A (4:42)

Let's now dive in to these shell shedding moments. Lots of our listeners will know because we have been talking about learning like a lobster for a little while now. And actually this episode will come out the day after our book launches in the uk. It's out a couple of weeks later in the US So it would just be out. So let's hope like Lots of listeners and viewers have actually got the book in their hands as we, as we talk. And they will start to be learning about this idea of lobsters shell that shed their shells and that is how they keep growing. And that isn't an easy process. It's energy zapping. The lobsters are vulnerable, but they grow back these new shells and they are bigger, better, stronger because of it. And so we think everybody has shell shedding moments in their careers. Probably we have mini shell shedding moments most days or most weeks. And the reason we particularly wanted to talk to CEOs is I sometimes think it's easy to put people who are in positions with so much influence and impact on a pedestal and think Logan must not have shell shedding moments because she's the CEO of TED and ted's incredible. So I'd love to hear an example or a couple of examples of what has those shell shedding moments looked like for you?

C (5:55)

The first, so in between, I was at ted left, worked in tech, and then I went to the Obama foundation. And as you can imagine, it was a highlight of my career to work so closely with President Obama as he built the foundation as he was leaving office. And I was there building our kind of programs and convenings. But so one of the hardest things I've ever had to do is actually choosing to leave the foundation. In many ways, it was a dre. I was applying an area of expertise that I had honed. You know, I was building a fellowship program which I had done in other spaces. I was building our kind of convening capability and it was a really important topic that we were working on. So. And of course I got to work really closely with the President himself. So after about a year and a half, I started to question kind of about it felt like it was my time to leave. And it was a combination of things that were contributing to that, one of which was the energy of the foundation needed to be focused on building the Presidential center in Chicago. But I really felt like I was leaving the work half finished and I was in the middle of selecting the second class of fellows and then kind of my sense of duty to the fellows themselves who are just these badass human beings out in the world and I wanted to catapult them further in their careers and grow the impact they were having. My commitment to the team working on this stuff. And then of course my internal monologue that by leaving only having been there for a year and a half, I was failing and. And what would the outside world think of that all of that was really like loud in my, in my head as I was wrestling with the decision. And I think ultimately it was my wonderful husband Justin who said to me, logan, the only person or the person, I don't remember how he said it. You will, he will have said it more eloquently than I will say to you, but something along the lines of, you are always going to be the person who's looking out most for your career and your well being. And if this feels like you think it might be right, then then it probably is and it's worth taking that risk, even if there are. You have concerns about why you shouldn't be taking that leap. And so I eventually did it and I did it my way. I gave them, you know, six months lead time so I could really feel like I was closing out the things that I wanted to close out. And truthfully, I think most of us do stay in jobs too long because it's really hard to leave, especially high performers and type A personalities and all. I know you talk about that stuff a lot on the podcast and as I was reflecting on it, it feels like it's a mix of ego and empathy kind of that make you stay too long and it's not in service of the organization you're at to stay too long, let alone yourself. And so figuring out how to shed that ego and empathy to make the right decision in that moment for myself but for others, that was a huge learning for me that I, you know, I think I still wrestle with shedding those in certain moments, but feel very rewarded by that decision that I made, knowing that it ultimately was right. That gives me more kind of confidence to make decisions like that in the future.

A (9:18)

I do wonder whether, just listening to you there, I think when you're having those big moments though, because that's a big, it's a big decision to make and you can probably justify it either way. You know, you could come up with the pros and cons and you could get to A or you could get to B, but it sounded like probably what you needed in that moment. I do wonder whether we always need perspective from somebody outside of our situation. The other reflection you had there, which actually I think is a sort of small and nuanced insight that I don't think I've heard as often, so I just wanted to pause on that, was you said something like, and I still think I'm. I'm shedding parts of that shell. And I think that's quite reassuring for people to hear that I guess sometimes when you imagine this, because we're talking about lobsters, they shed their shell and you're like, oh, that's done. Because then, you know, they kind of grow off, off, off. I mean, to be fair, they eat them so they, they literally do disappear because they've got calcium. So it helps them to grow their new shell. So. But I think that's when maybe, you know, sometimes we don't take the parallels with the lobster too far because actually I think for us it is, it's not a sort of one and done process. And how about in your, in your role now as a kind of CEO? Really interested to hear about maybe something that's just felt, it's either like it's been surprisingly hard or just, just felt tough for you or it's, or it's perhaps felt like you've had to, you know, we've had to do a bit of unlearning and relearning. I have to think shell shedding is, you know, you did, you were in the organization before and there must have been a, there must be a bit for you of kind go of that kind of old job, your old roles and responsibilities and kind of going. I now need to figure out what does it mean now that I'm the CEO. It's not the same. It kind of can't be the same. But that must also feel quite hard at times.

C (11:04)

I was talking about this before we started the recording, but your podcast on spaciousness, not to plug another of your podcasts, had me thinking about this a lot because the difference between spaciousness and doing, I think was some of the dichotomy that you were talking about, Sarah. And in many ways, obviously I was leading a big team and work previously, but I'm really confident and excel in the doing and in many ways I can't personally be doing as much doing in the CEO. And so thinking about how to support, trust others and invest in kind of fertile ground for us to, to do the best work going forward has been part of that shift, I think, and a continuous shift. I mean, you know, it's not, I haven't shifted. I think always be on that journey shifting. I was also thinking about kind of like what are some small examples of shell shedding moments that I've experienced in the past couple of weeks and months. And one one comes to mind, I was, I was preparing to share. I mentioned we're doing kind of some strategy work and some budget work as we think about kind of stepping into this next chapter with me as CEO and Sal Khan as our vision steward. The two of us are kind of leading us into this next phase of ted. And I've been working with our leadership team, thinking about what is the kind of strategy that is going to best position us to have the greatest impact that we should and could have in the wider world. And I have been doing. The team has kind of come together in a beautiful way to do great work on that. And there was a question of. I was asking myself of kind of when to bring the board into that process. As I was my internal monologue, as I was reflecting on when is the right time to bring them in. I realized that I had been delaying almost bringing them in because. And I didn't know why at first, right. I was kind of thinking, like, what is that? Why am I delaying this? And I really kind of dug deep to. And at first I thought it was like, oh, it's not ready, it's not ready. It needs to be farther along and then I'll share it. But as I reflected and dug deeper to the kind of root cause of that feeling inside me that was causing me to delay it was that I was worried they were going to disagree. Right. Or they were going to think the work was. Was wrong or different. And as soon as I came to that conclusion, it was like, oh, well, I need to. If that's the case, if that's going to be their reaction, if that's the worst, I need to get that input now so that we can move forward. And so I don't know how maybe to summarize the shell shedding moment other than to say the kind of really getting to that root cause of what's causing the challenge or behavior is so important in my work. And I have found that I work with an incredible coach who is helpful because I'm a verbal learner in many ways. That's not a phrase. And so I talk things out and it's almost just the act of reflecting on it in conversation with. With my coach that I was like, oh, wait, I need to just do this right away. And that will enable me to us to move. To move forward.

A (14:24)

Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? I think a lot of shell shedding moments is often about letting go of something. And if you can figure out, well, what is it that I'm holding on to, then it often becomes easier to figure out, well, what would it take to let go of it?

C (14:39)

Yes, I love that.

A (14:41)

And I think for all of us, that's different. And, you know, for Some people listening, they'll go, it will be something to do with like perfectionism. For some of people it'll be because they just care. But to the extent where they're going, yeah, but if I care so much, I can't let go of it. Like I do that sometimes. Like, I found one of my sort of big changes from working for big companies to working for myself is I cared before. I always thought I really cared before. But you really care when it's your own company. And so sometimes I just really, I really struggle to just let it go. And that wasn't a sort of almost a characteristic that I'd seen in myself until I was in a new context. And I think that's also interesting with like the transition you've made into your role is, I think, you know, the environment we're in, the role that we're doing. Shell shedding can look and feel different. And one of the things I always think is really helpful for people to think about is shell shedding moments are inevitable, would be my hypothesis. Does it matter what stage of your career you're at, what role you're in, what industry you work in? Everyone's going to have these shell shedding moments in their squiggly career. And you usually can't anticipate exactly when they will happen or what they will be because often, you know, often they're out of our control. They often do kind of just come our way. But I do think perhaps you can build some habits or take some actions that then help you. I sometimes think of it as like your resilience reserves. So when the shell shedding moment happens, you're like, okay, but I have, I've sort of been investing in myself to this point and it's not going to make it completely easy, but it might make it more, it might make it easier, it might make it more copable with what are some of the things that you do like as a CEO to sort of look after your energy, your resilience, your well being? Because I sense from listening to you, like you've thought about that and you sort of take that seriously.

C (16:38)

There's so many ways to answer it. One, I think is the people you surround yourself with. Whether you call them, you know, some people call it their personal board of directors, some people call it their team. I've always called it my team. The people cheering me on in life. And I feel so grateful. I've been thinking a lot about kind of like how I lucked out to have such an incredible group of humans around me. And then, you know, I would also underscore, I am such a believer in coaching. I have worked with different coaches in my life and each one of them has transformed my, you know, has significantly impacted my trajectory in large and small ways. And I'm so grateful to each of them for kind of helping me navigate.

A (17:21)

Yeah, it's very, really interesting. I think one of the watch outs that I often talk to people about in their careers is, is people are so good at building the relationships that they need for their day jobs, but not so good at building the relationships they need for their development. And they, they kind of deep that gets deprioritized because everyone's committed and they're working hard and you know, everyone's in demanding jobs. And then I'll sort of, I will often ask people as part of a workshop or a program, you know, do you feel like you've got the right people around you? Like you said, your team or however you want to describe it. And I'll get people doing a bit of a exercise or a gap analysis, being like, okay, so if you've got someone who does this, someone who challenges you, someone who takes a coaching approach, ask us good questions, is a really, you know, an insightful listener. And often that's where people will then say to me, oh, I realize maybe I've got my friends or my family, but actually almost beyond that, I sort of haven't really invested in, in myself. And so just like listening to you, one of the things that I think you can do, everyone could do right now, ready for any shell shedding moment that might come your way is like, invest in getting the right people around you. And the last question we're asking all of our CEOs is what's one piece of advice you would give to our listeners if they are in a shell shedding moment right now? And it's hard and it, they're kind of, they're not in the new shell yet, so they're not, it's not big and better yet, it will be like, stick with it. So it is feeling, it's feeling hard, it's feeling jelly like, like the lobster gets when it's kind of in that vulnerable state. What would you want to leave people with?

C (18:57)

For me personally, I often hold the shell shedding moment to myself. You know, yes, I have an incredible community around me and I don't always remember and I might be sharing it with them, but I may not be sharing it with the person I'm kind of almost like most afraid to share the shell shedding moment with, if that makes sense. And I have found that to be one of, one of the unlocks to move through it is to name the moment and the challenge to the person that I'm kind of most afraid to name it to so that I don't feel like I'm carrying it alone. And that in some contexts is your boss to say I'm worried not hitting this target or finishing this thing in time or what have you. In some context it's to your peer because you're worried about letting them down or just someone in your personal life for another reason. But naming it and share it's just it shares it in many ways.

A (20:01)

Yeah, I think that's the genius in that advice. Like say it to the person you're scared to say it to because that's what will stop. That's what will start to kind of build that new shelf. That will really help you. Logan, thank you so much. I do appreciate as a CEO who is sort of still really in that first three months, you have so much to do and taking the time to share your words of wisdom, your insights, your ideas with our listeners. I'm really grateful. I know people will have really enjoyed listening and watching. So thank you so much.

C (20:33)

Oh, Sarah, it's a pleasure. Thanks Sarah.