← Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
Sam.
- [00:30]
B
All right, friends, Greg Koukl here. And we are going to do something really special on this show today. In fact, I'm going to do something I have never, ever done before and I will never, ever do again. I'm going to start here by you hear the chuckle in the background because I have a guest. I'll introduce him in just a moment. I'm going to start here by breaking a rule. And my rule is I don't use the word excited. Why not? I don't like that word. Why not? Because I think it's way overused. It's overused by pastors. It's overused by Christian communicators. I mean, it's just kind of dull. Nobody believes it because it's just so overused. But I am going to use it today, and I'll tell you why, because I'm pretty excited, actually, 33 years ago on May 1, 1993, so we're a little about a month past our anniversary, I began to run a race that, well, it's called Standard Reason. And I had a simple goal, and that was to train Christians to think more carefully about their convictions and then to engage others with their careful thoughts and to do so persuasively and to do so graciously, but also to do so truthfully. And now, more than three decades later, we got 20 people on our team. We've got speakers and a website and content and conferences and training that are second to none. And we have had an impact on millions of people all over the world. And I just got to tell you, when I look back on it,
- [02:30]
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I
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don't know, it's like surreal to me. It's so far beyond anything that I ever imagined. But I know that I can't keep running this race forever. Tomorrow, June 10th, I turn 76, and people say, well, you're only as old as you feel. And I tell them that's not good news. In my case, no, I'm doing okay. But I've been in the harness for a long time, and I'm not quite getting out of the harness right now. But we are in a position. I am to begin passing the baton to my Joshua, as it were, if you think of Moses. And this is why on May 1 this year, the Stand to Reason board unanimously has chosen our chief apologist and longtime friend and confidant and colleague Alan Schliemann as president elect of Standard Reason. And Alan's with me here tonight or today. And first of all, congratulations, Alan.
- [03:41]
A
Thank you, Greg. I'm humbled by this. And I appreciate your vote of confidence in me as well as from the board, of course, as well. But yeah, I'm also excited to use your word. Yeah, I'm also a little bit nervous about that.
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B
That's good.
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A
That's fine. I'm okay with feeling a little bit nervous. But I really think that what you started 33 years ago, you used to call it Christianity worth thinking about.
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B
Right. We still use that handle.
- [04:12]
A
Right, of course. And I think today and, and tomorrow more than ever, that's what is needed. And STR is going to be needed to help people think through their own convictions and to be able to share them, like you said, persuasively and graciously. And I just think about the landscape that's before us and how important STR is going to be in helping believers navigate that landscape.
- [04:35]
B
Yeah, part of me always wants to work myself out of a job. And I don't mean just like I'm doing now. I mean like work, Stand a reason out of a job. But we won't be out of a job until Jesus returns and gives us relief because of the challenges that the body of Christ has faced for thousands of years. And faithful people have been passing the baton ever since the beginning. Jesus passed it to disciples, Paul passed it to Timothy, faithful men passed it to others who will be able to teach others also, etc. 2nd Timothy 2:2. And of course, you're not a newcomer to Stand a Reason. You've been around a long time. We'll talk a little bit about that. But I realize a lot of folks may not really know, you know, for example, that I actually personally started discipling you before you were even on Stand a reason more than 20 years ago. So we go way, way back. And by the way, this is important for me to let people know because we didn't just pluck Alan off a tree. He's been in our garden, my garden, for a long, long, long time. And not even thinking about Alan, what initially, what became your role at Stand to Reason and now what is becoming your singular role as a successor to me at Stand to Reason? My heart was to do what I could do those many, many years ago, to invest myself in you and help you to grow. And hate to say it this way, it sounds like a comm. But be all you could be. Well, how does Paul put it? Present every man complete in Christ and particularly make my contribution in this particular area of Christian thinking and persuasion and the like. But you have been on our team quite a While we'll talk about that, you understand our mission, our vision. You were there when we formulated these things. And I just want everybody to know the most important thing about that to me about Alan is not only there's all these requirements that really have to be in place for anybody to follow in this particular kind of role, but the tremendous sense of safety that I feel with you, that I can deliver the responsibilities and the relationships on the team and outside of the team in our larger community to somebody that I have complete trust in that has the sense of gravity of the responsibility and the capability of meeting that challenge. So we talked about standard reason DNA and you might want to say more about that in a bit, but just there's nobody on the team that gets us more than you do. And folks, sometimes I talk to people who say we'd like to work for you and that's great and I'm flattered, but we don't take new people on very easily because of this issue. The standard recent DNA, they don't really get the unique kind of organization we are. I guess every organization is unique in a certain say they have their own personality, they have their own culture, as it were. But this is a kind of thing that you can't just sign up for. It's something you absorb over time. And the fact that you've been with us for a long time is. And me watching you and be in relationship with you, I've been able to see that stand a reason DNA flourish in you and watch you protect it all over the years as well. So, blah, blah, blah. I've been talking and talking and talking. I want, I want. Imagine that, huh?
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A
What you do best.
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B
Yeah. When I like to just have a chat with you now a little bit. Not just for those who don't know you at all, which I just assume everybody knows who you are. But you've been on the show a few times and I think you might have said him for me before, but for the most part you're doing your thing with standard reason, your number of responsibilities as a speaker and as a writer for us. So let me start here. I'm curious about what was your very first exposure or awareness of stand to reason?
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A
The first exposure was when you came and spoke at a church that I was attending and serving in the college ministry in Rolling Hills Covenant Church here in Los Angeles. My. Well, actually she was my fiance at the time, Jennifer. We were volunteering in the college ministry. The pastor there. The college pastor had invited you to come and speak to the college Group. Yeah. And you came and spoke there. And my fiance and I looked at each other and thought to ourselves, wow, okay, this is exactly the kind of thing that we have ourselves long for to learn, but also to try to pass on to the church. And part of the reason why we said that was because both of our testimonies were similar in the sense that we grew up in the church, sort of fell away from our faith and our convictions, but then through apologetics, were brought back to a recommitment to our faith in Christ. And so when we finally heard you speak and kind of, you were a person who embodied both sort of a rigorous intellectual life, but with just also passionate love for Jesus and that kind of. That combination of those two things, we're like, wow, that's exactly what we want to be a part of. So you spoke at the church. I don't know that we had any conversation at the time, but I just know that Jennifer and I looked at each other and said, man, once we get married and come back from our honeymoon, we got to get involved in what?
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First things first.
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Yeah, let's take care of business first. Yeah. When we come back, we really want to support this ministry. We want to be involved in some way. We didn't know how. Okay. But, yeah, so we went. We got married, and then it was 1998. Now we're married. We came back and we. I think I called the office because we wanted to start supporting standard reason financially. So I remember calling, and I think I just got a voicemail, and I just left a voicemail, said, hey, my name's Alan. We heard Greg speak at our church. We loved it. We want to support you guys financially. So, like, let us know how we can do that. And, yeah, we just want to promote what you're doing and make it happen more. Right. So I hung up. And then I think that later that evening, you called back, you know, personal phone call from Greg Coechlan. I'm like, what? I can't believe this is Greg.
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Well, you said those magic words, we
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want to support your money. Yeah, that's right. Actually, the funny thing is, the first thing you said was, hey, hey, Alan. This is Greg Koukl, and we're happy to receive your money. We'll gladly take it. Like, that's the first thing off the
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top of your head. Well, I call other people who are not donors, so just so folks know. But. But we were a younger organization. Actually, at that time, we were just, what, four years old or something and counting. And so I was Much. I was able to be in much more direct contact with people who are showing an interest in standard research. So. So I said, yeah, we're here.
- [12:19]
A
Yeah, you said, you're here. We'll happily take your money. And so of course, we decided to start supporting STR at that point. But then also in that phone call, you said, hey, why don't you just come to our staff meeting? We have a. I forgot when it was. It was Wednesdays, maybe, I think at the time, because I'd expressed some interest in helping support STR in other ways. So I remember showing up at the. I think it was a staff meeting or. I can't remember, but my wife and I both showed up. Steve Wagner also soon came after that.
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B
Right.
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And so we began volunteering almost immediately.
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B
Scott Klusendorf was on board at the time, probably.
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A
Yeah, that's right. That's right, yes. But, yeah, so we just started volunteering for standard reason at that point. Just, you know, making copies of cassette tapes.
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B
Cassettes?
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A
Yeah, cassette tape. Yeah. Peeling stickers off old cassette tapes, putting on new stickers, you know, answering phone calls, all the people complaining about things that. Controversial, things you had said that they didn't like about, you know, never hearing the voice of God and blah, blah,
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blah, like, yeah, yeah.
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So we just did whatever we could to help further the mission of Stand to Reason. It was because we had a deeply held belief that what Stand to Reason was doing was in line with our own mission and passion, and that's why we wanted to support it.
- [13:33]
B
You're such a great example of what I say frequently, and I imagine you do, too, when people ask the question, as they often do, how could we do what you do? Kind of thing. And a lot of folks don't realize the price that's involved with that over the years of developing the craft and whatever. But the first thing I always tell them is, bloom where you're planted. And that's what you were doing there. That was an opportunity you had that was consistent with your interests. And so you started helping us out right away. So what happened next?
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A
Well, we. So we started to do more events with you in the sense of going to events, running a product table, so on and so forth. And then at some point, and I can't remember exactly when, but it was soon, you started doing. You held a discipleship group for a number of us, Sean McDowell, myself, Todd, Steve Wagner, Amy, a bunch of other people. And we would come to your house. I can't remember if it was every
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B
other week or what yeah, something like that. But we met on a Wednesday night or whatever it was. And then we spent time and we had. That was a year long relationship, which was great. I'd had other groups in the past, I've others since then. But you are such a hungry young man spiritually, especially regarding the things that we do. And it just was a great fit. So Sean was there too, and I was in my Ma Phil program. That's why I happen to know Sean. And so wasn't there someone else thinking who is an Ma fell? Oh yeah, Todd. Okay. So. So yeah. So you were part of that group for a year and this was before. Well, you weren't doing anything for Santa Teresa. For what I was here.
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A
Right. We were just volunteering, supporting. I was a physical therapist. I was working in East LA at the time. And I remember thinking so often I felt gifted in speaking and teaching because I had done some of that work as a physical therapist and then I had done some teaching just in small groups at my church and just kind of here and there. And I always remember saying, and I don't know if I said it out loud to you, but at least I told my wife, I said I feel like a power tool being used as a paperweight in terms of. I felt like I had these giftings to be able to teach and knowledge and apologetics, but I couldn't use them. And so, you know, you just kept encouraging me to sort of bloom where you're planted. I don't think you said it that way at the time, but. And then what happened was there was a few instances where you had a scheduling conflict where I think there was like you were booked to speak in an event. Melinda had another opportunity for you to speak somewhere else, but at the same time. And then you guys offered me an opportunity to take one of those teaching times. So I did that. And it went okay. And then survived. Yeah. And then that happened a few more times. And I think that's when maybe the kind of clicked in your guys mind. Like hey, maybe Alan is somebody that we could use as a speaker.
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B
Right. Around this time I got married too. And there's a little kind of interesting thing there in terms of I think correct my memory because this. I just had my 28th anniversary and yours must have been right around about 28th wedding anniversary. Right, Right. So we've known each other almost 30 years. But did I think you found out I was getting married and you and Jen sent a gift, right?
- [17:12]
A
Yes, well, that was. This is before now. Now we're going back to 1998. Okay, so this is right after we just began volunteering that heard of getting married. We sent you a gift. And that prompted you to invite us to your wedding.
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B
Yes, that's right. And what was really cool is so they sent the gift. So he thought, well, let's invite him to the wedding. And then when they came to the wedding, they brought another gift, which is really, really great.
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A
Very strategic. That should have been included in your tactics book.
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But as things developed. This reminds me of Jesus comment, you're faithful in smaller things. You get bigger things, too. And that was so true of you, Alan. You are so faithful to do whatever we asked you to do, even if it was menial chores, so to speak, as a volunteer, going to events and manning the table and doing things. And it was back in the cassette tape days. And anything that was required. You were such a servant in your heart and such an eager student to be exposed to whatever you could be exposed to in this circumstance. Apologetics. And then it was great because then we saw these qualities in you. And I actually don't even remember how we turned the corner there. Do you recall those?
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Well, I think Kurt Swindoll was helping consult for us.
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That's right. Chuck's son, who was. Yeah.
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And then. So he and Melinda met with me for dinner one point and sort of proposed. What do you think about joining Stand to Reason? And at the time, I was thinking, this would be my dream job to work for str. So it was. I think they were thinking, there's no way Alan's going to turn this down. He. I think this is around 2003. But I did turn it down, which is crazy. And the reason is because I'm making a public confession here. I think I had a lot of pride in the fact that I had barely made it into physical therapy school, which is a very.
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B
Are you proud of that? Barely making it?
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A
Well, what I mean was physical therapy school was incredibly competitive at the time. It might still be.
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It's very hard course of study, too.
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A
And my wife actually also got accepted the same program, but she was the first student selected because she had the best gpa. I had the worst GPA of the people who got accepted. So I kind of made it in. And I mean, it was an incredibly difficult program, but I made it through. I did my internships. I got this great job at LA County, USC Medical Center. I was super proud of, like, all that I accomplished. And I thought to myself, wait a minute, STR is offered me to work with them. But it requires me to raise my own support for my own salary. And I've already done all this work in physical therapy, and now I'm like, you know, I think at this point I had moved to a different hospital. I was the manager at the department of the hospital, the physical therapy department there. And so I kind of, like. I think I just had a little bit of pride that I couldn't let go of.
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B
Like, that was a little beneath you, given what you'd accomplished.
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A
Yeah. Like, I'm going to now expect the church to provide for me for my salary when I've worked this hard to provide for myself. Not a healthy thinking. I'm just confessing that right here. But. But I'll tell you, like, I. So I said, you know, I don't think this is gonna work for me. And then a year transpired, and then you guys came back to me and said, are you out of your mind? Like. Like, you're made for us. We're made for you. Like, let's. Let's make this work somehow, you know? And so finally I said, yeah, you're right.
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B
This is.
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This is ridiculous. So I. Yeah, I committed at that point. I think in 2004 is when I started to raise, support and started to wean off of my work as a
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B
physical therapist 22 years ago. I mean, 22 years. So this is significant to me because. And I know since then you have developed so much as a communicator. In fact, you are busier than I am. You get more requests, and you have a lot of things that you have developed an expertise in. We're both kind of generalists, but you've done a deeper dive in a number of things that might be called hot topics. And so consequently, people are. They want you to speak for their conference or for their church or their retreat or whatever. But it's not just that. It's the way you communicate it and what you know and in the stand. A reason, tradition, knowledge, wisdom, character, the ambassador model. And that's made you very, very popular. We'll talk about some of the crazy experiences you've had over the years that I think gives you the kind of depth and breadth that commends you well to this position to be able to lead the organization in the next season. Now, you mentioned Jen, your wife, Jennifer, and tell us a little bit more about your family very briefly.
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A
Yeah, so I have two kids, one wife. My, my, my. I have a son who's 21 and a daughter who's 19. And my.
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B
Oh, close to the age of my own children because I remember we go on Alaska cruises and they were all little kids.
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A
They're all kids. Yeah, same, same, basically same ages. Yeah. But my, my, my wife, when she was pregnant with our first child, Nathan, and she eventually gave birth and we, she decided she wanted to homeschool. So she left her career as a physical therapist, wanted to be a full time mom and then eventually a homeschooling mom. So we homeschooled both of our kids for virtually most of their education and they both went to Summit and did a Summit gap year program.
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B
So.
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A
Yeah, yeah, of course we were really close to Summit, you know, probably a lot of people know. And anyway, so now they're back and they're working and. Yeah. As they do. And then my wife, after she completed homeschooling, took on a job at a classical private Christian school as a Latin teacher. Yeah. So as a homeschool mom, she had to learn Latin to teach Latin. But she ended up becoming more than just somebody, some mom who kind of knows a little bit of Latin. She became sort of like the community expert in Latin. So everybody came to her with questions and so that made her. Forced her to learn it more and then eventually, I guess, well enough to get a job as a Latin teacher, which is incredible. That's what she does.
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B
And you live in North County, San Diego. So here in Southern California. What I'm interested a little bit in is your own testimony. I know you're kind of raised in a Christian family. I mean, I know you're parents, your mom's gone now and know a little bit about that. But bring our listeners up to speed a little bit on that whole process.
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A
Yeah, my family is from a small Christian minority from Iraq known as Assyrians. So my parents, my brother, all my relatives, uncles, aunts, were all born mostly in Baghdad.
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B
The Assyrians are really nasty people, as I recall from the Bible.
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A
Yeah, yeah. If you've read any parts of the Old Testament, you'll probably recall the Assyrians are talked a lot about there. But unfortunately we were the bad guys, you know, so, you know, when you're the sworn enemies of Israel, you end up being the sworn enemies of God.
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B
Yeah, that's true. But see, now you're one of the good guys.
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A
Yeah, look at that.
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B
Wasn't it unusual though for your family to be. Did they live in Iraq and were you born in Iraq? I'm trying to remember. You went to England for a while?
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A
Yeah, they fled in the late 60s after my brother was born. My brother was Born in Iraq, they fled to the States. And then after they settled here in the States, I was born in Chicago. Not from where you were born.
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B
No. You're kidding. Yeah, that's where I was born.
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A
I know. Yeah. I remember you. Seeing you there as a little baby.
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B
Yeah. Well, Chicago's a great city. I missed that one. It took me a second for that to sink in. Chicago's a great place to be from it is
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it? Every once in a while.
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B
Yeah, on occasion, but. So I didn't know that about you, but I know your, your dad's a architect or engineer.
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A
He was a structural engineer.
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B
Structural engineer. He's got some major credits to his name.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Bahrain or someplace like that. Big, giant, unbelievable building.
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A
Yeah. His specialty was high rise buildings. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. So, and then. So tell me about the spiritual development then for you.
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A
Yeah, so I was going to say that because my parents belonged to a small Christian minority, of course they were Christian. And so they of course raised my brother and I as Christians. And I don't say this to fault them, but they didn't teach me Christianity in the way that, say, I would teach my kids now in terms of helping them develop a robust worldview, helping them to inoculate to the false ideas of the world. So although I was a Christian, I was baptized, probably it was junior high around. I was witnessing door to door soon after that. I mean, I was certainly passionate about my faith. We eventually moved to England for about four years because my dad's company moved us there. And it was my high school years there where I began to start asking questions. Do I really believe what I believe because of my own personal conviction, or is it just because my personal parents are Christians and that's why, you know, and at the same time, we didn't get really plugged into a real solid church at the time in England. So I wasn't really being fed a lot. And also just the general challenges of being in a secular school and being, you know, challenged with your peers to participate in things you shouldn't be participating in. All that just kind of came together and it caused me eventually to just walk away from my faith. I mean, people were even asking me flatly, how do you even know Jesus existed? Like, you believe in Jesus, you don't even know that he existed. What's your evidence for that? I mean, now I think about it, these were very basic questions. But at the time, I had no grounding to answer those kinds of questions. So by the time I finished high school, I had walked away from my faith we eventually moved back to the states. We moved to California. I started attending Cal State University in Long beach to study physical therapy. And I ended up befriending a professor of anatomy at that university who was a Christian. And he invited me to do research with him, like after school hours. So I was working on neural regeneration in his lab. We would sit there for hours, and he, of course we have conversations. And he discovered, yeah, I used to be a Christian. And so he started asking me, well, why aren't you a Christian anymore? I said, because there's no reason to be one. And he said, well, what if I introduce you to some reasons? I said, I mean, sure, go ahead.
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B
Wonderful Columbus style question.
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A
Yeah, I mean, there aren't any, but go ahead, give it your best shot. So he gave me a book called Scaling the Secular City.
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B
Oh, my goodness.
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A
By J.P. moreland.
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B
J.P. moreland.
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A
And he was actually friends with J.P. moreland. So he introduced me to J.P. moreland by taking me to an event of JP.
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B
Huh? I did not know this.
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A
Yeah. So he said, let's just read.
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B
Scaling was a great book, by the way. It was ahead of its time because there weren't many books around at that time when JP wrote Scaling. And it's a great title too, and it deals with a lot of the basic things. That's great.
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A
Yeah. So we decided to read the book together and discuss it. And so after about six months of reading that book and going to some of JP's presentations, I was blown away. I was like, wait a minute. I have never heard of apologetics, never heard of any of these kinds of arguments. I didn't realize there was evidence for Christianity. And I remember one day standing outside of this professor's office, waiting to go in for office hours to ask questions about anatomy and whatever, but as well as the fact that we would often talk about spiritual matters as well. And I remember thinking to myself, all right, whatever happens when I go into this room, I am not going to recommit my life to Christ. I just want to ask him some more questions. But I really, at that point, was convinced Christianity is true, but I just didn't want to submit to that. So, anyways, long story short, I go in for his office hours. It's my turn. We started conversing, and by the end of that meeting, I was praying to recommit my life to Christ. And so that whole process, that whole journey, caused me to say, why was I never equipped and trained or exposed to apologetics ever in my upbringing? And again, I'm not Trying to fault my parents, but, you know, the churches that I belonged to at the time, the Christians that I knew, I never was exposed to it. And so it became a passion of mine to say, man, how can we bring more exposure of apologetics to the church, to the rank and file? And so that's why when I met you at Rolling Hills Covenant Church in 1997, it was like, wow, this is exactly what I think the church needs. And which is why it was so easy for me to align my thinking, my passion, my mission with what STR was doing, because it just seemed like a perfect alignment there.
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B
Yeah, yeah. And what was the year when this took place? So you mentioned 97, but this conversion, was that a couple years before this recommitment, this one thing you vowed never to do?
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A
Yeah, it was probably. I had to double check, but it's probably around like 1992 or 3.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just before we started STR.
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A
Yeah, it's probably 1993.
- [31:09]
B
Started 93. But it's just been a whole process. And when I think about my own life and Stand a reason, and I don't know that we've talked about this before, but my suspicion is you see a place where you have arrived at or that you are at now, in the process of a journey, maybe is a better way of putting it, and you never had any ambition to be at this spot. Maybe a broad ambition like I did, to be useful, make my gifts available. And. And then you find yourself in a spot like that along the way. And for my sake, I would say I'm stunned, amazed, overwhelmed by the sovereignty of God, working all these details out. And this isn't really, you know, many people have heard me talk about the whole hearing from God thing, and my concern is about that whole movement is learning to hear the voice of God, etc. Etc. It's a textual one, it's a biblical one. This is just not taught the way people are characterizing it in the Bible. Actually, something else is going on entirely. And these verses are being pressed into service for a mistaken message. But the other thing that. One of the other things was that we don't need to have the Holy Spirit whispering in our ear, as it were, in order for God to get the work done, to get his job done. And our lives and standard reason is a testimony to that. Now, I'm not just basing my theological views on my own experience. I'm saying they're based on text, but that works itself out in experience. And we can see God's Sovereign hand. And I know there are many, many times where you said, I'm not ever going anywhere else. I'm so happy here. This is my dream. And we've had a number of people that were on our team that eventually moved on to their own enterprises. J. Warner Wallace, Brett Kunkel, Scott Klusendorf, Steven. And you know, that's great. I don't want to lose any of them really, but. Because there were such tremendous talents. But it was great to see how God took them the next step in his sovereign way as he's working through them. But. But with you, I knew I don't have to worry about Alan. He's happy here. And he didn't want to start his own enterprise, you know, and so this is another irony, it seems to me. I don't know if you want to talk about this or not, but the irony, because it isn't as if you had ambitions for this particular job that you're now being groomed for and moving into over the next year or so.
- [34:13]
A
Yeah, that's true. I never had any ambition. And really, even up until the last five years, I never thought this was even a consideration. But I knew that it didn't matter. I came to realize I had certain giftings in knowledge and teaching and I knew I could use those gifts in several possible ways. But to serve, stand to reason using those gifts and to serve the church and the Kingdom of God in this way was. Is a perfect alignment. And I would have been content doing that. But of course, I also, I think the only ambition I really had, and if ambition is the right word, is to ensure that whoever takes over STR afterwards continues to maintain and protect the DNA and the vision and mission of STR more than anything.
- [35:03]
B
Yeah.
- [35:04]
A
And so that's probably what caused me to think about, well, you know what? Maybe this is something that I need to step into.
- [35:09]
B
Yeah. When we approached you with it, actually the first couple times we talked about it, it was clear that this isn't. You were happy where you're at. You had no ambitions for this. And I actually am glad for that because people who want authority, sometimes this leads to bad places and people who are itching for control or leadership. That's not always true, obviously.
- [35:36]
A
Of course.
- [35:36]
B
Ye. And in my case, I wasn't itching for that. It's just what happened in the process of me being faithful. And God added more and more to that and more and more people. And then this became this much bigger thing than I ever anticipated. But I think the same thing is True of you. And as time went on then, I remember distinctly we're really getting to a point of seriously talking about this, because you said five years ago, before five years ago, this would not have even been on your radar. And I think that's when I started getting senile, like, right. Like 71 or thereabouts. And you said, well, I don't know how long.
- [36:18]
A
Maybe we should make a change here.
- [36:22]
B
But I remember you telling me, and what you said is, you need to know, Greg, that I am not campaigning for this job. Now, there are other people on the team, because everybody on this team really loves you, Al. And you know this. And that's important, I think, for everybody listening who finds him, who considers himself part of our community, an organic part of standard reason, that not only was our board unanimous in this decision, but our team was unanimous.
- [36:55]
A
Yeah.
- [36:55]
B
And we didn't poll the team, but I just know everybody was rooting for you almost too much behind the scenes and whatever.
- [37:05]
A
It was a little uncomfortable at points.
- [37:07]
B
Yeah. And so you made a point of telling me, because you function like an older brother to them. You're the senior apologist. You've been around for longer than, I think just about anybody. Even Amy. I don't know. Amy maybe came a couple years after you did, not much longer after.
- [37:23]
A
But you started. Yeah, I think she started. Well, I was certainly volunteering with STR before she came.
- [37:28]
B
And she was in that discipleship group.
- [37:29]
A
Yeah, I think she started working soon after I did.
- [37:32]
B
Yeah.
- [37:32]
A
Or around at the same time.
- [37:33]
B
But in any event, I mean, being around and then your natural leadership ability, where you began, just as an older brother, that's the way they saw you just took care of things. You took care of things for me, too, you know, and you still are, and I could just count on you for that. And you had a kind of paternalistic attitude about the group. Not overbearing, obviously, but I'm going to take care of my friends, you know, and that, to me, is a very important quality. So when we talked and given that all of these things were kind of coming together, it just made so much sense to us. And then I talked with you about more specific ways about taking on this role. You said, you need to know, especially with the banter from the team, we're going, rah, rah, rah, Alan. Right. Which embarrassed you a little bit, made you uncomfortable, and I completely understand that. But it was sweet that. In one sense, it was very sweet that they were on your side so much. But you said, you need to know that I'm not campaigning for this. I'm not looking for. I'm happy where I'm at. Don't listen to them. But you said if you, Greg, think it's good for stand to reason that I succeed you at your post, I'd be willing to do it. And in my view, Al, that's the perfect attitude. Is the perfect attitude. And that kind of sealed everything for me coming together. Of course, the whole process took some time administratively and whatever, but to bring us to this point now. And part of the reason I'm talking this way is because I want others to see kind of the inside workings, to have the confidence that stand to reason is being delivered into good hands and younger hands. Alan was born the year I became a Christian. That's how I keep track of how old he is. And so was Amy too. So you guys are the same age. But it was such a significant issue for me that I not leave my kids as orphans. I wasn't. And I mentioned this with the board when we were talking about transition. I'm not leaving if I can't leave and feel that I am delivering these people I love so much on our team and also the broader community into the hands of somebody fully capable and having the same filial sense about the family and the same paternalistic commitment and everything. And so all of that really was coming together with you. So this is really great.
- [40:29]
A
Well, just to say it's a tremendous encouragement to me that you have that belief in me and the confidence that you can, like you said, pass this on to somebody who you can trust. So it means the world to me. So I appreciate that.
- [40:42]
B
Yeah, well, I've had 22 years experience there. That's on standard reason. We were together in the discipleship relationship even before that group that you mentioned with Sean and Amy, etc. So we got about 20 minutes left. And what I thought might be good to do here at. After we've had kind of this personal glimpse, let's talk a little bit about some of the areas that you have developed an expertise in. And these are the content things that you bring to the table, as it were. So this is really a different element. That is one thing to be able to be dad, so to speak, for the team and protect the team and protect the organization. But you're actually writing two books right now. You're on contract with as a Harvest.
- [41:31]
A
Yeah, the one I'm in contract with currently is with Harvest House.
- [41:33]
B
Yeah.
- [41:34]
A
And that. Yeah.
- [41:35]
B
And then you have another one that you've Been talking with Zonderman about. Yeah.
- [41:38]
A
So I don't know. Yeah, I haven't decided when and with who I'll sign with that, but I want to. But now that this whole president electing has come up, I'll probably hold off on just a little bit of time before I sign any other deals. But, yeah, I want to finish this first book with Harvest House first.
- [41:55]
B
And this book is on, I think, gender identity. Right.
- [41:58]
A
It's on transgenderism.
- [41:59]
B
Yeah.
- [41:59]
A
So it'll probably be called the Transgender Dilemma. In fact, Harvest House and I were recently chatting about the topic. I'm sorry, the title, but, yeah, that's what it's going to be over.
- [42:13]
B
How is it that you kind of migrated to this whole area? This is one of the areas where you've done a really deep dive in, and you've written a number of missives that people can find on our website that go out. I have one at actually right here, it says alive son or dead daughter, question mark. And that just was recent. Maybe we'll talk about it. But this is a kind of charge and challenge that the kind of leftist transgender movement is foisting upon parents who are troubled about this transgender ideation and everything. But how did that. There is, I think, in terms of the broad ideology and politics of it, there's a kinship with that in the whole gay movement and the LGBT thing. Is that how you. And what is the genesis of that in terms of your interests?
- [43:10]
A
Yeah, that's precisely how it happened. When I think back to my work as a physical therapist working in East LA at that time, getting married to my wife, both her and I were having a lot of friends and family relationships with people who identify as gay and lesbian. And so at the time, this was a very big deal. Right. It was like the, you know, the pro LGBT movement, but really mostly focused on homosexuality, was becoming a big deal. And there was a lot of questions about, well, how do you navigate conversations and relationships with friends and family who identify as gay or lesbian? And one of the things that I had to learned was how to do that myself, because I was, you know, at work, I had friends, mentors, people coming to my house who identified as gay and lesbian. And in those relationships, you're naturally having to ask yourself, well, how do I handle this? What if they ask me this? You know, I was invited to this and that, and, you know, they came over to my house and wanted to do this. Like, what do you say?
- [44:14]
B
Sure.
- [44:16]
A
So over the years, my wife and I began to develop, you know, principles that were helping us to navigate those situations. And so I sort of started to move into that space to speak and to write on the subject of homosexuality and how to sort of navigate those relationships in addition to the apologetics of the topic as well.
- [44:33]
B
So you're working through all of these things in real time with real relationships.
- [44:37]
A
Oh, yeah, exactly.
- [44:38]
B
Which is really true of so much of what we do at scr. You know, I think people realize we're not in the ivory tower. We're down here, you know, in the streets, boots on the ground, and engaging the people and working through how to do so in a noble way that honors Christ. I was talking with somebody else about effectiveness, and, you know, this just as part of standard reason, our effectiveness is not really measured by our results. My responsibility as an apologist or witness for Christ or whatever is to communicate the truth graciously, truthfully, accurately, and as persuasively as possible. And if I do that, I dump my job.
- [45:27]
A
You're being faithful.
- [45:28]
B
I'm being faithful. Our audience of one, we often talk about that as part of our DNA, and people sometimes respond good or maybe respond bad. That's not the measure of our effectiveness, but rather the faithfulness that we bring to the table.
- [45:44]
A
Yeah. So that topic is really what got me involved in the sexuality sort of conversation. So I wrote a ton and spoke a ton on that. But eventually, as, you know, culture shifted and eventually transgender ideology became a bigger deal. It was sort of a natural transition, pardon the pun, to move into that space and start speaking about, writing about, and thinking about transgender ideology and then also asking the same questions. How do you navigate conversations and relationships with friends and family who identify as transgender or non binary area or whatever? So that's what got me into it. And then, yeah, so that's why homosexuality and transgender ideology are two topics that I've focused on for.
- [46:29]
B
So you have a two pronged aspect to this that really applies to all of these things.
- [46:34]
A
Truth and compassion.
- [46:35]
B
Yeah. Truth and compassion. Right?
- [46:37]
A
Yeah. So my talk titles have been Homosexuality Truth and Compassion or Transgender Ideology. Truth and Compassion. And it's because. Well, I think it really models after the way Jesus comported himself. Full of grace and full of truth is the way the Gospel of John describes Jesus. And so I want to help equip believers how to bring the truth into a conversation or into a relationship with someone who identifies as lgbt. But also how can we have a compassionate engagement? How can we lovingly engage these people with the truth? And part of this is to combat the false Dichotomy. That's often presented as the only two options, which people who don't hold to our convictions, like progressive Christians or just non Christians, will say, well, you either are going to love this LGBT person, which means you affirm their homosexual desires and their behavior and their transgender ideologies, so and so, or you don't affirm that, and then you hate them and reject them. You know, so. But you can't keep your biblical convictions if you're going to, you know, affirm their transgender ideology. So there's this idea that you have to either love them and compromise your convictions or stick with your biblical faith and reject them and hate them. And I was always bothered by that because I'm like, those aren't the only two options. There's a third option. The third option is, yes, you can. I know you don't like this word. Lean into your relationship with your friend or family member who's LGBT and maintain your biblical convictions. Like, don't compromise your faith. Now, is that going to be more complicated and more messy? Oh, yeah, for sure. But it seems to be the way the Bible talks about how we relate to people. Right. Anyways, so that sort of third way or third option really can apply both to the subject of homosexuality as well as transgender.
- [48:37]
B
So there's all of those areas that are very just right up to date with the cultural trends right now and conversations and stumbling blocks for Christians dealing with culture. But then there's another area that an incredibly deep dive in that's just as kind of controversial and I think appropriate for you because you're Middle Eastern.
- [49:02]
A
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- [49:04]
B
So talk about that a little bit.
- [49:05]
A
Yeah. Well, I remember actually at one point stand a reason. You were. We were kind of thinking, well, who can be someone who can sort of focus in on the subject of Islam? You know, 9, 11 had happened. And so, you know, kind of wondering about that. So, yeah, you're right. Everybody's like, well, Alan, you're from the Middle East. You're the one most likely to kind of understand this sort of culture.
- [49:24]
B
Aaron looks like the terrorist, so he got the job.
- [49:29]
A
Yeah. So I actually did some advanced studies at Biola on Islam in the middle of my MA when I was studying my apologetics program there. And, yeah, so I focused a lot on Islam, and I've been going to the Middle east for years, working with Egyptian Christians there. I take Christians to mosques here in the United States, and we engage the imams and other Muslims at the mosque. And this has just been not only a lot of fun. But, well, I should say, not only has it been good kingdom work, but it's been a lot of fun. Okay.
- [50:02]
B
Yeah.
- [50:03]
A
Because.
- [50:04]
B
Cart before the horse.
- [50:05]
A
Yeah. And part of the reason is because Muslims are this huge demographic of people who are perfectly comfortable talking about religious matters.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah. They love talking about it.
- [50:15]
A
Yeah. You walk up to an average American in the mall and ask them to talk about Jesus, they're going to think you're a creep. Get lost. You know, you go up to a Muslim, I mean, literally, it could be a stranger and say, and I've done this. Hey, would you be open to talking about God and the Bible and Jesus? And they're like, like, sure, you know?
- [50:32]
B
Well, you actually wrote a book, a booklet that we offer at Standard Reason. We have a series of ambassadors guides of different types, and one of them is on Islam. And there are two things that stick out for me when I think of that. I'm looking at the clock here. We just got about eight more minutes. But the one is in that book, there's a fabulous argument that we can't go into it now. We don't have time. But that has to do with the issue of authority that really is effective to stop Muslims in their tracks and to get them thinking. And if I'm not mistaken, I think this is the argument that our friend Abdu Murray, former Muslim and now Christian, I can't remember the name of his organization.
- [51:23]
A
Oh, Embrace the truth.
- [51:24]
B
Embrace the truth. There you go. He just couldn't shake this. Yeah. And it has to do with leveraging what the Quran says about the Bible.
- [51:34]
A
That's right.
- [51:35]
B
Against the charge that the Bible has been corrupted. That's in that booklet. There's another anecdote about that book, that little green book that says an Ambassador's Guide to Islam.
- [51:45]
A
Right.
- [51:46]
B
Do you remember the little quirky thing that happened with that green book in the title?
- [51:50]
A
Oh, you mean how it got sold or promoted at the mosque?
- [51:54]
B
Yeah.
- [51:55]
A
Oh, yeah. It was a few years ago. We got a call here at the office and someone had said, hey, is there a guy there named Alan Schliemann? And they're like, well, yeah, he works here. They're like, well, we want to know, like, who is this guy? Because he's a Muslim, but he just seems to be making really bizarre arguments in favor of Islam. And so we're like, wait, no, Alan's not a Muslim. Anyways, long story short, we found out that but a mosque here in Southern California had purchased a whole bunch of these books called the Ambassador Guides to Islam. Because if you look at the COVID and you don't really open the book, it kind of looks like a book that might be pro Islam.
- [52:39]
B
Yeah, Clickbait.
- [52:40]
A
But I mean, that was not our intention. I mean, I'm thinking about who's the one who designed the COVID It wasn't me, but whoever did, like, it just looks like it's written in an Islamic or an Arabic font, but it's just the Ambassador's Guide to Islam. And it's about being an ambassador for Jesus to Muslims.
- [52:55]
B
Yeah, yeah. And it contains this argument in it too, right?
- [52:58]
A
Yeah. So this mosque had purchased a whole bunch of them and was passing them out at like some outreach event. And so some non Muslim, non Christian person I think had picked, had gone to the mosque event, picked up the book, read it and thought, how is this pro Islam? It's. It's rebutting Islam.
- [53:16]
B
Yeah.
- [53:17]
A
And so that's why he had called the office.
- [53:20]
B
Yeah. In the Jesus movement, we would call that mbto Must be the Lord, you know, one of those kinds of things. Now in addition to that, you've studied at the Discovery Institute in Seattle.
- [53:32]
A
Oh yeah.
- [53:33]
B
There are special courses on intelligent design.
- [53:37]
A
Yeah, that was a two week intensive.
- [53:39]
B
Intensive, that's right. But that was just supplementing your own study at that time. Amy has done it as well, I think Katie, and our team is doing something with them. And Amy is going to be down in Oxford with Stephen Meyer. Not Oxford, but Cambridge. Cambridge later in the summer with more things. But it's just, you know, you've got your master's degree in apologetics and then we've just, we do encourage everybody in this regard. We want you to keep moving forward. And so we try to find budget to make it possible for our speakers to get to do these deep dives. Take the time, fly out, spend the time, take the courses, whatever it happens to be. And the bioethics is another area. You've done a lot of work within change. Didn't you do a thing at university somewhere where you just said it was basically, I'm the pro lifer, I'll take on all comers type thing. What was that?
- [54:30]
A
Yeah, it was a few of those, actually. Well, I've done it at USC medical school where there was a pro life Christian at the school in medical school there and she invited me to come and speak there and the school said as long as Alan's willing to debate, the entire medical school will allow him to speak on pro life. So I got like, I think they gave me 15 or 20 minutes to make a defense for the pro life position. And then I had to accept any challenge taken from any of the med students.
- [54:58]
B
Right, right.
- [54:59]
A
So I've done that there. But I've also at Central Michigan University, I did a similar thing, another secular university where it's sort of like, yeah, you get 20 minutes to make your case and then you got to debate anybody who's willing to debate you kind of thing.
- [55:11]
B
Well, we could talk and talk and talk. And I think just I'm glad to showcase you a little bit to those especially who don't know you at all and to those who know you but don't know all of these things. In fact, I learned a few new things here, and I'm actually convinced that STR's most fruitful years are ahead of us. I'm so grateful that you're on this journey with us and continue in a new capacity and that the rest of the listeners in our community are on board with us, too. Nothing's changing about Standard. And by the way, I'm not hanging out my cleats right away. I can't wait to get my gold watch and my pen set and then say sayonara. No, I'm going to be continuing on in the life of this organization for a while. Just I'll be slowing down. Your metaphor, passing the baton, I think, was so helpful because the one runner slows down, the baton is passed, and then the other runner speeds up. And that's what's happening here. I've been so grateful to serve alongside with you for all of these years. And I'll be a counselor in a certain sense. So you'll be my boss at some point in the future.
- [56:23]
A
Won't that be fun? Yes.
- [56:24]
B
Yeah, right. But Alan has been a great colleague, a good friend and a faithful disciple for all of these years, and it is exciting to pass the baton now to Alan and to Ed as this next year or so in transition, somebody asked me, how long is it going to be? And I said, well, it's a bigger than the lunchbox and smaller than a refrigerator or however that saying goes. You know, we're still working on that. What's best for the organization.
- [56:56]
A
Yeah, sure.
- [56:57]
B
That's what I want. That's what you want. And so that's the way it's going to work out. But stay with us, folks. And I'm still going to be doing the show for a long time, I'm sure. And though. Even though I'll be working for Alan as the transition continues, but Str is in good hands now and it will continue to be in good hands as God does new things through us. So thank you for listening, friends. Greg Kokel here and Alan Schliemann for Stand the Reason. Give him heaven, friends. Bye bye now.
- [57:36]
A
Sam.