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CEO Shell-Shedding Moments: Opening Up about Mental Health at Work with Zaid Al-Qassab
00:22:56
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- [00:00]
A
Hi everybody, it is Helen from the Squiggly Quiz Podcast. And before you listen to today's episode, I just want to do something that I honestly find quite hard. This is no joke, the sixth time I have recorded this and that is because I'm going to ask for help and it doesn't feel easy for me to do, but here we go. We are now very close to our new book, Learn Like a Lobster coming out. It comes out on the 5th of February, which means if you pre order now, it makes a really big difference to us. If you don't know how the book thing works, pre orders mean that books climb the charts, it feeds the algorithm, and more people see our work. That means we can help more people with their career, we can help more people to grow. So if you've been considering the book, if you are a supporter of Squiggly, but you just haven't done it yet, please, please, please pre order now. It makes a really big difference to us and it means we can reach help and support more people with their Squiggly career. I'm not going to say any more, apart from thank you. Thank you for all of the support the Squiggly Careers community give us. And let's get on to today's episode.
- [01:03]
B
Hi everyone, it's Sarah here from the Squiggly Careers podcast. This week it is the launch of our new book, Learn Like a Lobster. So we've got some very special podcast episodes for you. Each day you will hear me talk to a CEO about one of their shell shedding moments. Something hard that has happened, what's helped them and how they have found their way to growing even bigger, better and stronger, just like our new friend and role model, the lobster. And I really hope you enjoy hearing from the range of CEOs that you'll get the opportunity to learn from this week. CEOs who run massive creative companies, who run fast growing scale ups, charities, volunteer organizations, and even our very own Helen, who's our CEO, will also be talking about her shell shedding moments. So I hope you enjoy each of the conversations and if you've got any feedback or reflections, we always love to hear from you. We're Helen and sarahquigglycareers.com Zaid, thank you so much for joining us for this very special episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast.
- [02:06]
C
Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here.
- [02:08]
B
Before we dive in to your shell shedding moments, I wondered if you could give us a bit of a window into your world as a CEO. So most of our listeners won't do the job that you do. And probably maybe that's not a job they'll ever do. You know, most, most people don't end up doing a CEO job. So, so I just wondered whether you could give people a bit of the reality of the day to day. What do you spend your time doing? What does a typical day in the life of a CEO, if such a thing exists, what does that look like?
- [02:40]
C
Well, I think it's certainly nothing like what people might imagine because I think if you were to ask a layman, a woman in the street, they would say, oh, CEOs run companies. And I suppose there's a really short headline. I suppose that's right. But as anyone will appreciate who's doing their own job, the CEO doesn't really do their job. They're rarely there when they're working or at a desk or in a meeting, or in a factory or in a shop, the CEO is almost anonymous to them. So the CEO clearly isn't actually doing the work of running the company. So what are they spending their time on? When I took this role, someone said to me, well, CEOs basically do strategy and organization. So they don't do any of the work day to day. They do what's the direction of the company and what's the sort of people and capabilities and capital needed for running the company. And I suppose that's right. But again, it doesn't give people much of an insight. I would say I spend a third of my time thinking about the future of the business in a way that the people working on the day to day don't have the time for. I probably spend about a third of my time thinking about the shape of the people and the tools and the capability and the things that we invest in. And a lot of that frankly is going around meeting people, getting a sense of what's going on in the business, of where our strengths and weaknesses are, of what people on the day to day job think we should be doing and should not be doing, just having a sense so that we can change direction. And because we're a listed business, I probably spend about a third of my time on stuff to do with investors and the markets and analysts and things like that, which no one ever sees unless they're the CFO or CEO really. So a lot of that is stuff people have never experienced. I'd certainly never experienced it before I became a CEO. And it's all a rather strange world that works very differently from how you'd.
- [04:43]
B
Think thinking now about your shell shedding moment. So as a reminder for our listeners, I think in everybody's job, it doesn't matter what career stage you' or what job you're in, we have these moments where we feel vulnerable. It's probably quite energy zapping, just like when the lobster loses that hard outer shell. We sort of have these moments where we do feel quite jelly like. But perhaps what's reassuring is knowing that after those moments or kind of through those moments, you end up growing, learning, and ultimately better because of it. Even though at the time, I think it's very rare that it feels that way. But sometimes it can be quite nice to know that these, these tough times have really good payoffs for our progression, for our, for our development. And I think sometimes from the outside in you, you know, we all look at people like yourselves in these, you know, in these CEO jobs with impressive titles and running companies, and you think it must all be smooth sailing. They don't have these shell shedding moments because they know what they're doing and they're kind of super smart. But I think everybody has them. So that's the reason that we wanted to talk to CEOs for this first series, was to really make sure that everybody felt that this was like, this is a universal idea. So do you have an example of a shell shedding moment that you're prepared to share with our listeners today?
- [06:04]
C
Well, I have many examples, but the most seismic one for me was undoubtedly the moment I decided to open up at work about the fact that I have depression. I'm going to use the word coming out for this as an expression, not because I'm liking, likening it to the experience of the LGBTQ community, but just it's a suitable phrase to borrow. And, and there isn't really a terminology for it. And one of the reasons there isn't a terminology for people talking about depression is it's still slightly taboo. It's still one of those things you often don't hear about. If you look at the stats, you're talking about something like a quarter of people having a mental health challenge in any given year. That, that's a lot of us. And you certainly don't hear a quarter of people walking around talking about the fact that they've got mental health challenges. So my close family knew about it. I probably experienced it for, I'd say about 10 years, probably before I came out about it. A few close friends knew and that was about it. And so, and so coming out about it opening up about it was a really big deal for me mostly because I was really worried about the reaction actually. Yeah, it's not well talked about, so it's not well understood. Even though it exists in every family, it's, it's not a good fit with the archetype for our industry at all. Right. Marketers, meant to be high energy, life and soul of the party, constantly creative. You know, that's the role they play in a team or in a boardroom. And although actually, you know, being depressive has no necessary compromise on any of those things. I just knew that wasn't the perception how it would be thought of. And frankly, resilience and stability, which is what you look for in leaders, they're kind of the opposite of how the media portrays depressive people. You know, usually very up and down, very moody, very non committal, hard to get to do anything. So again, the stereotype out there is not very aligned to the sort of attributes that you want. And as a leader, frankly, you know, who, how does it affect people's opinions of you? You know, who wants to follow someone who says they're a depressive? That's not a rational reaction. Right. But it, but I could absolutely see that that might be an emotional reaction. So it was a, it was a big deal.
- [08:36]
B
And I guess the difference between us and lobsters is that the lobster doesn't choose, it doesn't choose to shed its shell. It's, it's part of its DNA and it kind of happens. Whereas what you've just described is a very intentional choice because it was, it's not something that you have always shared. Like you said, you, you'd experienced it for 10 years, but then there was a kind of a moment where you made, you made a decision. What was it that made you think, like, now is the time where I do want to shed that shell. Was there a particular conversation or did you just feel like actually it's almost harder to not talk about it than it is to talk about it because it's a really scary, scary thing when you, there's so many unknowns, you know, everything you just described there. I don't know how people are going to react to me in my role. I don't know how, whether people want me as a leader. There's lots of, lots of uncertainty that you can't get a definitive answer on before you make this decision. So you're entering that shell shedding moment knowing that there's lots you don't know.
- [09:34]
C
Yeah, look, and, and, and since I have been open about it. Of course, many people have been very complimentary and said, it's really good that you talk about it and what a brave thing to do and how helpful to others. I think I have to be honest, half of it was, yes, being helpful to others. Half of it was quite selfish. Right. I'd really change my lifestyle to help manage my depression. For example, I'd stop drinking. And in our industry, that's quite hard to manage. Right. I mean, there's a lot of places and parties and events where it's just booze being served and you get viewed with great suspicion, especially by your own team. Why isn't the boss drinking? Is he just watching us? What's going on here?
- [10:14]
B
Or does that mean that I shouldn't drink?
- [10:16]
C
Yes, exactly. You know, it feels like you're making a big social statement. I wasn't, I was just not drinking because it, it helped me manage things. I'd started or gone back to playing tennis regularly. I do that because that's my little mind space. That's. That's my way of decompressing. And it's really important for me in my, in my lifestyle choices and in managing my depression to play tennis. But that means that sometimes I was sort of leaving the office at 5 o' clock and going, sorry, I have to leave, I'm off to play tennis. And again, doesn't really fit with the archetype of a leader of a business in our industry. You know, you should be there all night, you know, working on a pitch or an emergency that's happened on the business. And again, I was finding those things hard to manage. And frankly, it was just really hard work, hiding the fact that there were things I was doing because I didn't want to say, I'm managing my depression, right? So. So I think it was voluntary, but it was not entirely altruistic. It was partly about getting my own state of mind, right, and being able to be myself. People use that expression, bring your whole self to work. And I, I find it somewhat misleading because no one brings their whole self to work or we'd all be turning up in our PJs. But, but, but, but, but there is, there's some parts of you that are very difficult to hide at work. And that was one for me. So, you know, I think the moment was going well. I know it could help other people if I'm open about this. I've always known that. But I hadn't realized previously that maybe I needed to help myself a little bit about it.
- [11:54]
B
And has anything Surprised you. So since you have been much more kind of open, almost like since you've shed that shell, like you said, lots of people have responded, really. But have there been any surprises along the way?
- [12:08]
C
I was surprised that even after lots of preparation, I still found it very difficult and emotional. I mean, the first person I told at work was my boss and I cried, which I wasn't expecting to. Of course it's emotional. To me, it doesn't. I'm not embarrassed that I cried, but having prepared really well for it, I didn't think I would break down in tears when I talked about it. But, you know, I think that it meant a lot to me and it was a huge weight off my chest to be able to explain myself and have someone who could understand what was going on in the workplace. I mean, I won't say it was a surprise that people came out and thanked me, but without giving away names, I had at least half a dozen people, senior people in our industry, who messaged me privately and said, I have depression too, but I've never told anyone about it. So I'm grateful for them because they've confided in me. I've never let down their confidence. But it surprised me how many people out there, and they're just the ones who responded, felt, yes, I'm in the same situation, but I don't yet feel that I could talk about it. So those messages were surprising. Now, look, I understand and accept that I'm in a privileged position. I was senior when I did it. C suite. I'm a CEO now. I think it is easier for me to do it than for someone more junior because they will be fearful of the effects on their career and how they're seen and a bunch of things that I didn't really have to worry about. I'd already sort of proved myself in my career and got to a relatively senior role. So I guess it's harder for more junior people, but I would still encourage them because I know what a huge boost it is to be able to be open about those things. And thankfully, you know, generationally, obviously I'm towards the end of my career and people who are towards the beginning of it, thankfully, are growing up in a world where it is a bit more common to be able to talk about these things and that it's considered the right thing to do. And I'm delighted that it is because it hopefully will make it easier for them.
- [14:13]
B
One of the things that we know is we've been asking people to fill out their learn like A lobster profile, which gets people to map the three different aspects of the kind of fascinating features of a lobster. So kind of grow as you go. Like learning as you go. The learning in hard moments that we're talking about today and leading your own learning. And about a thousand people have done those profiles now. And it's learning in hard moments that is by far and away the thing that people find most difficult. People will say, I can learn after the moment, you know, when I've. With the benefit of hindsight, when I've kind of gone through the moment, I can maybe reflect back. But in the moment, it does feel hard. So when you were in that moment of sharing, you started to talk to people, you talk to your boss, you talk to people in your company, started to become much more public. What do you think helped you kind of in that moment, whether that was a day, a week or a month, just in terms of. For yourself, kind of finding your way through that, that. That difficult shell shedding, kind of awkward, vulnerable time where for a lot of people, they are just in coping mode, like make it through mode, we sometimes call it versus learning mode. And that's the thing that we're really trying to help people with, is very small ways that you can still learn and grow, even when it feels hard, whether somebody's going through a redundancy, sharing something for the first time, maybe they've got a really challenging culture that they're working in.
- [15:40]
C
When I first talked to my lead team, one of them thankfully fed back to me afterwards and said, it was really lovely you told me that, but I didn't know how to react because I didn't know why you were telling me, and I didn't know what I was meant to do with it. And I didn't know whether I was meant to be a shoulder to cry on or that you were getting something off your chest or that there was an important next step, or I was meant to take care of you. And I realized from that conversation, thankfully, to that person, that there was an adjustment I needed to make to how I was doing this. I needed to explain to people why I was doing this and what I wanted them to do in return. So in terms of that learning in the moment, the fact that I'm a talker and hopefully a listener too, and could get that feedback live was really helpful. I think that's how I learn. I do it by seeing how people react. And then, oh, that didn't go down quite well. I should do something differently next time. So it was a learning in the moment experience, it just required adjustment, sort of constant adjustment.
- [16:42]
B
Well, what's really nice about that, which is one of the things that we actually talk about about learning in hard moments, is fast feedback. So actually somebody was, like you said, actually kind enough and probably brave enough to give you some fast feedback. One of the things that we would encourage people to do as well is get really good at noticing. Like when I listen to you describe how you navigated that time, I sense that you're good at noticing, noticing people's reactions, noticing maybe what's not being said or where people are getting a bit stuck. And so I think if you're in that hard moment, if you can notice, it can often give you data points to learn from. Oh, people all look a bit confused when I've told and actually confusion wasn't maybe what I was expecting. So. Okay, so why are people confused? Maybe it's just because they've not got the clarity of like, what do you, what do you want from me? Like how, how can I support you?
- [17:31]
C
Yeah, look, and I'm a people watcher, self confessed, you know, so I like that sort of.
- [17:36]
B
Are you sitting in a cafe and watch people go best person?
- [17:39]
C
My favorite holiday activity is to sit in a cafe and watch people go past. And, and so I'm used to that. I still think that when you're in these hard moments, you're so self obsessed, you know, trying to do what you're trying to do. Right. That it's really hard to notice those things. And I don't know if I would have if someone hadn't said to me afterwards, by the way, Zade, I don't know how you wanted me to react and I don't know what I was meant to do. I mean that was hugely, hugely helpful that they did. Would I have noticed it otherwise? I'm not sure.
- [18:12]
B
Yeah, it's hard. One of the techniques we try and support people with, we talk about how you can get distance because if you get distance, it gives you a different kind of data for your development and practicing what we call the fly on the wall technique. So because you're so in it, you know, with your experiences, you know, obviously you're feeling that and it's, it's that it, it will just be emotional and there's kind of a lot going in and you're so close to it because it is you trying to get people to just even momentarily be that fly on the wall as if you were kind of watching that can sometimes just give you enough, just enough Data to go, oh, okay. That does help me to notice that. Notice that a little bit more. I'm doing an episode on that recently and people found that helpful.
- [18:53]
C
I'm a massive fan of the fly on the wall. I think that personally, I think the way you use it best is to try and forget what you know about the situation or the business and observe as if you're a fly who's just flown into the room and doesn't know any of the background. Because if you do that, you start to pick up on the things like the reactions or the confusions. If you go in with all of your own knowledge, you can't really be a fly on the wall. You have to just watch and go look at what's going on here in this particular interaction. And you get a lot out of that. I really believe in that. I believe in that in terms of assessing the business and the strategy as well, not just in terms of hard moments.
- [19:33]
B
And so if someone is listening now and they are having a tough time, so the reason actually they've, they've picked up this podcast to, to listen to or to watch is they're thinking, I'm in one of these kind of shell shedding situations and they're feeling a bit stuck about kind of where to start. Because I think often people feel stuck and or often the combination of two things. They feel lots of doubts, you know, like it starts to feel like I failed or I'm going to be made redundant because I'm just not good at my job or I'm in a toxic culture, but I just can't get out of it. So it often feels very fixed. You're very stuck and then your self belief takes a real knock. So there's a lot for people to kind of cope with kind of during that time. What's one piece of advice you would give to people listening if that's kind of where they are now, just to start making a bit of progress, to start maybe some of that learning and growing that we know can happen.
- [20:32]
C
Well, I don't think it's rocket science. I'm not going to be able to say anything that many people haven't said before. But you are not alone. And you mentioned redundancy. I've been made redundant. I'm a CEO now. Right. It happens to pretty much everyone you know and it feels like the worst moment in your business life at the time. But it is a part of how the world works. Right? You are not alone. Use your friends, family, peers at work, ideally, you know, most People have someone at work who's their work confidant, who they talk about things with, and that's a great help. Use a mentor. Use a coach if you're lucky enough to have one. But there are plenty of people who will give you mentoring and coaching without officially being called a mentor or coach. Right. They're just called people you know and admire and feel close to a good listeners and who are friendly. Right. So the, the most important thing is you're not alone. Use the experiences of other people. Find out how they would approach it. And even if I've been in that situation, if they're a sympathetic listener and someone who you trust, you'll get good advice from them. I think that is the most important thing. And I lean really heavily on my family, my friends, my colleagues who I trust at work. They're my, they're my bedrock for all the difficulties, moments in, in work and all the difficult, difficult business decisions.
- [21:52]
B
Say thank you so much. I really appreciate it today a your vulnerability and honesty was sharing a shell shedding moment because you've sort of already been through the experience and then I've made you relive it for the benefit of us and our listeners. So I am very grateful for that and for combining what has been a really inspirational conversation, but with some really practical advice I think everyone will be able to learn from. So thank you so much.
- [22:17]
C
It's absolutely my pleasure. Thanks, Sarah.
- [22:19]
B
Hello, it's Sarah again. I just wanted to say thank you for listening to today's episode. I hope regardless of what role you're in or what stage of your squiggly career you're at, you're finding listening to these CEO interviews useful and relevant. And there's something you've heard today that feels helpful for you in your career and so that we can all learn a little bit more. Like a lobster. Thank you for listening. And we're back again tomorrow with another CEO interview.
- [22:46]
C
Sam.