If Jesus Is the Firstborn, Does That Mean He’s Part of Creation?

Summary

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Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast with Greg Koukl

Episode: If Jesus Is the Firstborn, Does That Mean He’s Part of Creation?
Date: December 24, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode, airing on Christmas week, centers around an important theological question: What does it mean that Jesus is called the “firstborn” of creation? Host Greg Koukl addresses a listener’s question about whether the term “firstborn” in Colossians 1:15 implies that Jesus is a created being, rather than the eternal Son of God. Interwoven with this central discussion are brief ministry updates, a review of Christmas movies, and an encouragement to persevere in faith even when God's path is difficult.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Ministry Update and Christmas Reflections

Greg opens the show with holiday greetings and ministry updates before launching into the main theological call.

• Reality Student Apologetics Conferences: This year, Stand to Reason hosted 13,000 students and leaders across six cities, with upcoming events in Dallas (Feb.), Philadelphia (Mar.), and Los Angeles (Apr.).
• STR University and Outposts: 22,500 students enrolled, with 169 church-based outposts active in 38 states and 12 countries.

“The most important generation is always the next generation.”
— Greg Koukl [08:53]

• End-of-Year Giving & Sharing Resources: Special “Share the Story” gift sets offered to supporters.

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2. Listener Question: "Firstborn" and the Divinity of Christ

[13:26] Caller Jane from Reno poses the main question: Does calling Jesus "the firstborn of creation" mean he is part of creation?

Greg begins a detailed response, covering:

• The Greek Term “Prototokos”

• “Firstborn” (Greek: prototokos) isn’t about literal birth order or creation order; it’s a “term of art,” meaning a specific, technical term within biblical/theological circles denoting preeminence or supremacy, not “first created.”
• Scriptural examples where “firstborn” clearly does not mean the first one born:
  • Genesis 41:51: Manasseh called firstborn because he was born first, but…
  • Jeremiah 31:9: Ephraim is called “my firstborn,” even though Manasseh was older.
  • Psalm 89:27: Refers to David (the youngest of his brothers) as “the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.”

“He was the youngest, but I will make him the firstborn. How can you make the youngest the oldest? You can’t.”
— Greg Koukl [22:16]

• Context of Colossians 1

[22:37–29:39]

• After describing Jesus as “image of the invisible God” (a statement of divinity), Paul calls Him “firstborn of all creation.”
• The immediate context clarifies:
  • Verse 16: “For by Him all things were created… all things have been created through him and for him.”
  • This means everything that is created was created by Jesus—He can’t both create all things and be, Himself, one of the created things.
• The same logic is reinforced by John 1:3:

  “All things came into being through him, and apart from him nothing has come into being that has come into being.”

• Thus, Jesus is the uncreated Creator—God Himself.

“If Jesus was the firstborn in the sense that he was the first one created, then how could the next verse say that through him all things were created? ... That would be a contradiction.”
— Greg Koukl [27:30]

• The proper translation (and how some modern versions render it): “supreme over creation,” “preeminent,” or “first in rank.”

• How to Respond to Non-Trinitarians

• Jehovah’s Witnesses and other non-Trinitarians misuse this verse; to insist “firstborn” means “created” creates contradictions in the text.
• The “firstborn” title, in both Old and New Testaments, points to greater significance, honor, or authority—not origin.

“The word prototokos is not used to mean ‘first one created.’ It’s a term of art that means ‘preeminent one’—which is the kind of description we see in verses 16 through 20.”
— Greg Koukl [31:36]

• How to Reconcile the Use:
  • The context of Paul’s argument is about Christ’s supremacy and divinity, not sequencing in creation.
  • Old Testament precedent shows “firstborn” being applied to those who were not literally first in birth order, but who had preeminence (e.g., David, Ephraim).

• Main Takeaway

“He [Jesus] is divine, uncreated. And because of his role becoming a man… He now is the center of everything. He’s the first, the foremost, the preeminent one, the prototokos, the firstborn.”
— Greg Koukl [28:59]

• Don’t get tangled in literalistic readings of “firstborn.” Check the context, original language, and biblical precedent.

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3. Christmas Movie Recommendations & Nativity Accuracy

[35:56–51:18]

• Movies:
  • “The Nativity Story” — emotionally powerful, though some minor historical inaccuracies.
  • “The Christ Child” (LDS-produced, available on YouTube)—commended for its historical detail, especially regarding lodgings in Bethlehem and the timeline of the Magi’s visit.
    • Key correction: Jesus was not born in an “inn;” the Greek word kataluma refers to an overcrowded upper room in a home—so Jesus was born in a lower part of a house, likely where animals were kept.

“There were no inns in Bethlehem… kataluma doesn’t mean inn… It’s the upper room… [Jesus] was put up in a house, the house of their relatives…”
— Greg Koukl [45:14]

• Emphasizes the emotional difficulty and faith required of Mary and Joseph.
• Even God’s chosen path is often not easy for those involved:

“Just because it’s God’s divine purpose doesn’t mean it’s not going to be hard for those participating.”
— Greg Koukl [55:31]

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4. Apologetics Insight: The Verification of Mary’s Message

[51:20–54:45]

• The angel’s message to Mary about both her own miraculous pregnancy and Elizabeth being with child serves as an apologetic sign.
  • Mary's claim is private and unverifiable; Elizabeth's pregnancy provides external, public confirmation.

“[Mary] can demonstrate…that there’s truth to her claim that she is a virgin giving birth… God gives a private revelation to Mary, but also enough information so she can demonstrate, apologetics if you will, that there’s truth to her claim.”
— Greg Koukl [53:00]

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• "The most important generation is always the next generation."
  — Greg Koukl [08:53]

• "Firstborn doesn't mean the first one birthed. It means the preeminent one, the preeminent one."
  — Greg Koukl [22:16]

• “[Jesus] can’t create everything that was ever created if he himself was created… He has to be uncreated. He’s the uncreated creator, which is, there’s only one uncreated creator. And who’s that? God.”
  — Greg Koukl [28:33]

• “If your friend wants to go that direction, he’s got to affirm a contradiction in the text.”
  — Greg Koukl [32:20]

• “Just because it’s God’s divine purpose doesn’t mean it’s not going to be hard for those participating.”
  — Greg Koukl [55:31]

• "[Mary] can demonstrate... there's truth to her claim that she is a virgin giving birth... God gives a private revelation to Mary, but also enough information so she can demonstrate, apologetics if you will, that there's truth to her claim."
  — Greg Koukl [53:00]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Ministry Updates & Events: [00:28–13:26]
• Listener Question (Firstborn): [13:26–32:28]
• Summary of "Firstborn" Answer: [32:25–32:59]
• Christmas Movie Recommendations: [35:56–51:18]
• Nativity Historical Notes & Apologetics Insight: [51:20–54:45]
• Encouragement for Difficult Faith Journeys: [54:45–End]

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Conclusion & Tone

Greg Koukl approaches the episode with a warm, pastoral, and intellectually engaging tone, blending solid exegesis and apologetics with practical insights for Christians facing both doctrinal challenges and personal struggles. He encourages listeners to examine biblical terms in context, equips them for apologetic encounters, and ends with thoughtful Christmas encouragement.

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Transcript

[Greg Koukl]

All right, friends, welcome to Christmas week. We are well into it. In fact, by the time you read this, it'll probably or listen. If you listen promptly, you'll be listening on Christmas Eve. And so best Christmas to you. Happy Christmas. I like to say people sometimes wonder why I use the, the British characterization of the greeting. And it just seems to me that it gets people's attention a little bit better. I'm not trying to be clever. I'm trying to be meaningful. And you know, the Merry Christmas is sweet. I mean, that's the classic reading. And it's not used very frequently anymore, certainly among commercial enterprises, but nevertheless, it still is a little bit, I guess, for lack of a better word, stale. And I like to brighten meaningful things up a little bit more if we're using language that maybe doesn't draw attention to it the way it ought to. So I just say, much of the time I'll just say Happy Christmas because it seems to stand out a little bit more. In any, any event, Happy Christmas this week to you. And if you're listening on Christmas Eve, that means you probably got all your Christmas stuff that done. And, and that's great. I haven't. I'm still pounding away and whatever, but things are largely in order order for me. And anyway, the just wanted to make an observation. Your year of end gifts, or I should say end of year gifts, have been coming in this month and it's just wonderful to see your response. I just want to say thank you from my heart for the kindness that so many have shown to str. We have still a long way to go here in the next week. Our team at Stand to Reason has been working really, really hard all year long. We don't plan to let up at all next year. And that's why we want to end this year strong. And that's where we need your help. And by the way, just a few things that we've accomplished this year. You know, we had 13,000 students and leaders in our Reality student apologetics conferences in six cities this past season. And this is probably in terms of public presentations where we go out and do events and churches and all that other stuff. This is the only thing that we do that's our own Stand A Reason sponsored. And what's great about Reality is that none of these. Well, there might be a few exceptions, but I was going to say none of these kids are forced to go. They go because they want to. Sometimes grandparents or parents or youth leader will try to cajole or drag somebody along who's maybe a tire kicker, but I am convinced that many of them become Christians. But for the most part, these kids are thrilled to be there. And which reminds me, as long as I'm mentioning this, we have three more events coming up next year that finishes out this season. That would be Dallas, Texas, February 20th and 21st. And that will be live streamed, incidentally. So if you can't make any of these, you can livestream the Dallas, Texas event. And last count, that was a week ago, we had 1,234 people signed up of 2009 23. When I say 2009 23, that's every chair in the building that can be set aside for a person, overflow, etc. 8 1/2 weeks out. We're almost halfway there. So you might want to jump on this. In fact, you might want to make this a Christmas gift. Not too late to do that. Hey, kids, we're going to reality. Maybe reality in Texas, maybe in Philly on March 13th and 14th, maybe in Los Angeles April 24th and 25th. But we're going to reality, all right. And by the way, speaking of Philly, we have 437 signed up as of a week ago. I don't have the most recent numbers of 1350. Now we're 11 and a half weeks out. That was actually 12 weeks out when I got that number. 12 and a half. And we're one third full. So far we have sold out everything except for Atlanta because Atlanta in September was our first shot at that city. So we characteristically don't fill that event up when we first start. But it was pretty full. Seattle was sold out four weeks in advance. Minneapolis was sold out 10 days in advance. I should say that's over 4,000 students. And I fully expect that. Texas in February 21st and 20th and 21st, Philly March 13 and 14 and finally Southern Cal, which we usually have in the fall. Now we're having in the spring. And a much bigger venue than we had before is going to be sold out for April 21st and 25th. So jump on board as soon as possible. If you're thinking about going, grab those tickets. I think there's still in some cases there's an early bird special. But anyway, if it's full price, it's still worth it. It's a bargain at twice the price, really. So. Or three times. Right. The place to get information about all of that would be realityapologetics.com just go there and you'll get all the information, especially the information about the Dallas event that live streams. Because if you can't make the trip, understandably, you can still get together with your family, with a group, or with, you know, your a church, a large. A Bible study in a larger church group. We've got different arrangements for different size groups, so check that out. But anyway, this is what we've been doing, and these are kids that we are passing the baton to because the most important generation is always the next generation. In addition to the 13,000 students last season, this season is going to be more because we're selling out so much and we have some larger venues as well. We've also established 169 guided groups in local churches. These are called outposts. We have them in 38 states. And this next year, my personal goal is that we have one representing in every single state. So if your state's not represented, you can go to online str.org on the outpost section. There's a map. You may be the very first person in your state to have an outpost. In any event, 169, 38 states, 12 countries, a lot of countries left. We'd like to see a lot more climb on board with these discipleship groups that are stand to reason oriented. All right? We also have 22,500 students in STR University. This is just the tip of the iceberg of what we've been doing this year and how we've been faithfully using the gifts that so many of you have given and many are giving this month. All right? And that's why your generosity to us this next week as we close out the year gives Christians literally around the world what they need most. And that's confidence to stand firm in their biblical convictions and the courage to speak with truth and with grace to those who are considering Christianity and even to those who disagree, who, with a good, proper response from believers, substantive, thoughtful, persuasive, gracious, maybe move to consideration of Christianity. So that's what we're looking at. And when you give this week, you're going to help other believers in our community to share the love and truth of Christ with boldness, with wisdom, with clarity. Because that's what confidence breeds. And as my thanks for your gift this month, we're going to send you a gift that's going to help you, especially right now, because I'm convinced that a significant harvest is right at our doorstep. And I see this everywhere I go, everywhere, every church I go into, every organization, leader I talk to, they're all reflecting the same thing. Something's happening. And your generous gift right now will send more well trained workers into the field and we hope you as well, because the gift we'll send you as my thanks for your gift this month is what we're calling the Share the Story set so that you can play an active role in the harvest that's passing the truth on to so many others. And that set Share the Truth set would be the Story of Reality. Now, you might have this already. I hope you do, but that means it's one more thing you could give away to somebody else. We're going to send you that. We're going to send you a bonus reality Quick reference guide that has a summary of all the Story of Reality information on it to help you communicate with other people more effectively. And we're going to give you two copies of a section of the Story of Reality that focuses in on Jesus and the Gospel. So it's a shorter read, but it's a portion of the Story of Reality. The title is the Story of why God Died and Came to Life Again. And this is something that you can just give away in your conversations with others to get them thinking about Jesus now, today, at a time when, look, so many people are seeking answers and the hunger is there like I've never seen since the Jesus movement. I'm asking you to simply prayerfully consider making a generous gift to Stand to Reason. Help us to train others, more Christian ambassadors to bear witness for Jesus. And maybe this is the first time that you've ever given to stand a reason. You've been listening to the show, going to our website, not just this show, but Amy and I and Strsk or some of the other guys podcasts, Red Pen Logic, for example. Maybe this is the first time that you're thinking about giving because of what you've been given. Well, that's great. We'd love to have you on board as a partner financially with str. And if God has blessed you abundantly this year, and that's been the case for some of you, not only financially but also through what you've received from Stand to Reason, then give abundantly. That's my challenge. And if he hasn't blessed you abundantly but modestly, well, then you can still give modestly if you're receiving from us as well. So it's up to you. Everything you give counts towards finishing this year strong and entering next year with good momentum. So please consider supporting STR to make an eternal difference in other people's lives. And I'm so grateful for all of your kindness. Every time I come into the office and I see the gals processing the gifts, I think, all right, let's keep going. We have quite a ways to go here in this next week. It's the biggest week of the year in this and we'd like to hear from you. So thanks in advance for that. All right, let's see. We actually have a call. All right. I say actually have because we're off schedule with this broadcast, but I think we did make some notification that we'll be doing a live show or two of them actually today. 855-243-9975 is the number if you want to and talk with me. You'll chat with Amos first and famous Amos and. And then she'll pass you on to me. So let's go to Reno, Nevada and Jane. Hello, Jane.

[Jane]

Hi, Greg. How you doing today?

[Greg Koukl]

I'm doing good. I'm looking forward to having a week or so off and being with my family and catching up on odds at the home and enjoying my season. So thank you.

[Jane]

You're welcome. That's wonderful to have family time, isn't it? Greg, I had a question for you. Maybe first, I want to give a promotion to your stru courses. I've taken over 20 of them myself.

[Greg Koukl]

Oh, wow.

[Jane]

And if anybody out there has thought about it, I really encourage them to give it a try. They're not overwhelming and they're presented in smaller size chunks so you can get to a break point and if you need to, you know, come back a little bit later, you can still just pick it up again and finish it. Yeah, they're just great courses. I've really enjoyed the ones I've taken.

[Greg Koukl]

Yeah, that's great. I'm glad to hear that. We've tried to make it very accessible, in other words, substantive. So in a short period of time, relatively short when you think of a class, a relatively short period of time, people are getting good substance, well delivered by our various speakers and in order to build a good foundation. So thanks for the hat tip there to us.

[Jane]

Appreciate it. Oh, you're welcome. So I'm telling you that in part to let you know I have had some preparation. I've taken some of those courses. I also read one of your recommended books, Delighting in the Trinity. And relatively recently I encountered a person I guess I would describe as a non trinitarian who does think of himself as a Christian. And so one of the arguments, I think it was from Tim Barnett or Scriptures I used was from Colossians, where Christ is described as the firstborn of creation. And then their response kind of caught me flat footed. They said, well, you're proving my point. Because if it says Jesus is the firstborn of creation, that implies that he's part of creation.

[Greg Koukl]

Right?

[Jane]

And I've been pondering it and I still haven't really come up with a response for that. And I just wondered if you might have something.

[Greg Koukl]

Yes, I do, in fact. And it's, it's kind of a. It's based on, in a certain sense. And I'm pausing, trying to find the best way to put it, an unfortunate translation. And it's interesting the way you stated it because you state it the way it's kind of written, but the way it's written gives a mischaracterization of what the word means. So what you said is he is the first. Exaggerating right now here, but the first born of all creation. Now that sounds like he was the first one who was born or probably meaning the first one who was created. Okay, the first one who was created. Well, it turns out that's not what the word means. There should be a hyphen there because in the Greek it's a single word. And the word is prototypical. Prototokos, P R O T O T O K A S, I guess. But the point, the word prototokos means firstborn. It doesn't mean first born as if first is modifying born. Instead, firstborn is a term of art, a theological term of art. I don't know if you've heard the phrase term of art before, but the point of a term of art is a term that has a special application within a certain discipline. Okay. And so we don't think of it as the. I'm trying to think of one off the top of my head right now, but I can't. Maybe I will in a few moments. But we don't think of it in terms of its standard usage in language, but we have to think of it in its usage within the discipline that we find this so called term of art. Okay, now prototokos, one word means firstborn. I should say not first one born, but firstborn. Okay? Now firstborn has a particular meaning in scripture. It doesn't mean the first one born. And we know this. And I'm going to have to look at my. Wait, I got to get my magnifying glass out here so I can check my marginal references here in pen. Where there are passages in scripture that refer to someone as the firstborn who was not born first. This is really important. If it just means birth order, then why does the scripture use it of individuals who were not the first ones born? Does that make sense? Okay, if you're taking notes, I got Genesis 41:51. So let's go there. I'm just looking at my marginal references where I wrote down. So I have a reference here. Genesis 41:54. This is going to be an example, I suspect, of the point I'm making. All right, then Pharaoh named Joseph and he gave him. Wait a minute, 41. Okay, maybe I'm not reading my reference properly here, since I'm just shooting from the hip here. I'm not going to go to that first. Well, it's a Genesis passage. Oh, maybe it's. Gosh, I can't read my own writing. 4151 is okay. Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, for he said, God has made me forget all my trouble, my father's household. Okay. But it turns out that Manasseh again, in that case, Manasseh was born first. Again, I'm shooting from the hip here. Going from my notes back and forth, we just have a little Bible study together. Jeremiah 31:9. Let me just go to that because these are parallel passages. What I'm trying to show you the passages that use the phrase firstborn, and it's not describing the first one born. And the reason is is firstborn means something else when it's used the way it's used in. In Philippians or Colossians. Okay, so what did I say that was Jeremiah 31:9. Okay, that's going there. Okay, Jeremiah 31:9. I hope this helps with weeping. They will come and my supplication I will lead them. I will make them my streams of water. Oh, for I am a father to Israel and Ephraim is my firstborn. So the first reference in Genesis says that Manasseh is the firstborn. And here in Jeremiah it says, ephraim is my firstborn. Well, they can't both be the first one born,

[Jane]

right?

[Greg Koukl]

Firstborn means something different. In fact, Here in Jeremiah 31:9, firstborn is one word. Colossians. It's also rendered as one word, not as two words. I mentioned putting a hyphen there, but you can render it as one word. And that's what's done Here in Psalm 89, 27, the Psalmist writes, and I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth. Now this is referring to David. Was David the oldest or the youngest of all of the Siblings.

[Jane]

He was the youngest.

[Greg Koukl]

He was the youngest, but I will make him the firstborn. How can you make the youngest the oldest if that's what it's referring to? You can't.

[Jane]

They're using it in that special figurative way or term of art way that you mentioned.

[Greg Koukl]

Yes, you can't make the youngest the oldest. All right. The word firstborn in these kinds of applications does not mean the first one birthed. It means the preeminent one, the preeminent one. That's why the psalmist says, I will make him the firstborn. I will make him preeminent among all his brothers. He's the youngest, but he will be preeminent, just like Joseph was preeminent. Now, I don't know if it uses the word firstborn or Joseph, but I'm just giving this as an example. He was almost the last born when Benjamin was younger, but Joseph was one of the youngest, but he ended up becoming the preeminent one above them all. That's what the visions he had indicated. All his brothers bowing down to him, his mother and father bowing down to him, because he was going to be placed in a position of preeminence. And so what's interesting here, now let's go with that in mind. Go back to the Colossians passage. It's interesting the way it's phrased here, starting in verse 13 in Colossians 1:13. For he rescued us from the domain of darkness and he transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son. Okay, now the next verse is going to be talking about the Son in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sin. And he is the image of the invisible God. Now this is a very, very strong statement. Remember, in the Hebrew law, you're not supposed to make any images of God, alright? Because no image is adequate to express God. But here Paul is describing Jesus as the image of the invisible God. Now this is a strong reference to the divinity of Christ. He's referring to Jesus as being unique. He is the divine Son of God. And then it goes on to say, appropriately then, the firstborn of all creation. Now, Jesus wasn't the first one born. Notice the antecedent. Here is Jesus. And he, let's see, he rescued us from the divinity, oh God the Father, and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption. The image of the invisible God, the firstborn. So for by him. Next verse. By him all things were created. Now this is interesting. If Jesus was the firstborn in the sense that he was the first one Created. Then how could the next verse say that through him all things were created? Because that would have to accept him. He's created, then he didn't create all things because he's a created thing, if that's what that means. But it goes on to say, both in the heavens and the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones and dominions or rulers and authorities, all things have been created through him, and for him he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Now, this is another reference to the sustaining power of God. So there's a deity reference here with regards to Jesus. And Then he's verse 18. He is also the head of the body of the church. And then he says he's the firstborn from the dead, so that he himself will come to have first place in everything. Notice that verse 16, 18. Oh, and then verse 19. For it's the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in him and through him, to reconcile all things to himself. So the point I'm making is when you understand verse 15 and the phrase firstborn, as firstborn one created, it's hard to make sense of the prior phrase that he's the invisible of the he is the image of the invisible God, because God is not created. But if it's taken as prototokos, that is the. The preeminent one, the first one, like is often used in the Old Testament, then it makes sense for 16, 17, 18, 19 and 20 are all describing his role and function as the one who is preeminent, which includes creating everything. But he can't create everything that was ever created if he himself was created right. That would be a contradiction. And you can make a cross reference here to John, chapter one and verse three, because in John 1:3, John describes the Word who later on became flesh in the person of Jesus. It says all things came into being through him. So that matches this verse 16 in Colossians 2. I'll make that Colossians 1. And apart from him, John continues, nothing has come into being that has come in nothing in the beginning was, let's see, all things came into being through him, and apart from him, nothing came into being that has come into being. In other words, in two ways he makes unmistakable that the one called the Word is the uncreated Creator, who then becomes a man. Verse 14. And so being the uncreated Creator, like it says here in verse 16 in Colossians 1, he can't be created because everything that was created was created by him. He has to be uncreated. He's the uncreated creator, which is there's only one uncreated creator. And who's that? God.

[Jane]

Right.

[Greg Koukl]

So he's divine, uncreated. And because of his role becoming a man, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. He now is the center of everything. He's the first, the foremost, the preeminent one, the prototokos, the firstborn. I kind of wish that the translation was different to capture the sense, because the translation, firstborn, even though it's all one word, as it ought to be, because that's the way it is in the Greek, gives the impression to a lot of people that he's the first one created.

[Jane]

Right.

[Greg Koukl]

Okay. Does that all make sense, the way I pulled all that together for you?

[Jane]

Yeah, I think so. It sounds like we should not get caught up in the preposition there or the literal word, firstborn. But in the context of. As the following verses make clear, put the emphasis more on that. Christ is the preeminent one, the supreme.

[Greg Koukl]

Correct.

[Jane]

And I had seen in looking at some other translations, they use different words like supreme over or preeminent over, which kind of avoids that of word that seems to entangle him into the creation. But I like that, the way you're presenting it, that he's over it, he's above it.

[Greg Koukl]

Correct. Now, Jehovah's Witnesses make a big. A lot of this passage. And I've given you. I've actually given you a lot of odds and ends here. So let me try to organize them again at the end. The word prototokos is a single word. It's not two words. It's not first which then modifies born. It is one word which means firstborn, which has a unique meaning. Now, we know it cannot mean created, because the next verse, verse 16, says, By him all things were created. And it gives a whole bunch of categories of creation, both in the heavens and the earth, visible, invisible, thrones, dominions, rulers, authority, that he's covering all the bases. So if the word can't, even in the immediate context, the word can't mean created. Or else you have a contradiction. And you certainly have a contradiction with John 1:3, where it makes the same statement that all things came into being through him, and apart from him, nothing came into being that has come into being. Therefore the word could not have come into being. And so how do we resolve that conflict or that apparent contradiction? We realize, oh, this word is not used to mean first one created. That would be a contradiction. It's a term of art that means preeminent 1, which is the kind of description we see in verses 16 through 20. And it's also the way it was used in the different places. The Old Testament firstborn wasn't used to describe the first one born, not consistently. So that's the way of approaching this. There's no good justification. If your friend wants to go that direction, he's got to affirm a contradiction in the text.

[Jane]

That helps. Greg. Thank you for that.

[Greg Koukl]

Alrighty. Hey, it's great talking to you. Did you just call in kind of on a whim, or did you know that I would be live right now?

[Jane]

No, I heard on the prior podcast that you were doing a special call in today at 10 to noon.

[Greg Koukl]

That's good. I was afraid I had not emphasized that accurately or as thoroughly as I could have, and so consequently, I'm glad that somebody responded. It's good talking to you. Thank you.

[Jane]

Yes, I did.

[Greg Koukl]

Yes.

[Jane]

Thank you.

[Greg Koukl]

Thank you, Jane. I so appreciate your call. Take care now.

[Jane]

You're welcome.

[Greg Koukl]

Happy Christmas to you.

[Jane]

Merry Christmas.

[Greg Koukl]

Bye bye now. All right, let's take a break and we'll be back with more and stand to reason.

[Mr. B]

As a high school teacher, I always had a red pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front of my students teaching a lesson, you could find me assessing assignments, grading essays, and evaluating exams. The red pen played a crucial role in the educational development of my students. With it, I questioned their assumptions, exposed their errors, and challenged them to think critically. You see, a good teacher doesn't merely tell his students that they're wrong. A good teacher shows his students why they're wrong so they don't make the same mistakes twice. He corrects because he cares. Last year, I was scrolling through social media and frankly, I was discouraged at all the bad thinking that undergirded much of what I was reading. Then it hit me. What if someone applied the red pen to this flawed thinking? And Red pen logic with Mr. B was born. In the last few months, Red Pen Logic has grown in popularity through our engaging and shareable educational graphics and videos. We are helping people, especially young people, assess bad thinking by using good thinking. And we have a lot of fun in the process. So here's your homework assignment, like the Red Pen Logic Facebook page so you don't miss our next graphic. And subscribe at the red Pen Logic YouTube channel so you don't miss a single video. Class dismissed.

[Alan Schliemann]

We all know we should be reading the Bible, but why? In the latest episode of my podcast, Thinking Out Loud with Alan Schliemann. I want to unpack three reasons why you need to make daily Bible reading a priority. Look for this podcast on itunes, Spotify, your favorite podcast app, or at the top of the [e-mail] friends if you

[Amy Hall]

like this broadcast, I know you'll love Strask. It's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy hall and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter. Strask is released twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes long, so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage, or just plain loafing at home. Amy and I tackle your questions on theology and ethics and culture and lots more, offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face. You can listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your own shows. Just remember, send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast. Strask. That's Strsk.

[Greg Koukl]

Now, this being my last podcast before Christmas, I I thought it might be good to share a few thoughts, and I think every year I offer something along this line. But two nights ago we watched my favorite Christmas movie and it's appropriately about the first Christmas. And whenever you have Bible movies, I have a basic rule that I follow whether I approve of them or not. And the basic rule is do no harm. Everything doesn't have to be like perfectly accurate. And even the best of Jesus movies, whether it's about Christmas and the birth of Christ or whether it's about the death of Christ or the life of Christ, and there have been movies that covered all of those things. My basic rule is do no harm. Now I think that in the case of, say, the Passion of the Christ, this was remarkable because everything that was depicted, except for the kind of the fanciful where the snake shows up and tempts Jesus or whatever, I mean, well, there's a temptation I guess there. But. But for the most part, that movie was historically, let's put it that way, as accurate as you can, you can, you can make it for a film. And because of that it was pretty gruesome. It was remarkable in my view, what happened and what was filmed. And watching it, I have a hard time watching it. If you're going to watch one film around Easter, watch that. But it's gruesome. But on Good Friday, that's the time to watch does no Harm. In other words, there's nothing in it that is a significant distraction or emphasizing something that's false about Jesus. Now, in some other movies, there are elements of that. I'm just pausing because I'm trying to think of examples. And I like Jesus of Nazareth for the larger story. And that was, what, 45 years ago? But there are some scenes in that that I think the writers and the actor who portrayed Jesus really captures the spirit of the chapter or the event. And it's amazing. I'm deeply edified by what I see. I think, is this the one where John the Baptist is baptizing Jesus and he's saying, somehow I know you. You look. There's something about you that's familiar. Well, they were cousins. I mean, that's kind of silly because of course, they grew up each other with each other in some fashion. Right? In any event, they were. I should. I guess second cousins would be the more accurate characterization. But in any event, as long as the film isn't doing any harm, I. I'm. I'm fine with it. All right? And some do a better job than others at characterizing the good. Now, the Chosen I have problems with. I think it does harm. I. I've talked about that before, but I'm not going into it. But I'm just saying some work and some don't. Now, the movie we see for Christmas is the Nativity story. I discovered another one last year. My wife found it. That's even better in terms of historical accuracy. But I'll get to that in a moment. But the Nativity story, I think, is really good. And one of the things I really like about the Nativity story is that it captures the. What I think is the emotional struggle that Mary and Joseph have to deal with. First Mary, because now she's pregnant, and an angel told her that the pregnancy was a result of the Holy Spirit. So when she goes away to visit Elizabeth, which is right after she hears from the angel, and I have more to say about that, in a moment, she begins to show while she's in Jerusalem, not in Nazareth. When she comes back, she's showing. And that's when everybody realizes, oh, my goodness, Mary's pregnant. Now. What? And of course, this is an affront to her family and affront to Joseph. And she has to try to explain this, which they're not going to believe. I mean, why would anybody initially believe Joseph didn't believe? He's trying to deal honorably with his wife, but he's still struggling until the angel reveals to him in a dream that this child is from the Holy Spirit. And you shall name his name Jesus, or he shall save his people from their sins. So you have a revelation that brings Joseph on board, but you can imagine now the struggle. They both know, and I suspect the parents don't know what happened. And Mary's parents, that is. So now what? Well, then they make their journey to Bethlehem as a result of the census. And so much of that movie is just rich, I think, with a sense of emotional connection that I have with Mary and Joseph. And that's edifying to me. I watch that now. There are a number of things that just aren't right. They're on the wrong side of the Sea of Galilee. When they head out, there's all these canyons and deserts and all this other stuff that just doesn't seem to be characteristic of that trip. It is arduous. Not quite 90 miles, but nevertheless arduous. Up and down, coming from the Jordan, up from Jericho, up to the heights where Jerusalem is. That's tough. And just saying the wise men don't show up on the night of Jesus birth. It's a very, very touching scene with them showing up and the shepherds showing up and all that in a little cave. But none of that is historically accurate. Neverthele. I can put up with that because it's so sweet and so rich. And the sense of the profundity of the moment of the birth of the king of the world in this humble location, that's communicated very powerfully. So my high recommendations to that, in spite of some of the historical inaccuracies that are not really relevant to the theological substance. Okay, but now if you want to watch something that is also really good, by the way, we saw three things so far about the birth of Jesus and there was a third one. I won't even mention the name, it's not relevant. But it was so substandard in terms of the casting and the acting and everything to these other two, it stood in stark contrast. These two, the Nativity story and the other one my wife found last year, stand alone. So I'm going to recommend this one with a caveat of sorts. And it has nothing to do with the substance because the substance all the way to the end is really solid. But this particular one titled the Christ Child, so if you go to YouTube, type in the Christ Child, you're going to get it. But you might notice at first because of the, you know, the presentation there on the thumbnail when you're ready to start, or the thumbnails that show up on the right hand side and if you don't notice it, then you will see it at the very end. The very last frame says Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So this is an LDS production. I don't care, because there's nothing LDS about it, except for maybe, arguably the reason they put the very last line in the piece. Though the line in isolation from its LDS reference or filmmakers is still great. You can watch this entire thing without any trouble. I encourage you to do so. Pardon me. And here's why. There is a common awareness or a sense of how this whole nativity event plays out in which there's a lot of inaccuracies and common presumption. No room in the inn, for example. No room in the inner. Well, there were no inns in Bethlehem. It wasn't that there was no room in the inn. They didn't exist because inns were infrequent unless they were in areas where there were lots of people traveling through maybe Jericho, as an example, with Rahab. And there was a kind of an inn there way back when. That was what, 1500 years, right? 1500 years prior to Christ. But in any event, inns only occurred in particular kinds of places, certainly not in Bethlehem, which is a little quiet burg a couple of miles from Jerusalem proper. So you're not going to have any inns there. People who are responding to the census were going to the place of their ancestors, which means they had relatives there, and people were staying with relatives. They weren't looking around for an inn. And it turns out Joseph and Mary were not housed in a cave or a stable in the sense that is often characterized in these films. They were. They were. They. They were put up in a house, the house of their relatives. Well, wait a minute. What about that verse that says there was no room in the inn? Well, this is a mistranslation. And virtually everybody who does historical analysis of these things acknowledges this is the case. The Greek word is kataluma, and kataluma doesn't mean in. In the sense that we think. It does mean the place where people would stay when they're staying with their relatives. But that's the upper room. The kataluma is the upper room. And there was no room in the upper room where people would normally stay. Why was there no room in the upper room? Because it was already crowded with people visiting Bethlehem and their relatives staying over for the census. All right? And so Mary and Joseph had to stay in the lowest quarters, which is where the animals were under the house and where they would have some Privacy and where they would have a trough, a feeding trough to lay the newborn Jesus. Now this film, the Christ Child, shows all of that accurately. So they're making their journey to Bethlehem. This is only 17 minutes long, so it's not like a full length movie or anything, but it's all about the journey to Bethlehem. They come to a house, they are greeted by relatives. They come into the house. Joseph checks out the kataluma, the upper room, climbs a ladder, man, it's filled with other people. No room there, no room in the kataluma. He goes down and then Mary starts giving birth. So they move her in a place of privacy where the animals are, and she gives birth in the, I guess you could call a stable, but it's not a stable like we would think. It's just the lower portion of the house. And all of that is historically much more accurate. Okay. Now when the wise men come, they don't come at the birth of Jesus because the star that aligns over Bethlehem is what attracts these men from the east, probably Babylon, to make this journey. And notice in the text when they talk with the King Herod, King Herod is asking them, when, when did the star appear? And when he gives the charge to destroy the children in Bethlehem, he gives the charge to destroy those who are two years and younger according to the timing that the wise men indicated. So Jesus is probably a year to two years old. In fact, I'm not sure if it's Matthew or Luke, but it says when the wise men came, they came to the house to visit the child, the technon. And in the LDS Christ child version, this is exactly what happens. Jesus is about two years old. And I'm just telling you that is the cutest 2 year old I ever seen. Maybe a year and a half, but amazing and perfectly cast and the whole scene is perfectly done to be persuasive that this is what could have taken place. All right, again, very moving, very touching. And I like the attention to historical detail that actually matches what took place. So I suggest you see them both, the nativity story, for the reasons I suggested. Keeping in mind, there's lots of inaccuracies that are not really relevant to the emotional impact that is delivered about the glory and significance and power of the birth of Christ. And I think the casting in both cases is phenomenal, especially Mary. All right, now I wanted to make an observation about something else that a lot of people miss. And sometimes there are opportunities for apologetics that appear in the text that pastors miss. And this is one of them, because remember, Mary is visited by the angel. I think this is Luke. And the angel tells her what's going to happen to her. And she's mystified. And she's mystified because she's a virgin. How can these things be? The angel tells her about the Holy Spirit's role in this. And then he says, for all things will be possible, for God are possible, and even your cousin Elizabeth is with child in her sixth month. And then Mary says, be it done to me according to thy will, etc. Surrender. And the next verse, after this encounter, the next verse says she goes to see Elizabeth. In other words, it doesn't seem like she's lingering at all. And I want you to notice something here that has apologetic significance because in the film, the Nativity Story, you do get this sense of how is Mary going to explain her pregnancy to her parents and to others close by who are not inclined to believe that this is a miraculous birth. Virgins don't give birth. Mary, come on. And what to me is significant is that the encounter with the angel is what you might call first person private. Nobody else has access to that, nobody else can assess it. But Elizabeth's pregnancy is third person public, and this would have been a good opportunity, although there's a little attempt made at that. But not. They didn't carry it out very much in the Nativity story, for her to say, look, the angel told me this. I know, it's unbelievable. You have no way to know whether this is true except for I'm telling you the truth. But they also. The angel also told me that Elizabeth is in her sixth month. Now I'm going to Jerusalem and I'm going to see if Elizabeth is in her six month. And if she is, that's proof to everybody, third person public, that what I said about the angel and my pregnancy is actually true. That's pretty cool, isn't it? So God gives a private revelation to Mary, but also enough information so she can demonstrate, apologetics, if you will, that there's truth to her claim that she is a virgin giving birth to the Christ child. As the angel says later, who is Christ the Lord? Who is Christ the Lord? In other words, God come down as the Messiah. Another evidence scripturally of the divinity of the Messiah, the divinity of Christ. The only other observation I want to make about this is that you see this, especially in the Mary and Joseph, I should say the Nativity story, but it's just true. Imagine you can understand this, especially when not only the Arduous trip for a pregnant woman from Nazareth to Jerusalem, but from Jerusalem to Egypt, which is a lot further. And even if it's a two year old they're taking, which I suspect was the case, and they were able to fund all of their time there with the gifts that the Magi had given them, which were substantial. Even so, that's a hard trip. Now keep in mind this is God's ordained plan for the Messiah of the whole world. God set this up, but it's not easy. It's not easy for Mary, it's not easy for Joseph, it's not easy for her parents who still have this daughter who's living under a cloud according to the rest of the people in their community. And little hints of this even comes up during Jesus ministry where the Pharisees says we were not born of fornication. Implication like you were. It's hard and it's hard to make these journeys. It's hard, you know, everything's difficult for them. I guess the implication is if God is behind this and he's the one who's seeing to the fulfillment of his universal purpose to save the world through Jesus, that man, it would be a little easier. But it's not. It's hard even for them. And the point I hope is just obvious that even the birth of Jesus and all that was associated with that and everything was a travail for all those involved. Just because it's God's divine purpose doesn't mean it's not going to be hard for those who are participating in that purpose. Purpose. And I think sometimes we get discouraged in this life group. We think we're doing what's right, what's appropriate, pursuing godly goals, but it's just not working out. It's really hard. Yep, here's my line. Life is hard and then you die. But as a Christian, that's all gets better after that. So we can take counsel for Mary and Joseph and that entire event that for us it's going to be hard too. Following the Lord. Anyway, some things to think about this Christmas. Happy Christmas to you all. Greg Kokel for Stan de Reason. Give him a heaven. Bye bye now.

[Jane]

Sam.