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All right, friends, Greg Kokel here for Stand. I'm tapping my headset, I'm saying I don't have any sound here. What's going on, Kyle? And I realize I'm not plugged in. Gotta plug it in. Check the plug. All right. Welcome to Stand A Reason. Greg Kokel here, your absent minded host. Glad you joined me today. I've never done that before, but I was asked a question. Incidentally, let me give you a phone number in case you'd like to call in. 855-243-9975. That's my line for actually, it's Amy's. You'll get Amy, then she'll pass you on to me when she chats with you. 855-243-9975. If you want to call in during live show hours, That's Tuesday from 4:00pm till 6:00pm Los Angeles time. I was in Minneapolis over the weekend. Mini so cold and it was so cold I looked at my iPhone, it said 14 degrees. Feels like 8, felt like minus 8 to me. Now I grew up in Chicago and actually my first five years of my life were spent on a farm. And we Wisconsin pretty much the same distance north as Minneapolis. That was a long time ago. I've been in California for over half a century, so I'm almost a native and my blood is thin. Anyway, wonderful time there at Lakes Free Church in Lindstrom, Minnesota with my, with my fishing buddy and the pastor there, Jason Carlson. But we had a conference on Saturday and then Friday night and Saturday I was there with Megan Allman who did fabulous job and we both had responsibilities Sunday morning as well. So did a lot of sessions. But there was a Q and A session on Friday and I make that Saturday. And I fielded a question that I've actually got in different ways a number of times at events. And also I've seen it online and sometimes Christians raise the question and other times it's non Christians in kind of an aggressive fashion, like what's up with this kind of deal? I've talked a lot of times about the problem of evil, but it actually takes many forms and this question is a form of this. And indeed, I discussed this with my team today at our staff meeting because I think it was worth talking about a little bit. And the question was basically in the category of, as a subset of the problem of evil. If I was a father to my children and I loved my children, then that would inform my behavior towards my children. I wouldn't do XYZ to my children. The way God does, apparently to his children. We read in the Bible to those who he created. And that would make me more loving than God is. So how do you explain that kind of thing? And they're looking at things like maybe eternal conscious torment in hell. They might be looking at ways that God judged Israel or other people with Israel. And this is just, you know, if your God exists, this is the new twist on the problem of evil question. If your God exists, then he's not good, because that's not good. And I know better than to do that to my children. And that would mean I'm better than your God, which means I'm not interested in your God. So that's essentially what the question amounted to. And sometimes, though I've dealt with this before, sometimes I'm able to dial down on it a little bit more. Kind of on the fly. I get asked a question and then I think about it a little bit and then something occurs to me that's relevant to answering this question. Now, I think this is a challenging question. It's not like, okay, here's a 30 second easy response that will take care of it all. Because sometimes questions about the nature of God and his character and what he does depend. The answer to those questions depend on a more, I mean, for the lack of a better word, sophisticated or thoroughgoing understanding of what God is actually like. And it's very, very easy for us to try to look at God through our lens, as it were. Well, this is what I would do if I was in that circumstance. And your God is not doing that kind of thing. So what's up with that? I'm better than he is, or something like that. And I think the hard thing is to try to understand a being who is kind of like us, but not entirely. And some have said when we read Scripture, theologians have said that when we read and we analyze and assess and come up with an understanding of what, what the text actually says about God, that nothing that it says is really, in a certain sense, perfectly literally true. But it is the best the writers could do in human language to help us understand something about God. It's analogical, some will say everything that's written about God in Scripture is analogical. It doesn't take us all the way. It gives us a kind of an analogy, a way of understanding somewhat, but doesn't bring it home. And this question falls into that category because the Bible does talk about God as being a father to his children. Jesus said to pray, our Father who art in heaven, so that entails this filial relationship. The problem is when we try to make that relationship look just like our relationship with God, rather, I'm sorry, our relationship with our own children. When we do that, potentially we run into a problem. And the key that I brought up, at least this was my little epiphany at the moment that I'd not really thought about before, but occurred to me when the question was asked on Saturday afternoon. The key is to understanding that God is not a father in exactly the same way that we are fathers to our children or mothers to our children. He is a father, kinda sorta. There's an analogy there that tells us something about God. But if we press the metaphor too far, the figure of speech, we end up misunderstanding, I think, the nature of God. Because the fact is, it's not just a father child relationship that we have with God. There are at least three other very significant characterizations of the relationship God has to those who he's made that also enter into the discussion. There's also the master servant relationship. And of course, Jesus speaks of that. He is the master, he is the Lord, we are the servants, we obey. We have the Doulos, the slave, if you will. And that's part of the interaction that we have with God that's different than father child, right? And we probably would not appropriately act to our own children like a master acts to his slave or to his servant, his bondservant. We wouldn't do that. That would be inappropriate for a father child relationship. But the fact is this is a way that Scripture characterizes God, relates to us and appropriately. But it's not just father child or master servant, but it's also sovereign subject. In other words, he is the king and we are the subjects in his domain. In fact, on my view, and I talked about this in the story of reality, one way of understanding the theme of Scripture is the way God is presented there, right in the opening words of the story. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In other words, he's a king who has created a domain that belongs to Him. And you have a king creating a domain or a dom, and therefore you have a kingdom. And that, I think, is the overarching theme of Scripture. That is God's ultimate authority over everything that belongs to him, which is everything. God's in charge. He made it. It's His. He made us. We're His. We are under his authority. Now, I know that's not warm and fuzzy. Nevertheless, that theme runs right from beginning to end. When John the Baptist shows up, he's proclaiming the kingdom of God. Then he points at Jesus and he says, behold the Lamb of God. And then Jesus begins preaching the kingdom of God. And then Jesus builds disciples he sends out and they preach the kingdom of God. In other wor, they're beckoning the world back underneath. Their appropriate relationship with their appropriate sovereign things are out of whack. God made the world his kingdom and made us in a certain sense as subjects under his kingdom to be in a friendship with him, a relationship with him. But man made a mess of that, right? And the rest of the story is cleaning up the mess. And so on a sovereign subject basis, now we've got a serious problem because we have rebellion against the king. And that's a real part of the nature of the interactive relationship we have with God. But it even goes further because it's not just father child, it's, it's also master, servant, it's also sovereign subject, but it's also potter clay. You read in Romans 9, Paul is saying, wait a minute, he's the potter, you're the clay. Why are you telling him what to do? Why are you, the clay, speaking to the potter as if you're the one in charge? You're not. He's the maker, you're the made. M a D E, the made one. They created one. And so there's a different element here. Now what's curious, if you don't see this, it's easy to get confused, just like people get confused about Jesus. Jesus is the God, man. He's fully God, fully man, one person, two natures. That's the Chalcedonian formula, also known as the Chalcedonian box. When Jesus in the Gospels is talking about given that he's fully God and fully man, sometimes he's speaking from the perspective of being fully God, and other times he's speaking from the perspective of being fully man. So when he says before Abraham was I am. Well, he's not speaking regarding his human nature, he's speaking regarding his divine nature. When he says the father is greater than I or I thirst, he's making a reference to physical, I should say human qualities, not divine qualities. Both are true of him. And also in the same way, that's also an analog to this particular issue. Because God is a father to his children, kinda, he is a master to his servants, kinda, he is a sovereign to his subjects, kinda, he's a potter to the Kleika. I say kinda just because these are analogical to a great degree kind of Figure out the details, the refinements, as we move along. But of course, when God is acting in the capacity of a sovereign to his subjects that are in rebellion to him, he's not going to act in the way that a father would act towards his child. It's a different element. It's a different circumstance. And that's true of all of those. And so when you read in the text, sometimes it's speaking from the perspective of one kind of relationship, and in other texts it's speaking from the perspective of a different kind of relationship that are true parts of God's interaction with those whom he has created. So this reflection may not be fully satisfying to people. I get that. Well, nevertheless, that's pretty nasty, what God is doing. Okay, you're going to have to make your own decisions. But it's not my goal to give you a satisfying answer. It's my goal to give you a sound answer, an accurate answer from the text. It's my goal to tell you what the text actually says. And these things are in play. But one other thing to keep in mind, and this is not going to sit well with a lot of people, but it is sound. Maybe not satisfying, but is sound. And that is the filial relationship that Scripture describes God has with other people. That is that paternal, fatherly relationship. It does not teach he has that with everyone. That's an insider relationship, strictly speaking, insofar as the Scripture bears testimony, yes, it is true that God has created everyone. Everyone is a creation of God bearing His image. But it is not the case that everyone who he has created is a child of God in the sense that Scripture means when it describes this more intimate relationship. John 1:12. As many as received him, to them he gave the right to become children of God. John writes in 1 John 3. One of my favorite verses. I love the way this reads in the New American Standard. Some people think it a stiff translation. I don't. I love it. Very precise, too. And what John writes there is, see how great a love the Father has for us that we should be called the children of God, and such we are. That we would be called the children of God, and such we are. That's the body of Christ, the redeemed ones, the covenant people. And in the Old Testament, those covenant people were the Jews. They were in a special relationship with God. They were the children of the covenant. And now we are grafted in. And we are now the children of. Of God in that sense. But with everyone else, there isn't that filial relationship. Right now there's conflict. Right now they're on the outside. And I'm not trying to be condescending in any sense, but the fact is God isn't working with those people as if they're his children. That behavior, that relationship, is reserved for those who have been brought in on the inside by Christ. Christ. Faith in Christ has given them that access. And then once we're in, we are not treated as rebels anymore because the punishment for rebels has already fallen on Christ, which we now fall under. But that is not true of the rest at the moment. And so they are still treated like outsiders by God. I answered or addressed the question, does God hear the while back, whether God hears the prayers of non believers. And as I looked over the text myself, peruse the scripture, it turns out no characteristically. What does it say in. Is it Psalms or is it Proverbs? It says, those who turn their ear away from the law, even their prayer is an abomination. That's the sovereign subject relationship that's in view there. And until that is resolved and the wrath of God is pacified regarding that rebel, there's no father child relationship. That's not the way the text characterizes it. Once we come under Christ and under forgiveness, now we're treated differently. And the reason is because God is no longer angry at us as he was. In a sense, this fixed disposition of anger and wrath towards rebels, now we have come under a different fixed disposition in virtue of Christ. That's, by the way, what it means to come in the name of Jesus. We come in virtue of his merits, not ours. And that's why Paul can say in Romans 5, therefore, being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have received this introduction into the faith in which we stand. And we exult in the hope of the glory of God. Now we're happy because God's not mad at us anymore. There's no barrier there. We're not at war with each other. The peace spoken of there is the peace with God, not the peace of God, say in Philippians 4. That's subjective. This one's objective. We're not at war anymore. So in virtue of Christ, then we enter into this family relationship as his children. Remember, Jesus said, my sheep hear my voice, and they follow me, and I give them eternal life. This is John 10, my sheep do. But he's speaking to Pharisees who are not responding. And he tells them, you're not my sheep, that's why you're not Responding, the Father has given my sheep to me. He hasn't given you to me. You're not my sheep. So notice that there are two groups here of human beings, those on the outside and those on the inside. And the difference is not any merit of those on the inside, but Christ. That's the difference. And once you're inside, well, that's great. God's not mad at you anymore. It doesn't mean he doesn't deal with you, because he does. And Hebrews 12, great passage talks about that. He disciplines every child he receives. Now, that can feel like anger and punishment. It's not. It's discipline. There's a difference. And it's not fun for us while it's happening. But the writer of Hebrews says, all discipline for the moment there in that same passage is not joyful, it's sorrowful. But afterwards, for those who have been trained by, it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. So when we read texts that talk about God being a Father, and we imagine what that in a certain sense dictates in terms of God's behavior towards us, we have to remember that that's not the only way the interaction is described. It's also described in these other three ways as well. Master, servant, sovereign, subject, and potter clay. And sometimes God, because of the nature of the circumstance, is dealing with us in that way, according to that function or relational element that God has. And until we, you know, we lay down our arms and sue for peace in our battle against God, and that's exactly what it is, then we are on the outside and in love for everyone. He makes an appeal and he makes salvation available. But we are not being treated as children. Then we are in a position of rebels. Until we lay down our arms and become his children, his servants, we had been his subjects, we have been the clay. Now we have moved into a new capacity. All right, let's take a quick break here and I'll come back in just a moment with your calls. Friends, if you like this broadcast, I know you'll love Strask. It's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy hall, and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter. Strask is released twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes long, so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage or just playing loafing at home. Amy and I tackle your questions on theology and ethics and culture and lots more offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face. You can listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your own shows. Just remember, send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast Strask. That's Strask. Have you ever wondered how Stand a Reason is able to produce fresh, accessible content each week? We rely on generous donors so that we can provide you with the tools and tactics you need to be an effective ambassador for Christ. If you've benefited from this podcast or any of our donor provided resources, including our apps, blog posts, articles and short videos, consider making a financial contribution to Stand to Reason today. Just visit str.orgdonate to show your financial support. It has been an honor providing you with a host of free resources for more than 27 years to help you give voice to the Christian worldview. Help us continue by making a financial gift today@str.org donate. Rocking and Rolling in Philadelphia in about a week and that has been sold out for at least a month. We're thrilled. March 13th and 14th there is a wait list available and because we had some cancellations, some people on the wait list have been included. I think the wait list at the moment is something like 50 and we have 1400 capacity over there. Philly, it's a smaller venue, but just saying. The details for that are realityapologetics.com in in what, five or six weeks now we'll be in SoCal and we usually do that in the fall, but we kind of switch things around. So it's been about a year and a half since we've had a Southern California event, but we're going to be we're going to be at Calvary Chapel, Downey. It's a big church. We're thrilled. The dates for that are April 24th and 25th. It is not sold out. It is about one third sold out as we kind of move towards like a six week mark here. So just go to realityapologetics.com and you can sign up for that. This has been a fabulous season with reality and and looking forward to that Southern California event and we're way ahead of our standard signups at this point in time for an event like this in Southern California. So I'm just saying once again, realityapologetics.com Louisiana April 24th and 25th incidentally too, Amy and I usually do four sessions of Strask every morning when we come in here together. We only broadcast two per week so we're trying to get shows in the can, but we're starting to run out of questions. We hit a little low on that and want to encourage you. I mean, it's good because we're catching up, Right? But I want to encourage you to take your questions and if you have them that you can't call or do an open mic as we sometimes take, and you want to put your question before Amy and I just go to Twitter or what do we call it now they call it X and leave your question preceded by Strask. And there's also a place on our website you can do that. But I'm not entirely sure how this hashtag stuff. From what I understand, if you do Strsk and put the question in there, you put it on anywhere on the Internet, Amy's going to find it because that's how she tracks you. But in any event, we're making an appeal right now of four more of those questions. We love doing them. And when we do Strask, it's the other podcast that we do. Amy's in and she provides so much more insight than I could ever do. So it's good working with her on that. But just a thought about that event, by the way, this weekend, I want to tell you now because this show is going out tomorrow, I am going to be at Defend Leadership Conference in Little Rock, Arkansas. I think it's like a statewide Baptist conference with a number of other speakers. I don't recognize most of the names except for Mark Middelburg will be there as well, if you're interested. Let me see. I'm looking for the URL. If you go to str.org events, you'll get the details on that. So that's this weekend, Saturday, March 7th, in Little Rock, Arkansas. And Trip Almond will be speaking at Grace in Pagosa, Pagosa Springs, Colorado, on Sunday, March 29. There's more activity from our team. I just thought I'd toss those two out for you and just go to str.org events and you'll get the details for the rest of the crowd. Rest of my team. Let's go to Katie and Katie's in Las Vegas. Hi, Katie.
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A
Hey, Greg. Thanks again for having me on.
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B
Sure.
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A
Hey, I wanted to ask you, I was listening to J. Warner Wallace a couple weeks ago and he mentioned something in a way that made me want to kind of get your thoughts on how he explained this.
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B
He was wrong.
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A
I'm just saying I'm going to tell on you.
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B
Yeah, yeah. It's all right. He's probably listening.
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A
He was Explaining how, you know, trying to help people understand the difference between sanctification and glorification. And he explained sanct. Sanctification being a long hallway that you walk down towards the door. And glorification is that door. When you walk through it, it's instant. But sanctification takes that time, the process beforehand. And one of the things that I'm struggling with trying to explain to someone is what the purpose of sanctification is. Then if some people can just walk through the door. Right, because not everybody ends up spending their life getting sanctified. They die right after they walk through the door. So right before they walk. Walk through the door.
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B
That happened. Actually, Tim Barnett's grandfather, he had been sharing over the years with his grandfather, and then on his deathbed, the Lord arranged a private meeting. And he's talked about this publicly. So I'm not telling tales out of school, but his family, that was all present and are not Christians, actually, a strange set of circumstances. They were just gone for those moments. And he was able to talk to his grandfather again about the Lord. And his grandfather trusted Christ just before he died. In my case, my own dad died at about 72, but he became a Christian when he was about 70 and had only a year with the Lord before he died. And so those are two circumstances, kind of like what you're talking about, people right at the door, not sanctified, because not even saved, but then God, boom, right into glory, so to speak. Now, I mean, strictly speaking, full glorification will not be until we get our resurrected bodies, but everybody's getting a resurrected body regardless of when they walk through the door. So I agree with J. Warner with regards to the illustration, but it does raise this question. Did he speak to that question at all?
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It wasn't raised when he was giving that analogy. It was kind of part of a larger talk. And yeah, it was kind of a quick thing he threw out there. But that's especially because I do a lot of work with, talking with Mormons, and a lot of them, because of their eschatology and their view of the afterlife, the idea that you won't have an opportunity to make yourself right with God right before you die. They're like, no, that doesn't make any sense. And so trying to explain the sanctification process when people can just die right after that.
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B
Yes, well, you can make peace right before you die. And although, I mean, that's the case with my dad and more so even with Tim's grandfather. But here's a piece of the puzzle that's odd. It's defensible. Scripturally, I think it's the case, but it's odd. Not everybody's glorification is the same. Not everybody's glorification is the same. What do you mean by that? Good question. Some get more glory than the others, and this is very clear in Scripture. So I'll make a couple of references and we can talk some more about it. But one is one Timothy, chapter four, or something like that, where Timothy says. Or Paul says to Timothy, he says, physical exercise, okay, it has a little profit. But godliness is a means of great gain, for it holds a promise not only for this life, but also for the life to come. Well, wait a minute. That's different. So if I'm developing godliness in this life, sanctification, I'm moving down Jim's hallway there and developing more sanctification. Then whatever I develop in this life has a benefit to me in the next life that I would not have in the next life if I didn't have godliness in this life. You see that?
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A
That's an interesting. I want to say, I've heard you and a couple other people have kind of that same. You went to the Timothy passage, all of you, and this. And because I. Forgive me, because I deal with Mormons so much, this actually has been a passage I've struggled with, because one of the things that. That hurts my heart the most about Mormon theology is the way that they put focus on, yes, everybody's saved, everybody gets to go to a level of heaven, but you only actually get to be in the presence of God if you're good enough.
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B
Yes, I understand that, and I can see your sensitivity with that theology, but this isn't the same theology. This is actually quite different. We're not moving to godhood and that kind of thing. We don't have different levels of heaven. Hey, I'm up here in first class. Sorry, you're in steerage, man. But that's where you're going to be forever. Too bad. I got it really good up here. I'm closer to God. That's not the case in our circumstances, but there is the distinction that is made. And so we don't want to shy away from that because there's a distortion, a theological distortion that is similar to that in a religion, a false religion that really has a totally different storyline to it. Okay. We can acknowledge that something. There's going to be something better for some than for others. Now there's going to be greater punishment for some than others. This is clear. Jesus, when he's before Pilate, says that the one who delivered me over to you has the greater sin. If you have greater sin, it's a greater crime. He had a greater crime. You have greater punishment, he says, which, by the way, that person is not Judas, I don't think, but the chief priest that delivered Jesus over to Pilate. So this guy should have known better, right? And so he's going to get worse. And Jesus says to the towns of Capernaum and some others, it'll be more tolerable in the day of judgment for Sodom and Gomorrah than it will be for you. So there is commensurate punishment on the one side, but there also is commensurate glorification on the other side. And there's that reference that may seem a bit mysterious in 1 Timothy, but also in Hebrews, you read Hebrews 11 and you read about the great people of faith, and all these people did this by faith and that by faith. And the other faith. By faith, they this, that the other thing. In other words, the successes. And then it has an interesting little phrase there. It says, and others and others. And then when you read after that, it turns out these people didn't succeed, didn't get rescued by faith, they endured hardship by faith. Here's the kicker. So that they would receive a better resurrection. A better resurrection. So that's in Hebrews 11. And that.
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That's hard.
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Why would that be hard?
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A
Well, and forgive me, like I said, I have a sensitivity to it. And this is actually different than what I called you for, but it's linked and it's something that I've struggled with for a long time. And if maybe you could follow me for just a second. I have kind of a theory that the idea that we're going to get better things based on our life in the crowns we'll receive in heaven or the rewards that will receive in heaven, these kinds of wordings that's used throughout Scripture, I've always struggled with that because to me, I picture us sitting in our neighborhoods in heaven, like the LDS like to try to paint for me? And like, I'm going to be looking over at this guy's house over here, and he's going to be like, see all the cool gold I've got on my fence that you don't have because you didn't live as good a life as I did. And I'm like, wait a minute, hang on. That's not how heaven's supposed to be, I don't imagine anybody is going to be able to say, look how much better I am than you, because we're all going to be focused on Jesus. But then I see, like, you're going to get better rewards if that, if this. And so my theory, and tell me what you think of this, is the idea that we'll get those crowns, but they will be, we will see what our good in life, the good we did in life, what it did. We will, we will meet the people that got saved because of us. We will see the events that took place because of our loving, you know, fealty to God and that will be our reward. But then it talks about crowns being tossed at the feet of Jesus. And so I'm wondering, like, does our reward in heaven, yes, it's greater or less, but it's not to benefit us, it's to glorify God. Does that make sense?
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B
Yeah, it makes sense. I just don't know if it's entirely accurate. And of course it does say we're throwing our crowns, etc. And I don't know that they're going to. Remember I talked about analogical language in the text when I had my opening remarks. And so there are rewards and I think those are rewards based on our merit. Merit doesn't get us saved, but there are things that we merit in virtue of our growth in Christ or else there wouldn't be an award given. God is giving an award, a reward because of something that we accomplished with his help. No question. I'm not trying to isolate God from this, but the way you described your concern, and I understand that, is describing somebody who is not an attitude that will not be in heaven because nobody's going to be having that kind of self centered, condescending, whatever attitude towards others who are not expressing or showing as much glory as another. And I don't know how to kind of parse all that out. You know, what it's going to be like is hard to even imagine, right. Even when I did the Story of Reality, I was begging off towards the end, as I'm writing about heaven, I'm saying I don't even know how to talk about this because it's very difficult. And I gave some general things like we're going to feel perfectly clean and we've never felt that in our entire lives. For example, you know, there's not going to be any regret, there's not going to be danger. There's not going to be any danger of having our feelings hurt or danger of Us sinning against somebody else. And those were the things that were kind of included in your own reflection on this. If we have disproportionate something, and probably the simplest way to characterize that something is glory, some people will get more glory than other, because that's the only way I can understand what the text is referring to. And by the way, there's another text that I'm sure that you're familiar with, that's the Woodhaste doubles text, the Bema seat there. And what is it, 1 Corinthians somewhere, and he talks about, we're going to all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. Now, the Bema seat judgment is not a judgment. B E M A, that's the Greek word for the kind of judgment seat that this one is. That's the judgment seat where you get rewards. And there's a caution there. In fact, I think I don't have it in front of me. I'm just going by memory. But I think the caution is knowing the fear of Christ. In light of this bema seat judgment, we persuade men. I think Paul says that there. And so what is the Bema seat judgment? He said, well, the believer's works are going to be tested and they're going to be tested by fire. Okay, another figure of speech. It's going to be adequate, though, to get rid of the junk. And the stuff that's really the good stuff will not be affected by the judgment. So it's going to burn off the dross, so to speak. In fact, it uses language of burning. And if what we have built as believers on our foundation of Christ is just a bunch of junk, we've wasted a bunch of time, time wasted a bunch of money. We've just kind of looked to ourselves and maybe did some good things here and there. You know, that's characteristic of all believers. They're going to do some things good, but we haven't really tried to build. It's all going to be gone. I remember a couplet, and Amy and I talked about this this morning on Strask, a similar question came up. There was a couplet that I remember from long ago, you might have heard, says, only one life will soon be passed. Only what's done for Christ will last. You've heard that, right?
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A
Yeah.
- [42:08]
B
Okay. So what this means, though, is that however we build on the foundation that's going to be tested. People who have been Christians for a long time will have had a long time to build something if they didn't build much. And it's just a little shanty or a shack and it's wood, hay, stubble. The fire is going to hit that and it's gone. If rather they built well for Christ, then it's not wood, hay, stubble. It's gold, silver, precious stones that will survive. Now, that suggests that in the bema seat judgment that there is going to be something meritorious that survives from the work that we've invested in our lives, survives into the next life, depending on this life. Now, keep in mind, even if there's a false theology that distorts the concept of merit in the next life, that doesn't take away from any true concept of merit that God distributes for a different reason, in a different way, with a different effect in the biblical understanding of reality. And that I think here's an application, especially going back to Jim's hallway there, is that when my dad died,
- [43:34]
A
I
- [43:34]
B
remember it occurring to me that he missed out on a lifetime of walking with Christ. And I'm not. And I don't mean just the walking with Christ is hard. Okay, let me just say that. But the reason it's hard is because he's working in our lives over a long time, disciplining us as children so that we will share in his godliness. And that's a process that happens over time. And it's hard, just like I was mentioning from Hebrews 12 afterwards, even though it's hard afterwards, it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Great. And so that's something we have in virtue of that time of growth with Jesus responding to the discipline that God puts in our lives so that we rise above that. The momentary light afflictions. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 4, which don't feel momentary and don't feel light in the moment, in the lifetime moment, but add up, produce. Actually, that's the verb that's used there, verse 17, I think it is, are producing an eternal weight of glory. So the hardships produce the glory and less hardships, less glory, more hardships, more glory. And that goes back to the Hebrews passage where it says, having they receiving a better resurrection. Okay, now when I thought about my dad, what I thought about is so sad. Not only did he not have that benefit of a life lived closer to God. And look, it doesn't matter if you're a Christian or not, life is hard. Life is harder than you die, right? But it's redeemed by God. All the hardship to do some bring benefit to us. He didn't have that benefit. And so I used to I mean, my reflection was. He entered the kingdom naked and smelling of smoke.
- [45:43]
A
I think I've heard you say that before.
- [45:44]
B
Yeah. So it's all the wood hay stubble is burned away. So is he graduating into glory? Yes, but it's not much glory. It's not much glow. It's not much shine. I don't know how else to put it. I did hear this, a guy I did radio with many, many years ago, over 30 years ago at KBRT and the Crawford Network when I was doing commercial radio. He said the best I can think of it is like light bulbs. You can have a perfect 50 watt light bulb that lights up the room at 50 watts. Now it's kind of a dim bulb, of course, 50 watts. Or you can have a thousand watt light bulb that's also perfect, but it glows brighter. So in one sense you have perfection for each at the level of wattage that they can glow, but they don't glow at the same wattage. And I think that was a helpful metaphor for me.
- [46:43]
A
That is a good metaphor. I'm not going to take up all your time this afternoon.
- [46:47]
B
It's just you and me this hour, so no worries. Oh well, we can keep chatting.
- [46:51]
A
I was going to say, like this is really helpful and it does it and I'm a very metaphor person. My brain works that way and so that is extremely helpful. I do like that analogy. The only thing I keep finding myself coming back to struggling with on this and I like the fact that, okay, so the, the long hallway now that puts us in, into an ability to have that thousand watt light bulb instead of 50. But now I'm trying. The, the thought that comes into my head with that is, what's the purpose of it? So we go to heaven where God's glory is brighter than the sun and we're this thousand watt light bulb. And over here is this 50 watt. So what does that serve? What does that do for God in that place? If our purpose to live there is for him for his glory, if our existence is for his glory, what difference does it make which light bulb is brighter?
- [47:42]
B
Well, sometimes we say something that's true in a way that gobbles up a bunch of other things that are true too that we need to reflect on. So we do exist for God's glory, but it isn't as if there is nothing else going on but God's glory. God takes pleasure in our sanctification so that we become like him in important ways. And he takes pleasure in that. Now I was digging around here in one Peter looking for this, that this passage about God's magnificent promises. I can't ask Amy. She's not paying attention right now. But she's laughing with Kyle about something. So. All right, she's wiling at the time while I'm working like crazy. But anyway, I remember how it goes. But to these he has given us, I just can't find it. So in my mind it's something like these have given us his precious, magnificent and precious promises, so that through them we can become partakers in the divine nature, something to that effect. Now, of course, we want to be careful what we mean by that, because that would mean something different to LDS person. But here, what is it talking about? It's talking about God giving us something that helps us along to grow in our own godliness and in a substantial way. It's not just like we're nicer. Something else is going on inside of us. We are sharing in his godliness. The morality, the goodness is increasing in us in some fashion. So these are concepts that are a little bit esoteric. They're a little bit beyond all of us. How does this all perfectly cash out? I don't know. We just get these glimpses. But it does seem that one thing that we can count on as the glimpses that we've been given indicate that the way we live our life on this side of the grave has an impact, makes a difference to the quality of life on the other side. And I am not sure about the possibility of genuine spiritual growth after the resurrection. It might be that the amount of spiritual growth that we have is fixed based on this life. I mean, it certainly would be consistent with those passages we talked about. Then the text says when we see him, we will be like him because we will see him as he is. What's up with that? Well, I think that's true too, but I don't know how to make it all dovetail with all this other stuff. And it'll be clear when we get there. But right now there's this mysterious element. So I am encouraged by those teachings to be more deliberate and intentional about pursuing godliness in my own life. It has helped me and I got a lot of this from JP Moreland. I mean, he's the first one who began introducing these concepts to me. He said once that this life is for us to be made fit to spend eternity with God.
- [51:16]
A
See, that's a very mirror type concept that I hear from some of the LDs is they call this college. They basically explained that the reason we were sent to earth was to gain a body and to go to college so that we can learn how to go be gods. And so.
- [51:37]
B
Well, in our case, it is learned. It is. We are developing a godliness for the future. So, you know, with lds, they have all the same language, they have totally different meanings. You know, they have a different Jesus, almost everything. I'm not sure, but I think the resurrection of Jesus from the tomb 2,000 years ago, they mean the same thing about that as we mean. But honestly, I think almost, I can't think of anything else in which we are really talking about the same thing. So in this particular case, you have something that we use the same language and the description of it is similar. Unless you understand it in light of their whole eschatological theological framework, then it means something totally different than it does in ours. And I wouldn't want you to shy away from a biblical teaching that is true and significant and useful for us because there is an echo of something like that in a false religion, taking people in a false direction.
- [52:44]
A
Well, and see, the only reason that I keep ending and to be to kind of hit on what you just said, this is something, this particular specific thing has been something that I have been like hacking at for a while here for my own edification. Because in trying to, like you said, when everything is the same word, but the different definition, the conversations that I have it, I do everything that I can to try and not end up in that.
- [53:12]
B
Right, to clarify. Yeah, clarify your terms. Right.
- [53:16]
A
And you just keep going back and forth where, like, I want to make sure that I understand exactly what the biblical teaching is so that I can have the conversation from a place of truth.
- [53:28]
B
Sure.
- [53:28]
A
And so when I look at the idea of, okay, well, we do get rewards, we do go through this sanctification process. We come here to try to be. Become something better. I have to try to figure I'm. What I'm working through right now is clearing out my brain and wrapping my brain around the idea of what that goes towards, like what God's, how that fits into the story and how it ends up becoming that it's for God's glory, but it's something he delights in for our benefit.
- [54:06]
B
Yeah, that's another part is I'm going to be careful. I say this, but I think God wants us to enjoy the godliness that we develop and take with us, as it were, the glory that we take with us. He wants us to enjoy that as well. I had a conversation with a friend recently and she was saying in the exercise of her own spiritual gift and she was actually feeling good about the role she was playing in the body of Christ with the exercise of her gift. And she was feeling like maybe she shouldn't be feeling that. That's too self centered. I said, look, if you had a beautiful voice and you were singing, and let's just say you're singing hymns all to the Lord, but you're also hearing your own voice and it's beautiful, would you not take satisfaction in hearing that beautiful sound come out of your vocal apparatus? Your mouth, your throat, your lungs, all that? I'm sure you would. I mean, remember who's the guy who did Chariot of Fire? Chariots of Fire, you know that movie. And when I run, I feel his pleasure is the way he put it, or at least the film put it. When I run, I feel his pleasure. And so I think there is entirely legitimate for us to enjoy the godliness that we are developing. There is a happiness, it's called eudaimonia. In the classic Aristotelian sense of being good. There's a satisfaction that you get for being good. And that's not egotistical. That is an appropriate satisfaction based on this quality that you have. And I think that God is happy that we experience that. Imagine if I wanted to really do a deeper dive, I could find a lot of passages that supported this notion. But the idea that God is giving us gifts and he's giving us a place to abide with and spend time with Him. I do not think we're going to be locked into this gaze on God for eternity. There is a term for that. What is that term, Amy? The moment, this locked in gaze thing, the beautific vision. Yeah, no, we're going to be doing stuff. We got activities to do and a new heavens and a new earth. We got responsibilities and everything like that. It's going to be satisfying activity, but it's going to be all appropriately Don and whatever. So don't worry too much. We're almost out of time here. But don't worry too much about that. I think don't try to lose yourself into God kind of thing. I think it's going to be a little bit different than that. And just keep in mind that the things that we've just talked about fit into an entirely different system than your LDS friends are in. And that makes all the difference in the world. All right.
- [57:12]
A
Yes, thanks, Greg. I appreciate you.
- [57:14]
B
Always a pleasure to talk you to with you, Katie.
- [57:16]
A
Have a great afternoon.
- [57:17]
B
You too. Bye. Bye. Now.
- [57:18]
A
Bye. Bye.
- [57:19]
B
All right, friends, that's it for. For this show. Greg Kokel here for standard reason, give him heaven. All right. Just like Katie's doing.
- [57:41]
A
It.