← Stand to Reason Weekly Podcast
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Sam.
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All right, Friends. Great. Cool. And I just realized that, wow, it's getting into close to within striking distance of Reality season, and we're really excited about this year's Reality. And we used to have the first reality of the season in SoCal, and we switched things around. Now SoCal is the last of the season. It's not September, it's February, March, April. All right, so that's coming up April 27th in SoCal, specifically the 23rd and 24th. But at Atlanta, Georgia is where we have our September launch of reality now. And 9-11-12. Yep. 91 1, 9-11-12 Friday night and all day Saturday is our launch of this year's Reality. And we have already opened up signups for that, and people are already signing up. We're pushing towards 500 already for Georgia September. We're not even out of July yet, and we're already taking lots of people for Atlanta. We just want to let you know about it and let me give you the dates because we're so thrilled and so thrilled with the people who go to Reality, and we're so proud of what we are able to give you. In fact, the last season, every Reality sold out, except for the two that were in new locations. One was Georgia, one was SoCal, but prior to that, we were selling out SoCal. That's where we started Realities. So Reality Student apologetics conferences. If you're not up to speed on this, maybe you're new listening. This is our way of passing the baton. Because in our view, the most important generation is always the next generation. Let me say that again. The most important generation is always the next generation, because we who now hold the baton are running the race and we have to hand it off. And that's what discipleship is. The things that you have heard, Paul says to Timothy, the things that you've learned from me in the presence of many witnesses. There's no secrets here. These entrust to faithful people who will be able to teach others. Also see the baton being passed. Paul to Timothy. Timothy, to faithful brothers and sisters. Faithful brothers and sisters to others. Those are all next generation. I mean, that certainly entails that, right? And so our goal as an organization that does what we do, we train Christians to think more carefully and to make a defense for classical Christianity, classical Christian values, an evenhanded, gracious defense. That's what we do. That's our mission. We have an intentional effort to do that with the next generation. And that's why. Oh, youth conference. Mean like college? No, I mean like middle school, like 15, 16, 17, 18, middle school, high school age. Because after they're out of high school, chances are pretty good that if they're on their way out, they're already out of Christianity. You're closing the gate while they're already gone. The horse is out, right? So what we're doing with Reality Reality Student Apologetics Conference is to keep them with the Lord and answer their questions and teach them what they're up against in the culture and the challenges that they face. And so we candidly deal with all kinds of issues many other organizations, apologists, whatever, aren't willing to deal with, certainly not in a group setting at a conference. And it's okay. They're doing things that are important. And I don't diss them. I'm just saying we cover these things. And so the things with the worldview issues, who's in charge, the authority of Scripture, what does it mean to be me? And that all touches on all kinds of transgender and sexual issues and stuff like that. Well, we are talking about those things all the time. You know that I talk about them here on the show. And we are equipping your children and your grandchildren to think in a Christian worldviewishly weighty about all those things, that they are understanding the nature of reality. They're seeing reality as it actually is, and they are able to navigate reality and help others to see that too. That's why we have a conference. This conference starts at what, about 6:30? Is that when the 6 o'?
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Clock?
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I think maybe it's 5 o'. Clock. The doors open because there's a mob of people outside. But anyway, we get started going about 6:30 and it doesn't end until 10:30 that first night. That's dense. And then we're rolling again at 9 the next morning and we don't stop until 5:30, quarter to 6 in the evening. That's dense. It's fabulous, though. And people keep coming back. Whole groups keep coming back. Why? Because they're getting fed in a way that local churches are certainly not, are often not capable of feeding them. We're there to help them, to help you if you're a local church leader. I remember we had Dallas one year and we saw a picture on social media where a couple of big vans loaded with young people from St. Louis o Dark 30 Friday morning had signs in their van, dallas or bust. And off they went to be able to make the beginning of reality on Friday night, which they did. We saw them there. It was great. So here's the Rundown. We try to box the compass, and I realize Middle America's left out. Sorry. I don't know how we're going to fix that. It'd be great to have something in Ohio and in Denverish, Cincinnati, Dayton, Denver, something like that. We don't. But here's what you got. Atlanta, Georgia, September 11 and 12. Seattle, Washington, October 16 and 17. And by the way, if you register for Seattle, which sold out one month early last year, it's a smaller venue. If you register before August 21st, you can save $20 per ticket. Just saying. Then our big one In Minneapolis, Minnesota, November 13th and 14th. Huge. The largest church in the state, Grace Church, Eden Prairie. They're wonderful people. We've been there for a long time. We sold it out. 4,100. Yep, you heard it right, 4,100. That's November 13 and 14. Then Dallas, Texas, we take some break over Christmas, New Year's, and we're back at it in February 19 and 20 at Dallas. We had over 3,000 last year. Sold it out. Philly, March 12th and 13th. Sold it out. Los Angeles, April 23rd, 24th, Calvary Chapel, Downey. And that was our first year. We didn't sell it out, but we probably will this year. Just saying. So mark your calendars if you're in striking distance. We did an analysis about where people are coming from, depending on the venue. Some venues, one venue had only about six states represented. Another one had 30. I think that was Texas. 33. Zero states represented. Then the others fall somewhere in between. Young people love this and they keep coming back. And so I will invite you to one of our six realities that will be taking place from September 26th through April 27th. Details are at realityapologetics.com how about that? Reality apologetics.com love to have you on board. Okay, let's see. What are we doing? Oh, I think we're going to do some open mic. Right? All right. Bearded beast says thumbs up to that. Let me see my list. What are open mic calls? That's when you call, not when I'm on the air, which I am now live, because it is our live segment when I'm here, Tuesdays 4 to 6, during which you can call 562-424-8714. And if you're listening live, live streaming and like to talk to me, there it is. I'm right here waiting for your call. 562-424-8714. And in the future, you want to talk to me. There you go. Four to Six Tuesdays now. You may not be able to thread the needle time wise. Fine. You can go to our website, HSTR.org, our homepage. Look up podcasts right there. Drop down menu live podcast and you'll find some prompts for open mic calls. And then you could just tell me what your questions are. All right, that that's doable. So what are we going to do here? I'm going to go to Kristen because Kristen has a question about karma. That's a nice alliteration, isn't it? Okay, Kristen, what's on your mind?
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Hi, Greg, my name is Kristen and I'm calling to see how you would respond to people casually just referencing karma or karma type ideas just when you're out and about. I had two instances in the last month where it's kind of come up once with a Target employee who I had done something that they saw as really honest and genuine and they were kind of surprised by. And so they said that I had now had good, that was going to come return back to me. And I didn't really know what to say there. The other instance was with a neighbor and talking about how we came to get the rental we're in at just such a great price and all that. And she said that we were good people and that good things come to good people. Both felt very, very karma like. And I didn't quite know what to say. I know that karma isn't in alignment with Christianity, but I don't know how in a simple conversation how to discuss that in a way that's respectful and curious, Inquisitive.
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Yeah.
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I'm assuming you would probably have a question for that person. I'm not really sure, but I'm just wondering what are some ways when you have encountered people bringing up karma like concepts that you've asked questions to put that little pebble in their shoe and make them think.
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Yeah.
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Thanks.
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Well, you're welcome, Kristen, and thank you for your question. I'm writing crazily here as you're chatting because I'm thinking of all kinds of things. And your intuition is correct. I would ask questions. And when I saw the brief summary that Amy left for me of your call, what questions would you ask someone who casually refers to karma? The first question that came to mind is like the obvious one. What do you mean by that? That's the kind of formal question or the model question. But I would ask that kind of question right now. Wait. If they said the word karma, then I would say, wait, tell me a little bit about that when you make reference to karma, what are you talking about? And then I would start asking more. Now I know what karma generally is associated with Eastern religions. And so here are people that seem to me committed to the notion, even if they're not committed in a thoroughgoing way to the Eastern religions that hold the karmic view. All right, now, karma is the idea that I guess in common parlance, what goes around comes around. And that was reflected a little bit there in the responses of the people that you talk to, Kristen. And that if you're. If you're doing bad things, then bad things happen to you and you're doing good things, then that good things happen to you. Now, I used to live in Thailand, and it's quite a while ago. I could make the joke that was in a former life. But it's kind of a joke because they're talking about karma, which is related to reincarnation. If you don't get the joke, never mind. It's a long time ago. And in Thai, they had a phrase called tambon. Tambon Tam means to do or to make. And bon was their word for good. Okay, so when you tambon, you would be doing good, or the way that the phrase actually was applied was you're making merit. So you can go in Bangkok, for example, and there'd be vendors on the street, and there'll be a vendor that had a little cage with a sparrow in it. So this cage has the sparrow, the sparrow's caged up, and you could buy the cage from the vendor and then open the door and release the bird. And because you're releasing the bird, this is an act of tambon, of making merit. And so merit accrues to your karmic account. So you've done a good thing, release the bird. And now that's karmic money in the bank, so to speak. Now it's. Oh, that's so sweet, you know, but when you think about it kind of worldviewishly, there are other questions about whether that whole worldview is sound. But even in a more of a micro about the karma thing. Wait a minute. The only way I could do good to the bird to tumble and to make merit on behalf of my karmic debt is to release the bird. Well, how'd the bird get in the cage? The bird got in the cage because somebody captured the bird and put it in the cage, which means he's not tambon, he's tamdam bad. He's making bad. I don't know if that's the phrase they use. But. What about him? Now he's accruing against himself the karmic debt for capturing the bird in the first place. And you just gave money to him. So how does this all work in the kind of calculus of karma? I don't know, but it does seem odd to me, and I don't even know why it is that someone would believe that that's the way the world is structured because it also creates some other kinds of odd situations. So the person who said that, oh, you did something good? Well, good things happen. We're good people, and good things happen to good people. Okay, is that really true? Have you ever heard this objection about Christianity? Why is it that bad things happen to good people? Well, I've heard it lots of times. Why do bad things happen to good people? Well, if bad things are happening to good people, then it is not the case that good things happen to good people. In other words, if you're good, good things happen to you. If there are bad things happen, according to karma, the bad things are happening because you've been bad. Now, maybe you've been bad in a prior life, but that's kind of how that system works. So I would ask that question. Well, I'm confused about it. You're saying good things happen to people who do good. But why is it, if that's true, why is it that bad things happen to good people? See what they say?
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Oh,
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if that was the second instance of yours, Kristen, in the first instance, good would return back on you because you're doing good. What if you did bad? Well, bad would return back on you. Okay, so let's just say there's a beggar in the street, and the beggars, that's bad. He's poor, he's hungry, he's cold, he's homeless. Okay, why? Why is he like that? Well, the karmic view. He's getting what he deserved. He did something that increased his karmic debt that he's now paying off in this suffering. So what does it mean? That if you reduce his suffering, you get a karmic benefit from it. Maybe tambon make merit, but at the same time, you're keeping him from paying off his karmic debt for the bad that he did. So now you're interfering with that. In India, and I've been there. I spent three weeks there a number of years ago in Madras. It's on the southeastern section of India on the coast, and there were a lot of people. Even though the caste system has officially Been outlawed. It still functions. And there are a lot of people that are called untouchables. And why are they the way they are? Because they're working off their karmic debt. They're getting what they deserve. Don't help them. That's the consequence of karma. So these are the kinds of background elements that would inform my questions, Christian, of anybody who would kind of make or seem to be making the case for karma, even in these offhanded ways. So I'm confused. About what? Are you referring to karma? So do you actually think that that's true? I mean, curious. Just when you say karma, you mean what? How does that work? Good things happen to good people. Bad things happen to bad people. Okay. Do you ever have a bad thing happen to you? Sure. Well then does that mean you're a bad person? I don't know what they'd say. They'd have to say yes to be consistent. And if it's happening to you because you're bad, then if I try to help you out, that I'm interfering with kind of karmic justice because you're getting what you deserve and maybe I shouldn't try to help you out because then I'd interfere with that. These are all the questions. I don't think it is a very coherent doctrine, at least the way most people talk about it. Like your friends making these offhanded comments. Now there are people that probably can speak much more intelligibly about this notion and how it fits into a broader Eastern religious worldview. Okay, that's fine if you can do that. But now what comes in question is the legitimacy of the entire worldview of which karma is a part. And I don't have any reason to think that that's an accurate worldview. I have lots of reasons to think that the Christian worldview is accurate and it's not karmic. Now is there a cause, effect relationship in Christianity? Sure, because that's life, that's the world. Sometimes you do something stupid and it comes and something bad happens. Look, I was a few years back and maybe I told you the story when I was in Wisconsin at our place and I was putting the pier up and I had a big like a. You know what a 16 penny nail is, right? It's a big giant nail. I mean it's only about 4 inches long. I had one that was like 10 inches long, maybe a foot long. It wasn't 16 penny. It was like a thousand penny. It was a big giant spike that looked like a nail. And I Was using it to try to line up some holes in the pipes that went together and had holes in them. And I'm sticking it in and pulling to line the holes up so I can put the bolt in. And I'm in the lake and I'm trying to fix the pier, but I did something really stupid. I'm trying to line these holes up and pull the spike. And as I'm pulling the spike to line the holes up, I'm pulling it towards my face, which is. And it slipped out of its socket and bang, right into my eye. I thought maybe I'd lost my eye. Turned out I got a black eye and everything was okay. Yeah, I got better. But there was a consequence. Oh, karma. It's not karma. It's just cause and effect. You do something dumb and that could hurt you, it's not karma. Karma is a cause and effect kind of thing that fits into a whole religious worldview which I think is false. So there is a place for cause and effect in Christianity, but it's not karmic. And you don't make merit with God, not in the way they're talking. You don't earn your way out by doing good things and get better next time around in the reincarnation because you've worked off your karmic debt. Jesus pays my karmic debt, all of it. So that when I'm absent from the body, I am present with the Lord. It is appointed to men once to die, and then the judgment. And if Jesus took the judgment, your name is written in the book of life. You're covered. So that karmic system doesn't fit in Christianity, nor does reincarnation, by the way. It's trying to, like. Trying to, like, put a carburetor on a computer. Okay. It doesn't do any work for us if you understand how our system works. So there you go, Kristen. I hope there's something there that you can find useful as you talk with your friends. All right. Who in an offhanded kind of way, make reference to karma and you can have a couple questions. See, help me understand how that really works. And, well, what about this? If that's the way it actually works, if good things happen to good people, then bad things happen to bad people because they're bad and should we help them? But they're getting what they deserve. Now we're interfering. You know the drill. I already went over that. But just thought, give you a quick summary. All right, friends, let's take a break and more questions when I return. On Stand to Reason.
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Have you ever wondered how Stand to Reason is able to produce fresh, accessible content each week? We rely on generous donors so that we can provide you with the tools and tactics you need to be an effective ambassador for Christ. If you've benefited from this podcast or any of our donor provided resources, including our apps, blog posts, articles and short videos, consider making a financial contribution to Stand to Reason today. Just visit str.orgdonate to show your financial support. It has been an honor providing you with a host of free resources for more than 27 years to help you give voice to the Christian worldview. Help us continue by making a financial gift today@str.org donate as a high school
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teacher, I always had a red pen close at hand. When I wasn't in front of my students teaching a lesson, you could find me assessing assignments, grading essays, and evaluating exams. The red pen played a crucial role role in the educational development of my students. With it, I question their assumptions, expose their errors, and challenge them to think critically. You see, a good teacher doesn't merely tell his students that they're wrong. A good teacher shows his students why they're wrong so they don't make the same mistakes twice. He corrects because he cares. Last year I was scrolling through social media and frankly, I was discouraged at all the bad thinking that undergirded much of what I was reading. Then it hit me. What if someone applied the red pen to this flawed thinking? And Red pen logic with Mr. B was born. In the last few months, Red Pen Logic has grown in popularity through our engaging and shareable educational graphics and videos. We are helping people, especially young people, assess bad thinking by using good thinking and we have a lot of fun in the process. So here's your homework assignment like the Red Pen Logic Facebook page so you don't miss our next graphic and subscribe at the Red Pen Penlogic YouTube channel so you don't miss a single video. Class dismissed.
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Alrighty friends. So welcome back. And of course I didn't go anywhere and you didn't go anywhere. So I'm not sure I say welcome back what that means, but that's radio talk, right? All right, I have a question here on Open Mic Calls, which we'll continue with. Once again, my number if you want to talk to me direct and right now 562-424-8714 incidentally, I just said talk to me directly. I talk to people all the time who are flying and they say I got a direct flight from here to there or wherever and what they mean is a non stop, but in airline lingo, direct means you're on the plane, the same plane the whole time, no matter how many times you stop. So you could have lots of stops on a direct flight. You just don't get off the plane. It's the non stop you're talking about. Just saying. Does anybody care? No. Okay, let's hear what Elaine Voss will go directly and nonstop to Elaine Voss. Elaine.
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Hi Greg, this is Elaine from Northwest Washington State. Thanks for all you and the team do there at str. I have a question for you today dealing with some LDS questions. So a few weeks ago my daughter and I were in Salt Lake City for her archery competition and we took some time with the group to visit the LDS temple area area.
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Good for you.
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We encourage the girls to ask some questions and listen and ask any follow up questions. It was their first time for most of them to interact with Christian versus Mormon conversation and they were actually shocked later at how much they had enjoyed the time. They were nervous, but then their natural curiosity got them a little deeper than they were expecting to go. We parents were also there in the conversation with these two LDS sisters, as they called themselves in the van. Afterwards we continued our topic of conversation and here are a few questions I would love some tactical and theological help on. Okay, I'll probably record a separate call on some of them to keep this short anyway, starting with their authority or priesthood or apostleship. That was a big part of their argument. To the extent that your vow or your covenant making is issued to a priest which initiates your membership into the LDS church. How do we answer or question more deeply into their teaching of the flow of the true church authority from the early church and then skipping a thousand years or more and then landing conveniently in a vision in the 1800s. Yeah, another question I just noticed was like talking about Heavenly Father, not our Heavenly Father. Is that a significant verbal difference or just. No major difference? Thanks. I'll record the other two after this.
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Oh, that's great. Elaine, I am really proud of you and your daughters. How great? I mean Archer is fabulous. I'm also proud of them for their willingness to talk to the LDS people. I used to love shooting bow and arrow when I was younger, so that's great. But now there's competition. You got that. But you took the time to reach out and maybe push the envelope a little bit and then found out you had a great time talking to the sweet LDS people. And they are sweet. They are like you can't out nice A Mormon. They're great in that regard, characteristically. Okay, but then they do make certain claims. And I'm glad that you characterize it as a claim. But then you said part of their argument. All right, now I understand why you'd say that, but I just want to make an observation. An argument isn't the same as a claim. A claim is a claim and an argument is when the claim has reasons to support it. So when the LDS Church makes these claims about priesthood, what I want to see after that is what their argument actually is. So you say that you are the extended authoritative organization, extended from the true church in the first century, skips a couple thousand years and shows up, as you pointed out, Elaine, conveniently there with Joseph Smith. I mean, I'm okay with people getting revelations in principle. Question is whether this revelation is consistent with the text. And so my question would be, okay, I understand. Essentially my question would be, so I'm just modeling it for you, but in conversation it might have different words, would essentially be, I understand the claim you're making, and this presumes I've asked more questions about the priesthood claim to understand it. But why should I believe that's actually true? Maybe I could say I'm the priest because an angel appeared to me and made me a priest, and now I represent the early church. Now, if I said that, I would have to back it up, right? And the same thing is true, LDS friends. And the principle here is the second step of the tactical game plan, and that is the burden of proof issue. The person who makes the claim bears the burden. If you make a claim, good, that's a start. But you got to take it further. It's not my job to refute your claim. It's your job to support it, to justify it. And so that's why, since they claim to be the true church now, then I would ask them, what is your reason to believe that the mantle of priesthood fell on Joseph Smith, etc. All the rest of those in leadership in the church. Now that requires an answer, it seems to me. And if they say, well, just read the Book of Mormon and see if you get a burning in the bosom and that'll answer that question for you. That's not an. They are claiming significant authority before God over other people. They have to demonstrate that they actually have the right to exercise that authority. Okay, so that's the first thing. A couple of other things come to mind here. How do I respond to the LDS priesthood claims about the flow? And this is Amy's Summary, but it's kind of what you said, the flow of true church authority from the early church to them. Now, this takes us back to the early church. Did the early church have authority in itself? Long pause no, the early church didn't have authority. There were churches all over the place. The apostles had authority, then the apostles died and the early church followed what the apostles said and wrote. The apostles had the authority those apostles portrayed by Jesus. But there was no church authority per se, not early on. That sense of the church having authority didn't come for 800 years. So on the one hand, we have this claim that they haven't justified yet, but they're also characterizing the early church in a way that it wasn't as if the early church had authority in itself. And then something happened, they disappeared. And this does raise the question of the gates of hell shall not prevail. Well, maybe it prevailed. What, for 1800 years before Joseph Smith? I don't know. How would you answer that? LDS missionary, whoever. I mean, it's a fair question, right? And then all of a sudden, now you have a new group of people who are vested with the same power the old of people had. And what I'm saying is that it was not the case that the group of people, any group of people, had that power. The authority always came from the text. Those who were disciples of the disciples of Jesus did not claim that authority for themselves. They went back to the text. And this is where you could read J. Warner Wallace's wonderful book, Cold Case Christianity, because he talks about about the nature of the message and how it's been handed down over time from one to the other. And he uses a copy illustration and he calls it the chain of custody. So if there's a crime that's committed and here's evidence of the crime, they label it and then they mark it with the date and one person gives it to another person, he labels it as having received it, and then they give it to another person who labels it as having. And so the chain of custody follows this piece of evidence so that when it finally comes to trial, that evidence can be displayed as being the bona fide evidence from the beginning because it went through this chain of custody. Fair enough. It's a great illustration. I love the analogy with his police work, but it's a great characterization of what took place because the message, the content, the details were not guarded by a group of people who were the church that guarded it. The organization that guarded was guarded by the passing on of the writings of the apostles. And when you see the writings of the earliest Christian leaders, they were all quoting the same texts and saying the same thing. So you have a de facto chain of custody down through the years, not just from John, but from Peter, etc. Etc. And J. Warner quantifies this really superb way, quoting the church fathers and seeing what they say. The Gospel wasn't lost, first of all, contrary to the claims of the LDS Church. And there was no church authority that was guarding it as a church, which then passes that authority Somehow mystically down 2000 years to this other group of people who now has the same authority. That isn't the way it was in the early church. Now this raises another question. And the question was, which a question applies to a lot of other discussions that people have about denominations? You know, there are a lot of churches today that make the same claim that the LDS Church makes. The LDS Church makes the claim that they're the true church. Essentially, that's the claim. And they have the mantle of the early church and the powers of the early Church passed on to them. Okay? So they're the true organization. Now the Roman Catholic Church makes the same claim and the Coptic Church makes the same claim. And the Russian Orthodox Church makes the same claim. And the Antiochan Church, Orthodox Church. And they all. And the Greek Orthodox, they all make the same claim. Now, just because they all make the same claim doesn't mean that someone's not right. This is not what I'm setting up for that they're making the claim to be the true church is based on a presumption. What is that presumption? The presumption is that Jesus came to found an organization. Jesus came to found an organization. If Jesus came to found an organization, then it makes sense to ask what organization is that organization that Jesus founded? I have no reason to believe, as I've read many times through the Gospels, that anywhere that indicates Jesus came to found an organization. And all of these organizations look very much like the organization that the message in the Gospel of Grace was meant to replace. It looks like the Jewish organization. It's all reproduced. Thousands of years later, there it is again. And they're all making the claim that they're the right organization. I don't think Jesus ever intended to create an organization. He came to create an organism of which he was the head. And the foundation is the prophets and the apostles. This is Ephesians 2. He's the chief cornerstone. And all of the believers are the building blocks of this new temple. It's not an organization and if Jesus didn't come to start an organization, it doesn't make sense to ask which organization that exists now is the organization that he came to start. It misses the point entirely. Now I understand a little bit about the history and how these churches were scattered around and they had elders and they had access to some of the teaching of the disciples, the apostles rather, and documents were read and reread and stuff like that, and copied and recopied. But pretty soon there came to be centers of power and individuals rose up, like Augustine, for example, or Jerome or these are different people who became bishops of areas. Now we have an individual who's over areas and then you have the bishop of Rome who then becomes not just the bishop of Rome, the pope of Rome, but the pope of all the bishops. That was over time this develops. Now none of that seems to be justified by the text yet that's what happened. Now, the church prevailed. God's truth prevailed, largely even through the confusion, I think, and the problems that all of this ecclesiastical hierarchy created. But even so, the hierarchy that was created was not part of the plan unless you can find it in the New Testament. I can't. So this is another problem with this claim, Elaine, and that is they can only be having received the mantle of the authority of the early church as an organization if God Jesus intended there to be an organization that represented him, which represented him early on. And then later the mantle is passed 2000 years later to the LDS, who end up saying different things about Jesus and God and salvation than those early church fathers said because they were the one who were protecting the message from generation to generation. Passing it down. I'm pausing, trying to think of the term that Jay Warner uses. What was it I said? The chain of custody. So this claim is. Is problematic on a number of different levels, Elaine. And anyway, those are some thoughts for you. I know you have some other questions. We'll get to that, maybe in another podcast, but thank you for that. Let's take a quick break and I'll get to some more questions when I return. Stand to Reason did you know Stand a reason has a YouTube channel? We release a new video each Monday on the topics you care about. Through short, engaging videos, our speakers train you on tactics, offer apologetics tips, answer common theology questions, and address big issues in the world today. Join tens of thousands of other subscribers so you can stay up to date. When we release a new video, just go to YouTube.com and search strvideos all one word and hit the subscribe button. That's strvideos. Take advantage of this free resource to help you stay informed, encouraged and equipped as you share your worldview with others. Do you have a passion to train people in apologetics but you don't know where to start? You may be interested in starting an STR Outpost. STR Outposts are local communities of Christians seeking answers to the hard questions about Christianity. Each outpost is led by a qualified director who trains others with STR content and curriculum in their local church. By becoming an Outpost Director, you'll be equipped with the content and coaching you need to lead your own outpost. We currently have around 160 outposts spanning 38 states and in eight other countries, and we're adding more each month. If you're interested in learning more about starting an outpost or you want to find a current outpost in your area, visit str.org outpost you can also email me trippallman@postposttr.org. All righty, let's go to the phones and we have Austin in Anaheim. 2A's Austin. Hi.
- [44:24]
A
Hey Greg, how are you doing?
- [44:27]
B
Nice talking with you.
- [44:29]
A
I have a question about becoming a Christian and you've done past wrongs. We've all done past wrongs. I'll give you a couple quick examples. Hopefully, for example, my friend, this is very common. I don't know if you know this. If you're in the military, when you get out, if you have any sort of injury, it kind of piles up and you can get something called 100% VA disability. It's around $4,000 depending on the person right now per month for life, tax free. So I have a friend that lied to get this. He's getting $4,300 a month and he's recently started attending church and he's interested in Christianity. I recommended the MacArthur Study Bible, yada, yada. And I'm not going to say anything to him, but I'm just curious, like, you know, something like that. Another example I heard on the Internet was a girl who was doing online pornography, only fans and she became a Christian. You know, she's a multimillionaire and people are saying, well, why doesn't she donate her money to church? You know what I mean? So I'm just kind of curious, like someone that did something wrong in the past and becomes a Christian. What would you say about that?
- [45:31]
B
Well, in the first case, their crime or their wrongdoing is not but in the past, it's currently in the present, correct?
- [45:40]
A
Yes, that's correct.
- [45:42]
B
Yeah. So I mean, if a person is illicitly based on deception, getting money from the government, then they are currently doing something wrong and they should stop. That's called repentance. Now, I don't know what that requires is. You know, this is another question. And people may disagree, but I'm just agnostic about, does that mean he's got to pay the government back for all those months and years that he's been illicitly getting $4,000? I don't know, but he certainly should stop doing it now. So I can think of, in my case, in my own life, when I became a Christian, there were. There were. That was a long time ago. So it was half a century ago, so I can't remember, like, what happened last week. But I know there were a number of things that I was motivated to do to correct wrongs of the past that, that I did in virtue of my Christianity. In one case, I. I owed somebody I worked in. I was. I went to Michigan State University in the early 70s and I SOL estate there on the side, and I didn't do well and I had to be advanced a lot of money. And the very decent man whose name I still remember, he helped me until I couldn't do this anymore. And then I moved to California. Well, I still had an outstanding debt with him. And after I became a Christian, it became clear to me that I needed to pay that debt debt. And so eventually I raised the money to dispose of that debt, to pay the debt off, and I earned it. And then I sent it to him along with a letter, and I said, you know, this is to pay what I owe you and to make a clean slate here. And I mentioned that I was a Christian or follower of Christ. I can't remember the wording, but it was in virtue of that that I sent it out and he got back to me and he said, well, thank you. That was kind of singular because he'd been jilted by other people financially, and I'm the guy who, you know, paid him back as a matter of conscience. There was another circumstance I can think of that I had wronged another person. It was just after I became a Christian and I went to her and I made amends with her and I apologized to her for the way that I wronged her. And so those are two things that come to mind in my own personal life where there was wrongdoing in my past and I had to rectify that wrongdoing. There might have even been a time I had a rough emancipation from my dad and I didn't see him for five years. He wasn't a Christian at the time. But when I became a Christian, I think I needed, as I recall, there was a time of going back to him and saying, dad, I'm really sorry for the way I treated you in this circumstance, etc. But notice that what I was doing was going back to the people I had wronged and who knew I had wronged them and trying to make amends with them. So I think there's a virtue to that. There's a place for that. And especially if you were involved in something illicit as a non Christian and you become a Christian, you leave that behind. You don't continue on in that behavior. And so I think in the first case you mentioned, Austin, of your friend who is now getting a compensation for injuries he didn't have in the military, I think it's fair to say, listen, bro, hey, what's up with that? So you're still getting a check, right? Yeah. And that's for an injury you never had, right? Yeah. And you're now a Christian, right? Yeah. Isn't that deceptive theft? That's another question.
- [49:56]
A
So you think even early on, like a baby Christian, you would maybe say something to someone?
- [50:01]
B
Oh, yeah. But with a baby Christian, I mean, the approach is going to be tempered by some details in the circumstance. Maybe you don't. Let's just call. Let's say his name is Fred. I like that name, Fred. So he's the anonymous person named Fred. So you say, hey, Fred, I'm glad you know the Lord. It's great growing in the Lord, blah, blah, blah. But I just want to talk to you about something. There's this thing that I know about going on in your life. You're a follower of Jesus now, right? So what do you think about continuing this deception that you gain income from as a follower of Jesus? So it's a question. My thinking is he's going to say, you know, yeah, that's not right. Because it's not right. It's pretty obvious, you know, it's not right. And especially if he's a Christian. Look at it. When I was a young Christian, Austin, I did lots of things wrong and I had lots of dear people close to me tell me about it. And that was good for me. Now, they weren't nasty, they weren't mean, they weren't lording it over me, but they were mentoring me and guiding me in the right way as a young Christian. I don't know why being a young Christian would somehow be a mitigating factor in a person continuing on in clear sin. There is a transition period. I know for myself. Took me a while to get some things under control, straighten out. When I became a Christian, I did not think premarital sex was wrong. That wasn't part of my salvation package. I did not think abortion was wrong. I did not think what I don't think there's other things, but I didn't have it all together. And there's a little old saw that I actually included in the story of reality. And the statement is God catches his fish and then he cleans them. Now that doesn't mean there's no expectation of a changed life when we get our so called fire insurance. No, there is, but there is a turn, there is a change. We are following something new, but that happens. Those transitions take place because there are people in our life that help us with them. And that's why being a young Christian wouldn't change anything by that. And notice the way I, I characterized it. I offered questions that I would ask to get the other person to acknowledge their own wrong in that case.
- [52:44]
A
Yeah, I keep thinking about the verse that says swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
- [52:50]
B
Wait, say that one again. I'm sorry.
- [52:52]
A
There's a verse in the New Testament I'm not remembering the book that says swindlers because it's kind of swindling, right? Oh yeah, yeah.
- [52:59]
B
Swindlers will not inherit. Well, I think that's 1 Corinthians 6, 9 and following because there's a bunch of nasties in there. But yeah, that is swindling. So what that means is a real Christian is not going to continue in that, particularly when he knows that it's wrong. If somebody points it out to him and maybe he's not even aware of it as a young Christian then. Oh, I never thought of it that way. Oh, I guess you're right. Okay, can't do this anymore. That's the appropriate response for a young Christian when it's made clear to him he's not well formed, he's a babe in Christ. Paul refers to them in Galatians 3. You know, they're going to be kind of fleshly because they're babies in Christ, but we're here to help him grow. All right, I'm looking on the clock. We're a little tight. And you had a second example about something about online porn, but I missed exactly what that was.
- [53:59]
A
Yeah, kind of a different example. I was just saying there was some girl who was super rich off this Online porn platform called OnlyFans. And she became a Christian and she's still a multimillionaire. She's got a big house and whatnot. And everyone was saying, you need to donate that money, give up that house. Does that make sense?
- [54:17]
B
Now I understand what you meant and it sounds like the council is well intentioned, but I'm not sure. Who's she going to give the money to.
- [54:33]
A
Yeah, no, I know, I know.
- [54:35]
B
I mean, I'm not sure exactly how that works. I mean, most of us, you know, I mean, apply it more broadly and I'm going to just be a little agnostic right here. I'm just saying I'm not sure about that because who's she going to give the money to? Oh, she can give it to charity or whatever, but there are all kinds of people that did all kinds of stuff before they were Christians and now, okay, they're on a new path. They're not going to continue that like we talked about with Fred. But now, I don't know in this particular instance what she's supposed to do. Okay, she's just supposed to give all our money away. Imagine, one could make the case that everything she now owns was a result of her work in an illicit industry. So, okay, now it's all gone. Now what? Who does she give it to? For one, she can't give it back. You know, now she's still, if she's still like getting royalties or something for it, that's something that I think needs to be addressed. You just like when you make a movie or you write a book and you get royalties and the more you sell, the more royalties you get. You might say, hey, that book I wrote 10 years ago was heresy. The publishers are still going to sell it because they got to get their money, whatever. But I guess I would be. I think it would be fair to say I cannot receive any royalties from that publication anymore. That I think was wrong. So I am severing my relationship from that publication or maybe from that movie or royalties from that, whatever that enterprise was, that was illicit. That would make sense to me to do that. But I don't know, just this blanket thing of getting rid of all of her millions or billions or whatever it is. Who makes billions in the porn industry? I don't know, but maybe. But anyway, so that's, that's kind of the best I could do on that one, Austin.
- [56:44]
A
Thank you, Greg. And I appreciate you sharing about your life before Christ.
- [56:47]
B
Oh, you're welcome. I mean, it's like everybody's got. It's not even ghost in my closet, just the way I was and now I'm different. And so I felt that as a follower of Christ, then I gotta close some of those doors, resolve those things and move on. Fortunately, it was relatively painless for me to do that for other people. Maybe for your friend it will be more painful if he's more dependent on that. What, 4,000amonth or whatever happens to be. But that seems to be a pretty clear case of inappropriate income making. Thanks for the call though, really appreciate it. Austin Greg Koukl here for Stand a Reason. Give him heaven friends. Bye bye.
- [57:34]
E
It.