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A
This is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. And one quick thing. This is our 500th episode today. Thank you.
B
Effective authenticity is where you project a version of yourself that resonates with others whilst maintaining a semblance of genuineness. Trust is more important than authenticity. Whether they're being their authentic self as.
C
A person flying the plane, you know, they're bringing themselves to work.
B
That is less important than trust.
C
Do you trust them to fly the plane?
A
Are you part of an emotionally intelligent team? Interesting thinking about the we rather than just the I. Am I emotionally intelligent? Are we emotionally intelligent?
B
You need to understand, like, how does this team work?
A
It's almost kind of keep questioning yourself. What ideas do the team need from me at the moment? Because the last thing they need is more ideas. You know, sometimes more ideas are actually annoying and it's overwhelming. What we need is decisions, not ideas. Hi, I'm Sarah.
B
And I'm Helen.
A
And this is the Squiggly Careers Podcast. Each week we borrow some brilliance and turn that curiosity into actions in a way that we hope will help all of us succeed in our Squiggly careers.
B
And in today's episode, we are going to be tackling the topic, it's hard to say, of authenticity, which it turns out, also might be harder than you might think to do. And I was intrigued by somebody whose work we followed for ages. I think we're just really big fans of how he thinks, and that is Dr. Thomas Chamorro, PMUSIC, who has a new book all about basically, like, not being yourself, this mantra of just bring your whole self to work. And what does he call it, like.
C
The authenticity cult or something like that.
B
He's basically like, very, very anti this idea of everyone should just be themselves at work. So we thought today that we would talk about that a little bit, maybe share some of his insights and our own opinions on his advice. And then, as ever, because we're trying to turn our curiosity into actions for you at work, we've got three things that you can do with his insights and advice so that you can put them into action to support your squiggly career. That is our plan.
A
And one quick thing. This is our 500th episode today, which, yeah, I mean, sure, there's not loads to say, is there?
C
Do you know what I normally do? The milestones. And then you normally just sort of flatten them.
A
That was my version of doing a milestone.
C
I thought you've said it in flat.
A
It's because she cares. I don't think you think I. Well, do, actually. Do you know what I do care about? I do think doing something consistently for that long every week is something to be really proud of.
B
I agree.
A
And so that, that I think, for my congratulations, Sarah. Personal recognition of myself. I think I care and I, you know, if I think about where we started 500 episodes ago, it does.
C
You know, we've in a little studio.
A
Come a long way.
C
Do you remember that little black studio, went down the stairs and we would sit there really rigid with our microphones, being really formal. That didn't last very long. I know. I feel like our standards might have dropped. I think we had quite high standards.
A
Well, I mean, there was. There was a moment where I wonder if you can ever tell, you know, like, when we would have been recording the podcast and both of us would have had really young children and having, like, no sleep. I wonder how. Whether we were. This is amazing because it's not that, you know, we're getting a kind of break from something else that's harder or whether at times we just sound broken.
C
You know, if you listen, you'd be like, oh, they're really annoyed with each other there. Or clearly someone's interrupted that one.
A
Or, I mean, something a bit stressful's.
C
Happening, so I can't listen back.
A
They're traumatizing. Imagine if you've listened. Do you reckon anyone has listened to all 500 episodes?
B
Apparently I have been on, like, sessions, like with the POD plus crew before, and some people have listened to every.
A
Every single one. That's a lot of Helen and Sarah in your ear. That is a lot of Sarah. Thank you. If that is you, I am very grateful that you choose to spend your time with us. And if you're new and you're like, wow, 500, that's really daunting. Don't. Don't worry. Just go back to the ones that you need.
C
Search for what you need.
B
Go on our website, amazing.com, put in your topic and it will tell you.
C
The most relevant podcast.
B
Or Sarah and I often use an app called Overcast, which often has quite.
C
A good search function.
B
And we'll often just put.
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For our own. For our own podcast, we'll just put in.
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Because it's got good search.
C
Because it's got good search and we'll find it.
A
I was just thinking you'll be able to tell me maybe I bring too much authenticity to the podcast, like my actual personality about celebrating milestones. Maybe now you're going to tell me I've been. That's not the right thing to do. What do you think?
B
Well, why don't I tell you a little bit more about authenticity with a very, I think, like I say, I think Tomas has a very critical lens on it. So we didn't have to agree with it.
C
Right. We're just going to, we're just going to learn from it.
B
So I've got a few notes, my notes from, from, from reading and reflecting. And I think what we're really looking here is how to use and not use authenticity as a strategy for career success. So that was like my frame when I was absorbing this. I was like, okay, what can I take from this that can help me to use authenticity and what I'm learning to support my career success? So a couple of, let's do a couple of points to begin with. What he says that we are really aiming for is something called like effective authenticity. And I'll. You give, I'll talk about the difference between effective and ineffective. So let's start with effective. He says effective authenticity is where you project a version of yourself that resonates with others whilst maintaining a semblance of genuineness and semblance.
A
Yes.
B
Yeah, this is, this is a really key point because he says it's about achieving a harmony between self expression. So Helen, as I want to show up in the world and social connection, the Helen that the world wants to see. And his point is, if we go around every day just going, well, I'm just going to show up as who I want to be in the world. You know, that's me being authentic. I'm just going to do all the things that I want to do in the way I want to do them. Then actually what that can cause is friction and disconnection from the people that you are working with because largely the people that are most successful. So you go back to the filter of how does authenticity support queer success? Largely, the people that are most successful in their careers have two dimensions that are consistent. One is agreeableness. So they get on with people. People want to spend time with them and kindness. So they are kind of empathetic and understanding. And so this idea that you just, you just show up as you kind of want to be, regardless of what people want to see. Like you're just like, take me as.
A
I suppose that's quite selfish, right? Potentially, yes. You could say it's not very thoughtful, it's not very empathetic to almost be just like, oh, I'm just going to be me. Don't care, don't care how Other people feel. Think, like, what's useful for them, just kind of completely unfiltered. If you wanted to kind of think of it like that, you could be like, okay, well, that might be. It's quite egotistical, I guess, doing that. Yeah.
B
You know, when you start looking at it like that, you're like, oh, sometimes we say, oh, just, you know, be yourself at work. But actually, if you look at it with a critical lens, I think you do get to, oh, but what if. What if that isn't relevant to these people? Or what if that isn't helpful to what we're trying to do? Then actually, like you say, it's kind of getting in the way of the work which you want to do. And he has this point I thought it was quite interesting about. He says that actually trust is more important than authenticity.
C
And he talked about, like a pilot, for example. He was like you.
B
Whether they're being their authentic self as.
C
As a person flying the plane, you know, they're bringing themselves to work.
B
That is less important than trust.
C
Do you trust them to fly the plane? So actually he was saying that, you.
B
Know, the trust that we place in people to do the job is actually more important to the relationship than, you know, am I just being fully. Helen?
A
Yes. Though I don't think I also care if a pilot is kind or agreeable, but I do care if they can fly the plane, you know, like, back to your. Like your. And I'm like, oh. As an example, I find that one trickier because of the job that they do. One of the other kind of not. It's not a counterpoint, but it's an interesting one to think about is, I suppose if you go too far the other way and you feel like you're wearing a mask, you know, pretending to be someone you're not at work. Because if you're feeling like I have to be really agreeable, it's all about other people. If you kind of go that way, that is then really tiring. That is when people are very unhappy. And I have definitely kind of flirted with that at certain points in my career being, like, trying to show up in a way, because I thought it was like, the right way to show up. And that's hard to do well. And I think also not that helpful. And I wonder if you are naturally. I mean, this. This bit isn't me. But if you are naturally a people pleaser and you're very selfless, almost your description as well, you could. You could end up being kind of very other Orientated. Yeah. And then not confident enough in yourself. It's a tightrope. It's a tightrope tool.
B
That's what I thought. You see this, like projecting a version of yourself that resonates with others. So you're being kind of quite adaptable whilst maintaining a semblance of genuineness. It is like, that is quite a hard. And I was, I wrote down as I was reading, I was like, what. What are the themes that are coming through so clearly? Authenticity. But the underpinning themes are trust. Not an easy topic. Transparency. Not easy. And it talks about emotional intelligence quite a lot. Like people who do this. Well, because you are good at understanding others and how you show up in relation to them. I actually haven't read something for a while where our emotional intelligence has been.
C
So kind of, you know, it was.
B
Quite fashionable for a while, wasn't it? But it really comes back to it in this topic.
A
I read something on that last week on are you part of an emotionally intelligent team? So, you know, to your point, I'd not read anything on it for a while and then it just popped up. I'll have to find the lady's name who's the researcher. It's kind of. It's a well researched piece of work. I think it's an academic lady who's done it. And it was on Harvard Business Review because I've shared it with a few people. So we'll put the link to that in the. In the show notes. But I was like, oh, interesting thinking about the we rather than just the I. Am I emotionally intelligent? Are we emotionally intelligent? I was like, oh, that's interesting. So what actions could we take on this? Because this feels really hard. Right?
B
Yeah, I know. So I did, I did get to sort of three. Three areas that I think actually you could take sort of the insights, which are quite, quite complicated. I think it's quite a few different things that are feeding into this into something that's useful. So the first action that I think is. Is important if you're going to start thinking about what does it mean for me to be authentic in a way that supports my squiggly career success. I think you have to know what makes you you. But I think you have to look at that from two perspectives. You @ your best and you at your worst. And I think the way to do this, I and Sarah, we often talk about, you know, values are what makes you you. So I think you can start with your values and understanding of what your values are. And for anybody that sprinted with us. We recommended a tool called values.instu. as a very good starting place to understand your or your values if you've not used that tool. So you start with what your values are and then what you want to think about is for each of those values what do they look like when I'm at my best and what do they look like when I'm at my worst. And if you are super self aware you might be able to do that. You could go and get some feedback if you're feeling brave or what I did is I went to AI and I said these are my values.
C
This is what I do.
B
What is likely to be the impact of them showing up at their best and at their worst? Would you.
A
You could just ask me. I would like doing that for you.
B
I know but you were busy and I wasn't feeling like a brutal.
A
Because Sarah brings too much of herself to work.
C
Let's see. Let's see what you what you think about these. So I let's see if you agree.
B
So freedom is one of my values. I'll just pick out a couple of them. I wrote down my definition. I actually just voice noted it to chat GPT to make it nice.
A
I don't use voice noting as much.
B
I found it so helpful.
A
Maybe I'm going to experiment with that because I love her voice note but I just don't. I forget. I think to use GPT in that.
B
Way it's so helpful. I was like my value is freedom. It means being unconstrained about my choices.
A
And it's got it all just easier than freedom.
C
Yeah.
B
How might it work for you? Gives you the courage to build and scale your own business rather than being trapped by corporate norms apparently. How it might work against you it risk of spreading yourself and the company too thin by chasing too many opportunities at once. Want to do too much energy?
C
I'm just gonna say all of them.
B
Energy works for you because it inspires your team, clients and audience. Works against you. Pace and positivity might overwhelm or unintentionally silence quieter team members. Growth works for you. Keeps your company evolving. Working against you may create impatience when progress feels slow. Achievement works for you. Drives results. You don't just think you make things happen. Works against you.
C
You'll love this one. And risk of prioritizing visible wins over deeper longer term investments that might not quickly pay off.
A
Oh I don't know. I don't think I actually think a few of those you know that you know about yourself Already. And so there were a few there where I was like, well, I think I. I actually think you are very good at including people in conversation. So I don't see you silence other people with your energy. I understand how that could be a risk with you because you do bring so much energy and it is like, it's literally your watchword. I feel like if I cut you in half, that's the word that would be in the middle. But maybe because you're self aware or maybe because you've thought, you've thought about it. Also because we all have agility. Right? Just because, just because you bring energy doesn't mean that you can't and include.
B
The awareness to have agility. And I, you know, we talked about this at length. So, you know, I know, I know what my values are and I've thought about them before, but I think other people might not in the same place.
A
So.
B
So the first action, I think is in order for you to have the agility, which is what Thomas is recommending. Like, don't just go be yourself all the time, Helen. So don't ignore that. Sometimes when I show up with my values, it can have a negative impact. I think that first bit is be aware of what makes you you, when that works for you and when that could work against you. And it's the working against you bit that he's saying, don't be 100% authentic or all those things that are going to work against you are going to show up for you at work and get in your way.
A
A team activity. I can see that working as a team feels quite. I mean, you definitely have to have some trust, right, because you're talking about yourself at your worst. But I can also imagine that making people smile and, you know, like, often you at your worst, you people have a little bit of an inclination of that anyway, and then actually being able to say it and kind of people being like, oh, yeah, Helen, freedom loves loads of stuff. You're like, well, of course she does. That's sort of what makes her brilliant. But actually people maybe hearing it from everyone could be quite a nice. Is that's quite a nice, like team trust activity.
B
Yeah, I think and I. The reason I quite like that using the chat GPT stuff is you've. You've got 75% of the way there without anyone having to say the hard thing. You're like, yeah, I've done some of the hard work for you. I'm just asking you what you agree.
C
What you disagree with. You don't you don't have to say it out loud.
A
And I do wonder whether it's nice to be able to still have the choice in terms of what you share for you at your worst versus you imagine other people telling you, even like you and I do. I edited some of those.
C
There were some that were very vulnerable, so I just didn't say them.
A
Okay, but that's, that's okay, right? That is also part of doing what you feel comfortable about with. And I remember in why Should Anyone Be Led by youy, one of the things that Rob Joffrey and Gareth Jones talked about, which actually is a similar theme, you know, when you start to connect dots, they talk about the idea of being selectively vulnerable. So actually, again, as a leader, they say you shouldn't just, you know, when there was like a real trend to be like, leaders need to be really vulnerable and stuff, they were like, sure, you need to be human, but don't share everything all of the time. Because actually that's not what teams need. That's not what they don't need to know from you that this is really stressful or all this stuff is kind of going on. Like, you do need to think about what's useful for you to share, but also what's useful for the people. So actually, though, initially that idea of authenticity can sound quite brutal, can't it? Being like. Well, it's about being agreeable and kind and don't worry actually when you start to get to it, you're like, it sounds quite smart and sensible.
B
Yeah, well, that bit about the team, I think, is the next part of where I get to on the action. So I almost see as like a bit of a funnel. So the top part, one of the funnel is like, what are you bringing? Where does that work for you and work against you and let's hold the what might work against you stuff before you just adapt for adapting sake. I think the second bit is he talks about, like the rules of the game. You need to understand, like, how does this team work? What are the dynamics of the team? Who does well in the team? What does success look like in the team? You need a bit of data so that you can take those things that might work for or against you and you're looking at them in the context of the team and the company that you're working in. So that's where, that's where you're going to do the like, potential adapting. Otherwise you're, you're, you're changing in a very kind of undefined or unmanaged way.
A
Yeah. So this is about being situational. Yes. So I suppose knowing how your values work for and against you, generally useful, but sort of even more useful if you then make that application to or what kind of team am I working in? What kind of culture am I in? What kind of organization am I in? And actually in some places like you and I both have achievement as a value. If I think about how that achievement shows up in different companies, it's actually always been quite different because of what that organization is like. Are they a very achievement based organization and what would achievement mean to that company? Are they very results focused? Are they very people focused? Are they very short term? You know, all of those kind of things. It's sort of, it's connecting the dots, isn't it? Between like you and who you work with and who you work for?
B
Yeah. And I think and knowing that that is quite dynamic. So I was thinking like it's team and time. So what, what how does this team work? But also even the same team can need different things at different times. Nice.
A
Yeah.
B
And therefore, you know, my energy might be really appropriate in some, some times of the year, you know, start of the year or we've got a big moment like you're like bring that that is usefully authentic, you know, effectively authentic, as he would say, use that at that moment in time. But other times that level of authenticity is going to be really annoying and it's not actually going to help the team. It's just I'm going to be really energetic when actually people want to be reflective or calm. For example.
A
Yeah, yeah. Okay.
B
Okay. So the third thing, so we've now more and more on board.
A
The more we talk about it, the more on board I'm getting.
B
So we're more, so we, we kind of, we aware of what kind of what makes us us and how that works for and against us. We've got this sort of situational context of what does the team need from me so we can be adapting. And that is the third item which I've, I've got two names. So one I've got like focus on your flex. So you work out in this team at this time. What do you need to flex so that you can still be yourself.
C
The other thing I've called written about.
B
Is be intentional about the coffee. Can I explain that point?
A
Talk to me. Love a coffee.
C
Yeah, love me a coffee. So he has this really nice comparison where he talks about authenticity in coffee.
B
And he says that like lots of people don't like A hundred percent full strength coffee. Like, you know, people like a latte with some milk and some foam and some sugar. And so very, very rarely.
A
We saw that, we were away as a team last week and the range of coffee orders, like, some people definitely don't really like coffee. And then there's you having like a pure black coffee.
B
Yeah, that's true, that's true.
C
Strong. I'm like, triple espresso, please.
A
I think you did have something like that one day.
C
I was like, here you go, Helen. Well, apparently most people don't like that because if we're thinking about authenticity, most.
B
People don't want the pure, unfiltered version of each other. They want the I've had a bit.
C
Of extra milk, bit of sugar, kind of soften you up. And then my point here is focus on your flexors. You still want a bit of coffee, right? You still.
B
But you need to work out, like, how much coffee are we triple espresso today? Because your company really, really does need the full on version of you. Or actually, are we. I mean, I'm going to go out.
C
Of my depth with coffees here, but are we a. I don't know, Cortado. Cortado, Exactly.
A
You and I both drink a lot of coffee. We're not out of our depth. Are you a pour over? Are you a V60? I mean, I can keep going.
C
You can go far further than me. I am like an espresso pod in a room and you are like, I'm.
A
Going to walk to find the coffee shop. Yeah. Though I still have milky bite. I do have milk in my coffee. But, yeah, I do. I will walk to find the coffee shop.
C
So. But yeah, I guess the point is you need to work out, like what coffee you're bringing or if you, if that doesn't work for you, you need to focus on your flex.
B
But I think the point is be intentional. Like you might think about over the next month, over the next quarter, who does my team need me to be and how can I still bring me at my best? His whole point is this isn't just this selfish. I'm just gonna be myself at work every single day, regardless. I need to be the person my team needs to be whilst also still feeling true to me. And that is tricky. But I think this sort of awareness, team context, intentional flex, is how you might get to that outcome.
A
I also wonder if you need to keep coming back to it because, I mean, you said the word dynamic. We said situational. We talked about context. This sound, it's not a. Sort of solve it once. This is not a one and done, is it? This is a. You kind of need to know yourself at the core. So I think you do need to do values. And also we've got a free values toolkit on our website. Use that. Use the Values Institute. There's loads of good stuff out there now that you just get for free. That's pretty good quality. And then I think it's kind of the wrapper. It's like what goes around that. And as you said, it's unlikely to stay the same. It's all. But it's almost kind of keep questioning yourself, like I would think. Okay, so Val, one of my values is ideas. What ideas do the team need from me at the moment? Do they need loads of ideas? So they actually need me to back away? Because the last thing they need is more ideas. You know, sometimes more ideas actually annoying and it's overwhelming. What we need is decisions, not ideas. And I suppose there are. If this. If I was going to think about this more consistently, constantly, I wonder if I'd want to come up with almost like a set of questions to ask myself because obviously I love a coach self question. Regular listeners will know that. And so I think I find questions a useful way to be. It gives you a frame for me to get started. So it might be things like, you know, what do my values mean at my best at the moment? You know, what, what would my values mean kind of at the worst, at my worst this week or you know, just to start to get some really like useful insights that I can then turn into kind of actions. Oh, I need to dial this up a bit. I need to dial this down or I need to think about doing some things differently because often we just don't have that awareness, do we? We just. Yeah, we're just.
B
We're not really thinking operating.
A
Yeah, but.
B
But I think in this like social context of being authentic and bringing yourself to work is brilliant. And I think what he's doing is putting a mirror up to that and going, but maybe we should think a bit more about it.
A
Yeah, it's being much more intentional, isn't it? Very useful. If people want to find more, please make sure you go to the Show Notes where there's loads of links. Lots of you will already be signed up to Squiggly Careers in Action. That's our newsletter that comes out every Tuesday and pretty much everything in that newsletter is always free. So our ambition is to make careers better for everyone. So we try to make sure that we're doing as much useful ideas, actions, tools that anyone can access wherever you are in the world and however you like to learn. So if you don't sign up to that and you've enjoyed the podcast, that just might be helpful for you and your development.
B
And nearly 40, 000 people do, Sarah, so lots of people are getting all that insight. So hopefully, hopefully we can have a few more into the mix.
A
But that's everything for this week. Thank you so much for listening and back to you again soon. Bye for now. Bye everyone.
C
Sam.
Hosts: Sarah Ellis & Helen Tupper
Date: October 7, 2025
In this milestone 500th episode of Squiggly Careers, Sarah Ellis and Helen Tupper deeply examine the much-touted workplace mantra: “bring your authentic self to work.” Drawing inspiration and provocation from Dr. Tomas Chamorro-Premuzic’s critical take on workplace authenticity (and his new book), they challenge the wisdom of unfettered authenticity. Instead, the hosts explore how trust, adaptability, and emotional intelligence are crucial for career success, and offer actionable strategies you can deploy to balance your genuine self with what your organization or team truly needs.
Dr. Chamorro-Premuzic’s work sharply critiques the “cult of authenticity.”
Hosts discuss why simply being yourself at all times can be counterproductive, even egotistical:
Memorable Analogy:
Dr. Chamorro-Premuzic proposes “effective authenticity,” defined as:
“Project(ing) a version of yourself that resonates with others whilst maintaining a semblance of genuineness.” (Helen quoting Tomas, 05:34)
The “effective” approach is about harmony:
Emotional Intelligence:
Helen and Sarah translate these insights into a three-step actionable strategy:
(10:14–14:25)
(16:20–18:00)
(18:41–21:56)
Authenticity is like coffee:
Be proactive and intentional with your self-presentation based on what the moment and the team call for.
Quote:
“I need to be the person my team needs to be whilst also still feeling true to me. And that is tricky. But I think this sort of awareness, team context, intentional flex, is how you might get to that outcome.” (Helen, 20:56)
On the limits of authenticity:
“If you look at it with a critical lens, you do get to: ‘But what if… What if that isn’t relevant? What if that isn’t helpful to what we’re trying to do?’” (Helen, 07:05)
On emotional intelligence:
“People who do this well… are good at understanding others and how you show up in relation to them. I haven’t read something for a while where emotional intelligence has been so front and center.” (Helen, 09:36)
On values at best vs. worst:
“Be aware of what makes you you, when that works for you and when that could work against you. And it’s the working against you bit that he’s saying, don’t be 100% authentic or all those things that are going to work against you are going to show up for you at work and get in your way.” (Helen, 13:53)
On being selectively vulnerable:
“Leaders… shouldn’t just, you know, when there was like a real trend to be like leaders need to be really vulnerable… You do need to think about what’s useful… Share, but also what’s useful for the people.” (Sarah, 15:25)
On adaptability:
“Even the same team can need different things at different times.… My energy might be really appropriate… at other times that level of authenticity is going to be really annoying.” (Helen, 18:00)
The episode maintains Sarah and Helen’s signature warm, honest, and practical style, blending gentle humor, transparency about their own journeys, and clear-eyed advice. Listeners are left with permission—and a toolkit—to question simplistic calls for authenticity and instead cultivate a mutually beneficial, adaptable, and self-aware version of themselves at work.
For more tips, toolkits, and resources, check the show notes or visit Amazing If.