Are You Wasting Your Talent? (Why Moral Ambition Matters)

Summary

Squiggly Careers Podcast – Episode Summary

Episode Title: Are You Wasting Your Talent? (Why Moral Ambition Matters)
Hosts: Sarah Ellis (A), Helen Tupper (B)
Date: October 14, 2025
Theme: How "moral ambition" shapes careers, what it means, the distinction between action and belief, and practical ways to make your work and life more impactful.

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Brief Overview

Sarah and Helen explore the concept of "moral ambition", inspired by Rutger Bregman's new book. The episode prompts listeners to reflect on their work’s meaning, challenges them to take practical steps to expand their impact, and discusses why simply being “good” isn’t enough—action matters. They unpack provocative ideas like the "bullshit job" debate, the belief-behavior gap, and how everyone, not just world-changing figures, can activate purpose in their careers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is Moral Ambition?

• Definition: “It’s the longing to make a difference and to leave a legacy. You don’t do good things because you’re a good person. You become a good person by doing good things.” (Sarah quoting Bregman, [00:30]/[03:02])
• Moral ambition is not about status or intentions alone, but about proactive, tangible action—big or small.
• The concept may feel daunting because examples often feature people who have changed the world; most listeners are far from that, but can start small.

2. The 'Belief-Behavior Gap'

• Many believe in contributing to a better world but fail to consistently act on those beliefs. Example: “I still eat meat... that's a good example of the belief-behavior gap.” (Sarah, [04:30])
• True moral ambition is demonstrated through closing this gap with action, however incremental.

3. "Bullshit Jobs" and Talent Waste

• Bregman critiques unfulfilling work: “Loads of talent being wasted rather than well spent... are you doing work that matters, that makes a difference, that feels meaningful?” (Sarah, [08:37])
• The matrix: distinguishes between idealistic/ambitious, not-so-ambitious, etc., provoking the listener to rethink how their own work fits.

4. Practical Actions to Build Moral Ambition

Sarah introduces three core actions with real-life examples and applications:

Action 1: Volunteer and Be Useful

• “We can all volunteer more or start volunteering in some way. What counts is, are you prepared to do something?” (Sarah, [10:40])
• Volunteering is framed as “givers gain”; it's beneficial both personally and collectively.
• Advice: Start small, consider the hours or percentage of time you can devote; even one hour a week can be impactful ([15:15]).
• Practical examples: Mentoring, school talks, roles as trustees, and local community involvement like food banks.

Action 2: Expand Your Impact by One Person or Group

• “He describes this as your moral circle... if you were just going to extend that by one person or one group... where would you go first?” (Sarah, [18:14])
• Think beyond deepening existing relationships; seek to expand your positive impact outward.
• Example: Scaling from one-to-one mentoring to group engagements; supporting new segments beyond your usual audience.

Action 3: Follow Rather Than Start from Zero—Find Role Models

• “Hardly any... completely start from scratch. Majority of us are really good followers, but... you have to have someone or something to follow.” (Sarah, [22:49])
• Most people help advance causes started by others; identify role models or organizations you can learn from or support.
• Hosts share inspiring examples: “Nice and Serious” (ethical creative agency), “Hoxby” (workplace innovation), “Cook” (inclusive hiring), and James Timpson (ex-offender employment).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Defining Moral Ambition:

  “You don’t do good things because you’re a good person. You become a good person by doing good things.”
  — Sarah reading Bregman, [03:02]

• Time as a Moral Choice:

  “A full time career consists of 80,000 hours... how you spend that time is one of the most important moral decisions of your life.”
  — Sarah, [03:49]

• Challenging Yet Optimistic:

  “His big argument would be there is loads of talent being wasted rather than well spent.”
  — Sarah, [08:37]

• On Volunteering:

  “We can all volunteer more or start volunteering in some way. And actually what’s good about volunteering is it’s good for you… It’s really good for your kind of mental health and obviously really good for the people too.”
  — Sarah, [10:40]

• Expanding Moral Circles:

  “Who do you already have a positive impact on and how? If you were just going to extend that by one person or one group of people, where would you go first?”
  — Sarah, [18:14]

• Challenge & Reflection:

  “Every so often you do need a book that challenges you, provokes you, prompts you to really ask yourself some difficult questions. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Not, you know, we don’t want everything to be easy, right?”
  — Sarah, [28:41]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• 00:30 / 03:02 — Defining “moral ambition”; key quote
• 05:48–08:37 — Matrix of job types, talent waste, “bullshit jobs”
• 10:37–15:35 — Volunteering as meaningful action; practical advice
• 17:56–22:19 — Expanding impact, "moral circles", concrete examples
• 22:27–28:51 — Role models, most people are “followers” not “zeros”, business inspirations

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Tone and Atmosphere

The episode blends reflective candour, optimism, and gentle challenge, with plenty of practical suggestions without judgment. Both Sarah and Helen are open about their own journeys, admitting uncertainties, and emphasizing that meaningful change comes from consistent small steps, not instant transformation.

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Summary Takeaways

Moral ambition isn’t only for world-changers—it’s about everyday choices, like volunteering or amplifying the impact you already make. Most positive change comes from contributing to something bigger and following the leads of others, not starting from scratch.

Listeners are encouraged to:

• Reflect on their own “belief-behavior gap”
• Seek practical, sustainable ways to act for good, even if small
• Find and learn from purpose-driven role models or organizations

Final Provocation:
“Ask yourself difficult questions—not to feel daunted, but to find new, realistic ways to use your talent well and leave a positive legacy.”

Transcript

[A]

I do think as you go through this, for most people, it is quite confronting. I think it will encourage you to ask some provoking questions. It is a really good read, actually. It's a really inspiring read. But at the same time, sometimes those people who have changed the world can make you also feel like I'm so far away from that. Yes. So his definition of moral ambition. This is what I'm like. Prepare yourself. It's the longing to make a difference and to leave a legacy. You don't do good things because you're a good person. You become a good person by doing good things.

[B]

Okay, we've got heavy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would say that the majority of people are probably not necessarily consciously thinking about some of these world's biggest problems every day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And probably not going to work every day going, I'm so ambitious. The bullshit job thing, I have a little bit of friction with that term, but I think I understand what he's trying to do, which is saying, hi, I'm Helen.

[A]

And I'm Sarah.

[B]

And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast, where every week we get curious and use our conversation to turn that curiosity into action to support you in your Squiggly career. And we're borrowing brilliance from lots of different things.

[A]

It could be people.

[B]

So we've done one with Richard Feynman, a physicist. It could be books, it could be objects. And we're taking in turn, sort of lead the conversation. So Sarah is leading us through her curiosity day. What are we going to be talking about, Sarah?

[A]

So today we are talking about moral ambition. Deep, deep breath, everybody. I would say, is it hard hitting? Yes. Yes, it is. Okay, great.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

By Rutger Gregman. And so, yes, it is. That is my, my starting point for this is it is quite confronting. I do think as you go through this, for most people, it is quite confronting. Maybe some people, though, will just be like, feel really smug. So if you are doing something incredible and saving the world in every which way, you'll feel really good about yourself. For the rest of us, I think it will encourage you to ask some provoking questions. And what I have tried to do today is take the concept and go, right, what could everybody do? And it is, you know, it is a really good read, actually. It's a really inspiring read. But at the same time, I don't know, you know, sort of those, sometimes those people who have changed the world can make you also feel like, oh, I'm so far away from that. So is it.

[B]

But.

[A]

But it is reading the book is very Time well Spent is a, It's a really good book.

[B]

What made you, what made you buy it? Pick it up.

[A]

I was like, oh, I wonder what moral ambition is. I recognize Rutger Bregman's name from Humankind, which I think I did read some of, but I, I didn't ever connect with it. I've not, I've not really read it. Like, I couldn't tell you all the key themes. And so I was like, oh, I'm interested, I'm interested in kind of what that is. And if you're wondering, what is it? So his definition of moral ambition. So this is where like this is, I'm like, prepare yourself the will to make the world a wildly better place. It's the longing to make a difference and to leave a legacy. And so it, it is really ambitious in terms of like what you're asking of yourself. Definitely. And he does have this really good quote, which I think this is more maybe reassuring. You don't do good things because you're a good person. You become a good person by doing good things. So we can all do that. Right?

[B]

You all.

[A]

It's not like some of us are listening to this now and go, I'm a bad person. Yeah, it's kind of, it is very much about your action. And the book does start with this statement where he says, a full time career consists of 80,000 hours, 10,000 work days or 2,000 work weeks. How you spend that time is one of the most important moral decisions of your life.

[B]

Okay, we've got heavy.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's not going to get loads lighter. It might do as I, as I try to kind of come up with some actions for us all. What is interesting is the real emphasis on doing so. You could read books like this and be like, oh, it's very thinky and reflective and you need to think really deeply. All of those things would be true. But he does put a real emphasis on the people who are very good at being kind of morally ambitious. They do take action. It's like, what counts is are you prepared to do something. And he talks about this belief behavior gap. So, you know, like you believe something is the right thing to do, but do you behave in a way that reflects that? And he said, loads of us have lots of belief behavior gaps. Like, of course you do. Like, you could say, so if I'm like, you are going to have to say some things here about yourself where you're like, oh, okay. So, you know, like, for example, I still Eat meat and on a, like that. That's a good example of the belief behavior gap of going, well actually if you wanted to do more that was good for the world, you would, you would stop eating meat. So you can feel smug about that. You don't eat meat. So there you go.

[B]

Can I just ask when we're talking about moral ambition, because I think it will frame how I think about what you're going to share. Are we talking about like those sort, you know, like making the world a better place because we're not eating meat or we're not, you know, we're, we're aware of our, I don't know, carbon footprint or the resources we're consuming. Are we talking about that or does it, if I, if that doesn't connect with people, does it also relate to like an average day at work and how you build relationships? What's the.

[A]

So I think he, he does direct people to like working on the world's biggest problems. So there is definitely like that zoomed out point of view. And he has got a website called moralambition.org which is where he actually describes some of those like collective challenges, sometimes by a set of countries, sometimes they're like a world problem. To give some examples of things that like we could, we could, we could all work on. Yeah. So things like tax making, making sure kind of tax is fair though. So those are big problems, kind of global problems. He does, as you get into it, at least hint of, hint to kind of what individuals can do and that it does kind of matter for everyone, kind of within your own context. He is pretty scathing of, he has this like matrix of not so idealistic. Idealistic, not so ambitious, ambitious. And he basically says people are in four categories. And so if you're not so idealistic and you're not so ambitious, um, I mean he describes this as like you're doing a bullshit job basically. Um, then you get into idealistic and not so ambitious. You're like a passionate part time, part time. Or maybe you're like an online activist. If you're ambitious but not idealistic, you're a corporate lawyer, you're a consultant, you're in finance or tech. Both of us have worked in both of those industries. This is what I mean. You're like, okay, which you know, is interesting. And then he said if you're idealistic and ambitious, you should have moral ambition. And there is a good link to the key concepts in the book, a good Guardian article. So if you're like, I don't know if I want to read the book yet or I just want to get, like, started. I would really encourage you to read the Guardian article, which is free and there's kind of no paywalls. And you do get a real feel for kind of a bit of a starting point.

[B]

Yeah. My initial. My initial thoughts are like, I'm very. I'm very open and I'm very intrigued and I'm looking. I'm looking, looking forward to learning. But I would say that the majority of people are kind of in probably what he is phrasing as a sort of job thing, you know, like, they're probably not necessarily consciously thinking about some of these world's biggest problems every day.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And probably not going to work every day, going, I'm so ambitious. They're sort of, you know, they're going to work. So I feel a little bit like, oh, I don't know, I don't like the bullshit job thing. I feel I have a little bit of friction with that term. But I think I understand what he's trying to do, which is saying the world is spending a lot of time at work and if we put that to work on something bigger, it would be better. So I'm going to hold that in my mind.

[A]

His big argument would be there is loads of talent being wasted rather than well spent. You know, like, are you doing work that matters, that makes a difference, that feels meaningful? I think your observation is a really good one. You know, like, the majority, where within that matrix is like, the majority of people who are probably like, a bit idealistic and a bit ambitious. Because I think that's where most people would be maybe, but maybe not you and I, like, I think in some ways I would, by his categorization, you and I would have both at times gone in the ambitious, not idealistic one.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, you can't. Like, I worked for a big bank. You worked for a big global tech company. Which is why, like, as you are reading, it does make you think, all right, crikey. I. But I don't feel he isn't trying to beat you up. I would actually say those. Some of the things that I have picked out, I like deliberately provocative because I'm like, it's interesting. Right. It is an optimistic read. And he is, he is encouraging and he does give you loads of good examples of people who have made a difference. So I think you can get to this point and be like, well, that sounds really daunting. It's. That's not doable. But in the Book. He does say the majority of people who end up making actually a really significant difference start really small. They rarely start from scratch. And usually you're learning from other people. So it's not like you have to create a massive movement or save the world by yourself or completely re engineer everything. It's often just like one, you know, like one small action kind of leads to another. Leads to another. I think the thing that he would always want people to be doing is just doing something, you know, like not being passive, being active rather than passive.

[B]

Okay, so talk to us about what, what we can do, some guidance.

[A]

I'm ready. You're ready. Hopefully. If nothing else, I think it isn't it. It's something to be curious about, you know, like you said, like feel really intrigued by. So what could you and I wrote in capitals do? I was like, right, crike I going to do. One of the phrases he does use, which may or may not reassure people is like, you've got to demand more of yourself. And I was like, okay. I actually do think, though, since reading the book, I have demanded more of myself. So, I mean, it sort of worked. So I'm going to give some examples. So number one, you can volunteer. We can all volunteer more or start volunteering in some way. And actually what's good about volunteering is it's good for you. Like, we know there's loads of. There's loads of research that we've talked about before around your own happiness, how healthy you are. It's really good for your kind of mental health and obviously really good for the people too. It's kind of that point, like givers gain more. You do come back to that, actually, this idea of like having a giving mindset.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that volunteering can be anything. And I think it can. It can also serve quite a few different purposes. It could be a way of you exploring something that if you do want to do something different, volunteering is a great way to start understanding that world. So if you. I do think some people might read this book and go, right, I want to do something dramatically different. If that's you, I think volunteering helps you to get there. Some people like me will read it and think, okay, I don't want to do something dramatically different, but I do take the point that I could probably demand more of myself. So what might that look like? And it means you get to spend time with different people. And a practical way of making progress on the question is, I think is like, how can I contribute the most? You know, like where can I volunteer my time, my skills in a way that's going to be really useful? Because I think this is all about being useful rather than necessarily just like following your passions, you know, he's quite anti the following your passions statement.

[B]

So I guess just thinking about that in terms of volunteering times in ways that we could be useful things like speakers for schools to inspire young people to think differently about how they enter the workforce, or helping other businesses in our ecosystem, as in other businesses that want to make careers better for everybody, just giving them some of their time to help them sort of start and scale their ideas and thinking. Or you and I kind of both work in sort of trustee roles. So giving our time to other organizations that are kind of working on something that we're passionate about can contribute to, but it's not, it's of no commercial benefit to us. It's our, you know, we're trading time to help them do what they're trying to do, that sort of thing.

[A]

Yeah, totally. And I, I was like, right, okay, how would I make this really concrete? Because I was like, right, we're going from really quite a big zoomed out idea here to something quite zoomed in. So I gave myself a score. I was like, right, if, if Action One is to volunteer, start, build, expand your volunteering, what would I give myself out of 10 at the moment in terms of my volunteering? About how much of a meaningful contribution do I make through my volunteering? So I gave myself a 5 out of 10. So I'm not starting from zero, which I think as you go through this, it is quite good to recognise what you already do before you beat yourself up too much. And to your point, I was like, well, I do volunteer my time for some mentoring every year through a program. I do volunteer my time for three organizations who I believe are making careers and work better for everyone. Some of those are completely voluntary organizations as well. So I feel like you've kind of double your impact perhaps that way for some of them are commercial, which I don't think feels quite the same. But then you can start to challenge yourself to go, right, if I'm demanding more of myself, what else could you and I do? What else could amazing if do, given our mission and our ambition is to make careers better for everyone. So I don't think it's a surprise. So I read this book for the first time in the summer and we are now actively exploring quite a few partnerships where we could support people with their careers that we don't support today. And I don't know if I would have had those conversations or been as proactive if I hadn't read the book. And I think that's sort of the point. So that's not dramatically different to what you and I do today, but I think it's pushed me and nudged. Yeah. To kind of go further, I think.

[B]

You know, just giving where you started from about like the 80,000 hours and, you know, those metrics. I think I would. Rather than maybe a score. I do like your score, but I think I might even go one bit further with that and almost do like a percentage of my time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think I would go to hours, hours a month or hours a year and think, well, how do I redesign my week? Or if, you know, if I was in a corporate, could I speak to my manager? Because lots of companies that I've worked in have had sort of policies where they can support volunteering hours. And I'd maybe try and like, lock that in and formalize it. So it's becoming part of my.

[A]

Part of my work. Yeah. And it's sort of like the thing, you know, some companies do. We're always going to give 10% of our profits away. You could be like, well, I'm always going to give. Because the thing that's not talked about loads in the book is like, it's also money. He does, he does talk about privilege. So, as in, if you're privileged, it's often easier to make some of these choices. Certainly historically, he gives some examples of, like, people who've not everyone, but some people who've done some amazing things, like hundreds and hundreds of years ago, they were quite privileged. So they sort of could, you know, they could make those. They had. They could. They had the means to make those arguments. But what there's not a lot of discussion of is like, okay, but most people can't give up loads of time or money to do lots of volunteering because, you know, like, everybody still has mortgages to pay and rent to pay and things. So I think your point is a really good practical one, because you could say, well, if I. If I don't do any of this at the moment, what would one hour a week look like? Yeah. And I think connecting that with something that you care about, I think it could be to do with work, but I don't think it has to be. I was reading actually do something with kids, Right? Yeah. Like, I was thinking schools. Schools, kids volunteering for, like, reading time. I was reading in my local magazine that the local food bank near where I live are have more requests for food than ever before, but a 25% down year on year on donations. Even though they get loads, they still. They're still not kind of getting enough to meet the demand. And so you might read and that connected to me. I've worked on food waste before when I worked in a supermarket and I was like, oh, okay. I don't think I. I'm quite new to this area. Oh, I didn't realize that was there. I was like, I wonder if there's something I could do there. Just. And that's completely separate to work.

[B]

My mum recently dressed up as a daffodil in order to collect money for charity to marry him. Yeah. In the supermarket. And I think she was there. I think you're not allowed to, like, shake, but I think she. She was very happy.

[A]

You've not allowed to shake.

[B]

You're not allowed to shake, are you? So I think she just smiled. Dressed up as a daffodil.

[A]

Smiled with a little hope. Please, please.

[B]

Yeah, please put it in the bucket.

[A]

So that's doing. Doing Action one. Yeah. Do we feel a bit more concrete, bit more doable than we did 10 minutes ago? Yes.

[B]

I think volunteering is a way that you can do good and making that concrete by either giving yourself a score or setting some hours aside, that feels. I feel absolutely fine with that. I feel good about that.

[A]

So action number two is expanding your impact by one person or group. So I like this one because I feel like we can all do this now. He describes this as your moral circle. And there's sort of a diagram of like a. There's a diagram when you frame it.

[B]

I'm like, that sounds great. And then the terms. I'm like, oh, that sounds heavy.

[A]

Okay, so your moral circle. Imagine like concentric circles and it starts in the middle and it's you. And then it goes out to, like, your loved ones, your friends, people you work with, neighbors, people in the community, the country, people, animals, you know, you can kind of keep going. And so I was like, oh, okay, this one I can get to quite quickly because you could just literally think about your role today. Who do you already have a positive impact on and how? Like, what does that look like? And on. If you were just going to extend that by one person or one group of people, like, where would you go first? Like, who else would benefit from kind of what you've got to give? So I could think of one for you straight away because this happened last week. So I was like, oh, okay. So this was Helen doing this. So you already do. In Squiggly Careers in Action. In our weekly newsletter, you. You will sometimes do a Helen how to for our community. And I'm like, great people love those and it helps them with how to do something. And then last week you were talking to our team about a GPT, creating a GPT, and you offered to do a Helen's how to for our team. So actually you do something externally that actually you don't do for our team at the moment. And everyone's face just lit up. They were like, yes, please, please do me a Helen how to. And so that would be a really good example of you extending your impact by like, basically looking inwards rather than outwards. Just with, with that example.

[B]

So question on that point, you know, because I've kind of. The way you described it, I sort of saw sort of moral circles, like concentric circle. Yeah, you have, you, you have family, friends kind of going out. Is the aim to have more people in an existing circle. So can I help more friends? Can I help more family? Or is the aim to kind of go further out? So helping friends of friends or, you know, like outside of my company people.

[A]

Yeah, it's a good question. I think what he's trying to get you to is like, who else? So rather than help the people you currently help more deeply, which you could obviously also do, it's kind of like, who else are you not supporting that you could. And so then you go out and you're kind of hitting more people in more places. So it'll be like us saying, whose career are we not making better and how could we help those people? Because they're not the people that we help today. And so, for example, I, I could also think of one quite quickly, which I was like, that's always quite good if you can think of one. I mentor people through a program one to one. But then this week I'm going to an event that I've been to before, and I'm actually kind of hosting a table of 10 people so that I can help more people at once and also connect those people together. So I've expanded my impact from 1 to 1 to 1 to 10. So, you know, that's not, that's not dramatic, that's not unrealistic. And again, this is where you see these things get to you. That idea came after I read the book, I think, because you then start to think I was so, I mean, a. Trying not to beat myself up too much, but I was trying to Challenge myself, you know, to kind of go, well, what would be, what would that look like for me? Expanding my moral circle also in a way that feels realistic, you know, with like my time and my effort and those kind of things. But back to positive impact. I think you do have to. This is not about just knowing more people. So it's not like I'll just extend my number of connections. It's in a way where you are giving. It's like, you know, it is back to that. Like people helping people. So, you know, we would always talk about that's a great way to build your network. And I do wonder. He would never say this and I suspect this is like his worst case scenario, but if you go through each of these, I do feel like I could make a pretty good business case for each of these. Being useful for your squiggly career, you know, like volunteering new people to borrow brilliance from. Stretch your strengths in different situations, like extending your impact is a really good way to like, use your strengths in a new way to discover new people. You know, it's very. People helping people. That's really not the point. Point of the book.

[B]

And that's not why he wrote the book.

[A]

No, no. But I can, I can get there. Trying to save the world.

[B]

We're trying to save careers.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Third action.

[A]

So third action I actually didn't have a good answer to, but I liked the action. So one of the points he makes is there are hardly any, what he calls like zeros, you know, like people who completely start from scratch and think, I'm, I'm going to create this thing. Like most, like, it's like 99.9% of people are not that people are already.

[B]

Doing something good or.

[A]

No, because it is very hard to be the first one. So, you know, like the first person to speak out against slavery.

[B]

Okay, okay, so it's a different thing. Not because we're already doing something good. Someone. The good thing we might try to do.

[A]

Yeah. And because that's quite hard because when he talks about like being a zero, you are typically going against some. Something that is very accepted and everyone does. And this is just how we do things. It'd be like somebody going now, well, we're all just going to stop using cars. That's just, oh, we will stop flying. That just feels, you know, like. So it's. So it takes a lot of bravery, a lot of courage. You've got to be incredibly visionary and typically put up with a lot of people saying a lot of people disagreeing with you. But I mean, it's almost kind of good news because actually, if you read some of those examples and some of them are in the book, they are inspiring, but they're really far away. Right? Because you're like, well, yeah, that feels really tricky. So most of them, most of us, we're not a zero and we don't. We don't have to worry about it. But what is helpful to have is spot a specific role model. So we act once others have led the way. Majority of us are really good followers, but. But you have to have someone or something to follow. And then actually people really innovate. People are often inspired by something or someone else. And then like, they come up with, like, brilliant things. And so I think one of the things to do is to start the search if you don't already have one, for, like, what's the answer to that for you? Because actually, when I thought about it, I can think about role models in the work that we do. So I can name people whose work I admire or who. People like. People where I'm like, I really like how they do what they do. But if I am connecting this back to being morally ambitious, like how they have maybe approached building their business or kind of. They're kind of more connected to something, more kind of purposeful in that way. I was like, oh, that's a bit harder. So there's somebody I know I was thinking, oh, I really like. So my friend Tom runs a company called Nice and Serious. And what I love about Nice and Serious, they do. They do morally ambitious work. Actually, they'd be good. They have a good example. So they're like a creative agency who do morally ambitious work, and they have a filter for who they decide to work with. They have some brilliant policies. They've got like a really good period policy that they talk about. He writes a really good newsletter called Agency in Progress. And every time I read that, I'm like, oh, I feel like they're always stretching and challenging themselves, you know, to do they do good work for good brands or good businesses, often charities or social enterprises, those kind of things. And I was like, oh, actually that's. That's a good example of the sort of business I want to build. So I was starting to get there, but it took me. It took me a little while. And that's obviously a little bit of an individual, but a bit of a business too, because then what you can start to ask yourself is, okay, well, how could I. How could I learn more from, like, I see Tom Every so often, but probably like only every couple of years. And I follow Nice and Serious. But I could dive into their world a bit more. Yeah. Think about how they work. I could ask them more questions.

[B]

You could volunteer, I could close the loop.

[A]

You know, I could go and do a squiggly session for Nice and Serious and in return just ask them loads of questions to be like, oh, okay, so how do you make some of these, this decisions? What about you? Could you, can you. It took me. Yeah, well, I was just listening.

[B]

Oh, well, I was listening and thinking, you know, how you framed it. And I was thinking about Alex Hurst and Lizzie Penny.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How they've involved Hoxby. So I think now it's just Hoxby. When I, when I first sort of became aware of them, it was Hoxby Collective and their initial. I'm. I'm. You may not kind of have the words quite right, but my perception initially of their purpose was about sort of creating a new way for people to work. So bringing, you know, people with lots of different skills together who wanted to work in a. With lots of freedom in a sort of freelance way, bringing people together on projects. But actually over time they've really taken what they have learned from managing this global community of people that want to work differently. And then they wrote this book called Work Style and now they're sort of influencing policy to create better work for people. And I, I think that they are really good role models because how they are evolving their business and how they are pivoting towards purpose, I find that quite inspiring that the business you are today isn't the one you always need to be. And you can, you know, you can build on these principles over time to get closer to this kind of purpose based outcome that you want. I would. That was who I thought of when.

[A]

You were talking, but that, that took me a moment. So again, you might have someone listening. You might be like, oh, I already know. I know the person, I know the company, I know the community.

[B]

I was thinking about Cook as well. You know, who I've worked with for ages. That's another.

[A]

That's a good example. Just shows though, doesn't it? You have to like start talking about it and thinking they are, they are. Cook are a very good example. Again, I love how transparent they are. I love how morally ambitious they are with like, who they recruit. They recruit a lot of ex offenders and they've really stayed committed to that.

[B]

And James Timpson, I mean, now you're going on.

[A]

I could probably now easily I think because initially when I think role model, that sort of probably wasn't my filter. And so actually it's just taken me a little while to. You're asking the question from a different angle, which I think is a good thing. So I really hope everyone listening is okay and hasn't found it too overwhelming. It's funny, I recommended this book to Cath Bishop, who's been on the podcast before. Kath wrote a book called the Long Win and she's, she's brilliant. And I knew she, she was like, I've already bought it. You know, like, I knew, I knew she was going to like it. And we both said afterwards, we were like, really does make you pause for thought. And I think every so often you do need a book that challenges you, provokes you, prompts you to really ask yourself some difficult questions. And I don't think that's a bad thing. Not, you know, we don't want everything to be easy, right?

[B]

No. And I think not every book, I mean, a single book transforming you is probably a bit of a, I mean, bit of a stretcher, but, but a book that makes you think differently and question yourself. I think that is a, that is a good, that is a good outcome. I always say to myself, like, it's a good book. If I've made notes in the margin. And I think if I would read. I have, probably would.

[A]

I did make. I have underlines. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. If you've got any feedback on this new format for us, because it is slightly different, let us know. And don't forget that we also have got our new Thursday episodes which are squiggly shortcuts. So very specific, very action orientated to help you in your squiggly career. Our email is helenandsarahquigglycareers.com Let us know your thoughts on this episode. Let us know your feedback on the format and any other ideas or topics that you'd love us to cover.

[A]

Thank you so much for listening, everyone. We'll be back with you again next week. Bye for now. Bye, everyone.

[B]

Sam.