Loading summary
Transcript50 lines
- [00:00]
Trisha
Sa.
- [00:29]
Greg Kokel
Hello, friends. Welcome to the last show of the year. Hard to believe that 2025 is almost behind us and it's been. It's really flown by. There's another one next week. Oh, okay. It's my last live show of the year. There is another one next week. Okay. This is the one coming out. Just. Okay. It's my last time to make my request of you to be generous, to stand a reason this year. We've worked really hard on your behalf and we trust that we have helped you and this is why you listen to the show. So many people call in and say, we're thrilled for what you're doing and thank you so much. We get letters and emails and all of that gifts sometimes, and our hearts are warmed by that. And we're thankful for all of those who call in and say, we're a strategic partners. We're part of your giving team financially, and we're thrilled to do that. So I understand that. I understand that. At least for me, it's very satisfying. I already sent all my end of year checks out. We have our monthly stuff, but the end of the year, we looked at how God has prospered us and we say, okay, we've got more that we can give in response to God to say thank you and to say thank you to these other organizations that we not only receive from in some cases, but we just want to give to, like the Orange County Rescue Mission. All right. I mean, we're giving to the poor. I don't give to people on the street. I don't know where that money's going. But we give generously, I think, to an organization we know that handles that. So we've already done all of that giving. And for me, it's been really satisfying. I love, love, love writing those checks. And yes, I write checks for things like that because I want to go through the motion of being more actively involved, of giving. Now, we're really thrilled when people at our team who don't don't write checks. They just says eft because we know we're going to hear from them every month. But I write the checks for my benefit. In other words, the satisfaction of participating more aggressively and giving and being cheerful as a giver. And I write every month so I don't forget any. But in any event, we've enjoyed that and I trust that you who have given to stand a reason have enjoyed it too. And if you haven't given, this is a great time to start that enjoyment. Our end of year, we have one more week left of giving to meet our end of year goals. I'm not going to go into a lot of detail. I did already the last couple shows telling you what we've accomplished this year and we hope to do so much more next year. We just want to finish strong. So I want to thank you from my heart for those who have already given and I also want to offer a challenge to those who haven't to give generously. If God has prospered you generously this year, give generously. If we've helped you generously, give generously. If not, then give modestly or give to us modestly if we've given to you modestly. However, every gift helps us to close the year strong. So please make it a plan this week to maybe go to str.org donate and make your donation before the end of the year. And I think if we get Your donation by 28 December, is that the cutoff? My understanding is then we're going to send you a copy of the Story of Reality. We're going to send you a bonus quick reference guide on the story of Reality and we're going to send you two copies of the story of why God Died and Came to Life again so that you can give these out to other people because we're convinced sense that we're on a threshold of a harvest and we want you to participate as well. Once again, that's str.org donate love to hear from you and I'm going to thank you in advance for that. Now I had a conversation at our dinner table the other night. My daughter's friends are coming in from university and she gets to see them again, her high school friends. And so a couple of were over to dinner the other night and one had has been going to University of Nevada where she encounters many LDS students and the frustration that she's experienced, which is one that I feel also when talking to people who are LDs with their that's the best way to put this posturing. And I think for many of them, especially the younger ones, because they just don't know any better, they're posturing that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the Mormon Church, is a denomination of Christianity. Is a denomination of Christianity. Well, we're Christians too. They will say, just like you're Christians. Well, if that's the case, why do they come to our door and want them to join the Mormon Church? I guess they've said, well, because ours is a fuller expression of Christianity that we would like you to participate in, to have a more satisfying experience. So let me just say for the record, and I want to clarify this in my opening remarks here, it is not a fuller expression of Christianity. It is a totally different take on what Christianity is. So much so that if Mormons are Christians, I am not a Christian. And if I am a Christian, then LDS are not Christians. No. By the way, I'm not even saying who's a Christian and who isn't at this point. And it's not even the point of this commentary. The point of this commentary is just to be clear. And the word Christian has a meaning and the word denomination has a meaning. So to be a subset of Christianity as a denomination of Christianity means something in particular. Now I know many LDs will say we believe in Jesus, you believe in Jesus, so that makes us Christians. Well, my question at this point, you might ask it, would you say that Muslims are Christians? Well, no, of course not. They're Muslims, but they believe in Jesus. You know, there's more written about Jesus in the Quran than there is written about Muhammad in the Quran. Because they believe in a Jesus, does that make them Christians? Jews, I guess would say they believe in a Jesus. They're not putting their faith in a Jesus. They affirm he is a historical, an individual of history, but that doesn't make them Christians. But Muslims do have a faith commitment of sorts to Jesus. They believe he's one of the great prophets and that Muhammad coming after him is the greatest of prophets. But they have all this information about Jesus in the Quran. Does that make them Christian? Of course not. Why not? Well, because their beliefs about Jesus are so different. Right? That's why they're not Christian. Because they don't believe Christian things about Jesus. They believe Muslim things about Jesus. And the LDS does not believe Christian things about Jesus. They believe LDS things about Jesus. And the two are not even close. So a number of years ago I wrote a piece, not even sure what month it was. It was a solid ground. And if you don't get solid ground, you ought to. It doesn't cost anything. We send this out as at no charge, as training material every other month an article that's about 3,000 words or a little bit more generally and then an alternating months, short one page, both sides mentoring letter. But this article that I sent out so you can go to str.org upper right hand corner, I think it says register. Go ahead and register and you'll get this stuff. No charge. It's our gift to you. We're training you But I wrote a piece eight or nine, 10 years ago, I don't know, and the title was, Is Mormonism Just Another Christian Denomination? That's all I'm dealing with there. And the answer hinges entirely on the meaning of two Christian and denomination. That's it. Now, when I use the word Christian, I'm referring to classical Christianity. I'm referring to the kinds of things that Christians have believed for 2000 years that define them as a Christian group. Now, there are groups that I'm trying to think of the best way to characterize it. I don't want to say quasi Christian groups, but that are groups that believe in Jesus in some fashion and teach things from the New Testament. But they are distinct from classical Christianity because they reject the sine qua nons, the elements that. Without which. Which is what that Latin phrase means, sine qua non, that without which Christianity is no longer Christianity, it's something else. And Jehovah's Witnesses would fall into that category, and Christian Scientists would fall into that category, and a whole bunch of other groups from the early church times, particularly the second century, you have the Ebionites, you have the Docetists, you have all different forms of gnostics, all who believe in Jesus, but they reject the Jesus of the Gospels and the things taught about him there. Okay, they have a different Jesus. And Paul warns about a different Jesus in Corinthians, and he warns about a different Gospel in Galatians, and he warns in very strong terms. So this matters. He said, let those who preach a gospel other than what we received, even if an angel from heaven communicates that which. That's interesting because that's where or at least part of the LDS revelation comes from an angel from heaven named Moroni. But Paul says, look, if they differ, let him be anathema. I mean, that's a pretty strong word that means cursed. Cursed to hell, essentially. So there is a Jesus and then there are Jesus, and then there's another Jesus, and there are all kinds of Jesuses. There's lots of different takes on Jesus that people believe in, but there is one Jesus that is characteristic of classical Christianity. Okay, and that's when I talk about Christianity. That's what I'm referring to, classical Christianity and also the word denomination. I'm using this in its standard sense. A religious denomination is a subset of a larger religion in that it holds to all the distinctions of the parent group. That is the bare essentials, what I refer to as the synechronons. You got to hold to the bare Essentials. And you may differ from other denominations in smaller things, but you don't differ from the essentials because the essentials are what gives the word Christianity specific meaning. And by the way, Mormons understand this, the Church of Latter Day Saints, they reject as legitimately Mormon those Mormon groups who believe in plural marriage. Now, it used to be that all of Mormonism taught plural marriage. All right? Now they've rejected that. And there are still groups though, that think this is part of Mormon orthodoxy now because the main church doesn't hold to polygamy anymore. And there are offshoots that still do. They are very quick, the main church, to distance themselves from those offshoots that teach polygamy. Now, I mean, they're free to do that. They define their beliefs any way they want. I'm just, what I'm doing is making the point that even within Mormonism, you have an orthodoxy, that even if you depart from that orthodoxy, you are not considered Mormon anymore. And this is the way they treat these offshoot groups. They're not Mormon, they're pretenders, they're not real Mormons because they don't hold to the doctrines that are central now to the Mormon Church. Okay? That's what it means to be a denomination. So a Christian denomination is the denomination that shares the core doctrines that historically distinguish Christianity from a whole host of other groups. All right? And one other detail here. The denomination has no core doctrines that are at odds with the core doctrines of classical Christianity. These denominations, they're core worldview have to overlap at the important points to be called a denomination, in this case of Christianity. Okay, so you get my use of terms here. So the question then is, is Mormonism a denomination of Christianity in the sense that everything doctrinally central to classical Christianity is also central to Mormonism. And two, they don't hold views that turn out to be in opposition to the central doctrines of Christianity. So is this the case? And the answer is no. Anybody who knows anything about LDS knows that that isn't the case. In fact, they know that's not the case. That's why they're knocking at your door. Because we have wrong beliefs about God and Jesus and salvation, etcetera, Etc, etcetera. Now, I'm pausing here just in my own mind, because I'm wondering if Mormon missionaries understand this. One would think somebody who is a missionary is somebody who has a deep understanding of the foundational elements in contrast to the beliefs of the people they're going to. I'm not convinced this is the case. I think Mormon missionaries are taught some Mormon theology and they are taught ways to maneuver in conversations and appeal to people to get converts. And the appeal is principally subjective. Pray and see if you get this burning in the bosom that the Book of Mormon is God's book and that's their entree into Mormonism, if they have that experience. But as to all these other details, I don't think they. I think a lot of times they don't understand the differences. If they did, they would not be able to say with a straight face that Mormonism is just another denomination of Christianity. It's totally distinct, as we'll see. So I went to a source book called LDS A Doctrinal Reference. Now this is a book printed by Deseret Press, and this is the book that is their book. This is the Mormon Church, what they print to characterize their beliefs. And I read here, I'm just going to read two sections because. It's misleading. Let's just leave it at that. It's misleading. So this LDS beliefs book is alphabetical. It's not a systematic theology like you would have in Christianity, like the doctrine of God and the doctrine of Jesus, the doctrine of the Holy Spirit, doctrine of salvation, etc. No, you have alphabetical listings, so you could look under G for God. All right. Oh, no, here under C for Christian. So here's what I found under the heading Christian. A Christian is one who accepts the scriptural, prophetic and spirit delivered testimony of the divinity of Jesus of Nazareth. Oh, that sounds right. Okay, keep going. A Christian believes that Jesus is the Son of God and God the Son who took upon himself the burden of the sin and sufferings of all mankind, of all humankind, and made forgiveness and deliverance available through faith in his name and through acceptance of the terms and conditions of His Gospel. Wait a minute. You might be wondering what that phrase means. The acceptance of terms and conditions of His Gospel. Remember when the Philippian jailer in Acts 16 said, what must I do to be saved? There was a simple answer. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. And Paul didn't add to it that you accept the terms and conditions of His Gospel anyway. So that's a questionable phrase, but I'll keep reading. That he rose from the dead. A Christian is one who acknowledges his or her sin and weakness in recognition that peace and happiness and salvation come only through applying the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. A Christian knows full well that there is no other name by which salvation comes except the name of Jesus Christ. Now that's on pages 109 and 110. Now that sounds really great. Now in my mind I'm watching for specific things that. Wait a minute. Not sure what they mean by those phrases, but so far so good it seems. Sounds stellar at first glance. Then I went to the entry God in the G section and we find this God is the only supreme governor and independent being in whom all fullness and perfection dwell, who is omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient without beginnings of days or end of life. God is infinite while men and women on earth are finite. Page 262 well, again, everything seems in order there. And I read that I'm thinking, oh my goodness, this is crystal clear. I could affirm that until you glance over to the facing page. Also under the G category where the word Godhead appears. So you have God and then you have Godhead, and this is what you find under Godhead. Quoting now the Godhead consists of three personages, not persons. Personages. God the Eternal Father, Jesus Christ the Redeemer, and the Holy Ghost. Joseph Smith referred to these three as God the first, the Creator, God the second, the Redeemer, and God the third, the witness or Testator. Okay, continuing. The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. These three are separate and distinct personages and beings. I'm just quoting here. This understanding stands in stark contrast to efforts on the part of of traditional Christian thinkers to maintain the ontological oneness that means oneness in being of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Now we see an important distinction being made. In fact, it's being carefully made, not subtly made, but explicitly made, that they reject Nicaea. They reject the classical understanding of the Trinity, which is curious, because some of this explanation about the Godhead seems to be at odds with the definition of God under the heading God. But in any event, do you see an explicit rejection of the core teaching of Christianity, that is the Trinity? That there is one God and three persons in the one God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit? So, and not only that, but according to this, the Father is a body of flesh and blood as tangible as man's, and the distinction between the three are a distinction of beings. What do you call it when you have only one God? Monotheism. What do you call it when you have three distinct beings that are all God or Gods? Polytheism. Now, I know that the LDS Church claims they are not polytheistic, and my response to that is, look, you are free to define your own views. You're not free to redefine the English language because your teaching is multiple gods, at least three. And multiple gods is polytheism where classical Christianity teaches monotheism. Now look again, I'm not arguing that the LDS is wrong in their view and that the classical Christianity is right. I'm just asking, are they basically the same thing? And the answer is no, they're not. The important thing you need to notice here is the explicit distinction between LDS beliefs and those of traditional Christian thinkers. So there is more here, but just at the foundational level, the explicit rejection of Nicaea takes them out completely out of the category of classical Christianity. There's some clarification here about the Godhead that they offer on page 436. In the ultimate and final sense of the Word, there is only one true and living God. And then it's qualified. We believe in one God, in that we believe in one Godhead, one divine presidency of the universe, three gods, three beings. And these three constitute the Godhead and are one. Well, that's not the Trinity. That's nothing like classical Christianity. That's polytheism. Even the statement there is only one true living God, then they qualify what they mean by that. So this is an important step. Francis Schaeffer used to call this semantic mysticism where people are using the same words with entirely different meanings. And this is a clarification we need to make when we're talking about these two religious views. Mormonism explicitly denies the foundational sine qua non that without which of classical Christianity, Nicaea. And they assert polytheism in its place. Now there's a lot more that could go on to like, you know, their view of marriage and its connection to salvation, their view of sin, their view of heaven, their view of Jesus and Satan and the whole thing. In fact, I have not been able to find in Mormon doctrine a single thing except the resurrection of Jesus, in which they actually overlap with classical Christianity. And substance, they're a different religion. And by the way, Joseph Smith agrees with that. As a 15 year old in Palmyra, New York, he sought wisdom from God about which denomination, which Christian denomination was the true and accurate one. Now I think that's a, you know, fair question. If one is seeking wisdom from the text to find out which one has the right doctrines, but he was seeking a revelation for God to tell him. And this is why they go to James 1 and pray for wisdom. So God gives them a burden in the bosom to tell them which the right denomination is. It's the wrong approach. But in any event, what God showed him was that here I'm citing from Joseph Smith's testimony that he must join none of them, for they're all wrong, that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight and that they were all corrupt, teaching the doctrines and commandments of men. So the basic foundation for the LDS Church is that the true gospel was lost. And these current denominations of Christianity don't have the true gospel. They're corruptions, they're abominations. And Joseph Smith has to restore to the Latter Day Saints the uncorrupted gospel, which is this different gospel that they present in their theological work. So, okay, for the sake of discussion, maybe they're right. It's just a different gospel by their own acknowledgment, even by Joseph Smith's acknowledgment, it's a different gospel. So, and this is where it gets really hard for me, because I don't like to point the finger, but I. This is nothing short of deceptive in the way that Mormonism is being offered by Mormons to the world today. We are Christians, just like you. Now, if they'd say, we are Christians, okay, different from you, you're not Christians. Okay, I get that. Just like I could say, I'm a Christian and you're not. And all that is is to say that my beliefs conform with the definition of Christian and yours do not conform to the definition of Christian. If the Mormons want to say, wait a minute, your understanding of Christianity is false, it's corrupt, it's an abomination to God according to our founder, Joseph Smith, and therefore, sorry, folks, but you're just completely mistaken on this. You've been deluded. We're here to correct you. I'm completely sympathetic to that approach as well. I get it, and I'm not offended in the least. Maybe your view is true if your view is true, Mine is false if you're Christians. I'm not. However, if my view is true, if I'm a Christian, then you're not. You're something else. But we can't both be Christian. And I think that many Mormons don't know this. They haven't thought this through. They don't know about the competing views enough for all the change to fall into the meter. And this might even be true of Mormon missionaries. But I'll tell you what. LDS academics know this. They wrote this book, LDS beliefs. They've made it really clear that they have rejected the host of sinequa nons of classical Christianity, including the foundational one, which is the deliverances of the Council of Nicaea. All right, maybe they were wrong then. If you have true Christianity, we don't. If we have Christianity, that's accurate, you don't. We can't both be Christian. Can't we just acknowledge that publicly without rancor, and then give reasons for our points? And may the best religion win. How about that? That piece, by the way, if you want all the details, is called Is Mormonism just another Christian denomination? You can find it on our website@str.org org let's take a break. Coming back to your calls in just a moment.
- [30:53]
Stand to Reason Announcer
Would you like a Stand a Reason speaker at your event? Greg, Alan, Tim, John, Megan and I Tripp are available in person or online just email bookingstr.org our team speaks on a wide range of topics from issues in bioethics, gender and science to topics in apologetics, theology and philosophy and how to respond to other worldviews, all from a biblical perspective. Whether it's a conference, youth event, or Sunday service, we're here to give confidence for every Christian, clear thinking for every challenge, courage and grace for every encounter. We all know we should be reading the Bible, but why? In the latest episode of my podcast, Thinking Out Loud with Alan Schliemann, I want to unpack three reasons why you need to make daily Bible reading a priority. Look for this podcast on iTunes, Spotify your favorite podcast app, or at the top of the homepage@str.org hey friends, would you like to be encouraged throughout your week with timely, relevant content meant to bolster your knowledge, wisdom and character? Or maybe you have a desire to be connected with other like minded Christians from around the world? If so, then you need to follow Stand to Reason on social media. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. Not only will you be able to interact with other Stan Treason followers, but you'll also stay up to date and informed on our latest resources and events. In our current culture, it's important to have something of value to break up your social media feed. So just visit str.org and find the links to all of our social media platforms at the bottom of the homepage.
- [32:37]
Greg Kokel
All right, time to go to callers and John in El. Granada. Is that in Southern California, John? Or where is that?
- [32:45]
John
That's up by San Francisco.
- [32:47]
Greg Kokel
Oh, up by San Francisco. Okay, glad to have you on board. Welcome to the show.
- [32:52]
John
Thank you. I just want to say I'm deeply indebted to STR for equipping me to be a winsome ambassador. And I will be a winsome ambassador for the rest of my life.
- [33:05]
Greg Kokel
Oh, yeah.
- [33:08]
John
But I was thinking Paul on the road to Damascus, and I don't know how to characterize it, but maybe he was seeking God but not seeking Jesus, and God kind of overwhelmed him with the evidence for Jesus. So maybe we don't. It doesn't matter if we're a winsome ambassador.
- [33:34]
Greg Kokel
What do you think? Well, Jesus said, and I have. I'm trying to think. I don't have the references by memory, but we have a little book, a little booklet actually, called Jesus the only way, 100 verses. And I've isolated 100 verses in the New Testament, some from the Gospels and some from the Book of Acts, and some from the Epistles that either explicitly or implicitly teach that Jesus is the only way of salvation. There's nine lines of argument, but one line of argument that's especially advanced by Jesus is that if you love God, you would love me. Since you reject me, you are rejecting the Father. Now, he says that probably five to seven different times, maybe more. There's a lot of verses that make this particular point that your reaction to Jesus is. Is an evidence of how much you actually are concerned about the Father. So with that in mind, Jesus statement in mind, my comment regarding Paul is going to be, well, Paul was committed to Jewish religion. I'm not sure how faithful he was being to God, although it's hard to tell because now when Jesus finally does appear to him in this dramatic way, he does change his mind. But he really had his arm twisted, didn't he? Yeah, but it was during Jesus ministry. Notice this happened in the Book of Acts. So during Jesus ministry, Jesus is saying, you know, if you reject me, you reject the Father who sent me. So Paul was rejecting Jesus up until the Damascus road, and he was rejecting the God who sent Jesus, according to Jesus comment. Now, he does say that he was zealous more than others for the religion of his fathers. I'm not sure exactly how he puts it, but something like that. You can read about this, and there's a couple times he gives this testimony, and in Philippians 3, he talks about how vigorously he was pursuing the obligations of his office. But then he counts it all as loss for Christ. So you'd have to look at some of those statements to see exactly what he says his commitment to God actually was. But I'm just going by what Jesus says. Underneath all of that, there was a commitment to something else. And that was a Commitment to pride and self and all that other stuff that he counts as nothing now that he knows Christ. So it was a. It was a dramatic event that God used to bring him to Christ. No question about that. And I think that's apparently what some people need. Not everybody needs that. And some people who have dramatic events don't respond. Look at the Pharisees in response to Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. This is in John, chapter 11, okay? And so you have this dramatic resurrection. It wasn't one of these things where he comes into the room of a sick person and says, talitha Kumi, the little girl, arise. And she gets out of sickbed having been dead. You know, this is a guy who's been in the tomb for three days, and he stinks, and he calls him forward. So did people believe in him? Sure, as a result of that. But there were a whole lot of people said, oh, my goodness, Jesus just raised somebody from the dead. Now we're in trouble because people are going to believe we've got to kill Jesus. And then if you flip over from John 11 to John 12, they also say, by the way, killing Jesus isn't enough. We've also got to kill. Guess who?
- [37:41]
John
Lazarus.
- [37:42]
Greg Kokel
Lazarus. So it is not the case that if somebody has a real dramatic characterization of the reality of God, that they're going to turn to him. Jesus talked about the rich man and Lazarus, a different Lazarus. You know, both had died, and the rich man's in torment, and he's asking for help, for comfort. There's no comfort for him. And then he says, hey, let me go back. Somebody warned my brothers that this is in store for them. And I think that. But in the parable, Jesus is saying. And I'm trying to think who the speaker is in this particular parable.
- [38:23]
John
Father Abraham.
- [38:24]
Greg Kokel
Oh, yeah, Father Abraham. Thank you. And he's saying, even if somebody comes back from the dead, they won't believe. So we can see that even though Paul did respond to a very dramatic intervention by God, not everybody will. Even with a resurrection, they're going to find a way to explain it away or ignore it, or maybe not. In the case of the Pharisees, they didn't try to explain it away. They didn't even ignore it. They said, yes, Jesus rose this guy from the dead, raised him from the dead. We got to kill Jesus and we got to kill the guy he raised. So there was no, like, there was no rationalization attempt at all. It was just rank rebellion against what had been revealed to them.
- [39:14]
John
Yeah, well, what do you think about if God, if the Father draws you, even if initially. I mean, I guess my question. If the Father draws you, is being a winsome ambassador irrelevant?
- [39:40]
Greg Kokel
Is being an ambassador relevant? If God is drawing.
- [39:43]
John
If God is drawing you, God is choosing you. Is being a winslem ambassador irrelevant?
- [39:50]
Greg Kokel
Why would it not be relevant?
- [39:54]
John
Because God the Father made compelling case to Paul that he changed his mind.
- [40:02]
Greg Kokel
Okay, so in John chapter six, it does talk about this. I'm looking for the exact reference here. This is the bread of life discourse. And basically it says there that no one can come to me but the Father, draw him. And all the Father gives to me, I lose nothing, but I raise up in the last day. So there is an inevitability when the Father is drawing that they come to Jesus and they will be saved. Okay, and so are you asking then what's the point of a Christian ambassador in that context? Is that right?
- [40:41]
John
Right.
- [40:41]
Greg Kokel
Right. Yeah. Okay, so on the last hour, I was talking about the Nativity and the. The reality that. That Jesus was being hounded by the baby Jesus was Herod was after him and trying to kill him to destroy the prophecy and the Messiah and all that other stuff is kingship. So let me ask you a question. Did God ordain that Jesus would be born in Nazareth and also be crucified 33 years later to save the world from their sins? Did God ordain that?
- [41:19]
John
Yes.
- [41:20]
Greg Kokel
Okay, so there's absolutely nothing that could have gotten in the way of that. Would that be fair, given that God ordained it?
- [41:28]
John
I would think so.
- [41:30]
Greg Kokel
Yeah. I think so too. If God ordained it to happen before the foundations of the earth. And one Peter talks about that also. But we just know this is the general course of history and the biblical revelation, okay, if God ordained it, it's going to take place. I had a young lady, she must have been about 12 or 13, with her dad, ask me this very same question that you're raising. And it was at a reality conference. And so I asked her that question. I just asked you, did God ord this? And she said, yes. Well, that's the right answer. I said, then why is it that the angel appears in a dream to Joseph after Jesus is born and tells them to take Jesus to Egypt
- [42:14]
John
to protect the child.
- [42:15]
Greg Kokel
To protect the child. Okay, so by one line of reasoning, let's put it this way, there is no reason to anybody to protect the child because God had foreordained that child to live 33 more years and die on a cross. Okay, that's one line of Thinking. That was the kind of thinking that prompted your question. But at the same time, God has ordained particular means to the end a pregnancy, a pregnancy where the birth of Jesus would be in Nazareth, sorry, in Bethlehem. So they had to make this arduous journey to Bethlehem. When she's pregnant, almost ready to deliver, then she delivers, and there's a threat from Herod, and now they got to run from the threat from Herod. So the point I'm making is all of these pieces are interwoven. The classic way of characterizing it is God ordains the means as well as the end. He doesn't just snap his fingers And Jesus appears 33 AD and says, okay, I'm ready to be crucified. Whip me, spit on me, crown of thorns, put me to death so I can rise from the dead. No, there's all of these particulars that all follow in line, that are all part of the larger program. And they entail people making decisions to do things that are important as part of the process. And so that was true of Joseph and Mary going to Bethlehem. They were in the wrong town. And not only going to Bethlehem, but going to Egypt probably a couple of years after. That's my take on the text with the young lad or the toddler, Jesus and staying there for years and then four years, something like that, then coming back and then not going back to Bethlehem, but going to Nazareth. You know, I mean, there's all these things that are happening that are particulars that God wants to take place for the divine purpose of God, ordained from the beginning of time or before time, to roll out and be fulfilled. It's all connected. And that's why even though God draws and convicts and rescues and saves those whom he foreknew, he predestined. Those he predestined, he called. Those he called, he justified. Those he justified, he sanctified. Those he sanctified, he glorified. That's all right there in Romans 8, that whole sequence of events, very powerful about God's sovereign working. But all of that, that gets accomplished through particular means. Our sanctification, he's guaranteed our sanctification predestined us to become conformed to the image of His Son. But how does he do that? Through means, through all kinds of circumstances, through hardships, through challenges, through trials. It isn't just snap of the fingers and it's over with. It's through a process that God ordains. And this is true of all of these details. And we don't need to look behind the curtain of God's sovereignty to try to figure out what's going on. We get some insight from the text on the issue of salvation, and John 6 is one example of it. And that's what you referred to. But that doesn't take away all of the particular things that are involved in the process of this coming to fruition. Does that make sense to you?
- [45:57]
John
Yeah. And then plus you have, like Peter, where be ready to give an account with gentleness and respect.
- [46:06]
Greg Kokel
Yes.
- [46:07]
John
So, I mean, that's more evidence for the case to be a winsome ambassador.
- [46:14]
Greg Kokel
Yes. And you know what? There's actually a more powerful one that's a great reference because it identifies the means or manner by which we are to engage with the truth so as to be persuasive to people. But there's another one along the same line that is much more explicit, and it's in 2 Timothy, chapter 2, the last verse of chapter 2 of 2 Timothy. And here's what Paul says there. Remember, this is where the last letter that Paul writes, and he says there at the end of chapter two, the Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, and patient when wronged, with gentleness, correcting those who are in opposition. Okay, that's kind of what you are referring to about 1 Peter 3, right? Yep. Right. But then he goes on and adds this. If perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to eternal life, or I should say, leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses. In other words, God's got to grant them to come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him, to do his will. So here he identifies another thing. It's not just captive by sin, but captive by the devil. And we are to be kind and gracious in the way he described there, so that maybe God would grant them a change of mind and they will come to their senses and escape having been held captive. So notice how the two are connected there without any apology. The means, the gracious engagement of the believer with the nonbeliever, and the end, which is rescuing from the devil's grip and having them come to an understanding of eternal life. It's all there. So beautiful. Yeah, it's just all bound together. And other passages that say essentially the same thing. It's not up to him who wills or him who works works, but God grants mercy. I think that's in Romans 9. I mean, this is one of the reasons that I believe in sovereign grace because I see passages like this that strike me as so completely unequivocal, they can't be read in any other way. So, you know, I know there's debate on this even on my own team. We have differences of opinion, but hopefully that helps. What do you think, John?
- [48:55]
John
Absolutely.
- [48:56]
Greg Kokel
Okay, buddy, thank you so much. Yeah. Have a happy New Year. You too. All the best to you. Bye bye now.
- [49:02]
John
Bye bye.
- [49:03]
Greg Kokel
All right, we got one more call and Trisha, you made it just under the wire here. Welcome to the show.
- [49:11]
Trisha
All right, well, I'm glad to talk to you. I happen to remember that you were going to be on a different schedule today.
- [49:17]
Greg Kokel
Yes. Well, good for you. I'm glad you called.
- [49:20]
Trisha
And I can't wait to hear that Mormon piece because I've called you before about Mormons and their view of the Trinity. So I'll be looking forward to hearing the whole that's thing about that. But so I'm calling today about the church I go to. And I like the church. It's big. And this past Sunday when I was there, and they're doing Christmas stuff now, so it's a little different. So there's a lot of visitors. So I. I showed up a little bit, probably 10 minutes late. So I was a little late.
- [49:52]
Greg Kokel
I walk in there posthumously. You mean you showed up after you were dead? What did you say? Posthumously? You showed up there posthumously?
- [50:01]
Trisha
No, I showed up late. Like 10 or 15 minutes late.
- [50:04]
Greg Kokel
Oh, okay. I misunderstood. Sorry.
- [50:07]
Trisha
Oh.
- [50:07]
Greg Kokel
But no, I showed up after I was dead. Okay, go ahead.
- [50:11]
Trisha
No, so I walk in and usually there's ushers and things like that who will help seat you if you come in late. Well, there was nobody. And as I was looking around, I thought, well, probably because there's no more places to sit. So I went back out and I went into. Our church has a new. It's almost like a Starbucks. They sell coffee, they sell pastries and things. And I was sitting in there watching on the big screen. And then I look over to the corner and I see one of my students. I'm a teacher at a Christian school. I see one of my students, she's sitting in the back corner where she can't even see the tv. And she's scrolling on her phone and filing out her phone and this and that. And I'm thinking, why is she not in this service? And I mean, I. I could have gone and asked her. I probably will ask her at school. But it got. It kind of started to bother me that this church Has a coffee shop where you can buy. And, you know, people were coming in and out and purchasing coffee. So then it makes the service hard to hear because the machine's running. And then I see a man walk. I saw him a couple of different times. He had earbuds in, and his phone appeared to be listening to music. He could have been on the. On the security team. I don't know.
- [51:28]
Greg Kokel
I'm assuming he's on the security team. You shouldn't have earbuds on. So
- [51:34]
Trisha
walking around, getting exercise, and I'm like, what am I. What am I even doing here? Is this something Jesus would approve of? I mean, there's a bookstore in there. There's a bookstore in a couple of. Where. Where I live in northwest Arkansas. I mean, it's conservative. There are many churches here, and several of them are. Are large. And we even have a church where the pastor used to be president of the Southern Baptist Committee or whatever that is. His church is here. It has a bookstore because he's written several books, and so there are many churches like that here. I just. Is this something? Is this. I have options. Should I be attending this church? If Jesus were here, would he. Would he run in there flipping the table? And I. I know there's a different context maybe to when he went in and flipped the tables.
- [52:27]
Greg Kokel
Yeah.
- [52:28]
Trisha
In that scene. So that. That might not be a good comparison. And, you know, and then I was listening to this singing. I really never thought about this before, but super big production. And I'm just thinking, is this what we're supposed to be doing?
- [52:43]
Greg Kokel
Well, okay, let me respond. I just have a few minutes left. But most of what you said, I do not think is a liability of a megachurch itself. I think what you've identified at first is a bunch of individuals that are kind of going to church in an obligatory fashion. Okay, I got to go to church. So I'm just going to go and scroll and I'm going to search and whatever, watch TikTok or whatever. And that. I think that's a reflection on them, not on the church. And that they'd have a little coffee shop there. I mean, I went to church. Not my own church, but the church my daughter goes to, that we used to go to a very big church in our community, and they have a coffee thing, too. And the point of the coffee thing is not so people can hang out and have coffee and not go to the service. They can do that at Starbucks, but to hang out with each other, enjoy the coffee. So I think in general That's a nice concept. In the bookstore, the same thing. There are going to be individuals that are going to show up and then for whatever reason, not go to the service or just have a cavalier attitude towards it and hang out in the hallway and flip through their phones and whatever. I used to be bothered by seeing phones in people on phone in the service, but now I realize that a lot of people are taking notes on their phones and they're looking at scripture on their phone. So I can't just presume they're being distracted by their phone. So I don't take this as a liability of the church itself, but more of maybe a concern about individuals. You're always going to have individuals that are going to be doing their own thing, their mind wandering or whatever. Now, the worship you mentioned is a super big production. I think this could be a plus or a minus, just depending. In the church that I went to this weekend, the big one, I think they have magnificent worship. I really, really like it. And the fact that they have lots of people on the stage and lots of musicians means that it's easy to follow the music with people who are good singers, which to me is an important detail in worship. If you have smaller groups that don't sing well, then sometimes they don't even sing the melody well. And I've been in churches where I don't even know what they're singing. I don't recognize it until the rest of the church kind of finally gets, you know, the pace of the song and starts singing loudly and sings louder than the worship team. And then I think think, oh, I know that song, but it's only because I can understand what the church is singing, not the worship leaders. Now, this isn't always true of smaller teams, but it is true. It can be. And with a larger worship team, I think that overcomes that difficulty. Now, I do think that once the production gets the production high produced, highly produced, high production value, celebrations can be almost just entertainment. And that's where I think they've crossed the line. And you'll have to decide that for your own church. But I don't think that's the case in the church I was at this weekend or the church we're going to go to tomorrow night. Yeah, for me, tomorrow night right now is Christmas Eve. But I'm just saying we're going to that church because of the richness of the worship, and I think we're going to be really satisfied by that environment. But sometimes they get really. So it's almost like a big performance and people aren't singing, they're watching the performance. And so my deal is if the people who are doing the big production stuff on the stage are doing it in a way that actually encourages worship rather than replaces worship, I don't see any difficulty with that. But sometimes these big groups get into all their entertainment mode and pretty soon you can't follow the music anymore because they're doing their. Their funky kind of entertainment deal and. And that's what I don't like. So you still have to decide for yourself, Trisha, whether this is going to be a church that you like to go to. But what you've said so far doesn't give me pause. All right, hope that's helpful. There's the music. So I gotta go. But I do appreciate the call and being able to talk with you about this. All right, friends, Greg Kokel here for stand a reason. Go out and give him heaven this week the last week of the year. Bye now. It.