S4E48 Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 1

Summary

Episode Summary: Standard of Truth S4E48 – Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 1

Release Date: November 28, 2024
Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Professor Richard Leduc

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Introduction and Banter

The episode begins with Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Professor Richard Leduc engaging in friendly banter about their impending dissertation defenses. Dr. Dirkmaat humorously remarks on his upcoming book aspirations, blending business acumen with religious themes.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [02:02]: "I’m about to write a book called ‘If You Do What I Tell You To, You’ll Be a Billionaire.’"

Professor Richard Leduc [02:26]: "I'll make it a prosperity business book."

Their lighthearted conversation sets the tone for an engaging and personable discussion, showcasing their camaraderie and individual personalities.

Listener Engagement and Emails

The hosts transition to addressing listener emails, sharing humorous and heartfelt messages from their audience. They discuss interactions with missionaries and family members, highlighting the podcast's impact and the community's active participation.

Professor Richard Leduc [11:15]: "We have to make this happen. This is so... it’s all sweetness and light and lovely and virtuous."

One notable email from Cindy reminisces about watching George C. Scott’s version of "A Christmas Carol" and shares personal family experiences related to the film.

Cindy [20:17]: "George C. Scott is the quintessential Ebenezer script Scrooged."

These interactions demonstrate the podcast’s role in fostering a supportive and interactive listener base.

Main Discussion: Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates

The core of the episode delves into the often-overlooked witnesses of the Book of Mormon’s gold plates, focusing primarily on Mary Whitmer and Josiah Stowell.

Mary Whitmer’s Witness Accounts

Dr. Dirkmaat introduces a friend’s inquiry about Mary Whitmer’s experience, leading to an exploration of her role as an additional witness. He recounts David Whitmer’s 1878 account, where Mary Whitmer reported an angelic visitation during a tumultuous time in the church’s early history.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [32:15]: "If you were Mary and Mary Whitmer sees the plates and the angel and you don't, you've got to be thinking like..."

Professor Leduc adds depth to the discussion by questioning why Emma Smith, who was closely involved with Joseph Smith, did not report a similar experience.

Professor Richard Leduc [41:06]: "Why do they get to see angels and I don't?"

These reflections highlight the complexities surrounding firsthand accounts and the selective nature of spiritual experiences among early church members.

John C. Whitmer’s Supplementary Account

Furthering the narrative, Dr. Dirkmaat shares John C. Whitmer’s account, which complements Mary Whitmer’s experience by providing additional details about the visitation and its impact on her faith and duties.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [40:30]: "He was stating that plates were leaves of gold with characters written on each sheet."

This layered storytelling underscores the multifaceted witness testimonies that contribute to the foundation of the Book of Mormon’s legitimacy.

Josiah Stowell’s Testimony

Introducing another layer, Josiah Stowell’s account is discussed as a unique witness outside the primary three and eight. Stowell claims to have seen the plates and even interacted with them directly, offering a courtroom testimony that adds intrigue to the historical narrative.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [54:10]: "He says that as the plates are passing through the window, the covering gets knocked off, and he sees a portion of them."

Stowell’s testimony is presented as a pivotal yet controversial piece of evidence that further complicates the historical discourse surrounding the plates.

Theological Reflections and Doctrinal Insights

The hosts engage in a thoughtful analysis of Doctrine and Covenants Section 25, pondering why certain faithful members like Emma Smith did not witness the plates directly. They discuss the implications of divine wisdom in withholding such experiences from individuals.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [55:03]: "When you’re dealing with half-century or, you know, 70 years later reminiscences or secondhand accounts or thirdhand accounts, one of the things you really lose is this element of time."

The conversation navigates the balance between faith, historical evidence, and the subjective nature of spiritual experiences, emphasizing the importance of honesty and integrity in witness testimonies.

Concluding Thoughts and Teaser for Next Episode

As the episode draws to a close, Dr. Dirkmaat and Professor Leduc reflect on the significance of these additional witnesses and their enduring impact on Latter-Day Saints’ faith. They tease the next episode, promising to unveil another powerful spiritual experience related to the gold plates.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [58:13]: "When I was in Garrett's ward... I have somebody that was next to me hearing me sing, inviting me to no longer attend."

Professor Richard Leduc [58:31]: "What a tease."

This finale leaves listeners anticipating further exploration into the rich tapestry of testimonies that underpin the Church’s foundational narratives.

Key Takeaways

• Mary Whitmer’s Unique Witness: Mary Whitmer’s experience as an additional witness provides a deeper understanding of the personal sacrifices and spiritual struggles faced by early church members.

• Josiah Stowell’s Contested Testimony: Stowell’s account adds complexity to the historical record, presenting a firsthand witness that challenges and enriches traditional narratives.

• Doctrinal Implications: The discussion underscores the role of divine wisdom in selectively revealing miraculous experiences, fostering a nuanced approach to faith and evidence.

• Community Engagement: Listener emails reveal the podcast’s influence and the community’s active engagement with church history and personal faith journeys.

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For listeners eager to delve deeper into the additional witnesses of the gold plates and their implications for Latter-Day Saints’ faith, Standard of Truth promises an enlightening continuation in the upcoming episodes.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Professor Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I am joined by my ever so close. In fact, we were just talking about how we're going to have to splice into our pre recorded introduction. We're gonna have to splice in Dr. In a very, you know, thick Bostonian accent. When the day comes, my friend, nearly professor, nearly doctor, but certainly already Professor Richard leduc.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. We have a date. We have a date for defense. It is there. My committee member has signed off on scheduling that and so we are weeks away.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's one of the few dates that you never want a second date from. Yes, a dissertation defense date is similar to a blind date. You just don't ever want a second one.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So the funny back and forth has been that we're scheduling for me and members of my family to come out for the graduation in great Stillwater, Oklahoma. And I'm defending only several days before the graduation. And my wife's like, boy, you're. You're really cutting that close, aren't you?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You're just like, look, there's a fine line between confidence and cockiness. And I choose not to walk the line. I'm a business PhD. What do you want from me? I'm about to write a book called if you do what I tell you to, you'll be a billionaire. That's what every, every person in business does, right?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's right. That's right. So, yes. So I. It's in a couple of weeks and we're very excited and I think you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Should mix your business book that you write about. If you do what I tell you to, you'll become a billionaire. With religion. If you do what I tell you to and are just righteous enough, then you'll be a billionaire.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I'll make it a prosperity business book.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Oh. First of all, it would sell like hotcakes. I mean, it would. And you just have to invent a few examples of people that you claim are successful whether they are or not. And it would be gold.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It is funny. So. So there are a few things that send me into a blind rage more than prosperity. Gospel. I was talking to a gentleman who used to be a mission president in Cambodia. I was talking with him yesterday.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I like how you just casually have friends that used to be mission presidents.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It's a friend of a friend you're.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

About to name drop things like. So I was talking to a member of the 70 yesterday and he said, I mean, I feel like that's the direction you're headed. You almost have the PhD in hand and as soon as you get it, you just start. Big timing, everybody listening.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, so I was talking with him and. Because we were looking at a potential. Because while this podcast is dropping, I am now currently in Argentina. I'm not recording, but I will be as this goes out to the throngs and the masses. So as, as I, as I'm chatting with him, he's talking about people in remote parts of Cambodia and Vietnam that he knows that go to church once a month because it is an insane expedition on a boat. And in fact, there was a conference talk a couple of years ago about some of the sacrifice that people make to get to church. And so he's talking about these fake faithful saints that only have the ability to go to church once a month because they're so far away in the jungles of Southeast Asia. And I just got so angry as he's telling me this faith promoting story.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All you could think was if they were more righteous, they'd have closer church.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

They'D have more money, and they'd have private planes. And I'm like, man, these people are just the best people. Anyway, it just makes me so angry.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Has it made you think maybe we need to organize a temple trip from Vietnam or Cambodia to the temple?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Oh, 100. Like, that's. Oh, like, as he's telling me stories, I'm like, oh, we got to make this happen. This is so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I have a very good friend who runs a charity in Vietnam. You're kidding. Yeah. Yep.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

And how talked about this before?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, because you are only talking about how smart you are now that you have your PhD. I feel like in the last few weeks, you know, everything you've been is talking down to me. You're like, well, that's because you're stupid because you don't have a business PhD. That's why I brought it up twice. You just ignored me.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, Cambodia is getting. They're supposed to be getting a temple next year. It's supposed to be dedicated, but who knows, you know, these things Scheduling wise, we don't know. But anyway, the initial conversation is underway. It's very exciting. Faithful saints in Cambodia and Vietnam. And anyway, it's all, it's all sweetness and light and lovely and virtuous.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It is pretty awesome to think that by the time this podcast drops, you will be full time in the temple with people going through the temple straight.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Drowning youth.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Are you going to be doing baptisms? Is that what.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah, no, it's the most fun part. The most fun part is because they'll have priests that'll come and we want them to do as many as possible, obviously. Right. But like they're, it's like a week long of these rotations of these youth going through. And so, you know, so, you know, I'll get a chance and my son Parker will get a chance and Andrew will get a chance. He's the one with the terrible mustache that he's growing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He did that for this to help people feel more comfortable because now he looks more like a Spanish conquistador, which goes over well in South America.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But so the problem is my Spanish is so, so bad. And they have, they've never been to the temple before. They've never done baptisms before. And so I'm trying to explain. You just need to sit down and all, whatever. But my Spanish is terrible. And so I'm literally. They're going stiff as a board and I'm having to shove them to the bottom of the font and they're just coming up and snots coming and they're just like drowning. It's the most fun part.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then they come out like it was the most spiritual experience of my life nearly being drowned by now. Dr. Leduc.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I won't be a doctor. Oh, then yeah, still ABD.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But, well, it is better to be a doctor if you're drowning people. Right?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's true.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so these temples, they must get overwhelmed when you show up with a 120 people and say, hey, let's get some endowments rolling.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, so look, there's a lot, there's a lot of pre work that goes into it. You've got to get. So we, we speak with the, the district presidents and the branch presidents and the mission presidents and we speak with the area authorities and, and then we, we get them to communicate to the area presidency to get their blessing on it. And then we coordinate with the mission or the temple president and we had. We have to bring our own workers. That's part of the problem is that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That, well, how are you going to have workers? Where are you bringing them from?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, that's. That's President Ruggiero's job. That's not my job.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So. So you're. So is that the local district president?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's the district president down in Rio Gallegos, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, how. So there are trained temple workers even though they're so far away from the temple they can't ever do them.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So, so, so he has friends up in near Buenos Aires and so he's inviting them to come and help. And then they're also set apart temple because it's their temple district even though it's so far away. And so then those people are coming up as well. And so. Yeah, no, you have to coordinate your own workers too because too bad Becky.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Doesn'T speak Spanish because she is a trained temple worker. She the devil for years.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I mean, my understanding is that you have to be set apart for that particular temple. I think there are special whatever. So I can do baptisms and I can hand out towels, so I can do that. So we'll be mostly with the youth and then all the adult temple workers will be with the adults doing all of the other stuff.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How has the planning on garment purchasing done better for those of you who haven't listened to us talk about this last time? Last time, Richard thought it would be an amazing thing to get 100 people endowed that have never been endowed before. But then only after they were all endowed came to the realization, huh, these people are going to have to wear garments now. And none of them have garments and none of them have money.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

We have coordinated better with the district around that. I imagine that there's going to be a little bit of an element of the Charlie and the chocolate factory scene in when everyone's grabbing the candy and stuff near the beginning of the movie. But, but I, we. We've done a much better job planning. And part of the reason is because I've outsourced all of that to people that are far smarter and better that are now part of the. Of the larger charity organization. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And we're hoping that there'll be some videography of this. Is that still.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, the hope is, is that we'll. We'll have some, some video to be.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Able to inside the temple. Don't worry, there's already someone writing an email right now.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

No, no, no. Of kind of the experience and what it is and put together a video and put it on the website and have links to it that people can see. Because again, the whole reason that this is even happening is because of the generous donations of members of The.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have an amazing body of listeners. I mean, we just do. The fact that all of you just said, you know what, I'm going to take, I'm going to take that 16 year old to the temple who's never been to the temple, and you just said, I'm going to throw $200 down on that $300. I mean, that is. It's incredible how you demonstrated your testimony with being willing to help other people get to the temple. I'm still in awe.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it's pretty awesome. So anyway, I'm excited to share. I'm going to be super weepy when I come back, I'm sure. And it's going to be, going to be awesome. But Garrett, we have several emails to get to before we get into discussion on potentially gold plate witnesses.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We may, I mean, at this point we'll just talk about whatever, but yeah, gold plates.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

All right, so this, this email comes to us from a missionary. Hey, Richard, is the font of the subject line big enough for you to. This is the subject line, by the way, for you to read without straining yourself. If you want, I can try sending the email again with the whole body up here instead. It's very nice. This came.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So this cheeky missionary decided to put a giant like 20 point font in the subject line of the email because he thinks Richard doesn't have the ability to read or see.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, both, actually. I've gone blind now. I went from readers to full glasses all the time and I've never shown an ability to read. It starts. Hey, we had this contact in our schedule from the last missionaries to say happy birthday to one Garrett Dickmeat. Not sure who that is, but Happy birthday, Garret. Spelled with many U's and GH's and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

T's as if I was from Louisiana. Yes, if I was a Creole from Louisiana. As my.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I love the idea of a missionary coming in and having in the, in the, you know, in the mission book for their area, their area book. Hey, make sure you wish Garrett a happy birthday. Garrett? Who's Garrett?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, especially spelled like that.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, just kidding. It's me, your loyal littner. I recommended your podcast the other day with the warning that they would hate it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That they would hate it.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, there's more, but hate it tickled my funny bone there. Unless they could make it past the first six seasons like a gangrenous blind antelope collapsing in a sad heap just past the finish line, only to discover that a business PhD and implied referrals and doesn't improve the content of a faith and history and sports and temple betting. I don't remember temple betting podcast. One jot I don't recall ever maybe.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Was about where temples would be announced. Perhaps, I don't know.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Oh, no, it was the number. It was the number of temples.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The number of temples.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

And it wasn't us that did it. It was a listener. And they took the under. And it's like, you know, President Nelson's the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, it's President Nelson. So we like all took the over. We were way on the over. Yeah, it was like taking candy from a baby. It was like the mob had bet on the other side. It was just. It was.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, the reps in their pocket. But seriously, thank you for the podcast. I feel more enlightened after almost every episode and I always feel my faith grow. Your knowledge of church history is impressive and inspiring. Almost thou persuadest me to get a PhD in history instead of computer science. Well, don't. Don't do that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah. If there's one thing that this podcast should have taught you is you don't want a PhD in history and you don't want a PhD in business.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

You don't want a PhD in anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What are you doing? If you had it, at least if he had a PhD. No, you're right. You don't really want it. You're going to become a doctor. You should probably become one that works in an operating room. That's the best way to become a doctor.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

You, yours truly and standardly Elder Christiansen from the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow, the number of emails we now get. So I have to start believing that these are AI generated at this point because we've received more emails from the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission than there are missionaries in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission. There has to be.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So we looked it up and poor, poor President Hoffman, who is the mission president for the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission, must roll his eyes in every zone conference.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He must. Every time some, you know, a missionary gets up there. Like, I was listening to the Standard Truth podcast and they said that you should take the over on Boise State. I mean, I don't. I doubt that they're bearing that as their testimony, but I hope that President Hoffman is. Knows that we hope that they're getting good testimony out of this, despite us talking right now.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

All right, next one comes to us from Andrew. Hello. My daughter is serving in the Indianapolis, Indiana Mission. Not quite as many listeners there, by the way, as we have in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We're going to need your daughter to.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Step it up as I have listened to your episodes starting at the beginning. I have thought how valuable it would be for her to listen about the restoration. Her testimony was not so strong in high school, so she did not pay much attention in seminary or Sunday school. Well, I don't know if you're familiar with that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's called being a teenager. Yep. Yes.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I think. Did I already mention in here Andrew teaching the Come follow me on Sunday and the reactions. All right. This was great. All right. I swore that I did. Maybe I didn't. So Andrew's teaching the come Follow me on Sunday to our kids. And I talked to him after, and he was like, I just really kind of disappointed in Parker and Max that they didn't pay more attention to the lesson. And I just. I'm really concerned that, you know, they're not taking this as seriously as they should. And I'm like, oh, oh, Andrew.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yep. How soon as they get a little authority as they suppose.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I'm like. I'm like, I don't know. If you recall about three years ago, you and your brother Rigdon were worse than them. So the fact that they were there at all, I'm chalking up is a huge win. And it's sweet for you to care so much and they're going to be just fine. But it was. It was very. It made me laugh, man. I was like, oh, boy, that is sweet. But she graduated. And a love. She graduated. A loving heavenly father gave her some pretty severe health challenges that drew her into. I'm pretty sure that the way that my pacing on that was terrible. Yeah, it sounded like. Yeah, that couldn't have been read worse. Drew. Drew into him and made her have a deep. A dig deep to see what she really believed. Boy, I have. This is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I feel like at this point, maybe we should just call them and have them read the email.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Because I'm bringing AI back. I'm bringing it back.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We just need, like, that computer voice that is like. And calling to come back at this time. We need it to be like that.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

But she is the first to tell you that her gospel knowledge is not as strong as she would like it to be. I have learned so much from your podcast and I think she would, too. I can't. She can't access any podcasts at the moment, though. I would really. I was really bummed I could not share the things I'm learning with her in that way. And then you guys started saying that you had a way to share your podcast with missionaries who can't access it. In other ways. I'm so grateful. I know it will be a benefit to so many people. And that is true. So we grant access through the Google. The Google Drive, and many missionaries and their Samsung phones can access the Google Drive.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They would access photos on a Google Drive.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Exactly right. So we give them access to it, and then they can then get in. And I learned that lesson when my kids were on missions and I wanted them to listen to the podcast, which they also didn't want to do. And. And then there we are. So thank you, Andrew. I feel like I read your email perfectly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't believe that, but go ahead.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Okay. This last email comes to us from Cindy. Dear brothers in the Gospel, as we are nearing the Christmas season, I had to give a shout out. I thought my family was literally the only one on the planet who watched George C. Scott's version of the Christmas Carol every year. I so detest any other version of the Christmas Carol, including the Muppet version Richard seems to tolerate and the one starring Captain Picard. I was. It was Christmas of 1987 or 88, and my family received a bootleg VHS copy smuggled into West Germany, where we were living at the time. Like Richard's copy, it too was taped off tv, but we only got IBM commercials. I remember those IBM commercials. That. That's hilarious because our version was also the 1987 version. And. And it also had the IBM commercials and it had like a wreath. It was great. Oh, my gosh. This really takes me back. Cindy. Thank you. Because that was. That's who was. Who sponsored the airing. And when you're an American living in Europe, you're starving for American commercials, believe me. So that was. That was a disappointment. Anywho, I've watched it virtually every Christmas since. George C. Scott is the quintessential Ebenezer script Scrooged. And my little sister and I were terrified of ignorance and want. Now that is no joke. My sister and I were also terrified of ignorance and want as the ghost of Christmas Present opened his robe and they were just sunken faces and terrifying ignorance and want.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Fear them.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Bury. She would bury her face in the cushions as that scene would come up across her tv. Thanks for making me feel like I'm not alone in my love for George C. Scott version of the Christmas Carol. I can't get my husband to make this a tradition because he says it's too dark. And this is coming from a man who plays Fallout and has no problem watching depressing dystopian films. My wife had a similar Reaction, Cindy. And we watched it with our infant or toddler children, and they were terrified. So we had to go to the Mickey's Christmas Carol, and until they became teenagers, and then we transitioned over. I believe this may have been one of the complaints from your spouses as well. I should have kept reading. I've made my younger son watch it with me, but he did it merely out of the goodness of his heart. So I sit alone either Christmas Eve or Christmas Day and watch it for free on tubi all by myself. Speaking of tubi, they have a movie on there called Emma My Story. Is that okay to watch? I wasn't sure if it was something negative or historically inaccurate. Garrett, is your thoughts on the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, it's. It's. You can't ever ask me whether or not something's historically accurate because, well, you can.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

The answer is just no.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, right. Because it's a film now. Look, it is not. It's certainly not antagonistic, and it is definitely pro church and pro Emma. And it is. You know, it is certainly not negative, but at the same time, it is. There are multiple things that I would, as a historian, you'd be like, it's not actually how it happened. I mean, the biggest problem with anything that's a biography show is that in order to have a movie, you have to have dialogue. Well, because you don't have, like, a video clip, you know, I mean, it's not hard to figure out John F. Kennedy saying, you know, ask not what your country can do for you, but you could do for your country, because you have that on audio. You've heard it, you know, and the biggest issue is trying to create the dialogue that has to exist. And so in order to do that, you have to take creative license. Well, how do you think she reacted when X happened? Well, we don't know because she didn't write about how she reacted. No one else wrote about it either. So you have to kind of invent a narrative sort of for the story to go forward. So, like all movies, you should never take things that are in them as the gospel's truth. You should take. Take them always with a grain of salt, like, oh, that's interesting. I wonder if that's how it actually was portrayed. And then, you know, with specific questions, you could. You could go further, but I think you're fine. You're not going to lose your testimony watching it. It's well done.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's the highest praise you've ever given to any slightly historical.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't even say that you won't lose your testimony listening to this podcast.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

So I mean, that is high praise indeed. So there you go. Watch that on the 23rd on Joseph Smith's birthday. Hitting to be pretty hard for the holidays. Love your podcast. Love your testimonies. Both of you have brought me to tears. There is no doubt, I'm sure, that I brought her to tears on how poorly I read her email. I'm guessing there is no doubt of your love of Jesus Christ. And I've gained such an appreciation for church history and the early Saints who sacrificed so much, as well as Joseph Smith's kind heart and his devotion to Heavenly Father and the Savior. I'm a firm believer in not throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to our faith. I also subscribe to We Weren't There, We Don't Know the wonderful fruits of the Gospel of Jesus Christ of Latter Day the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are so evident. Why would I give that up over things we're not going to know the answers to in this life? That is a great approach, by the way. It is. Shout out. Garrett I too hate camping.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Take care. Oh, I now love this email.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Take care and thank you for all that you do. Anyways, thank you so much, Cindy. That's a very kind email and is a perfect transition into a discussion of additional witnesses of the Book of Mormon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so I actually had a friend this week text me, and their purpose in their text was they were asking about the story of Mary Whitmer. Mary Whitmer is a story that is often, it's often brought up because we know about the three witnesses, we know about the eight witnesses. It's very easy to know about them given the fact that, well, their statements are there in the Book of Mormon itself. And this friend had just, you know, they were reading in the book Saints where it referenced Mary Whitmer's experience, and for him it was one of the first times. I mean, he'd certainly heard about it in kind of like an abstract someone mentioning it sort of way, but he felt like at least that he hadn't felt it emphasized or studied before. And if you're wondering what this account is, it's an account that's told many years later by David Whitmer, who tells Joseph F. Smith and Orson Pratt in an interview he has with them about this experience that his mother had while Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon there in Fayette. So for those of you who don't just offhandedly remember exactly what the early timeline of church history is. And I mean, frankly know that's one, maybe two people. By June of 1829, things had gotten so bad in. In harmony that there were threats of mobocratic violence. And so Joseph had written to David Whitmer. Well, he had Oliver write to David Whitmer, who was Oliver's friend up in Fayette, and ask David Whitmer if a. Can we move to your house, to your parents house and live there to translate the rest of the Book of Mormon and also can you bring your wagon down to get us to move us up there? So that's the quintessential bad friend right there, right? This is the person who says, hey, Bill, is there any way you could know, use my car to drive me to the airport? You know, I'll take care of the gas. And when you say, okay, I guess we can do that, then they say, actually, I'm going to need your car. So that's, that's what. David Whitmer doesn't know Joseph yet. He knows of Joseph because Oliver's been writing him letters. And then David Whitmer gets this letter from Joseph and Oliver saying, hey, the Lord wants you to talk to your family about us moving in. The reason why we're leaving is because everyone hates us. But I'm sure it'll be fine if we go there. And by the way, we need you to take off your time in the planting season to bring your wagon down to get us to move us up. And this is when, you know, the miraculous event happened that the field was all plowed. And as a result, David Whitmer goes down and gets them and brings them up. They had just received the Aaronic priesthood and baptized one another on May 15th of 1829. And so only a couple of weeks later, the persecution or the threats of persecution had gotten to the point where Joseph is going to leave. Well, the Whitmer family was really kind of struggling to work through this very busy time of the season. I mean, if you're a farmer in upstate New York In June of 1829, it's literally the busiest month you could have outside of when you're harvesting. And so to just take a bunch of time off to move someone up there and, you know, the first elders quorum ever. It's like David Whitmer was the first Elders quorum president before there was an elders quorum. What? I got to move this guy and he doesn't even live in my boundaries. Yeah, you got to go move this guy. Doesn't even Live in your boundaries. But then on top of that, Mary Whitmer, whose role it was to find a place for everyone to sleep and to cook meals for everyone and to clean up after everyone. I mean, I'm not saying that Joseph was like finishing his chicken dinner and throwing the tin upside down on the ground saying, get it, Mary? I mean, the point is, every mouth, every adult mouth in the house is, is so many more woman hours of work that she then has to put in to provide food and, and, and other necessities around the house. And it just so happened to be that they showed up at the height of the working time when the other men have to be out working in the fields or they're not going to get their crop in. So all the way around, if you're Mary Whitmer, things are moving at a pretty quick pace for you here. A few months ago, I didn't know who Joseph Smith was. Now he's living in my house and translating this gold Bible and everyone hates him and says that he's a charlatan. And by the way, my laundry load just doubled. You know, I mean, there's something there that is bringing a frustration. So this is what David Whitmer told Orson Pratt and Joseph F. Smith in 1878. So again, David Whitmer is now looking back on an experience his mother had essentially 50 years earlier. Okay, so it's half a century later. We don't have an account of this earlier. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. I'm just saying that's one of the questions my friend has is, well, why weren't there more stories about this happening in the church? Well, first of all, because no one knew that it had happened until 1878. So the church was well into the later Utah period before we even have the first account of it. But this is what David Whitmer said when I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver, because he got them in the wagon. All of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us. While traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon and saluted us with good morning. It is very warm. At the same time, wiping his face or forehead with his hand, we returned the salutation. And by a sign from Joseph, I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, no, I am going to Cumorah. This name was somewhat new to me. I did not know what Cumorah meant, now, this is. This is 1829. It's June of 1829. David Whitmer hasn't read word one of any part of the Book of Mormon translation, but this person standing by the wagon is saying, nope, I'm going to Cumorah. We all gazed at him. My guess is Joseph gazed a little harder. Right? We all gazed at him and at each other. And as I looked around inquiringly of Joseph, the old man instantly disappeared so that I did not see him again. So they have this experience there. It was the messenger who had the plates, who had taken them from Joseph just prior to our starting from Harmony. Now, I know that that's not Mary Whitmer's story, but the reason why we tell that story is it's part of the Mary Whitmer story. David Whitmer. Soon after our arrival home, I saw something which led me to the belief that the plates were placed or concealed in my father's barn. I frankly asked Joseph if my supposition was right, and he told me that it was. Sometime after this, my mother was going to milk the cows, okay? So she's on her way to go do a pretty arduous labor when she was met out near the yard by the same old man, judging by her description of him. So they have this old guy appear to them while they're heading to Fayette from Harmony. And. And they say, hey, do you want to ride in the wagon? And he's like, nope, on my way to Kimora. And when they look over at Joe's, I'm like, what does he mean? They look back and the dude's gone. Right? Right. Well, apparently, the same guy, at least according to the description, appeared to Mary, that's David Whitmer's mother, and said, you have been very faithful and diligent in your labors, but you are tired because of the increase of your toil. Right. So things have gotten a lot more work to do now that these other people have shown up at her house. I mean, it's, you know, Ben Franklin who said that fish and house guests stink after three days. Right. I think that's attributed to him. And no matter how much you like a friend, you know, you travel with them or you. You stay in the same room with them for three days, by the fourth day, you're like, okay, we get it. We get it. And you're. You're. You know, which I can only assume is Richard. During every single podcast, you can't see the grimacing he's Doing on the other side, I can. I can see his. His. His. His disgust and, dare I say, anger as he. He looks across. He rages across the. The sands of time. But here they. They. They've shown up. It was something unexpected, and it really has increased her workload significantly. And clearly that's something that's on her mind as she's out to milk the cows. Notice who isn't milking the cows. It's not Oliver and Joseph. Right. So you are tired because of the increase of your toil. It is proper, therefore, that you should receive a witness that your faith may be strengthened. Thereupon. The man showed her the plates. My father and mother had a large family of their own. In addition to it, therefore, of Joseph and his wife Emma and Oliver, very greatly increased the toil and anxiety of my mother. And although she had never complained, she had sometimes felt that her labor was too much. Or at least she perhaps was beginning to feel so. But this circumstance, however, completely removed all such feelings and nerved her up for her increased responsibilities. So that's one of the accounts of this experience. But there's another account. That one comes from John Whitmer, so you may not have heard the John Whitmer account. John C. Whitmer. Sorry. So this is not John Whitmer, who's the son of Mary Whitmer. It's John C. Whitmer, who's the grandson, who's now relating again many years later. What he said his grandmother told him, okay, so one you have David Whitmer saying, this is what happened with my mother. And now you have a grandson saying, this is what happened with my grandmother. He said, I've heard my grandmother, Mary Musselman Whitmer, say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel. It was at the time that she said, when the translation was going on at the house of the elder Peter Whitmer, her husband, Joseph Smith, with his wife, and Oliver Cowdery, whom David Whitmer, a short time previous had brought up from Harmony, Pennsylvania, were all boarding with the Whitmers. And my grandmother, in having so many extra persons to care for besides her own large household, was often overloaded with work to such an extent that she felt it quite a burden. So at this point, some of those phraseologies are pretty similar. And you might start to feel like, well, maybe he's actually read his. Read David Whitmer's account of this. At any rate, it was at this time she said that one evening when, after Having done her usual day's work in the house, she went to the barn to milk the cows. She met a stranger carrying something on his back that looked like a knapsack. At first she was a little afraid of him, but when he spoke to her in a kind, friendly tone and began to explain to her the nature of the work that was going on in her house, she was filled with inexpressible joy and satisfaction. He then untied his knapsack and showed her a bundle of plates, which in size and appearance correspond with the description subsequently given by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. This strange person turned the leaves of the Book of the Plates over and leaf after leaf, and also showed her the engravings upon them, after which he told her to be patient and faithful in bearing her burden a little longer, promising that if she would do so, she would be blessed and her reward would be sure if she proved faithful to the end. The personage then suddenly vanished with the plates, and where he went, she could not tell. From that moment, my grandmother was enabled to perform her household duties with comparative ease, and she felt no more inclination to murmur because her lot was hard. I knew my grandmother to be a good, noble and truthful woman, and I have not the least doubt of her statement in regard to seeing the plates being strictly true. She was a strong believer in the Book of Mormon until the day of her death. So there's another account which provides a little bit more detail, and it's one of the reasons why we talk about Mary Whitmer being one of the witnesses of the plates. Now, one of the things my friend had asked is, do you think she saw the plates before the three and the eight witnesses did? Unfortunately, when you're dealing with half century or, you know, 70 years later reminiscences or secondhand accounts or thirdhand accounts, one of the things you really lose is this element of time. You know, it's a short time after they arrive. Well, what does that mean, after? You know, in the one account it says, you know, that it's clearly after some time is what it says. Sometime after this. Well, I don't know what sometime means. The three and the eight witnesses are going to have their experience in July. And so it is possible that she saw the plates before the three and eight witnesses did, depending on when her experience actually happened. What do you think about that experience, Richard?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

It's pretty incredible. I've often thought about this, though. I've talked about this with you when. When we were. I think when we were at the Whitmer farm. And the idea that. That Mary would have this experience, but that Emma wouldn't have the experience, it was. It was an interesting. It was an interesting thing. Some of the people that end up being witnesses to the gold plates. Now, Emma's obviously a witness to many miraculous things that occur is she's, you know, writing down some of the things that Joseph is even saying as she acts as scribe. But I've often thought that to be interesting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And obviously a trial for Emma. I mean, because one of the things that we would say is, well, of course the three and the eight witnesses were all men, because this is the 19th century, and it's just so gender biased that, you know, the men's legal word carries much more weight in a court of law than a woman's does. And. And certainly there's elements to that. But if you're Emma and Mary Whitmer sees the plates and the angel and you don't, you gotta be thinking like, okay, I mean, I realize that you've had to put out a couple more bowls of Frosted Flakes, but, I mean, I'm, like, having to leave my family over this because I'm supporting him. I was with Joseph in the World Wagon when he went to go get the plates. I've gone through all of this with him. I literally was a scribe for nearly the most part of the lost 116 pages. So why don't I have this experience? Now, we don't ever have Emma saying, I was really upset that I didn't have this experience.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Sure, sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But you do have Doctrine and Covenant, Section 25, which is an 1830 revelation directed to Emma, and it's after the church is founded. So it's not like. It's not something from 1829. And we usually read doctrine, covenant, section 25 primarily to say that the Song of the Righteous is a prayer to God. Right. It's primarily used by music leaders to try to strong arm us into being in the ward choir, I think. Is that. Is that normally why we have.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

My experience? Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I mean, as a. As a choir leader in a ward, though, I mean, it really is great that you've got, like, a revelation on your side, like, oh, interesting. So you would want the Song of the Righteous to be a prayer to God.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

That's a tough job, man. That is a tough, tough gig to be the. The choir leader in a ward. I have to say, part of the problem, though, is they don't want me in the choir. I am confident of that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, they Say they want everyone, but I'm this.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

I'm the. I'm the seagull from Little Mermaid.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

When. Fact. In fact, when I was in Garrett's ward, when we were in the same student ward at Utah State, I. I, you know, joined the. The choir of the young married ward, and I. I had somebody that was next to me hearing me sing, inviting me to no longer attend.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It. It. It really is something that should have sent you on a downward spiral to where you no longer had a testimony.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Well, but the thing is, though, I. I knew he spoke the truth, and. And I. I accept. I accepted it. I'm a terrible singer.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It is. It is funny. You know, they'll say things like, no, everyone's welcome. And then you're sitting there thinking, no, not everyone's not welcome. Like, if I stand there just to make it look like you have more numbers. But that's not. Yeah, well, it is a tough job. Although our friend Lisa, like, she is in a ward with a whole bunch of, you know, she lives up in. In Provo. And so in her ward, she ends up having all of these, like, BYU professors of, like, music and. You know what I mean? So they'll do, like, musical numbers, and it sounds like it's, you know, you're in. You're at. On Broadway.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

The best. The best sacrament Christmas program I've ever been to in my life. We were in New York City, and we went to church in New York, and we had all these, like, Juilliard students. It was incredible. Best SAC Christmas program in the history of Christmas programs.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Whenever you. Whenever you hear someone who has just such a beautiful voice or is. Is just, you know, playing the violin in a way that, like, you can't even comprehend how beautiful it is. Right.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I love music, and I love the arts. I. You know, and so whenever, like, there's always a little bit that creeps in when I'm listening to that, and I'm like, I feel like God didn't even try on me. I feel like he was like, and I have created the perfect person here, and I'm going to take whatever blobs I have left and just slap it together. There's a Garrett that you feel like other people are just incredibly talented. Obviously, they've worked forever to create those talents. But I'm pretty sure that if I did put the 10,000 hours in, I would probably still have the guy saying, yeah, we don't. We don't really need you in the choir. We're full. We're full. There's no other men in the choir. Yep, that's. That's very interesting how we're full. So back to Doctrine, Section 25. The part that I want to focus on is this early part. And while we don't have what Emma was saying, we don't have an account of that, we don't have an early journal from Emma. Hearken unto the voice of the Lord your God, while I speak unto you, Emma Smith, my daughter. For verily I say unto you, all those who receive my gospel are sons and daughters of my kingdom. A revelation I give unto you concerning my will. And if thou art faithful and walk in the paths of virtue before me, I will preserve thy life, and thou shalt receive an inheritance in Zion. Behold, thy sins are forgiven thee. So she gets this wonderful statement that Joseph had gotten when the Lord spoke to him first. Thy sins are forgiven thee, and thou art an elect lady whom I have called. But verse four is where I want to focus, murmur. Not because of the things which thou hast not seen, for they are withheld from thee and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come. I can only imagine that after the three and the eight witnesses, and apparently even Mary having this angelic experience. So not only are they seeing the plates, the three witnesses, they're seeing the angel, the other two substantial scribes for Joseph. I mean, you know, Reuben Hale writes for a little bit, and there are some other people, but Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and Emma Smith are the substantial scribes for the Book of Mormon translation. And Martin Harris, the. The fickle Paige, losing. Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery both get to see the angel and get to see the plates, and Emma doesn't. Now, that doesn't mean Emma doesn't have a physical witness of the plates. She talks about feeling the plates through the cloth, feeling the edges of the plates through the cloth. You know, the plates were on the table there right out. You know, but she never saw them. And it's very interesting that what you assume is that the Lord is responding to something that possibly is in her mind, and maybe she's actually said it. Think of just how hard that would be. All of these people that are seeing the plates, including Mary Whitmer, but. But you don't get to see them. I was with Joseph from the beginning. I was with Joseph when. When Martin Harris was off throw, throwing pages to the wind. That's unfair to Martin Harris. But still, Martin Harris broke his covenant. I didn't break mine. I was with Joseph from the beginning. And at this point where we're at, in. In July of 1830, Joseph's already had a huge problem with Oliver Cowdery because Oliver Cowdery has challenged Joseph on Section 20, claiming that Joseph Smith was introducing false doctrine by that revelation. So I could easily see how, if you were Emma and you see the. I don't know what's the best way to say it, the instability of people like Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery, these guys who, yeah, they've done a lot, but they also have turned on you at various times. Why do they get to see angels and I don't? Why do they get to see the plates and I don't? We occasionally get emails from listeners who say things like, I just really wish I could have an angelic experience. You know, I've really prayed to see a departed loved one, or if I were to witness a miracle. I've always wanted to be a part of a miracle. Why do you think there aren't as many miracles anymore? You're asking the same question that Emma Smith was asking July of 1830. And the Lord's response is to not murmur because of what you haven't seen, and then provides this tidbit of wisdom, right, that you haven't seen them because they are withheld from thee and from the world, which is wisdom in me in a time to come. So at some point you'll see the wisdom in the fact that you aren't allowed to see the place. Now, Emma, throughout the rest of her life, will, you know, she will give occasional interviews, especially when it's her son asking the questions. She'll write letters to other people. We have a letter that she wrote surrounding the translation of the Book of Mormon to one of her friends. And we have the interview that she gives to her son where she talks about the translation of the Book of Mormon. And what's fascinating is, even though the entire point of what she writes and what she says and what she does is to prove that Joseph Smith was really a prophet, if this is all just made up, if Emma, well knows that Joseph wasn't really a prophet, but she's just trying to trick people into thinking that he was, why doesn't she just tell people that she saw the plates? I mean, it's the 1860s and 70s by this point. There are multiple descriptions of the plates. She knows what people say they look like. Why couldn't she just say, you know what I saw? Oh, you really think your husband had plates? Yeah, I saw them. That would be A much easier way to settle an argument. Instead, what does Emma say? You know, I lifted them. I felt them through a cloth. They sat there on the table. I know that they physically existed, but I never saw them. And while you're wondering, well, why would that matter? Because what it goes to for historians is a demonstration of the truthfulness of what Emma is saying. There is no reason for her to not say that she saw the plates. There just isn't. It would be a far more persuasive thing. If the point is that you're trying to make. My husband really was a prophet, you should stop attacking him. He really saw God. Well, the easiest way to make that point is to just say, I saw the plates, too. And she doesn't make that point because she's being honest. So when she says plates are covered up on the table, I felt them. She's telling the truth. And her witness of feeling and moving and lifting the plates without seeing them actually carries more weight today than it would if she simply said, oh, yeah, I also saw them. Because it demonstrates she's not overstating in order to try to make her point. It demonstrates that even years later, even with no one to call her on it, she's being honest about that experience. Does that make sense why that would matter or come into play?

[Professor Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, it is kind of interesting. It would be the easiest thing in the world for her to just. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So. So why doesn't she do that? I'm guessing because she. She is being honest, not guessing. But I mean, if as a historian, that's what they would say, well, it doesn't make sense for her otherwise. So before we end, I want to talk about one other person who saw the plates that we. We generally don't talk about, and this is Josiah Stoll. Josiah Stowell is familiar to many Latter Day Saints because he is the person who had got it in his mind that there was an old Spanish silver mine somewhere in Pennsylvania, in northern Pennsylvania, well known as the Spanish silver mine hotbed where the Spanish never were and so therefore clearly had a mine that they had been working. Josiah Stowell is someone who believes Joseph Smith's claims. And he will later actually say that he was the first person that took the plates out of Joseph's hands the morning he brought them in. Joseph is handing them through the window. And Josiah stole. Is saying that he's the one who took them from him. He's actually. His testimony is part of a trial where people are trying to convict Joseph of fraud. And Josiah Sowell says that not only did he lift the plates, he says that as the plates are passing through them, through the window, the covering, the cloth that's over them kind of gets knocked off. And so there he is staring at a portion of the plates. So it's not just that he lists them, he actually sees part of them because the cloth isn't on them. And Stowell is telling the court that they're plates that were leaves of gold with characters written on each sheet. So here's another person who had a witness of the plates who isn't one of the three or eight witnesses. His is a firsthand account, except the source, whereby people are saying that he said what he said is many years later. Like, I don't have the original court transcript, but it is at least reputed to be him saying that he saw the plates. On our next episode, I want to talk about someone else who had a powerful spiritual experience that involving the plates and the angel that we generally don't talk about, but for whom we have several references to this powerful experience having taken place. But if you want to find out who that is, you're gonna have to tune in next week. And, you know, isn't that. How's that for a, you know, oh.

[Professor Richard Leduc]

What a, What a tease.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it actually could be you. I mean, for all we know, I'm about to say. And then Richard saw the plates. Um, maybe that's part of what his dissertation defense actually is. You go in, you don't even defend. They just show you gold plates and you come back out. That's. That's what it really is. But I think it's important to, you know, we'll, we'll talk about this again next week. But it's important to realize the power of these spiritual experiences. It is easy to ask the question of, well, why didn't more people see the plates? If there had been five more people that had seen the plates, would that make anti Mormons suddenly think the plates existed or that they were from God? Frankly, if dozens more people had seen them, would that make people believe that they were from God? In many ways, it goes back to what we've quoted oftentimes here on this podcast. But it bears repeating from Doctrine and Covenant, Section 5, when Martin Harris, also threatened with a fraud, charged over his support of the Book of Mormon, when he comes down to see the plates in March of 1829, the Lord tells him very quickly, very clearly, verse seven of doctrine covenant, section five, behold, if they will not believe My words, they would not believe you, my servant Joseph, if it were possible that you should show them all these things which I have committed to you. The people who refuse to accept the testimony of the witnesses are not just one more witness away from saying, you know what, actually he did have plates. Because the reason why they don't believe the witnesses isn't because there isn't already 11 witnesses. It isn't like, oh my goodness, if there were 13. Now I'm ready to be baptized. Or in most of their cases, re baptized. Right? The people who are rejecting these witnesses are not doing it because there's just not enough of them. Because these are the same people who are more than willing to believe the most outlandish statements about Joseph Smith with barely a single 50 years removed fourth hand witness to whatever the person's claiming. Boy, that is testimony you can take to the bank as far as they're concerned. So it's not about the number of the witnesses, it's about the fact that if they won't believe the words of Christ, then they're not going to believe them, even if they have visions and even if they have miracles. The great example of we have examples of shared collective witness events where more people are involved. Take for example the experience of Jesus and the Father appearing to the men in the school of the prophets. We have a contemporary source of that. We have Frederick G. Williams taking minutes of that meeting, saying that many of the brethren present had a vision of Savior. Does that convince those people that this church is God's church? Do they suddenly say, oh, I guess I was wrong about everything I said about, you know, how tithing funds are spent and this really is the church of Jesus. I mean, they don't. And so while the witnesses are powerful, they're especially powerful to me. I think it's a mistake to believe, and we've said this before, that if only I had a certain witness, then I would believe and I would never fall away. We've just talked about people like Oliver and David and Martin. They had powerful witnesses. They saw angels, they saw plates, and they apostatized. And in our next episode, we're going to talk about someone else who had a powerful experience, saw the angel, saw the plates, and what becomes of them. So thank you so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com until next time.