← Squiggly Careers
Squiggly Careers
The Marshmallow Test: How to Master Delayed Gratification for Career Success
00:30:53
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast. And before you listen to today's episode, I just wanted to let you know about some news that Sarah and I are very excited about, and that is that our new book, Learn Like a Lobster, is ready to pre order now. We really care about everybody learning and growing at work, but we know it is not easy to do, and so we're borrowing some brilliance from lobsters to help you to do it. The book takes three inspiring and surprising abilities of lobsters in terms of how they grow and applies it to how we can learn at work. So if you want some inspiration and you need some practical insights to support your learning, growth and development, this is the book for you. And if you pre order now and send your Pre order to helloearnlikealobster.com you can join the Lobster Library where we have a community of lobster learners ready for you to learn with some live sessions. And this will all happen before the book arrives. So pre order the book now, send it to hello@learnlikealobster.com and and get started with your learning straight away. Now let's get onto today's episode.
- [01:03]
B
They ran an experiment with kids where they could either eat one marshmallow now or they could wait 15 minutes and then they could get two. And what they proved is that the kids that could delay gratification went on to do better in life. They could hold out for the better outcome. And then actually when you do then start to put this into kind of an everyday life context, you do realize it sort of stacks up in lots of different ways. You probably do your best work when delayed gratification is part of the process.
- [01:34]
A
I think ladder, like careers sometimes have a bit more instant gratification things in there, you know, like get promoted, get happy. You know, this idea that, like, if I do that, then this is the outcome. I think our days and weeks are full of one marshmallow decisions that we often do without thinking because of habits that we've got into. If you can start just thinking, what will the two marshmallow payoff be here? With that in mind, what choice do I want to make?
- [02:03]
B
Hi, I'm Sarah. And I'm Helen and this is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. Every week we borrow some brilliance from a people place object book. We go all over the place, but we try to turn that curiosity into some useful action for you and your squiggly career. So, Helen, what are we borrowing from this week?
- [02:24]
A
Well, it's kind of a combination of something, a physical thing and Well, I suppose it's two some things. The concept of delayed gratification and also the marshmallow. I think we're putting those two things together because there is quite a lot of research that has been done. It's called the marshmallow experiment. And this was, this was slightly sort of sparked by a couple of things. I was doing a long train journey to Padstow to meet Sarah to go and meet some lobsters a week or.
- [02:56]
B
So ago, as you do, as you.
- [02:57]
A
Do standard standard week in the life of amazing if. And I was in the train station and I thought, you know what, I'm just going to pick up a random book so I can read it on the train. And I picked up the marshmallow experiment because when we were writing lobsters at one point, when we were writing Learn Like a Lobster at one point there was a chapter on marshmallows. So it's, I kind of thought, which.
- [03:17]
B
Doesn'T sound likely but it's 100% true.
- [03:20]
A
It's so, it's so fun. But it's because marshmallows have been used in lots of different experiments. So there's, there's quite, there's quite a lot learned to marsh from marshmallows. But specifically we wanted to focus on one particular experiment that was done with marshmallows which is around the concept of delayed gratification, which is the topic for today. Sarah, would you like, like to distill in a minute what that research was for people?
- [03:42]
B
Yeah, and I think this is one study and the more you delve into this, people always have the caveats of like is any one study, but if you have got kids, it is quite a fun game to play. And basically they ran an experiment with kids where they could either eat one marshmallow now or they could wait 15 minutes and then they could get two. And I was thinking my 8 year old would 100% just be like, fine, I'll just have the one now he'd like, that's definitely him. And what they, they proved in what is a kind of quite a small sample though, like worth having, worth having that in mind is that the kids that could delay gratification went on to do better in life. You know, like they could, they could hold out for the better outcome because obviously two marshmallows is better than one. 15 minutes is not that long. Great. You just sort of need to, you know, sort of, I suppose the short term sacrifice for like the long term gains and then actually when you do then start to put this into kind of a everyday life context. You do realize it sort of stacks up in lots of different ways. Whether you think about exercise or health, any big work, things that you're really proud of. Typically there tends to be quite a lot of delayed gratification along the way. So I do think it is a useful skill to learn particularly when almost like at the same time there's a bit of attention. It's like you probably do your best work when you've got, when delayed gratification is part of the process. At the same time there are probably more things trying to distract you from that than ever before. More immediate gratification available, I guess.
- [05:14]
A
And I think just in the sort of context of career development, I think ladder like careers sometimes have a bit more instant gratification. Things in that, you know, like get, get promoted, get happy. You know, this idea that yeah, if I do that then this is the outcome. Whereas I think sometimes squiggly careers are a bit more about the delayed gratification which is, you know, like we talk about develop the skills of values, you know, knowing what motivates and drives you and use those as a filter for your future. That means that you might, you might not take a role. We talk, sometimes we talk about like shiny objects. You might not take a job that looks really shiny like because it's got a really good job title or it's working for a really good brand. You might not take that now because you know that actually it's not going to give you what you really need over the long term, which is your value. So you might delay the gratification of moving into a new role because you know that a role that is likely to be better for you in the long term is coming. And I think that squiggly careers are a lot, I think a lot of it is about developing the self awareness to make better decisions about your development. But that probably means you're going to have to use the appeal of some shiny objects that might be presented to you that are quite sort of, you know, ladder like in their appeal for the longer term, delayed gratification of something that's probably going to be a better fit for you.
- [06:39]
B
And that really reminds me of, I remember working with somebody and being like so impressed by it, where she decided to do a squiggle and stay sideways move into working in digital when digital was kind of not, not where it is today, but this, so this probably what, 10, 11 years ago and but at the same time she could have Taken a more senior role, like more senior role, more pay, more status, much more ladder, like. And she sort of delayed that gratification because I think she could see her at the outcome that she was like, yeah, but this is a skill that's going to be really important to me. I'm going to be much more employable in my squiggly career if I get these skills. And this is one job in the scheme of lots and lots of jobs, I'm going to be working for a long time. And I just remember thinking that takes a lot of confidence to delay that gratification. But also then obviously I've seen how she's kind of squiggled after that and it's totally paid off. But like you say, probably in that moment she did the, she, she took the two marshmallow decision, right?
- [07:37]
A
Yes. Yeah. This is what we're going to talk about, everyone. So we thought, we thought that in work there are lots of 1 marshmallow and 2 marshmallow choices to be made.
- [07:48]
B
We've decided, We've decided.
- [07:50]
A
So whether it's about, I don't know how you, how you build relationships or how you show up in project meetings, all these different things, or the activities in our day to day life, there are one marshmallow decisions which are, this is going to feel great right now. And then there are two marshmallow decisions which is, but if I wait that the payoff is going to be better, worse. And it is, it is a choice as to what you do. And we're not going to say, you know, always choose two like it's a personal choice. Do you want the one marshmallow? It's like Sarah's little boy, Max is not bad because he chose the one marshmallow. It's just he potentially could have had two if he'd waited. And what we want to sort of present to you is some common, what we think are common, one marshmallow and two marshmallow decisions that you might have and help you to possibly be a bit more informed about the choice you're making rather than just defaulting to probably the one marshmallow decision. We just want to present the present the choice to you.
- [08:48]
B
I also think it's really helpful the more Helen and I dived into this, you can then start to apply this in a really personal way. And almost I think you could go through a week and be like, right today, how many one marshmallow decisions did I make? And how many two marshmallow decisions did I make? And I The more we started talking about this, the more I think you start to spot them. And I don't think you can. No one's perfect. I sometimes think we need the one marshmallow. I'm like, I actually, you know, just like from. I do think, I do think sometimes.
- [09:17]
A
Just give me the quick.
- [09:19]
B
I think sometimes it is okay to be, be like, you can't, you know, like, no one's perfect. I feel like if you're always doing too marshmallowing, you're too perfect. That's nobody. But I do think there are probably some things where you might be like, do you know what? I could, I could take myself away from the one marshmallow here. Because actually I want. The whole point here is you're not just doing the two marshmallow decision just, just for the sake of it. There should be a really motivating outcome that you want. Now for the kids, it's, they just want the two marshmallows. But for us at work, if you can connect the two marshmallows with something that matters to you and that you find motivating, then I think you stand more of a chance of being able to be like, well, I'm not going to do that thing, that thing right now.
- [10:01]
A
So shall we talk about the common situations that we think everyone can relate to? Because I think once you, once you've got your head around those, you can start to then think about, well, what other 1 marshmallow, 2 marshmallow decisions am I making in my day at work? And I think you can personalize this a little bit more. Where should we start?
- [10:18]
B
Let's start with email. I think that's the most obvious one versus two marshmallow opportunity probably for everybody.
- [10:25]
A
Okay, so on email, we think the one marshmallow decision leads to people instantly replying. So because, because the benefit that often you're getting when you get an email and then you instantly reply to it and you're in your inbox all day, is it. I think it feels good for lots of people to be responsive. You know, I'm, I'm the sort of person who does it and gets it done and therefore I answer my emails as soon as they come in and I'm responsive. And that's, you know, that's quite a one marshmallow decision because you're being very reactive and it feels really, really good in the moment. So. And I'm, I am probably the sort of person who does that quite a lot. I think I'm quite one marshmallow about My email.
- [11:02]
B
But the.
- [11:03]
A
The two marshmallow decision is, you know what, if you only checked your email twice a day, okay, so you just do it twice a day. So you're not doing the replying to everything, getting the instant buzz when you press send. You just check your emails twice a day. So that's a sort of delayed gratification. But the payoff, the two marshmallows that you get is you're likely to be more efficient and effective with the rest of the work that you do that day, because you're not task switching, you're not distracted, you're not kind of wasting your time constantly checking your emails. And, you know, you're not even prioritizing what you're applying to in that situation. So we think with email, you have a one marshmallow response straight away or a two marshmallow delay that gratification. And the payoff is efficiency and effectiveness of your work.
- [11:52]
B
I think. And you're gonna not like this. I think I'm like a one and a half marshmallow with email. So I knew. I was like, she's not gonna be upcoming.
- [12:00]
A
Of course she is. I'm like, it's really important that we create clarity for people on the podcast so that they make sense of it. And Sarah's like, yes, yes. But also, could we just.
- [12:08]
B
Well, the reason I say that is so I don't do what you do. I don't think I'm as. I also, I'm not naturally as responsive as you are, so I don't feel like I have to read and respond straight away. So I think I can. I can delay that gratification, but I think I. So I have like a flagging system. So I do read them a lot, though. So actually the idea of doing it twice daily, that actually does feel quite hard for me. So I'm like, oh, that's not what I do. I. I'm. I'm pretty on top of, like, what's coming in most, you know, when I'm not doing other things. But I never respond straight away. It's quite rare, actually, for me to respond in that moment.
- [12:40]
A
But you read straight away? Do you read straight?
- [12:42]
B
I read. I read straight away, but I don't respond straight.
- [12:45]
A
So what's your payoff? So if you're wash, you know, you're like one marshmallowing. You're reading when they come in. Why? What's your payoff for that?
- [12:52]
B
What, in the reading? In the moment? Yeah, yeah, just probably that. I feel like I still feel on Top of things. Okay, for me that's enough. I don't actually feel like I need to respond. And I suppose if it was super urgent, at least I've seen it.
- [13:06]
A
So you feel more in control, your warm marshmallows Control? Yeah. I mean, not that I was trying.
- [13:11]
B
To get you to say that, but.
- [13:12]
A
I thought that might. I thought that might be it.
- [13:15]
B
So I think I feel in control. Okay. The one marshmallow helps me to feel in control because two, I'm like, oh, I feel out of control.
- [13:21]
A
Well, well. So I wait because then you're not. You're never going to take the two marshmallows. So I'm trying to work out. So if your one marshmallow is. I read it as soon as it comes in because the payoff for me is I feel in control. So if I said to you, but Sarah, only check it twice, Only read twice a day. Don't waste your time reading those things. You know, stay focus on whatever else you're doing. Only read twice a day. What could your two marshmallow payoff be like? What's a bigger and better benefit for you of reading twice a day?
- [13:51]
B
Wouldn't be efficiency. I don't think I care enough yet about that. About that. It would need to be something to do with, like, the quality of the work. So if I felt that actually even the quality of my email responses, because I actually would care about those. So, like, the quality of, you know, like the responding to emails that are in a way that is clear and straightforward and, like, makes sense because I think that that matters to people and it matters to me. And if it meant that the quality of the work that I did the rest of the time was also higher, then that would always motivate me. So mine would be quality.
- [14:29]
A
So your one marshmallow is control in, like ever. Kind of sort of omnipresent control.
- [14:36]
B
Always in control.
- [14:37]
A
Yeah, always in control. Omnipresent control. I see it and I know it and I'm in control of it. Verses very appealing.
- [14:43]
B
That's why I have the marshmallow.
- [14:44]
A
It's like, I'll take that marshmallow every time. Two marshmallows is potentially increasing the quality of your work and your communications. And it's quite.
- [14:55]
B
Yeah.
- [14:55]
A
Quite appealing.
- [14:57]
B
It is. I still think it's hard. It's why all the kids take the one marshmallow. It's why I'm like, ah. Because the one marshmallow, I think you have to remind yourself, is still attractive and tastes good and is appealing so it is appealing to be in control. And also probably we're all more used to the one marshmallow. And so I think, you know, when we've talked before about, like, experimenting or like, trying stuff out, rather than probably doing this in a dramatic way, if I was going to do this and maybe I won't try it next week because I'm on holiday, so I was basically cheating. I could be like, I'll do it next week.
- [15:27]
A
I got 20 marshmallows.
- [15:30]
B
I think I could try this for. I think I would pick a day that I felt most confident about picking. So probably a Friday. So I think I get the least amount of emails on a Friday, and I think I would try it on a Friday and I'd be like, can I hold out for the two marshmallows on a Friday? Okay, I'll have a go. I pro. Like, I promise I will have a go. I feel like I'm at the kids show now. I promise, promise I will have a go and report back.
- [15:53]
A
Okay.
- [15:53]
B
Are you going to have a go? Yeah.
- [15:58]
A
I mean, I might have the one marshmallow on this. That was the least convincing of, okay.
- [16:02]
B
Maybe do another one. Because I feel like maybe that's the wrong way.
- [16:04]
A
We did say it's a choice, right? So all we're trying to do is present people with the benefits like, no, this might not be my one.
- [16:11]
B
You're like, I'm not gonna. Okay, let's do another one. Okay.
- [16:14]
A
I think this next one, this is more appealing. The two marshmallows might be more appealing to me here. Okay, so I'll get Sarah to explain it. But at a high level, this is about, like, managing what you say yes to. So we think that, particularly if you're a bit of a people pleaser, there are lots of situations at work where you might find yourself saying yes. So Sarah's going to talk through, like, the one marshmallow benefit of why we do that and a potential 2 marshmallow payoff of doing something different.
- [16:42]
B
And here I think I'm already a 2 marshmallower. So I think I'm okay here because it's also good. Right? It's good to know where you're already good at this. So the one marshmallow would be you say yes to everything and to everyone, perhaps if you particularly feel good at people pleasing. And those are people always, usually really nice people, in my experience. And you do that. You do that because you're helpful. And also it feels good. You're like, I asked someone in our team. Can you help me with this? They say yes and they just do it. But I've obviously derailed or distracted kind of whatever they were doing. I actually thought about this when I was like, oh, I actually did that yesterday. I asked the team for some help with something. And do you know what was interesting? There were two people that offered to help. And you know who was one of them? You.
- [17:27]
A
Me. Oh, yeah, of course it was.
- [17:30]
B
Yeah, two. Two people offered to help, and I was like. One of them was Helen, who probably is the busiest person in our team. But because you're really help and because you're really nice and. And because you're. Yes.
- [17:40]
A
I hate feeling stuck. I'm like, I can help you then.
- [17:43]
B
Actually, I came up. To be fair, though, I came with a video by myself in the end, and I was like, perfect. So I'm like, this is. So the one marshmallow payoff is I feel really helpful and I feel good and I feel useful. So they're all really good feelings. That's why we all want the one marshmallow. The delay. The two marshmallow option is to say no. And it doesn't mean saying, I don't think what we're saying here is like, say no all the time. It's saying no. And the outcome of the two marshmallows is so you can have more impact. I think probably very practically, you're saying no, so you can make more progress on your priorities. So often if I say to people in workshops like, oh, do you feel like your priorities kind of get overtaken by other people's priorities? Or, you know, you end up doing other work that you'd not anticipated. That's often a problem for people. Lots of people kind of recognize that. So I think, yeah, the payoff here is that you will make more progress on things that really matter to you in your job versus kind of. I don't think it's. I don't think the two marshmallows suddenly makes you an unhelpful person. I think it just makes you a more impactful person.
- [18:46]
A
Yes, I agree. And that is really appealing to me. And I've. I've reflected on this a little bit. I think I. I can do the two marshmallow one in this. In this situation, like the saying, say if you say yes a lot, which I do, because I love to help and I love to say yes, and I hate to say no, but I think I have got better at the saying no because I know that my payoff will be Better with people outside of Amazing if, which has been hard for me, you know, so lots of people have said, oh, can you, can you get involved in this thing? Or can you help us with this or can we do this? And I've had to say no because for Sarah and I, at the moment we're running our business and launching a new book. And that, that's like two really big things. And so I've had to say to some people, I'm really sorry, I can't get involved in that because I'm trying to make this the best book yet, the best book launch yet. And that's my, that's my two marshmallow. And I'm very attached to that. But I really struggle inside our business. So when anyone in Amazing if wants help, I will often say yes, of course, and I will drop the two marshmallow payoff. Like the project being even better or the quality of the thing that I'm working on, the impact of my work. I will just drop that instantly and just be like. And take the helpful feeling and take that. And I think I could get a bit better at the two marshmallow choice in the company with the people who work in the business.
- [20:05]
B
My reflection, that's useful because I think what you've then done is also thought about situations, you know, so you've identified specific situations where the two marshmallow versus the one marshmallow, like what's more likely where. So you're like, actually, you know, I'm all right at it now. I. And you know what that feels like because you've had the two marshmallows and you're like, okay, I know that that feels better.
- [20:23]
A
I feel better, actually. I feel good. You know, the two marshmallows, it's not just about my impact. It's about my. When I say no because I, I, it's, I don't maybe it's like a little bit self respect is a very big thing to say. But I feel like I feel a bit proud of myself. I'm like, oh, I felt like I was really clear about why I can't get involved and I was still nice. I still kind of. And I maybe helped them in some other way. I maybe gave them some other bit information. I kind of feel a bit like proud of myself. I think that's also a little bit, it's like a little mini marshmallow that I kind of get when I do that.
- [20:53]
B
Now we're getting into like those little tiny ones, the ones that you get hot chocolate yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, we've got the. We've come up with every version of a marshmallow. When do we get to like those giant ones?
- [21:02]
A
The giant ones. Oh my gosh.
- [21:03]
B
The giant ones. Like, what's the big giant marshmallow Pale?
- [21:06]
A
I don't know. Yeah.
- [21:06]
B
The other thing I was thinking there was you could still be helpful, but without it being used. So that's what you described a little bit there. So one of the things that you might want to do if you're thinking about the internal thing is part of your assumption is that help has to be you. And so one of the things that you could do to like someone in our team, because I think you'd find a very straight no hard because you are so naturally helpful, you might be like, ah, so I can't help you today on it because whatever you're doing. Cause I've got five workshops or whatever you've got on that day. But you know what, I actually think Sarah will be able to help you on that or I think Lucy might be able to help you. So someone else in our team who, you know, has got those skills or, or at least could. Could offer a bit of support because I reckon there's always someone somewhere who could help. So I think it's probably also a bit letting go of like this. This has to be me.
- [21:55]
A
I feel like I need on my desk, you know, like, like a. A drawing of two marshmallows with like the project I'm working on, you know, to keep it in mind.
- [22:02]
B
Yeah.
- [22:02]
A
Be like, okay, my two marshmallow thing this week is making this project brilliant. And then almost having it like a little poster. Not. I could feel like I could draw it and stick it on my laptop. And every time I go to type, yeah, sure. I was going to look at that post it note with the two marshmallows against the project and be like, no, no, no, that's the payoff. That's the thing that you really, really want to keep it in my mind.
- [22:23]
B
I guess even if you did it 50% of the time, you know, if you're like, well, if you're saying yes to everyone in the team 100% of the time, which I bet you're not far off. I bet, you know, like as in like percentage of times that you actually. I can't actually imagine you even doing it. So, you know, you wait till you.
- [22:38]
A
Hear my nose next week when you're on holiday and you won't actually.
- [22:40]
B
Yeah, when I'm on holiday and can't actually do it, but, like, even to me, and I'm like, I'm the person that you should be able to say no to. Like, you a. You just know me really, like, we have a different relationship. Right. Our relationships are all over the place, but I should be someone that you can be like, do you know what? There's something more important than helping Sarah with this question she's got. And you still say yes to me. So maybe it's about starting, you know, like saying no to the people that feel easiest to say no to. So I reckon I am easier for you to say no to than anyone else in the team or should be. And then you maybe go from there.
- [23:13]
A
Okay, maybe.
- [23:14]
B
Maybe I'll. Okay.
- [23:16]
A
I am quite motivated by that one. I'm much more motivated than that than checking my emails twice a day for that payout.
- [23:20]
B
I'm not actually solving my problems, but. No, it's all right. It's all right. I want you to have the two marshmallows. Should we talk about jobs and applying for jobs? I think this is a good one with the one versus two marshmallow. So maybe if I do the one marshmallow and then you do what the two looks like. So the one marshmallow version of applying for a job is wait to see a job advertised, apply for the job, and you either get it or you don't. It's very weight rather than create. It's very reactive. Also, you know, you feel good maybe about applying for a job, you'll just put my CV in, send my covering letter. I do think actually doing those things can be quite stressful. But, you know, like, you're sort of. You're responding to something and maybe you get an interview, maybe you don't, but you're like, I've just. I've just done it in that instant moment. I've got the. I've seen a job I want and I've applied for the job.
- [24:09]
A
And I'm sorry, I was pausing a little bit because I'm wondering whether I should tell you this story because you might panic, but I saw one today. I mean, I didn't think about applying for it. No, I did think. I kind of did think about for it. Not because. Right, because it was. Because it's a bit. This one, I was like, wow, that's so cool. So the job was an entrepreneur in residence and it was.
- [24:31]
B
I've seen jobs like this.
- [24:32]
A
Yes, it's really cool. And it wasn't even full time. It was. You could Just do like a couple of hours a month. And your job was to like inspire the people in, in the company. I was like, I know, yeah, that's so true. I didn't think that. I was just like, yes, let me, let me go do this.
- [24:48]
B
You know, I could be really good at that.
- [24:49]
A
I was like, maybe I could like have a little side project.
- [24:51]
B
You're paying someone for that?
- [24:53]
A
Yes. And I thought, this is really cool. An entrepreneur in residence for a couple.
- [24:57]
B
Of hours a month and just put the money into our.
- [24:59]
A
But then I looked at it a. I thought, sarah will kill me. And then I looked at you needed to know some like very specific technical things. I was like, it was like, yeah. I was like, I haven't, I haven't got that. But it did sound quite cool.
- [25:09]
B
You can't just like bring your energy. I think you were imagining you could just like walk around. I'm like, so energetic.
- [25:14]
A
Would you like just some ideas about careers? And they're like, no, because we need not really molecular. We need some molecular knowledge that you don't have. But anyway, that's, that's kind of the one marshmallow thing is you, you kind of see something, you know, like Sarah said, you're waiting, you see it and you just apply straight away without really thinking about it. Cause that's what feels good. The two marshmallow approach to applying for a job. So this is where, you know you're delaying the gratification you're not getting. The instant I've applied, I mean, I'm in the mix, is to build relationships around the roles that you are interested in. And so there could be more than one role. So I might be like, oh, who's been an entrepreneur in residence? I might go talk to some people around those particular roles. Or maybe there's a function you want to move into or, you know, whatever it is. But you, you might pick like two or three people who are connected in some way to those opportunities, and you are going to build relationships with them, understand what they do, understand how they, how they got there, understand, you know, what knowledge that they developed to be able to do those things. And the reason that you want to do this is because it is often conversations and connections that create career opportunities. And if you can build relationships around the roles that you're interested in, it is much more likely that the opportunities will come to you. And so the, the delayed gratification thing is here is that's going to take longer. Like building relationships around the roles that you are interested in is going to take a lot longer than just applying for a job that you've seen on LinkedIn today. But the payoff of doing this is that jobs come to you. And I've definitely seen this because I had this feedback from somebody in my career when I'd applied for a job and didn't get it. And I was really demotivated by it. And they said, you know, Helen, you want to put yourself in a position where the jobs come to you. And relationships are a massive way. Building your brand and building relationships are basically how that happens. And both of them take a bit of time, but if you can do it, it's a. I think that's a. I think that's the big marshmallow. You know, we were like, what's the big chunky one?
- [27:13]
B
What's the giant. The giant. Let's call it the giant.
- [27:15]
A
The giant marshmallow. The one that you put on the, you know, on the bonfire, like the really big ones that I think having jobs come to you is a giant marshmallow in your squiggly career.
- [27:27]
B
Yeah. And yeah, you're right, because I think also some of those curious career conversations won't go anywhere, but I go, but the worst case scenario is you've built a new relationship or a new connection, or sometimes you just never know when things are going to come back or pay off. Like, there are some people who've, like, got in touch with me who maybe I've not, like, seen for 10 years, but they'll be like, oh, but do you know what? I actually had this yesterday. Someone emailed us to say how much they love the Squiggly Careers in Action newsletter. Someone who I used to work with when I was at Barclay. So this is a really long time ago, like 15 years ago. And he was like, every time I read it, I just think I'm like, so, like, proud almost of, like, the business that you and Helen are building. And he's like, I just wanted to say that because I think every week, but I never. I wanted to tell you.
- [28:12]
A
What a nice thing to say also.
- [28:12]
B
Do you fancy having a coffee? And I was like, yeah, of course. Of course I do. I, like, I always loved spending time with this guy. He was, like a smart, sparky, strategic person I always learned a lot from. And I was like, yeah, great. And you're like, who knows where that will go or that will lead if you're going to leave me to be an entrepreneur in residence?
- [28:29]
A
I'm not, but I just thought it's cool.
- [28:32]
B
Like, oh, maybe I need to start having these chats quick. But you know when you're like, well, that would be so easy to not do. You know, like, there'd be no amazing if reason that's not on any to do list anywhere. That's not on any career list even anywhere. But those kind of people know. People I don't know see things I can't see. And I always want to have like, I want to pull interesting opportunities and possibilities for us for like career stuff.
- [28:58]
A
Yeah.
- [28:58]
B
Like to work with different people and for things that we could try out for the first time. And it's other people who make those happen. And that's why I will say yes to that because, I mean, I will enjoy it. So it's not that much of a hardship. But you know, it is also the one marshmallow thing would be, would be no, because I'm going to tick one more thing off my to do list. The two marshmallow thing is you're going to just go and have a conversation with someone and be really curious.
- [29:19]
A
And I guess, I guess that the conclusion is of the conversation about marshmallows is that I think our days and weeks are full of one marshmallow decisions that we often do without thinking because of habits that we've got into and how it makes us feel in the moment. And if you can start just thinking, but what, what, what would the two marshmallow payoff be here? And with that in mind, what choice do I want to make? And you still might choose one marshmallow, but at least you've done it with awareness and intention and you know, what you're trading off. I think maybe more, if we can add a bit more of that into our days and weeks, then we, I, I think ultimately you're gonna just make more choices about how you want to show up and what you want to do and not just operate on, you know, autopilot, which is a bit of the one marshmallow trap sometimes.
- [30:10]
B
Really good article to read on this. If you've read this, you're like, oh, I'm actually interested to kind of learn a bit more. So James Clear has got a really good article on delayed gratification and he's also got some really good like top tips in there. He links through to some really interesting kind of strategies. So we've not talked about all of those today, but I read it and I was like, oh, this is all really helpful. Quite a good guide for if you're setting up your own one versus two marshmallow decision making for your working week. So I'd recommend having a quick look at that. Obviously we'll put it in the show.
- [30:38]
A
Notes and you know where else we'll put it, Sarah? In the Squiggly Careers in Action newsletter which you're which which has been recommended by one of Sarah's friends.
- [30:47]
B
Purchase odams Highly recommended.
- [30:49]
A
Comes highly recommended. Just odd. The Squiggly Careers in Action newsletter. I am really proud of that because we didn't used to have a newsletter. We used to have this email we sent out to our brilliant community and we just decided, you know what, we're creating so much stuff, we want to put it together in a way that's useful. So if you do not subscribe to the Squiggly Careers in Action newsletter, it is something that we work really hard on each week to pull together the podcast and the shortcuts and the behind the scenes stuff and stories about what Sarah and I are doing and research and reports we've found. So if you are interested in the work that we are doing and you want to learn more, I would recommend signing up for it. Head to either the Show Notes or our website amazingif.com or if you still can't find the link to sign up, just email us helenand sarahquigglycraers.com and we will send it your way.
- [31:34]
B
But that's everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening. I don't know about you but I'm considering having a marshmallow. The advantages of having an 8 year old. We'll be back with you again soon. Bye for now.
- [31:45]
A
Bye everybody. Sam.