S4E51 Fallacies, Forgeries, and Football

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: S4E51 Fallacies, Forgeries, and Football

Release Date: December 19, 2024

Hosts:

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmot, Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU
• Dr. Richard Leduc

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1. Introduction and Lighthearted Banter

The episode kicks off with the hosts engaging in playful banter, setting a relaxed and humorous tone. Dr. Dirkmot introduces himself and welcomes Dr. Leduc, who humorously juggles the title “Doctor” multiple times [00:01–00:27]. Their lighthearted exchange continues as they discuss the iconic eastern redbud tree of Oklahoma State University, weaving in jokes about tree poisoning and the severe consequences it would entail.

Dr. Leduc: “We need to get our crack research staff on that.” [02:08]

2. Listener Shoutouts and Personal Stories

Transitioning from introductions, the hosts share personal anecdotes and listener interactions, providing a glimpse into their lives outside academia. Dr. Dirkmot talks about his upcoming graduation, complete with western attire and a sequined jacket, while Dr. Leduc humorously recounts an encounter where a Target delivery person mistook him for a podcast host.

Dr. Dirkmot: “So I'm here in Stillwater... under the shadow of the eternal hills and the eastern redbud tree.” [01:14]

They also acknowledge listeners like Alan and Sarah, sharing amusing stories about being recognized in unexpected places, such as basketball games.

3. Early History of BYU Football: Christmas Day Game of 1897

A significant portion of the episode delves into the intriguing history of Brigham Young University’s (BYU) early football games. The hosts examine a contentious Christmas Day game from 1897 between the Provo men and the Crescent team. This discussion highlights the rough-and-tumble nature of early American football, marked by violence, profanity, and chaos.

Dr. Leduc reads excerpts from a Salt Lake Herald Republican article detailing the game's abrupt end due to disputes over ball possession and subsequent altercations involving the referee.

Dr. Leduc: “The serene Christmas afternoon was marred by a chaotic football game... Captain Hyde of the Provo team withdrew from the contest in protest.” [20:43]

They explore the social and cultural context of the time, emphasizing how far the sport has evolved in terms of rules and conduct. The hosts draw parallels between the historical roughness of football and modern-day fan behavior, noting the persistence of intense rivalries.

4. Examination of Joseph Smith Document and Forgeries

Shifting focus, the hosts tackle the sensitive topic of document authentication within the Latter-Day Saints (LDS) history. Dr. Leduc recounts an encounter with a listener named Stephanie, who presented a letter purportedly written by Joseph Smith in 1842. The letter’s authenticity is scrutinized, with Dr. Leduc highlighting discrepancies such as inconsistent signatures and geographical impossibilities.

Dr. Leduc: “There was no possible way for Joseph Smith to have been in Alexandria in 1842... It’s likely a blatant forgery.” [44:38]

They discuss the importance of verifying historical documents, referencing the Joseph Smith Papers project. The conversation underscores the challenges historians face in distinguishing genuine artifacts from forgeries, especially when relying on names as common as "Joseph Smith."

5. Handling Negative Feedback and Listener Interactions

The episode also addresses the emotional toll of receiving negative feedback. Dr. Leduc shares his experience with an angry listener who disputed his research and beliefs, culminating in an anonymous letter accusing him of fraud. The hosts emphasize the importance of maintaining integrity and compassion when confronted with criticism, even when it feels personal.

Dr. Leduc: “I am not the best person. I clearly have anger issues... But I am certain that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God.” [58:54]

Dr. Dirkmot adds insights into managing such interactions, promoting a respectful dialogue despite disagreements. This segment highlights the podcast’s commitment to fostering understanding and faith amidst challenges.

6. Conclusions and Reflections

In wrapping up, the hosts reflect on the intertwining of history, faith, and personal experiences. They reiterate their dedication to uncovering and sharing authentic historical narratives that bolster the faith of Latter-Day Saints. The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of their belief in Joseph Smith as a prophet and a commitment to continuing their scholarly pursuits.

Dr. Leduc: “I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God... I hope that when you listen to this podcast, you know that for all the things you may dislike about me, that is a sincere and honest belief.” [67:49]

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Leduc on Team Spirit: “There were 22 of the most furious gladiators who ever wore the padded vestments of the gridiron.” [29:09]

• Dr. Dirkmot on Early Football Violence: “In early American football, it was not nearly as organized as it is now. Local towns and communities would create their own football clubs.” [21:12]

• Dr. Leduc on Document Forgery: “This is where the context of documents makes a big deal. There just was no possible way for Joseph Smith to have been in Alexandria.” [50:00]

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Final Thoughts:

"Fallacies, Forgeries, and Football" offers a rich blend of historical exploration, personal storytelling, and thoughtful discourse on faith and authenticity. Dr. Dirkmot and Dr. Leduc skillfully navigate complex topics, providing listeners with both educational insights and relatable experiences. This episode not only deepens the understanding of LDS history but also reinforces the importance of integrity in both scholarship and personal beliefs.

For more information and resources discussed in this episode, visit standardoftruth.com.

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Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast.

[B]

In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Doctor. Doctor.

[A]

Doctor.

[B]

Doctor. Doctor, Doctor. Doctor. Doctor. Doctor.

[A]

Doctor.

[B]

Doctor.

[A]

Doctor.

[B]

Doctor's Doctor. Doctor. Doctor. Doctor dot Doctor.

[A]

Doctor.

[B]

Doctor. Doctor,. Doctor.

[A]

Doctor. And Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early.

[B]

History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life.

[A]

And teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith.

[B]

They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard or Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc, who is currently examining a gigantic belt buckle, which I can only assume is handed out to you when you get a PhD at Oklahoma State.

[A]

Well, I did bring quite a bit of. So we're here in Stillwater. We are on site in the shadow of the everlasting hills and the shadows of the eastern redbud tree. The. That's the Oklahoma State tree, by the way, for those that has a tree. Yeah, well, you see, of course, it's the eastern red bud.

[B]

Does Utah State have a tree?

[A]

Well, I guess the state of Oklahoma.

[B]

Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about just the university has its own tree.

[A]

I would. Impossible.

[B]

Well, you know, Auburn has its own tree, right?

[A]

Yeah, that's right. It does that. You toilet paper when you win or lose.

[B]

Remember that there was now Alabama poisoned it.

[A]

Yeah. Or tried to poison. I did say that.

[B]

Killed it. Killed it.

[A]

It did.

[B]

We need to get our crack research staff on that.

[A]

He, I believe, got the death penalty for that. I believe he was in Alabama.

[B]

If they're, you know, the sin next to murder is destroying the Auburn tree.

[A]

Well, so, I mean, it's kind of.

[B]

Worse if you kill the Stanford tree.

[A]

I guess because it's a guy, but it's a person. We don't know.

[B]

Right. It's a person. Yes.

[A]

Yes. You know what? We're gonna get to the bottom of this. It was back in 2010, Harvey Updike was the name of the gentleman.

[B]

Wow. You're just calling him out. Hopefully he was convicted for it.

[A]

It was poisoned. Let's see. Oh, we're going to get to. We're going to see what's going on here, if it's. If it's alive or not, but yeah. Harvey, you're a monster, Harvey.

[B]

Do you think he listens to the podcast?

[A]

He does. And so he'll know. Yeah. He was ordered to pay $800,000 in restitution.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Amer American dollars.

[B]

Apparently. I Mean, what if it was 800,000, like, pesos. Still Argentinian. Yeah.

[A]

Well, yeah, that'd be about eight grand. That still actually seemed like more than. Anyway, so, yes, I. So my. My wife's family, they are full country, and so I wanted to be in. In full western attire for graduation. That's in a couple of hours, actually.

[B]

So you're essentially a rhinestone cowboy.

[A]

Yes, my jacket is. It's sequins. But so. So I borrowed. My niece won Magic Valley Sorting association finals champion in 1998.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

It's the biggest one I could find. So this is the one I'll be. I'll be wearing now.

[B]

Who won that?

[A]

My niece.

[B]

Okay. So she's far more accomplished at cowboy.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

[B]

Even though you're a PhD cowboy now.

[A]

That's correct. She. I think she actually is the. Is the rodeo coach for Idaho State. Go Bangles. Yeah, there you go.

[B]

Who would have thought Idaho State would have gotten a shout out on not Idaho State? Yeah. Speaking of shout outs, this occasionally happens. My wife was picking up something at Target the other night, and the person who brought the delivery out to the car asked her if she was related or if she knew the Dirk Mott who is a church historian. Now, what she should say at that point is, never heard of him, and then just drive right off. But she did say it. So give a shout out to Alan, who was helping her with her order there, and apparently a big podcast fan. Alan, thanks for listening.

[A]

Well, that's very good, Garrett. We. We have so much to cover. You've done a good job preparing for this. This episode. We've got a couple of fun hits, quick hits. Yeah, relatively. And then we'll see.

[B]

I think everyone listening has a pretty good idea what quick means.

[A]

It's going to be a three parter on.

[B]

We're doing a 19 part series on Richard's graduation. He. He still wants to do just an entire episode where he tells you about implied referrals.

[A]

Yes, yes.

[B]

And then he can use it as his research to see how many of you stop listening to the podcast.

[A]

This is true. We did go to get lunch at a place here, the garage, where we got a peanut butter and pickled jalapeno.

[B]

But I did not partake.

[A]

It was delicious. You had a bite?

[B]

No, I didn't even try it.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Yeah. You know, I stopped eating things I didn't want to eat when I was a missionary. The moment they released me, they took me into that High Council room. They released me as a missionary and I Said, you know, from where the sun now stands, I will never eat another onion that I don't want to eat.

[A]

Well, it was delicious. But anyway, I highly recommend it. If you're just passing through Stillwater, which you couldn't possibly.

[B]

You have to be on a cattle drive.

[A]

Yep, that's true.

[B]

Yeah, you have to be on a cattle drive or coming here for a game. No one casually finds themselves in Stillwater.

[A]

No, it's. It's way off. It's off the freeway.

[B]

If you were trying to claim land in the Oklahoma land rush, you wouldn't be finding your way to Still.

[A]

I believe we have two water towers. It's very nice. It's well known.

[B]

It's a beautiful campus.

[A]

There's a. There's a movie with Jason Bourne. What's his. What's his face. Oh, my gosh. Ben Affleck and Matt Damon. Thank you, Becky, for that. Matt Damon in a movie called Stillwater that I haven't seen. I think someone's arrested and sent to Iran. I don't know. But anyway, it's named Stillwater. The. The. The water towers are prominent in the opening to the film. I understand. So there you go.

[B]

Well, that's good to know.

[A]

Fun fact to the Phoebe Draper mailbag. Garrett Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown. This first email comes to us from. I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly. Not likely that I am Dene. Possibly.

[B]

It's possible that it's Danae.

[A]

Yes, it is possible. Missionary podcast Litner. She asks if it'd be possible to send the Google Drive here to the missionary. Hey, would you be able to share the Google Drive with. With my missionary friend? He's serving in the Las Vegas, Nevada mission. Unfortunately, we only share the Google Drive with people that are serving in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission.

[B]

If you're not in Pennsylvania, we're cutting everyone else off. We decided that we're just gonna hedge all of our bets. We know we can make it in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It's the only place we know we can make it.

[A]

If you can make it there, you can make it. Yeah, it's like six other places.

[B]

Good. Spreading the news. Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. It's. Yeah, it's. That's what it's like. But no, obviously we can.

[A]

So we will send that to Elder Wise and she says, love and ever faithful softy.

[B]

Oh, callback to a potential way of talking to. About our listeners. I don't think it's going to catch on.

[A]

I don't know that it will. P.S. my husband says he'll be Keeping his eye open for a giant belt buckle. For Richard, best wishes on the dissertation defense.

[B]

Well, you know what? You. You. You're gonna have to. I mean, it would be probably better if you weren't wearing a. A women's belt buckle. Right.

[A]

It's a little flashier than I'm used to.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

The next email comes from friend of the show, Sarah. She sent a screenshot of essentially. Well, I'll read it here and then it'll explain. In theory, some of those minutes must have been attributed to other podcasts, but it feels like I've spent over almost 20,000 minutes listening to you guys. So I guess it was the Spotify screenshot, right? That.

[B]

That, like, shows how many minutes you've done this year.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. So that's.

[B]

So she's claiming nearly 20,000 minutes listening to the podcast.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

I. I don't know at what point we need to have an intervention and say, Sarah, there are other better things in this world than listening to this podcast, namely laundry or. I don't. Changing diapers. There's multiple things that are better.

[A]

Well, so we know Sarah's parents, and I feel like when she comes home, possibly for the holidays, that they're just. They're sitting there in their living room, just calm demeanor and contemplating it. She comes in, sarah, why don't you. Why don't you come sit down? We need to. We need to have a talk.

[B]

So it's an intervention.

[A]

That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

[B]

Well, her. Her brother was in my class. It's true. So maybe he is the one saying, we've got to do something about this.

[A]

He's written a letter saying, this is how you're listening to the podcast affects my life.

[B]

Yeah. And he's reading it out loud. Yeah. Well, so thank you, Sarah, for listening. But then she also had another P.S.

[A]

She had a P.S. yes. Signs at faithfully listening and still hoping for premium for Christmas.

[B]

Talk to your parents.

[A]

P.S. i think it's also important for me to include that I, no joke, was a missionary in the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Miss January 2018 to June 2019. So I feel proud every time a Pennsylvania Pittsburgh missionary writes to you, even though I had absolutely zero idea who any of them are.

[B]

We legit got three more. Just like in the last two days.

[A]

It's. It's become my favorite thing in the entire world.

[B]

All we get is emails from missionaries in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission.

[A]

Well, that's. Right. Well, that's why we're not going to give access to Elder. Elder Wise at The request of Danae.

[B]

That's not happening.

[A]

He's serving in Las Vegas.

[B]

What are you doing in Vegas? Yeah.

[A]

Get out of there.

[B]

If you'd been more righteous.

[A]

That's right. You could be in Pittsburgh for the winter. You can verify this with my parents. I'm not just saying. I was a missionary there. So you get you to read this. Although that may be a good strategy for current missionaries, it would actually be a great strategy.

[B]

So a missionary that's like in Johannesburg just says they're the Pittsburgh Mission. So that we'll read it is that.

[A]

I could see, you know, because we don't know.

[B]

I mean, they just send us an email. So we don't actually verify. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

No way. But like I can see, you know, when people. The experience. When Riker opened his mission call, we were actually on a tour.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so he opened it. You were on Zoom?

[B]

Because I'm that kind of a parent.

[A]

Yeah. You. You weren't there. Yeah.

[B]

Although somebody wasn't even here when someone went to the mtc.

[A]

Yeah. Our son, he got a ride there with his friends. We were on vacation.

[B]

Everyone has the drop off story of like, you know, we got out of the car and we hugged each other. It was so quick. And we were all crying and he got hustled off one Direction. We had to get back in our car and drive away. Not Richard and Becky. Their. Their MTC drop off story is Rigdon's friends driving him to the MTC and dropping him off. Did his friends cry?

[A]

I. I just. Yeah, one of his friends got kind of emotional and you know, it was. It was. It was a touching moment. And it is fast if you haven't done it or, or because when. Because when you and I went, you sit down and you watch a video.

[B]

And then you watch the whole. That I just caught on fire. Like I didn't think I ever thought of everybody. Missionary work, slept, missionary work, drink, missionary work. And then. And I still remember them. They're singing Called to serve in all the languages.

[A]

Susame.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, so it was like the great. Like you did leave, like totally on fire.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That was when we dropped off my. My brothers. And I remember going to watch that with. With D and my parents taking me to watch it for me and. But yeah, I just caught on fire. Just caught on fire.

[A]

Well, so. But now with your kids, it's like you pull into a parking garage and you don't even stop the car. Like it's still rolling.

[B]

It's like trying to drop someone off in front of the. In front of Disneyland, you know, where you're not allowed to stop, but you don't want to have to find a place to pull over. So you're just. It's a rolling thing. Get out of the car. Yeah.

[A]

You're like. You're like, I feel like Billy Crystal and throw mama from the train.

[B]

You're just.

[A]

It's not just a rolling stop.

[B]

Rolling stop.

[A]

You just throw him out. So. But we weren't there. The problem is that he comes home kind of in between. It's either June or July. June. We're out of town.

[B]

Yeah. June is gonna be rough.

[A]

So we're hoping that he. It's. It's July, but it'd be hilarious if.

[B]

Both when he left and when he came home, you guys were gone.

[A]

My cousin Jimmy, he came home from his mission and his parents were on a cruise, and he had to get, like, a taxi. No one was there at the airport. Had to get a taxi to go home.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

Hilarious.

[B]

Which is also the reason why Richard wasn't there to drop Rigden off.

[A]

I was on. I was on vacation, and I'm gonna be on vacation in June. Yeah.

[B]

And I. You guys are stronger people. Angie would have she. The chances of her dropping. Not dropping Riker off.

[A]

I mean, he wasn't happy about it. It was.

[B]

But she seemed happy in the pictures that day.

[A]

Well, you're gonna seem happy in pictures of the Caribbean.

[B]

What are you gonna do?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, it was lovely. We had a great time.

[B]

It was awesome.

[A]

But, yeah. So what are we talking about?

[B]

Oh, next. Next email.

[A]

Oh, yes, yes. Next email. Anyway, let's see. She does say thank you again, genuinely, for all the time and effort you devote to the podcast. And friend of the show, Sarah, who we. We absolutely adore.

[B]

Yeah. Our whole family.

[A]

Next email comes to us from Julie. I was at a basketball game against Tippanogos the other day, and my friend said, isn't that the guy from the Standard of Truth podcast? I had not ever heard of you, so I couldn't confirm.

[B]

So that's how you know we're really making it. When someone says, hey, isn't that the guy from this? And they're like, what the heck are you talking about?

[A]

It is. It is the crappiest form of celebrity character.

[B]

It really is.

[A]

It's like, not so Latter Day Saint, first of all. Not in the world. Latter Day Saint number one. So you're also super niche.

[B]

So I'm already like, you're already a D list celebrity before you even get to the list.

[A]

Yeah. Before you get to the. The medium that you are. That you are in. So podcast historian, Latter Day Saint historian, Podcaster is the crappiest of the crappiest celebrity.

[B]

It's not like I'm Hank Smith or. No, no.

[A]

Oh, my gosh, no. Those guys are great.

[B]

No. Yeah. Yeah. They're good at what they do.

[A]

They're good what they do. Very talented.

[B]

Yeah. Funny.

[A]

Yeah. Handsome.

[B]

Wonderful. They have an amazing podcast, a good report.

[A]

Praiseworthy.

[B]

We seek after these things.

[A]

We should. Yeah. So. So that's first of all. And so then you're like. She's like, I've never heard of him. Or the. I've never heard of.

[B]

I think it's funny. Like, do you ever have friends who do that when they say. When they say, oh, have you ever seen this movie? And of course you never heard of it, and then they begin to explain it to you that it was, like, a limited release that went straight to DVD that's never gotten any circulation. Why are you even asking me if I saw that movie? No one's seen that movie. That's like the podcast.

[A]

So I. I often make movie references, but before I do, if it's a. If it's a reference to a movie that I think is, all right, this is a little bit older. Because when I teach in class, by the way, I've never felt older in my life.

[B]

Because you're like, hey, how about. How about George C. Scott and Christmas Carola? And they're like, I don't know who George C. Scott is. I don't know what the Christmas Carol is.

[A]

I don't know who. Yeah, Charles Dickens is. I don't know what England is.

[B]

We don't even celebrate Christmas. Not anymore.

[A]

No. So I will say. I will ask if they've seen the movie, and then they say no. And then I'm like, well, funnier if you did, essentially. But so here. So this would be almost similar to. Do you know that guy who played JV basketball for Skyview in 1997? I feel like that's what is almost right.

[B]

I'm the JV basketball champ.

[A]

So Clinton looked up the roster, and sure enough, the last name. It was the last name he was looking for. He went over and met Garrett, and you were very gracious. I listened to podcasts all day, so I checked it out, and I'm loving it. My son is serving a mission in Africa. She means Pennsborough. And always looking for content. So if you can send it to him. So I I will send it to him. I am a descendant of Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown from the Palmer part of her name. So I was especially excited about the mailbag. Thanks for your efforts and testimony, Julie.

[B]

We'll have to send you an email to tell you that we're responding to your email, because if you're just starting the podcast now, you'll get to this shout out sometime after, you know, 2029.

[A]

Well, maybe Clint will tell her about it.

[B]

Maybe Clint could possibly say. Although Clint's probably horrified that we just brought this up, it was very nice to meet you, Clinton. I didn't get a chance to meet Julie, only, Only Clint, because she didn't know who I was.

[A]

She had no interest.

[B]

Yeah, he was probably like, hey, hey, do you think I should go meet him? And she's like, I don't care about him. I guess go say hi. What difference does it make? He looks like a weirdo. Look at that last name. It was. My son was playing in that basketball game. Now, I have to also say that I feel very uncomfortable when I go to my son's basketball games because this has actually happened a lot now. Again, not because I'm, I'm famous, but I think it's because I'm an annoying fan.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And I, I, I, I really, I, I get very. I, I, I yell out at basketball games for my son. And so I'm always worried that I'll be like, come on, ref. You know, that was a charge. And then someone will be like, aren't you the one from the podcast? And they'll just like, like Lee Trevino and Happy Gilmore. They'll just kind of sour face and shake their head back.

[A]

That's, that's when you say, I am. My name is Richard Leduc.

[B]

Yeah, that's what, that's what I need to do going forward. You know, it made me think about. So I happened upon this the other day, and it was a newspaper account of one of the earliest BYU football games. I think I can, I can speak for everyone listening who's a BYU fan, that at the beginning of the season, you would have probably, you know, stolen your grandmother's money to get 10 wins.

[A]

I would have converted to Judaism.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. You would have been like, oh, if Jake Retzlau says, this is the only way we can do it, I'm headed to temple. You know, but, you know, then you have the problem of expectations, right? That, you know, they won the first three, and you're like, man, are they really, Are they really going to be, like, mean Are they going to go to a bowl game? And then they, you know, they got to six wins and you're like, are they. Are they really good? And then you started to have delusions of grandeur that they would. That they would play for the Big 12 championship. And even for a while, they were even in the bracket for the playoffs.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Two losses in a row and we find ourselves headed to San Antonio. Yeah.

[A]

Remember the Alamo?

[B]

Yep. And we know how that ended. Probably went the same way for us now, if you remember, that's where I got my PhD was the university of Colorado.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's go Buffalo.

[B]

My current employer and my reason for being employed actually going together. But I think they don't care about that as much as they care about Deion Sanders. So I came across this early account, and the reason why I came across it was I was. I was going through some Wilford Woodruff letters, as one is want to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, you're just going to read some Wilford Woodruff stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. You're going to do that. It's a Thursday.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I mean, came home from a game against Tippanogos.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I just Meeting Clint and not meeting.

[B]

Julie and being embarrassed about the fact that I, you know, was maybe yelling more than I should have been and. So what are you going to do? You're going to come home and. And make yourself feel like a better person. Reading some incoming email to Wilford Woodruff from 1896 or 97. Anyway, reading a certain letter kind of led me down a little bit of a rabbit hole. And it. It concerns the Brigham Young Academy and their football team. In the early days of Brigham Young Academy.

[A]

Is this one of their first games or the first, early one of their.

[B]

It's one of their first seasons that. And, you know, given that we're all at least pretending to be BYU football fans now. This was in. In the. The second season, 1897, that there was a game played on Christmas. Now, normally, BYU doesn't schedule their football games on Christmas.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. It's not.

[A]

Now who are they playing?

[B]

Here they are playing the Crescents.

[A]

Oh, they're playing Turkey or some. Some Muslim team. That's why they played on Christmas.

[B]

In early American football, it was not nearly as organized as it is now. And so local towns and communities would create their own football clubs.

[A]

Yeah. Michigan's got to win against the high school team, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. You think like.

[A]

No, no, I know they do. It's one of those things where they like. Because they're the. Have the most wins of any program in the history of college football.

[B]

But back in the day.

[A]

Yeah, one of the. One of their wins is against a high school.

[B]

So in the 1890s. So, you know, I am a. I'm quite a versatile historian. In my early days as a historian, I actually was asked to write an encyclopedia entry for American football and its history and its development. And so the early days. Yeah, don't ask me why, because I was available.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. It's the same reason why I give firesides. They're like, well, we tried to get the good people. They all said no. If you try that Garrett guy, he'll say yes to anything. That's what Richard tried. And then here we are. So here is an article from December 26th. December 26th, 1897, the day after. Okay. From the Salt Lake Herald Republican. It ended in a row is the title of the article. Football game on the university campus yesterday. The Provo men versus the Crescents. The Southern Giants withdrew on an adverse decision. So the Half Moons claimed the victory by a score of four to a goose egg. So they're not even scoring touchdowns as six points yet. That's how early this is in football here. But the referee gave the game to Provo. A bad day for football, and there was a whole lot of trouble. So those. That's. Those are all the sub headlines of the headline. None of that's the actual story yet. So it's still the 19th century, where when we give you a title, we want you to know literally everything that's in it and then we give you the story. I mean, in some ways, we're kind of come full circle now where it's like, you know, you have like, AI, like summarize it for you. I go. Is this an email from Bill? It's probably just about another adultery. Just what does it say? We already know. So here's the article. As a badly. Remember, this is a Christmas Day game. Brigham Young Academy is what will. BYU will later be named. So this is the early football team. As a badly muddled and dismal a football game is there ever marred. The serenity of a Christmas afternoon was the one enacted yesterday afternoon on the university campus between the rival warriors of Provo and and Crescent teams. The game ended abruptly in the second half when Captain Hyde of the Provo team gathered his Southern gladiators around him and withdrew from the contest. Contest. As a physical and emphatic protest against a decision by umpire Smith. The Provoites had battered their way through the crescent line until they were within two yards of a touchdown when Larson, who was carrying the oval. You don't usually get the oval as the. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Now it's the rock. The pigskin. Yeah, the oval.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I'm not calling it that.

[B]

Maybe I should read this in like, should we read this in, in like a John Madden voice or, or you.

[A]

Should get one of those like press hats from the 1920s, you know what I'm talking about?

[B]

And then just kind of the high pitched, like quick, like, like it's reading the news type.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's like. Game ended abruptly when the second half, when Captain Hyde of the Provo team gathered his Southern Gladiators around him and withdrew to the contest as a physical. You think that was great? You think that's what we should do?

[A]

I don't, but I loved it. That was great.

[B]

Well, so let's go. On carrying the oval, he got tangled up in the embrace of O'Brien and they fell together. Both of them were holding the ball with tenacious fingers. And just as Larson released his hold, umpire Smith appeared on the scene and awarded the ball to the Half moons, which is Crescent. The Crescents, a muddle. The trouble was that this was a question of which only the referee could roll. So the umpire says, oh, well, the Crescents have the ball. But apparently in early football, all decisions like that had to be approved by the referee who was there. Now there's still an umpire and a referee in football games today, but this is apparently a decision of a fumble or who has possession. You have to, you have to send that up the line. Apparently you're, you're, you're, you're going into New Jersey to have them check with the replay to see. And he says the referee, it was a, it was a, it was a question only which the referee could rule. The referee was Mr. Call of Provo, who promptly reversed the decision after he had disengaged himself from a few fisticuff specialties on the sidelines. So apparently while the teams are fighting over whose ball it is, the referee is involved in a fist fight in the stands. Now, I'm not entirely sure how that even happens, but some of you might be able to email in who are referees and say, I can tell you exactly how it happens. So you know, the referee didn't see the play, but he's the one who has to rule on it. Then the scorn and ire of the Crescents arose like the inception of an amateur hurricane. That's a very interesting Phraseology. An amateur hurricane. So a hurricane that doesn't have its Ph.D. that's right. So someone who's going to the University of Miami.

[A]

Yeah, but.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So what would the wind be there? Five miles, like a light breeze.

[B]

An amateur hurricane or. Although I am reading this from a Utah newspaper. So is it an amateur hurricane?

[A]

I think it's a hurricane.

[B]

Yeah. Hurricane. Call here took advantage of the low in the tumult and said Provo had won the game. The Crescent routers did not take kindly to the referee calls remarks. This is hard to believe that people would be upset at a referee for a call like that that ends the game.

[A]

It's weird. I don't have any local or recent history of even Utah football where that happened.

[B]

Weird. Weird.

[A]

So.

[B]

So no one's ever said that someone lost a game because of referee.

[A]

Not in the state of Utah back in 1897. Not in the universities.

[B]

Well, let's. Let's continue reading, shall we?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Call here took advantage of the Lowell, the Talmud, and said Provo won the game. The Crescent Rooters did not take kindly to referee calls remarks. And as soon as he descended from the high elevation, from thence he had launched his ruling, about 14 of the rooters, as nearly as can be estimated, seized him and painted several maps in a promiscuous way upon his face. Now, I'm not sure what that even means. I need that. I need you to do some research on that.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

There were 22 of the most furious gladiators who ever wore the padded vestments of the gridiron. The players were. The players were only about the only ones present who shed any tears of regret over the sudden ending of the amenities. The snow was deep, the air was full of frost arrows, and the untamable crowd went romping over the field like a herd of colts. So they stormed the field. So the crowd stormed the field before the game was over. Again, that's never happened before.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Yeah, you can see why I thought. This is very interesting.

[A]

Yeah, this is interesting.

[B]

Yeah. I realized all of our listeners have stopped listening.

[A]

There was. Well, there was a. I mean, just even. This was championship week and rivalry week and there was all kinds of like, we shouldn't let fans on the field and this is causing problems and we need to do something. It sounds like it's been going on for quite some time.

[B]

It's actually 150 years. Football started in a much more rough and tumble way. Like today. They want you to believe that it's very, you know, it's all. It's all, you know, broken legs and brain injuries. But back then it was a little more rough and tumble. You're thinking, how does this have to do with Wilford Woodruff? Well, don't, don't.

[A]

We're so close.

[B]

Don't go away. Well, we're not even close, but let me keep going. They the. The untable crowd romping over the field like a herd of colts. Some of the crowd also were not members of any of the temperance union. That's a way of them saying they were drunk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And enough fights occurred on the sidelines to have done credit to a Queenstown holiday. The Crescents did not seem to be in good physical form for such a combat. The hard brass of the Provo Sinew was proving too strong for them, and they had the game. And had the game continued for the allotted time, it's likely that they would have dashed through the half moons and reaped a victory even though they were losing at the time the game was called several times a crescent was left on the snow after one of the swift mad rushes. Hyde and Larson beat their way yesterday like a duo of fighting goths. Their ceaseless hammering was it. Apparently this is what they call like when you're running up the gut. It's like hammering. It's over and over again. Was irresistible. And together they made the hardest, strongest and. And pair of halfbacks that that local gridiron has developed this season. LA fever. The stocky and sturdy beat beat down the famous earnestness. Wow. What? Sorry. Beat down the famous erstwhile, unbreakable crescent turtle back by the might of his muscle.

[A]

So half back, full back, turtle back.

[B]

Yeah. At some point they're gonna be the ninja turtles.

[A]

I feel like when he says turtle back, did he just fall down and he's just.

[B]

Yeah. The Crescent back did some clever work and their interference was iron, but they apparently were weaker at almost every part of their line than the visitors. When the game ended, there were 20 minutes remaining of the second half. The Crescents claim the game on a score of 4 to 0. And they are anxious to meet the Provo men again and decide the contest. Finally, the lineup for the Crescents. And then he gives the lineup for the Crescents and for Brigham Young Academy. So I wondered as I looked up an image of this football team that was involved in this fight, this Christmas Day brawl of a football game, and maybe some of our listeners have. They may be related to some of these people. Should we. Should we check and see perhaps?

[A]

Yes, of course.

[B]

Okay. So these were the men of the Brigham Young Academy football team, at least from the picture, maybe there were more than this, but these are the ones we have. Albert Filler up, John Johansson, Brett Burt Miller, Frederick Ewell, John Judd, Dell Brown, David Hall, Frank Cox, Bayard Mendenhall. There were Mendenhalls on the BYU football team from the beginning of time.

[A]

And congratulations to Bronco and his family. They're going to love Logan. Hey, it's great to have him back in the.

[B]

Awesome that he's coaching you.

[A]

Yeah, I've always liked Bronco, man. He's a nice guy.

[B]

Were for it.

[A]

Yeah, of course.

[B]

Bayard Menenhall, David Hyde, who's the captain of the team. So if you happen to have a great, great grandfather who's David Hyde, he was the, he was the captain of the byu, the, the Brigham Young Academy football team. John Peterson, William Hughes, Orville Larson and Jesse Leever. Those were the, those were the team. Obviously they, they did a lot of two way playing. Yeah, you didn't, back in the day, you didn't have specialized. You know, you said 11 people in the team. They had 12 in case someone gets killed, which did happen actually quite a bit. It's one of the unfortunate. It's one of the unfortunate aspects of early American football.

[A]

You don't say. Yeah, that's unfortunate.

[B]

Well, people were killed because, I mean, they didn't have hardly any of the equipment that we have and. Well, I don't want to get ahead of the story. Let me, let me get to the letter that Wilford Woodruff received. This letter is written to him from the office of the Deseret Sunday School Union, Salt Lake City, December 27th. So two days after.

[A]

I never miss an issue, obviously.

[B]

To the first presidency. So this letter. Yeah. So some of you probably have someone in your ward who just, you know, I'm just going to write to the first presidency about this. I mean about, you know, whether or not we should have 12 people in each youth Sunday school class. I'm just going to write. I'm not going to ask the bishop, I'm not going to ask the stake president. Going to write to the first Presidency.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Area authority, doesn't matter. First Presidency. So to the First Presidency. Wilford Woodruff, George Q. Cannon, Joseph F. Smith. Okay, this is who this letters to. Dear brethren, as an elder in Israel, will you kindly permit me the privilege of laying before you the practices now being indulged in by the students of our colleges and universities to name college yells and football games, both of which to say the Least are damaging to the respectability of such institutions and very destructive in their tendency of life limb and the high religious tone that should always characterize every Latter Day Saint school of learning. A few days ago, as I was coming from the high priest meeting, I was much humiliated as a member of the church by the emblazoned announcement in Main street, carried by boys of a football game contest between the Latter Day Saint College students and those of some other institution. But thanks to the unanimous vote and stand taken by the members of the Stake board of Education who resolved that the game should not come off although advertised and it did not, I sincerely hope that such an unmistakable impression was made not only by the presiding authority of the college, but the students themselves that will for will forever prevent its resurrection. On my way to Lehigh yesterday, my attention was directed to the large headlines in the Tribune. Was a slugging match ended in a row. Which is a. Is a late 19th century way of saying there was a fight. A row. Then came the details of the Provo Academy Crescent football game played on Christmas Day, where drinking, profanity and fighting were so freely indulged in that they made it impossible for the officers of the law to repress. I don't know how many accounts you have of drunk fans at BYU football games at Provo. I. Look, I've been to enough football games where I'm the visiting cougar that there are at times fans who are not members of the Temperance Union in the stands.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Have you experienced that?

[A]

I have from time to time. And they seem to be fairly, especially on a Christmas Day, fairly jolly. Yeah, I would imagine.

[B]

You'd think instead they're in a fistfight.

[A]

Yeah. Well, you're gonna go one way or the other.

[B]

So drinking, profanity and fighting was so freely indulgent made it impossible for the offers of the law to repress press. Such was the way that some of our young men who are supposed to be training for the ministry to teach mankind to revere, honor and obey. Jesus Christ observed the anniversary of his birthday prize fighting is an innocent amusement in comparison. Back then again, boxing was also considered like a dirty sport, like a sport that you should not be. You know, people had actions against it. And unless the. Back to the letter, unless football can be stopped, I fear it will lead to a religious partisan conflict as that spirit was evidently manifest last Saturday. As I cannot conceive of one particle of good arising from indulgences in either yells or football games. But I can see a great amount of evil. Therefore my voice and influence will always be in favor of their utter abandonment by all Latter Day Saints. Please receive these sentiments as the honest impressions of my heart and praying for the Lord to so guide and direct you in this matter that will most advance the righteousness of his kingdom. I remain your friend and brother. George Goddard.

[A]

I found a team photo that I'll. I'll post a link to bya.

[B]

Yeah. Yes.

[A]

Looks like they played University of Utah three times that year.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The Wheel Club of Denver. The local ymca, the Elks.

[B]

I mean, and you didn't usually think of the Elks Lodge as your local football team. No, but this is how football started. It started as local clubs. I mean, people who are fans of. Of English football, of soccer, that they probably have a better understanding of this kind of thing where towns kind of generically create their own football clubs. And then some of those clubs become big. And the next thing you know, you. You bend it like Beckham and, you know, there's. There's a whole. There's a great deal of separation. Eventually that comes.

[A]

Do we have a response from. From President Woodruff?

[B]

We do not, unfortunately, because I think you would love that. But I will say it is only a couple of years later when football is actually banned from byu. They stop playing it and they don't retake it up again until the 19.

[A]

Some BYU fans believe that perhaps they haven't still maybe recovered in certain seasons.

[B]

Well, that's the thing is that had we been allowed to continue playing uninterrupted from our defeat of the Crescents. My favorite part of this entire thing, though, is that the reason why the referee couldn't make the call is he was currently engaged in a fight himself, which is how, you know, it's a good game. I mean, these were. These were spectacles. And it kind of goes along with 19th century amusements, but you can see why people had negative things to say about it.

[A]

So I did find, actually Michigan has played two high school teams. Ann Arbor High School. They defeated them in 1891. 62 to nothing.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And then they. And then they. In 1896, Grand Rapids, they gave them a good. A good challenge. 44 to nothing. The first. The first college football game ever. Do you. Do you know who played that? So it was Rutgers, Rutgers and New Jersey. Now Princeton. And the score was six to four. But a touchdown was worth one point.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And so like 42 to 28, six touchdowns. Yeah, you're putting up a lot of points. Do you know the largest defeat in college football history?

[B]

It's Got to be like 200 to nothing or something.

[A]

It was 222 to nothing. Georgia Tech, this is in 1916 versus the fighting Cumberland College Bulldogs.

[B]

Not a whole lot of fight in the Cumberland College Bulldogs.

[A]

No, they have since changed their name from the Bulldogs to the Phoenix, which is appropriate. Rising from the ashes, I would assume.

[B]

Ashes, yes.

[A]

Yeah. So a little, little fun football, old timey history for you.

[B]

It is interesting to study this. It's part of the way of realizing that obviously things change over the course of time, but you would find people that would say things like that today.

[A]

It literally happened two weeks ago.

[B]

Yes, it. All of these things that fans storm the field, everyone was punched. I mean, we didn't have referees going up into the stands and fighting people.

[A]

That we know, that we know of. But I don't follow a lot of Division 3. I imagine it's a little rough and tumble in some of the smaller towns beyond Thunderdome. That's right.

[B]

If you go to Division 3. Well, so I thought that would be fun to share a little bit as we're going into college bowl season. Also wanted to share an experience that I had this week where someone contacted me and said, you know, Dr. Dirkmaat, can I meet with you? It's very important. And, you know, I blew them off. No, I tried to find a time to meet with him and I go to meet. And she said, you know, I have a document I need you to look at. And so I was thinking, well, is this like someone's made some kind of antagonistic argument? Is someone, you know, claiming something that she needs a little bit more? And in actuality, she brought in, in a, in a framed glass, very nice case, a letter that was written by, by Joseph Smith in 1842. So she comes and, and she, she sits down and, and we start going over it. I actually called in one of my colleagues because, you know, with something like that, you always want to have someone else to blame. You don't want, you don't want to be the only one that's on the hook for that. And you know, I start looking at the paper and it is, I mean, it is paper from the air, at least from what I can tell, I couldn't touch it. But you get a pretty good sense of paper, you know, looking at it. And it does look like it's a legitimate postmark. The price on the letter, 37 and a half cents, is the legitimate amount of money that it would have cost to send a, a letter like that in, in, in 1842. These are all things you just, you know, you pick up. Yeah, you pick up. I mean, you know, you do the same thing when you're like, do I need to send some Christmas cards? Oh, how much do they cost? And then, you know. So this is how the letter reads. Sir, I received yours of the 11th Ultima. I mean, the last of Ultimo, meaning the. Of last month is what it means. And encloses a copy of the power of attorney to Smith. Okay. So this is. And it's signed down there at the bottom, Joseph Smith. Well, I think they're, you know, even more interesting is that there are names of subscribing witnesses to witness this. Sidney W. Smith and Samuel Smith. So not only do we have this letter written by Joseph Smith.

[A]

Wow, look at that.

[B]

There's Richard looking at it.

[A]

Yeah, that. You know what? I feel like you do get a feel for the paper. That looks like some old paper.

[B]

Yeah. So it's a letter written by Joseph Smith in 1842, and it even references his brother, Samuel Smith. Now, if you look on the. The other side of the paper there, you had another signature. So on the, on the flip side of the letter, which obviously wasn't complete, there was another signature of Joseph Smith. But you can already possibly see if you look at that. Okay, now let me show you the other side. I know this is not very good for an audio medium.

[A]

Oh, we can, we can put the. No, no, we can't show the image. No.

[B]

If we. Or not.

[A]

Okay. Just kidding. Well, even though I say we'll do it, I never do it.

[B]

We don't ever do it anyway. They're clearly different signatures.

[A]

Yeah, look at that.

[B]

What's interesting is the. The first signature on the front page doesn't really look like any of the Joseph Smith signatures. Now, Joseph changes his signatures over the course of time. Also, Joseph has scribes sign his name all of the time. Not. I mean, not all the time, but lots of the time. There are lots of things that are signed by Joseph Smith, but it's actually Willard Richards that's signing it. In fact, the person bringing this in said, you know, it kind of looks like the way Thomas Bullock signed Joseph Smith's name. And I was like, well, yeah, it can't be, because 1842 and Thomas Bullock doesn't come to Nauvoo till 1843. So it's not that. Right. What's interesting is on the. The other side of, you know, the signature that's on the backside, that one actually looks pretty similar to some of Joseph Smith's main signatures that he has, very similar. And so the question was, you know, is this authentically a Joseph Smith document? Now, how did she come into possession of it? Well, it was her grandmother's, and her grandmother had gotten it from a BYU professor. So this is years and years and.

[A]

Years ago, probably back when the Brigham Academy, 1896.

[B]

So they walked off of the field after the fight.

[A]

She decked the ref, took his letter from Joseph Smith.

[B]

Here's the Joseph Smith letter. Let's see what kind of money we could get for this. And. And of course, you know, this guy was a good guy, but he had bought it from a collector. And so the grandmother had this in her possession and had asked the daughter to go try and find out more about it. And this is a great example of, I don't know where someone along the line was negligent, just looking for fame or looking for profit. I want to give some grace, because I don't know any of the people involved. I mean, I didn't even know the woman who came to visit. Her name is Stephanie. Very lovely. And she wanted to know, because when someone says that, first of all, whenever anyone comes to me and says, hey, you know, my great, great grandfather, he was one of Joseph's bodyguards, like, my soul goes dark.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm like, I can't wait to. No, no, he said that he was there with a Sharps repeating rifle. No, they didn't invent the Sharps repeating rifle until after. So I guess not. You know, I mean, but that. That's the kind of thing that you're at. Well, so I. I examine, I look at it, and the problem is, you know, while it says Joseph Smith on it and the signature on the back kind of looks like a Joseph Smith signature. Now, I didn't get to test it. We didn't get to do, you know, those kinds of things. It was still in glass. There's other clues that you can look at for an image. Right. And this is something that someone wouldn't have been able to do before the Joseph Smith papers existed. So it's written from Alexandria, Virginia, to someone living in Randolph County. So Joseph Smith is. And it's postmarked in Virginia. Right. So. So this would have had to have been Joseph Smith when He went to D.C. apparently. Right. Alexandria. Right there. The problem is, we know when Joseph Smith went to D.C. and it wasn't in 1842, certainly not in November of 1842, because of the Joseph Smith papers. I could pull up the documents from 1842. This is the most boring podcast we've ever done. I apologize.

[A]

Well, we should do more about talking about an image. No one can say.

[B]

I feel like we should talk about images we can't see and fights at football games. That's what we've developed.

[A]

Well, there is a payoff at the end here because you have a. You have a story about another thing you received.

[B]

I don't know. I don't think. I don't know if we'll get there. But anyway, so the documents, if you look at them, if you go into the Joseph Smith Papers website, click on documents, you can click on it by year, you can actually see all of the documents that were created by Joseph Smith during that same time period. And some of the things you can see is that he's leading city council meetings, like two days before when this letter was written. Now, there would be many dead horses underneath you were you to make it from Nauvoo, Illinois, to Alexandria, Virginia, in 1842 in, in two or three days. I, I mean, is it even theoretically possible? Probably not. I mean, it's, it's, it's weeks of journeys together, crack research stuff. But on top of that, we also know where Joseph was. Right? So when Joseph traveled places, it's a pretty big deal for historians. Like, for instance, one thing I thought I would share, not on this podcast, but maybe on. On our. A future one, was Joseph Smith's response when he first goes to New York City and what he thinks about the place when he goes. He also, of course, goes to D.C. to try to petition for the Saints to be able to get their land back in Missouri. And so those, those trips are big deals. In 1842, however, especially in the second half of 1842, Joseph Smith isn't really traveling anywhere. And that's because Missouri is trying to extradite Joseph Smith from Illinois so that they can try him for the attempted assassination of former governor Lilburn Boggs. Boggs, who someone shoots in the summer of 1842 without any evidence whatsoever, immediately claims, well, it must have been Porter Rockwell who tried to do it. Porter Rockwell probably would have said, yeah, you got me. I don't, I don't know. We don't. We. We don't know. I mean, it clearly appears to be trumped up. But they tried to extradite Joseph Smith in, in connection with that, and it becomes a huge trial and, and eventually Joseph is successful. He's not extradited to Missouri, where they would have certainly executed him. But this is where the Context of documents makes a big deal. There just was no possible way for Joseph Smith to have been in Alexandria. So what does that mean? What is this? This, Is this some kind of blatant forgery? My guess is, now, again, I couldn't examine the paper, but my guess is that it's not. My guess is that given the fact that Joseph Smith is one of the most common names in 19th century America, that this Joseph Smith really did live in the area of Alexandria and he happened to know someone named Samuel Smith. Relative, we don't know, brother, I don't know. And he's writing just a mundane letter. But that means that someone somewhere else along the line found this mundane letter. And without any real attempt to verify whether or not it was from Joseph saw the words Joseph saw the word Samuel and saw dollar signs. I don't know where that happened along the way, but it certainly looked to me. And again, I didn't get to examine it. So maybe this isn't the case. I don't know if, you know, the Joseph Smith of Alexandria's family is listening and they're very angry. It certainly looked like the signature on the back, which was obviously later was someone attempting to mimic Joseph Smith's standard signature, because it wasn't the same as the Joseph Smith signature on the front page of the document. And so someone somewhere either was incredibly reckless and careless, but I just have a hard time believing that. I mean, look, this letter is written in Alexandria, Virginia to someone living in Randolph County, Virginia. I doubt that someone in Utah is just, you know, happens to have it right. Most likely someone somewhere, and again, decades ago saw that it said Joseph Smith saw dollar signs, and they passed it off as a Joseph Smith document, perhaps even adding the signature that made it look more like it was his, the signature on the back. And it's sad because, you know, this was being passed through the family as a letter that Joseph Smith wrote. A Joseph Smith did write it, but not the Joseph Smith. You know, there are a lot of people named Richard. Not all of them are, you know, Richard Nixon.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Some are, some are, but not, not all of them. And, and so it was a great example of how we need to be careful when it comes to things like this. I am not an expert in the sense of, you know, proving forgeries. I mean, we did get that kind of training at the church history library and what to look for and things like that. But before the undertaking of the church history project, the Joseph Smith papers, it would have been much more difficult to know the entire calendar of all of Joseph dismissed documents. And, you know, this. This sister, she was. She was. She's like, I just want to know. I. I actually didn't. I myself, I thought it seemed odd, you know, but I needed to tell my grandma. And I'm like, well, okay, well, grandma's gonna find out. I don't know what the result of that conversation is, but she thought it was authentic because she had got it from someone who she authentically trusted. And my guess is that person really did believe it was from Joseph Smith. They had no reason not to believe that. This leads me to the other thing that I found in my office when I went to go meet with her, and that is I had received a letter. And this is going to be the last part. I think we're going to name this episode what, Richard, are we going to name it Forgeries?

[A]

Fallacies in Football? Something along those line.

[B]

Fallacies, Fallacy and Football Ball. I don't know if that signature was deliberately forged on the back or whether someone just happened to write it very similar to Joseph's name while they were filing it. It's hard to believe that it was innocent, but, hey, things happen.

[A]

So just as a quick aside to your point, on the dead horses. So at a relatively high endurance horse can go 100 miles in a day, but that's pretty rare. It's going to be 20 to 40 miles per day. That a horse could average 40 miles at a moderate clip takes about four hours. So if you have six horses a day, that you're going from one horse to the next horse, just riding in straight into the ground.

[B]

Not sleeping yourself. No, no.

[A]

So if you did six horses a day times four days, you could go the 903 miles to get to where you are. So you're going to need roughly 25 to 30 straight horses and then four. Four days. No sleep. No sleep. But so possible.

[B]

No. Yeah. I mean, that would be impossible, basically. So I. There was a letter that was there on my. My desk addressed to Garrett Dirkmot. Richard liked to point out the fact that while most of our listeners spell either my first or last name wrong, Often deliberately.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Sometimes innocently.

[A]

Yes. In fact, normally innocently.

[B]

We actually had. We received a great review of the podcast the other day where someone was just raving about how much they love the podcast. But.

[A]

But. So they. They talked about how they have some sarcastic children and that we reminded them of their sarcastic children and how much they love Garrett and his scholarship and that they've also grown to love John, which.

[B]

Which explains the Success. If we fool enough people into believing that Richard is John, by the way.

[A]

Well, how much better would this podcast be?

[B]

First of all, so much fun. If I was Hank and you were John.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. They should do a podcast like that. That'd be a great podcast.

[B]

But I. This letter, it. It doesn't say who it's from. There's no return address. And so I open it up, and this is what it says inside. This is the fallacies part. There's no name, no signature. All it says in giant letters is, you can't possibly think it's anything but fraud and lies. No signature? No.

[A]

Love, your mother.

[B]

Yeah, wouldn't that be hilarious? Love, Renee. Renee, why would you send this to me?

[A]

She's not talking about the church. She's talking about your life.

[B]

Yeah, she's talking about. About your commitment to Christmas dinner. And, you know, I. I saw that, and I would love to say that my reaction was that, you know, like, huh, you know, and I am just enough of a mortal, meaning a terribly fallen, horrible one. And often my first reaction is anger. And I don't know why that is. Well, Garrett, I mean, tried hard in my life to. To make myself a different person. I'm just so bad at it, Garrett.

[A]

I mean, you've shown it to me, and I'm like, yeah, it's a pretty natural reaction to be. Because your life and the church are. They're the same. It's your job, it's your life. It's everything. And so when a person attacks specifically in that way, they're not just attacking the church, they're attacking everything that you do and believe and you hold.

[B]

That's the thing that. It's all fraud and lies. I mean, you couldn't possibly believe that. You know, I mean, the first thought I had after I was like, who do you think you are? Was how much time did this person take? I don't know if, you know, it's not like, super easy to find my office mailing address. No, to. To take the time to look it up, to find it, get a stamp, write that out. And yet at the same time, to be so cowardly that you don't put your name on it, that you don't put your. Your signature of belief. A few weeks ago, and I almost shared this on the podcast, maybe I still will. We'll see what our fans have to say if they want us to share it. Maybe I will. There was a. A Christian minister who contacted me because one of his relatives was a. Lived in Utah For a time. He eventually left the church and apostatized. But there are some letters of his. And this guy sent me an email in relation to the Brigham Young papers website and saying that he was looking for this letter and he couldn't find it and he wanted it. And, you know, was very kind of. He was a bit abrupt in his. He hadn't read how to Win Friends and Influence People. Or maybe he had read it and decided, Mormons don't count. I'm not gonna. I don't care if I influence them. So I very graciously. I found what he was looking for. I spent some time. I sent it to him, and I said, here you are. Here's the letter you're thinking about. Here's some other letters that he wrote. I hope this helps, you know. You know, thank you for. You know, I just tried to be kind. And I didn't get an email back. And I thought, well, it's kind of a little rude, but at least you're not sending me anonymous emails telling me that all I believe is fraud and lies. And then I did get an email, which was clearly an email that was a fax that had been printed off, and then someone else had scanned it in for him. Apparently, this guy's not very good with technology, so he. He'd fax something that obviously I didn't get that he then printed off and then had someone else scan it and then send me the scan.

[A]

What year does he think this is?

[B]

I'm not sure, but this is what he said. You know, he's like. Basically he's really upset because he believes his great great grandfather has been slandered because his. His wife divorces him, and he believes that it's all based upon lies that the grandmother said and that she told all these lies and divorced him. And then he went on this rant about how for a time, my great, great grandfather was deluded by the false teachings of the Adam God theory and the other things that Brigham Young was teaching at the time. And it caused him to convert in England and move to Utah. And I wanted to. I still haven't. I should still reply. But he wouldn't get it because I'd have to, like, fax it.

[A]

You sent a carrier pigeon?

[B]

Yeah, if I. Maybe if I traveled. He. He's in. He's in. He's in Wyoming. So, I mean, we could go.

[A]

Oh, let's. Cody.

[B]

Where's Gillette? I think it's Rock Springs.

[A]

Oh, not three hours.

[B]

Yeah, we could go. I mean, now that you are officially a cowboy.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I feel like you would be more.

[A]

At home in the cowboys I'm welcomed by. They're my people now.

[B]

Even though a different. Different kind of cowboy.

[A]

Yeah, like a real one.

[B]

Well, I mean, the Wyoming cowboys.

[A]

Yes. No, I know. We have real cowboys.

[B]

So he just went on this rant, and it was interesting because he. He clearly considered himself an expert on this. I had just very kindly helped him and asked him if there was anything else I could do, and he just went on a rant against my religion. And the things he said were ridiculously stupid. No, your great, great grandfather did not convert in England in 1850 because someone was teaching the Adam God theory to him. No, that's not why. I know you don't want to say the words, my grandfather believed in the Book of Mormon because. Because that would mean that maybe your grandfather believed in the Book of Mormon. Instead, you picked the most salacious points you could pick to and said, oh, yeah, that's what converted him. Like, missionaries were running around England saying, hey, move to Utah. And it could be like three, four wise men. It's all about polygamy. Come on in. The other thing that I found is that he was so angry and so upset that he was certain that this woman had falsely divorced his. His. His grandfather, and that it was all Brigham Young conspiring to do it. So I looked up the records, and I found the record of their divorce, and he was the one that had initiated the divorce, and it was at his behest. So here's a great example. This guy has a family history that is demonstrably false. There's an actual record that actually says who initiated the divorce and when. But his family history is that she demanded a divorce from him, went to Brigham Young, and got it, because that's the kind of thing that Brigham Young does, even though the actual records say that he asked for it, and there he is in the court records demanding it. Right. And. And this guy believes that doctrines were being taught before they were being taught. He believes that it was all part of this attempt to both justify his grandfather, but also attack the church, which was weird because it was really attacking me, even though I was the person trying to help him. And I thought. Made me think about that with this. Maybe we'll share that letter at some point, But I don't know. It seems. I'm pretty sure he doesn't listen to the podcast.

[A]

I'm fairly confident.

[B]

But when this person sent this letter saying, you couldn't possibly believe it's Anything but fraud and lies. First of all, only one of us has the courage to put their name behind their convictions, and it ain't you, Captain Anonymous Letter Writer. If it's something you really feel strongly enough to write a letter about it, maybe you want to actually put your name behind it. Because I put my name behind what I believe and what I research every single day, every single podcast, every single thing I publish every single day. But the idea that because you don't believe the whole thing must be fraud and lies. I saw someone post on X the other day that it's clearly obvious that Joseph Smith was a con man. We have the court records that show that he was convicted. I'd love to see those court records since I'm working on Joseph Smith legal papers, those court records that don't exist. But it's interesting how people will, through hyperbole, claim things because they want them to be true. In that sense, football forgeries and fallacies. Fallacies are. They're all emotional things where people end up acting in a way that they probably wouldn't act otherwise. I go every single day of my life, never once yelling at another human being. My son takes three charges in a row at a basketball game, and I'm a. Come on. I mean. And next thing you know, I'm yelling at the. At the referee. This person clearly despises the church so much. And I don't know, some relative or friend or family member said, oh, I listen to this podcast, I guess. Or maybe they're one of our listeners that are like, I'm so tired of hearing about Richard's dissertation. I've turned.

[A]

It was before Julie sent the email. She sent you that letter?

[B]

Yeah, she sent the letter. Here you go. I don't know who that is. You must not think there's anything but frauds and lies. But I want to publicly state I really believe. And unlike whoever wrote the anonymous letter. Now, look, I get all kinds of hate mail. I. It's normally not in actual letters, but I've gotten those before. It's not the first time. I know that it makes people feel better to believe that. That I'm just playing along, that it's just a charade, because then you wouldn't have to explain why someone who has a PhD in history from the University of Colorado and has been published in multiple secular venues, non religious, non Latter Day Saint venues, why they so strongly believe that Joseph Smith really was a prophet and spoke to God, rather than deal with the fact that I actually believe it has to be I'm just lying about it. It couldn't possibly be in the little world that that person has, that someone has belief. That's part of the reason why I thought I'd share this. I am not the best person. I clearly have anger issues that arise at times when people are attacking Joseph or the church. But I am certain that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I know that in spite of my academic training, because I've had the Holy Spirit tell me that someone who wants to belittle your testimony by claiming you don't even actually believe the things you're saying. They are the ones engaged in fallacy. Because it would be far easier to dismiss the argument of someone you disagree with by just claiming that they're a liar. They don't actually believe the things they're saying. But I believe part of the reason why we do this podcast isn't just to tell people about, you know, the. The spread on. On college bowl games coming up, but it's so that I can lend my voice to the voice of millions of people all around the world, and especially to reinforce the tens of thousands of voices of men and women who came before us, who gave up everything because they really believed. And like us, they were not perfect. They made mistakes. They believe things that ended up not being accurate, but they demonstrated their devotion to God with their sacrifice and their time. I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And I hope that when you listen to this podcast, you know that for all the things you may dislike about me and they are legion, that is a sincere and honest belief and I am grateful for it. The only reason I know who Jesus is is because Joseph Smith talked to him. So I thought I would share that with you. And don't worry, we'll do some more hardcore history next week. Thanks so much for joining us.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Standard.

[B]

Of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot.

[A]

If you know anybody that could benefit.

[B]

From the material in this episode, please share it with them. And for more resources, visit standardoftruth.com until next time.