← Squiggly Careers
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- [00:00]
A
We're experimenting with this new format of Borrowed Brilliance, where every week either Helen or I have found something that we think is intriguing, is interesting, but then really focus on trying to turn what we've learned into something that feels really useful for us at work.
- [00:16]
B
The reason we really like Richard Feynman, he was just very curious. The way that he approached learning, the way that he asked questions, he has this whole spirit around the more questions the better. And actually the more we just close things off, that's not very good for our learnings. The Feynman technique is all about teaching what you are learning as though you are teaching it to a child. Number two is the idea of having a don't know notebook and it will just keep a whole running list of things that you didn't know.
- [00:44]
A
You know, there's that work cliche of don't bring me problems, bring me solutions. Actually, if problems in organisations are seen as something to share and to discuss, you get to very different outcomes. And actually you're much more likely to solve the problems. Hi, I'm Sarah.
- [01:01]
B
And I'm Helen.
- [01:02]
A
And this is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. Every week we borrow some brilliance and turn that curiosity into actions that we hope will help all of us to navigate and succeed in our Squiggly careers. And this is a slightly different format for Squiggly Careers for everybody who listens. Every week you'll be very used to us turning up with strengths or how to get a pay rise, or what do microaggressions mean? To pick a range of different topics and we've got to 500 episodes and we felt it was really important that we kept being useful. So what we don't want to do is repeat things that we've already done and keep saying the same thing, because I wouldn't listen to that podcast, let alone everybody else. So we're experimenting with this new format of Borrowed Brilliance, where every week either Helen or I have found something that we think is intriguing, is interesting. It could be anything. It can be books, data points, a post we've read on LinkedIn, anything that we're like, oh, there's something. There's something brilliant to borrow from there. And then what we're going to do in the podcast is share that with you, but then really focus, as always, on trying to turn what we've learned into something that feels really useful for us at work. So how would you use what you've learned in a way that feels relevant, regardless of what role you're in or what stage you're in in your squiggly career. So Helen very kindly volunteered to go first. So, Helen, who, what or where are we borrowing brilliance from this week?
- [02:31]
B
We have a who. We have a who this week. And my who is Richard Feynman. I shall hold up one of his books. This book is actually written by Peter Holland, so it's not by Richard Feynman. So if you're new to Richard Feynman, a kind of a bit of introduction to him and his work. He's definitely outside our normal world. He is a physicist, a Nobel Prize winning physicist who worked.
- [02:54]
A
I thought we'd start strong.
- [02:55]
B
Yeah, we've gone. This is like the deep cut. He was known for his work on quantum electrodynamics and amongst other things was involved in like the atomic bomb. It's quite interesting actually, just reading about some of the times and insights that he had actually on developing that. It's interesting, interesting perspective. I say that because I have read a few of his different materials and I picked up one of the books that's been written about his work, which was called the Pleasure of Finding Things Out. Because the reason we really like Richard Feynman is because he was known not just for his physics, but also he was just very curious. The way that he approached learning, the way that he asked questions. There's just a lot to learn from how he learned, which is what we're going to focus on today. But I was on a flight recently and I thought, oh, you know what? I'll pick up another Richard Feynman book. The Pleasure of Finding Things Out. Exciting it. Yeah.
- [03:48]
A
Yes.
- [03:48]
B
I was really influenced by the title, really influenced by the title. And then I realized it was essentially a compilation of eight talks or presentations that he had done on science. But like deep, deep science, what I do recommend is learning from how Richard Feynman learnt. And there are three particular things that I have pulled out that I wanted to talk to Sarah about to get her take on how she might put these into actions that I have learned from Richard Feynman. Okay. So the first one is called the Feynman technique and it is a way to learn so that it lasts. That's probably my kind of summary of it. And it's all about teaching what you are learning as though you are teaching it to a child. So whether you're learning about, you know, science or simplification or, I don't know, design thinking, whatever the thing is that you want to learn about, the idea is if you learn that thing and then imagining you are teaching it to a child. So you're having to explain what you are learning in a really clear way. You've got to make it really simple language. It's often harder to use simple language than it is the complicated language and no jargon. So you can't fall back on, you know, the acronyms that we might use at work. It has to be really, really simple and really, really sticky. And this, this process of imagining you're teaching what you have learned to a child forces your brain to do a few things. So the first is you, because you're working so hard to keep it simple, you also start to notice where you might have some gaps because you're like, oh, I can't, I can't quite explain that thing. So it's a really good way of getting to gaps in your knowledge. It also means that you're having to sort of mentally organize your thoughts because you're probably doing a bit of sequencing. So if you do this, then this happens and that's the outcome. And that sequencing is really useful for our brain to retain information. And just the articulation of it means that it makes more sense to you. So if you imagine I could just read a book or listen to a podcast and that information has gone in, or I could then think about teaching it to a child, my brain just has to work a lot harder in order to do that. And it's in that process that what you learn starts to last. So what do you think about this approach?
- [06:17]
A
Well, the first thing it made me think of is obviously we recently did our squiggly skills times AI sprint. And one of the things I think AI often does well is like act as if you know, that's a useful prompt. And one of the prompts that I've been using recently when teaching my own child, so a real life example is saying to an AI, this is a concept or an idea. Explain it to me as if I'm an 8 year old, because I have got an 8 year old and sometimes he will be struggling to understand something and I am struggling to explain it to him too because I think, well, probably I don't necessarily understand this or I've not learnt this for a while. So last week he was learning about the obscura camera and these are like really like the early, earliest ever cameras. I mean, this is literally what I ended up, you know, you'll end up learning through osmosis, through however old your kid is. So, yeah, the first ever cameras and they were like massive and like also obviously he's never even really seen cameras because obviously he just used phones. So even, like, you could see him, like, really. And I could see he was really struggling to get his head around. He had to, like, read something to understand, like, what was being written about the camera, but he didn't even understand what the camera was. So obviously I was showing him some pictures. And. And then I was also, like, why am I trying to explain this? Why am I not just asking AI to do it for me? Tiny bit lazy. I was quite tired, you know, at the end of the day. Also, I don't think I could do a good explanation, even to you now, of what this obscure camera is and, like, the way it works and how it could sort of be half outside and then project images inside so that people could, like, trace over them and stuff. So looking at some pictures definitely helped me. But I was actually thinking, there's you. There's an action here about, like, you teaching to other people, but there's also an action about if you're not sure on something or if you're. If you're kind of stuck on, like, a concept or you're trying to understand what this means. Obviously, you could ask AI to help you, or you. Or you could practice on AI and say, how would you make this simpler? And get some. Get some ideas for language that you might take away or words that you might use or examples to bring things to life. Often that really helps kids. Or, you know, it's a bit like, that's, you know, if you can make a comparison to something that people really understand. Like, the people, I often think, who are quite good at doing this is when you go to some exercise classes, you know, sometimes people will say, like, one of my teachers the other week said, imagine you've got a marshmallow in your belly button and you've got to, like. You've got to crush it. That's how much she wanted you to, like, pull your stomach in. But it was really like, everyone knows what a Malteser is. You know, roughly what the size of a Malteser is. And you could. And it sort of makes everyone laugh, which was like. I thought that was quite a good thing. You know, kind of makes sense.
- [09:05]
B
Is it a Malteser or a marshmallow? Because I feel like they're gonna, like, have slightly different reactions to your tummy. I've got, like, a melted chocolate.
- [09:10]
A
Yeah. She was like, I mean, yeah, you're right. When you think about. I mean, if you go too far, it doesn't work. But the idea of like you've gotta crush it is like quite. It was like, oh, okay, I've got a really light squeeze. And that's what she wanted everyone to do. And I thought, oh, that's a good example of explaining something that's quite hard to get your head around in a way where it's like, that would make sense if you like crush, crush something that, you know, kind of works really well. So I think this is the smart thing.
- [09:34]
B
The only thing I would say, you know, with your suggestion of AI, I think that it is an add on, but not an alternative to. Because I think the point of this is that you, you're doing the thinking, right? So you're taking the learning in and you're doing the thinking. How would I explain this? What would the steps be? And so if you just go, oh, I've read this book on, I don't know. Yeah, and I'm gonna. Can you summarize it to make it more simple? That is not what I think this technique is about. The, the Feynman technique is learning in a way. So it lasts by sort of organizing and reducing your knowledge yourself. But I think you can get, you know, your. If you are then going to share it with people, like your Morteza marshmallow thing, you probably could help you with some sort of memorable ways of visualizing it that. But I don't think it replaces you doing the kind of the mental work for yourself.
- [10:25]
A
It also reminds me of the Helen How To's. So one of the things that you put in Squiggly Careers in Action each week, our newsletter, and they're always really popular, is where you do a kind of Helen how to the. But for you to do that, and I'm not saying you're like teaching it to kids, but essentially you have had to understand a concept. You've got to explain it in a clear, simple way because we sort of always try to do that. I'm assuming when you do that you must sometimes think, well, I've got a bit of a gap there, or I don't know, I don't know that thing, or I can't explain that in quite the same way. So, you know, to your point about adding in, I feel like you've added this in really well with your Helen how to's.
- [11:00]
B
Well, and actually that point around, you know, the gaps and spotting the things that you don't know. This links to idea number two from Richard Feynman that I really like. And it is the idea of having a don't know notebook so lots of us might. I might read a book and you might write down, oh, that's an interesting statement. Or that's, you know, you highlight a quote. So we're sort of collecting lots of bits of knowledge along the way. And you organize those however you like to organize them. But his point was it is equally as useful to collect what you don't know. So if I'm listening to Sarah and Sarah says a statement, I think, you know, I haven't. Maybe I haven't read that article or Sarah just mentioned that thing and I don't. I don't know. It's almost like I think this is noticing what you don't know rather than ignoring it and placing as much value on having a list of things that you don't know as having, you know, a book of things that you do. And what he would do is he would, like, be in lectures or listening to his colleagues or whatever, and he would just keep a whole running list of things that he didn't know. And then he would go back to his list and he would then work through them. So it then became like a to learn list. So it went from like his don't know notebook to a to learn list. And he would just put some time aside. And he had this practice of constantly turning unknowns into knowns. And I was thinking about a way that I have done this is I have a list of don't know words that I'm not going to say, though, because I'm sometimes really embarrassed that I don't know. But I guess this is the point. Having a don't know notebook is actually a bit exposing because you're like, oh, here's a. So all these words, I have all these, like, words that I'll read in, like, the newspaper, and I think, I don't know what that word is. And then I will go and I write the word down, then I write down a definition of it. So it becomes like, I don't know. It's like my own personal dictionary of stuff I didn't know. But over time, and sometimes I'll come back to it and I'll think, oh, could you find a way to use that word? And because I like language and I quite like noticing what I don't know with words. But that was like my small way of doing it. But I think I could probably do it more in the context of work, in conversations.
- [13:11]
A
So I used this last week. So I did know this already. So actually, don't know notebook is one of the expert insights we Included in Learn Like a lobster. So in our new book, which if you have been listening to podcasts for the last few weeks, has been relatively unmissable, I'm guessing if this is your first time listening, you might be like, they've written a book about lobsters and learning. Go online. You'll. You'll find it very, very quickly. So we were both familiar with this idea and I was in my first strategy away day with a new board where I'm a non executive last week. So I knew there was going to be a lot that I didn't know. I didn't even know most of the people, let alone, you know, let alone the content. And it's in an industry that I don't know. So I was like, well, I'm not going to know the industry, I don't know the people. And we're going to be making quite a lot of decisions or I'm going to need to ask some questions around lots of things that probably just will be, because I just don't know. And I was also quite mindful of like, when the right time to do that is. So what actually really helped me was writing down the things that I didn't know. I could then decide when the right time was to move from unknown to known because sometimes it was just over coffee, you know, we'd be in a coffee break and people come and chat and I would just say, oh, someone. It was always like an acronym or jargon that was often was quite a good time to be like, oh, you know, that, I don't know, recruitment. Like, what does this mean? And they'd be like, oh, yeah, I sort of forget that we don't, you know, we don't explain that it's an index or whatever. So I would sometimes do that. Sometimes I would just say it in the moment and it gave me the little push to be like, you don't know. You don't know. You don't know what they're talking about here. So for you to be able to be useful and to ask a good question or to make a useful contribution, you have got to ask this question, Sarah. And that's okay. Knowing that probably 70, 80% of the people in that room would already know the answer. And so I just, I found that quite. It's funny when I've done it and actually when I've recommended it to people in workshops, you'd think it would be daunting, but it actually ends up being reassuring to know what you don't know because I think it Stops all of the things that you don't know just like pinging around in your head and just feeling like it's like really overwhelming. It's probably a really long list. And I think you create some clarity and make what you don't know much more concrete. When I have done this in workshops, I've done this quite a lot in workshops in the last two months. Everybody always picks AI at the moment. I'm like, right, give me something you don't know that much about. And everyone's like, AI. And then I just get people to frame their don't know notebooks as questions, like, what are the questions that you've got on AI? I don't understand the difference between generative AI and agentic AI, whatever it might be. I don't know how to build my own chat GPT. And everyone keeps talking about it, whatever it might be. And actually, once people get started, the long list of questions, people start picking other people's questions. They're like, oh, yeah, that's a really. I'm going to add that to my don't know. No, but actually it becomes a really nice way to. Of everybody feeling confident. I think about getting started with that don't know to know. And I think I've almost taken this mindset this year when I've been thinking about things I don't know to be like, well, what are you going to do about that? That knowledge is not just going to magically appear. You've got to take some action. So I really like this one.
- [16:29]
B
I think the question to teams as well, like, what don't we know? Is a really good place to start. And I also was thinking about when you've got someone in your team who's either like, new to the business or the project or the team that you're in, saying to them, like, over the next week, just keep a bit of a notebook of what you don't know and we'll catch up at the end of the week and I'll try and, you know, help you fill some gaps. I think that makes it much safer for somebody at the end of the week to be like, I don't know what these five acronyms mean, and much more positive rather than, you know, when people often start a new role, it's where, like a gremlin about being found out will often grow because they're thinking, oh, I'm supposed to know this by now, or I'm supposed to have come with all this expertise and it's like, this is just hard, isn't it when you're new. But you could make it really safe for somebody to have a lot of like don't knows in that first week and then be the person that helps maybe fill the gaps. I would feel a lot. I think I feel a lot safer asking questions and admitting my gaps if someone had done that for me.
- [17:27]
A
I love that quote that you found. Do you want to say that?
- [17:29]
B
Ah, yeah. I really like this quote. So again, this is one of one of Richard Feynman's from one of the books and presentations that he'd done. I would rather have questions that can't be answered that than answers that can't be questioned. And I think yeah, he has this whole spirit around like Sarah said, turn your don't knows into questions. This whole spirit around, the more questions the better and actually the more we just close things off. That's not very good for our learning. So yeah, it's why we're so like attracted to his spirit I think of learning. So the last one I think is potentially the most random but or the most playful one is called problem testing. So he says that, you know, lots of people will carry around problems with them. Like we don't know how to, I don't know, update the website or we don't know how to solve this issue that we've got with this.
- [18:20]
A
I was thinking something really different when you said that.
- [18:22]
B
Go on.
- [18:24]
A
But I was thinking like, oh, I don't know how to cook. Last week, last week I tried for the first time to watch a poached egg.
- [18:35]
B
Yeah. Oh my, that's quite ambitious. A poached egg.
- [18:38]
A
Well, that's what my partner told me when he found me in the kitchen. He was like, what are you doing? And I was like oh, I thought I really want to delve into have a bit of a healthier lunch. And he was like, why have you started with a poached egg? I was like oh, I like them, I like the taste. And he was like no. And yeah, dead me didn't. I was like one of my problems is I can't make eggs.
- [18:57]
B
Wrong. My 8 year old can make scrambled eggs. Poached eggs are ambitious.
- [19:01]
A
But I was like, oh, maybe I need to, maybe I need to change my problem. Okay, so there's work ones too. But that's I think all problems. Right.
- [19:09]
B
Presumably, yeah, you are right. I'm not undermining that as a problem. So from I don't know how to cook and that's a problem for making simple, nutritious lunches. For myself to. I don't know how to update the website. More of a everyday, work related one. We all carry a range of problems around with it.
- [19:28]
A
It was because I had a day where I had two bowls of porridge and two bananas in one day and I was like, I have got to be able to cook more food than.
- [19:35]
B
So you went from like quite white food to more white food. I think, you know, like the eating the rainbow.
- [19:42]
A
The eggs are quite yellow. Bananas are yellow. Are they?
- [19:46]
B
They're not the inside of them. Right? We're not. This is not a podcast on nutrition, but I would love to have that conversation with you.
- [19:53]
A
You know when people think, oh, like when we were like busy and they're like, oh, how do you make everything work? I'm like, well, Sarah just eats porridge and bananas.
- [20:02]
B
I mean there's a lot of good stuff going on. There's a lot of good B vitamins, slow releasing energy. But we'll, we'll move on. We'll move on from now.
- [20:08]
A
So how do I test this problem? Tell me.
- [20:10]
B
Okay. All right. So you have all your problems, which could be a range of things. So lots of people have lists of problems. That's not really the, the, the thing that he's sort of unlocking here. What he says is you have like one list of problems and then you have a list of solutions. But they don't have to be connected to your problems. So just when you like see things, you're like, oh, that's a really cool way of, I don't know, opening a bottle. Let's say you're like, oh, that's a cool packaging innovation. They've really solved like, so there's not enough, there's not as much waste or. Okay. For example, I am currently growing herbs at home. It's very opposite to you with. But I've got like this new propagator thing that's got a light so they can grow. We've got 24 hours. So it speeds it all up.
- [20:54]
A
So you're like, oh, that's quite a.
- [20:55]
B
Cool solution to have. Like, you know, so your plants grow quicker and look after them. So you basically just start collecting solutions to stuff. Things that you're like, oh, that's quite smart.
- [21:04]
A
Well, that's quite into problem. So you just, you just go, that's a good solution.
- [21:08]
B
That's basically this week you could be like, what are four things that are problematic? And then you could be like, what are four kind of interesting solutions that I've seen everything from. I don't know, subscription models to packaging, it doesn't matter. But then what you do is you look at them sort of together as a group and you say, oh, how could there be some connections between these things? So how could the fact that I don't know you don't know how to cook be linked to a subscription model I've seen? And I'd be like, oh well, why don't you get a subscription based food thing? Or you're like, I already do that. But that's. It helps get it connect some dots and think differently about a problem.
- [21:52]
A
Well, I suppose the solutions are borrowed brilliance. Right. If you think about it in a, in a different way when you. It's kind of collecting, it's kind of being really curious and collecting things that are smart or that do something different or solve a problem that is just really useful or that make your life easier. And maybe sometimes we are too worried about the kind of straight lineness between I've got a problem, here's my solution. And actually I have read this feels more relevant than the poached egg story, which I will come back to. I did read some research around, you know, there's that like slightly work cliche of don't bring me problems, bring me solutions.
- [22:33]
B
Yeah.
- [22:34]
A
And I don't know why I said in that voice, but I feel like that's the, that's the vibe. It's also the end of a day at Bunday. So we've lost, we've lost focus for the day. What the research found was that actually that narrows people's thinking and it stops people exploring possibilities and being curious because they feel like they can't even have like a discussion. So if I was coming to you with like a problem, it was almost like, oh, I can't talk to you about the problem because Helen would have expected me to have come up with an answer. But maybe there isn't one right answer or maybe I don't know what the answer is yet. And they were saying actually if problems in organizations are seen as something to explore and to share and to discuss, you get to very. You get to very different outcomes and actually much you're much more likely to solve the problems. Ironically, by not kind of going down this route. And I feel like what's quite nice about this is you're going, well, not every problem has a really linear solution. There are problems and we need to know what they are. Let's say for our company we might be like, right, what are amazing ifs, top five problems to solve. And then along the way, we want to make sure we're borrowing brilliance, collecting good stuff, collecting clever solutions. And then at some point, I guess you probably would want to try and pause and just be like, well, what have we noticed from all of the good stuff? And does any of it connect? Does any of it help us kind of solve that problem in a new way? Because I suppose I can see independently both of the things. Easy to see, the problems, easy to collect, the smart thinking. I think, I think we're both quite good at that anyway. Good at that in our company. But I probably would still need a moment when I'm like, well, when are we bringing those things together? Right? So that's probably a team. That'd be a great thing to talk about.
- [24:16]
B
That's where I got to on this. And I think, oh, this is like your. I mean, he was just. He just did this himself. He would just have his notebook and he would write his problems down on one page and then to random solutions on another and spend time doing them. But I think this is actually a more helpful process to do in a group. And I think you would give people, let's say we were going to chat on Friday, maybe on Monday, you say, over the next couple of days, I just want you to look out for really interesting solutions, interesting ideas of how people are approaching things differently. Everything from, you know, advertising, product, anything, just bring them. And then you get together on Friday and you say, okay, so let's talk. What are our top three team problems right now? And everyone just kind of gets a couple of minutes to share something, like an interesting solution that they've seen, and you're just playing with the problem. And I think it works better with either repeated problems, you know, problem that's not going away, or a weighty problem, a problem that's really getting in the way. Not like, not a small problem that could be solved tomorrow. Because I think I probably don't need to play with that for ages. That's not. That's not this. It's the naughty, messy ones that need a bit of creative thought. I think this is what this is good for.
- [25:22]
A
Well, if you can fix it fast, it doesn't feel. It's not worth it. Yeah, like you're like, well, sometimes you just need to sort. Sort something. And I think that's okay too. Yeah, I think your word playing is a really good one. I'm like, you're playing with the problem, you're exploring, you're being curious. It's probably problems where the answer isn't Obvious it isn't easy or maybe you've tried solving the problem and it didn't work. Yeah, that's also interesting because you're like, well, we maybe tried the obvious answer or what we would have typically done or what you've seen other people do, but it's not got us to where we need to get to. So we need to, you know, like this, this is going to open up your thinking, you're going to be thinking differently.
- [25:58]
B
So let me just summarize then the three ideas that we got from Richard Feynman's work. And then we've got a bit of an AI prompt which I'm not going to read all of it because I think it'd be really boring. But what we'll do is we're slightly updating, we're slightly updating the POD sheet just to make it easier for you to put these into action. So I'll put the AI prompt into the POD sheet so you can cut and place and kind of get that, that insight. And I'll also, in the POD sheet put a link to a really good article from Shane Parish who has, has written a bit about Richard as well. So just in summary, the three actions to try out. First of all, the Feynman technique, which is about teaching something you're learning as if it was to a child. The second is the don't know notebook and the third is sort of playing around with problem problem testing. Sarah, which is your favourite of the three?
- [26:41]
A
I think so the don't know notebook I already use. It's probably my current favourite but the one that I would want to try out and experiment with would be the playing with a problem. I'm going to use your phrase, I like playing with a problem.
- [26:53]
B
I was thinking we could do that together a little bit. I like the don't know notebook as well. I thought I might do it even a bit. So the AI prompt, then the prompts, I mean it's relatively short but you can cut and paste it from, from the POD sheet, but it's. I am a Insert your job title in a. Insert the context with which you work in. So for example, I am a project manager in a large bank. I want to tweak my week to bring in some Richmond Feynman style learning. Write down five questions I could start my day with and then it will generate like questions. So as an example, if I had to explain today's key project update in one sentence, what would I say? So it gives you a bit of a prompt that won't take you very long to respond to that. You know, if you're weak, it would just put you slightly more in that Richard Feynman kind of creative, curious, super learning style.
- [27:40]
A
I did read one of those questions and thought, crikey, if I'd had to do that today. There's one that says, what's one thing on my agenda today that I couldn't easily explain to a new joiner? And I was thinking, what's one thing I could explain to a new joiner based on what I have done today? You know, you were like, if I was trying to explain my day and what we've done and why today to somebody who was like, brand new to, say, careers and amazing earphones, squiggly and all those kind of things, I was like, that would actually. But I was like, that's a really good insight for myself. In terms of doing okay. Sometimes you probably do need to kind of stop and figure out, like, in a really simple, straightforward way, what am I doing and why am I doing it? Because sometimes I think you sort of lose sight of that because you're just so used to what you do.
- [28:26]
B
I would love to end with one more quote from him that I like, which is that being wrong isn't a bad thing like they teach you in school. It's an opportunity to learn something. So even if you give these ideas a go and it goes wrong, that is not. That's not a bad outcome because you can still learn, you can still blind by doing it.
- [28:43]
A
So a bit of a different format for this week and we would love to know what you think because the plan is to keep recording our Tuesday episodes in this way, some Borrowed brilliance, and hopefully turn that into some useful ideas for action that you can use at work. Still with our kind of work lens, I think that's the bit we're good at. So you can email us, it's helenand sarahquigglycareers.com or you can connect with us on LinkedIn and kind of message us there. But we would really like to know what you think. The only way we can do more of what's good for you and improve and do our even better ifs is if you tell us. So please do. But I think that is everything for this week. We hope you have found it useful. We hope you like the new format. We've got some really good borrowed brilliance to come in the next few weeks. We kind of already know where we're going with a few different ones. We're going to try out lots of different things. It won't all be people. There'll be books, There'll be objects, object 1. There'll be data and all sorts. So hopefully you'll have some fun with us learning and listening along the way. That's everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening and bye for now. Bye, everyone.
- [29:46]
B
Sa.