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Sam.
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Hello, my friends, Greg Koukl here on Stand to Reason and welcome to the show. Glad to be with you. I've actually been out of this chair for about two months, save for one week and all what you've heard is shows we've done in advance to make sure that I didn't leave you as orphans. But it's nice to be back with my team in the studio. But I've been up in northern Wisconsin. Many of you know I have a place up there and I love it up there. It's, you know, this Covid thing. In 2020, they had this concept of sheltering at home, at home. But I think of sheltering at sheltering up north, which is what we call it because I'm from Chicago and the Wisconsin place was up north and it's nice to shelter there whether I'm on holiday or whether I'm working. And I've actually written like two books sheltering up north at that place. And it's just been nice for me. But plan to go back later on in the, in the summer and maybe a little bit in the fall and close things up. But anyway, I'm here now and I actually saw a sign on Highway 70. That's the main kind of highway of sorts. It's not a highway in the way Californians think of. It's a two lane asphalt road in northern Wisconsin heading into town. But I saw a sign was up there and every time I go by it, I'd wonder what this person was thinking. The slime just simply says knowledge is not faith. Knowledge is not faith. Now that's ambiguous because it could mean a couple of different things. It could mean that just because you know something. I'm going to take this in a religious context, by the way, because of the reference to faith. Just because you know something about spiritual things does not mean you're exercising any trust in that thing. And of course that's my view. I've written about it in a couple of places, but more extensively in the story of reality. Because the nature of, of genuine faith is not that you have a certain or knowledge about something or that you affirm certain facts, but rather that you affirm those facts and you trust in them and that's the act of faith. And so if that's what this person has in mind, hey, look at knowledge is not faith. Knowing spiritual things is not trusting in them, then I agree with him. And I've often used the illustration that I could know that an airplane has the capability of taking me to my Destination. On Friday, I'll be climbing on a flight to Denver to spend Saturday with the great crowd over at Summit Ministries in Colorado Springs. I could know that, but it doesn't do me any good if I know it and I don't get on the plane. When I get on the plane, my knowledge has feet on it. And I am now trusting in the plane and the pilot to do for me what I can't do for myself. So if that's what's in view here, knowledge is not faith. I'm all, I'm right there. Now it could be that the phrase means something differently. Different, it means another thing. And what it's meaning is that if you are depending on knowing something before you can put your faith in it, then that's not really faith because faith isn't knowing. Faith is just believing without knowing. Now this is kind of a statement that reflects the leap of faith crowd that if you have evidence for something, and boy have I heard this a lot, then how is it that you are exercising faith? Where is room for faith when you have all these facts? So here's what we do stand a reason. We give reasons that Christianity is true so that people can have a knowledge base from which they act in trust or faith. And that knowledge base is important. And in fact that you find all through the entire Bible. In fact, just think of the Exodus, why did God do all the miracles, the 10 that we see there, from Exodus 2 to Exodus 14 the text tells us so that they shall know that there is a God in Israel. No leap of faith evidence that builds or creates or establishes a knowledge base that, that you then act upon. And of course the action on the knowledge is the faith that in expression, active trust. And so certainly there's a lot of people who hold the view that faith and knowledge are opposite ends of the spectrum. And of course, if that's what they have in mind, then I think that's a huge mistake. It's not sound, it's certainly not, it's not biblical. It's interesting. And by the way, when you make this point with somebody, and I think many of you understand exactly what I'm talking about and you have to encounter that yourself when you're talking with other people. There's a very simple quick reference that you can go to and it's the end of the Gospel of John in John 20. And the irony here is this comes in the very next verse after the doubting Thomas encounter and that's a passage or that segment there, doubting Thomas that people take to be an indication that God desires blind faith or Jesus. Blessed are those who don't see and yet believe. See, there you go. He doesn't want us to have reasons. That isn't what Jesus said. He said, blessed are those who don't see. He meant that. It's not a metaphor. Blessed are those who believe even though they haven't seen me and Thomas, you didn't see me, at least initially, but all your buddies did. And in fact, one of the other parallel passages of that, of that encounter in the synoptic gospels says that some were berated because they didn't believe, because they didn't listen to the rest of the disciples who had seen Jesus. And of course, that's Thomas. But here's the verse that's important, the next verse, verse 21 or something. Chapter 20. John tells you the reason he wrote the gospel. And he says many other signs and wonders. Jesus performed miracles that have not been included in this book. Later he says if he had recorded, everything would fill the books of the world. You know, so he's speaking hyperbolically, like exaggeration for the sake of effect. But there's tons of things Jesus did that just aren't included. But in John, there's seven miracles. And he explains why. He said these have been included in order that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God. Another thing. And in believing, have life in his name. So here you have John saying he wrote the entire gospel to give evidence so that you will make. You'll be standing on a concrete foundation to express an act of trust. Believe that two things, Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God, and consequently have life in his Lamb. Now that's a nice, easy accessible passage, kind of remember roughly well the end of John. You go there. If we are not to give any evidence for our view, if there's something amiss with apologetics because that's contrary to faith, then why did John write this? That's the question you ask the person who's making the point. What did John actually mean then? If you think Jesus is telling Thomas that he ought to have blind faith in that passage, he's saying it. Then in the very next verse, John, the author of the gospel, is contradicting him. Okay, so that's an easy handy one. So there's my little homily about knowledge is not faith. Now I have some other comments. Because I had a wonderful time on Sunday night. It was the day before I left. I Left, oh, dark 30 on Monday morning from Wisconsin. But Sunday evening I had a great chance with friends to have a dinner there, and they had a whole passel of people that came up with them from Phoenix and young people, I mean, like 60. And they packed them into their fairly large facility, their home, their cabin, although it's more like a. I don't know, it's like a resort. It's beautiful. And they packed them in, they all got fed. And then I got a chance to spend an hour and a half with them, mostly answering questions that were written out in advance. But there was one question that came up multiple times. So as I recall, it was the first question that I addressed. And I have talked about this on the air before, but, you know, repetition is the mother of learning. And I should just. It's a good idea to repeat some of these things because these come up and I have new listeners coming in, I imagine, and they may not have heard what I said in the past. So I'm just going to give you the question and I'm going to answer it because this one is not that hard to answer. How can we be sure of our salvation? How can we know we're saved? That's a great question. It's a fair question. It's a practical question. Because every Christian probably at some time or another wonders whether they're in or not. Or maybe they might be fooling themselves. Jesus pointed out, there's going to be a lot of people like that. Many will come and say, lord, didn't we do this, that and the other thing? And some of it's miraculous stuff. We prophesied, we worked miracles. And Jesus said, depart from me. I never knew you. These aren't people who, like, lost their salvation, allegedly. No, these people never had it. I never knew you. Wow. Maybe I'm in that category. I thought I knew Jesus, but maybe, maybe I didn't. And I don't want to hear that when I stand before him. I don't want to hear, I never knew you. I want to hear, well done, good and faithful servant. So this is an important question to answer for everyone. And so I answered it by giving three biblical what's the right word here? Not qualifications, Indicators. There it is, indicators of one's salvation. Okay, here is the first thing. In other words, these are three things that 1 can look at regarding their own life and, well, I guess depending will be able to decide whether they are in the kingdom or not. But they're reliable criteria because they're the ones that the Bible itself gives. And the first thing that we can count on is that God has made a promise. God has made a promise. And the promise is that anyone who puts their trust in Jesus for salvation, anyone who puts their trust in Jesus for their salvation, not in themselves, not in something else, but in Jesus. Those people who have Jesus now also have eternal life. And by the way, it's something the text says we have at the moment. If we have eternal life. When does eternal life end? Well, it never ends. That's what it means to be eternal. It isn't like, maybe we'll get it if we hang in there. No, we have it. We have eternal life. So the promise. One of the most vivid examples of this promise is in First John, Chapter 5 and First John, Chapter 5. I pretty much have it. I couldn't say memorize because I didn't memorize it, but I do know it pretty good. But I'm just turning to it because I don't want to stumble on it at this point. And John says in First John that the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life. Okay, there's the reference to eternal life.
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And.
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And it's been given how. And the life is in His Son. He who has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. So there is a very straightforward criteria. If you have the Son, how do you get the Son? You trust him as many as received Him. To them he gave the right to become children of God. So you are receiving Christ, you are believing Christ, you are confessing Christ. There are many different ways that the scripture characterizes the same thing. Our trust in him, our leaning on him. But John kind of. He goes a step further. He doesn't say, he who has the Son has life. He who does not have the Son does not have the life. And stop there. Although that would be good enough. Well, that's pretty good. He adds this in verse 13. These things I've written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know. So that you may know. Catch that word. So that you may know that you have eternal life. That's 1 John 5, 11, 13. I said, that's pretty cool. Given that question. If you trust. If you believe now, I guess there are times people might say, well, maybe I don't believe strongly enough. That's harder to deal with, because that has to do with whatever's going on inside of them. But I heard a talk many years ago. I don't have the talk anymore. It was on a cassette tape. And Even if I found the tape, I don't have a cassette player to play it. But this preacher gave. He was talking about going out on the ice in winter. And if you've ever been in north country where there's ice, sometimes the ice is kind of clear. And you may not always be confident or certain or know that the ice is thick enough to hold you. So you could have tremendous confidence and move out on thin ice and break through. In other words, you could have tremendous faith, trust in the ice's ability to hold you, but it's not capable of doing that. Or it turns out that the ice might be thick and you're still really nervous. And so you're crawling out fearfully on the ice, which isn't going to break because it's thick. That's the fact of the matter. But you're still doing your best. Maybe a little uncertain, but you're stepping out. One has strong faith, one has weak faith. What's the difference between the two? The ice, the ice. And then this guy offers this line which is so great, did a great job. I wish I could give him credit for it. He said, jesus is thick ice. Jesus is thick ice. You can walk out boldly on that ice. You can crawl out with fear and trembling, uncertain. But if you're going out on the ice, you're putting your trust in the level, the strength, the power of the trust is not what saves you. It's the thick ice in this case. So the first thing is, God made a promise. You trust in Jesus, there you go. He's yours. And so is eternal life that goes with the package. Here's the second thing. The Bible also makes a reference in this first case I just mentioned, that was to an objective reality, the promise God has made. But it also makes reference to a subjective reality. When you look in Romans 8, there's a very sweet passage there where Paul writes about the Holy Spirit working in our heart in a kind of way that we cry out. And then he uses like a Hebrew or Aramaic reference there, using the word abba, A, B, B, A, which we cry out, abba, father. Now, the word abba is a word, means father, but it's an endearment of sorts. And when I was in Israel, I think I heard children calling abba, abba to their father, because that's what it means, Papa, daddy, that kind of thing. And so there's a closeness and intimacy that's intimated by the use of that word, Papa, daddy. And Paul says, now, on the subject of size, there's this sense that we have a subject of emotional, palpable awareness of God's presence in our life and that we belong to Him. That's a beautiful thing. The liability in that particular case is that it is subjective, which means it comes and goes. It can be there in very powerful ways. And other times, you know, where's God? I don't feel Him. And that's when we got to go back to the promise. Well, do you qualify for salvation under the promise? I think I do. I am. I am trusting Him. Then don't worry about it. Remember when Lewis wrote about Aslan? How often did Aslan show up in the stories Chronicles of Narnia? Aslan didn't show up very often. There are all kinds of things going on. Sometimes the people are saying, hey, where is Aslan? But he does show up eventually, right when he's needed. He appears. But you realize that he'd been there all the time. He just had not made his presence known. And this is the point, I think one of them that Lewis is trying to get across, as the famous line in the stories goes, Aslan is not a tame lion. You can't just snap your fingers and have him jump through your hoops. He's not at your beck and call. In the same way, sometimes he seems absent. But this, I think is Lewis's point, that this is like God, he seems absent. So the subjective element spoken of in Romans 8, the Abba father element, that's wow, great when it's there in a robust way with us, but it's not always going to be there in a robust way. This is where the promise takes the front and center. And incidentally, if you have a sense of God's presence, it could be that you have a false. What's the right way for me to put it? You don't have a false sense. It's a real sense, but it's a false God. It's not really God. This is the concern for many of our LDS friends because their confidence that Mormonism is true is based on a subjective experience. They have the burning in the bosom. So having the subjective experience all by itself, yes, I feel really close to God. I know that I'm God's. And a lot of people who are totally non Christian will say that about themselves. But that doesn't mean they have anything to do with the real God. It's all subjective. It is not objective. So you've got the objective promise. You have the occasions of the subjective experience and then finally you have. And this is Another objective element, the demonstrable presence of Christ in your life. By the way you live your life, your behavior matters. This is the point James is making in James 2. I think frequently misunderstand that. But he says, look, you show me your faith without your works is the way it's written. But basically we're talking about corresponding behavior that is consistent with faith in Christ. When John the Baptist encountered the spiritual leaders, he made fun of them. He said, you're just coming out to get baptized to make a show. He said, bring forth fruits in keeping with your so called repentance. Your professed repentance that's manifest here in this behavior. I don't trust you guys. You're in for the show. You better show yourself in your life by your behaviors that the repentance that you are manifesting or you're parading about now is the real thing. So that's the third thing. Do our lives demonstrate commitment to Christ? Do the things that God cares about? Are those the things that we care about? Are we aligned with that? Is that our trajectory? Paul also talked, going back to Romans 8, of two basic trajectories. He doesn't use that word, but this is what he describes. He calls one, after the flesh, life after the flesh, and two, a life after the Spirit. And those who are on the flesh trajectory, he said, lookit, they cannot please God. That's not even possible for them. Now he's not talking about when he says that they're in the flesh. The way we talk about it, we think, oh, I went to church, I was in the Spirit, man, it's great. Then I went to the beach, oh my goodness, all the girls, I got in the flesh right away. That's not the way Paul is using the term. It's clear from the context if you keep reading. Paul says, you are not in the flesh if the Spirit of God abides in you. In other words, if you are spiritually reborn, then you are not in the flesh. By definition, an in the flesh person is unregenerate. And their life shows that it's on a trajectory. And if you claim to be Christian, but your life looks like everybody else's, who's not Christian? In your values, your conduct, you might be a very nice person, but you're not saved. If you don't have the Spirit, you are none of his. That's what Paul says in Romans 8. So there's that trajectory of the flesh and the trajectory of the Spirit, which he describes as being led by the Spirit that he characterizes or defines. In case anybody's confused about what he means, he uses the phrase putting to death the deeds of the flesh. Being led by the Spirit means putting to death the deeds of the flesh. It means living in a way that is growing in holiness. And you're putting off the things that are the nasties. Get rid of that stuff. Walk in holiness. Without holiness, you will not see God. I think that's in Titus or somewhere. So that's the third thing. I think Peter even says as he's describing certain virtues in 1 Peter 1. I think that's where this is. He says, make your election more sure by behaving this way. I don't think he was saying, make your election, your salvation more sure to God. God knows whether you regenerate or not, but he's saying, make your election more sure to yourself. You want to be confident that you are God's. Yes, you trusting in the promise. There are times when you feel the spirit, but you better be walking in a proper way, because if you are not, you're fooling yourself. And Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6, Starting in verse 9, he's got a list of nasties there. The first few are sexual. And he starts this section by saying, do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor effeminate. And then he adds more of a different sort of sinful behavior will inherit the kingdom. So he does say, well, such were some of you. But now you've been watched, you've been changed, and it's all different now. And that's the idea of the third thing. So do you want to be confident that you're a Christian? Trust in the promise, Be alert, aware for those times, and they will happen. Obviously, if you are born again, where you feel the presence of God in the sense that you are his Abba Father, you're one of his children, as many as received Him. To them he gave the right to become the children of God. 1 John 3. See how great a love the Father has bestowed upon us that we should be called the children of God, and such we are. Okay, and then assess your life. If you're living like hell, you're probably going there. But if you're struggling. I'm not talking about moral perfection here. Everybody sins. But if you as a Christian, as Paul puts it in Ephesians, I'll make that Galatians 5, putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you are manifesting more the fruits of the Spirit there. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, self control. If that's what's happening in your life, even if it's a struggle, even if there's messy fallbacks, that's the direction you're going, well, then you could be pretty confident. You could be very confident that you are saved and you're in possession of eternal life and that never ends. All right, let's take a break and then I've got some calls here. Greg Kokel for Stand a Reason As
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a high school teacher, I always had a red pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front of my students teaching a lesson, you could find me assessing assignments, grading essays, and evaluating exams. The red pen played a crucial role in the educational development of my students. With it, I question their assumptions, expose their errors, and challenge them to think critically. You see, a good teacher doesn't merely tell his students that they're wrong. A good teacher shows his students why they're wrong so they don't make the same mistakes twice. He corrects because he cares. Last year I was scrolling through social media and frankly, I was discouraged at all the bad thinking that undergirded much of what I was reading. Then it hit me. What if someone applied the red pen to this flawed thinking? And Red pen logic with Mr. B was born. In the last few months, Red Pen Logic has grown in popularity through our engaging and shareable educational graphics and videos. We are helping people, especially young people, assess bad thinking by using good thinking, and we have a lot of fun in the process. So here's your homework assignment, like the Red Pen Logic Facebook page so you don't miss our next graphic. And subscribe at the red Pen Logic YouTube channel so you don't miss a single video. Class dismissed.
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Friends, if you like this broadcast, I know you'll love Strask. It's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy hall and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter. Strask is released twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes long, so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage, or just plain loafing at home. Amy and I tackle your questions on theology and ethics and culture and lots more, offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face. You can listen on Apple podcasts or wherever you download your own shows. Just remember, send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast Strask. That's Strask have you ever wondered how Stand to Reason is able to produce fresh, accessible content each week? We rely on generous donors so that we can provide you with the tools and tactics you need to be an effective ambassador for Christ. If you've benefited from this podcast or any of our donor provided resources, including our apps, blog posts, articles and short videos, consider making a financial contribution to Stand to Reason today. Just visit str.orgdonate to show your financial support. It has been an honor providing you with a host of free resources for more than 27 years to help you give voice to the Christian worldview. Help us continue by making a financial gift today@str.org donate. All right friends, let's go to New Jersey and Dan and nice to talk to you Dan. I haven't taken a live call in a long time, so it's good to chat with you.
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Nice to chat with you too, Greg.
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Thank you, buddy.
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We've actually, we've met face to face a couple times. I've since Chaos to Clarity, I've been taking my kids of the appropriate age to Philadelphia to see your Reality Conference and just want to let you know how much we appreciate it.
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Well, Chaos to Clarity was like four years ago or something, wasn't it?
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Four or five? Yeah, I don't remember. It was the first one after Covid, I think, when we were allowed to gather again.
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Sure. Well, I'm so glad to hear that. And since you've been doing it multiple years, I'm just wondering if this has become like an annual event that your kids look forward to because it's something fun and special. Is it a road trip for you?
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Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They do. And they even, even through high school they're there. My daughter is my oldest is married and Downing actually not too far from Downington there and her husband is a pastor. He was a youth pastor at the time too. So they would also come and bring bring some of the kids from their church. I work at a Christian school up here too. I've gotten a few families to make the make the Journey down now over
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the last couple years. Well, thank you. We sold out in Philly and we usually do that. The date of the Philly event now is March 12th and 13th. Which reminds me, I just need to let people know that of course Atlanta is the first reality. Now in the fall we switched California to the spring SoCal. But September 11 and 12, easy day to remember. September 11th and 12th is the Atlanta event and our early bird signup ends July 17th. So we got about a week or so, people can save, what, 20 bucks on a ticket by signing up early. So if they want to go to. Let's see, Apologetics. Let's see, why do I have this? Why do I have a hard.
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Reality Apologetics.
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Thank you, Reality apologetics dot com. I think I promote you up here.
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Don't worry.
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There you go. Oh, here it is, too. I got it. Reality apologetics.com you can get all the information. It's Atlanta, September 11th, 12th, Seattle, October 16th, 17th, Minneapolis. My daughter will be there by then as a student in Bethel, November 13th and 14th. Then in 27. Oh, can you believe that? Isn't that so weird? Say 27. Okay. Yeah, but in 27, Dallas, Texas, February 19th and 20th. Philly, March 12th and 13th in LA. We'll finalize our season out April 23rd. Third, 24th. Okay. What's on your mind?
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All right. Well, my wife and I were having a discussion with one of our sons the other day over dinner, and he is a believer, but he's struggling a little, I think, because he interacts with a lot of non believers and his friend. Friends with them. And his question had to do a little bit with election and God's sovereignty and our free will. Yeah, I'll ask. There's two questions. I had them write them down in case I had the opportunity to call you.
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Sure.
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Which I do. The first question was, how is God sovereign over our decisions and still just at the same time? And he. He clarified or quantified that by saying, if we are predestined to choose God, why are those predestined to hell? Held to the same standard.
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Okay,
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do you want me to ask the second question?
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Why don't you throw it in there? And I might mix up the answer for both of them, but if I miss it, we'll come back.
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Okay. So the second question is, where does our free will end if we're chosen to believe in God and cannot resist?
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Right.
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What decisions can we resist? And he. And that one, he. Well, I think for both of them, he just said, where in Scripture can I have some support or evidence for the way it's answered?
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Well, actually, that's a really important question because this is where we have to start all the time. And there are a lot of questions that come up even on this list of questions about the event that I dealt with on Sunday in Wisconsin. I bet you there were five questions that had to do with this issue. And I realized I can't get into this with the limited time I have. I would love to have talked the whole time on this issue because I needed to get to other issues. But there's like some complexity here and there's also in some elements here. I think I remember reading somewhere that there are certain words in the English language that youngsters can't understand because there's a certain, like, awareness. There's something about being around for a while that helps you to understand the meaning. One of them was ironic. How do you explain to people what the word ironic means? But after a while you hear it and you see circumstances, then you understand irony. But that's something that takes time to develop the capability to kind of put the pieces together to understand that the same thing is true here, I think, in the whole issue of election and chosenness and free will and all that other stuff. Partly because the whole notion of freedom is ambiguous. Some might say, well, what does it mean? And I'd ask that question you might ask your son. Well, when you talk about free will, describe what it is that you mean. And sometimes it takes a while for people to kind of pin it down. They might say, well, if I have free will, that means I can do what I want to. I have the ability to do what I want to do. Okay? So freedom is tied to doing what you want. Even if what you want is not a good thing, at least you have the freedom to do it. Okay? Others will say, well, free will is not just the freedom to do what you want, but the ability to do the opposite, to do the other. Okay? And there are reasons why philosophers. My point here is just to say there are different ways that the concept of freedom can be characterized. That makes sense, okay? If a person's doing what he wants to do, then that's his freedom, his choice. So let's just work with that basic definition for the moment, okay? And Bill Craig would say, well, freedom is the opposite of determinism.
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Okay?
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Now, strict determinism is the way I would characterize it to make it clear to people is machine like behavior. There are no choices that machines make. Even if they were conscious, the machine like behavior happens. Well, let's throw out the consciousness thing. That just confuses matters. Machines just operate by inputs, outputs and all that. Whatever is environmentally, physically causing them to act the way they cause the way they act.
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A strict atheist might say that that's what a human is, right? Just actions determined by DNA genetics.
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Well, sure, but then his. Well, at this point, all I'm doing is trying to clarify a definition. But if an atheist said that, I would say, then your Statement then has no mean because the noise that just came out of your mouth was caused by things outside of your control. And the way your mouth worked and the voice worked and everything were just something that mechanically took place. It doesn't mean anything. You're not meaning anything any more than a machine that makes a noise means anything by the noise. You turn your car around, you, there it goes. And what does that mean? That doesn't mean anything because it's happening. Because you turned the key and the pistons went up and the gas happened and you got internal combustion, et cetera, and it made noise. That's just an aside. What a lot of atheists don't think of is when they make that statement, they erase themselves.
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Right, Right.
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Okay. But in any event, I'm simply saying that for many people freedom is, or Bill Craig would say, the opposite of determinism. So if it's not machine like behavior, we are able to make choices that are ours, then we have freedom. Okay? We're not strictly determined. Now that doesn't mean, if we are not strictly determined that there aren't some things about our lives that are determined even though we're not machines. And this is where I think confusion comes in. So there are certain things I can't do. I can't fly. I'm not going to flap my arms and just up in the air because my nature is such that it's not allowed, doesn't allow that to happen. I can't fly. I'm not a flying creature. I can get in a plane, but that's not flying in the sense that we're talking about. So there are certain things about me that determine options and alternatives. I'm restrained by my nature. But that doesn't mean I don't have freedom in the sense that we talked about earlier within those restraints. Does that make sense?
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Yes.
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B
Okay, good. So let's go to your question with that in mind. How is God sovereign over our decisions? And just at the same time, and the way you clarified it is if God chooses to save some, how can he blame other people that he didn't save when he could have? And this is where I think there's a confusion here. That question gets raised frequently because it seems like it's unjust. But what is God judging when he judges people? What is God judging? Well, he's judging their behavior. Their behavior is sinful, they are guilty and they get judged for sinful behavior. That's the nonbeliever. What about the believer? The believer gets a pardon. Well, that's not fair. Well, if you say fair, you're right, because fair generally meets. Everybody gets the same treatment. But God's under no obligation to be fair. He can do whatever he wants with what is his. And Dan, do you remember the parable that Jesus told about the workers that go out in the field? And some went early and some went late and then they all got the same pay. And one guy griped and he said, look at him. I'm generous with these other guys. What's that to you? You got what we agreed on. So that parable is meant to make the point that God can do whatever he wants with what it is, what is his. If he chooses to exercise mercy in some cases, that doesn't obligate him to exercise mercy in all cases, especially when it comes to guilty people. So here's a parallel. Okay, good. Here's the parallel. Some people get a pardon, they go to prison, they're guilty, but they get pardoned. Is the whatever, the governor now responsible to empty the jails? He let one guy go free, now he's got to let everybody go free? No, they're in jail because they're guilty. And to keep them in jail is an act of justice. There is no injustice in keeping guilty people under the punishment they deserve. And that's why God is not injust or unjust to punish the guilty, even though he freely chooses to pardon some and provide mercy that is available because of Jesus. So in my view, this goes to your first question, your Son's first question. The issue of justice is not in question, is not an issue. Because as long as the people who God doesn't choose are being punished justly, which they will be. That's the Great White Throne judgment. You got the picture. And here's the books are open, you know, in Revelation 20, and they are judged according to their deeds, right? So the law is made available. The breaking the law breakers and the law, the events of law violation are all recorded there. And that shows that God is just. And therefore for people like you and I who are under Jesus sacrifice, they are getting what they deserve, what they deserve. The others, we are not getting what we deserve. We are getting what we don't deserve. We are getting mercy instead of justice. But God is not obligated to give everybody mercy. He can do what he wants with what is His. And so therefore there's no injustice if God is sovereign over the grace that he distributes to some and not to others. Does that make sense so far?
- [46:37]
A
It does. It does.
- [46:39]
B
Okay, so let's I think understanding the
- [46:41]
A
determinism piece in the full determinism versus the. I guess partial determinism is helpful to understand.
- [46:50]
B
Yeah. And I wouldn't even talk about the other. I wouldn't even use the word determinism to describe the other, because it's just life. You know, we all know that there are limits, but there's another element here about choosing. This comes to the second point. Where does free will come from? Let me look at the time. Okay, I got 10 minutes here. Where does free will come from? And if we can't resist being chosen, what can we resist? It's an odd way to ask the question. So let me see if. I mean, I'm not criticizing it. I'm just saying that it's kind of confused. All right. Where does free will.
- [47:30]
A
I think that's what I think. It was a great conversation, but it was a long conversation, you know, over dinner with him, and my wife was there, too, and I felt like we were talking a little bit in circles. And I think he's thinking that I'm making choices that I can't help but make. And how can God hold me accountable? How can he hold an unbeliever accountable to the same level that he's holding me accountable to when he's chosen me and given me his grace?
- [48:06]
B
Yeah. Well, I think what your son is describing, by the way, could I ask how old he is?
- [48:12]
A
He is. He'll be 20 years old.
- [48:15]
B
Okay, good. All right. I'm glad he's thinking about these things. The fact I'm sympathetic to the idea that if we can't do otherwise, if we are fallen and broken and sinners and our sinful actions come forth from our broken sinfulness, there is no way that we can live a sinless life. How can we be held responsible for that? That's part of the question. And I'm completely sympathetic to that. But all I can say is God still does. He holds us responsible for our actions, even if our actions are evil and consistent with our evil nature. Our natures are evil, and what we do is consistent with that. It comes forth. There's no possibility that we won't sin. Non posse, non picare, the ancients said. And so that's why we need to be rescued. But we are still responsible for the sin that follows from our own natures. We're the fallen ones. Now, I think this is a little bit hard to stomach for some people. Again, I'm sympathetic to that, but I have only one illustration that might help. So did you See the Lord of
- [49:38]
A
the Rings trilogy many times.
- [49:41]
B
Oh, good for you. Okay, so we're going back to the two Towers and where Sauron is making the Uruk Hai out of the mud down there in the chambers below where they're building this army. Remember that? And then one of the Uruk Hai are born whole. They're born adults, like, and they're born as. Okay, and one of them comes out of this mud thing with a kind of a membrane around him, and he busts out and he's born roaring, and he reaches up and grabs the orc midwife and strangles him and throws him away. Do you remember that scene?
- [50:20]
A
Yep. Absolutely.
- [50:21]
B
Okay, this sucker, this guy is bad. He's bad from the beginning. He's bad from his birth. He is made bad to do bad. Now, my sentiments in a circumstance like that is this critter needs to be killed. You wipe him out, man. You take him down. He's bad. And I'm not thinking, gee, well, he was born that way, so it's not really his fault. He's still bad and still should be taken out. And that's the best parallel analog, whatever that I can think of regarding this particular issue we're talking about. Okay, human beings are born bad and then they do bad. Not everybody does as bad as everybody else, but they're all in the same category of law breakers and against God. Now, how is God going to rescue people who are inherently lawbreakers? They are living according to their natures, within the boundaries of their natures. Those boundaries give him no room to be righteous. Not the kind of righteousness that God requires, which is perfect righteousness. No, they're all criminals. But he wants a bride for his son. He wants to demonstrate his mercy, maybe to the angelic powers that rebelled before human beings did. There's speculation about how this all works in the grand picture, but nevertheless, he wants to rescue a guru. And so what he does is he acts in such a way that those whom he's rescued, or you could use the term predetermined to be saved, destined to be saved. Those who he elected, those who he chose. Notice I'm using all biblical language in its normal, ordinary sense, which underscores that the most important way to answer all these questions is first see what the Bible says and then try to understand the questions that arise from that in light of what the Bible teaches. And I think this teaching is pretty straightforward. So what does God do in that situation? He allows many rebellious people to remain in rebellion and then properly judges them for their rebellion. But he also works in a mysterious way. Jesus calls it hearing his voice in John 10. He's referring there to the effective call theologians would call it, that God works to. And I'm just going to use a word that I think is a great word for this, but I don't hear people using it. God woos us to himself. Those that he's chosen, he woos us to himself. And think about, you're married and you married your wife, and before you got married and you started having an experience of attraction and closeness to her that we usually call falling in love. Did you choose to fall in love?
- [53:46]
A
I'd say no.
- [53:47]
B
No, of course not. Nobody chooses that. It happens. Then you make choices in light of that. Okay, I think that's a good analog here, because I don't think love is a choice. Not that kind of love. There's another kind of love that is a choice. We choose to be loving. But this, what we're talking about, this isn't a choice. And so when this is where Jay Warner and Frank Turek and I disagree strongly on this particular point, but it just seems so ob to me that love. We love our kids. When you start loving your kid, well, when they were born, well, did you just say, hey, which one's mine? I'm going to choose to love that? No, it was like there, the same thing happens. God does the same thing. And as a result, just like when your love grew strong enough that it in a certain way compelled you, you desired, you wanted to exercise your will to propose to your wife. In the same way God works in us to compel us to choose him, we make a choice. Now, the only hitch in the analog, the parallel is that you could say, regarding your affections for the young lady there, that you eventually married, you could say, well, I could decide not to marry her, even though I feel this tremendous desire to do so. That's true, but in the case I'm saying is that God has already chosen us and that's going to happen. That is called predetermined. That's a done deal in God's mind. That's what it means to be elect, to be chosen. But he's not tempering with our free will. He's not dragging us into the kingdom against our will. I know Louis used that language a little bit sometimes, how people do. But strictly speaking, theologically, that's not what we're talking about. We choose God because He first chose us. So the important thing here is, and there's something mysterious about that I get it. But the important thing to keep in mind. I got 60 seconds here. The important thing to keep in mind is that God has acted in such a way to secure our happy and willing choice of him. So it's not against our will. Not then. It would have been six months before. But no, he's done something to rescue us in a very important way. And then we realize, boy, I'm glad that he did what he did. Thank you for saving me. That's what we say. Thank you for saving me. And so I think there's a lot there. You might want to listen to the podcast again with your son and your wife and then maybe talk about more things. But you start with what the text says. And I just use lots of individual words and quotes and verses. This is pretty straightforward. Now we're trying to figure out how to make sense of the particulars and the details, the freedom, the choice and all that other stuff, and the justness of God punishing the guilty and the mercy for those he choses to forgive. That's all we got to work out in light of what the text says. But lots of stuff to chew on, Dan. And like I said when you called, when I started talking, I'm really glad you called and I'm glad we got the chance to talk together. I hope to see you in Philly next time around with your kids.
- [57:10]
A
Oh, absolutely. The girls look forward to it every year, so I'm certain it will be. We'll be there.
- [57:15]
B
All right, buddy. Take care.
- [57:17]
A
Yep. Thanks so much for your time. You're welcome.
- [57:19]
B
Bye.
- [57:19]
A
Bye.
- [57:20]
B
Well, that's it. Friends. What a good hour. That was fast. Great. Coco for stand a reason. That's me and that's the show Give them having friends. Bye. Bye, Sam.