← Squiggly Careers
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, it's Helen from the Squiggly Careers Podcast. And before you listen to today's episode, I just wanted to let you know about some news that Sarah and I are very excited about, and that is that our new book, Learn Like a Lobster, is ready to pre order now. We really care about everybody learning and growing at work, but we know it is not easy to do, and so we're borrowing some brilliance from lobsters to help you to do it. The book takes three inspiring and surprising abilities of lobsters in terms of how they grow and applies it to how we can learn at work. So if you want some inspiration and you need some practical insights to support your learning, growth and development, this is the book for you. And if you pre order now and send your Pre order to helloearnlikealobster.com you can join the Lobster Library where we have a community of lobster learners ready for you to learn with some live sessions. And this will all happen before the book arrives. So pre order the book now, send it to hello@learnlikealobster.com and get started with your learning straight away. Now let's get onto today's episode. Today, Sarah, we are talking about the psychology of seats. How do you want to come across in whatever situation you're in? I want to be collaborative. I want to be a leader. I want to be creative. Choose your seating with that intention in mind. If there's a meeting that you want to have more influence in, get there early so you can choose where you sit.
- [01:28]
B
I definitely do this. You know, I wasn't like the first in the room. I actually didn't want to be at the end towards the head of the table. I didn't want to be the other end either. I think I felt more ready to contribute, like more active, more in it.
- [01:38]
A
There are two sides of the seat. So there is where are you choosing to sit, and then I think the other side of the seat is you looking at where other people are choosing to sit and how that might influence how you engage them.
- [01:55]
B
Hi, I'm Sarah. And I'm Helen and this is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. Every week we borrow some brilliance from a person, a place, an object. It goes in all sorts of different directions and we turn that curiosity into some actions that we hope are then really useful to help all of us succeed in a Squiggly career. And Helen is in charge of this week's Borrow Brilliance and she is going to have to work hard to convince me how we make this useful teen. So let's see. Let's give her that challenge and see how we get on. Helen, what are we going to be talking about?
- [02:31]
A
I've got a prop, which is only going to be relevant if you are watching this. I can't believe you've got a prop on YouTube. Of course I've got a prop. Because today, Sarah, we are talking about the psychology of seats. I wish everyone that was listening could see this now.
- [02:43]
B
So you've got a tiny Sylvanian family seat.
- [02:46]
A
Yeah, I bought this on purpose. It also doubles up as a phone stand, so it's not a waste of money, Sarah. Well, there you go.
- [02:54]
B
I actually thought you were joking when you said about this as a topic originally.
- [02:57]
A
Oh, oh. Sarah thought I was joking about the psychology of seats. Well, look, anybody who wants to see my little seat, I'm going to put it as a social picture to promote this podcast, so feel free to check that out. To Sarah's point, are you joking that we're going to talk about seats? When we decided to change the podcast, we did say it could be about somewhere. We did, or something. And I've just, I've just gone with that brief and I will tell you where this idea came from. I was speaking at an event a couple of weeks ago and I got there early and I was chatting to one of the other speakers and most people were outside, like, most of, like the attendees, they're all outside grabbing coffee. But a couple of people had come into the room and had taken their seat and I was like, oh, that's quite interesting. Like, maybe it's because they've got some emails and the person I was talking to, his name is Rick. He's a really, really, really nice guy, runs a good company that called Learning Cog, who do all the, like, the color assessments and things. And he said, oh, there's something really interesting about seat psychology. Like, a lot of people will sit down at an event because it's, it's safe, it's safe for them because actually going and talking to strangers is quite scary. But taking your seat is a way that they feel in control. And he also said, oh, this research on where people sit is also an insight into kind of what matters to them. So, for example, like, people might sit in a corner because they get more chance to observe, or they might sit at the front because they are particularly passionate or they want to engage. And it just got me thinking about the psychology of seating and how this doesn't just apply to big events. But actually we are on seats quite.
- [04:34]
B
A lot at work.
- [04:36]
A
And what if where we sit and how we sit has a bigger impact than we might always think about? That is the question that I went off on. Okay, what are your initial thoughts?
- [04:49]
B
Sorry, croaky. Even thinking about it. So I did think, oh, actually, if I go into a big event, I can. I can connect with that. Like, the thought. I would definitely be thoughtful and intentional about where I wanted to sit. And sometimes, you know, almost to make myself be really present and in it, I will go and sit, like, center, front, middle, you know, when you're like, I am, like you said, I really want to be engaged in this. I sort of don't want to give myself any excuses to not be or like, you know, you don't want to get distracted by your phone or whatever. So I almost feel like that's the, you know, where you sat at school type thing was like, that's me being like, good. I'm, like, going to be good and I'm going to learn, and that's what I'm here for. I am definitely also an escape seater. So I did read. I would say I did read. I did read your notes. And, you know, like, sitting at the side where you can escape, whether that's like, escape because you need to leave, or just the ability to escape, should I choose, I think I find that quite reassuring. You know, if I'm a bit unsure or maybe I do just genuinely have to have to leave, I almost think I'm one or the other. I'm either like, so in it, or I think I'm an escape seater. So I was like, okay. I mean, I did then struggle with going, how is that then useful for me? Am I quickly, Bear with me.
- [06:16]
A
Well, that's a fair question. Bear with me. Before I go into it, I would say my two. I don't know if it's caveats, but my two things to be aware of are I think there are both practical and psychological implications of where you sit. So practically, if there's only one seat in the room and that's where you're going to sit, right? Or if there may be, I've forgotten my glasses and so I need to sit at the front so I can see, like that's a practical consideration. I'm not. I'm not just putting the practical things to one side and I'm just focusing on what I have learned about the psychology of seats. That's my first thing. And my second thing is I think there are. You know, you talk about two signs, two sides of a coin. I think there are two sides of the seat. So there is. Where are you choosing to sit and how might that influence your impact or engagement? And then I think the other side of the seat is you looking at where other people are choosing to sit and how that might influence how you engage them. So I think you can look at this from either just yourself or from other people. And so I have chosen three different seating situations. We'll call it that. That. I was just going to share some insights that I. I've got. One of them is kind of events. I think we've talked about a few of those already.
- [07:31]
B
The second one is face to face.
- [07:32]
A
Like in person meetings at work, which I think, you know, still happen, still have kind of lots of levels going back into the office. So I think still important to talk about that. And then I've also thought about virtual meetings. So how your seating influences your impact and how you can play with some of the psychology of seating. So we'll do that. And then I've got three. How do we take that slightly random chat about where you sit and turn it into something that is hopefully a little bit useful for you and the people you work with too? So we'll do the three. Three seating situations and then three potential seating. So what's. That's my plan. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I think we've, like, talked about the large events one a little bit in the kind of setup really. But it is useful to. If you're thinking about how engaged you want to be in a large event, like a conference. I suppose this is for a lot of people. Just be aware of. Are you kind of sitting down for safety? So I was actually. I know this. And I was at an event this week and I thought I was. I just walked into the room and I walked straight into, like the drinks bit. And so it was. It was a lot of people. It was quite noisy. I thought, oh, deep breath. I'm gonna have to do the hi, I'm Helen thing. And I'm an extrovert. And so I did think about I might just go into the room early and sit down. And I was like, oh, no, that's a seating for safety thing. You're doing that because you show you that's okay sometimes.
- [09:02]
B
Well, it is.
- [09:02]
A
But I think just be aware that if my. If the purpose of me being there was to meet other people and build my. My network and kind of be present. I mean, also I. I wasn't staying for the end, but I had to get home because I had like some like things to do child wise.
- [09:18]
B
Okay.
- [09:18]
A
And so I thought this is my only moment. So if I opt out of this moment and go sit on a safe seat. Miss the moment. I'd miss the moment. But I could feel my. I guess, I guess because I've been doing the research for this episode, I was just a bit more self aware of it and I was like, oh, that's, that's what you're doing. You're going in there. Because that is a safer thing to do than actually talk to some people that you might not know and kind of make, make that like extra bit of effort in this thinking about.
- [09:45]
B
I did something really similar and I could not wait to sit down. But I turned up to this, I turned up to this event which I was hosting a table and it was so, so noisy. You know, like the bit outside with like the drinks but. And it was really, really noisy. So I could barely hear what anyone was saying. So a. I find that quite rude. Like, you know, I can't, I can't connect with somebody properly because I can't hear it makes sound like a right granny. But I just, I just, and I find it really overwhelming anyway. I'm like, I'm overwhelmed and I can't hear and I feel bad because I don't want to not be able to hear what people are saying properly. And I was literally just like, as soon as they were starting, you know, to try and prompt people to sit down, I was like, literally first in line. I was like to everyone who was on my table, I was like, come on everyone, let's all, let's, let's all go and sit down. I was like, the relief I felt once I could sit down, I was like, oh God, that's better. Because I think the other thing around one you just described is, which I think people sometimes underestimate, is just how many people turn up to those things already knowing people. And so I think if you are the person, and I knew some people at that thing, but also I got a group of people that I didn't know very well. I think if you do turn up and you're by yourself and you don't know people, it's really hard in that moment, isn't it? To be like, oh, I'm just gonna go and sit with loads of people I don't know, I'm just gonna talk to people I don't know. So you can really see why people are like, actually that's so hard to do. I'd be better off just going to Sit down. And then maybe I'll kind of chat to people then. But yeah, it really reminded me I was literally counting down the seconds. Please let me sit down. Any seat will do in this scenario. Any seat will do.
- [11:17]
A
But maybe it's. I'm trying to do some more alliteration. You could have some. It's a seat signal or you can have some seat sympathy when you see someone who's done that. I mean, obviously if someone's on their phone and, oh, they're on there, they're doing. They might be trying to get some work done. That could be a, you know, back to. There are practical considerations why someone might have gone in early, they've got an email to do. But for a lot of people it might be because they feel quite awkward and this. They're. And they've made the effort to be there, but it doesn't feel particularly comfortable. But you could potentially put them at ease by saying, oh, hi, do you mind if I sit with you?
- [11:46]
B
I would actually do that.
- [11:47]
A
And then you could. Then you suddenly strike up a conversation with somebody and then that's where I think once you understand this, you have a bit more empathy for other people who might. Might be doing that because it's not, you know, it's quite, quite a difficult thing for them to do. Similarly, the watch out for like, as we talked, like the exit seats. So the people who are quite close to the back who are trying to make an easy escape, again, there could be a practical reason because they do need to leave early or it could be because they're feeling uncomfortable. Also, apparently, like, people sit in packs, like trying to look out if you're. Because it's safety. So they'll sit in a pack of people that they might know when you go to an event. So finding ways, if you're the person who's like organizing the event or talking, finding ways to sort of like separate the pack can be quite powerful because packs can make people who've come on their own feel more left out.
- [12:36]
B
Yeah.
- [12:36]
A
So you know, when you do turn to someone you've not talked to before or we're going to move you around, that kind of thing can get away from packs feeling quite intimidating for people who are on their own.
- [12:46]
B
Yeah, that's interesting because we. We have an event coming up in about a month's time where quite a few people will come with somebody they know from their organization. So there'll be lots of duos, actually probably not loads more than that. So pairs rather than packs. But we will also have probably 50. So 50% of people will probably come in pairs. 50% of people will come by themselves and probably won't know anyone else in the room. Maybe one person. And so actually we might want to think a bit about. Because if you're going as a pair, you're going to sit as a pair, right? Who doesn't do that? But then we might just want to think about, like, do we split up those pairs at some point? Or how do we get people talking to, like, all of those other people who are there? You know, when you're in an event.
- [13:29]
A
If it's a large event, often you've got a lot of seats, right? And so it's not that easy for people to move around. So even just getting them to kind of move, turn to the seat and find them, or not to. Oh, I'm coming on to standing up.
- [13:40]
B
I'm coming on to standing up.
- [13:42]
A
Hold that thought, hold that thought. Okay, so that's just some insights about the psychology of seating in large events, which I thought was quite interesting in face to face meetings. So imagine we're in the office, we're having. I don't know, we're having a team meeting or a project meeting. And some interesting insights here. So there are power seats, particularly on, like, rectangular tables. So the end seat, head of the table. The head of the table seat is a power seat. So it's quite interesting to see who automatically sits in that seat. Or if you want to have the power, are you, are you gonna go practically sit in the seat? I know, but it's. That is a power seat where you have a lot of influence in the conversation. What makes it even more interesting is it's. If it's even more powerful if that end of the head of the table is against a wall. So imagine you've got. You're in a room. Imagine it's a rectangular table with one end of the table is up against a solid wall, the other one is near a door. So every time someone comes in, they're like, just don't sit next to the door. So because that's quite distracting, you lose your power because people are kind of coming in and out and they're going to the bath. The most powerful position is the end of the table against a wall, which I thought was interesting to see who automatically takes that position. Like, it's a bit of a signal perhaps of what they're trying to do. But also, you could, you, you could if you want to have, like, you know, if you want to have that presence and power. You could intentionally. Here's your meeting. You could, you could potentially choose, choose that seat. I remember once when I was on a course and they said, you know, if there is a meeting that you want to have more influence in, get there early so you can choose where you sit. And you're choosing it with that, that like position in mind. If you're late, you lose choice and that means that you may have less influence of something that you're trying to do.
- [15:33]
B
Oh, that's interesting.
- [15:36]
A
Round tables. Take that away. So if you, if you, let's say you want to have like a really collaborative conversation with your team where you want to make sure everybody feels involved and equal, if you have got a choice in your office of what room you have that conversation in, choose a room with a round table.
- [15:57]
B
Because let's see how many round tables. I know, I don't reckon there are that many. I'm just thinking about all the companies we spend time with.
- [16:04]
A
Well, we could hire rooms. So we, we, you know, we. There's a site we use sometimes called Hubble where you can literally choose the room that you want to do a meeting in, like for lots of different sites. So we could, we hire different rooms so we could choose it with that in mind. At Microsoft there would have been some rooms which, my last kind of corporate place, there would have been some rooms with round tables.
- [16:24]
B
I don't think I may.
- [16:25]
A
It's just interesting. You know, often we just book a room and don't even think about it and sit without even thinking about it actually. Because your seat influences your impact in a conversation and it impacts the type of discussion that can happen. We might just want to be a bit more conscious about that where we can make that choice. And also, even if you, if you want to think about your impact. So if you want, if you want to lead a discussion, get the head of the table seat. If you want to be a collaborator in a conversation, you want to sit middle of a table. So if you can't get a round table, but you want to play that mediator collaborator role, you want to sit in the middle of, of that table because that then gives you more options to bring people in. So again, it's thinking, what impact do I want and where, how does that influence where I choose to sit?
- [17:14]
B
That's where I think I choose to sit. I was just thinking about your last board. The board meeting I was in for. Not for our company, for a non executive role that I have. And I was thinking, okay, that was recent enough that I can remember where I sat and I just about chose my seat, you know, it wasn't like the first in the room, but early enough I had some choice and the chair did sit at the head of the head of the table, the chief exec next, next door. And I sat in the middle. I was like, I don't, I don't want to be at the end. You know, I didn't want to be. I actually didn't want to be at the end towards the head of the table. I didn't want to be the other end either. Quite a big table. I was like, oh, so I'm quite small, you know, Like, I was like, well, I think, I think I just felt. I think I'd feel really far away, not as involved in the conversation. I think there is when you start to think about the issue, like there's a bit about how it just makes you feel. So I think by me sitting in the middle of that tape, I think I felt more ready to contribute, like more active, more in it in terms of conversation. Also my first board meeting, so I was like, right, you know, really want to be present and I want to make sure I'm really listening. I want to be able to see everybody. And I can. Yeah. You know, rather than. Sometimes you're like looking down and you can't see the stable. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I can really. I can see everybody.
- [18:27]
A
Really.
- [18:27]
B
I've got good, like visibility. So I think it probably did give me more confidence in that meeting. I then wonder whether if I'm thinking about other meetings I'm in where I'm really confident. I know if I'm really well already and I'm not. I'm not as worried about my impact. Maybe I've already established my impact. I'm always. I said, I don't think I mind as much.
- [18:46]
A
Maybe you have to be intentional.
- [18:47]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [18:48]
A
Three more things on in person meetings. Like you were like, is there enough to talk about?
- [18:52]
B
There's loads, yeah.
- [18:53]
A
Turns out there is. Flanker seats. I like this.
- [18:55]
B
Right, so let's say this starts to feel like an army thing.
- [18:59]
A
It does. Maybe it's maybe the wrong language, but basically sitting next to. If there is a person who is like leading the meeting and they're at the head of the table, then actually being next to them can automatically influence your impact in the meeting. So you might want to do that. You borrow a bit from them. So you choose the seat that is next to that person who's kind of in, in the power in the power seat. And the other thing, this is my, my random story is the height of your seat. I think I talked about this before, but it's because I have a very embarrassing memory of it, which is I went on a leadership course where I was with a, in a, in a like, negotiation, role play with about eight other people. And it was filmed. And afterwards they played the film back and asked to kind of critique everyone's contribution. And what we realized when we played it back was they had intentionally lowered one of the seats so like seven of the seats were PI. Normal pie. And one of the seats that I happened to sit on was per annoy low. And you could really see that I, it was hard for me to engage in the conversation because I was, I was literally having to lean forward and everybody else had not the upper hand, but the upper seat. And so it was harder for me. So I just think about not just where you're sitting, but also like the height of your seat can impact how you kind of come across in meetings. And you mentioned standing meetings. So no seat meetings have been shown, first of all to be shorter because people don't like standings for as long. People are more, there's more energy in those meetings and people are a bit more open. So if you want an ideasy, you know, in terms of, if you want a meeting where people are ideasy, perhaps not doing it in the table with the, you know, the room with the rectangular table where you always sit and do your team meeting, but actually say, we're going to have a no seat meeting and it's going to last for 20 minutes because we want to talk about some new ideas for the podcast that, that has an impact on people's psychology, how they show up in the meeting.
- [20:58]
B
Yeah, I think no seat meetings are a good idea, actually. Even I don't know you're gonna talk about virtually next, But I'm like, you could still do that virtually. So I was just thinking, oh, a lot of our meetings are virtual with our team, but actually there's no reason why you don't stand up. You just don't. Because you just don't. Like, nobody does. But I think about Cath Bishop, friend of the podcast, author of the Long Win. If you ever talk to Cath, she's usually standing up. She just changes, you know, she has a standing up desk, I think, or one of those ones that moves. But I, you can just tell. I can just tell that she's standing up and I'm like, oh, so she's like an Olympian. And like fit and really thinks about her energy and yeah, she has a real kind of quiet, calm credibility, Kath does. And she's obviously made a very conscious choice that because she, like us, would do quite a lot of delivery, like learning delivery. She obviously does all of that standing up and sometimes she'll then have meetings standing up as well. So I'm like, well, she's obviously really thought about that because that doesn't just happen, right? You have to have the right desk and all of that kind of stuff. But there's nothing stopping you doing it as like a one off thing, you.
- [22:03]
A
Know, it's just like an experiment.
- [22:04]
B
Couldn't you do the podcast?
- [22:07]
A
Oh my gosh. Maybe that could be an experiment, a stand up.
- [22:11]
B
I can't imagine you wanting to do that. Would you want to do that?
- [22:13]
A
I've got, you know what, I've got a stand up desk that I only sit down at.
- [22:18]
B
I knew that actually. I knew you've got like one. You were like, I'm gonna get one. I'm like, but you never start out.
- [22:23]
A
But I do move it up and down while I'm sitting because that links to the next point, which is a seating segue. I mean, I'm loving this. I'm loving this too much. As long as you segue is virtual meetings. So the point here is how does your seat impact how you come across in virtual meetings? What's the potential relationship there between the seat and psychology in virtual meetings? So it's really your positioning on a screen. So when I was looking at this, it said that kind of where your face and head is on a screen in a virtual meeting can impact somebody else's perception of you. So the, the ideal is for sort of for visibility and credibility and connection. The ideal is probably, unsurprisingly, you're kind of in, you're in the middle. People can see your full face, but they can also see your shoulders and a little bit of your chest because it makes you look a bit more open. So, you know, if you're just seeing a bit of my face, bit too intense, I'm, I'm doing things presumably a bit remote. I'm demonstrating some of these things that you'd have to watch on YouTube to be able to see. But like for everyone that's listening, ideal is you're in, you're in shot in the camera because your seat's an appropriate height where chest, body, face, if you are too high. So if I'm up here, it is actually supposed to be quite intimidating because it looks like I'm looking down at everybody else. So if your head is too high, it looks like you're looking down.
- [23:54]
B
I don't know if I find it intimidating. You just look like you haven't got a forehead. It's just confusing. I'm just like, why can I only see her eyes?
- [24:04]
A
If you want to laugh at me and Sarah's confused face while you're dealing with everybody, but also if you are. If you are down. So if I'm sitting down low and I'm looking up at you, it looks less confident. So what you kind of want to do. And you can do this either ways, right? You can either do it by the height of your seat or what seat you're choosing, or you. It could be about the height of your desk, really. But I think it's just interesting that the way you are sitting in a virtual meeting because all someone is really seeing is you. It's almost got more influence in. In because it's just me on camera that you are looking at, where. How you're sitting and therefore how what people are seeing almost influences their perception of you and your engagement more. And I've been watching, I've been secretly observing, which is on one of my actions that I'm coming to come on to in a minute. I've been looking like our team a little bit and about how they've been sitting on screens. They don't know. They don't need to know. I've been screenshotting secretly every ticks.
- [25:02]
B
I was going to talk about inclusion in a moment, but now, like, maybe not.
- [25:05]
A
Well, I haven't shared my feedback on it yet, but I was thinking, oh, how does that, that way that they are sitting influence their impact in this conversation? And I think, obviously, please don't go critique other people, everybody. I was just doing it because I was reflecting on the podcast. I think critique yourself is the point. So they were. So my insights, and I've turned those insights into three seats.
- [25:25]
B
So what's.
- [25:26]
A
Would you like me to share these?
- [25:28]
B
Let's do it.
- [25:29]
A
Okay. So the first seat. So what from all the things that we just chatted about with seats, is I think you have to reflect on how do you want to come across in whatever situation you're in. So whether that is an event, an in person meeting, a virtual meeting, I think you want to be intentional about how you want to come across. So I want to be collaborative, I want to be a leader, I want to be creative, whatever that is, and then choose your seating with that Intention in mind, so creative standing up, collaborative, head to the middle, leading look for the power seat. That kind of a thing like make conscious choices depending on the impact you want to have where, where that is possible. I would also say, given that I think a lot of people are spending time on virtual meetings. Sort out your setup for that. Because I think a lot of people just join and we're in. You're in lots of meetings. We're not even thinking about it, but all it takes is like maybe 10 seconds, you know, like on. I was on teams earlier and before I joined the meeting, I could see my camera. I was going to join a meeting with lots of other people and I just sorted my setup. I could see myself and I. With this in mind, I just sort of moved myself and got ready and then I joined. So I joined with the impact that I wanted to have rather than in a room where I'm then, you know, you're kind of faffing about where other people can see. So I think maybe join slowly so that you have kind of more impact when you arrive and kind of sort your seating out, particularly with virtual meetings. And my third one is to observe other people which might come onto your point on inclusion. Not in a nasty way, but I just think it's interesting to see.
- [27:09]
B
It's when you say not in a nasty way that I'm like, well, that's a worry.
- [27:12]
A
And it's not to, it's just to kind of go, oh, it's interesting that that person's chosen that seat in a meeting. You know, like in an in person meeting. Okay, let's see what happens next. Are they, are they intentionally doing that because they really want to lead this conversation or like we said, with empathy. Look at where someone has chosen to sit. Maybe in a room. If they've gone to for a safe seat early, maybe you could offer them support by being a friendly person who sits next to them. So I think when you become a little bit more conscious that it might not just be a practical consideration for where people sit you, you know, you just have a little bit more insight and you can choose what you want to do with that for yourself and for the people that you work with.
- [27:52]
B
Yeah, it's interesting. I think there are a few other thoughts. A loads of people, you can't see where they sit, so people turn their cameras off. So I was thinking about, I'm doing lots of sessions this week for a very big technology company. And what was interesting this morning, something was weird about the setup of the meeting. So every other day it's, I see myself big and then I see what I'm drawing for the workshop big. But for some reason today I could see every. I could see everyone. Nothing had changed, but I could see everyone. And so 50% of people have their cameras off. So I can't see anything. I get no data. But then suddenly I could see 50% of people as I was delivering the learning, which normally you can't really, because everybody's like so tiny and there are so many people. And actually I could. I can remember from this morning, I could see people nodding along. I could see people taking notes. I could actually see people really engaged. So the people who obviously have chosen to have their camera on are probably maybe the most likely to be engaged because they're happy to have their camera. Camera on. Right. And I could, I can see that they're kind of all in it, though. I also had to try hard not to get distracted by, you know, if you see someone frowning. Like, I frown when I concentrate, but I'm like, but are they frowning because they don't understand or. I saw like one person really lean back, you know, like, really relax. Like, basically relax me back.
- [29:09]
A
And I was like a comfy seat.
- [29:10]
B
But that hasn't how they go.
- [29:13]
A
Yeah.
- [29:13]
B
Or, you know, like you can. So I think you have to be a bit careful not to, like, second guess. But I was like, oh, it's interesting. The whole. With so many virtual meetings, you often can't see how people are showing up. And I think that is an interesting choice, like being on camera, not on camera, like, what feels right for you. And I was thinking there is sort of a, like an inclusion point that is. Is obviously seats. Seats of kind of much, much smaller than like inclusion. But I was thinking about, you know, the idea of almost not letting power dynamics kind of get in the way of everyone being able to contribute. So, you know, your thing of, like, you can move people, you can disrupt power dynamics, right, by moving people around by actually saying, oh, Sarah, do you want to. Do you want to go here? Because actually you're. You're leading the meeting. So you could create the space and give people the prompt to like, sit in the middle of the room to be like, oh, no, you don't sit at the end. If you're leading something, don't sit at the end. Like, encourage people to kind of to. To take that accountability and to know that it's okay. And it doesn't always have to be like the most senior person or just the most confident person, I think sometimes. And I was thinking about all those situations you described. I was like, I feel like there's quite a big link with confidence. You know, if I'm confident going into a room with people, I don't know if I'm confident on a virtual meeting or if I'm not. Maybe people don't turn the camera on sometimes when they're learning because they're like, oh, I don't want Sarah to pick on me because what if I don't know the right answer? Or if Sarah sees me, does that mean she might ask me something? Now, we don't do that. We never put anyone on the spot. But you might. You might be kind of thinking those things. So I was like, oh, that's. That's also quite interesting. Like, I would never want somebody to feel like, oh, that they. That they couldn't kind of take the space that they. That they need as part of the work, the work that they do. And I think we could probably like, all help each other with those. And my one other thing is, I think this is a really good. Watch out for yourself is not to always default to sitting in the same place.
- [31:11]
A
Yes.
- [31:12]
B
So I definitely do this. So, you know, like, there's a. Prefer, you know, if you have the same meetings every week or you have some of the same meetings every week and you sort of go, that's my spot. I like sitting there. And that would. I'd definitely be like that because I'd be like, oh, I like being able to see a window. Like, I would always want to be able to see a window. Or I like being able to see what's going on around. Cause I like the sensing. I like to be able to see the full thing. I don't like the idea of things being behind me that I can't see. So I would definitely have some of the same preferences. But I reckon, you know, almost that, like, don't always sit in the same place. So, like, for example, for that next board meeting, I'm already thinking, I think I would have gone to exactly the same seat. And now I'm going to be like, no, I'm going to. I think I might try and do the seat next to the top of the table just to try that one. I don't like that word. So I'm trying to avoid that. But I was like, yeah, I think I might try that and just be like, how does that feel? Because that's quite. That feels a bit more intimidating. So it's quite nice. Just like, I think you can just try some stuff out here and have.
- [32:09]
A
A bit of fun. I think that is a brilliant build on, like, never, not never seating, sitting in the same seat twice, because you probably will. But just that idea of don't default to the same seat because that might. That might sort of predetermine how you're going to engage.
- [32:25]
B
Don't default to just going to sit down because you don't know. Like, I would definitely do that sometimes. Like, don't default to, I'm going to go in the room early or I'm going to sit in the escape seat or whatever. When you are up for it, when you've got the energy, when you've got the capacity, like, just try and challenge yourself to be like, I'm not going to default today to what I would normally do. And, like, what does that look like for you? Maybe that is saying hello to somebody. Maybe that's just sitting. What would happen, you know, whenever Helen and I do events, you know, no one ever sits in the front row, but that's still.
- [32:53]
A
What if you did? Yeah, like, what if you did.
- [32:56]
B
What if you went and sat in the front row? I actually am a bit more like that because I like to be able to see again because I think if I'm in a big room and I'm. Because I'm small, I'm like, if I can't see, then I'm definitely not engaged. So I actually wouldn't.
- [33:07]
A
We do it for different reasons. I'm like, it's because I want content. I'm like, if I sit on the front seat, then no one's head's going to get in the way of the photo that I'm trying to take.
- [33:13]
B
Oh, right. Yeah. No, I don't think about that.
- [33:15]
A
Very different reasons.
- [33:15]
B
I just, like, want to learn the thing.
- [33:17]
A
I would love to get people's feedback on this episode because it is a little bit random and it may be too random or it might be just the little bit of curiosity that you were looking for. Yeah, a little bit of light relief. Because let us know, because we could. We, you know, we could take this podcast wherever we want, but we want to make sure it is useful and energizing for you because that is two of our company values. So email us. We are helenand sarahquigglycareers.com and we will summarize some of those insights in the pod sheet, which you can get from our website, amazingif.com and I would just.
- [33:48]
B
Like to give a little shout out to the lady that emailed me about how to make a poached egg. I it was with some brilliant photos and I was like, this is the best email I've ever had since I started work. Also gave some very good feedback on the podcast and how useful it was. But then she was like, sarah, here's how to make one. I would say my current progress, everybody, for those people who care, drama merging is everybody. My poaching egg. I've gone back to scrambled eggs. So Helen, Helen was like, why are you not just doing scrambled eggs? So I was like, I don't know. I'll. I'll do that first. I'm working my way up in terms of beginner work, but I do appreciate that email. We like the random emails. We like the useful emails.
- [34:26]
A
Yeah, they make our week and everyone who's sending us lobster related pictures as well. So keep coming, keep coming. We got one of those reviews photos. All welcomed, but thank you for listening today and we'll be back with you again with another Borrowed Balloons episode next week.
- [34:40]
B
Bye for now. Sam.