S4E49 Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 2

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast Summary: S4E49 "Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 2"

Introduction

In Episode 49 of Season 4, titled "Additional Witnesses of the Gold Plates Part 2," Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve deeper into the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS Church). This episode explores the testimonies of additional witnesses of the gold plates, their experiences, and the ramifications of their apostasy. Hosted by Dr. Dirkmaat, an associate professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU, alongside his colleague Dr. Leduc, the podcast aims to enlighten Latter-Day Saints about their heritage while reinforcing their faith.

Personal Anecdotes and Mailbag Interaction

The episode begins with light-hearted banter between Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc about personal academic challenges and graduation plans. This segment, though seemingly peripheral, sets a relatable tone for listeners familiar with academic pressures.

At [04:06], Dr. Leduc introduces the "mailbag" segment, where listener emails are addressed. One notable email from Matt stands out due to its emotional depth and personal struggle with faith amidst family upheaval and divorce. Matt shares how the podcast provided solace during his separation, highlighting its impact:

"Your podcast provides that especially the betting lines for games that already occurred." [16:00]

Exploring Lyman Johnson and John Boynton

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Lyman Johnson and John Boynton, two early members who served as witnesses to the gold plates. Their testimonies are scrutinized, especially considering their eventual apostasy.

Dr. Leduc recounts historical accounts detailing their initial fervor and subsequent departure from the church:

"Lyman Johnson has left father, mother, brothers and sisters... to declare the will of God... he knows these things to be true." [13:00]

However, their journey takes a tragic turn as both men become excommunicated. The discussion highlights the reasons behind their excommunication, emphasizing accusations of gossiping against church leadership, financial misdeeds, and personal conflicts. Dr. Dirkmaat references specific charges against Johnson:

"For seeking to injure the character of Joseph Smith Jr... for telling falsehoods... for taking whiskey and making Weldon drunk." [39:08]

Despite their excommunication, historical records show that both men maintained connections with the church. Dr. Dirkmaat shares an emotional reflection on Joseph Smith's attempts to reconcile with them:

"Joseph Smith is so desperate to forgive people... it's impressive enough that Wilford Woodruff will write to his... bringing him back to Nauvoo and rejoicing over the fact I have my friends around me again." [41:02]

Brigham Young's perspective on their apostasy is also examined, revealing a mixture of frustration and theological explanations:

"You walk on slippery ground... living next to them in Iowa and in Nauvoo." [55:44]

Implications of Their Apostasy

The heart of the episode analyzes the paradox of witnessing miraculous events yet abandoning faith. Dr. Leduc delves into the psychological and spiritual dimensions that might lead such individuals to renounce their testimonies.

"When light in us becomes darkness, how great is that darkness. The apostle says that if the light within you has become darkness, how great it is." [16:00]

The hosts discuss how these apostates challenge the credibility of their initial testimonies. The conversation emphasizes the importance of personal revelation and the dangers of over-reliance on external proof:

"The whole point of religion is the miraculous power of God that we believe because of those miracles." [23:41]

Dr. Dirkmaat underscores the significance of maintaining faith even when confronted with doubts, advocating for reliance on spiritual guidance rather than purely logical reasoning.

"Trust and believe... God has promised that your faithfulness, your willingness to follow even into the darkness will turn for our good." [26:23]

Conclusion

The episode concludes with a poignant reminder of the fragility of faith and the necessity of steadfastness in belief. Dr. Leduc and Dr. Dirkmaat encourage listeners to draw lessons from the experiences of Lyman Johnson and John Boynton, emphasizing resilience and trust in divine guidance.

"Don't allow yourself to become angry at the prophet, the church, the leadership... because in the end, desperately trying to hang on to the things of this world doesn't really bring happiness anyway." [44:14]

They also reflect on the enduring nature of testimonies amidst personal trials, urging listeners to find strength in their faith and community.

Notable Quotes

• Dr. Leduc at [01:27]:

  "I think that that takes a lot of, I mean I, that suggests that I do well in the dissertation defense."

• Dr. Dirkmaat at [17:19]:

  "I just have to say that that proves that Joseph made it up."

• Dr. Leduc at [22:42]:

  "He was a man that was visited with revelation... he couldn't even tell for the life of him whether he'd had that vision."

• Dr. Dirkmaat at [26:02]:

  "When all you're doing is trying to reason your way to truth instead of looking to revelation and following the prophet, that would be like walking over Niagara Falls naked on a tightrope."

Key Takeaways

1. Complexity of Faith: The testimonies of witnesses like Lyman Johnson and John Boynton illustrate the intricate relationship between personal revelation and sustained faith.

2. Impact of Apostasy: Their departures from the church despite initial powerful experiences highlight the vulnerabilities within religious adherence and the factors that can lead to doubt.

3. Importance of Revelation: The discussion underscores the necessity of spiritual experiences and personal revelations in maintaining faith, as opposed to relying solely on external evidence or logical reasoning.

4. Community Support: The emotional and psychological support provided by faith communities, as exemplified by Matt's email, plays a crucial role in individual faith journeys.

5. Historical Context: Understanding the historical nuances and personal stories within early LDS Church history provides deeper insights into present-day beliefs and challenges.

6. Endurance of Testimonies: The episode reinforces the enduring nature of faith-based testimonies, encouraging listeners to remain steadfast despite personal and communal trials.

Final Reflections

Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc adeptly navigate the delicate balance between historical analysis and personal faith, providing listeners with both intellectual and spiritual nourishment. By examining the lives of additional witnesses of the gold plates, the podcast not only honors their testimonies but also offers valuable lessons on maintaining faith amidst adversity. This episode serves as a compelling exploration of early LDS Church history, the complexities of personal belief, and the enduring strength of community and revelation in sustaining faith.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Professor Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. That's right, we're still around. I know you thought Thanksgiving was going to kill us off and it came close, but we're still here. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend. By the time you hear this, only hours away from Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, hello Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I think that that takes a lot of, I mean I, that suggests that I do well in the dissertation defense. Maybe that's the best, better way to say it, that it only. Only days or hours away from actually my, what I assume is one of seven attempts at a dissertation defense.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I like the fact that, you know, you have to act in faith. And so Richard didn't just plan for his defense, he planned for his defense. He then planned a celebratory trip to Nashville and then to come back for his graduation walk later in the same week. Is that about right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's about right. After a discussion with my wife, we've decided to forego the celebratory trip and possibly just focus on, I think one step in front of the other, one foot in front of the other. And I think, I think we're just going to do the graduation if in fact I get approved.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, you're no longer going to go. Go live it up at the Grand Ole Opry?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We, we are not, we're no longer going to do that. I'm, I'm heartbroken by it. I bought a big old hat to be able to wear with a big belt buckle that I borrowed from my brother in law because I'd never won any belt buckles. It's, it's extraordinary. I can't sit down in it. It's too large.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it cuts right into your stomach.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Would you sit down right into my. Yeah, right into my ever expanding stomach. But, yeah, so we, plans have changed, but graduation is the same week as the defense and so yeah, I'm going to defend and then, then hoping that, you know, that it happens. But, but I did miss certain deadlines and so technically, I won't technically graduate until the spring it appears, but I might be able to walk. There's A lot of uncertainty, Garrett.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. It sounds a lot like the dissertation itself. Like you're not really sure what's going on. You're waiting to see if that referral comes back. Are you graduating? We don't know. Are you enrolled in the school? No idea. I think that. I feel like it's more like you majored in political science than you majored in business.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, I'm thinking about hiring a press secretary. Next time I'm on here, I'm going to just have my press secretary answer any questions relating to anything related.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. So I'm like, hey, sort. You going to defend. Like, you know, we're not going to talk about defense right now. We're just going to. We're looking forward, we're not looking backward. Yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. No attack ever fed a hungry child, Garrett. And that's what we're. We're in the business of focusing on here, so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Very nice. Well, what do we have in our mailbag?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, Garrett. In. In our mailbag here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Notice how I carefully and calculatedly did not talk about how disappointed I am that BYU is not playing in the Big 12 title game.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's a bummer. I actually am in Arizona right now, so it's. Everyone's got Sun Devil fever. Just kidding. No one cares. I'm sure. I'm sure people do at Arizona State, but no one. No one that I've talked to or met.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, when you see Elder Dirkma and Elder Roman and now there's 10 yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm to dinner tomorrow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It is funny how checked out they are. I talked to my son on the phone for Thanksgiving and. And he was like, he didn't even know that BYU had played at Arizona State, let alone lost.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I know what he needs to get his priorities straight. This. This email comes to us from Dan. I just thought of. Hey, I just thought of this. I don't know if it's already been said on the podcast, but litners of the Standard of Truth podcast should be called Softies. I'm sure you understand how I came up with this, but I will explain for Richard's sake. Well, that's. That's very nice. It's the. It's the. It's the Michael Scott when he got roasted. Boy, you really went after my intelligence there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So until you have that doctor in front of your name, they're just gonna keep coming for you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that was the. That was the funny thing. I was. I was joking with you before the show. Like, I don't even have it yet. And this company reached out to me and wants me to come out to the Philippines for a week to do some consulting. I'm like, Geez, what a PhD? It's pretty valuable.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Unless you get one in history, then it's worthless. So the one ever needs you to consult. No one ever needs you to consult.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They're not flying you out first class to Manila to spend a week.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They don't need you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. Okay. So the S is for standard. Of is for of. T is for truth. That spells, you know, it spells soft. So nationally, we, the Littners should be called softies, with the Y standing for byu. Go Cougs.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. Well, I. Well, I agree with that. We. We've just lost a bunch of Aggies, and you fans, they just. They just abandoned the podcast because of that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But our Boise State fans are so strong as they have a shot to beat UNOB and go to the playoff. It is funny, actually. So we're. I just got back, like, I just got back a couple of hours ago actually, from, from our trip to South America, the temple trip. And we're going to spend some time, I think, in our. In next week's episode, talking about that. We're, we're collecting information and some in quotes and, and meeting with President Ruggero Garrett. You had an opportunity to meet with him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He's a lovely, amazing man.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Just the best, best possible guy. His wife's even better, if that's possible. And so anyway, so we wanted to kind of turn it into a full production, and so we needed a little bit more time than the hour that I have to kind of put that together. But.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And also, you know, my Spanish is far worse than your Spanish.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My Spanish is terrible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And my Spanish is, you know, like Dora the Explorer would be like, that's not very good Spanish. That's where we're at. Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So anyway, so we'll have something that'll be really fun. Well, funds relative term. But it'll be, It'll be. We hope that you enjoy that. And that'll be. That'll be next week. But as. As we were coming back, we. We stopped off in Brazil for a day or two, and we were going through. Going through immigration, going through customs in Sao Paulo, and we were. There were some issues with the flight, and we were kind of hurried and. And the customs agent was trying to scan my passport, and it wasn't working. And so my daughter was with me and my son Parker, and so she keeps swiping and it's not working. And as bad as my Spanish is. My Portuguese is worse. And so I just said, it's me. Hi, I'm the problem. It's me. And then my daughter started to sing the Taylor Swift song, because I think Softies is a tip of the cap of Swifties. Yeah. And so she starts. Lily starts singing it, and the customs agent is in her mid-20s, and so she starts singing it and, like, dancing to it, to the Taylor Swift song, and then just stamps my passport and sends us on our way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you didn't. You didn't legally enter the country. It's just like, look, it won't scan, but if you know Taylor Swift, you're probably okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So usually customs agents are just stone cold. Unless you are in France and you say you're going to the uk you fly into Charles de Gaulle from Salt Lake, and it's like, where are you headed? How long are you in France? Well, I'm just in France for the day. I'm. I'm flying to England tomorrow. Why would you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why would you want to go to England? No.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this has happened to me three times, where the customs agent in France says, why would you waste a perfectly good vacation by going to England? Which is hilarious and is the most French thing you can say anyway. But, yeah. So she started, like, dancing and singing Taylor Swift with my daughter and then just stamps it and sends us.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's good to know if we ever need to get ourselves into Brazil. Yeah. When. Whenever I go to the Netherlands, the customs official is very disappointed in me.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because he sees my first and last name.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I get that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

First of all, the only person on Earth who will ever pronounce my name correctly. First and last.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

More correctly than you pronounce.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Far more than I do. And then when they see, they're like, you know, their reaction is. I was like, so why'd you leave? What are you doing? And I fit in. If you go to the Netherlands, a lot of people look like me.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. I remember the first. The first time I went there, I texted you, hey, Garrett, I'm in an airport full of you and your sons. Hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They all look like Kai.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They all look like Kai. They're all six, seven, blonde. Anyway, so that's. That's very funny, Dan.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I like that. Dan. We're gonna have to try to work softies in there. We'll find out. Because whether or not Rocky does a meme to it, then we'll find out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, Elder, we got an email from Elder Pitts, who's in The Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. We. I. How many missionaries do they have in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so that. Look, I know you're. My son's in Peru, your son's in Tucson. But Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania has to be our favorite mission, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're killing it. They're killing it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So he says, hey, I'm Elder Pitts and just got out to the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission. It's almost like they've got. It's like they read lock your heart and then they, then they get a link to our website or to the Google Drive to email us. I guess that's. That's how they're introduced. I have a few questions for. For you guys, so I'm going to shoot them off. Number one, am I able to join the podcast folder? My trainer showed me you guys, and I absolutely love you guys. Number two, how many books of Mormon do I need to throw into a house like Joseph Smith Sr's dad to convert someone?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Believe it was the uncle. It was the uncle that threw Age of reason into the house because they were considering going to church. That was how the family felt about church. So. Yeah, look, if you're going to try to just convert people by throwing books of Mormon in their house, it's a lot, I'll tell you that. If Pennsylvania is anything like Wisconsin, it is many books. I suppose the world itself cannot contain them all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's just chucking in like full cases of soft cover copies of the book.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You wing enough people, maybe they accidentally read it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Number three, this is for Garrett. How bad is the Pittsburgh Second Ward? I've heard it doesn't live up to the hype.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's funny. Well, you tell us. You're the only one who knows.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it's true. And. But the hype is, is that they were a ward in the 1700s.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They were the first ward of the church. The church organized there and then went to Fayette.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, so we've got an upcoming tour and the Kirtland Palmyra tour is full. Right. We still have a couple spots available in the Nauvoo Missouri tour, but I would love to work in to where. Part of the tour is to drive by the Pittsburgh Second Ward building.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Just go by and take a picture.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is the first. Yeah, I would love that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Some of you have heard the church was organized in Fayette, but we know better. The secret is that it was actually organized here. The Second Ward. Why did they start with second? No.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That was always my favorite part of that. The first. The first word Is the second word. That's hilarious.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The first words got to feel like, you know, you're really stealing some of our vibes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, seriously. All right, then. This is for Richard. What game do you watch during the podcast? We got banned from Facebook, so I can't update myself on byu. Elder Pitts.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, that's the reason why you got banned from Facebook, Elder Pittsburgh. You were using Facebook to check BYU football scores. No wonder it got bad. I think you cost the whole mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so first of all, I'm not recording this on a game day. You know, now it's. It's championship week. Maxion has concluded that Maxion is for the degenerate gamblers that need gambling on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. So. But I will tell you, the best value I see is. Is Western Kentucky, Jacksonville State. The line has moved the most of any of the championship games, but really thrilling. Western Kentucky, Jacksonville State. I think big things take the Jacksonville State, whatever their mascot is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Aren't they like Panthers or something?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Probably they're a brand new to, you know, the division, the playoff division. So I. I'm not as familiar with their. With their mascot. I'm going to get to the bottom of it. But anyway, very nice. Thank you very much. That's very nice. Now, the next email is a little bit more sober, Garrett, but it's. It's a very nice email and I will dig into it. Here it comes to us from Matt. I'm about a decade older than both of you. I love your banter. It reminds me of the banter that I have and have had with my friends. Although the language is a little more colorful, I believe.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think our language is more colorful.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, I think.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. With him and his friends, if it's more colorful, we have to check a certain box on explicit, and then that limits the reach. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But eventually, when we do Missouri for real, we'll.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're going to have to. Right. Like, if you read the H. Smith.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Advert, it's going to be in the premium content.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Maybe it's. Boy, yeah, that is. It is aggressive. Anyway, I believe I've. I've been listening for at least two years. A friend and I were comparing podcasts and he sent me on to you. It was a blessing. Let me explain why. March 2021, my wife left the church. My oldest daughter had already left, pulled by the world. My next oldest daughter was struggling with her faith, and mom fueled the fire of doubt, and she stopped going. My youngest daughter also stopped going. My son, third of four kids. Is still going to church for now. We ended getting we ended up getting a divorce and that started in 2022 and was finalized in 2024. I would walk my dog and listen to your podcast often and get caught up on previous episodes. During the separation I didn't have a crisis of faith, but it wasn't easy as I imagined that it wasn't easy. I needed and still need to have positive thoughts and insights. Your podcast provide provides that especially the betting lines for games that already occurred. Well, hey, in this, in this podcast, by the way, Matt, the, the Western Kentucky, Jacksonville State, you know that's that's for free and that's before the game. So. So there you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

By the way. Gamecocks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Of course. Of course it is. South Carolina a way to cover last week against Clemson. Nice work.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Impressive.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I really liked your podcast on why we are not viewed as Christian. On TikTok there's an Orthodox priest roots of Orthodoxy that explains why we are not viewed as Christians. It was so cool because it was exactly what you taught in one of your podcasts and the priest was right from his perspective and teaching. There were several reasons why my ex wife left the church. She got into the CES letter another church history doubt that is out there. She felt like she had been lied to her whole life. And Garrett, that's one of the things you point out a lot right. Is the is the gotcha Mormonism that as you as you claim it's not really the thing as much it is feeling like you didn't know about the thing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. And that's the narrative that's deliberately developed too. Right. So it's not just a happenstance that someone feels like oh I should have known this and I didn't know. The person presenting the information is saying the reason why you don't know is because you're being lied to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. I was a little surprised that she didn't know some of what was throwing her off. I didn't really try to convince her otherwise. Our relationship was already bad and me trying to convince her to stay was not going to work. Although she thought if I left the church it would help our relationship. It wouldn't have A good topic you might want to have is how people receive revelation. She brought up how Joseph Smith was in a room full of people when the angel Moroni came to him. Why didn't others see him? I think there is plenty of precedent on people receiving spiritual witness while those around them do not. I do not have. I know I have had spiritual Experiences while those around me did not and vice versa. Probably happens every week in church. However, seeing a heavenly being may be different at times. I have some sympathy for those who leave because of church history. I think they have been taught a restoration that was supposed to be perfect. If part is not perfect, then none of it is perfect. That is what antagonists focus on. Personally, I think most people do their best. We are all flawed. For a while I think the church tried to make the restoration this perfect event. It wasn't. It was a struggle. It was brutal. I'm amazed it survived and is where it is today. I love how much the church puts out there for people to read and decide on their own better context. I'm rambling, trying to make the email long so you lose interest and figure out the best spreads for the bowl. For the bowl games.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, he already. You already. You led with your stone cold lead pipe.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. The Jacksonville State Gamecocks to cover it. One and a half.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All right, what's your. What's your. What's your idea on Texas? Georgia? Texas, 2 1/2 point favorite.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I gotta tell you, like, I know that, that the line has been moving for. Well, friends. Friends of mine who are degenerates are telling me this because I, I obviously been too busy just immersed in the temple and the scriptures. Yeah. But I, I feel like Georgia's gonna win this game. Like, I know Texas is. Is really good and they played really well all year, but I mean, Georgia is Georgia.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Do you think it makes any difference that the game's basically a home game for Georgia?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is it in, Is it in Atlanta?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're playing it in Atlanta.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, it's not like, I mean, Athens is what, an hour away? It's close though.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's. Yeah, it's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's like when BYU played a home or it was the home team in New Orleans against LSU when they were.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Remember. I remember that was. It was a neutral. It was a neutral site game, but it was. It was. Yeah. In New Orleans.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Do you remember, by the way. So this was. This was had to been like 20 plus years ago. There was a. There was during the NCAA basketball tournament. It was the first round game and the team got beat by Duke by like a hundred and the. And the guy had a bit of a. Like a Kennedy, Massachusetts accent and he says, you know, Duke is Duke. They're on TV more than Leave it to Beaver run.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Remember that? I do remember that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's how I feel about Georgia. Like Georgia's Georgia. They're on TV more. Then leave it to viva reruns. I don't think that Texas is going to beat him. I just don't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But. All right, well, there's a lot of angry Hook em Horns fans right now listening. Please don't unsubscribe from the podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I want, I want Texas to win. One of my dearest friends is a huge Texas fan and he, you know, he wants.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And plus, you know, Sarcasian. I mean, we got a little BYU connection.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, you know, go Sark. But anyway, I, I got distracted with football and I gotta go back to this sober email. I'm not doing well at this. This is. I'm very sorry, Matt, but you knew what we were when you picked us up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we are the snake you shouldn't have carried down the mountain.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Which one do you like better, the snake or the scorpion? I've heard both. Which animal do you think is the best representation of a liar?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I don't know, but I know the story of the Garden of Eden, so.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Scorpion it is. What I've learned and where I am now is that when life gets really hard, the gospel gets really simple. My goal is to make it to the next sacrament meeting, next temple session, next prayer, next scripture study. I'm not too focused on the eternity. I think how you teach this gospel is one of a promising afterlife. I think I believe that. However, I just care about showing God that I believe in him now, today. What happens later is up to him. You two changed lives. I know you do based on the emails you read. We were all on different journeys with a kind, loving God who is there when we need Him. His timing. Grateful for your message. God bless you and your families, Matt.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He also had a PS that he added there. Oh, I can really be sarcastic, but I couldn't make it work with this message. Well, don't worry, we made it work for you. Just first of all, Matt, a couple things going on there. One, thank you so much for your faithfulness in what must be a horrible circumstance. And I. I can't imagine how difficult things have been. And I think there's a lot of people listening who share your same view that it's. I'm just going to make it to the next sacrament meeting and sometimes that's all we can do until we get to a point where we feel like our life is coming back into focus. And I love your attitude, I love your faith when it comes to things like, you know, how is it possible that the angel Moroni could have appeared in Joseph Smith's room, and only Joseph Smith saw. I mean, I think at that point, when someone's making those kinds of claims, when they're talking about angels and God, they've stopped considering what exactly angels and God are. I mean, because it would be entirely impossible for there to be anything in recorded scripture in which part of the people that were part of a spiritual experience didn't see or hear something. Why, if we go to Acts, chapter nine, when in the Bible that, you know, a Bible, a Bible, we've got a Bible. When Paul has his experience on the road to Damascus, and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven, and he fell to earth and heard a voice saying unto him, saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he, trembling and astonished, said, lord, what would you have me do? And the Lord said unto him, arise and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what you must do. And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no man. So Paul saw it, though, Right? So obviously it didn't really happen. Paul's obviously a liar. And all of Christianity has been made up because the people standing with Paul didn't see the Lord, even though Paul saw the Lord.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thank you for joining us on the Standard of Truth podcast. We'll see you next week.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, right. And scene. I mean, the much better question. Not that you'd be in a debate about this with your ex wife or anyone else, but when someone asks a question like that, look at how far they're straining. Look at how far they're trying to go to make the argument. Well, Joseph Smith must have been lying about seeing an angel, because if an angel appeared in his room and talked to him, it would have woke up his brothers, who must have been in the same room, even though I have absolutely no idea where they were sleeping, because we have no record of that at all. But I'm certain that they must have been in the same room. And because I'm certain without any record, I'm going to say that that proves that Joseph made it up. Now that's the argument that they're making. Oh, it couldn't have happened, because if it did, you know, Hyrum would have been like, Joseph, who you talking to? And then, you know, that the whole thing would have devolved a much better question than why didn't some people see this part of the vision and other people did is how do you explain the shared visions when people did see the angel? Okay, so Joseph Smith is lying about it. He's just making it up. Okay, all right, so what about the three witnesses who all saw an angel with Joseph at the same time? Well, they're, they're also lying. Okay, what about all the people who saw the Lord in the school, the prophets, all at the same time and Oliver Cowdery in the temple and multiple other manifestations? Getting caught up in the weeds about what would or would not happen in the temporal world when it comes to supernatural things is a preposterous, preposterous argument. I don't know why it is that Joseph's brothers didn't wake up as the angel spoke to him, but I do know that some of those same brothers are saying that they lifted gold plates and they hefted them and they know for a surety that the said Smith has got them. Are they lying about that? Frankly, when you just say that everyone who disagrees with you is a liar when you say, well, it doesn't make any sense. You're trying to turn religion into math. And the whole point of religion is. It is not math. The whole point of religion is the miraculous power of God that we believe because of those miracles. March 18, 1833 in the the Minute book of the Church in, in the school the prophets meeting, Frederick G. Williams is keeping the minutes and he writes, this is a contemporary document. This is not something written 100 years later. This is not, not a 50 year old reminiscence. This is what he writes as the minutes of the meeting. Several exhortations were given to faithfulness in the obedience of the commandments of God. And much useful instruction was given for the benefit of the saints with a promise that the pure in heart that were present would see a heavenly vision. After remaining a short time in secret prayer, the promise was verified to many having their eyes or their understanding open. So they beheld many things after which many of the brethren saw a heavenly vision of the Savior and concourses of angels and many other things. A better question than why didn't everyone see that angel? Or why didn't everyone see the vision when it was just Joseph and Sidney seeing it while other men stood there? Doctrine and Covenant Section 76 is how do you explain these shared collective visions? But just, just everybody is all lying about it. Everyone's all, you know, taking the, the hallucinogenic mushrooms at the same time, they're all reporting the same experience in fact, arguing about witnesses to miraculous events is legitimately the worst argument that someone can make because it's a miraculous event. And we don't know what it's like to be in a room with Jesus or with an angel. And the crazy part is pretending that we do. You've got to be pretty proud of yourself to say, well, I know that if an angel appeared to me, I would do this. You don't have any idea what you would do if an angel appeared to you. And the fact that you think you do know demonstrates where the humility is lacking, because you don't know. And honestly, that kind of leads into our discussion about other witnesses of the place. The experience of the three witnesses was angelic, miraculous, as well as physical. Right? They see those plates. The plates are being lifted up from a table, they're being put down, back on the table, and they hear the voice of God tell them that the translation of the plates is correct. That is not explainable. Unless you want to say Martin Harris lied about it. Oliver Cowdery lied about it. David Wimmer lied about it. Joseph Smith, of course, lied about it. And not just lied about it, lied about it repeatedly throughout their life. And not only just lied about it. Were so indignant when people tried to claim that they didn't say that they saw it. People like David Whitmer are taking out ads and newspapers condemning the people who dare claim that they didn't actually see an angel and didn't actually see the place. Now, in this discussion about other witnesses, that's where it takes us, is we have a record of another early vision of the plates and the angel. Now, this comes to us from someone who was preached to by the Latter Day Saints, a guy by the name of Benjamin Stokely. So he's at an early preacher meeting in 1832, and the people who come to preach are people, Latter Day Saints, one of them being Lyman Johnson. Now, Lyman Johnson is a spoiler alert. He's eventually going to become one of the original members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. But his family is the Johnson family in Ohio. This is his mother, Elsa, who had a in some way crippled arm, whether it was from rheumatoid arthritis or in some other way, she had an arm that did not function properly. And Joseph Smith healed her arm. And so after that, the Johnsons, they convert to the church. And Luke and Lyman Johnson are eventually going to become original members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And their daughter Marinda will marry Orson Hyde, who will later become The President of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles and she'll also be sealed to Joseph Smith. So there's multiple people there. And the Johnsons are very helpful in providing funds for the early church. So this is only shortly after they would have been converted, a year after they were converted. Lyman Johnson is an amazing missionary and apparently one of the reasons why he's an amazing missionary is the experience that he had. This is what, what Stokely writes. Lyman Johnson has left father, mother, brothers and sisters, the farm and the neighborhood of friends to declare the will of God and the revelation of John, who saw the angel flying through heaven. An angel brought the Mormonite Bible and laid it before him. Lyman Johnson, he therefore knows these things to be true, being sent to call on all to repent. He has come to fulfill the commands of heaven. He has cleared his skirts of our blood. He goes on to say that, you know, they, they seem to be decent folks and stuff like that, but this is an 1832 report from a newspaper of what Lyman Johnson saying and it's actually verified by later statements by, by Brigham Young that in fact Lyman Johnson had this powerful spiritual experience. Now I wish I could tell you that everything worked out great for Lyman Johnson and that he's, you know, yet a member and always was a member. But Lyman Johnson is one of the apostles who is going to apostatize after the the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society. It's a. There's a lot of things going on there. But this is what his excommunication hearing is listed off as the reasons why for his excommunication. The charges are brought up first. Actually Johnson, Luke and Lyman Johnson and John Boynton are initially cut off in 1837 with the Kirtland Safety Society debacle. They speak out very strongly against Joseph and the leadership of the church in part because they lost a ton of money speculating in land through the Kirtland Safety Society. They're brought back into the church, they reconcile for a few months, then head to Missouri and that reconciliation is very short lived. And so there in Far west they are tried again. And this is what they're the charges they're brought up on. First, for persecuting the brethren by stirring up the people to prosecute them and urging on vexatious lawsuits against them and thereby bringing distress upon the innocent. Second, for virtually denying the faith of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints by vindicating the cause of the enemies of the church who are dissenters from us now in Kirtland and speaking reproachfully of the church and the High Council by saying their proceedings were illegal, that he would never acknowledge them to be legal. These assertions were made without foundation of truth. Also treating the church with contempt by absenting himself through meetings on the Sabbath, by not observing his prayers in the season thereof, and by not observing the word of wisdom. The third. For seeking to injure the character of Joseph Smith Jr. By reporting that he had a demand against him of $1,000 when it was without foundation in truth.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Fourth.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

For seeking to lay violent hands on our brother Phineas Young and by kicking and beating him, thereby throwing contempt on the Church of Latter Day Saints in Missouri. Fifth. By saying that he would appeal the suit between him and brother Phineas Young and take it out of the county, saying that he could get no justice done to him, thereby speaking reproachfully of the authority of Caldwell County. 6th. For telling falsehoods. 7th. For taking whiskey and making Weldon drunk and then cheating him out of his property. Now that last point was one in which apparently Lyman Johnson made a very one sided land deal with this guy named Weldon and apparently bragged to someone that he got Weldon. Well, he got him drunk first and then made the one sided deal. I don't know how much I trust that since the person saying that that's what happened is the same person that is probably one of the greatest liars in all of Latter Day Saint history. And don't worry Richard, I'm not about to say you George Hinkle, the same George Hinkle that gets Joseph Smith arrested outside of Far west in order to be shot. This is only a few months before George Hinkle's apostasy. He's the one who says that when he purchased the farm of Weldon he was aware that Weldon was fond of liquor and he got him tolerably well shaved. Meaning he got him drunk before he did it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So it might not be true, but it's a heck of a strategy. So that that leads me to believe that it likely, you know, there's a shot at it. I mean if it's know that Weldon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Drinks and we know that he sold his property for much less than it was worth.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So there you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There's at least those things. So. So Johnson's going to be excommunicated. Johnson and honestly John Boynton. And John Boynton is my. He's my great great great great great uncle. His sister Olive Boynton marries my great great great grandfather Jonathan Herriman Hale. And so to me, it's always been a point of faith that her brother, John Boynton, is a member of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. He apostatizes, makes all kinds of negative statements against the church and against Joseph Smith in particular. But Olive doesn't. She sends her husband on another mission and she follows the church everywhere that it goes back to Matt's email. I mean, it is a very difficult thing when people we love choose to turn away from the church. And that's why I think I do focus so much on the fact that God is going to make things right. And I don't know how he's going to make things right, but I know that he's going to make things right. The I received a text message actually the other day from a friend of mine who, listening to the podcast, just thought he would drop me a note to let me know that when we were going over the discussion about sealing a few episodes back, that it hit him really hard because he has a family member who's not really active in the church anymore. And so now this is what he said. He said, I'm on a business trip on my flight. I listened to your podcast on Eternal Ceilings. Thanks for making me tear up among strangers. I always tell people the story isn't over. Who knows the detail of our eternal future. And what a great point he made. I don't know how things are going to work out, but I know that God has promised that if we are faithful, they will work out. And how that will be, I don't know. But the reason why I bring this up with Lyman Johnson is I know this is kind of like apostates, apostles and apothecaries. Right? Is that. That we've just gotten into that now because he was both an apostle, now he's an apostate. He doesn't later become a pharmacist, but he's a lawyer. Pretty close.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It will make for a difficult title because this is Additional Witnesses of the Book of Mormon Part 2. But Apostates, Apostles and Apothecaries, Part 3. 3. That's a very long title. I don't know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is the reason why we need the softies. We need all. We need all of this to just be in code name so that we can get through it all. But there's an interesting thing about Lyman Johnson and John Johnson. They don't, like, leave and just move away from the church and never have anything to do with it anymore. In fact, both of them continue to move along with the church. Both of Them will eventually move to outside of Nauvoo. Isn't it kind of a weird thing that they're. I mean, they do have family in the church, but they continue to go. And in Lyman Johnson's case, I don't want to be a. You know, I'm not an apologist for his apostasy, but it's an interesting thing that the way he seems to treat other people that are members of the church is relatively positively most of the time. The. We have a record of Heber C. Kimball when he's getting ready to leave on a mission that, you know, Lyman Johnson's gonna. Gonna hand hand over to him. Let me just read it. Actually, he. This is what. What Heber C. Kimball says. This is this. You can find this in the Journal of discourses, November of 1857. So Lyman Johnson's excommunicated in 1838, and Heber C. Kimball, this is what he says in conference. I will speak to Lyman Johnson's credit, and I will give every man the credit for the good that he does. Lyman Johnson stepped up. Well, so I guess I need to throw my relative under the bustle of it. He's talking about how he was called to go on this mission after all of this apostasy in Kirtland. John Boynton, my great, great, great, great, great uncle, he said to me, if you are such a damned fool as to listen to Joseph Smith, the fallen prophet, and to go to England under these perilous circumstances, if I knew you were shipwrecked on Van Diemen's Land, I would not assist you to get you from that land. How do you really feel, John Boynton? It's hard to believe that he became so angry that he got excommunicated. But Van Diemen's Land is. What is that? Australia? Is that. That's what he's basically making the argument there. And so John Boynton's response to Heber C. Kimmel getting called on this mission, very different than Lyman Johnson. Lyman Johnson stepped up and said, brother Heber, I do not feel so. I'm sorry that you're going, and I consider you to be foolish, but if you're determined to go, I will help you in all that is in my power. And he took from his shoulders a good, nice cloak and he put it onto mine. And that was the first cloak I ever had. This was in the month of June, 1837. And then apparently someone from the audience or from the stand said, he'll be blessed for that, right? I was then destitute of all the comforts of life. And I wore that cloak across the sea three times, and Parley Pratt wore it four times in all. That cloak crossed the sea seven times. It seemed as though it would never wear out. It's such an interesting thing that it seems like Lyman Johnson gave up Mormonism but couldn't fully give it up. And as I said, he's going to move to the area surrounding Nauvoo. In Wilford Woodruff's journal in 1842, he's right. Well, this is actually a letter he's writing to Parley Pratt, June of 1842. In the letter, he says, Lyman Johnson has just come into the office and he is well and in good health. Now, this is a former apostle and an excommunicated one, one who spoke out very strongly against Joseph Smith. And there he is in Nauvoo. Well, why is he in Nauvoo? Well, we have to go to another letter. This is a letter that Wilford Woodruff writes to George Albert Smith, where this is from January of 1841. So shortly after they're there in Nauvoo, he says this. He's writing this letter to George Albert Smith. He says, well, George A. Smith, for it's not the same one who becomes the provost. George A. Smith. He says that the Saints have their steamboat. They've named their steamboat Nauvoo. On the last trip it made, Brother Joseph went up with it, and who should come back with him but John Boynton and Lyman Johnson and John Boynton's wife. They made it their home with Joseph while in Nauvoo, and they have brought tools and are going to build and settle in Nauvoo. And Joseph seemed pleased at having his old friends around him once more. They seem to be building up and prospering there at present time. Joseph says he's going to have all of his old friends around him again. Man, I actually almost started crying when I read that the first time. Joseph Smith is so desperate to forgive people that here are these two guys who led the charge of apostasy. These two men are part of the conspiracy that Warren Parish creates to take over the Kirtland Temple and to become their own church. They have not returned to the church. Neither one of them have repented. Neither one of them have asked to get back into the church. And there's Joseph Smith taking him for the ride on the steamboat, bringing him back to Nauvoo and rejoicing over the fact I have my friends around me again. And Joseph with friends like that, you do not need any enemies. These guys are the cause of the fall of Kirtland. In fact, when they, you know, it's famous that John Boynton, you know, he, in his excommunication hearing says, I thought that God had established the bank and that God would not let it fail. To which Joseph says, whoever told you that? I never said that. And Boynton's like, well, that's what I believe, though. And famously, Lyman Johnson, same thing, said that he would not be dictated to in temporal terms. You're not going to tell me who I can file a lawsuit against. You're not going to tell me what I can have a grievance about. You can't tell me that I can't appeal the conviction for beating up Phineas Young. I won't be dictated to for temporal terms. And well, and yet, even despite that, Joseph Smith is still, is still reaching out to these men. It's impressive enough that Wilford Woodruff will write to his. Well, sorry, Phoebe Woodruff writes, will write to Wilford and say something very similar. That Joseph brought John Boynton and wife and Lyman Johnson and they have purchased lots and they are going to build on them. She said she knew not what their feelings were in regard to Mormonism, but they were very friendly and in good spirits. It demonstrates that Joseph is what he says he is. In The Council of 50 Minutes, Joseph Smith says that when I exerted all of my powers to take someone's mind away from darkness and they refuse it and they still remain in darkness, they would remain every bit as much as my friend if they had embraced it. To Joseph Smith, if someone was willing to be your friend, even if they rejected the gospel, you would be friendly to them in a great example. I mean, we live in this very polarized world where people are telling you that you shouldn't even talk to family members if they don't have the same political viewpoints that you have. Joseph Smith believed if someone is a good person, then you love them every bit as much as if they were members of the church. In John Boynton and Lyman Johnson's case, these are some of the most high profile apostates that exist. And Joseph is excited for them to move to Nauvoo. This isn't W.W. phelps, who's already begged for forgiveness and begged to get back into the church. These two men aren't begging to get back into the church. It's very conceivable that they could then be used as a, as a tool against Joseph. How does Joseph know they're not going to try to take over the Nauvoo Temple. He doesn't know. He just loves them. And because he loves them, when you love people, you open yourself up to being hurt over and over and over again. I want to get to what Brigham Young had to say about the. The experience that Lyman Johnson had. But first, what happened to them? You know, why is it that they weren't ever able to return? Brigham Young made the point Wilford Woodruff recorded in his journal in 1856. They were talking about the original Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And Brigham said that he and Brother Kimball needed a stool in order to reach high enough to tie the shoes of John Boynton, Lyman Johnson, and William McClellan. They were. They're pretty proud of themselves, is what Brigham Young is saying, and that he had to. He had to get a stool just to tie their shoelaces.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's a great visual.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's a great line. Brigham Young is very good at great lines. He is. He is a great line person. He does good at great lines. But in a talk that Brigham gives in 1864 in Ogden, he's going to bring up Lyman Johnson and a conversation, because, look, Johnson is there in Nauvoo. In fact, Johnson is. He's involved in some court cases in Nauvoo. He will eventually be one of the founding fathers of. Of Keokuk, Iowa. He actually builds the first brick house. I want to sing the song when I say that. Brick house. He builds the first brick house in. In Keokuk. And for years, it's like a landmark in Keokuk. So he eventually moves to the other side of the river and practices law. But he is a. He's still very closely associated with the church. Brigham Young's giving this sermon. This is what. What he says. The Lord has blessed the country. He will continue to do so, and he will fight our battles. Remember, this is in 1864, during the midst of the bloodiest year of the American Civil War. So when Brigham Young says, the Lord will fight our battles, that's what he's making a reference to. I did not come here to preach, but I can sum up the whole matter and say, if you wish to be the elect, live your religion. Why did not they who had visions and revelations, we see that they were not of the elect. Why they were not of the elect because they didn't keep the faith. Now, Brigham Young's doctrine of election is very different than Calvin's. Brigham Young's doctrine of election is well if you live the gospel, that makes you elect. Well, that would mean everyone could be elect. Yep, that's exactly what Brigham would say. Yeah, if you live the gospel, you're elect. Why were they not of the elect? Because they did not keep the faith. They could have been of the family if they'd kept the faith, but they rather loved the world and they wandered into darkness and they forgot their vision and they forgot their revelations. How many things slips into a person's mind? I have heard Lyman Johnson say he stayed at my house after they came from England and met with the 12. Lyman said, if I could believe in Mormonism as I once did, I would give my right hand and I would not care one farthing whether it was true or not. I never asked the question of happiness. I would never ask the question. I want happiness and I want the peace and I want the comfort. I want the consolation that was in my bosom when I believed Mormonism and Joseph was a prophet. I was just as happy as any man that ever lived. And since I've given up my religion, I am as miserable as any man can be. He was a man that was visited with revelation. When Joseph came to Ohio to preach to them that believed, he baptized Lyman, and Lyman went forth and prayed for himself. And he asked the Lord to give him the same manifestation and revelation that he gave to Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer concerning the Book of Mormon. And Lyman said that an angel came to him and laid before him the gold plates. And he really thought that. He took up the plates and he handled them and he conversed with the angel and the vision passed away. And he testified that for years, yet when he got into darkness, he could not tell for the life of him whether he'd had that vision. Do you not see that when light in us becomes darkness, how great is that darkness? The apostle says that if the light within you has become darkness, how great it is. That is the reason why men apostatized. We feel to bless you and feel to pray for you continually. I said a few words to you last year and should be comforting. I look upon the saints again and say of a truth with my brethren. Hundreds of things that the Lord wants to reveal to a people, but they cannot receive it. He has an eternity of knowledge, power, and righteousness and glory and honor and eternal lives. And we will try to receive it as best we can. Let us be diligent. I pray the Lord bless you and comfort your heart. And I hope that our visiting has shown you good and Comforted. I bless you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen. What a powerful experience there. So we already know from an early document that Lyman Johnson was telling people he had this experience where the angel appeared to him. And he not only had the three witness experience, he apparently had the eight witness experience where he lifted the plates, he saw them, and talked to the angel, and then when he apostatized, he didn't tell that story very much anymore. It is a profound thing. I'm confronted with it all the time because I do Early Latter Day Saint history. It's a profound thing to wrestle with the fact that here you have these people who have had some of the most miraculous visions that have ever occurred. How is it that they apostatize? Lyman Johnson was so bereft of faith in Joseph Smith after his excommunication and after the Kirtland Safety Society debacle that he. He couldn't even come to terms with the fact that, well, if Joseph Smith's not a prophet, what about the gold plates? Now, Johnson apparently was saying that Joseph was now a fallen. But that's not the only time that Brigham Young says that Lyman Johnson wished that he could still believe. In another sermon that Brigham Young gave, he also made a similar reference where, where he talks about what Lyman Johnson said and did so in 1860. Brigham is again talking about how people apostatize even after they've had really powerful experiences. And, and look, not everyone who apostatizes, you know, had a very powerful testimony to begin with. And I think we get that, that some people are just kind of going through the motions of being a Latter Day Saint. And the next thing you know, they're like, you know what? Maybe I. Maybe I won't pay tithing anymore, and then that's the end, right? But I think when it bothers us is when it's people that we know at some point did have a powerful faith. When you're someone like Lyman Johnson and you saw the plates. The crazy part about that is Lyman Johnson saw and talked to an angel who was holding the gold plates, leafs through the gold plates, lifts the gold plates, he apostatizes and can never bring himself to come back. Luke Johnson, his brother, who apostatizes at the exact same time, member of the quorum of the 12 at the exact same time, Luke Johnson comes back and comes to Utah and becomes the first bishop in Tooele, which he's the only apostle who then becomes bishop in Latter Day Saint history. Because he was an apostle. He. He was excommunicated. He was brought back into the church, and then in Utah, he becomes a bishop. So he could have come back. He still had many family members. Marinda, his sister, was still a member of the church her whole life. He was clearly around the saints, living next to them in Iowa and in Nauvoo. But for whatever reason, he couldn't pull the trigger to humble himself, to come back, to believe. That's why that exchange that he had with Brigham Young, that I desperately want to believe, I know that, you know, there's all kinds of people who say, oh, I'm so much happier since I've left the church. I don't know anyone's personal experience. I will say that in my experience, I always feel like people doth protest too much. If you have to tell me exactly how happy you are because you left the church, my guess is that you're trying to convince yourself or somebody else. Because I don't walk around all day trying to convince people that I'm happy. I'm a member of the church. I just walk around all day happy because I'm a member of the church. And I actually shouldn't have to convince you that I'm happy. You should know by talking to me that I'm happy. And if you want to know why I'm happy, I'm happy because I know the plan that Jesus has for us. I know the truth about who we are and why we're here and where we're going. And that's what brings me happiness. It brings me joy, but it also brings that. That longer lasting undercurrent of happiness. So things go terribly wrong, and they do. I still know who I am. I still know what this earth was created for. I still know who my Savior is. I still know who my Father is. I still know the essential truths that lead to happiness. In this 1860 sermon, Brigham Young brings it up again, talking about these people who apostatize. He says, we have traveled to testify. This is from shorthand notes again, so this is not. It's not prettied up. So it doesn't. It's not going to sound like a journal of discourse. It'll be a lot of missing words. We've traveled and testified and argued and proven from heavenly writ the authenticity of the mission of the Savior and of Joseph Smith, of our own missions. But there is no argument, there is no proof. There is no testimony to an unbeliever. Did you know that? Did you ever realize it? Many of you here will say that they believe the gospel because of sound reason. When truth comes to a person and there is place found in that person for it, it is sound reason, no matter who tells, whether any proof or any argument used to prove this doctrine or for any of the doctrine, it is by the power of revelation. And there is place in people, for it takes root bringing forth fruit and spirit. To them it is reasonable, to them it is proved. That is proof that all man receives by which they do receive and act. It is the spirit of revelation. The reason why it seems reasonable to you is because the spirit is telling you it's reasonable. Though many people are convinced, they are merely convinced in their faith, in their judgment. But if they're not convinced by the spirit of revelation, by and by you will see them convinced that Mormonism is wrong, that it is not true, as sure as there is life and beings. When you hear a man say Mormonism is true mathematically and he doesn't live so as to enjoy the power of a mathematician that taught him, he will fall by and by, and his mathematics will prove to him that Mormonism is a mistake, that he has been mistaken all the time it is so. Do the people wish to know how I understand this and prove it? I say to you, I have frequently said, wait until my words come true to you to know it to be the facts. Whenever a man philosophically believes and embraces and lives according to his philosophy, judgment and perhaps his passion, and is convinced. Yet if he doesn't get convinced by the power of revelation concerning the things of God, by and by, it will all be a dream to him. I gotta tell you, that's one of the most powerful statements of why you have to have a testimony of the Holy Spirit that I've ever heard. If you really have a testimony that solely rests on, well, it's the only thing that makes sense. Well, then what happens when it stops making sense? If you have to have a proof for everything, what happens when you no longer have a proof? Well, it falls apart. He goes on to say that people there have at least heard people say that. When Martin Harris began to falter in his faith. Did you see the angel in the plates? Oh, yes, I saw them. As you see a city through a mountain, on the other side of a mountain, and there you saw the city of Jared and you traced the the streets and came back. You see the city of Enoch? Oh, yes. When I saw him, he said, the angel came and stood before us. As you stand before me, I saw him with my natural eyes. But when he commenced a backslide, though he was a witness of the Book of Mormon. Then it was a dream to him, as are all the revelations that God bestows upon his children when they turn to darkness. I mentioned this morning, the thin cloud, the frothy mist, the fog that distracts the Saints just a little. Men will say it soon passes away, but it becomes thicker and thicker over their minds. And by and by it becomes a dream. I heard Lyman Johnson say that the angel came to him and brought him the plates that Joseph had in his possession. And he took those plates and he handled them. He saw the angel, he. He saw other men. He spoke with the angel and the angel told him. He told me how the angel looked. Did he continue to believe when the cloud came over his mind? All his judgment, a very philosophical feeling, a principle he had and his mathematics. And he turned the other way and proved Mormonism to be an untruth to him. Take care, all ye Latter Day Saints. You walk on slippery ground. He then goes on to say that when all you're doing is trying to reason your way to truth instead of looking to revelation and following the prophet, that it would be like walking over Niagara Falls naked on a tightrope. Walk over the falls to look out over the misty abyss below. The mist is surrounding the Latter Day Saints, and if they're not careful, they will begin to look at the rainbow and they will fall off not conscious. So live, enjoy the spirit of your religion every day. And he goes on to say that Joseph Smith said that truth is scattered over the world. There is not a sect or church or people under the heavens but that have truth. It is for us to gather it together, gather it all in one. Gather the honest in heart in one. The house of Israel among all the honest, among the Gentiles. This is the doctrine we have preached. This is our faith and our belief gathered from the good. Leave the bad. Gather out the light and all the truth and the power of God that you see among the nations and every truth pertaining to government and philosophical truth under the heavens belongs to the Mormons. There's not a truth under heaven or on earth or in hell, but what belongs to the Mormons. Gather at home, ye elders of Israel, and treasure it. Up here we have the truth. So again, kind of a negative in the sense that Johnson doesn't stay faithful, but he certainly is another witness of the plates. He certainly tells all kinds of people about it. And maybe that's a very good warning to all of us. Wherever you're at in your testimony, however wonderfully strong you think Yourself to be the devil is very patient, and he is willing to wait until something else that you are very passionate about goes a direction that you didn't want it to go. Whether it's some kind of family relations, whether it's a teaching of the church, whether it's a local church leader who is just a downright jerk to you, Whatever it is, once there's that crack and that opening, once those mists start to fill around you, you're walking over Niagara Falls on a tightrope and it's pretty hard to stay on that road. I know it's difficult because we don't have all the answers. But if we will commit ourselves to following the living prophet of God, even if we don't know everything, even if there are trouble surrounding us, even if we can't see further than two steps in front of us, God has promised us. He has promised that our faithfulness, our willingness to follow even into the darkness will turn for our good. I don't know what the eventual end of Lyman Johnson will be, but like all people, I hope that I sit down with him at some point. And the kingdom of God, hopefully at some point in the eternities, he had the ability to fully repent. But at the very least, let us take from his experience and from others like John Boynton. Don't allow yourself to become angry at the prophet, the church, the leadership, whatever it is that's separating you from fully committing to the gospel, cut it out of your life. Because in the end, desperately trying to hang on to the things of this world doesn't really bring happiness anyway. Lyman Johnson was sure upset about his money that he thought he lost. But he dies a tragic death shortly after the Saints leave and. And head to Salt Lake. And he didn't take one cent of that money with him. It didn't matter whether he had his money back from the investment, because he didn't know that he was gonna. He actually dies by falling through the ice crossing the river and is swept under the ice and dies. No doubt he had no idea that would be the day that he passed, maybe for the rest of his life. He thought, you know what? I'm eventually going to do what Luke did, and I'm going to get back into the church. I'm going to go follow Mirinda out to Salt Lake. So hopefully all of us can take it as a bit of a warning. First of all, in the faith that many people saw, the plates. Plates are real. The Book of Mormon is real. Joseph Smith is a prophet, and he saw an angel multiple times. And second of all, don't allow yourself to be led away by a flaxen cord. Don't allow yourself to let people criticize the church to you to the point where your testimony is now being led away. Trust and believe. Thank you so much for listening, and hopefully we'll have an even better show next week. Maybe. Maybe it'll be a week in which Richard is Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot. If you know anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com until next time.