S5E21 Worship Services and the Omnipotence of God

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: Episode S5E21 – “Worship Services and the Omnipotence of God”

Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Dr. Richard Leduc
Release Date: May 15, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode S5E21 of the Standard of Truth podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve into the intricacies of early Latter-Day Saint worship services and explore profound theological questions surrounding the omnipotence of God. This episode not only examines historical practices but also contrasts them with contemporary Christian traditions, providing listeners with a nuanced understanding of church inclusivity and divine power.

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Christie's Corner: Last-Minute Lesson Prep (00:01 – 05:36)

The episode opens with the hosts engaging in light-hearted banter about "Christie's Corner," a segment intended for last-minute lesson preparation. Dr. Dirkmaat humorously reflects on the challenges of preparing lessons under pressure, highlighting the collaborative yet teasing dynamic between the hosts.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Richard Leduc (01:47): "Christie stepped up to the plate like a hero sacrament meeting with a day before Easter Sunday sacrament meeting."

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Doctrine and Covenants Section 46: Open Worship Services (05:36 – 23:23)

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) Section 46, which outlines the conduct of worship meetings in the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Key Points:

• Inclusivity of Worship Meetings: Unlike many early Protestant denominations that practiced closed communion, LDS sacrament meetings were designed to be open to all, including non-members and even those who had been excommunicated for disruptive behavior.

  Dr. Dirkmaat (06:15): "Anyone's allowed to attend. Anyone. Even someone who's an apostate."

• Contrast with Contemporary Practices: The hosts compare this inclusivity with the "closed communion" practices of early Congregationalist, Presbyterian, and Baptist churches, where participation in the Lord's Supper was restricted to full members in good standing.

  Dr. Dirkmaat (08:51): "Now look, someone's going to say, well, yeah, but someone tried to stand up and start reading things about how Joseph Smith was a false prophet and they made him leave. Look, anyone's allowed attend a meeting."

• Modern Implications: Today's LDS Church continues this tradition of openness, welcoming all who wish to attend sacrament meetings, provided they do not disrupt the service.

  Dr. Leduc (23:23): "It's the opposite of exclusionary in that regard."

Notable Quote:

Dr. Dirkmaat (12:45): "Instead of saying, 'Hey, you're not allowed here,' we're saying, 'You're welcome to be here as long as you're not disrupting.'"

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Audience Engagement: Emails and Community Stories (23:23 – 37:17)

The hosts transition to reading listener emails, which range from personal anecdotes about flag-making efforts to humorous discussions about sports predictions. This segment underscores the community aspect of the podcast, fostering a sense of connection between the hosts and their audience.

Key Highlights:

• Flag-Making Initiative: An email from a listener named Elder Crumb details a mission-related project of creating the Deseret flag, showcasing the dedication and creativity within the LDS community.

  Dr. Leduc (34:30): "This was a great sacrifice because obviously we could have spent the weekend hanging out with girls."

• Sports Predictions: Light-hearted banter about NBA teams reveals the hosts' personalities and ability to balance serious theological discussions with everyday topics.

  Dr. Dirkmaat (29:10): "If you go to a doctrine cover, section 46, it's talking about how meetings, worship meetings are to be conducted in the church."

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The Omnipotence of God: LDS vs. Traditional Christianity (37:17 – 65:17)

The core theological discussion explores the concept of God's omnipotence, contrasting LDS teachings with traditional Christian doctrines.

Key Points:

• Creation from Existing Matter vs. Ex Nihilo: The hosts discuss the LDS belief that God organized existing materials to create the world, as opposed to the traditional Christian doctrine of creation ex nihilo (creation out of nothing).

  Dr. Dirkmaat (40:27): "But if you say he created us out of nothing, you still have to deal with the problem of why does anything exist at all?"

• Limits of Divine Power: Dr. Dirkmaat critically examines traditional Christian claims of God's absolute omnipotence by highlighting statements that suggest there are things God cannot do, such as making humans exactly like Him.

  Dr. Dirkmaat (41:54): "If you say no, then God is not all powerful. And so you have to say he could."

• LDS Perspective on Divine Potential: The conversation further delves into LDS beliefs about humans' potential to become like God, referencing Joseph Smith's teachings and the King Follett Discourse.

  Dr. Dirkmaat (58:04): "There's at least one thing that God can't create, and that is intelligence."

Notable Quote:

Dr. Dirkmaat (45:06): "The first miracle is why does anything exist at all?"

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Conclusion and Reflections (65:10 – End)

As the episode wraps up, the hosts reflect on the theological discussions and express gratitude towards their listeners. While they mention the possibility of future segments and interactions with their audience, they emphasize the importance of understanding the LDS perspective on worship and divine power.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Dirkmaat (65:17): "Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast... Until next time."

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Takeaways

• Inclusivity in Early LDS Worship: The LDS Church's open approach to worship meetings contrasts sharply with the closed communion practices of early Protestant denominations, emphasizing a welcoming stance towards all individuals.

• Theological Distinctions: The episode highlights significant theological differences between LDS beliefs and traditional Christian doctrines, particularly concerning the nature of God's omnipotence and the process of creation.

• Community Engagement: Through listener emails and personal anecdotes, the hosts foster a strong connection with their audience, blending humor with deep theological insights.

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This episode offers a comprehensive exploration of how early LDS worship practices were intentionally inclusive and provides a critical examination of the concept of divine omnipotence from an LDS theological standpoint. Whether you're a seasoned listener or new to the Standard of Truth podcast, this episode provides valuable insights into the history and beliefs of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor. Foreign. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. Here we are reeling from some poorly placed odds on who would be the next Pope. But I AM your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by the. Well, really the creator of the lines and the person who said who he thought the next pope was going to be, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thank you, Garrett. I believe that we called that almost exactly. Thanks for having me back. Speaking of things coming back, we just want to jump right in to Christie's corner. I got to tell you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. Wow. I believe I told you I never wanted to do it again.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You don't want to do this podcast. You haven't wanted to do any tours. You haven't wanted to do anything. And so why would that stop?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So let's jump right into to the corner.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Christie's Corner. Last minute lesson prep. Now, in fairness, in fairness to Christie, it was a. It was. It wasn't a. It wasn't lesson. It was a talk. And it was. Somebody bowed out and she had. Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Someone bailed. Christie stepped up to the plate like a hero sacrament meeting with. Like a day before Easter Sunday sacrament meeting. Right, right, right. And we mocked her. I think that's where we were at. Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You. You provided her with potential content about standing in holy places. And I mocked her.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So we need Christy to email us to let us know whether or not she used any of our content in her sacrament meeting talk. And Christy, we're going to need you to lie. We know you didn't use any of it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it's terrible.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But we need you to tell the listeners that you did. In order for Christie's corner to exist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I doubt she wants it. The backwards are. Was. Was very popular. That was my. That was yours. And so I believe It's Doctrine Covenants 46 through 48. Garrett.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What quick hit do you have to make someone sound smart in their Sunday school class this week?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So the entire point of this part isn't actually to build up someone's testimony. This is just so someone can smugly act like they know more than other people in class.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what I don't feel like you understand LDS podcasting at all.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Actually, okay, all right. So the entire point is what genre.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Exists so that I can sound smart in my Sunday school class?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's true. It's true. We get a lot of emails from people who really want to know things about Revelations, right up until we already talked about them in church. Then they could not care less.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, hey, I was wondering if you have anything on Doctrine and covenants section, section 36, and then if you don't answer immediately, like, the next week, no, I don't care anymore. We already talked about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Not a member anymore. You lost your kids?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I had my name removed from the records because you didn't tell me about Dr. Section 36. Well, here's something that's probably. I mean, super boring, and that's the. Those are the best comments to make in class. So maybe you can pair this comment with a trip that you took that has nothing to do with the lesson, but I feel like you could always find a way. You could. There's always a way to work a trip you took into something. A comment you make in class, a.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Trip you took, or a race that you ran. Oh, yeah, yeah, those.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Perhaps bicycles.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, sure. Yes. Or bicycled. Yes, those are always popular to be able to work those in.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So what's the super boring topic?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I assume, let's go to doctrine section 46. And I like to point out things that we pass over when we're reading. You know, like. Like there's blood on the door and on the lintels and the door post. We. We pass over things when we reading them because we think that they are normal and natural and everyone believes them. And so sometimes I feel like people are not energized and excited about the Doctrine and Covenants because, A, they're listening to anything that we have to say, but B, and even more important, because they don't realize how radical the text is that they're reading because it seems so obvious to them that they just read it and they go, of course that. Why would anyone. I mean. Oh, okay, maybe we're. We got. We all have a chance to be saved. Got it. What an amazing thing I just read, you know, I mean, like, I don't know that everyone's reading the Doctrine Covenants that flippantly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I was gonna say, who's so sarcastically reading.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I guarantee you Clay is that sarcastic.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Friend of the show Clay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I guarantee Clay is like, oh, so are we a bunch of Calvinists here? I guarantee that's a good Clay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's a good impression of Clay, that's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Exactly how he sounds. If you go to a doctrine cover, section 46, it's talking about how meetings, worship meetings are to be conducted in the church. Now, again, this is brand new church. This is just as though the entirety of the New York church has shown up in Ohio. And so, you know, it wasn't really a big question about who we're going to let attend our meetings in Fayette because it was like four people. And it was like, hey, how come there's only four people? Oh, because Christian Whitmer had to go out of town. Oh, okay. You know what I mean? Like, there were hardly any members when the church was founded. And I'm being facetious, they are going to get up to around 100. But the church doubles and then triples in size because of the members in Ohio. So suddenly you have a huge influx, not just of people who knew Joseph Smith personally, but of people who've been baptized by the various missionary efforts. And there. And then all the New York people are moving there at the same time. And so you have a huge influx in the number of people that are showing up to worship services. And they are not all personally known to Joseph. So verse two says, notwithstanding those things which are written, it always has been given to the elders of my church from the beginning and ever shall be, to conduct all meetings as they are directed and guided by the Holy Spirit. Okay, everyone's on board that. Verse 3. Nevertheless, ye are commanded never to cast anyone out from your public meetings which are held before the world. Okay, so first of all, when we have a public worship service, anyone's allowed to attend. Anyone. Even someone who's an apostate. Anyone's allowed to attend. What about someone who's been excommunicated for fornication? Anyone's allowed to attend. So, you know, the visitor's welcome sign really should be an all welcome sign that our worship services are open to anyone. Now look, someone's going to say, well, yeah, but someone, you know, tried to stand up and start reading things about how Joseph Smith was a false prophet and they made him leave. Look, anyone's allowed attend a meeting. You aren't allowed to go to someone's private worship service and disrupt the meeting. That. That's. That's not what you're being allowed to do. You're being allowed to attend. That's not the same thing as you holding your own, you know, TikTok reel of attacking the church while you're. While you're at church. Okay, so. But you are also Commanded to not cast anyone out who belongeth to the Church out of your sacrament meetings. Now here you're thinking, wait a minute. What's our public meetings? What's our sacrament meetings to us? When we go and worship, we always think of them. We even call them sacrament meetings. This is actually how the terminology comes up, sacrament meeting. But really what we're talking about is a meeting in which the Lord's Supper is administered. Okay? A meeting in which the Lord's Supper is administered. Well, for our church, we are going to eventually come to always, at every worship service, administer the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. That is not common among Protestant denominations. It's not coming among Protestant denominations today. And it was even less common among Protestant denominations then. Okay? So a meeting in which the Lord's Supper was administered was considered a special meeting over and above and away from your regular worship service. Okay? So that's an important distinction to understand. So you're not supposed to cast out anyone who belongs to the church out of your sacrament meetings. Nevertheless, if they've trespassed, let him not partake until he makes reconciliation. Now, I guess let me keep going and then we'll switch to the Bible. And again, I say unto you that you shall not cast anyone out of your sacrament meetings who are earnestly seeking the kingdom. I speak this concerning those who are not of the Church. So this is. This again. You. You've probably read this. I don't know how many times you've read the Doctrine and Covenants once. However many times you've read doctrine covenant, section 46, you've read verse five, and at best, probably you've said, oh, you know, yeah, we do have our sacramentings open to everybody. But what you don't realize is that that is not the standard in 1830America. Okay, there are two things here that are not standard. First, that all of our worship services are open to everyone. Especially Protestant churches in the Presbyterian tradition have what is called a closed communion, meaning you are only allowed to take the sacrament and participate in their Lord's Supper meetings if you are a member of the church, if you've been baptized, if you're a member. And in the 1830s, now they're thinking, well, wait, I went to a Presbyterian church last week, and they didn't do this. Yeah, things have changed a little bit in Presbyterianism in the last 200 years. But this concept is called closed communion, meaning you aren't allowed to participate in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. And that's where our sacrament meeting Gets its name, Sacrament of the Lord's Supper. Unless you are a member, unless you are deemed to be worthy by the pastor. And so those meetings were closed to non members. So early on, of course you're going to have a question from people about whether or not people should all have the ability. Now the other thing is that they would hold meetings to perform confirmations. That's the next verse that you see there in these confirmation meetings, which, you know, we've done confirmation in all kinds of different ways of the church. It's changed like 18 times since I've been a member. I mean, there was that whole period on my mission where you were supposed to confirm someone in sacrament meeting. Do you remember that period?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah, yeah, sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I don't know how long it lasted. And someone will email with something they pulled off of ChatGPT saying that they know how long it was, but it was for a few years. There was also a brief time where you were not to confirm someone immediately that they were supposed to attend church once or twice. And then you can. Do you remember that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, so I actually had a situation where that. Where we found a person in good old. Where was that? It was Palm Desert, California, where they had. She had been baptized years ago and never had been confirmed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And you can see why that becomes kind of a problem, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Quite.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, it's actually akin. And now we've gone far afield from Christie's Corner. Now we're on Garrett's soapbox. I don't know what we're at now. This is supposed to be two minutes and we're already at like, I don't know, 50. I mean, what? I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Should I just stop? No, this is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, you hit on something, you know, mildly interesting. Let's go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Cares about at all. Yeah, well, in the early Congregationalist church. Okay, maybe. Maybe we should just stop. Why?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what? I knew. I knew. I knew I should have encouraged you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I knew it told me to keep going and so I did.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The next thing out of your mouth was in the early Congregationalist church.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The Congregationalist church, by the way, is the church of Puritanism. So if you've heard of Puritans, these are. Now, today they are a little bit more watery in their doctrine. But in the early days of America, Congregationalists were hardcore Calvinists. Okay, so they are the people who believe the Church of England, which is technically Calvinist, it is reformed in its nature by its confessions. They believe the church of England held too much of the trappings of the papacy and Rome and wanted it reformed. So these people are radical Protestants who saw the Anglican Church as not being radical enough. Now, interestingly enough, the Catholic Church sees the Anglican Church as being quite radical.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You don't say. You don't say.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's very. What's a radical to one person is, you know, the meat and potatoes to the Congregationalists. They're like, they're not nearly radical enough. And so these are people who believe God chose them to save them, that it's very much predestination theology, that you need to live a certain way because you've made a covenant with God. And so one of the things that happened in the early days of America is people weren't supposed to be joining the church until they had a personal spiritual witness that they had been given the gift of faith. And therefore that meant that they were predestined to be saved. Well, what happened? Well, you. They. They would have people growing up in the church whose parents were believers, but they themselves hadn't ever had that same spiritual witness. Well, how do you keep track of your members that way? So they came up with something called the halfway covenant, where someone was admitted as a member, but not a full member of the church while they were in their growing up years, basically. And then after they had that spiritual witness that they had in fact been chosen to be saved by God, then they could become a full member. But it led to all kinds of problems. Right. Well, is Bill a member? No, he's only a halfway member. His parents were Covenant members and he hasn't had his awakening. Right. So how you become a member is really a question. And then more so, then who gets to take the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, which is very holy? Again, it doesn't save anybody, but it's something that they believe is holy that Jesus commanded you to do. And why do they care? Well, because they care a lot about what Paul has to say. And Paul, First Corinthians, chapter 11 says, Wherefore whosoever. This is verse 11, sorry, chapter 11, verse 27. Whosoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily shall be guilty of the body and the blood of our Lord of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread and drink of that cup. For for he eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. Okay, so this idea that Only righteous people should. Righteous believers should take of the Lord's Supper is something that Protestants have to figure out what to do with. Because look, they're the ones saying it doesn't matter what tradition says. It's word for word what the Bible says. Now, interestingly enough, they're coming out of a Catholic tradition, right, in which communion is also closed, that you are not given communion unless you are a member and a member in good standing of the Catholic Church. That's who gets to partake of the sacrament of the Lord's Supper. Are you a member of the Catholic Church? Yes. And then if you're worthy, then you can take it. And so there's various arguments about this, but so the Congregationalist church generally, now you can always find exceptions, generally had a closed communion. You could not participate in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper or in that meeting if you weren't already a member of that church, the Presbyterian Church, which is also a hardcore Calvinist church back then. I know today it's not, but back then it was hardcore Calvinist church. Similarly, it was a closed communion church. You could attend some meetings as, as an investigator or as we would call them, a friend today, although they would not. They would have said it must be one of those people who's going to burn it at hell because they don't have the. They didn't have the grace of Jesus given to them by God. These meetings were closed, meaning that you could not attend if you were not a member in good standing. Several Baptist churches, now Baptist churches, what signifies them is they can choose their theology however they want. But most Baptist churches at the time practice closed communion. Again, this is not something that any member of the church today has ever even thought about. Because unless you've spent a lot of time going to other Christian religions, and even if you have, most Protestant denominations are very watery on their closed communion now, like they're not checking your membership status at the door. They might say, hey, you shouldn't take this unless it's. Unless you're a member, unless you're a believer. But it's a watery status. So for these early church members, this is a question. We've got all kinds of people investigating the church. Do we let them come to our weekly worship services if they're not members? First of all, yes. Well, yeah, but what about our sacrament meetings? What about when we're sure they can come to some kind of Bible study? But what about our most holy sacrament meetings where we take of the bread and the wine in the remembrance of the Lord. Can they come to that, to everyone reading Section 46? They think, well, yeah, of course they can. But you only think, yeah, of course they can. Because that has always been normal to you. It wasn't normal to almost anyone who had converted to the church in 1830 and 1831. They would have all been coming out of. Not all. I mean, there would have been. There are some random denominations that had more open communion, but the vast majority of them would have been coming out of denominations for which their membership meetings were restricted based upon membership if you were a member, and especially those that included the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, verse 6 of 46. And again, I say to you concerning your confirmation meetings that if there be any that are not of the church that are earnestly seeking after the kingdom, ye shall not cast them out. It's such an odd thing that today other people view Latter Day Saints as being very closed off from the rest of the world. Like they extrapolate out of our temple worship, that we don't let anyone attend any of our meetings, that we've got it all secret and all closed off. And it's actually the exact opposite. The Christian who's criticizing you for that most likely comes from a religious faith tradition that at one time or possibly still does, bar people from attending meetings in which the Lord sacrament of the Lord's Supper is given. Because. Because that's what their tradition is. Whereas ours from the very beginning has been everyone who's serious about being here can be here. What about people who are sinners? They can be here. What about people who don't believe they can be here? What about people who've been excommunicated from the church? Have you ever thought about the fact that. That we allow excommunicated members of the church to attend our weekly worship services?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I will tell you, some of the most spiritual experiences in my life have been with excommunicated members of the church who are coming back to the church. It is the atonement in action. It is a beautiful, beautiful thing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it's the opposite of exclusionary in that regard. Now look in today's day and age membership and how someone is a member of a church is much more watery than it was in the 19th century, where pastors are much more happy just to have someone in a seat than they are about trying to exclude somebody.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I had a good friend of mine in Tennessee, she was Nazarene, but she joined a Baptist church because they had a daycare that she really liked and she's like, you know, it's a lot of the same stuff. So we're good. I'm like, yeah, I'm sure it's wonderful.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sure. Yep. I'm guessing it was a free will Baptist rather than a reformed Baptist because.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know, we didn't get into that as much as we talked about the daycare. So I don't know, I don't know what they're teaching to their, their 18 month and 2 year olds.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But I feel like that if you have a child that's very unruly in daycare, then you come away going, this child was never chosen by God to be saved.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's. Yeah, they have that, you know, they're, they're drawing that and then coloring it in like, I'm not saved because I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Feel like that's the same way it is with, you know, with Latter Day Saints with who are serving in nursery only. We don't believe in predestination, so we're just, we're just saying it, but we don't believe in it. Right. So we're like, you know what, Obviously that dirkmot kid was never intended for salvation. We believe that he can choose later. Not the Dirkmaat kid. He's out. I know we don't believe in original sin, but now we do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Now we do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Anyway. So that's a takeaway is that from the very beginning the Lord designed our worship services so that anyone who wasn't being disruptive, I'm going to get like emails from people like, well, there was someone who stood up in church and said that they thought the church was wrong for telling people to get vaccinated and they asked him to sit down. It's like, I am well aware that there are people that have been asked to leave, but they're not asked to leave because they're sitting there. Okay. People are asked to leave or at least stop talking when they are disrupting the worship service. And it is a beautiful thing that excommunicated members, non members, non believers, everyone's welcome to be at our sacrament meetings. And that was designed by the Lord from the very beginning. Now that Christie's Corner turned into Christie's Giant cruise around the Equator.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That was great though. That was a great. I love when you come across a verse that, to your point of this is this is the least. Of course, this is a. Why is this even here? And, and then it has that greater context. Now I'm gonna take this time to, to plug the tour because there's no other way to Shoehorn it in. And we have, we have the. You. You signed up to do you and Angie to take a second tour, the two of you, to Palmyra and Kirtland in 2026. And that. That is almost also sold out, which is very exciting. Now I take a week off of work, one one of those Palmyra tours, and I go around with you. But this one, this one will be special because it's you and Angie and it'll be way more fun because Angie's way nicer than I am.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Certainly nicer than you. I mean, I just did 20 minutes of a corner. I didn't want to do 25 minutes, bro.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, so now there are many things in the. In the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. Now what would you like next? We've kind of queued a couple of these things up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like we need to. We need to give a shout out to Elder Crumb and his. His sewing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, I'll. Let me read. Let me read that one. Dear doctors Dirkmot and Leduc, my friends and I were listening to your most recent episode and were inspired by your story on the flag of the church. Although it was a little hard to focus because we were laughing so much at your baby resuscitation jokes, which.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What were we making jokes about?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That you made a comment about me laughing at an inopportune time about perhaps.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We had a doctor write in who said, my wife isn't in labor, but I frequently resuscitate infants because he works in the. He's in the emergency room nicu.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I don't know why, but I smiled or laughed at something else that I was obviously. I was obviously watching the Knicks or something.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they will make you smile and laugh.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I hate the next. It's crazy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're about to beat the Celtics.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I know, by the way. So guess. By the way, we did get receiving an email. We're not gonna have time to. From. From acquaintance of the show, Sherry and her son, who's 13, who listens to the show because he likes the sports take. So I feel like there's is a bit of a break. Who do you think. Who do you think is number one likely to win the NBA championship right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now at this precise moment?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. As well as of. As of something this 11am this afternoon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Can I say something radical?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The Minnesota Timberwolves.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Minnesota. Minnesota Timberwolves are number three. So you have. You have Oklahoma City Thunder, but they're.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Struggling so much against Denver. I don't even know that they're Going to be Denver.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like, he. He's a loaf of bread. That's the best center in the history of the league.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He looks like he should be fixing my, like, my pipes, you know, that broke like that. He would show up and I'd be like, yeah, the leak is somewhere underneath the sink. And he would be like, it's good. He's good. He's got to fix it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He looks like the guy on the episode of Seinfeld that gives Jerry the free cable, you know?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He does look like that. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He looks like every Eastern European you've ever seen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, if I found out that that Nikola Jokic smoked six or seven packs a day.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

A day.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I would be like, yeah, I'm sure he does.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, yeah. Did he not have a full carton?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, right. He'd been cutting back for Lent.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so Oklahoma city is number one by a lot. So they're minus 105. And what that means is that if you were to walk into a den of iniquity at a sports book and you were to put down, you'd have to do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because you would be a sinner.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You would never do that. But at minus 105.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Don't do it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Don't do it. You'd have to bet $105 to win a hundred dollars, which means that they are a pretty significant favorite. New York Knicks at plus 500, meaning you bet $100, you win 500. Minnesota Timberwolves plus 550. They're third. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So. So here's the thing. The Cavs are out there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's funny. So probably bad money right now is that the Cavs are. We're fifth. I don't know that that would necessarily be the wisest bet.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The Cavs had an epic, epic collapse and lost today. So they're out. So it's the Pacers. And I mean, if Jayson Tatum's actually hurt, like, which it sure looks like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He is really hurt, and the Knicks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Are going to win, then it's going to be the Pacers and the Knicks. Well, do I think the Pacers and the Knicks. Look, obviously, any of these teams that are left could win it because, you know, Oklahoma City just has not shown a great level of toughness. Well, they either have it. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They either lose by five or win by 50.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right. Which is great. It's great to win by 50.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. That's my understanding of winning.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But, you know, it's kind of like what happened to the Celtics. I mean, how many times are you going to lose On a last second shot. Yeah, it's going to happen if you, if you lose mental toughness. Well, right now, as we're recording this very second with a minute left to go in the first half, the Nuggets are head by seven. So what happens if they go up three, two in that series?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, there you go. It's very exciting. So. Yes. Don't put your, don't put your money on anything because you shouldn't gamble.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But don't put them on. The Cleveland Cavaliers, which ESPN at 11 o' clock today, had them at fifth.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sherry was worried that she would no longer be considered a friend of the show. We're not exactly sure why she's done nothing to us. I think it's just because she's. She's emailed us before.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We've read her emails before. She met us at the live event and you weren't that excited to meet her.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, that's not true. Did we invent a corner named after her that I then had to do against my will?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Sherry's berries.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That. They're a real thing. I know, but Sherry. So if. If Sherry wasn't friend of the show anymore, what would she be like? Sherry Drive by Acquaintance of the show. Sherry, who's a who one time turned the show on and couldn't find the knob to turn it off as quickly as she wanted to. Of the show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Cousin once removed roommate Sherry of the show.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, whatever the equivalent of an MTC district leader is for Sherry. That, that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, that's very good. We're not going to have time to get to it, which is too bad. But we did get a tremendous email. Maybe we can read it later from. From almost Elder Shoker about getting access to the. The content so that he can become.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it shocker or Shocker? Looks more like shocker.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

S C H O K K E R Shocker. Shocker. He's. He's. He's an Aussie. He wants me to. To apologize for what I said about Vegemite. I will never do that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How could we apologize? I mean, what are we going to say? Like. No, it's amazing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's. It's salmon eggs that taste like sweaty feet. What are you talking about?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah. We love Australians. I mean.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, we love Australia.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

One of our greatest trips was going there and all we do is talk about how badly we want to go back.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Yeah. Is it Wendy not acquaintance of the show. Friend of the show is a seminary teacher there. We gave her access so that she can, you know, she doesn't need it, though, because of the. The. The Christie corner that you do now every episode.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In the last. I'm never doing it again. In the last minute, the Thunder closed the gap. Now they're only down by two.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's the thing. The Thunder now winning by 20. Okay, what are we talking about? My friends and I decided that we would make it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Elder Crumb.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is it Elder Crumb? Are we. We're not entirely sure who this email comes from. There are pictures involved in this email.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And pictures are great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The picture is taken in front of what I believe to be the Gilbert, Arizona temple. Is that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I believe it's an LDS temple. We do.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I know it's an LDS temple, but it's the Gilbert Temple.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they are standing there holding a flag. And there is a story behind the flag, which Richard's going to tell. Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My friends and I decided that we would make the Deseret flag and take pictures with it during our mission flag photo shoot at the temple. So, yeah, to your point, these are friends about to. They likely all of their calls and they're. They're heading out. Too bad the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission doesn't have a flag. We spent our entire weekend making this flag.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There's no way this is true, right? There's a bunch of 18 year olds that got together to create a flag.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know. This sounds like something my. A couple of my sons would do. Like, they get this, like, hey, let's make this flag. And then they learn to see the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Picture of the flag. And their moms obviously made it if it's a homemade flag because it's way too well done.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

First of all, shout out to Joanne's fabrics and their 180% off discounts this weekend. It's tragic. Speaking of flags, Becky's running ours at half mast for the loss of Joanne's fabrics.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Becky actually bought their cutting table, so she looted them like it was a riot and took it home with her forever.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, it was. We bought the fabric, cut the fabric, tried to. Tried to sew the fabric failed, learned how to sew, then sewed the flag together. This was a great sacrifice because obviously we could have spent the weekend hanging out with girls.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

First of all, if you're a listener of the podcast. No, you weren't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. If you're listening to this podcast and you're 18 and getting ready to go, you don't have a girlfriend, it's okay. Quit bad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Because of the loyal Littners, we are very cool and not lonely, lonely men. That's very funny. Taking our sacrifice into account, it would be incredible or incredibly amazing if you could give a shout out to Elder Crumb, another Elder Crumb, Elder Andreasen, Elder Anderson, Elder Roberts, and Elder Martineau. And some guy named Mack. If our ex.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Just some guy, some Methodist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's also your friend in Gilbert.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Possibly, I guess.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, if our exploits weren't enough to earn a coveted shout out on the show, I was going to ask a blatantly false question about John C. Bennett to get Garrett's daughter dander up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But I couldn't push, you know, the button to push. So John C. Bennett was like, totally. Like a truth teller. Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

One question I do have is related to your refutation of creation ex nihilio. I understand that our idea of creation ex materia helps us answer philosophical questions about God, including the problem of evil. Something I know the people of rural Argentina will appreciate as much as the people of Wisconsin appreciate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Apparently, he's going to Argentina.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The King. Yes, the King Follett discourse. Argentina. One of my top 10 countries. Top 10 favorite countries. But one question related to this is, if God cannot create matter, is he all powerful? Geez, that's a heavy question. Additionally, how does our understanding of God fit within perfect beings theology? That is a. That is a heavy question. Genre.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I feel like you are about to quote the King Fallet sermon on your first doorstep. I feel like that's where Elder Crumbs at it. Someone's gonna be like, so what do you guys think about baptism? And he's gonna be like, well, do you believe that he's just gonna go right into like, you believe that God exists from all eternity? Who told you that? I will open up the Bible and refute that idea. He just starts quoting it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, the problem is, if he's going to Argentina, he'd be like, padre celestial.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, he would be very, very halting and very bad Spanish. So I don't like the fact that you are typecasting him. You think just because he's a poor flag seamstress that he is terrible at learning Spanish.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My favorite. Look, there's a lot of things about Latter Day Saint culture that I absolutely love that I find endearing, and I find it sweet, and I love it. And one of my favorite things in the entire world is, is missionaries that go to the MTC and they study a foreign language. And before they go on there, before they go to the mtc, they study that foreign language and they take it very seriously as they want to share the restored gospel of Jesus Christ with the world. And then they get dropped in that country and they're like, what is everybody speaking? I can't understand anything anyone is saying.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And, and they're given, like a. A companion who's a native. Oh, so. So the native was. It was hilarious. Native companion doesn't speak English at all.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And this person's trying to figure out Mandarin Chinese.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, dude.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they're just, you know, they're struggling. They're struggling, my brother.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like, so people that serve in Korea or in Japan or China, you know, Hong Kong, they're like, yeah, I kind of figured it out 18 months in.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it was, it was one transfer away when I finally realized what that guy had cursed me with when I first reached his doorstep.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so this is a really good question. I mean, we've addressed it in various ways. So here's what's interesting. If you talk to a traditional Christian now, and I'm talking a theologian, I'm not talking about some. I'm not talking about just Bill the adulterer. Well, no, most Christians aren't. Well, I guess, depending on your definition of adultery. I mean, in America, I guess many Christians do at least fornicate, given the fact that it's like 98% of people live together before they get married in America now. But. And heck, 2% of the country's Latter Day Saints, and we're not even batting a thousand. So obviously there's some issues there. But if you talk to someone who understands their Protestant Christian theology, they will say that God is absolutely all powerful, that God's omnipotence is unquestioned. And yet here is the thing that every single Protestant theologian will admit to, especially when they're talking to a Latter Day Saint. There is one thing that they will say God can't do. And what do you think that one thing is, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Make you like him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You can't make you like him. Now, for a Latter Day Saint who understands yourself as a child of God, as someone who lived with God in the eternity's past before you came to Earth. Earth, this is a very difficult thing to come to terms with because if he's my father, of course I can become like him.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So this is actually funny. We got some. Some new missionaries in our. In our stake, and they're great, great young men. And I, they needed a ride home and I took them home and we pulled into their driveway and I found myself saying the aseity of God. And I'm like, oh, what Have I done what? What have I done?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they looked at you like, so brother leduc believes in false doctrine.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, it really took. And they're like, okay, we just needed a ride home. You know, we just needed a ride.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thanks. We'll, we'll ask some of our non member friends next time for a ride. But, but this idea, it, it's standard across essentially all Christians that God created us out of nothing. God created us ex nihoo. And so, you know, for those who were wanting to understand this elder's question, the standard Christian belief across Catholic and Protestant denominations is that in the beginning nothing existed except God. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. And when you say, when they say, well, wait a minute, what about Jesus? How can Jesus be the son of God if he's the only begotten of the Father? Their understanding of the Trinity is that Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father. So there was never a time that Jesus was not begotten of the Father. And so in that way, Jesus and God are eternal and part of forming that trinity as well as the Holy Spirit. So for a Christian, every single thing that exists was created at some point out of nothing by God. And you know, you can even find Christian, you know, astronomers and scientists and things like that who will say, well, what do you think the Big Bang was? That was God creating everything out of nothing. You know, I mean, that this, there is something that scientists don't have the ability to explain and that is this question, why does anything exist at all? So a scientist can tell you all about the creation of the universe, the expansion of the universe, you know, and then they can get into evolution and how people eventually evolved on this Earth from, you know, proteins that ended up vibrating and that vibration became a heartbeat. I mean, look, the initial creation of life is still a pretty difficult thing to explain and it has to be a theory because there is no demonstration of inert materials becoming living organisms.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

One of my favorite kind of debate points on this is all of this science is great and it shows and it proves everything and it shows everything. But you just, you got to give me just one miracle. I do need one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. The first miracle is why does anything exist at all? Right? So, so for all of the, you know, Big Bang, you know, this and, and, and expansion that, you still have to deal with the problem of matter existed, right? So no, all the matter was, was coalesced into this tight ball. And, and I'm not, look, maybe that's how God decided to create the universe. I'm not, I'm not saying one way or the other, but even if you say the origin of the universe was all of the matter tightly compacted into a ball and exploding, you still are missing step one. And that is get the matter and mix it into a ball until it gets so dense that it explodes, right? So similarly for, for a Christian, however, their argument is nothing existed. Time and space did not exist. This is the reason why Calvinist theologians trended towards predestined salvation and the perseverance of the saints in their theology. It's kind of like not really recognizing the total sovereignty of God to say that God existed for eternity, eventually created space and time and matter and everything and this world and us, but just didn't foresee the fact that Adam and Eve would eat the fruit, condemn all of mankind to being destroyed. And you know, he just, oh man, I wish I could have a mulligan on Adam and Eve. Wish it could be like, you know, you know, Johnny and, and Jill instead of Adam and Eve. Maybe they won't eat the fruit, maybe everything won't be destroyed. And so the only logical conclusion you can come to is that everything happened exactly the way that God intended it to happen. And that is a very difficult thing for people to come to terms with because we want to believe that we affect how things happen. We want to believe that our agencies inviolate, especially if you're a Latter Day Saint. And for a Calvinist or a reformed Christian they are looking at, look, is God all powerful or is God not all powerful? Asking it another way, could God change the outcome of any situation that God decided to change the outcome of. If you say no, then God is not all powerful. And so you have to say he could. And that means if God could and the outcomes that we have is almost everyone burning in hell, then that has to be what God intends. To say otherwise is to say that God doesn't have the power to do what he wants to do. Now back to, you know, the Elder's question. Since we believe in creation from already existing materials and this comes from Joseph Smith, that God organized. You also get this from the book of Abraham that God took of existing materials and organized the world. And you get from Doctrine and Covenant Section 93 the expansion of the account of John where in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Doctrine, covenant, section 93 says ye were also in the beginning with God. So our natures are fundamentally different. Now back to the larger question, which is, well, if God created everything out of material, if God couldn't do that, then does that mean that God's really all powerful? And that's the reason why I caveated this discussion from the very beginning with the fact that a Christian will tell you that God is absolutely all powerful and literally in the next breath tell you God cannot make you like him. God can't. And you'll be like, well, I guess God's not all powerful. And their argument would be the reason why God can't do that is God is self existent. God has always existed. Nothing caused God to come into existence. And so even if God gave all of his power to you, which of course he wouldn't, but let's say that he did, even if he made you like him right now in a very fundamental way, you would not actually be like him because God can't make you always have been God. And the definition of God, that aseity of God that Richard's talking about is the self existence of God. Sure, God can make me whatever kind of archangel he wants to make me, he can give me all kinds of Moses power, He can do whatever he wants, but he wouldn't be able to make me always have existed because he created me. Right? So before you get too hung up on the fact of what I'm about to say, which is sometimes very troubling for Latter Day Saints to hear Christians themselves who believe in the absolute omnipotence of God, admit that there's at least one thing that God can't do. And they admit it pretty regularly when they're condemning us to hell for our false doctrines. But doctrine And Covenant Section 93 doesn't just say that we were in the beginning with God. It says something even more profound and frankly more radical when it comes to the Christian world. And that is that there is at least one thing that God can't create. And that is astounding. It is God saying it. This is the voice of the Lord saying it. Right? And first of all telling us, I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name and in due time receive of his fullness. Verse 27. And no man receive with the fullness unless he keeps his commandments. So you have to, you have to do things to receive the fullness. Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence or the light of truth was not created or made. Okay, so that's already beyond any Christian belief. Christians believe that literally everything that exists was created by God. Even time and space, everything. You name a word, it was created by God. In the beginning, nothing existed but God. And then he created time and space and matter. And then eventually people, this is saying first of all that intelligence was not created. Okay, so there's already something that was not created. So that's already. If that's where the verse ended, we would already be the greatest blasphemers of all blasphemers. But the verse continues, neither indeed can be. So here is a declaration from the Lord in a revelation of the prophet Joseph that there's at least one thing that God can't do. Apparently he can't create intelligence. And I think it's because the nature of intelligence is that it has always existed. So. So in a very odd way, it's like reverse argument of a city, which. Richard, the next time you grab those missionaries, you tell us, hey, guys, once you open up, DNC93, let's talk about where God can't create intelligence because it's always existed. So he can't create something that its very nature of is that it always existed. I mean, you could extrapolate out. I know among Latter Day Saint theologians, some feel more comfortable with this than others. I mean, you'll find Latter Day Saint theologians who will say things like, no, God is absolutely all powerful. But then they'll say things like, there's just certain laws that even God has to follow. Okay, I. Well, you've already. You've missed the boat on what the term all powerful means to a Christian. They don't mean that God's all powerful, but there's laws he has to follow. They mean that God can literally do anything we believe. When we say God is all powerful, we believe it. But much like when we talk about hell, we are talking about what actually exists. So will people go to hell? Yes. Is hell a place of permanent suffering? It's not. So. So if your definition of hell is wrong, then you're going to have a wrong belief about it. Similarly, if you define omnipotent as God literally has the ability to literally do anything, which again, a Christian will actually readily deny, God doesn't have the ability to make you exactly like him, then there's an issue. But Latter Day Saints believe that God has all of the power that actually exists. There are some powers that do not appear to actually exist. And this kind of goes along with your second question about becoming a perfect being. Well, if the Lord Jesus came to this earth and passed through a veil and he had to learn grace for grace until he received of a fullness. Then we are already claiming something that no other Christian claims. We are claiming that we have to become. Even the Lord Jesus had to become. And as Joseph teaches in the King Follett sermon, which we'll cover someday, but no we won't. Even our heavenly Father was once a man that became and that's that. The theology that's so condemned by anti Mormons and and movies are made about it. And you think you can become like God? They think that our belief that we can become like God is us exalting the human. How dare you as a mere creation believe that you could be anything like this perfect immortal God. And in truth, the way a Latter Day Saint actually sees it as in glory to God. I don't think that I can become like God because I'm anything like God. I'm obviously nothing like God. I'm obviously a flawed, horrible sinner who will absolutely have to have the atonement of Christ in order to have any hope of ever becoming like God. Which by the way, at least according to Latter Day Saint theology, we seem to think that the atonement isn't just how God decided to save us, but it's the only way that we can be saved. This is not God set a rule and it's hey, you've got to accept Jesus if you want to have your sins forgiven. It's how we can, as sinners have our sins washed away because of the sacrifice of Christ. If I were to say, can you have your sins forgiven you without the atonement of Christ? I think most Latter Day Saints would say, well no, you can't. There is no other way to have your sins forgiven outside of Jesus. And so if that's true, if that's a true statement, when we make it, we're already saying the words that God is not all powerful. We're saying that the atonement is not just how God decides to do it. It's the only way that your sins can be forgiven. So you know, as Truman Madsen, our spiritual forebearer, who was about 45,000 times smarter and better at this than we are, as he said in discussing this, you know, I'm not anxious to make a long list of things that God can't do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's one of my favorite quotes in all of timeless question gospel insights.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I met his daughter, by the way, the other day. Yeah, so we'd met Barney, his son and we, you know, we've hung out with him a few times. We're that cool. But I met his daughter, she came to my, my women's conference and so it was great to meet her. And obviously they, like I said, we don't even have the ability to unlatch true advance and shoe latch it when it comes to things. But that is one of the. Look, I don't want to make a laundry list of things that God can't do, but we have to at least take on face value what the Lord himself declares in Doctrine and covenant section 93, that God can't create intelligence. And so there's at least one thing that's different. Is there something that exists that, that God can't create? And the Lord says, yes, intelligence. No Christian would accept that idea. No Christian would say that there's any material thing that God that exists that God couldn't create. And, and I think this is, you know, DNC 93 doctrine section 76, the King Follett sermon. Joseph's other teachings, what they really, the real reason why they're so radical is they demonstrate that one of the most important things is for you to understand who you are, what the purpose of this life is. And while our fellow brothers and sisters, or Christians, absolutely believe in following God, they absolutely believe that salvation comes through Jesus. They are doing marvelous things in the world. Part of what they've lost is an understanding of who we are and that we're the same type of being that God is. And that's hard even for some Latter Day Saints to come to terms with. With, I am nothing like God. I know you're nothing like God right now, but there was a time when you ran together and clapped for joy at the idea of coming to earth. There was a time when billions of your spiritual brothers and sisters rebelled against the Father and tried to follow after Satan's plan, which involved a mortality in which there would be no learning and there would be, I'm guessing, no suffering, and there would be no difficulty. And every one of you listening is someone who, in that moment, in that time before, stood up and said, I stand with the Father and I stand with the Son. You don't remember it. That time is covered by the veil. But you chose Jesus. Long before you were ever born in this earth, long before your physical body was ever created, you chose Jesus as your Savior and you chose to come to this earth so that you could become. Knowing that it would be a terrible process, knowing that it would take years and years, and knowing that the only way that you would be able to escape this horribly fallen, sinful self was through the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus, who through the greatest miracle of all miracles, would somehow take upon him all of our sins and all of our pains and all of our sicknesses, and somehow, through his sacrifice, through his suffering and death on the cross, make it so that we could have our pains, our sins, our sicknesses, our doubts taken from us. I don't believe that our theology lessens God. I don't believe it lessens the Savior. In fact, it means that God is so much greater than even others think that he is, that there is a purpose to this earth. It's not just because we suffer. It's not just to show the justice of God by sending billions of people to hell. It's not just so that people can struggle, so that they can turn to God in their struggles. This world was created to bring to pass the immortality and the eternal life of man. So that, being its purpose, we then can approach questions like this about who God is and who we are and how we can become like him in a very different way. And I know it's radical. I know our Christian brothers and sisters don't accept it, and they see it as blasphemy. And that's why it's great to have modern living prophets. Praise to the man Joseph Smith, who communed with Jehovah to tell us who Jehovah even was. Praise to him to tell us who we even are. And I think as you prepare to go on your missions, maybe making several more flags in the process, taking with you who God is, who you are, and what the purpose of this world is and the purpose of your life is, are some of the most important truths that have ever been received by anyone. So thank you so much for joining us. I'm sorry, we received so, so many emails. We're literally getting hundreds of emails a week. And I. I legitimately can barely read them, let alone.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We got a couple really long ones. One great one from an attorney that was incredible. Just, just. Yeah, there's just no way to get to them all. But anyway, they're. They're tremendous. Thank you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And maybe someday we will. But also, you know what happens whenever we say we will do something?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Christie's Corner is going to sneak up and get you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, we're not going to do Christie's Corner anymore, so maybe we'll have more time to answer questions. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.