don't have an agenda, maybe because maybe yours are more thoughtful. There are some Topics you're talking about. Mine are very agenda less. And even if I don't know, I don't really. Sometimes I just come away and I'm like, oh, it's just nice to spend some time with those people. And I think maybe I steal their energy, right? Maybe I'm like, you know, bouncing around and I'm just sort of moments of.

[C]

Conversations and I come away and I'm.

[A]

Like, oh, you've sort of topped up that factory. Yeah, it's like a top up from all the different. I just got images now of you like plugging into people being like, I'll take a bit of your energy or I'll take a bit of your energy.

[C]

Oh my gosh. I was watching a Black Mirror episode.

[A]

Oh, I've not watched them yet. I've not watched them. Okay.

[C]

But there's an episode where someone plugs into the throng.

[B]

I'm gonna leave it.

[A]

I'm gonna leave it.

[C]

Anybody who's watched, I think maybe I might be plugging into the throng.

[A]

Honestly, I have to care for Black Mirror because they do give me genuine nightmares sometimes. It doesn't end well. Okay, okay.

[C]

Clearly a passive.

[A]

I think you have to be in the right mood for Black Mirror.

[B]

Yeah, I agree. One episode at a time too many. Otherwise you're like, like, well, think of.

[C]

Me nicely when you watch that episode.

[A]

One reflection, I think on relationships is. I do wonder whether it's a useful thing for people listening to think about is there are the relationships that you have in your day job and then there are relationships that kind of go beyond your day job. And what we have both defaulted to actually is relationships beyond our day job that give us both energy and like what that looks like. So those pinball conversations you're having may be something to do with your day job, but mainly not. Same with me. I might be running an idea about amazing if past somebody, but they're not the sort of the real core day to day. And so I think that takes a bit of effort. So actually, you know, when people say, well, how do you do it? I'm like, well, actually we both put effort into that. Those things from both of us take effort and their real choice to go kind of beyond the day. And then I think in the kind of the day job thinking also about the energy that you bring to kind of the core of what you do. And I think we both also put a lot of effort into that. I will really think about if I'm doing a workshop and I know you would be the same for 500 people or a thousand people. We're doing a big learning program. Both of us are very conscious and going our job. Our accountability is to turn up with energy. So what does that mean? Does that mean a break beforehand? Does that mean thinking about what your morning looked like before that moment? And so I think we do think about it across both of those, but it just shows that sometimes beyond the day job matters.

[B]

Yeah. And again, I will look at my week. So for example, I'm going out tonight, but I've got some things tomorrow and I'll just be thinking about what will my energy look like in the flow of my week and what do I need to do differently so that I show up how I want to. Yeah, it's, it's just a very different way of looking at your week, I.

[A]

Think, which perhaps takes us on to the final one. So environment. So how does your environment affect your energy?

[B]

So for me, I like to, I think maybe it's like the present thing. I find sometimes mixing things up too much a bit hard. Like it's almost like I have to reset every time and that's not always really productive. So if you. And this again is often, sometimes while we have a clash, I'm better at being like, today I am here. Yes, I am here. I am doing this. I'm with these people and I'm all into this, I'm all into this. I sort of connect with that. Whereas then if it's like, and I've got to go there and then I've got to go there, I feel like I have to hit reset all the time. And that's not, that's not very, that's not very helpful for me. So I will look at my week and I would often think like, what place am I in? Like, I'll be like, okay, I'm London here. I'm here on this day or whatever and I'll think about that place and that will set me up for the day. So I, I like the mix over a week, but I quite like it to look the same in a day, if that makes sense. Whereas I think that doesn't work for you.

[A]

No, I think I like, I mean, variety is one of my values. And so actually I find if I've been in different spaces during a day, it massively increases my energy. So I think it's actually always why kind of corporate life. I did find it quite hard. The whole back to back meetings. You could be in a meeting room for three or four hours and I actually get a Bit sort of like, oh, I need to go outside. I just need to be somewhere different. And ideally we're doing something different as well. So I actually don't mind a bit of switching during a day. Switching of contexts. Not too much. Cause too much is a bit of a killer. Like, it's too hard. But if it was like, well, in the morning I'm doing this one thing, then, oh, actually I'm going out for a walk or I'm going to a different place or like, I've actually started to do this much more in the last six months. I live like, just outside London. And sometimes I come into London at the end of a day, which almost feels counterintuitive as everyone else is going home. I go into London and that might be because I'm going to an event. So recently I went to see Reid Hoffman speak. And you're sort of like, oh, it feels a bit like. I can imagine you going. That feels inefficient.

[B]

I was about to say that I.

[A]

Think this getting into London for the day to then go to that, but I go, oh, no, because then I've. I've had a better start to my day because I'm at home. I'd rather be at home first thing in the morning. Always. I've gone for a morning walk, I've done, I've delivered, I've given energy to whatever I'm doing for amazing F. Had whatever conversations. Then that part of my day closes. Then I've gone on a train and there's a bit of transition. And that's a kind of, I think, trains. I find a quite a neutral energy moment. I'm like listening to a podcast or I'm reading something and then I can give energy and attention to then the event that I'm going to in the evening. And then I sort of go home on a high. And so I think sometimes that's about experimenting as well with, like, what gives you energy around, like, place and environment. Because even when I worked at big companies, I was definitely, you know, when hot desking first became a thing. And even now, actually, I talked to one at a company that I will keep anonymous last week who was like, oh, we've got a new space and people are going to be hot desking. Everyone's really antsy about it. You know, people get really uptight about hot desking. Whereas I was always like, great, I'd love to not work in the same place every day. And I was really. I was an early adopter of like, oh, go and work In a canteen, go and work in the open spaces, go and work in the coffee shop. I'm like, yeah, brilliant. I want to do that. But I think for some people, they find that sort of an added stressor to their day, which I do understand as well. It's just very different to me.

[B]

I think this is about, like, energy and efficiency. Like, it is efficient for me to design a day that looks like sort of same play, same, like, to get that done, like, get it done thing. Whereas that isn't efficient for you, that your energy is not efficient. It drains without the difference. And it's again, I think I almost had, like, a Venn diagram of what's the best environment for you? What does good energy look like for you and what does efficiency like? It's sort of like those in the middle of that is how you design an environment that works well.

[A]

And I do think you describe your flow of energy during a week. The one thing we haven't talked about a lot, but we both know makes a massive difference, is also kind of how you do spend your time and what your energy looks like after work. Because we were both reflecting on over the last month, some of that hasn't worked for us. So in the spirit of balance, things have disappeared, or we've not managed to make things happen in our personal lives that we know both then give us energy, and then obviously that energy flows into the next day at work. And so I always do look at my diary and my calendar, and it's why we spend so much time. We sort of care a lot about what does the diary look like and is it going to work? Because actually, when some of those things go off balance, even if they're sort of personal things, you then see it show up elsewhere. And so even like last week, even not knowing we were doing this podcast, I actually went through my diary between now and my summer holiday. And I do schedule going for a walk in the middle of the day because I noticed that I dropped off and if I don't put those in, no one else is going to. And then actually by putting it in the time doesn't normally get taken. But, yeah, that sounds like a small thing, but that makes a really big difference to my energy during a day. I would never do a workshop for a company that we work with without having had a break beforehand. And because that break is the. That's sort of when I, like, reboot and then I'm, like, ready to go.

[B]

So I think to make this useful for you, I mean, hopefully it's Been interesting hearing what Sarah and I do, but I think to make it useful for you, I would say look at your diary with energy in mind, where your highs, your lows, maybe do that drawing of kind of what your ideal kind of week would look like. And I think talk about it with your team. Maybe that's just your manager. Like you're kind of, this is my energy flow in a week or ideally with your team, so you can hear what works well for them too. And I think that just a general kind of more self awareness and shared awareness of energy. The exchange, for example, the highs and the lows, is where you can start to then identify some actions, what you might do differently as a result of it.

[A]

And I think the thing that we, the conclusion that you and I have both got to is you can do this individually, but you can also be better together because of it. So when we are together, because we do know this about each other, it's like I take a break by myself.

[C]

That's so true.

[A]

Helen takes no breaks. Today, for example, I haven't taken a break where I might normally take a break, but because I knew there was a break coming, I was like, oh, okay, that's okay. And I've sort of compromised a bit for Helen because I go, well, that will make Helen happy. And I'm okay too. And so I think just knowing that just means that you can compromise enough also within your context, within the teams that you're in a bit like, you know, if you're doing like a team away day. I do actually think talking about my high energy moments over the last month have been, what are your top three high energy moments at work over the last month? And what's been one moment that's drained your energy? And that's not about being critical about the job or the organization, because everybody would have one moment in the last month that's drained your energy. I actually don't know what that would be for all of our team, but that is actually a conversation I would really like to have because we had the conversation two or three weeks ago where we were like, Mondays are draining our energy. And it was a specific day for loads of reasons. But then because we had the conversation, we've done something about it, or we're at least trying to do something about it. And so I think it's just making it really visible and I think really connecting the dots between energy equals impact, you know, like what I mean, partly you're doing this because you feel better. Like, you just feel better in your week. But the other, the big payoff I guess is then the quality of what you are doing. It will make a really big difference, so it's sort of worth it for everyone.

[B]

So we would love your reflections on this. Any thoughts on how Sarah and I manage our energy, any conversations that you have as a team and insights you get from it, please let us know because we're really interested in hearing your thoughts. So it's just helenand [e-mail] so we.

[A]

Hope you found that useful. That's everything for this week and we'll see you again soon. Bye for now.