Squiggly Careers Live: How You Can Keep Learning at Work (Even When It Feels Hard)

Summary

Squiggly Careers Live:

How You Can Keep Learning at Work (Even When It Feels Hard)
Date: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This special live episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast, hosted by Helen Tupper and Sarah Ellis, brings together stories and insights on how to keep learning during the tough, "shell-shedding" moments at work. Anchored by the metaphor of the lobster—creatures that never stop growing because they’re willing to shed their shells—the event features candid discussions with guest speakers Maya Richura (mental fitness and visualization expert), Tamaine Ekerell (co-host of the Making Money podcast), and Amy Conroy (Paralympian, Squad Games co-founder). Together, the group explores vulnerability, resilience, authenticity, and strategies for continuing to learn in the hardest times.

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Main Discussion Themes

The Lobster Metaphor & Learning in Hard Moments

• Why Lobsters? The team uses lobsters as a growth role model:
  • Lobsters have indeterminate growth—they never stop growing.
  • To grow, they shed their hard shell, which leaves them temporarily vulnerable (jelly-like), before regrowing a bigger, stronger shell.
  • The old shell becomes fuel—they use what they leave behind to keep developing.
• Learning is Hardest—and Richest—When We’re Uncomfortable.
  • "Learning doesn't make the top of our to-do list in those moments… but it’s where we grow the most." (Helen, 06:51)
• The Importance of Staying Curious: The podcast grew out of Helen and Sarah’s own need to keep learning and remain curious together (02:30).

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Key Discussions & Insights

1. Maya Richura: Mental Fitness & Visualization (09:00–22:30)

Maya’s Story

• Former elite athlete whose journey was derailed by severe ulcerative colitis at 15.
• Suffered physically & emotionally but found hope after a chance introduction to visualization while in hospital:
  • “What Helen doesn’t also know is that I knew about your work when I was at university, because… it’s okay if you don’t, you know, go into one job and spend 30 years there.” (Maya, 10:51)
  • Visualization (mentally rehearsing walking) became both a coping strategy and a new passion, ultimately helping her heal and build mental resilience.

Insight: Shell-Shedding is Hard, But Necessary

• Resisting tough moments increases pain—acceptance (“surrender”) leads to growth.
• Mental fitness—the skill of working on your mind—is as vital as physical fitness, but under-prioritized:
  • “So many people doubt their potential but they don’t doubt their limits. Why?” (Maya, 17:43)
• Visualization isn’t only for athletes; it’s about rewiring your brain to handle discomfort, setbacks, and fear.

Memorable Moment

• Maya’s pursuit of working with Nike is a prime shell-shedding journey:
  • Repeated, unreturned outreach; faced rejection and embarrassment but persisted through visualization and self-belief.
  • “My shell was broken. My ego was dead… But every day I was visualizing me at Nike somehow, whether it was doing an event with them, working with them, something. So I was wiring my brain to not give up.” (Maya, 18:50)
  • Eventually, became Nike’s first-ever Mental Fitness Trainer—a testament to grit and not waiting for opportunity, but creating it.

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2. Tamaine Ekerell: Embracing Not Knowing & Learning Publicly (22:30–41:14)

Tamaine’s Career Journey

• Held a wide variety of jobs but found his most challenging “shell-shedding” moment as cohost of the Making Money podcast.
• Joined as a finance novice and initially tried to pretend expertise, but quickly realized authenticity resonated most:
  • “It was really scary because I thought, I have to be a finance expert. But then… my cohost and my director said, ‘You don’t need to be an expert, you need to be yourself.’ ... People in the YouTube comments were like, it’s really refreshing…” (Tamaine, 24:22)

Learning In the Open & Handling Feedback

• Publicly acknowledging gaps (“What is ROI?”) gave listeners permission to learn with him.
• Stresses the value of honest, constructive feedback:
  • “Asking for feedback is really valuable… but it needs to be honest.” (Tamaine, 28:50)
  • Overcoming nerves by preparing, exercising, and sleeping well.
• Encourages actively seeking critique and making note of mistakes to avoid repeating them:
  • “Write down on your notes: do not interrupt in capital letters... speak slowly in capital letters…” (Tamaine, 35:12)

Notable Quotes

• On self-disqualification:
  “Most people disqualify themselves. So if you think, ‘I’m not good enough,’ then you probably won’t be.” (Tamaine, 34:42)
• On improvement: “You have to make learning part of your life… Consistency is the most important thing.” (Tamaine, 39:36)

Memorable Moment

• The “podcasting is basketball” metaphor:
  “You can’t be a podcaster and not watch your videos. Embrace the cringe. It’s like a chef: taste your food.” (Tamaine, 36:51)

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3. Amy Conroy: Resilience Through Disability, Sport & Humor (41:21–59:07)

Amy’s Story

• Diagnosed with rare bone cancer at 12, resulting in leg amputation and grueling chemotherapy.
• Her relationship with her father—cheerful, endlessly supportive—anchored her through loss and change.
• Learned resilience through adversity, and found basketball as an outlet and source of self-worth and community:
  • “It’s not those ‘cushti’ success stories that distill who we are, it’s those times when our backs are against the wall and we’re having to dig really deep…” (Amy, 44:26)

Insight: Noticing, Humor & Owning Vulnerability

• Humor and kindness are key coping strategies:
  • “Sometimes just when you’re at your lowest, a bit of sense of humor… you really can change people’s day…” (Amy, 49:24)
• Admits to earlier internalizing negative perceptions about disability—had to “shed” her own self-doubt and self-censorship to join the national basketball team.
  • “I was the one getting in my own way… Sometimes whether you feel ready or not, you just have to get in the arena and go for it.” (Amy, 56:58)
• Stresses that failure (losing games) builds more learning than winning; honest post-mortems and dealing with egos helps teams improve.

Practical Wisdom

• Control your attitude if you can’t control the circumstances.
• Notice negative mental habits—what are you focusing on?
• “Don’t wait for everything to be perfect… be your own hype man and go for it.” (Amy, 58:55)

Memorable Moment

• On not letting “what ifs” and insecurities stop you:
  • “Now I’m not going to let what ifs and self-doubt and my own insecurities let me limit my own goals or dreams… Don’t be the one holding you back.” (Amy, 57:10)

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Notable Quotes & Q&A Highlights

• On Authenticity:
  “All of us are born very, very unique, but most of us die a copy of someone else… Life isn’t about just having more things and copying. It’s about being more—more of who you are…” (Maya, 60:54)
• On Self-limiting Advice:
  "Never take advice from someone who hasn't done it... people will limit you based on their perspectives." (Tamaine, 62:35)
• Longest-lasting Advice:
  “Train so hard until your idols become your rivals.” (Amy, 60:53)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 01:08 — The origin of Squiggly Careers and learning as a path through work-life's squiggles.
• 04:05 — Introduction to the lobster metaphor and why it’s central for lifelong learning.
• 09:00 — Maya Richura’s story and the power of visualization for growth.
• 22:30 — Tamaine Ekerell on embracing discomfort, authenticity, and learning in public.
• 41:21 — Amy Conroy, paralysis, sport, humor, and shell-shedding for true resilience.
• 56:45 — Amy’s advice for not letting self-doubt limit your growth.
• 59:31 — Guests share the best advice they've ever received.
• 62:55 — Closing thanks and final group encouragement.

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Final Advice & Takeaways

• Keep Learning, Especially When It’s Hard: Shell-shedding moments are inevitable and are where growth happens.
• Embrace Discomfort as Data: Don’t avoid hard feelings—lean into the learning.
• Feedback Is Critical: Seek it honestly, process it bravely.
• Community Matters: Share mistakes, be honest with those around you.
• Be Your Authentic Self: Don’t let external voices or your own doubts shrink your potential.

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For more resources, tools, or inspiration, sign up for the “Squiggly Careers in Action” newsletter or pick up their new book, Learn Like a Lobster.

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[End of Episode Summary]

Transcript

[A]

Hi, everybody.

[B]

It is a very happy Helen from the Squiggly Careers podcast. And before we get to today's episode, I just wanted to say a huge thank you from me and Sarah for everyone's support with the launch of our new book, Learn Like a Lobster. It is out in the UK now, it is out in the US on the 24th of February. We cannot wait for this book to start arriving with everyone, the thousands of people who have pre ordered it and it'll be arriving at their houses right now. Please feel free flick through the book, let us know what you love, take photos, share it with us on LinkedIn. If you haven't ordered it yet, now's the time it's gonna come straight away. But yeah, a huge, huge thank you for us. We're really excited to see what everybody thinks, to see what actions people take, and to start turning lobster learning into the new norm at work. Onto today's episode. Hi, I'm Helen.

[A]

And I'm Sarah. And this is a very special episode of the Squiggly Careers podcast.

[B]

Tonight you're gonna hear us talking to three guests who are gonna share their shell she stories with you. And we hope that their insights and what they learned will inspire you to look differently at the hard moments we all experience in our Squiggly career.

[A]

Thank you all so much for coming. I know it is rainy and miserable outside and I had a panic about two hours ago. I was like, no one's going to come. Everyone's going to go home. There's just going to be our team sitting on the front row and we're going to have to use AI to put everybody in the seats. So I am very grateful to have real people in the room. So just in case you maybe have been dragged along by a friend on a rainy evening and you're like, who are they and what is this? Why are the lobsters everywhere? So I'm Sarah and this is Helen, and together we host a podcast called Squiggly Careers. So thank you to everybody who listens because I know lots of you will do and just give me a wave if you've been to a live podcast before.

[B]

Yay.

[A]

Thank you for coming back and if it is your first time, thank you for trusting us that it's going to be worth it. Also, the bar opens when we finish, so it ultimately is always going to be worth it. I was actually reflecting on my way here about a shell shedding moment that Helen and I had about the Squiggly Careers podcast about six months ago, and the decision that we were making might have meant that none of us would have been in the room tonight. We'd done 500 episodes, and we were starting to think about, are we still useful? What's the right thing to do? Do we want to do things differently? And I was saying, maybe it's time to stop. Maybe 500 episodes, we've had a good run. Other people have got brilliant podcasts. We've been useful. Maybe let's pause. Helen had a different perspective. I think we should do twice as many podcasts. I think we should do two every week. Now I'll let you decide who won the debate, but we do now do two podcasts every week or learning for everyone. Now, I like to think the real winner was learning. And I do sort of mean that without wanting to cringe too much. But I think the reason, actually, we decided to keep going is that the Squiggly Careers podcast started because Helen and I wanted a reason to be curious and keep learning together. And 500 episodes ago, when it was just Helen and I and my mum famously just listening and messaging me each week saying, oh, good to know that this is happening in your world. Since then, lots more people, 5 million people have now downloaded the podcast. But I think the thing that I hope makes it useful is it is just Helen and I learning, growing as we go, and hopefully sharing that in a way that helps you to do it, too. And I think all of our work on Squiggly Careers over the last 10 years, that's the thing that we keep coming back to. You've just got to keep learning. You've got to learn how to learn. You've got to stay curious, because that is what will help you to navigate the squiggle, the ups, the downs, the good stuff, and the kind of hard moments.

[B]

So tonight we're going to talk a little bit about lobsters, about a specific thing about lobsters. I'm hoping that some of you might have done the sprint. Who sprinted with us? Who did the.

[A]

Ah, you're the best.

[B]

Okay, so you're already pretty expert in lobsters. Some people in the room might not be. So we're going to dive in. Pun intended. I know they're coming. They're coming to learning like a lobster. But for people that might be new to why we're talking about lobsters, we think that, to Sarah's point, it's never been more important to learn at work, and we recognize it's really hard to do so to help people look differently at learning. We Want to create a new role model to really spark conversations and, and lobsters are the role model that we want people to look as a way to inspire them about their growth. So three fascinating features of lobsters. One, they never stop growing. They have something called indeterminate growth. So we as humans actually get to a point where we start shrinking apart from our nose and ears. The lobster just keeps on, keeps on growing and the way that it enables its continual growth. In fact, you catch. Can you catch a microphone? This is ambitious.

[A]

I mean I can catch. Can you throw. Thank you.

[C]

Don't give her too much applause.

[B]

She's so mean. That was left handed. Second fascinating feature. She's so proud. Look, she's so proud.

[A]

So the way that lobsters grow is they shed their hard outer shells and then they kind of emerge vulnerable and jelly like. But then that's how they grow back a new shell even bigger, better and stronger. And I feel like I am living this reality of moulting day to day at the moment. My 8 year old son has a praying mantis called Jeffrey Jeff and it turns out praying mantises also moult. I have got a moult of a praying mantis at home if anybody is interested.

[B]

But we didn't write a book about that. Oh, I now have to catch it. So proud. I'm so proud.

[C]

That could have.

[A]

That was actually that surprising.

[B]

Right. So third fascinating feature is that the, the shell that the lobster leaves behind is actually becomes fuel for its growth. So it doesn't waste it, it's very resourceful, it's got full of calcium and the lobster just goes repeatedly through this cycle of growth, putting itself in a vulnerable position in order to growth and then using what it's got to grow. And so we think that there's a lot in that that we can take in terms of our learning. How do we never stop learning? How do we learn in our hard moments? How do we lead our own learning so that our development isn't dependent on lots of things out of our control? So you're going to read loads more about that in the book that you've got. But tonight we want to focus on the feature where there is the biggest gap and that is learning in hard moments. And we've done quite a lot of research on this and it is, is the bit that people struggle with. So that idea of learning, when it feels hard and difficult to do, we often want to like move on and forget that moment or we perhaps spiral in those situations. But learning doesn't often make top of Our to do list in those moments. And that is a shame because it is where we're going to learn and grow the most. So tonight I want to inspire you with how we can do that with our guests.

[A]

So who here has had a shell shedding moment in their squiggly career so far? Redundancies, difficult. Manager, hopefully not sitting next to you. Tricky organizational changes. Shell shedding moments, everybody. Yeah. Anyone had one?

[B]

Razor claw.

[A]

Razor claw. Pincers. We'll all be doing that by the end of the night. So the thing that I think that we all have in common is that shell shedding moments are just part of our squiggly careers. They are inevitable, but we sort of have a choice between you can sort of wait for them to come your way and hope for the best and hope you find your way through them, or I think you can sort of know that they're coming and think about, well, how can I create rather than wait? How can I look for the learning in those moments? Because we do have notoriously bad memories. So if you kind of wait for the hard moment to be over and then you sort of try and look back, you often lose lots of the learning. You might remember the kind of really hard moment, the really hard days. But if you can sort of learn in those moments in a way that is easy and realistic, you can then take that learning with you. You improve your decision, making your judgment. And I often think you get remembered for how you sort of respond to those shell shedding moments. Not the fact that necessarily they happen in the first place because I think everybody recognizes we all fail. We all make mistakes. Hard things come our way. It's sort of like how we show up in those moments that matters.

[B]

So we've got three guests. We're going to talk to them one at a time to talk about some of their shellshilling stories and share some of the learning to inspire you. There are going to be a few interactive moments. Just heads up there coming. And then we've got a little bit of time for Q and A at the end. So I think we should get started with our first guest.

[A]

So we're going to say bye to Sarah. I'm going to leave that there.

[B]

Okay, here you go. And I am going to welcome our first guest to the stage, Maya Richura, who is going to talk to us a little bit about the power of visualization. So Maya, welcome, welcome to the stage. I'll give you a microphone and a lobster.

[D]

This chair.

[B]

Yes. If you go there, well, you can. He can sit or she can sit there for you. I wasn't going to say this, but I feel like it's Maya's birthday today. Thank you for. I know, just a little bit. Just a little bit. So thank you very much for very much for being here. So just to get a bit of context, really, in terms of how we met before, we get into, I guess, your experiences and sort of your shell shedding moments in your career, so we met. I was in New York trying to make some friends. No joke. I was in New York for work and felt like a little bit lonely, a little bit exposed, a little bit a lost lobster. And I messaged a friend, Jody, who has been on our podcast before talking about success for anyone that remembers Jodi Cook. And I said, jodie, I'm in New York. I'm going to randomly hold a rooftop meetup, but no one's going to come. Can you find me some interesting, curious people? And she said, I know one who's brilliant and I think you'll really get on.

[A]

And it was Maya.

[B]

And I wasn't familiar with your work, but then I stalked it and I started on your. Sorry, I looked at it. More appropriate nerves. I went on your Instagram profile and I saw all the amazing work. So Maya is the UK's number one mental fitness and visualization expert. And I was going through all the amazing stuff you share on Instagram and then I took your book back with me on the plane and I didn't sleep on the plane. I was just reading this book. It was amazing. And I've also experienced Maya leading visualization, which you are going to experience tonight as well. So, Maya, mental fitness and visualization expert, can you just give us a sense of your personal and professional journey that's got you to that? Because it's an interesting. It's an interesting role.

[D]

Yeah. So firstly, hi, everyone. It's a privilege and honor to be here. And what Helen doesn't also know is that I knew about your work when I was at university because we got told when we were learning that actually it's okay if you don't, you know, go into one job and spend 30 years there. So I knew you before you knew me. So my journey is a little bit weird. Very long story short is growing up super, super. Like, I loved work, I was very high achieving and I also played badminton for my county and then my country. So I was really excited to eventually go to the Olympics. Unfortunately, at the age of 15, I was diagnosed with something called ulcerative colitis, which is an Inflammatory bowel disease. A lot of people live with it. Unfortunately, mine was so severe that then for the next five and a half years, life looked very different. I don't know how to explain it to you other than what it was, which is every day I was going to the loo maybe 40 times a day. And it's just pure blood. I was on 60 tablets every day. You're getting infusions, you're on steroids, you're on everything, every painkiller. I go to school in like adult nappies and you know, I'd be having accidents where people didn't realize. And so the disease in itself took everything from me. Got to a point where like, couldn't walk, wasn't allowed to go to university because of the situation. And it was in hospital where this nurse basically said to me, she was like, maya, if you weren't here, where would you be? So I replied and I said, piss off because, you know, I was like, I had no hope at this point, really. All I could do was remove my colon and have a stoma back. But I was 18, so. So it felt a lot. And this is where I started learning about visualization. So I, by accident, basically started mentally rehearsing me walking again, something we all take for granted. And then when I left hospital, I basically got very curious about how we can use our brain to help us. That curiosity became passion. So I practiced every day. That passion became like obsessive learning. I was obsessed with it. Every minute I had, I was doing it, learning about it. And I now stand here or sit here today, 10 years later, not only having overcome the disease with no tablets, symptoms, anything, but also I'm genuinely the strongest, healthiest and most confident version of myself. And that is because I learned the skill of mental fitness. And to put it like quite real. Hands up. When you were at school, if you had any type of physical fitness education or sports on your curriculum, okay, going to it was a different matter, but we had it. Okay, hands up who had mental fitness. So you were learning, how do I build my self confidence? How do I stay calm under pressure? How do I achieve my goals without burning out? Who had that? Just look around. No one has their hand up. Two maybe. Yay. Well, let's all go to your school. Because it's kind of crazy for so long we always, I guess, put all the importance on the body, but the mind is what dominates everything in your life. So, yeah, that's how it all started.

[B]

Amazing. And so, I mean, there are a lot even just hearing Now I can hear, I can hear some of the shell shedding moments for you, but are there any particular pivotal ones on that journey where you felt particularly vulnerable and exposed and I guess you had a choice, like, do you stay in that situation and you don't, you don't grow? You're like the lobster sort of stuck in the shell? Or you say, no, I know that this is vulnerable and scary and difficult, but I'm going to, I'm going to use this to grow. I'm going to use this to learn the particular points that stand out.

[D]

I think so. The illness side of stuff, I think isn't always as relatable, but one thing I learned from it was that I think the more we resist the shell shedding, the, like, the more painful it is. And I really found this, that every time I was like resisting it or there was this word which was just surrender to it, which I never understood when I was younger. But I think when we're trying to control things, we just can't control, you really lose control, actually. So coming back to what was literally the immediate thing I can do, even if it was just sometimes take a breath or what's something you're grateful for? And so during the illness, yeah, I mean, the shell was just constantly being taken and broken. And, you know, that is why. But I owe that to maybe the strength I have today. So I'm very grateful for it. Would I do it again? Probably not. But I'm very grateful for what it's made me to be.

[C]

And do you think I was thinking.

[B]

About visualization and some of the people that you are helping with this. So you're helping high performance athletes, you're helping executives, you're helping lots of people to learn this skill to improve. And I would imagine for them visualization is shell shedding. Like actually just kind of going through the exercises or closing their eyes in a room of people and doing it. If you've not done it before, that might feel quite difficult. And exposing how, how do you help people through that?

[D]

Yeah. Do you know, I've been in some situations where like sometimes people can get emotional in the sessions. And especially if you're like working with, you know, a CEO who's very not comfortable doing that. It can be so crazy for them to be like, wait a second, I just cried in front of this person. I think what I find interesting is like, if you go outside, someone running is very normal. But if someone is like say, sitting down, meditating or closing their eyes, we're like, oh, gosh they're a bit weird, they're a bit of a hippie. And so I think culturally there is this stigma that's still there. So every time you take a bit of progress towards your mental fitness, you are literally shedding, you know, your shell, but also structurally in your brain. By you doing something like visualization, you are tearing down the roads in your brain and building new ones. So even on a cellular level, you are shedding the old stuff that's there and building stronger roads, which is why I love, I love this concept.

[B]

So in your work now, if you're experiencing even a, like a small moment of, you know, fear or often shell shutting moments are kind of like when, when we're scared of something, like feedback would be an example or when you feel like you've kind of failed in some way. So we all experience them in our work as shiny as it might look on social media. We all have those moments when you're in one of those now, that moment that you feel a bit like exposed and bit vulnerable. What's, what's your go to? Like, how would you respond to that in that situation now, knowing what you do about visualization.

[D]

I think I'm going to kind of give two answers to this one. And I see this a lot amongst elite athletes, but also in work culture, everyone thinks fear and doubt is like a bad thing. They think that as soon as they're doubting themselves, oh no, like I have to believe it. And I actually think the shell shedding moment is to be like, okay, but I don't have to take that as fact. And you know what's so interesting? So many people doubt their potential, but they don't doubt their limits. Why? It's the same skill, you're just doing it elsewhere. So sometimes it's also that one, change of mind can be so shell shedding for that. And two, you know, so a lot of my research is about, right, what do the most successful people in the world do? What is their mindset? What is their attitude? And you know what the top one comes out as? They love the taste of salt water. Not literally, not literally like an obstacle. Wow, it really works, doesn't it? No, they love a bit of discomfort, but they don't wait for it. They go out and get it. And do, you know, if I think about my career as well, one of the most, I guess, transformative things I had done and it really ties into what you were saying about you can't just wait for those things to come to you, you have to break and then, you know, build it. So mental fitness and being a leading expert in it was not a job. I had to create it. And I had the idea that I want to build the Nike of mental fitness. Now, how do you even begin to do that? I don't know. But I was like, I want to do it. That's my goal. It's my dream. And then I had this idea, well, why not do it with Nike? Seems it makes sense, right? So this was two years ago now. I was like, I'm not gonna wait for them to come to me. I'm gonna go to them. So I found on LinkedIn every person from Nike I could find somewhere in, like, Portland. I don't even know why I was emailing them, but I found, like, about 60 contacts. And I just emailed them all being like, hey, quick coffee, you'll wanna hear this, right? I've got an idea that could change Nike. Literally. I said that. I even emailed the CEO being like, you guys are not doing well on the stock market. This could help. Yeah, I had balls. It was insane. No one replied. Some people said, hey, look, like, let me pass you on to this person. And honestly, my shell was broken. My ego was dead. It was not good. I was like, this is proper rejection. But because it was a goal of mine, every day I was visualizing me at Nike somehow, whether it was doing an event with them, whether it was working with them, something. So I was wiring my brain to not give up, to not let. Just because that shell, you know, came off, that I need to grow a better one. So then every time I was in Oxford Circus, do you know what I did? Went into the store and I was like, can I see your manager? So I don't know what I was doing. Manager comes and say, hey, what's up? And I was like, look, we need to do an event here. And first time I went in, she was like, cool, let me take your number. Nothing. Second time, nothing. Seventh time, she was like, okay, Maya, here's an email of someone. Go to them. It took me two years, two years to knock on these doors. And I wasn't saying no, because I knew. I knew I wanted this. And I knew I could make it happen, partly because I knew it'd be a value. And then last year was signed as their first ever mental fitness trainer they've ever had in the 60 years of the company. That is not by chance, because when I went to Amsterdam with all the other 100 trainers, they all said to me, oh, my God, when did Nike reach out to you.

[B]

I was like, what?

[D]

They do reach out to people. I didn't even know that. So I think that was an example where I really knew that who I was now wasn't good enough for me to get my goal. So I had to kind of go through that pain of it. And there's this brilliant story of a butterfly where he's in a cocoon, or she. It is in a cocoon, and it's trying to get out because it's growing right from a caterpillar to a butterfly. And there's a man passing, and the man is like, okay, it's really, really struggling. So let me help it. Let me open the cocoon so the butterfly can come out. The butterfly starts flying, and then it falls flat on its face on the floor. See, the butterfly needed to struggle to get strong enough to then soar. And I always remember when I'm going through a struggle, be the butterfly. Remember that that struggle is making my wings stronger so I can fly when I actually need to. And I always remember that.

[B]

It's such a good framing. Like, if we can relook. I don't think it makes the hard moments easier. It's not about. They still feel hard, right? Like, the seventh time was probably still quite hard every time you went in that store to ask. But it does mean that I think we stay more committed. We don't give up. We're always looking. We are looking for the learning.

[A]

This is Tamaine Ekerell, and some of you might know Tamaine from the Making Money podcast, which, if you haven't. I've actually watched it. Usually I listen to podcasts, but I did actually watch this podcast. If you haven't watched it, it's definitely worth a watch. And I think what's really interesting about it and the reason we wanted to invite to Maine tonight is I think money is one of the reasons why we sometimes stay in our shell. If you're anything like me, because. And I'm seeing lots of nods, we avoid it. It feels scary. And actually kind of thinking about money, being more honest about money, kind of embracing the uncomfortableness that sometimes comes with money is really critical. And what I love about Tobayda, we were chatting about this is the sort of enjoying that it's okay to not know. Because I think part of hard moments is the unknown and you don't know. And you might feel a bit like a beginner. And I was saying I always felt a bit embarrassed because I was watching an episode about wills and how important it is to have a will thinking, I haven't got a will. Sorry, sorry, mum. I feel like she will listen and she'll be like, why has she not sorted that yet? But then you. But you said you had the same experience and then you did ultimately sort one live on the podcast, which I thought was great.

[E]

Last week, last week, last week.

[A]

So I feel like you are the. You made me think, I will, I will now do this.

[E]

It was pretty emotional, though. We were talking about my son and I started crying. So that wasn't a good look on the podcast. But yeah, it was. Yeah. Making a will is very stressful, but really important.

[A]

Yeah. So to start us off with a shell shedding moment. You've had a pretty squiggly career. You've done loads of interesting, different things, but is there something that stands out for you where you feel like you have had that sort of uncomfortableness, the bravery that ultimately though, has helped you be bigger and better?

[E]

Yeah. Well, right now I kind of want to be in my show feeling a little bit scared. I'm like, where's my show? But I've done so many different jobs. I've worked door to door sales, women's health, in the medical center, on film road sales, ran a company. But for me, the biggest shell shedding moment has to be doing the Making Money podcast, because I was invited to co host a podcast with my friend Damian. He's one of the biggest financial YouTubers in the country. And I knew that it would be viewed by tens of thousands of people from the first episode because he's got a big community. But I knew nothing about finance. So I'm on a Making Money podcast. We're interviewing all these big shots, and I'm sitting there pretending to be a finance expert, talking about the stock market. I don't know what I was saying. I was like, yeah, Tesla stock is undervalued. I don't know where I got that from. So it was. It was really scary because I thought, I have to be a finance expert. But then after like a few weeks, I realized after a few episodes, I think like the fifth episode, I realized that my co host and my director said, look, you don't need to be an expert, you need to be yourself. And people in the YouTube comments were like, it's really refreshing that he's asking, oh, what is roi? What is epito? What is all these technical terms? Because I didn't know. And when Tomain asked, it made me feel better myself. And the thing is, no one teaches us finance in School, they teach us geography, history, but they don't teach you how to do a will, how to save money on taxes, how to invest, how to avoid dodgy investments. So yeah, we don't have the knowledge. And everyone nowadays, especially on social media and on the Internet, they're all experts. They're like, buy my course and I'll teach you to be a millionaire. I'll teach you trading. I'll teach you this. I'm an expert. But very few people say, I don't understand this. Can you explain it in a clearer way? And I thought it was my biggest weakness, not being a finance expert. But from the YouTube comments and from our podcast, going, well, people are like, I like it when you clarify. I've even got a buzzer. So if they say something I don't understand, I hit the buzzer and go. And I'm like, what does that mean? And then they explain, I'm like, that's great. I still don't understand. So people really find that refreshing, I think. And I think that was my shell shedding moment, realizing you don't have to be someone else. You can be authentic and people will be drawn to that.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's. It's also really interesting, isn't it, that I think to find your way through those hard moments, you sort of have to do it your own way.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was thinking as I was listening to you there, I think I spent quite a lot of time, certainly at the start of my career, you know, pretending to be something you're not.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

And then, then it's really hard to find it through, through tough times because you're like, well, I'm already pretending and that's really tiring.

[E]

And then when you're stressed, it's even harder.

[A]

And then I'm stressed, I'm like, oh, but I don't, I don't want to be like that. Or I'm comparing myself to someone who's very, very different to me. How did you find it then? So you, you sort of discovered the rabbi. Be myself. It's okay to kind of not be an expert, but doing what you do and the way you do it, you know, the podcast is incredibly like, it's very well produced, it all looks amazing. You have loads people watching it and listening. And so therefore you have loads of people commenting and lots of people have an opinion. And you did go from a world where that wasn't your job to suddenly that, that's quite an exposing thing where, you know, everybody's got a point of View. How have you found that?

[E]

On filming days, I. I still get stressed, but I used to be a lot worse. So the night before, I'd wake up 10 times in the night with adrenaline I might have. I overslept, sweating, stressing. Every filming day for the first like 10 episodes, I woke up with a big spot on my forehead or on my nose and I'm like, why? Why? I don't get spots. Why is it coming today? That was before filming. During filming, I'd be like, okay, I've got some points I want to say. And I'd be so eager to say them that I wouldn't be like, in the actual conversation, I'd be like, I've got to say this, I've got to say this. And then I might say something I said, did I say it wrong? Was it stupid? Did I make a mistake? Is everyone to hate me now? And then afterwards is the worst because you're sitting there going, did I say anything bad? And then me and my co host, we normally go for drinks afterwards and that just makes it worse because then we sit there in the pub and by the time we're drunk, we're like, everyone hates me. So. No, everyone hates me. And we have to try and talk each other off a ledge, which is really hard to do. So what I find found help. So I've got loads of notes because I'm like, when I get nervous, I ramble. So I'm like, if I keep the notes, hopefully I'll be on topic. So some of my solutions before filming, I'd always make sure I do exercise so I would take some of the stress off and hopefully sleep well the night before. For example, today I knew that I might sleep badly last night, so I slept loads the night before. So I'm like, even if I don't sleep tonight, I got a good sleep on Sunday night. So, like, worst case scenario, I'll be all right today. And then afterwards, a really important thing to do if you've had. It's not just for podcasting, anything, talking. If you've got a big meeting, big things to do at work, asking for feedback is really valuable because. But it needs to be honest feedback. So you go, how did I do? And everyone will be like, you were great. And you go, oh, you're good. And you're like, okay, cool. Can you give me constructive feedback so I can go from good to great? So that really helped for me. I've got YouTube comments. I was terrified to look watch the video, let alone read the YouTube comments. So my co host is like, you need to just face it head on. But yeah, asking for feedback is how you improve because they'll give you, they'll be like, you weren't that bad, but if you want to be better, this is how you get better. And then you take that on board. Don't get upset, you've got to be strong, take the constructive criticism and then try and improve.

[A]

And I think one of the things that I've noticed from our conversations together, which I think is a really useful approach to shell shedding moments, is also being honest about how you are feeling in that moment. So. Because I think sometimes people assume things are hard that are not for you and the other way around. So in our first conversation together, I had assumed, I was like, well, he's got his own podcast. This is going to be a breeze for him. Kind of no sweat. And you turned up and really quickly told me, actually, I'm feeling quite nervous about this. Yeah. Maybe not something that you kind of do loads like, how's this gonna look? And even tonight you were like. I was like, oh, let's, let's come and have a look at the room. But I think by acknowledging, like how you're feeling in the shell shedding moment, it sort of. You kind of can make friends with the fear a bit more rather than you keep it to yourself. And again, back to that. You're kind of putting a mask on. Then I think it's hard for other people to help you. Like, I have definitely been different and probably looked after you probably more than I might have done other people because I was like, well, I will send him the questions beforehand and oh, if you want to, like, run things by me, oh, do you want to come and have a look at the room? But if I hadn't known, you know, I can't provide that, that support.

[E]

That's true. Definitely true.

[A]

So who else helps you? So you've got a bit like me. You've got a co host, which is always useful. It's always good to have someone you can go. Go for a drink with and decide. It's sort of awful, but okay at the same time. Helen, I've had lots of those conversations. It's like awful and O, but who else? Because I do think having the right people around you during these moments makes a massive difference.

[E]

Really important. You've got to have a team. You can ask your partner. For me, I ask my mom. So, like on the way here, I was talking to her about my questions and things. I was going to say, I'm like, what do you think? And she's a doctor, so she's very good with people. And she always gives me. She's very high eq, so, yeah, she understands things. So she gave me some tips. It's always good to listen to professional people if you want feedback or if you want to learn. Generally, it's always good to go for someone who's like, a little bit above you. So, for example, if you're an intern in a company and you want to get a job and you want to do really well, there's no point going to the CEO and being like, how do you do your job? How do you run this company? Because it's not relevant to you. You need to go to whoever's got the job you want, whoever's doing well in the job you want, and then say, can you give me some tips? Can you give me some feedback on this? And, yeah, always ask for constructive criticism, but I think the most important thing is to always be ready to take it on board and not be offended and not be upset.

[A]

Yeah, because it's interesting. You can ask for feedback, but then often I think people forget how you receive. It makes a really big difference. And not everybody is equally good at giving feedback because it's not always a skill. We've practiced loads. So if you can get really good at receiving, you can sort of let the learning in without maybe worrying about exactly how it's been delivered or hopefully it's been delivered kind of brilliantly. When you're thinking about kind of feedback generally to help you to learn and grow, do you also give feedback or is it you asking for yourself?

[E]

That's a good question. I feel like I'm generally asking for myself, to be honest. I think we're all a bit like that, though. If someone asks me for feedback, I'll gladly give it, but I feel like, and especially in our culture, it's not. We always like, oh, good job. But no one really gives you constructive or criticism criticisms in their feedback. So, yeah, I think it's more for me, but it's being able to accept it.

[A]

Yeah, it's really interesting. I was listening to an interview with someone who'd been a professional rugby player and he's got into media now and he was saying the thing he finds most frustrating is the poor quality of feedback that he gets. So he just gets what we would describe as positive phrase like fab job, or that was great, which makes you feel good. But actually for lots of us, we just dismiss it like oh, they're just being nice so it doesn't actually feel that useful. And he was saying he was so used to being in like a professional sport capacity where they use loads of data for their development, but also it's really clear this is what you're doing well and we want you to do more of it because that's where you're kind of really having good impact. Here's your one work on. That's what, that's kind of what they use. Whereas he was saying like, he just did stuff in front of camera and they were like, yeah, great. And he was like, oh, I'll just kind of go home. And he sort of felt a bit stuck then because of it. I was like, oh, that's really interesting. You mentioned before that you, you sort of are starting to preempt tough moments and thinking about how can you prepare yourself. So the sort of the sleep before the sleep is how I'm now thinking of it. I was like, that's a really good example. Like the sleep before the sleep given. We know we will all have these shell shedding moments. They might not all be as big as a massive podcast with loads of, loads of comments, but kind of those moments that do feel tough but we're never quite sure when they're going to come. What else could people do, do you think, to sort of invest in almost kind of helping to be ready for when that shell shedding happens.

[E]

So there's things you can do before and things you can do in the moment before. It's like, for this, it's always good to be prepared. So, like, the more you prepare, the better. But what we, what I've realized is that most people disqualified themselves. So you think, oh, I'm not qualified for this, I'm not good enough. I've interviewed Deborah Meaden from Dragons Den, the Bank of England. I'm sitting there like, I don't have a big portfolio, I don't have hundreds of thousands invested. Like, why am I talking to Devora Meaden? This is so scary. But you disqualify yourself most of the time. So if you think, oh, I'm not going to be good at this, I'm not good enough, then you probably won't be. But if you're like, I can do this, it's, it's really self, self actuating. Is that what you call it?

[A]

Yeah.

[E]

So I say you have to, if you make mistakes, like, so when you're trying to learn on the go, write it down and be like, this is what I want to not do next time. So to kind of preempt things. For example, me, I speak very quickly, like I said, when I'm nervous. So here I've written speak slowly in big letters. So you've got to kind of know your own weaknesses and accept them. So if something, if you have a great day and they go, oh, it was good, but you spoke too quickly or you interrupted your co host, which is something I used to do. Interrupts. I'm too eager to speak. You've got to know for next time. I don't want to do that again. No point crying over spilt milk. But write down on your piece of paper, on your notes, do not interrupt in capital letters. Speak slowly in capital letters. And then at least you might make other mistakes, but you won't make those same mistakes again. So, yeah, I think it's. You've got to be aware of yourself.

[A]

I think that is such a helpful hack. Because one of the things that we know is with the way your brain works, you're more likely to repeat a mistake than actually to learn from it. You know, we all say, oh, you know, I'll learn from that mistake for next time. Our brains like patterns. So actually, you know, like the, I won't be late again because, you know, next time I'll be more organized and then you're late again. And because it's sort of familiar and that's just kind of how we're used to behaving, you sort of do do the same things. Like, I won't interrupt. If you just think to yourself, I'm not going to interrupt next time, you probably will still interrupt. Whereas actually, if you can sort of get the learning out of your head and I, and share it in some way, like in our team, like it or not, our whole team are made to do mistake moments. We all share our mistakes with each other all of the time so that we can share the learning. Or even if you're just writing it down like you say, it's sort of, you're making, I suppose, the learning unmissable. You've kind of moved on from the mistake. But you're like, but I know what. I know what I've learned.

[E]

I forgot one point. But luckily I wrote it down. My co host gave me something that really changed my life. He said, think of podcasting or whatever you do as like basketball, because I love basketball. I play basketball. He's like Kobe Bryant, my favorite basketball player. He always reviewed his game tape. So every time he'd play a game, he'd watch it. Look at his mistakes. Look at his errors. And I said, okay, next time I'll do this better. And he said, you can't be a podcaster and not watch your videos. I'm like, but I'm so shy. And it's so cringe.

[A]

He's like, you definitely can.

[E]

You can. I know, right? You can get 500 episodes without watching it. But he said, embrace the cringe. So whether you're a chef, if you're a chef, it means taste your food. Don't just cook 100 meals and be like, I'm a great chef. They're going to be great. Test your food. I used to work in women's health. I was giving talks to in the Women's Wellness center in Fulham Road, like, all sorts of women's health. And I used to give motivational talks to the team. And because it was a predominantly female environment, I wanted to make sure that my talks were impactful. So I would give the talk. I'd be like, oh, that was great. But then I'd talk to the team, like, how did I do? What could I have done better? And get feedback from them. And then, yeah, if you're in the office or if you're chairing a meeting, ask people how you did. Ask your bosses, ask your co hosts, your co workers how you did. So, yeah, always get feedback. If you run a hotel, ask the staff, ask the guests how was their stay. Don't just assume because it's a nice hotel, they had a great time. They'd be like, there was no hot water. So, yeah, you need to find out these things.

[A]

That's good advice. I find that very confronting because my excuse is, well, I don't need to listen or watch the podcast because I was there. And that is what I tell myself.

[E]

That's what I used to tell myself.

[A]

Yeah, that is definitely why. Whereas, actually, I think there's a good argument to say it's because I think I would. It would be shell shedding for me to do that. And it sounds almost ridiculous. It's almost embarrassing to say. I find it really tricky to do. So I feel like I am going to. Well, not feel. I am. I am. I'm going to commit to watching this back and try not to hate myself and decide that I am as funny as I think I am after this because, like, I definitely fall into that trap. And there is some really good research, which I always come back to because I do find it really useful. Two Harvard professors did it where they said, if, you know, you're going to do something that's going to feel uncomfortable, you know, it's going to feel tough almost if you kind of write that into the experience. Like, I know that watching this back is going to be uncomfortable. You know, that's a signal that you're sort of getting it right rather than a sign that you're getting it wrong. Whereas almost like, if we're just like, oh, I expect to feel great when I watch this back then, when we don't, when we do feel uncomfortable, you're like, I'm just going to. I'm going to stop it, you know, I won't kind of make it through the video. Final piece of advice for us to.

[E]

Main I've learned from all my jobs and from the podcast that learning isn't really, if you want to improve yourself, you want to change. It's not something that happens overnight. I don't know about you guys. I go to. I watch podcasts, I go to talks, I go to things. I'm like, yeah, I walk out, I'm like, I'm going to make a big change. I feel great. I feel really motivated. Then I go home and I'm like, yeah, I wake up the next day and I'm like, I still feel motivated, 50% motivated. And then three days later, I'm back to normal doing the same things, and I've completely forgotten about it. So improvement is kind of an ongoing thing. You have to. Consistency is the most important thing. So something like Squiggly Careers, the Making Money podcast, something, you have to make it part of your life if you want to improve. So you have to say, it's hard to make changes. But if I go to this every week, I watch this podcast every week I read this book, read a book every week, I know I'm going to develop and the habits become natural to you. So my final note would be, we've got to read so many books for the podcast. Looking forward to reading about the lobster. I liked your last book, but I would say that audiobooks are a really good way to learn lots of things because you can put it on fast speed or you're driving, you're in the shower. You can learn a lot with audiobooks. You can listen to podcasts on fast speed. So yeah, that's my hack. Audiobooks get a lot of stuff done and then make it a routine, make it part of your life. So you're like, every Tuesday, I watch Squiggly Careers. Every Thursday it's like exercising or going to church. Like, every Sunday I go to church, you get the benefits on Sunday. You're very holy on Monday. You're like pushing over your sibling. So it's the same thing. Exercise, you've got to keep at the exercise and with personal development, you've got to make it part of you and just keep going and just make it a habit. And then over time you'll improve and you'll learn and you'll get better.

[A]

Add the learning in rather than just expect it to happen.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Love it. Tamaine, thank you so much.

[E]

Thank you. That wasn't so bad.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Our third guest is the amazing Amy Conroy, four times paralympian and also the co founder of squad games as sort of modeled by the amazing if team here. This is the best team building activity I have ever done and I have done many. I have done many. Not just because I won a medal. I might say again, not just because I won a medal. It is the only medal in my sports club.

[A]

It was a trophy.

[B]

Yeah, I did get a trophy. I tried to find it because I thought wouldn't that be nice for me if I brought it on the stage. But I think my son has taken it. I think he's like claimed it as his own. We'll talk to him about that tomorrow. But I did win a trophy for my prowess. But more importantly, it is, it is just an amazing team experience. Like you can see. I feel like there's so many. I'm in sequins and heels. Debbie at the front is very competitive. Vivy's just. Vivi is just like happy, just happy, just happy. All kinds of emotions happen at squad games and Amy is the co founder of squad games. So I kind of wanted to almost, I guess start at squad games as a way of talking to people about your story before we then explore some of the hard moments and how they've helped you learn. So Amy, tell us, tell us how you got to squad games. How is, how has that come from your. Your career and your personal experience?

[C]

So as you mentioned, Squad games is about shining a light on disability inclusion. So I guess I'll start with how I acquired my disability. This shiny bad boy here. Pride of place on my hinge profile. So to start back in the two leg days, I was this really sporty kid. I would turn up for any school sports, wouldn't let a thing like talent get in my way. I would show up and I started getting this pain in my knee and it got worse and worse over the course of the year. I went back and forth to the doctors, and they'd send me away saying it was sports. Brains, flat feet, growing pains. And I just started high school and then started collapsing. So not ideal. And I remember one time really vividly where I collapsed. And every time I tried to get back up, my knee just kept giving way and I just panicked and I crawled to the nearest building and this was in front of a guy that I fancied at the time. So at that point it was like, enough is enough. My dignity has been compromised. My future marriage to Keir. And John. And I went home, like, where is he? He might be listening note. And I went home and told my dad and he took me to A E the next day and pretty much demanded an X ray. And he'd been called out and I was waiting for him to come back in. He'd been gone ages. And then I kept trying to catch his eye for reassurance. And I remember he wouldn't look at me, looked like he'd been crying. Really solemn atmosphere. The doctor was saying all these big words like osteosarcoma. And then they said that was a type of aggressive, rare cancer. And that's when my heart plummeted for me. At the time, cancer had meant death. My grandparents, my uncle, my mum had all died of cancer. Pretty much thought, oh, cripes, this is it, I'm gonna pop my clogs. At 12, I was given a 30 chance of survival because it spread a lot, spread to the lungs. And I was given a big old wheelchair. And little did I know that when I sat in that chair, that'd be the last time I walked for the next two years. Went home, packed a bag, went into hospital, where I stayed for the course of a whole year, minus a precious nine days at home. Started chemotherapy pretty soon and boy, did it hit me hard. I was sick 75 times on the first day. I don't know what I counted. Soon stopped. Tragic statistic. But it was relentless. It was. If I lay flat on my back, if I move too suddenly, if I spoke too much, if I smelt food, my poor dad would eat his pot noodles on the toilet to avoid. I know. Really undignified image. Sure, he's thrilled I'm sharing it with all of you guys, but it was tough. My hair fell out. Pretty soon I went through the stage of looking like a lollipop that falled on the carpet. Just bits, tufts of hair. Decided to shave it all off. And fun fact, it's the only time I've ever had knits kick a gal while she's down, just running across my bull head. My dad would swat them off. But it really was a tough year. There were lots of surgeries, an amputation when the cancer wasn't responding well enough, covered in tubes. And whenever we lost another kid on the ward, kind of the severity of the situation would always hit home. But my dad is my absolute hero and role model. Always has been, always will be. He stayed with me every single night, often sleeping on a wooden chair. And he just remained the strongest, kindest person. Like he was raising two young girls, looking after his, his wife, our mum, as she was dying, working full time. And I just learned so much from him that year. It's kind of led to all of this and one is just very relatable to the, the lobster shedding their, their shell, but just the power of resilience and. Kind of. He taught me quite early on that nature of life, there's going to be good and bad. No one can get away with coasting through, with all going swimmingly. And so in the good times, it's really important to notice what's good and be present and be grateful. And for the times that are tough for anyone going through that now, you do get through it. It will pass. It does pass. And also good can come from the tough times in the form of strength of character and resilience. Like, it's not those Cushti success stories that distill who we are, it's those times when our backs are against the wall and we're having to dig really deep and we're like, where the hell is the light at the end of this tunnel? And you start questioning like, I don't know if I can get through this. Am I strong enough? They're the times I think you can really impress yourself and be proud of yourself and you gain strength of character and you think, this is who I am, this is what I stand for, clarity for what's important and perspective. Like, there's only one way to get resilience. It's the hard way, unfortunately. But then that's with you for life. And I went back to school after remission. This little bald kid, no eyebrows, no eyelashes, braces, glasses, the whole shebang, one leg, big old wheelchair. I was just so excited to be alive. However, I started getting quite self conscious and soon realized that life was really different. With a disability, I couldn't get in and out of my own house by myself. Going back to school, I couldn't get in any of the classrooms. I was the first kid in a chair So I did lessons by myself. P. Lessons was me throwing a ball against the wall by myself because I was a health hazard. I hope because of the chair. Not. Not my aim. That'd be far too humbling. I would never admit to that. And I just thought back then that life would always be smaller and a bit worse with a disability. I listened to the stereotypes and kept myself in that cage. And that's when I found basketball. And for the first time kind of in a while, I just felt not less than an equal. And it was fun and it's really feisty, as you can attest to you, the leader here.

[A]

It was quite feisty.

[C]

And as cheesy as it sounds, I think it just really changed my whole view of myself and disability and disability sport. And that's what gave the inspiration to squad games of. Because anyone can come and play wheelchair basketball. So that's.

[B]

I feel like you've also massively skipped over, like the four times Paralympian bit in there. I mean, we just, we. I mean, we just have to give a bit of credit as well for that along the way in the basketball. That, that, that's quite a big thing that you've achieved, Amy.

[A]

And we did actually meet Amy's dad, and he was there at the day that we were doing kind of squad games. And I think instantly he's a very calm presence. I would say that was my first impression of him, is he was very calm. He was very grateful for us being there, whereas we were like, we can't. Well, I was like, I can't wait to get started. Amy has just told me I'm allowed to hit people with this wheelchair. She has just given me permission to do this. I was actually the only person who did it, though, in our team. Everyone else was apologizing. Sorry, sorry. I was like, oh, checking in.

[C]

Everyone okay?

[B]

Everyone enjoying this? There's just like, let me get that ball.

[A]

So your dad. Yeah, he does have this sort of calm and supportive presence. And it's just. It's really nice to hear you kind of talk about him as like that. That kind of role model that was immediately there and obviously kind of always there. What do you think has helped him? Because that was. It's a lot for you. It's also a lot for him happening all at once. I feel like there were multiple shells being shed, but all at the same time, you know, there's having a shell shedding moment. Then there's what you describe, which I think is incredibly tough. Like when you. When he reflects, when you reflect. Like, what do you think has helped him?

[C]

Oh, that's a really good question. I think he has a really good sense of humor. There are times when we're at our lowest and we'd have these unspeakable bedpan mishaps that we can't talk about the details this day. And even at the time we'd just be laughing about. So I think sometimes, just when you're at your lowest, a bit of sense of humor. And I think he's really kind and I know people can talk about that a lot, but sometimes it can get lost in like busy lives. With so much happening in the world, you can kind of see, see the bad parts. Noticing the good in people and doing kind little good deeds. You really can change people's day. And it's so cheesy. You can change people's day, whether a good or bad day. I remember one time, one of my precious nights at home and I got really sick and I went to hospital in the middle of the night and I was terrified, sitting in the back of the car, throwing up and these girls looked out the window and we. At 3am sorry, I have a car driving past and it just said, you're beautiful. And thinking back, 3am they're probably drunk, wasted. But it just. And I'm still waffling about it to this day because it just made my day. And you just don't know the effect you're having on people. And even just smiling at people and when they smile back, you start to think, oh, people are great, aren't they? So I think, and I learned that from him and insufferable positivity in our family. But I just think kindness is something that is just a good secret to joy.

[A]

And I do think there's some. Really. There's some. We've had them on the podcast before, ladies called Naomi and Jennifer, who do, who wrote a book called Humor Seriously. And they have actually proved that actually having a sense of humor, people laughing, even like a bit of levity in those really tough times where you sort of got to laugh about it, otherwise you'll cry, actually is really, really helpful. Like high performing teams, you take your work seriously, but you don't take yourself too seriously. So maybe your dad sort of has that magic secret sauce. He perhaps just hasn't been to Harvard yet to learn about the research.

[C]

I was just saying to you, one of my good friends who's really young, had a stroke a few days ago and a few days before that I'd had a really bad hospital appointment. Sorry if this is too vulnerable, but where I was told I'd have to have a pole that comes out of my leg into the bone. It sounds grim and gross and it means you couldn't ever do sport. And I went to visit her in hospital and we cried together. But we also were just making fun of each other a lot, and she was making fun of me having this poll and I was making fun of her speech, and we just thought, oh, this is really terrible, terrible time. But just laughing about it just took the edge off a little bit. And that's probably terrible advice, but just something that I found. Yeah, sometimes things can be really deep and serious. But, you know.

[B]

I think one of the things that I always associate you with yourself, this incredible, incredible optimism that you bring to your work. I wonder, in, I guess as a Paralympian, you're playing lots of competitive games. Lots. You win some, you lose. We're not all doing that in our days at work. But how. How do you stay optimistic when. Because. Because, you know, failure or things not going the way you want them to, that feels hard, that feels vulnerable. So how. Amy's optimism in that moment, how do you draw on it?

[C]

That's such a good question. I could go down so many routes. I guess the resilience is one and something also that I've learned kind of at my lowest times. And it sounds like such a buzzword, but positive mindset and not like the fake force type that's like, you know, woo, chemo's great, I'm having fun. Are you having a hoot? As, you know, when stuff's bad, it's important to talk about it, grieve about it, for mental health. But my dad would always just say there's only so long, kind of you can have a bit of a pity party. It doesn't get you anywhere. And you have to draw a line under kind of the woe is me attitude a little bit. As you often can't control the situation, you can always control your attitude and how you react to things. And if you're like, this is awful, this is so awful, I can't see how I'm going to get through this. It can feel a bit worse. And I know kind of I don't want to trivialize anything. I've got three out of four limbs still intact, going strong. Not to brag, but I just kind of think sometimes if you narrate, kind of what you get to narrate, what's happening around you and what you focus On. And sometimes it can be almost a habit to focus on the negative parts, like the glass being half empty, the leg that's missing. Like, I have a friend and she's always like, oh, there's this. Oh. And then I think it's just a habit sometimes that we can get caught up in. Sometimes holding ourselves accountable and noticing what we're focusing on, I found, can really help me personally.

[A]

It's also interesting, Amy, you said we've actually talked about it recently. You use the word noticing quite a few times. And I do think noticing is a bit of a career secret skill. If you can get good at it, you know, like noticing the voice in your head, is it working for you? Is it working against you? Like noticing what worked well today, noticing what even better. What even better if would be for tomorrow. Like noticing there's more kindness that you could do for somebody else. And I feel like your dad was good at like, also noticing and is good at noticing, like what you need. What you need right now, actually, you just need to laugh about it. What you need right now is just to be kind. So I think that kind of noticing, like, feels, feels really important and in everybody's context, something that we could probably all get a bit better at, you know, because there's loads of distractions now. There's things that steal our attention all the time and that takes, takes away from noticing from sort of being present and in the moment. What do you do, though, when you've, when you've lost a game of basketball? Because I saw you play and you were impressive. I was like watching in all going, wow, there's basketball and then there's Amy playing basketball. And I did seem to be the only person asking you for, like, extra tips when we were having a break, a water break, and I was like, so just give me a few tips for second half. So you must be competitive and you must obviously like love to win, but when you have a bad game, like as a team and you lose and you're all disappointed, how do you kind of use that as kind of data to then think, well, how do we get better? How do we learn and grow together, like as a team? You didn't win every match, did you? I know you were most matches. Did you lose some?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Different times at tournaments you can play back to back and you can be really hyped up and spend almost a year analyzing, say Canada we had recently. And then we lost to them instantly on the first day, which we weren't expecting. We had one night to pick ourselves back up and then go again the next day. So I think it can be really tough. And we've got a lot of egos in the team, so I think knowing how each other's works, knowing each other's, as you mentioned, motivation, and on a deeper level than that, people's why, how to re. Motivate them, like, why are you doing what you're doing to, like, get that spark back. But also I think we've come out stronger after losses because I think with winning, sometimes you get complacent and you think, oh, everything what we're doing is fine. Whereas you then have a bit of a target on your back and people are analyzing you within sport. So sometimes having to go back to the drawing board and taking it all apart and thinking I have to be really honest with myself and have tough conversations and be like, that wasn't good enough. That wasn't good enough for me, having to do it really quickly. And then we usually do that with some biscuits or something. Just take the edge off all these horrible, vulnerable conversations.

[B]

So just one kind of final bit of wonderful Amy wisdom before we bring everybody back on and kind of open up for a bit of Q and A if there was something you've learned. So we talked about optimism, then we all talked a bit about your community, your dad and you. Not mentioned your sister, but I know that she's a big part of your community, a big part of your resilience. I loved what you talked about, about teams and understanding people's why and also sort of watching out for the ego. There's loads of brilliant insight in that watching out one. But is there anything, anything else that you think that people that are listening, people that are here tonight, if they are in a tough time, is there anything that you have taken away from your times that's helped you, like, you know, go again or I guess in the lobster, grow again, which is what we're, you know, we're really helping people to do. Is any other bit of wisdom that you'd impart on people?

[C]

I'm setting tough times, I guess, to keep on the shell shedding theme, which I think I've had many times shedding. Sometimes it's gone well, sometimes it hasn't. Each time you pick yourself back up. But I guess one obvious one was when I was the one who was getting in my own way. And it was when I had this big dream to play wheelchair basketball for Great Britain and I was doing everything I possibly could and this coach had told me I'd have to take my prosthetic leg off to play. And I remember being absolutely mortified at the time and just thought, I genuinely thought, I can never do that. I was so self conscious. I was wearing jeans and FL. Time to hide it. Always had a jumper tied around my waist. There was this teacher at school with a prosthetic leg. The only other person that I knew. And everyone was so cruel about him. And in hindsight I think it's because maybe he wasn't that nice of a guy, but I thought, oh, it's because he's got a disability. And yeah, when this coach had to take my leg off, I thought, I, I can't do that. And I remember crying to my dad, thinking I, I need to go home. And he had a classic dad chat with me, saying, this is your opportunity. Sometimes, whether you feel ready for it or not, you just have to get in the arena and go for it. And I remember having such an anxious night. I don't know if anyone can relate. When you're worried about something and you play it over in your head of how you think it's going to go and you think, well, that might happen, that's probably going to happen. And the next day I remember stood on the side of the court ready to take my leg off. Oh my God. And then I did it. And no one cared. Like, read the room. It's full of so many people with missing bits and pieces. And I just remember that moment so clearly that I was like, okay, now I'm not going to let what ifs and self doubt and my own insecurities let me limit my own goals or dreams. Like, there are so many things in life, whether it's like money issues, barriers, stereotypes, biases, other people and reasons that can stop you kind of dreaming big. Don't then be the one on top of that to be like the one holding you back. Like, be your own hype man and go for it. And I just think you tend to regret the things you don't go for. Apart from my parent and pims Come down with me and came last with a terrible.

[A]

Made me regret that two flights gone.

[B]

Were you on Come down?

[C]

They asked me to come on it and I was like, yeah, sure. Honestly, Twitter were really mean. Quite rightly, I was terrible. But there we go, dead last. Honestly, the guy who came fourth was blind. He was all like Paralympians. I was like, I could have done anything. I could have switched the salt and pepper, anything. And I didn't. And he beat me so that's my one regret. But I just think in general, just go for it like that. All better a oops than a what if. So mine would just be in those moments, just hype yourself, get in the arena. Don't wait for everything to be perfect. Don't wait too bulletproof. That would be my one.

[B]

Amy, you are amazing. And thank you for. Thank you for the complete star. So everyone just give us a minute. We're gonna get Maya and we're gonna get to main back on stage and then we're gonna open it up. We've got a little bit time check. We'll get kicked out. So hands up. If you've got a question for our guests, this is your time to ask.

[A]

We will.

[B]

We'll be around with the microphone.

[C]

What is one of the best pieces.

[A]

Of advice that you've ever been given? Mine was from my joyous father in.

[C]

Law 25 years ago, and he said whenever you walk into an interview, you stand tall.

[E]

And so whenever you feel like you.

[A]

Need to be more confident, just make yourself stand tall.

[E]

And I think, Maya, you touched on.

[B]

That when we closed our eyes earlier.

[C]

So best piece of advice. Thanks, Amy.

[B]

Well, best piece of advice you've had.

[C]

I'm a sucker for a good quote, I guess off the top of my head. And it's, it's quite basketball related, but it started when I first saw wheelchair basketball on tv and they were these confident, powerful, talented players. And I was just the polar opposite. But something in me, some spark was like, I want to be that. There was this German woman in particular, and I was like, I don't know, do I want to be you? Do I want to marry you? Like, and I was just obsessed with her and fast forward a bunch of years and finally made the team. And we played against them at the same tournament and we beat the Germans. And I remember outscoring her and there's a photo of me and I look like an absolute dick. So I'm looking down at her on the floor and I just. It's just a quote that train so hard until your idols become your rivals. And I think it's like how you said with your ambition and it's just like, dream so big and just go for it and give everything and spoiler alert, turns out I did actually fancy her as well as that. So ticked all the boxes.

[B]

It's probably another quote for that. Yeah, it's such a good question. I'd love to get your perspective. Best piece of advice.

[D]

I mean, there's so many, I guess, like, the one that has made the most transformational impact in my life is that that all of us are born very, very unique, but most of us die a copy of someone else. And I think coming back to that thing of authenticity, it's so easy to just. Especially in a world of AI, right, everyone's copying each other. So really come back to life isn't about just having more things and copying. It's about being more. More of who you are and wear your shells and your scars with so much ownership and attitude because no one can replace you.

[E]

Don't let anyone kind of put you in a box or tell you what you can and can't do. My co host, Damien, from the Making Money podcast, he was. He had a job. He was getting, like almost 100k a year working full time. And he's like, it's locked down. He's like, I want to start a YouTube channel. And everyone's like, dude, you've got a great job. It's a big risk. Don't do it. Like YouTube, you're. Most of them fail. And he said, I'm gonna do it. And then he did it while he was doing his job job. And then he said, I'm gonna quit my job. I was like, don't do it. It's too much of a risk. He quit his job and now he's like one of the biggest finance YouTubers in the country. And he's like, got a huge channel. So I would say, don't let anyone put you in a box. I. When I worked in the city, they were. I was a broker, they said, you've got to cut your hair because it's not professional for the clients. You've got to have short hair. That's how we move in this company. And I cut my hair and then when I left, my dad's like, yeah, I cut your hair. You look so good. It's nice and smart. Because he used to be. He worked at Merrill lynch. So he's like, he always. He still wears suits to this day, and he doesn't even work anymore. So once I left that job, I was like, I'm not going to let anyone tell me, like, how I need to look, how I need to present myself. You need to work in this industry. You need to do that. People will limit you based on, like you said, their perspectives. And never take, finally, never take advice from someone who hasn't done it. So if someone's. If you want to open a YouTube or you want to get this job, don't ask someone for advice who's never done it because they'll be like, don't do it. It's too risky. You can't do it. But you need someone who's actually done it to ask them and then they will give you good advice. So, yeah, amazing.

[B]

Thank you. Two things, if that's all right. One, just a massive thank you for Amy and Maya and Maine for being here. Thank you so much. We really, really appreciate people giving us their time and their generosity and sharing these stories with us for the benefit of the Squiggly Crows community. So, like, massive, massive thank you for us. And also thank you to everyone here who has, has come tonight, who has supported us, who clicked on posts and shared lobsters and done everything. Like, we hugely appreciate that. And there's just one little ask if that's okay before you leave. And I know some of you might need to get trains and whatever. Can we get a picture of you holding up your books? John, our lovely photographer here is a very last thing. Thank you. Because this is probably the most lobsters we've seen in a room so far. And so we want to capture it to inspire other people. John, can you?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Thanks, everybody. Does everybody have their books out? Lobsters out. Enthusiasm is good.

[A]

Okay, Here we go. 1, 2, 3.

[B]

Books in the air.

[A]

Thank you so much for listening to today's episode. We always really appreciate you choosing to spend time learning with us. And we also wanted to say a very special thank you to everybody who has bought Learn Like a Lobster. We know loads of you pre ordered and then had to wait months until the book actually came. And lots of you have bought it since it was released. It makes a massive difference to us and we can't wait to hear what you think. You can always email us. We're Helenand Sarahquigglycareers.com but that's everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening and we're back with you again soon.