← Squiggly Careers
Loading summary
Transcript125 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hi, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast, and before you listen to today's episode, I just wanted to let you know about some news that Sarah and I are very excited about, and that is that our new book, Learn Like a Lobster is ready to pre order now. We really care about everybody learning and growing at work, but we know it is not easy to do, and so we're borrowing some brilliance from lobsters to help you to do it. The book takes three inspiring and surprising abilities of lobsters in terms of how they grow and applies it to how we can learn at work. So if you want some inspiration and you need some practical insights to support your learning, growth and development, this is the book for you. And if you pre order now and send your Pre order to helloearnlikealobster.com you can join the Lobster Library where we have a community of lobster learners ready for you to learn with some live sessions. And this will all happen before the book arrives. So pre order the book now, send it to hello@learnlikealobster.com and get started with your learning straight away. Now let's get onto today's episode. Hi, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast, and before you listen to today's episode, I wanted to let you know about some news that Sarah and I are very excited about, and that is that our new book, Learn Like a Lobster is now ready to pre order. We think that learning is so important to people succeeding in their squiggly career, but we recognize that it is not easy to do, and so we wanted to inspire people to look differently at learning. And we think that lobsters are the role model that we have been missing. We really, really appreciate it when people pre order our book. It means that our book gets momentum and also you get it first. But we know it's a while before that book arrives. And so anyone who pre orders we have got a special surprise. The surprise is the Learn Like a Lobster library and you will become a member of the library when you pre order the book. In the library, you will find three live learning sessions with Sarah and me, one in October, November and December. There's lots of tools for you to try out and there's a community to connect with. So please be please pre order Learn Like a Lobster Now. Support Squiggly Careers and support your own career too. If you send your pre order to hello@learnlikealobster.com, we'll be in touch with everything you need to know to Join the library. So pre order the book, send it to hello@learnlikealobster.com and we will be in touch with everything else. On to today's episode.
- [02:28]
B
Hi, I'm Sarah.
- [02:29]
A
And I'm Helen.
- [02:30]
B
And this is the Squiggly Careers podcast. Every week we borrow some brilliance from a person. A concept, a place, an object, even notoriously, one week with marshmallows, and another.
- [02:42]
A
Week we did a chair.
- [02:43]
B
We did do a chair. And what we try to do, as abstract as that might sound, is turn that curiosity into really useful actions for you and your squiggly career.
- [02:54]
A
And so today we're going to talk about the concept of mattering, and we're going to lean on a book that's come out quite recently by Zach Mercurio, a book I actually really enjoyed. But there has been another book on the same topic out recently. So clearly some mattering is becoming, I don't know, hopefully a slightly more common conversation. And we wanted to bring some of the insights to you in today's episode and help you think about what mattering might mean for you and your team if you are a leader or a manager. I think this is particularly important. Some of the ideas we're going to talk about, and then we're going to give you some specific actions for how you can increase mattering.
- [03:32]
B
Excellent.
- [03:32]
A
Good to go. Let's go then, shall we? Define mattering, first of all. So again, I've borrowed this from the book and it says that mattering is the experience of feeling significant to those around us, Sarah, for example, because we feel valued and know that we add value. And as I've kind of gone through this and Sarah and I have taught, I just keep coming back to that, like, do I feel valued and am I valuable? Like, if you want to.
- [04:00]
B
Valued and valuable.
- [04:01]
A
Yeah, if you want a shortcut to what, what mattering means, valued and valuable is probably like the. The thing to keep in your mind. And the reason it matters is, is because it enhances our self esteem. So when you feel like you matter, you believe you deserve to be there, to be in the team, to be on the project, to have the job.
- [04:25]
B
Kind of the opposite of imposter syndrome. Yeah, yeah.
- [04:27]
A
If imposter syndrome is I feel like I'm going to get found out, then self esteem is I feel like I have a right to be here. And so when you, when you get a sense of mattering, you feel that. Right. The other thing is it enhances self efficacy, which is a belief that you can do it. Not just that you have the right to be here, but a belief that you are going to do a good job. You've got the skills, you've got the knowledge, you are able to do a good job. It's those two things, self esteem and then self efficacy that you get when it feels like you matter.
- [04:59]
B
And I asked you this question and you had already preempted it. How is it different to belonging? Because I think it would be easy to mix those two up. I think they are quite different when you start to get into it in a bit more detail.
- [05:11]
A
So belonging, they are different. So belonging is where you feel like you're accepted in a group.
- [05:16]
B
So accept me.
- [05:17]
A
I do accept.
- [05:18]
B
I feel like you belong.
- [05:19]
A
You belong to me, but you feel.
- [05:21]
B
Like you know you're going to belong to you. That sounds like ownership. I own you. I know you can try.
- [05:31]
A
So if we take this idea of ownership out of. Feels sort of like you're in a group situation, let's say in a team, and you feel like you're, you're in, you're in the right place, you're with the right people. That's belonging. And it's definitely a nice thing to have. But mattering goes further because mattering is where you feel significant. So it's not just, I feel like this is a good group for me to be in. I feel like I fit in this group. It goes beyond that. It's, it's. And, and I make a difference. I make a difference to this group. I, I feel like by being here I add value, which goes back to the kind of, the mattering point there.
- [06:04]
B
I'm trying to work out whether, how interdependent the two things are. You know, can you belong without mattering? Can you matter without belonging? And I suspect those things can be true.
- [06:17]
A
Well, so if you think about mattering.
- [06:19]
B
Obviously, best case scenario, you have both of them.
- [06:21]
A
Yeah, ideally. So I guess the question would be, have you in your career had a moment where you felt significant to a team or a company, but you didn't feel like you belonged in it? Yeah, I think I have. Yeah.
- [06:36]
B
So I think those things, they, they don't. Then I suppose your, your ideal is that you have both of those things. That's probably how you have the most enjoyable week at work and, and have the most impact in your week at work. But I suppose one of those can be true when the other one is not true.
- [06:53]
A
I think I was actually thinking like, just to get, give a specific example. I think when I worked for bp I felt like I was doing a significant job, like I was making a difference and I was contributing, like, value. But I didn't always feel like I kind of fit in. Yeah, I think the profile of the people there was a little bit. A little bit different, maybe even at Capital One a little bit as well, like, because they kind of valued a particular intellect that wasn't mine. I never felt like I quite belonged because I didn't have that intellect, but I still felt like I was doing. I was adding value. Yeah, I think you're right.
- [07:30]
B
You just do.
- [07:31]
A
But the ideal, I guess, is you want both. I think that the dream jobs are where you feel like you belong, so you feel like you're fit in and you're accepted and you also feel valued and valuable. That's our kind of mattering sweet spot. And the payoff when you get to that sweet spot is the research shows that you get higher performance, you get higher kind of, well, being at work. People are happier in their job, so we all feel better when it feels like we matter at work. Work. And there are some research around this that highlights why this should be a priority conversation. Would you like to talk about the research?
- [08:07]
B
Well, I suppose some of it is kind of what happens when you don't have this, which I found interesting when Helen kind of shared this with me. So in the UK, 42% of employees say they feel undervalued at work. And that's this idea of I don't feel kind of valuable, so you should. I often think, well, what's the opposite of that? And that's probably feeling invisible. It's not. It doesn't make that much difference that I'm here. You know, like, almost like no one would miss me if I wasn't here. And you like feeling that way, like, you know, I don't make that much difference. I think that's a. Just not a very nice feeling to go to work with every day, but then also very hard to stay motivated. If you kind of have that sense of like, oh, I'm. I'm invisible. It's a bit irrelevant whether I'm kind of here or not here. No one's going to notice if I'm not around. Then you sort of go, well, it's very hard then to be. To be kind of really committed to what you're trying to do. And that 42%, I think, feels like a really high number. I think that is a number from 2025. So it's quite a recent number. So I think that's Quite a worrying stat for 10 people.
- [09:15]
A
Well, yeah, to make it really real. That means that four in 10 people listening to this podcast episode right now feel invisible at work, which means they feel like they don't matter.
- [09:26]
B
They say that's not true?
- [09:27]
A
Well, I mean, based on the research, no.
- [09:30]
B
But maybe because they listen to the Squiggly Critters podcast, they've like really thought about their career and they're in amazing roles with lots of relevant impact.
- [09:39]
A
I hope that is true as well. But I think if you are one.
- [09:42]
B
Of those people, because you're not alone.
- [09:44]
A
You're not. Yeah, I think that's really important. If you are one of the people, one of the, you know, 4 in 10 people that feels invisible at work right now, knowing that you're not alone, know that you know other people are feeling like this too. And know that hopefully by listening to this episode you'll be able to identify some different things you can do and also different things that you can support other people with as well so that you kind of create, create more connection. So we are going to just share a few reflections ourselves on some sort of coaching questions to start with as you're thinking about sort of reflections on mattering in your career so far. And then we're going to go through three areas that contribute towards mattering and that's where the ideas for action for you or for people that you work with will be. So the questions we thought are you sort of reflect on are when have you had a high mattering moment in your career and when have you had a low mattering moment in your career and what can you learn from the two? So can I ask you?
- [10:40]
B
Of course, of course. As I have thought about this before, before anyone thinks, wow, they can just think of these examples on the spot. And actually I think what's interesting about my example, it in the same company I went from a low mattering moment to a high mattering moment when I did a squiggle and stay move, when I kind of changed teams. And back to our reflection on the connection with belonging. I felt like I belonged in both teams. So I enjoyed being in both teams and I felt I could kind of be myself and I really enjoyed the people that I was working with. But I felt like I mattered a lot more in one role than in the other. And I think it goes back to that valued and valuable, I think in that first role, this is when I was working for Barclay, so for kind of a big bank, very easy, I think, in a big company to feel like, you don't matter. But actually that hasn't been my experience. I've had both experiences in big companies, but I think in that first role where I didn't feel like I mattered as much, I think it was a job that was maybe a bit of a nice to have job, if I'm kind of honest. It was very hard for me. I wasn't very senior and it was quite hierarchical for me to, like, really feel like anything that I did ever made a really big difference. I was also working on, like, innovation that took a long time. I couldn't see a lot of, you know, like, fruits of my labor. I could work hard and then, you know, like, you're working hard to do a PowerPoint. Like, I do think I had a job that was like, I'm working hard on PowerPoint slides and that is a bit demoralizing after a while. And so I was like, I, I probably felt a bit valued. Like, I, I worked for a great leader who I loved, so I felt a bit valued. I didn't feel very valuable. And that's probably why I wanted to squiggle and stay. I then moved into a job where it was a brand new job, brand new team, and suddenly I was using all my skills, all my strengths. I was making stuff happen, a very different kind of style of role, and really found my flow in that job. And I felt both valued and valuable. Like, I, I knew the work that I did, like, made a difference. I could, like, see it. It was almost like, well, if I didn't do it, no one else was, you know, was going to do it. It wasn't like anyone could do that job. And I was probably a very good fit for what that job kind of needed. So it was a really contrasting experience. And I do think it's always so interesting, isn't it, in, like a big company, I could have easily have left Barclays being like, oh, I'm not enjoying my role. But actually I'm really glad that I stayed because I moved to a job that then I both belonged in and had that kind of mattering. I think that I've had a few of those experiences in big companies and.
- [13:14]
A
You know, the mattering payoff is this kind of motivation, well, being at work and performance. In that second one where you felt a greater sense of mattering, would you say that you had higher levels of those three?
- [13:25]
B
Yeah, across all of those, I worked so hard because I loved it. Yeah, I was really driven. I worked harder, you know, discretionary effort. My discretionary effort in that second job was massive compared to that first job. And also it felt worth it. The discretionary effort felt worth it. And I was definitely performing better because I know that from, like, the feedback that I was getting. I think I, you know, I think I moved into a more senior role and like, so there was lots of kind of recognition of like, the impact that I was having. I was a way better employee in that second job than I was in that first job.
- [14:01]
A
It's interesting, my mindset is a slightly different, say my highest mattering moment or a very high one now. Now I say, no, no, it's very high mattering.
- [14:11]
B
But neither of us have actually chosen what we're doing today.
- [14:14]
A
That's true, but that's not because it doesn't. But a previous high mattering moment I would say was when I was at Virgin and I was launching Virgin Red. And it was a high mattering moment for me. I definitely felt valuable. I mean, I felt valued because there weren't a lot of us starting that business.
- [14:30]
B
No one other than me.
- [14:31]
A
So I felt like, we need Helen.
- [14:33]
B
If not me, then who?
- [14:34]
A
Exactly that. But I also felt valuable because I was bringing lots of like, energy and ideas to it. So. And that was definitely a high mattering moment for me. I don't think that business would have made as much momentum as it had or actually have looked like it did without me. And then my low mattering moment, I reflected and I was like, I was quite surprised by it, which was actually when I was at Microsoft and I really loved Microsoft. So I feel like I have to caveat this moment, but. And I was thinking, why did it feel like a low mattering moment? So why didn't I feel valued and, or valuable? And I think it was partly because of the team that I was in. There was quite a lot of politics around what teams held the most power in the business. And I'm not sure mine did. And so I felt like I was.
- [15:21]
B
In a team, hard to matter.
- [15:23]
A
Yeah, I felt like as hard as.
- [15:25]
B
I wanted to work and yeah, I wanted to matter.
- [15:28]
A
I wanted to matter and I wanted to do a good job. But I think the reality was at that time, the organizational dynamic was that my, the team in the area that I was working in, people were quite, I don't know, quite critical of and it was very hard to matter in a team that didn't feel like it was valued or valuable to the organization. That was, that was hard. And I kind of, I got to that reflection from these questions. I hadn't really Thought about it before.
- [15:54]
B
I've done a few of those jobs, though, you know, where in some companies there are those, like, nice to have jobs, maybe less so now that, you know, companies have to work really hard to be efficient and effective. But particularly, like, I think in big companies, you know, there are like the teams where that team really matters. So, you know, we're talking about this at an individual level.
- [16:14]
A
Right.
- [16:14]
B
But if you kind of go, oh, what teams matter most in that organization? You know, organizations have like a slant or like a DNA, and you're like, well, if it's a really operational company, the operational teams matter most. So naturally, if you're in those kind of roles, it's probably easier. Whereas I sometimes have done jobs that are new or a bit peripheral or a bit left field that I really wanted to do. But it, like you said, there's almost like, doesn't matter how hard you work or how good you are, they're never going to be quite as important as, like, some of the other things.
- [16:45]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [16:46]
B
And that's probably okay. It's just, just I actually do remember feeling that in a few roles and almost spotting it and thinking, okay, how can I sort of take what I really enjoy about doing this? But is there an area where I could have more of an impact in terms of kind of mattering and also knowing that your role is probably slightly more at risk? Because that has also definitely happened to me. But I think I knew, I always knew that and kind of made that choice being like, this is a riskier role because it clearly doesn't matter as much as some of those other ones. Even if I thought it should, I just know that it doesn't.
- [17:17]
A
I think it's just quite a useful reflection to think about kind of mattering and maybe use your past experience, think about what you're doing right now. So ask yourself those questions. It's good for your own insight. But what we wanted to get into is sort of the. The ingredients of mattering. It is really interesting and based on so Zach Mercury's work. In his book, he talks about three things that kind of add up to how much people feel like they matter. So the first one is noticing. So people feel like they are. They matter to a team and an organization when they feel noticed. And so that is not just someone who's ticking off, you know, tasks, but they feel like they are noticed as, like a human being. Like, you know, who I am, not just what I do. So that's the first thing people feel like, you know, their values are known and they're sort of recognized as an individual at work. So that's the first thing. Do people feel noticed? An individual level. The second thing is affirmed. So this is about. Do people feel like they're adding value? Do they feel like they are recognized and affirmed by other people as adding. As in value? And then the third one is, do people feel needed? So do they feel like they're. They. You know, if not me, then who?
- [18:34]
B
Yeah, it's that.
- [18:35]
A
It's that sense. So what we wanted to talk about was these three areas of kind of. Of being noticed and being affirmed and being needed and to share some sort of practical ideas for what this might look like at work. And these ideas, they're not actually from the book. They're kind of me and Sarah thinking.
- [18:53]
B
About out of Our Head.
- [18:54]
A
Yeah, out of our Head. Based on, like, I think the company that we run now, Amazing if. And the work that we've done. What do we think works for noticing, being affirmed and making people feel needed? Should we start with noticing?
- [19:08]
B
Yeah. Yep.
- [19:09]
A
And so the ideas here. We've actually done an episode on noticing where we talked about why we think this is a bit of a secret career skill. Yeah. Secret career skill that no one talks about. But if you want people to feel like they matter, average day or average week at work, we would say, start to notice how people are showing up in meetings. It's like a really simple way to make people feel seen and heard. And there are loads of things that you can look out for. Like, if you've really got, like a noticing filter on in a meeting, you might notice that someone's engagement in that meeting is slightly different to normal. And you might ask them a question.
- [19:46]
B
Like, so I had this happen to me. Did you?
- [19:49]
A
I did.
- [19:49]
B
So someone in our team who did a good job of noticing. So we had spent some time in meetings together in a week, and that's not unusual. We would normally spend time together. And she said to me, oh, I've noticed that meetings with you have felt a bit different this week. Now I was in a different place and in quite a different headspace to, like, a normal week. And so I was sort of half on holiday, like, my partner and my sister were on holiday, but I was sort of working where we were and I think basically I had probably shown up and she was like, oh, you've been very sort of. You've taken more of a coaching approach this week to our conversations than probably normally. Whereas normally I'm probably a bit more like, we've Got to get this action done. I think it's what we need to do. Probably more directive, so more directive versus coaching. And I was like, oh, she'd noticed that and also taken the time to tell me. So I felt very noticed and I think some of that had been effort. But I think if she hadn't told me that, that she'd noticed that, I probably wouldn't have had it as enough of a reflection to do anything differently because it did make me think. It's not like I think being directive is always wrong, but I thought, well, I don't only want to take a coaching approach when I happen to half be on holiday, you know, because I'm probably more. I'm more relaxed, I'm very calm. I hadn't got as much going on that week. And so it did make me then think, oh, that that is a way that I can be valuable. You know, back to like, am I valued and valuable? She really valued that coaching approach for me that week. She was essentially saying in a much nicer way, I found that really useful and perhaps sometimes more useful than you just being really directive, you know, as in she felt like she'd learned more from me. She'd felt very supportive. She was kind of very positive about the impact it had had on her. And so it did make me think, okay, I don't want to rely on that only happening very infrequently. How can I take more of a coaching approach if that is valuable and also something I enjoy doing? What would that look like more frequently? So I thought I was good noticing.
- [21:46]
A
It's very good noticing. Also quite a nice link, I think, to last week's week's episode on resting, which is maybe the better that you rest, the more in that mode you can be.
- [21:54]
B
Yes, yeah, versus we need to get these things done now.
- [21:57]
A
It needs to get done. Also, I think that you, when you shared that example, the fact that someone said, I've noticed that. I think that is the easiest way to take this action. Like think I just say, oh, I've noticed that you were trying to say something in the meeting and you didn't quite get you initial thought. Would you like to share it? Or I've noticed that you're kind of really emotive about that point. Like I. I'm always listening when people say, I absolutely love that. Or particularly I listen for the hate sometimes when I'm like having career conversations with people and I'm just like listening and listening and they'll say, I really hated that job and I'm like, that's in.
- [22:35]
B
That's an unusual level of a statement.
- [22:37]
A
It's a strong statement, like people saying hate at work. So I would be like, oh, I noticed that you used the word hate when you talked about dot, dot, dot. I'd love to hear a little bit more about that. But literally just use the statement. I've noticed that. And people feel seen and heard more than if you're not saying that. And that's what this point is really all about. Like, people feel seen and heard at work.
- [23:00]
B
Tell me we're not going to have to do some positive affirmations now.
- [23:05]
A
So the affirmation's about mantras at work? No, no, it's okay.
- [23:08]
B
Okay, good.
- [23:09]
A
So the affirmation really is about recognizing what people do well, but in a meaningful way. And there's a really interesting point in the book about this sort of difference between recognition and affirmation. Like, there are different things. We do something in amazing if. Which we call squiggly shoutouts, which are where we will. We might do this in a meeting or we might do it on teams, Microsoft Teams, which call it squiggly shout out. And it is where we are intentionally calling out what someone has done well. But we thought we would talk about squiggly shout outs and how they might differ from just recognition to affirmation. And it's. And we're trying to get to this level of affirmation in order for it to feel like someone matters. So, like, level one squiggly shout out is just recognition, which might sound like.
- [24:09]
B
Helen, like, great job this week. I know you've worked really hard.
- [24:12]
A
Okay, great, great. I might. I might feel praised by that. But it's not enough to make someone feel like they matter. So let's go to a kind of like a level two squiggly shout out. What would that sound like?
- [24:27]
B
Helen, thanks for all your hard work on presentations for our partners this week. I thought you showed great initiative on pulling together all the data and the information we need needed. Like, thanks for that.
- [24:39]
A
Okay, so that. That feels better to me. Like, I listen to that. I think you. It feels a bit more personal. It feels, you know, a bit more detailed. So I definitely feel better. So it's a level two squiggly shout out. And level three is the level of affirmation, which is. Is what matters most to people when they feel like they matter. So if you were doing a level three squiggly shout out, what would that sound like?
- [25:01]
B
So that would be Helen, like, thanks for all your hard work this week. One of the things that makes you uniquely useful at amazingith is your ability to anticipate what our learning partners need before they even know it for themselves. And that is such a brilliant skill. And I really see that kind of show up across everything that you do, and particularly this week in that presentation you sent to our partner, you sent them some things they hadn't asked for, asked for, but I know they're going.
- [25:27]
A
To find really helpful now. I feel like, amazing. I'm like, I did a really good job. I'm really useful, I'm really valuable. And I think the, the statement that I would copy from what Sarah said there is uniquely useful. Like, uniquely useful because this, this idea of someone feeling affirmed is where they feel like they have made like a unique and valuable contribution. We talked before about the brilliant because I thought what you did was really brilliant because could be another way that you into that or sometimes I was talked about, I might say to our team, oh, it's, it's a real Sarah super strength. When you, the point of affirmation is, it's, it's something that that individual has done that other people hadn't done or couldn't do. That is sort of like a unique contribution from them. That's the level you're trying to get at. So it's not just, well done, good job. We've got to go a little bit further if we want people to feel, you know, really affirmed, appreciated and feel like their contribution matters.
- [26:27]
B
And I don't think you have to go overboard. Right. It would be a bit overkill if you were like all the time trying to get into this, like, deep level of affirmation. But I think it is just spotting opportunities for when that is, that is relevant. Sometimes I think a squiggly shout out that is just like, that was brilliant because it's fine. But I do think there are moments where people do work where you think, oh, it's because of who you are and what makes you valuable. That's why that has been so good. And that's. You don't want to miss those moments to tell people that because I think, you know, remembering most people are their own worst critics. Like when I ask people that in workshops, they're always like, yeah, I think so many people give themselves a hard time and it's really easy to assume that people know that they matter because you're like, well, obviously because they're amazing at data analysis and like, look at the good impact that have you might just be thinking that, but I think just don't underestimate the importance of, like, saying it as well.
- [27:23]
A
I think, again, if you want to make this really easy on the point I'm noticing, I think it's. I've noticed that on. On this point with affirmation, I'd either go with it's uniquely useful as a way into it, or I do someone's strengths, because that feels like a very normal composite. You've got a real super strength. Or I really see this strength when you. Because I think strengths feel personal, they feel really ownable for somebody. So just an easy way into. If you've never thought about these conversations before, that might be a quick way to remember it.
- [27:52]
B
I needed you. Going to tell me why you need me?
- [27:55]
A
Would you like to? Yeah. You are a bit needy sometimes.
- [27:57]
B
I know I am, but that's not the point.
- [28:00]
A
The point around needed people, people want to feel like they are needed. And it was interesting when we were reflecting on. Well, how do you. How do you say that someone's needed at work? The opposite to this is a bit of a Watch out. Because I think we might say this without meaning to make someone feel not needed. But, you know, when people go on holiday or they're. I don't know, they're going on, they can't make a meeting. Let's say they can't make a meeting because they're in another meeting or they're on holiday or they've gone on maternity leave and you want to take the pressure off them. That's the intent. So you say to them, oh, don't worry, don't worry, Sarah. Like, you go away, have a break, we'll be absolutely fine without you. You don't need to worry about anything. That is like a red flag to someone feeling like they are replaceable. And there's a. Quite a nice quote in the book, actually, which says, like, if. If people feel like they are replaceable, they will act like they are replaceable. Well, I don't matter what you're saying.
- [28:50]
B
Well, I don't matter.
- [28:50]
A
What's the point? Anyway?
- [28:51]
B
I definitely say that to people because I'm from a really positive place of trying to get people to take a break.
- [28:57]
A
Yeah.
- [28:57]
B
Or to. I think I'm doing it to try and reassure someone, like, of course it's going to be okay that you're on holiday because, you know, we will do the things that need to make happen and, like, that's okay. Or, or especially if someone is, you know, in that more Vulnerable moment of you going on paternity or paternity leave, being like, oh, but don't worry, you know, we were. We were. We were okay before, and we'll just. We'll be brilliant when you get back. I have definitely said those things, but.
- [29:19]
A
You know, when you put this filter on it, you're like, oh, gosh, that. That probably doesn't feel very nice. That probably feels like, oh, I'm not that significant.
- [29:26]
B
They don't.
- [29:26]
A
They don't really need me after all. They're just gonna, you know, go back to the way it was before me. Yeah, it's quite hard.
- [29:33]
B
What do you say instead? Because you do still want people to. Because I do think the intent is genuinely positive. Like, I do want people to take a break. So is it more about saying, well, obviously we're really going to miss you. It makes a difference that you're not here.
- [29:45]
A
Yeah. Yes. So I think what you might do that I think there's like a before and an after the moment that that person isn't in, that you can still make them feel needed. So I think you can say, oh, Sarah, I really want you to have a good break. The thing that is really useful is, like the questions that you ask in a meeting or the way you kind of keep us focused. Could you maybe have a look over this before you go? So I make sure that you are. Your input is in the meeting. I was actually in a board meeting this week where the chair at the meeting, someone couldn't come. And on multiple times, the chair said, I just want to add in this perspective from the person that couldn't come nice. And they would have known that they were still valuable in that meeting even when they couldn't have been in. So I think you can do that beforehand. Like, don't worry, like, go have your break, enjoy yourself. I would still really like your contribution. Is there any chance you could give me some questions so I can bring that in?
- [30:35]
B
Yeah.
- [30:36]
A
Or after the meeting, I think you could say to somebody, hope you had a great holiday. I really want to run by a couple of things that happened where you were when you were off, because I really need your input on this. I think, you know, it would be a real miss if we didn't bring you into it. So I think you can kind of COVID the moment that someone might be missing and make still make them feel like they are needed and valuable to it.
- [31:00]
B
I was just thinking, you know, there's also probably a point if I was being critical of myself is like, if you are a bit needy, you know, like also you have to sometimes like let things go a bit, you know, like the other side of. The other side of this is like, I'm just imagining. I'm like, oh God, it sounds like quite hard work for you to have to tell me before I go for a break. And then when I come back, like, oh, Sarah, you know, you do matter. I'm like, oh, I forgot. There's also a bit of like, oh, Sarah, like get over yourself. Like, like obviously you make a difference. So maybe if you, you know, like, because I, I was saying to you beforehand, the reason I say this is I, I said, oh, sometimes I haven't always felt that needed in amazing if. And you were like shocked. You were like, what do you mean? And I was saying, well, you know, sometimes I definitely have had a holiday or perhaps been away ill or not been around. And you probably do say to me like, don't worry, I've got it. And then I probably do come back and be like, well, she has sort of got it. So you don't feel is needed, but I am somebody who does. I probably quite like to feel needed, so that's probably harder for me. But I'm like, do I really need you to then start like telling me you matter? I'm like, probably not. It's probably a bit of like just recognition though, you know, like based on your own. I think I got used to over lots of years, you know, when you work in bigger companies and you get. There's more like recognition. It's very, it's quite ladder like thinking some of those sorts of things. And I think I've had to just get used to my own like self worth a bit and like needing other people, not, not needing other people to tell me that I am what I am. Valued. I'm valuable.
- [32:36]
A
Yeah. I mean, I didn't want to get into a meta conversation about need, but I do wonder whether, saying like what I. What I need and value because you might think, oh, I'm not valuable because Helen's, I don't know, put Some think on LinkedIn without approving it with me or whatever and I'm gonna be like, well, yeah, but that's not what I need from. What I really need and value from you.
- [32:56]
B
Yeah.
- [32:57]
A
Is our connections and our conversations and our ideas and our debate and that. And you're like, oh, you know, if you had that conversation with people in your team about what I really need and value from you is I wonder how often those conversations happen. Like what I need from you. And what I value from you is I think maybe you'd get to like a deeper level of understanding from people. I don't use that word very often.
- [33:21]
B
You know, if you were saying the hard thing about. Which is a phrase that we sometimes use, which is quite good just to like stress test ideas. I think. And I think we should all be open to saying the hard thing. You know, you said about jobs, if they feel. If you feel. If jobs feel replaceable, you feel like you can just be replaced. But I guess there is also a bit of a reality check of like, like most people and jobs are replaceable. Like I remember having that advice from people. Like, remember like no one person, you know, no one person runs a company. No one. Everyone is replaceable to like an extent. So I do think there's perhaps also a bit of a point of like you, you do matter. I was thinking about what's that phrase? Enmeshment. So I'm like, oh, there's an interesting like gray line here, I think between going. You definitely want to feel like you matter, valued and valuable. But what you don't want it to turn into is enmeshment, which is when all of your self worth and your self efficacy is all tied up in the. You matter so much in the job that you do that then if something changes that is outside of your control, it's like a real. It's a real shock to you. And I think I have seen that.
- [34:36]
A
Happen where it goes too far.
- [34:38]
B
Yeah. Where I think people would say they belonged. The mattering was so high, they felt valued and valuable, but then they sort of forgot that sense of perspective. And it did. It kind of merged into enmeshment. And then actually, you know, things change. Even though their jobs might have felt irreplaceable, then they turned out, actually, we don't need that team anymore.
- [35:00]
A
I mean, maybe this is a new thing, but I'm seeing a spectrum. Of course you are seeing a spectrum.
- [35:04]
B
It's either a spectrum or a matrix.
- [35:06]
A
Spectrum or a matrix. This is the way our brain works. But you've got like meaningless mattering and enmeshment.
- [35:13]
B
Yeah.
- [35:13]
A
And meaningless is not good because it will feel completely. And they will, you know, act like that way mattering is the aim because that's where they get motivation, wellbeing and performance. But if it goes too far, you get enmeshment, which is where people are basically not very resilient to change because they feel like a change to the company is a change to them. And the high lows of work affect them. So it is interesting. I mean, the work hasn't gone that.
- [35:37]
B
Far, but yet that's my brain.
- [35:38]
A
It's just Sarah's brain taking it to kind of the next level of thought. But if we bring it back to the middle ground of mattering and maybe we just kind of summarize what we've talked about on the podcast. So mattering is where you feel valued and valuable and the benefits when we get this right at an individual level are I am more motivated, my well being is likely to be in a better place, and I'm likely to perform at a higher level. It is perhaps more important now than it has ever been because of that. That stat that we shared, About 4 in 10 people feel invisible at work. So this does feel like an important thing to reflect on and support people with. And if you want to make people matter more, there are three things that we want to focus on. So the first is do people feel like they are being noticed so they feel like they're seen and heard? The second is do people feel like they're being affirmed so they know that they are uniquely useful? And then a third area that contributes to mattering is do people feel needed? Which is, you know, I think just having that conversation about like what I value and need from you is. And maybe the more that we do that, the more that people know what that need looks like rather than kind of assuming that they are or aren't needed at work.
- [36:54]
B
Quite, quite deep reflection.
- [36:55]
A
Yes, I feel like we went quite.
- [36:56]
B
Deep, but I mean it should, it's.
- [36:58]
A
Quite, quite a deep and important topic. But yeah, I think if you can have this conversation as a team, maybe it's not so much a team conversation. I feel like maybe this one's maybe more a peer to peer. Like, do you, do you feel like you're mattering at work on these three areas? What's working?
- [37:10]
B
Well, I think if you've got a good relationship with your manager, I can imagine it in a, in a, you know, like career conversation, it feels like it could, could stray into that sort of territory. Could be quite good with a mentor, you know, like if you feel like you don't matter. So if you were. Because that stat is high. Right. So the opposite to kind of what I just said is like, well, if, if you're one of the four in 10, you. That's not very sustaining, you don't want to stay in that position for too long and maybe your manager or your team might be part of that. So they might not be the right people to have a conversation with. So then I think I would be thinking about like, who else, given I don't feel valued or valuable or kind of one of those isn't in the right place. I think I'd be looking for some mentoring, some career conversations with people either in other parts of my organization, if that's big enough to do that, or kind of outside of my organization. Because, you know, sometimes I think when I have been in those positions, talking to some other people does remind you that like where I am now is not where I have to be forever. And it can give you those glimmers of, okay, this is not great at the moment, but it is possible to be in a role where I will matter more.
- [38:15]
A
I think you could also ask for some strengths based feedback. So when do you see me at my best? Because if people maybe you're not proactively getting some of that affirmation and so what you might need to do is just, you know, ask for some of it.
- [38:27]
B
What skills are most valuable? What skills do you see that are most valuable in our team or in our organization? Because that's also quite interesting because I might say, well, these are the strengths that I want to stand out. These are the strengths that I want to be known for. And that's fine, that's up to you to make those choices and to make those strengths stronger. But you might then also say to me, and some of the strengths I see in you or the skills that you've got that are particularly valuable are X, Y, Z. Some of those might be the same, but some of them might be different. And that's quite useful. Just data for my development, I think, I think I find that. I think some of the things that you would say to me are useful about me are not the things that I want to be known for. But that's also okay because it would help me to know. Oh, but it does. That does. I'm needed. Yeah, help me with the old needed.
- [39:09]
A
I am having a positive impact. So yeah, if you're one of the four in ten, maybe just, you know what makes me unique, be useful to the team. When do you see me my best? What's the value that I bring? Go and get some of that if it's not naturally coming to you so that you can get some of the insight that can help you feel like you matter if you're not getting that data at the moment.
- [39:26]
B
But that's everything for this week. We hope you found the episode useful. Any feedback we'd love you to email us. We're Helen and Sarah squigglycareers.com or you can find an amazingif.com which is our website, all of our previous skill sprints, loads of free tools and actions, and all the old podcast episodes. About 500 or so that you can catch up on if you're looking for some extra career inspiration.
- [39:49]
A
And don't forget that we now do two episodes every week. So we have our Longer Borrowed Brilliance episodes on a Tuesday, which is an episode like this one, and then on a Thursday, we have Squiggly Shortcuts. They're just five minutes long. They focus on a very specific topic. We cram in lots of ideas for action. So if you subscribe to Squiggly Careers, wherever you listen, it will make sure that you don't miss out on those episodes.
- [40:08]
B
That's everything for this week. We'll see you again soon. Bye for now.
- [40:11]
A
Bye, everyone.