One True Reality

Summary

Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast — “One True Reality”

Host: Greg Koukl
Date: January 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Greg Koukl dives into the nature of religious truth and addresses the prevalent idea in Western culture that all religions are simply matters of personal preference, or “ice cream”—as opposed to providing essential answers to the deepest human problems, “insulin.” Through analogies, biblical references, and engaging listener questions, Greg challenges relativistic thinking, discusses denominational insularity, examines how Christians should interpret claims about hearing from God, and considers the difference between healthy correction and spiritual abuse within the church.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Nature of Religious Truth: Ice Cream vs. Insulin

Timestamps: 00:28–10:17

• Different Worldviews: Greg explains how religions often make fundamentally different claims about reality, God, and the afterlife. Examples:
  • Christianity/Judaism/Islam teach heaven; Hinduism and Buddhism conceptualize the afterlife quite differently.
  • Buddhism is non-theistic; many Native American religions have their own creation stories.
• Main Insight: Each religion presents itself as explaining the way things really are, not just offering a comforting story.
• The “Ice Cream vs. Insulin” Analogy:
  • If religion is merely like choosing an ice cream flavor—purely subjective—then it’s nonsensical to claim one is “true.”
  • But if religion claims to cure or address a real problem, like insulin for diabetes, then truth is critical—there can be right and wrong answers.

Notable Quote:

“If religion is an ice cream kind of thing, it’s just a personal preference—not related to reality. ... But religions think about themselves like insulin—they’re tied to reality. ... They’re meant to be an antidote for whatever human problem there is because they give the right answer to what the problem is.”
— Greg Koukl (05:22)

• On Relativism: Greg argues our culture internalizes Marx’s view—“religion is the opiate of the people”—thus relegating it to the realm of preference and missing its reality claims.
• Explanatory Power: Christianity, he claims, explains the proliferation of alternate worldviews as deceptions meant to obscure the truth. Cites Paul in 2 Thessalonians: “People are deceived … because they didn’t love truth.” (08:56)

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2. Listener Call: Introducing Apologetics in a Restrictive Denomination

Timestamps: 10:17–24:49
Caller: Vincent, Torrance, CA

• Issue: Vincent wants to introduce apologetics to his American Baptist Association (ABA) church, but outsiders (even reputable apologists) are not permitted to speak due to strict denominational lines.
• Greg’s Response:
  • Expresses that such isolationism is “unfortunate,” limiting growth and unity within the body of Christ.
  • Suggests Vincent could start small groups or studies using existing apologetics materials—some of which Vincent has already done.
  • Recommends leveraging resources like “Stand to Reason University” and inviting interested church members to events like the Reality Conference.
• Advice for Navigating Disagreement in the Church:
  • Find “dry tinder”—members already interested in apologetics or truth—and start with them (20:00).
  • Encourages tactful engagement without waiting for institutional approval if that’s not possible.

Notable Quote:

“If you want to introduce apologetics to your church, you’ve got to do it with somebody who’s within the ABA … that would be you.”
— Greg Koukl (14:09)

Tension over “Political” Issues:

• Vincent shares that his pastor is wary of controversial issues (e.g., gender, abortion) for fear of upsetting members.

Greg’s View:

• Avoiding political topics allows the culture to set the church’s boundaries: “If pastors are committed to staying away from anything that has political ramifications, then all the other side has to do is to make an issue political and then the pastor has to wave away the white flag.” (22:18)
• Draws historical parallels with the church’s role in issues like slavery.

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3. Listener Call: Should Christians “Hear God Whisper”?

Timestamps: 27:57–45:28
Caller: Annalisa, Minnesota

• Question: How should Christians interpret stories of people who say God “whispered” to them? Should all believers expect such experiences?
• Greg’s Main Points:
  • Scripture & Normativity: There is no scriptural teaching or hint that God communicates by “whispering” to all believers as part of normal Christian life.
  • Experience ≠ Doctrine: “I don’t exegete experiences. … Just because it happened to you doesn’t mean this is something everyone else can expect to happen to them.” (32:24)
• Personal Example: Greg has never had such an experience in 50+ years as a Christian, despite evidence of God’s work in his life.
• Specific Testimonies: When confronted with a convincing story (e.g., a double pregnancy prediction at a prayer meeting), Greg responds: “Praise the Lord. … What do we learn from that? Nothing. … There is no authority to the experiences.” (45:08)

Notable Quotes:

“What does the Scripture teach? It does not teach—or hint or imply or insinuate in any way—that having a conversational relationship with God is normal for Christian living. That’s key.”
— Greg Koukl (32:31)

“We don’t establish our Christian principles, doctrine, teaching based on what other people say they experienced. … What has authority is the Scripture.”
— Greg Koukl (39:33)

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4. On Spiritual Abuse vs. Biblical Correction in the Church

Timestamps: 48:41–56:12
Caller: Louis, Mexico

• Question: Where’s the line between healthy correction by church leaders and spiritual abuse?
• Greg’s Guidance:
  • It’s right for pastors/elders to correct doctrine and behavior, but it must be done with humility and gentleness (citing Galatians 6:1 and 1 Peter 5).
  • Abuse includes heavy-handed authority, personal attacks, or behavior that discourages or “lords it over” others.
  • Correction should never be about pride or power, but about serving and guiding out of love and care.

Notable Quote:

“Are the pastors supposed to shepherd and discipline? Yes … but not as lording it over the flock. … Anything beyond that is, in my view, bordering on being … spiritually abusive.”
— Greg Koukl (55:56)

• Example: Criticizes a pastor’s wife for making a newcomer feel unwelcome based on clothing—calling it destructive and a form of abuse.

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On Culture Treating Religion as Subjective Preference:
  “The culture has taught us to conceptualize the world a certain way ... viewing religion like an ice cream kind of thing rather than an insulin kind of thing.” (07:00)
• On Why Denominational Isolation Is “Unhealthy”:
  “Whenever one group is saying, ‘yeah, we’re suspicious of anybody that’s not part of our little group’ ... I do not think that’s a healthy perspective.” (12:47)
• On Pastors Avoiding Specific Topics:
  “The job of the shepherds in the church [is] to lead the sheep safely through the storm. And you don’t do that by ignoring the issues.” (22:24)
• On Interpreting Stories of God “Speaking”:
  “God can do whatever he wants. … But we can’t teach whatever we want.” (31:00)
• On Authority in the Church:
  “Shepherd the flock ... not as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.” (1 Peter 5, cited at 53:51)

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Timestamps for Key Sections

• 00:28 — Ice Cream vs. Insulin analogy for religious truth
• 10:17 — Vincent asks about apologetics in the ABA
• 21:00 — Navigating controversial/political issues in church
• 27:57 — Annalisa calls about hearing from God
• 32:00–41:10 — Greg’s teaching: Do all Christians hear God “whisper”?
• 45:08 — How to process extraordinary spiritual experiences
• 48:41 — Louis asks about spiritual abuse vs. healthy correction
• 53:51 — 1 Peter 5 and the marks of healthy church authority

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Conclusion

Throughout the episode, Greg Koukl consistently pushes back against popular notions of relativism in religion, urging listeners to recognize the reality claims at stake. He provides practical advice to Christians navigating insular church cultures, reassures those who struggle with not “hearing from God,” and thoughtfully distinguishes between biblical correction and abuse within church leadership. With analogies, direct biblical grounding, and a tone both incisive and gracious, Koukl equips listeners to think more clearly—and act more wisely—about the challenges facing classical Christianity today.

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For more resources, recordings, and articles by Greg Koukl and Stand to Reason, visit str.org.

Transcript

[A]

All right, friends, Greg Kokel here, stand to reason. And I am still kind of cogitating about the conversation I had with my last caller, Michael, on the last show, which is a couple days prior for you, at least that. But it was just a few moments ago for me and it was a wonderful conversation. I look forward, Michael, to having you call back and we can pursue some of the other issues. But it reinforced for me the importance of thinking in the right way about these kinds of issues. And if we are not careful, we're going to fall into a way of thinking that raises problems regarding these questions that are artificial. And so I actually think this question how is it possible that there could be one way to heaven or whatever? And keep in mind, not all religions believe in heaven. The Judeo, Christian, Judaism and Christianity do, Islam does. But Hinduism, there's no heaven, not in the way that we think of it. And there's not a God in the way that we think of it. Those concepts are different because they're different worldviews. Buddhism, true, the same thing. In fact. Buddhism is a non theistic religion. God doesn't play a part. There are bodhisattvas. These are like elevated kind of religious beings of sorts that have attained higher levels of spirituality, but ultimately there's no God involved. And it's my understanding is if once you break out of the cycle of reincarnation and Buddhism, you just disappear. You're gone, no more suffering. Right. So it turns out that religions have in many cases entirely different takes on the nature of ultimate reality and things like life and death and the afterlife and the nature of spiritual beings and all of that. It's a full range. But I'll tell you, and this is what's so important, and I was emphasizing this with Michael, is that each one is offering implicitly, maybe they don't talk this way, but certainly implicitly this is the way the world is. It's not just, you know, a story. We, you know, a long, long time ago in a galaxy far, far away kind of thing. It's just a story that's fun for us. No, they think this is the case. Native American religions have these ideas about how the world came about and this is what they think took place and they'll talk about that. Or you have the Gilgamesh ethic epic rather, and this is their understanding of how everything started. Well, it didn't start in every way. It started in a way, and maybe it's the atheist way where it just all boomed into existence and that's it. And there's no spiritual about it. But there is a truth to the matter. There is a state of affairs that is a fact. And what religions are trying to do is capture that. And it was kind of interesting for me. What I thought was a bit of an aha moment that Michael had as we talked about these things, when I finally kind of brought it down to this analogy that I use ice cream and insulin. And I have been using that analogy for years and years and years because I think it's such a fruitful, useful way of looking at it. If religion is an ice cream kind of thing, it's just a personal preference. It not related to reality. It's related to personal likes, dislikes, whatever. Then you choose what you like. And it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to say that one religion is the true religion, any more than it makes any sense to say that one flavor of ice cream is the true and good and perfect flavor. Because it all depends on preferences. But notice the presumption that's being made there. And this is implicit. It's something that we have been acculturated to think about. It's the way we see things now, given the culturalization, the socialization that we've been done on religion. And what we've done is we've basically absorbed Karl Marx's view. Religion is the opiate of the people. But notice when you do that and view religion that way, you are relativizing religion, making ice cream out of it, but you are absolutizing something else. You are making an absolute claim, an insulin kind of claim, a claim about the way reality is, actually is. And that claim is Marx's claim there is no God. If there is no God, then it's all just a, you know, a crapshoot. It's a game. You do what you like, what feels good. You know, all things are. Who is it, Dostoevsky who said, if there is no God, all things are permitted? Okay, that may be the truth, but notice that it's not all ice cream. There is a fact to the matter. And if atheism is true, then all religion is flavors. Find what you like. That was, I think, the aha moment. It's like we are saying to people who are convinced that religion is like ice cream, that there's only one right flavor. And that's exactly how people are reacting. And when I teach on this truth is not ice cream, faith is not wishing. That's the talk. This is the point I'm making people hear. You're going to hell because you don't like Haagen Dazs butter pecan ice cream, which happens to be one that I like. Well, that's ridiculous. It is ridiculous, but that's not what we're saying. The culture has taught us to conceptualize the world a certain way. And I actually think that this is an example. And this would be an explanation for this diversity of ways of looking at things from within the context of my worldview. My worldview has explanatory power. So how do we explain all of that diversity? Well, there are powers of darkness that are meant to lie to you, and they find very clever ways and persuasive ways of lying to you. Now, we can get past the lies if we care to. A lot of people don't care to. And What Paul in 2 Thessalonians says, that people are deceived. Why? Because they didn't love truth. If you don't love truth, you're easy to be deceived. You fall for anything kind of thing. So I guess I'm recapping a little bit of what I think is the cogent takeaway from my conversation with Michael this last broadcast. But I don't want you to miss it. Religions do not think of themselves the way Americans think about religions. American thinks about religions like ice cream kind of things. Religions think about themselves like insolent kind of things. They're tied to reality. They're meant to be an antidote for whatever human problem there is because they give the right answer to what the problem is. They have the right assessment, and therefore they have the right antidote. And notice that all religions do that. There's a problem and there's an antidote. Here's the problem. Here's the antidote. Because everybody knows something's wrong with the world. I mean, that's a given. I mean, everybody except for the thoroughgoing atheist, the Alex o' Connors of the world, Richard Dawkins, because they have no grounding for morality in their atheistic worldview. And so there can't be anything wrong with the world. The world be the way it's not supposed to be evil, because there is no way that it is supposed to be, because there's no supposer. So they can't make sense of these features of reality that we can. But that's what they're stuck with, okay? That's their worldview. And it's this confusion, talking past each other, this influence of understanding religion like an ice cream kind of thing rather than an insulin kind of thing. That is what Prompts people to say, how is it even possible? How is it even coherent? How is it even, like, even imaginable that one religion could be right? Well, it's not imaginable for them because it's not imaginable that one flavor of ice cream can be right, because it can't be. But they're thinking about the wrong way about religion. They think of it like ice cream, not insulin. Because when it comes to diabetes, there are right answers to the problem. There are correct antidotes, and if you don't get them right, there's a price to pay, and it might be your life anyway. Okay, let's get to our callers here. Next in line, Vincent and Torrance, welcome to the show.

[B]

Hey, Greg, thanks for having me on. Appreciate you, man.

[A]

Okay, glad to have you on, too. I appreciate you. Thanks.

[B]

Hey, Greg. So I actually called before. I don't know if you remember my question. I mean, I know you have a lot, but it was regarding the strictness.

[A]

The answer to the question, do you remember? Is always the same.

[B]

No, that's fair.

[A]

I don't remember anything. So let's start from square one.

[B]

Yeah. So I did call before one time just regarding the strictness of my denomination. It was the American Baptist association, the aba, and how they wouldn't let anybody else like you or any other apologist come in and speak. So my question back then was, how do you know? I introduced kind of apologetics to my church.

[A]

So are you saying that the denomination itself is hostile to apologetics, and your church being part of the denomination, is also harsh to oppose to apologetics?

[B]

They're not opposed to apologetics. They're just opposed to anybody outside of the aba. American Baptist Association.

[A]

Oh, I see. Are you inside of the aba?

[B]

I am, yes.

[A]

Okay, so you have access. Do you know, are there any others? I think it's a little odd. I'm just saying. But it's a little odd to say, well, if you're outside of our group, we're not going to let you speak to our group. That's odd because it doesn't. In my view, that's not a very robust understanding of the body of Christ. Okay, so I go to Living Oaks Church. Right. I don't go to your church. But as far as I'm concerned, you're my brother in Christ. From what I know about you, not very much, but that's my presumption. And we got two guys on our team that go to a Lutheran church. Okay, I don't go to Lutheran church. They do but they're still my brothers in Christ for the moment. Looking at one of them right now through the glass here, because we're all members of the larger body, and whenever one group is saying, yeah, we're suspicious of anybody that's not part of our little group, so to speak, I do not think that's a healthy perspective. But any event, that's what we're dealing with here. So do you know how big is the. This particular denominational group? Did you say it's the American Bible association or what?

[B]

American Baptist Association.

[A]

Baptist. Okay. Is it small or large? I don't.

[B]

It's. I mean, like, good amount. Size. Because there's other churches within. We do go nationwide because we have. All over Northern California, Southern. We have other churches in different states.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. Okay. I'm just. So it's not just, like one church for. It's not one community, local church. And that's the whole church. That's the whole denomination. So it's like. But they're not sbc, like, Southern Baptists. That would be a different group. And so they probably would not be interested because Southern Baptists are not American Baptists. They probably wouldn't want to mingle, apparently. Is that right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's odd. I think that's unfortunate. Okay. Because the sbc, the Southern Baptist Convention, have lots of people that are part of it that do apologetics. In fact, I participated with Eric Hernandez in Texas a number of times with their Texas Baptist Apologetics Enterprise, and they had conferences and whatever. So this strikes me as unusual. But nevertheless, I think the answer is if you want to introduce apologetics to your church, you've got to do it with somebody who's. With the. What? The aba? Is that right? The American Baptist Association. Right. So that would be you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And maybe others, too, but at least you. So is there any way you could find out if there's any other American Baptist association apologists?

[B]

I don't think there is, like, specifically, really. Because what we do is. We do. We do because I asked our pastor and we do.

[A]

Wait, you do what? Say that again. I'm sorry.

[B]

We do use other material from, you know, non ABA people. You know, it's just our pastor. We have to just filter in, you know, certain things. We have to be the filter.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, and because I even request, hey, can we maybe even invite, like, a great Coco Jay Warner Wallace or somebody to speak? And he's like, well, they're not aba, so we. I don't know what they could say. And you Know, because he's our pastor, we could do it. But the other. The whole association may have issues with our local body doing something like that. Yeah, yeah. But we do use other material. We just kind of, I guess, filter in a sense.

[A]

Well, this. I think this is. It's unfortunate a number of ways, but this is one of them that really limits the Christians who traffic in a certain expertise from helping your local communities in the ABA to benefit from that expertise. So you're kind of like behind the eight ball a little bit here, Vincent. And I mean, of course, what I was working up to a little bit is you're somebody that they would at least in principle approve of because you're ABA person and you know some things about apologetics. So you listen to this show and you mentioned a couple of authors there, and so you may be in a position yourself to do some teaching on apologetics or to run a group. Now, it might be with a. A lot of times groups do book studies and have discussions or whatever. And maybe I'm just thinking for myself, like Story of Real, for example. Well, that's not apologetics so much, but even the tactics, there are video treatments. Sonervan is published, and I'm doing the teaching. I'm the talking head. But you could have a group and interact with the study guides and stuff like that. I don't know if the ABA would be happy with whatever I teach there. But this is a way of beginning to introduce apologetics. If you don't feel you're up to it yourself personally, you can, you know, plug and play with a website or something like that. We have our. Actually, we have. We have our. I should have mentioned this before. Our standard Reason University sgru, we got a whole raft of courses that people can use, and they do.

[B]

You took one of your classes. Oh, sorry.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

Well, Engaging Muslims with Alan. Yeah, that was really good.

[A]

Oh, that's. Well, that's the kind of thing that a group can do, not just an individual. So that would be a way of saying, in your local community, saying, hey, Pastor, is it okay if I see who's interested in one of these courses and we meet together at my house for the next five weeks? I don't know if you need permission for that from the leadership or not, but that would be a way of getting started. And not all of the classes are apologetics, but I think most of them are. And so that might be a way of getting your foot in the door, so to speak. I don't know. What. What do you think about that idea.

[B]

No, yeah, I, I, I love that actually. And I actually I, I read through your tactics book. I love it. I appreciate everything you did with just that book just in itself. And I actually got the whole, I think it was the study guide and the video series.

[A]

Oh, good. Well, that's.

[B]

Go through it again.

[A]

Okay, great. Perfect.

[B]

Yeah. So, because I want to, you know, further my knowledge first, you know, before I just kind of just blindly go out there and try to do with my church.

[A]

Vincent, you've got the video series for tactics. So you want to go through Again, just invite 10 people over to go through it with you. I don't know if you need the church's approval of that or not. I mean, I hope it wouldn't be the case that they're going to micromanage all that, but you just call your friends up and have them come over, over to your home, not to the church and anything wrong with that?

[B]

No, no. Even our pastor, he's not so much with that because I invited a good group of ours to Unshaken last year with Frank Turek and I'm inviting a few of them. A couple of us already signed up for your Reality Conference in Downey in April. Yeah. So you know, it's not so much micromanaging that.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, that's okay. Well that's great. And that'll be great in Downey where we have the Reality Conference in what, February, March, April, towards the end of April. That's great. Well, it looks to me like you've got some ideas and you're moving forward on some of those ideas. So that's great, that's great. Go ahead.

[B]

So just kind of maybe just using kind of materials that are available, inviting people for studies in my house or even just kind of something kind of just kind of low key of the

[A]

church or going with you to the reality in Downey, I mean, yeah, that's, you're in torrent, so you're within striking distance, that's fine. And those are all ways to get going. Now I talk about the tactics. The last chapter, more training, less blood, More Sweatless blood is the title of that chapter. The idea is you sweat more in training, then you bleed less in battle kind of thing. And in there I do suggest about finding people in your church community that are what I call dry tinder. In other words, there are people who are already kind of showing an interest and you make common cause with that smaller group of people and maybe you invite them to reality. And you guys, four or five of you or whatever. Get tickets. By the way, the sooner you get tickets, the better because we're selling out like crazy. Dallas is already sold out. Well, last I checked, 211 seats left in the overflow room, and I think they hold close to 3,000 people. So these things are going. But right now, lots of room in Southern Cal, but that would be a thing. If you have a sense of some of these people, then you all go as a group, four, five, six of you or whatever. Now something like reality could start that fire with that dry tinder and then you can go from there.

[B]

Yeah, no, that's. That's great. I really appreciate that, Greg, all that advice, because my one concern my pastor did have real quick, so I don't want to get too much. Your time was because he doesn't believe that we all need to be united with the cause of the truth. Because he knows within the local body, some members are leftist and they hold, you know, a non Christian worldview on certain things. So when we talk about, you know, issues of, you know, gender, abortion, whatever else, he knows it's gonna cause some ways, but he's not worth. Well, we can't speak about this because we need to speak truth. And he's mentioned his sermons, but he knows specific courses or stuff like that. Will.

[A]

Wait, wait. I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that your pastor. Maybe I'm completely missing this. Are you saying that your pastor is a little reluctant about some things because he knows there are people in the church that might disagree on issues like abortion and transgender and stuff, and he doesn't want to ruffle feathers, something like that is what you're saying.

[B]

In a sense, he wants to come about it in a tactful way. That's kind of what I got from him because he, when we talked about it too, because he's, you know, he wants to keep the focus on the gospel and doesn't want issues of, quote, politics to detract from the gospel?

[A]

Well, yeah, this is really unfortunate, putting it that way. I understand entirely what you mean. But if pastors are committed to staying away from anything that has political ramifications, then all the other side has to do is to make an issue political and then the pastor has to wave away the white flag. Okay, we give up. And this is exactly what has happened. Look at marriage. Didn't used to be political. Now it is. Same sex marriage, gender, what's a boy and what's a girl? Take a look. What did the doctor say? Swat on the butt. It's a Boy swat on the butt. It's a girl. That's easy. That's not assigned. They didn't assign that at birth. You don't assign a penis or a vagina. It comes with the package. But now the left has taken over, and now look at what they're doing. It is part of the job of the shepherds in the church to lead the sheep safely through the storm. And you don't do that by ignoring the issues. And there may be some things he doesn't want to talk about. Okay, but look, if he. We were. What about a pastor before the Civil War? Slavery. Would it be appropriate for a pastor? Was that a political issue? Yeah, it divided the entire country. It divided it literally. They split it right in two in the north and South. We had a big battle. In fact, more people were killed, Americans were killed in the Civil War than any other war, because everyone who died in that conflict was an American. Okay, would he have been silent on that issue because it was political? You know, I don't know what he'd say, but most people would say no. Well, how is the abortion issue any different? Because now you're killing the human being that is disenfranchised. You're not just enslaving them, you're killing them anyway. That's another issue. I get that. But just hang in there and try some of those things out that we talked about and maybe call me back and tell me how you're doing.

[B]

I appreciate it. Thank you so much.

[A]

Okay, just don't ask me, do you remember? Instead, you could say, I'm the guy who called who said, I'm trying to figure out a way, and you said this, and here's now what's happened. How's that?

[B]

That's a better.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

Thank you so much.

[A]

All right, Vincent, great talking to you. I appreciate it. Bye bye now.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

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or the Google Play Store. Hey friends, would you like to be encouraged throughout your week with timely, relevant content meant to bolster your knowledge, wisdom and character? Or maybe you have a desire to be connected with other like minded Christians from around the world? If so, then you need to follow stand to reason on social media. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. Not only will you be able to interact with other stantries and followers, but you'll also stay up to date and informed on our latest resources and events. In our current culture, it's important to have something of value to break up your social media feed. So just visit str.org and find the links to all of our social media platforms at the bottom of the homepage. So Amy has been checking online to see where I have written about Truth is not Ice Cream. And she can't find anything, which is kind of a mystery to both of us since I've been speaking on it for so long. And sometimes I'm scratching around for what's the next topic for a solid ground, which is the more extensive piece on alternating months, the odd months, like January, March, May, July. You know, solid ground, the alternating months, the even months. We have a shorter piece of mentoring letter. You sure I didn't do that? Huh? So maybe I ought to take my talk and collapse my notes into an article. It's an idea, we'll see. But certainly I've taught on it and do we have recordings or anything like that? It's my way of kind of using an analogy to explain relativism. Now I have written a book on relativism with Frank Beckwith and that's principally on moral relativism. And I don't think that I developed the kind of the ice cream illustration there. So I don't know. So if you want to go to our website, I'm sure that there are some things that are written down, but Amy's if Amy can't find it, it's not there. I don't know. All right, let's go back to the calls. And this is Annalisa in Minnesota. Hello Annalisa.

[C]

Hi Greg. Super grateful for your ministry and thanks for taking my call.

[A]

Oh, you're welcome. And by the way, where in Minnesota are you?

[C]

Just west of the Twin Cities, actually. My husband and I had the chance to meet you at Grace Church.

[A]

Great. My daughter is scheduled to be a sophomore in the fall at Bethel University there.

[C]

Oh, no way. I know a lot that graduated from Bethel. I'm a Northwestern grad, so there's, you know.

[A]

Oh, yeah, they're actually not very far from each other.

[C]

No, just down, just down the road from each other.

[A]

Yeah, a couple of miles. But those were the alternatives. I don't know what your view is, but the, the skinny that I got is that Bethel is more conservative in general than Northwestern. Would you agree with that or not?

[C]

You know, maybe. Now, I graduated in 2011, and I would say it was flipped back then.

[A]

Well, it's 15 years later.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Things change.

[C]

So our joke was, we used to tell people at Bethel, we're like, well, you know, the Bible says, go to Bethel and spin.

[A]

Okay, well, she'll be there in the fall. In fact, she just spent most of Christmas vacation just after Christmas and over New Year's in Northern Wisconsin, where we have a place and we have friends. Now, she wasn't at the place that's winterized. I mean, it's shut down for the winter. But we have some very close friends there, a number of families, and she stayed with one of her best friends for 10 days and did the Northern Wisconsin winter wonderland deal, and she survived. She's willing to face three. Three more northwoods winters. Minnesota is maybe just a little bit milder, but not much. I mean, the Twin Cities is what I mean.

[C]

Yeah, she's in for an adventure, but she's going to have a great time

[A]

at Bethel, my family, I'm sure. Yeah. Okay. So what's on your mind?

[C]

So your ministry, in particular, the topic of God whispering has just been really helpful and. Yeah. Fascinating to just kind of think through how the church talks about this.

[A]

Right.

[C]

And just the whole topic. So. But as I continue to process and discern that topic, my particular question for you is, when we hear stories that sound like God really did whisper to someone, what do we do with them? Because it can be tempting. You know, when I hear stories, I can think, oh, I'm. I'm missing out. Or, you know, I. To seek out this kind of communication with God. Especially when those, those stories are super convincing. Because, of course, you hear stories where you're like, I think you're just attributing God to your own thoughts.

[A]

Right, right. But then something remarkable happens. Right, right.

[C]

Yeah, exactly. Where, you know, it's like, I don't know how to actually argue with.

[A]

Well, I, I, my policy is I don't argue with them. In other words, I don't take that on. I just kind of let it roll off. But if I have to deal with it, like, no, I'm of a biblical theological opinion. There's a couple of things that I'll say about this. And when I teach on this, I always make this disclaimer. Actually, there are two of them. One of them is God can do anything he wants. God can do anything he wants. If he wants to talk to you through a leprechaun speaking Greek who lives under your bed, that's up to him. Okay? But we can't teach whatever we want. So that's the first thing. If we are going to teach what Christians should expect out of relationship with God, we have to provide that information from the text. All right, so that's the first part. The second part is I don't exegete experiences. So I'm going to teach this stuff. I tell the audience, blah, blah, blah. And some of you are going to say, well, wait a minute. You raise your hand, but what happened to me? And my response is, well, I don't know what happened to you. And I'm not going to exegete that because God can do whatever he wants. But because it happened to you doesn't mean that this is something that everyone else can expect to happen to them.

[B]

Them.

[A]

And just because it's not happening to them but is happening to you, presumably. So I'm going to address this most charitably, presuming that God spoke to them however they want to characterize it, it doesn't mean he's going to do that for everybody else. What does the scripture teach? It does not teach or hint or imply or insinuate in any way, shape or form that having a conversational relationship with God is normal for Christian living. That's key. Amy, write that down. I'll use that in the book. She's looking at me like, wait a minute. Just timestamp it, at least for me, because there's this presumption because of Christian culture and the way people talk, that God is talking to everybody and telling them what to do and how to live and what decisions to make. And whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper, whisper. Ironically, the working title for the book that addresses this that I'm going to work on this year more is Does God Whisper? Now, we actually do not have any examples in Scripture of God whispering, nudge, nudge, hint, hint. We don't have that. None. Now, there are some places where this is in Ezra, Nehemiah, for example, maybe Nehemiah, where he talks about what the Lord laid on his heart, but he doesn't say God ever told him to do this. And in fact, one time it's a pagan leader that talks about do whatever God has laid on your heart. And there's a place in the book of Revelation where the laid on their heart language is used of non Christians. Is that right, Amy? I think you showed that to me. Lay down your heart language used of non Christian in the book of Revelation. Something like that. Anyway, I wrote an article about this is it last year. It's called When God Speaks, When God Speaks and that came out, that's on our website. And my point was what are the biblical characteristics of God communicating individually to people? What we do not find in scripture is this whisper, whisper, nudge, nudge business or the thing that people say, well God is trying to speak to you but you're not listening. That's non existent. In the Bible there was nobody that God spoke, attempted to speak to that he didn't get through to. Because God doesn't try, he does. Trying implies failure. So these are the kind of points that I make in teaching around this issue. If I'm talking with somebody and somebody says, oh the Lord told me, blah, blah, blah, okay, well you've got to take responsibility if that's what you think he said for you to do. And God told me to go to Bethel, not Northwestern because Northwestern screwed up. You know, I don't know, you know, so you know, or the opposite. I remember my son went to Westmont many years ago, 25 years ago, 20 some years ago that he graduated. It's a different school now on the west coast in Santa Barbara. But at graduation somebody was talking about trying to make the decision of where they were going to send their kid. And somebody sitting next to them in church just leaned over and said Westmont. They were not privy to the conversation that this man was having with his wife. That person just said Westmont out of nowhere. They took that as a word from God and that's why their kid ended up at Westmont. Now I think that's. Could that happen? Sure, could be God, whatever, I don't know. But it's not exactly a model for behavior because what if the person was hungry and leaned over to the dad and said McDonald's would his dad said, oh, I guess the Lord's telling us you're going to have a career at McDonald's, you're not going to college, you're going to flip burgers.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Now they wouldn't have done that, I suspect. But you see the problem there. And anyway, it's not the way it was done in the Bible. And There are lots and lots of people who hear this kind of talk and then think, oh my goodness, what's wrong with me?

[C]

Right?

[A]

Because as far as I know, God hasn't been talking to me. Well, if God were talking to you, you'd know it because nobody mistakes that in Scripture because God doesn't whisper. Now, can God get us to do things in subtle ways? Oh, sure, there are all kinds of things that he has at his disposal. I'm just writing this down. Can God get us to do things? Because I want to put that in the book in subtle ways. Okay? And the answer is yes, of course he can do. Just like in Nehemiah, ex post facto. He's looking back and he's acknowledging that the thing that he had a desire to do was something that God actually placed in his heart. And I have never had God talk to me in any way, shape or form that people might construe as that. I've never had that kind of experience. Now, I am 50, what, three years, 52 years old in Christ and have the work that I have, which people think is an evidence of God working. But I've never heard from God. But I'll tell you what, when I look back at our initiation of Stand to reason on May 1, 1993, was God in that? Yeah, he's in that. I didn't know at the time whether he was in it, but I know now. And I also can say confidently, God put it on my heart to start Stand to Reason, but I didn't have to hear from him in order to draw that conclusion expos facto. And actually, I think that's what's going on with Nehemiah or whoever else makes that comment. God's sovereign working. But I don't have to learn the skill of recognizing his voice in order to get direct instructions from him that I need to get to live my Christian life. So back to the main point. What I was saying regarding these things, I just ignore it when people make these comments. I just let it go. I'm not going to get in a big fight most of the time. Normally it's inconsequential. Normally it's like my conviction. I'm hearing this, I think, well, that's their own head. They're just hearing their own thoughts. But it's not going to do me any good to take exception with it. But when I do teach on the issue, I say God can do whatever he wants. And I don't exegete experiences. We don't establish our Christian principles, doctrine Teaching based on what other people say they experienced. It doesn't have authority. What has authority is the scripture. And when you go to the scripture, you don't see any of this stuff.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And this is why it was, you know, according to Ji Packer, who's no slouch, this practice is less than 200 years old. It's a recent development in the church, so don't lose any sleep about it. One of the reasons I want to go through the extra work here of writing this book. Writing is hard for me, but one of the reasons I want to do it is because there are so many people that are feeling substandard as Christians because everybody else seems to be hearing from God but them. And then they may even question their salvation, you know, certainly their spirituality.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Can I share really briefly, just a story? I think your answer that you don't exegete experience will be your response to this. But it was an interesting one that I heard, so I just want to share it.

[A]

Okay, sure.

[C]

A woman that I don't know, I was on the phone with her for work. She was like, I got to tell you a cool story. She said, my. My daughter, she was struggling to get pregnant. And she said, mom, I want to go to the prayer meeting at church with you. They want to pray about getting pregnant. So the lady said, I brought my daughter to the church, the prayer meeting, and my prayer partner was there. So we started praying over my daughter. And then my prayer partner was like, I'm getting something. And I said, well, what are you getting? And she said, I feel like the daughter, she's going to have a baby. And then she kept praying. And the prayer partner said, I'm getting another thing. And so this lady I was talking to asked her, what are you getting? And then this lady replied, her brother's wife is going to have a baby. And then this woman said, and then I felt like the Lord was saying to me, both of the babies are going to be born on the same day. And then the lady I was talking to, she goes, wouldn't, you know, nine months later, my daughter and my son had babies on the same day. And it was. Yeah, it just really threw me off because I was like, oh, that. That seems like an extra layer than just the, oh, God's whispering to me. It was like this prayer meeting, healing. And it just. It kind of threw me off in looking at the lens of this.

[A]

Okay, well, I have no reason to deny, given the kind of, what might be called specified complexity of this Answer. It's very detailed and very specific. And presumably, you know, both got pregnant and the children were both born on the same day. Right. So what they said was going to complete come through. Did. So what do I do with that? I say, praise the Lord. That's it. What do we take away from that? We don't take anything away from that, because here's what we hear. Notice he says, I'm getting something. I think I'm getting something. As if, like, there's a little message that is coming through. You don't have anything like that in the Old Testament. Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? Whoa. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And Saul wasn't even regenerate, for goodness sake. And he wasn't seeking any revelation.

[B]

It.

[A]

They weren't praying about anything. So now God chose to do this this way. Okay, I'm not going to argue with him, but what you can't do is use that as some kind of model. And most of the time, if people say I'm getting something like that, I'm just going to ignore it. Now, it turned out this is testable, and everything turned out just the way it was apparently revealed there at that prayer meeting. But, you know, here's the other half. Okay. And it's far bigger than the other half is. All of these times wherein God's giving this. I feel I'm getting something kind of deal, and nothing comes of it.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Then what? Okay, so. Well, then you weren't getting anything, were you? What were you getting? You were getting something from somewhere, but it wasn't from God because it didn't happen. And so we tend to remember the times it works or comes through or seems to be a justification for the view. But I'm not going to take exception with this because it's specified complexity, it's very particular detailed, and it came to pass just in this particular detailed way. So, okay. Praise the Lord. What do we learn from that? Nothing. We learned that God revealed something in an answer to prayer, and it came to pass. That's all we learned from it. That's it.

[C]

Yep. That's helpful.

[A]

And for people to draw conclusions any further than that is to draw a conclusion based on the wrong source. There is no authority to the experiences.

[C]

Sure. That makes sense.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

All right, good. Good talking to you, and I appreciate. Maybe we'll chat again.

[C]

Yep, Sounds good.

[B]

Great.

[A]

Okay, Annalise. Bye. Bye, now.

[C]

Bye.

[A]

All right, we got, let's see, 10 minutes to go here. Let's go to Lewis and Louis. You're In Mexico. Is that correct, Louis? I just pushed the right button. Are you there, Louis? I'm going to put Louis on hold. Amy, can you do it just so I don't lose him? Because maybe he's gone away from the phone for a moment and so, Louis, you're back on hold. I'm going to take a break. Quick one and then we'll come back to you or someone else. Stay with us.

[C]

Have you ever wondered how Stand to Reason is able to produce fresh, accessible content each week? We rely on generous donors so that we can provide you with the tools and tactics you need to be an effective ambassador for Christ. If you've benefited from this podcast or any of our donor provided resources, including our apps, blog posts, articles and short videos, consider making a financial contribution to Stand to Reason today. Just visit str.orgdonate to show your financial support. It has been an honor providing you with a host of free resources for more than 27 years to help you give voice to the Christian worldview. Help us continue by making a financial gift [e-mail] donate friends, if you like

[A]

this broadcast, I know you'll love Strask. It's our shorter 20 minute podcast where I am paired with the wonderful Amy hall, and together we answer the questions you send us on Twitter. Strask is released twice a week, Mondays and Thursdays, and it's only about 20 minutes long, so it's perfect to listen to on your morning jog or while driving around running errands or cleaning your garage, or just. Just plain loafing at home. Amy and I tackle your questions on theology and ethics and culture and lots more, offering our insight on the questions you're asking or the challenges you face. You can listen on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download your own shows. Just remember, send us your questions on Twitter using the name of the podcast, Strask. That's STRS Mask. All righty. You know, it looks like that other call is just gonna be really hard to understand, so let's. I don't know what to do here. Can I speak with Joe in Riverside? Okay. Amy's kind of working through it here. If you call in and I have a hard time hearing you, it makes it really difficult. So. So which one? Number five. Okay. All right. This is Louis in Mexico. Is that right?

[B]

Yeah, that's right. It's me.

[A]

Okay, Louis. All right, good. Welcome to the show. Glad you called. What's on your mind?

[B]

Okay, so can you hear me okay?

[A]

Yeah, I can. What's on your mind is what I

[B]

Said, okay, thank you, Jeff.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

So here's my question.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

So I know pastors and leaders are commanded to challenge the people to, like, teach them what's true. Teach them what the Bible says. Teach them, like, if they're doing something wrong. Right. But here my question is how? Where's the fine line? I mean, where's that line that divides like, good teaching? Good. Like good teaching and spiritual abuse?

[A]

Well, okay, that's not always easy to tell because abuse takes different forms. It could be the way people are treating other people. Okay, So I have a friend who, after she became a Christian, went to church and was dressing as nicely as she could. But when she came to the church and she was greeted by the church pastor, his wife, rather, his wife gave her the look up and down and said, well, we're going to have to do something about your wardrobe. In other words, you're not dressed nice enough to be in our church. Well, that's kind of rude. Instead of welcoming her, she immediately is getting what I would say is an abusive response. Okay? Now, another kind of abuse is when. When there is an excessive amount of authority being wielded by the pastor or the pastoral staff. And there have been lots of occasions of this in the past, whole movements, discipleship movements, where there are some groups now that are aberrant, that have this idea that the pastor is in charge of everybody. And the pastoral staff and the elders, we get to tell you what God's will is for your life, and you have to obey us. And if you don't obey us, then we're going to make life really hard on you or we're going to kick you out. Now, that's abusive. That's an abusive power. Now, the pastoral staff is supposed to provide correction, doctrinal correction, for one. If people are teaching wrong things, especially in the church, it is the job of the elders to silence the false teaching. Now, you find that, I think, in either Titus 1 or First Timothy 1, where there are guidelines for elders, there are people teaching things they should not be teaching and they should be silenced. And this is why elders have to have the ability to silence bad teaching. So that's what needs to be done. And silencing bad teaching isn't itself abusive. Now, it can be done in an abusive kind of way with an attitude that's not right. And this sometimes happens, too. So if you read in Galatians, chapter six, there is a verse there that talks about correcting people. And what it says there is, if you ever find somebody in a trespass it says, you who are spiritual, correct such a one. And then it adds this, it says, looking to yourself lest you also be tempted. So notice how here is a correction that needs to happen. Somebody's not living the way they ought to live. But the correction needs to be done in a gentle fashion and in a self reflective fashion, looking to yourself that you don't be tempted because we're all human. Human right. We're all human. And so that's another element there that's involved. So yes, it's right to correct, it's right to correct doctrine, it's right to correct behavior. But the correction has to be done in an appropriate way, with grace, with kindness, with humility. And we are supposed to, to a degree, obey the shepherds that are over us, okay? But that has its limits as well. Now here it says in first Peter, chapter five, you might make a note of this. It says, you young, verse five of chapter five. And following here, you younger men likewise be subject to your elders, clothe yourselves with humility. So that's the way we should be, subject to elders. But before that it says, Let me see, Peter is saying, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God, and not for sordid gain, not because you make a lot of money, but with eagerness. Nor yet, as this is verse three now, nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples of the flock. So he's saying, yeah, you're in charge, but be careful, don't be like a heavy handed Lord over them. But show your shepherding capability by being a servant to the flock and the younger men. You respond respectfully of the elders and the pastors, and not in a proud way. He says, clothe yourself, all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another. For God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble. So there, I think in that passage in 1 Peter 5, you have an antidote. You know, you have a bunch of details, pieces of the puzzle that help. Are we supposed to be. Are the pastors supposed to shepherd and discipline? Yes, and sometimes that means correcting wrong teaching, sometimes it means correcting wrong behavior, other times, but not as, you know, lording it over the flock, Peter puts it, but as being a servant. And when you're correcting, correct with grace and humility, looking to yourselves lest you also be tempted, okay? That's the shepherd's responsibility. Anything beyond that is, in my view, bordering on being, you know, spiritually Abusive.

[B]

Abusive.

[A]

Spiritually abusive. So that's. I mean, that's kind of the way I would kind of break this down. I mean, we're almost out of time here, but this gives you a sense of it. Sometimes it's hard to tell. A lot of it is in the attitude that people express. And there should be grace. I think this pastor's wife who dressed down pun, I guess there, the. The young lady who went into the church for not being dressed fancy enough. She wasn't being dressed in a. In a, like, a inappropriate way. She just wasn't dressed up. And so to put her down and make a comment like that was very destructive to this friend of mine. So anyway, that gives you a little bit of a, you know, some handles on this issue of proper correction that the shepherds should do, but also the care that needs to be given to those shepherds not to abuse their power. I hope that helps you a bit there, Louis. All right, there's my music. Time for heading out. Thanks so much for being part of the show. Greg Koukl here for Stan, the recent Give him Heaven. Bye bye now.

[B]

Sam.