S5E30 Bad Sources and the Quorum of the Twelve Part 2

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast Summary
Episode: S5E30 Bad Sources and the Quorum of the Twelve Part 2
Release Date: July 17, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode S5E30 of the "Standard of Truth" podcast, hosts Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve deeper into the contentious issues surrounding the historical integrity of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the practice of polygamy within the early Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). This episode continues the discussion from the previous installment, addressing claims made against key church figures and doctrines.

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Banter and the Dander Meter

The episode opens with the hosts engaging in light-hearted banter about their ongoing debates and the implementation of a humorous Dander Meter to quantify their frustration levels.

• Dr. Richard Leduc (00:45): "We have implemented the Garrett Dander Meter. The last episode it was at 11."
• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (01:10): "It's out of 10. So you're saying I was completely unhinged and throwing furniture around the room."

This playful exchange sets the tone for their candid and spirited discussion.

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Christy's Corner: Doctrine and Revisions

Christy's Corner serves as a recurring segment where the hosts provide insights into doctrinal topics, aimed at helping listeners enhance their understanding and presentation of church teachings.

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (02:23): "The entire point of Christie's Corner is if you want to look smart in Sunday school."

In this episode, the discussion centers around Doctrine and Covenants (D&C) Section 80, a revelation given to Stephen Burnett addressing apostasy and policing church integrity.

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (04:16): "Section 80 is a revelation to Stephen Burnett. And the revelation tells him to go and preach the gospel wherever he should."

They explore Burnett's eventual apostasy in 1838, critiquing his claims against church leadership and his misrepresentation of witness testimonies regarding the Book of Mormon plates.

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Listener Mailbag: Support from Overseas

The hosts interact with listener emails, sharing heartfelt messages that highlight the podcast's impact.

• Email from Cynthia, Djibouti, Africa (14:24): Cynthia expresses gratitude for the podcast's role in strengthening her faith amidst personal challenges, particularly her husband's opposition to the church.

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (24:44): "Cynthia, what a beautiful email. I am very sorry to hear about the situation."

This emotional segment underscores the podcast's mission to support Latter-Day Saints facing difficulties in their faith journey.

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Main Discussion: Debunking False Claims in LDS History

The core of the episode focuses on debunking misleading and unfounded claims about the LDS Church's history, particularly those related to the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the early practice of polygamy.

Analysis of Stephen Burnett's Letter

Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc examine a letter purportedly from Stephen Burnett, which alleges misconduct and apostasy within church leadership.

• Dr. Dirkmaat (05:53): "He writes, this is again April of 1838. My heart is sickened within me... Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are notorious liars."

The hosts scrutinize Burnett's credibility, highlighting inconsistencies and lack of verifiable sources supporting his accusations.

Refuting Allegations of Brigham Young's Adulterous Practices

The discussion turns to Brigham Young's alleged adulterous behavior, as claimed in historical criticisms.

• Dr. Dirkmaat (35:30): "It's in multiple journals. This further... he's making that claim... clearly can't be very old at the time that this took place."

They methodically dismantle these allegations by referencing authentic journals and historical records that affirm Brigham Young's integrity and adherence to church doctrines.

Addressing Claims about Cochraneites and Polygamy

The hosts tackle the erroneous connection between the Cochranites—a separate religious group—and the practice of polygamy within the LDS Church.

• Dr. Dirkmaat (41:07): "They'Re making, they say here, like, oh, it was based off the Cochraneites in Massachusetts, except everywhere you're talking about that they're going on their missions is actually Maine, not Massachusetts."

By clarifying geographical inaccuracies and separated historical contexts, they refute the unfounded link between the two groups.

Examination of Changing Church Name and Priesthood Authority

A significant portion of the debate addresses the claim that the LDS Church lost its Melchizedek priesthood and that the name change from Church of Christ to Church of the Latter-day Saints signifies a doctrinal fall.

• Dr. Dirkmaat (48:49): "Why is this person saying Brigham Young never had any authority because of some weird explanation of the church falling after the Isaac Morley meeting in 1831 flies in the face of actual documents."

Through meticulous examination of church records, including the Joseph Smith Papers, the hosts demonstrate that authoritative actions, such as priesthood ordinations and doctrinal changes, were consistently managed by Joseph Smith and subsequent leaders without indication of apostasy or doctrinal deviation.

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Conclusion

As the episode wraps up, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc reaffirm the importance of relying on credible historical sources and personal revelation to discern truth amidst false narratives.

• Dr. Dirkmaat (73:12): "Thank you so much for listening. I promise we'll never talk about plural marriage even tangentially ever again."

They emphasize that while debates over historical accuracy can be contentious, maintaining faith and utilizing the Holy Spirit are paramount in navigating challenges to LDS beliefs.

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Key Takeaways

• Credibility of Sources: Many anti-LDS claims lack verifiable, contemporary sources and often stem from biased individuals or groups.

• Historical Integrity of Church Leaders: Authentic historical records uphold the integrity and divine calling of leaders like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

• Doctrine and Covenants: Recent additions to the D&C are scrutinized and defended as authentic revelations, countering claims of later fabrications.

• Support for Members: Listener emails highlight the podcast's role in strengthening faith among members facing personal and doctrinal challenges.

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Notable Quotes

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (05:53):
  "Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are notorious liars."

• Dr. Richard Leduc (35:30):
  "I feel like you could go to lighthouse ministries and get that information."

• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (73:12):
  "Thank you so much for listening. I promise we'll never talk about plural marriage even tangentially ever again."

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This episode serves as a robust defense of LDS history and leadership against unfounded and historically inaccurate claims, providing listeners with well-researched arguments and affirming their faith through knowledge and spiritual conviction.

Transcript

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

Foreign Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. This is an exciting part two.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

And means I lost. It means I lost the argument over whether or not we should continue responding to last week's email.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We have implemented the Garrett Dander Meter. The last episode it was at 11.

What's it out of 100?

It's out of 10.

Okay, so you're saying I was completely unhinged and throwing furniture around the room.

I was afraid for my safety and the safety of my children.

We weren't even at your house.

No, I know. You're an hour and away for an hour and away. An hour and away.

The Litners know how many Yoohoos away was I?

I'll do a quick search, but I believe at least an hour and a half.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Okay, how many?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What did you ask Jeeves?

I'm gonna ask Jeeves how an hour and away. But no. We are excited to get back into Bad Sources and the quorum of the 12 part 2. But before that, Garrett, it is time for Christy's Corner.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

When you wanna look smart in Sunday school if you want your friends to think you're cool when you wan wise and not a fool, it's Christy's Corner.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know one of our emails that we are going to read, the person asked for a good Christie's Corner this week, but it was a week ago they sent the email. So even in our Christie's Cornering, we are failing to deliver what it is that people want.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

So we're essentially, we're providing no service to anyone. I don't know why I'm going to choose doctrine covenant, section 80. But hey, the entire point of Christie's Corner is if you want to look smart in Sunday school. Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But you're really pushing the listeners to the limits here because 80, it's 77 through 80.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I need them to wave down the teacher.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So. But you've got a. You have a Relief Society, Elders Quorum. That was where you gave 76, now we're giving 80. There's no way my sister is gonna have to raise her hand. She's have to sit in the front, raise her hand immediately, and say, I have a comment on section 8.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

You raise your hand, and the teacher says, did anyone have a chance to read the lesson this week straight up? And you don't even raise your hand. You just start talking.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So that. That really is the right. It's like getting on a subway in Beijing.

You don't shower it.

You just go push in.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Well, there's no room. Just keep pushing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Sure enough, you find that's it. All right, so section 80. I thought that I would spend time on. This is more of a. I think this is kind of a hate one. So maybe the dander meter is already percolating.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's on a. In fairness, it's on a scale of 1 to 10. I feel like you're right. I feel like it should be on a larger scale. It's like we're on kilometers.

We need to be on centimeters. Well, I feel like I will say it's 60 degrees Fahrenheit, but you're saying it's Celsius. That's what I'm. Yeah.

Kelvin.

Yeah, it's on the kelvin scale.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Section 80 is a revelation to Stephen Burnett. And the revelation tells him to go and preach the gospel wherever he should. And verse five says, behold, this is the will of him who hath called you your redeemer, even Jesus Christ. So why do I want to spend any time on this? It's a very brief revelation because I want to give you a little bit of backstory on Stephen Burnett. We've actually referenced him multiple times on the podcast because he is the one who is going to apostatize in 1838. No longer remembering that he received the words of the Lord through Joseph Smith, he instead is not just going to apostatize. He is going to try to convince other people to leave the church as well. The letter that he's going to write is the thing that we've spent time on before in the church. He writes a letter to Lyman Johnson, who's one of his friends. He writes, this is again April of 1838. My heart is sickened within me when I reflect upon the manner in which we, with many of this church, have been led and the losses which we have sustained, all by the means of two men in whom we had placed implicit confidence. Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon are notorious liars. And I do not hesitate to affirm and can prove by a cloud of witnesses.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I Will say, first of all, on Sidney. Just. Just hold out a minute.

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Okay, so City Reagan's not lying yet, but it's coming. It's coming. It's coming for you. But so. So here's the claim that he's making, pretty stark claim against Joseph Smith. But how do we know that Stephen Burnett is not being a. He's not being a. An honest broker? Because this is the letter in which he will claim this. I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination, neither Oliver nor David. And also that the eight witnesses never saw them and hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it. The last pedestal gave way, in my view. Our foundations was sapped and the entire superstructure fell. It was in a heap of ruins. This is the person who's going to claim that he heard Martin Harris say that he never saw the plates, that Oliver Cowdery never saw the plates, and that David Whitmer also never saw the plates, and that the eight witnesses, who include Hyrum Smith and Joseph Smith Sr. All said that they never saw the plates. Now, that's in pretty stark contrast to all of the witnesses all affirming all throughout their lives that they in fact saw the plates. But sometimes Stephen Burnett's letter will be. Will be bandied about by people saying, yeah, yeah, Martin Harris said that he never even saw him. Well, clearly this is not a very accurate letter. If he did hear someone say that, he couldn't possibly have been accurate in his hearing, because none of these witnesses themselves ever deny that they saw the plates. And some of them, like Hiram Page, will actually later expand upon what they said they saw. Hiram Page will say that not only did he have the eight witness experience where he lifted the plates and looked at them, but he will say that an angel will appear to him as well. So far from denying that they ever saw the plates, they actually are going to reiterate that they saw the plates. So as you read section 80, maybe what you can think is, here's a great example of someone who was favored enough by the Lord that the Lord is speaking directly to him through a revelation. Very few people get that opportunity. And yet he still fell and becomes this raging apostate trying to take other people out of the church with him when he goes. So that's my Christie's Corner. Not very uplifting.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, it's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

But maybe it's where we're at this week.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's an interesting thing to bring Up. And if my sister ever hopes to be the Stake Relief Society president, you got to get in the front, raise your hand, and read part of Stephen Burnett's letter.

Yeah, yeah. And you don't even read the revelation. You just start reading his apostate letter.

You hear that, sis?

That's what you got to do. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Be careful how you do it. You probably don't want to raise your.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hand and say, well, Martin Harris said that he never saw the place. You probably need to be very clear about what the allegations are.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

That's what I would guess.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Don't lead off in testimony. Meeting with that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, Garrett, in the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag, we start off with an email from a missionary. Sister Merrick, I'd love to be able to say I've been a listener since the beginning. Well, first of all, Sister, you would have been 15 or 16.

The beginning of what?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

The beginning of time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'd love to say I've been a beginner or a listener from the beginning, but I'm ashamed to say I only found your podcast a year ago. Since then, I've gone back to listen to as many of the early episodes as I can to discover where the lore was written, such as Rachel's mum Littner's, and the genesis of Richard's career as a bookie and so forth. That's funny. I often listen while working out and find myself shaking with laughter as I attempt to do a push up. I wanted to let you know that even though I started listening while home in Australia, I have since left to go on my mission to the Adriatic north, just in case you noticed your litnership or your listenership in Australia take a sudden hit. Yes. We've gone from two. We've gone from you and Wendy to one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Well, that's because of the whole Magpies or deal.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I. I thought that they would have a better year.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

No, you.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You alienated Collings with mad Magpies.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

You alienated Wendy's husband. I did. Greatly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

It was like you said, I don't even want Wendy's husband to listen.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's almost as though, while listeners in Croatia have had an unexplained spike, I know how important crunching the numbers can be. It sure is. For our advertising dollars. It's very important.

All the ads we're putting out.

So this is the thing we're hoping to do a spot with a local McDonald's in Zagreb, Croatia. We think that we've gotten. I've been there. I had a lettuce wrap And I feel like. I feel like there's a great opportunity for us there in Zagreb. I doubt I'm pronouncing that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

There's no possible.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I just wanted to thank you for the joy you provide me. Your self deprecating humor is very much appreciated by this Australian. And I hope to be listening for many years to come, perhaps even one day listening to the polygamy episodes with my grandchildren. Your grandchildren's grandchildren's grandchildren.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I'm going to have to teach my.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Son to be a historian and then have him get a PhD and then have him do season 38, I would say.

None of my children are interested in business.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

So you know what?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. They want to be actually successful, like attorneys and engineers and the like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

If you'd ever, like, want to have jobs, my kids are like, I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, like, you're just going to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Keep paying for stuff, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

The life of a historian or the career of a historian. You know what? I'm going to fund my entire family in perpetuity.

Well, if only you knew the smog, like, treasure that I lay upon each night as I. As I hoard my gold coins from all of my filthy lucre.

If you'd ever like to give a devotional to our mission via Zoom, we would absolutely love to have you. I'm sure all of your missionaries, all of our missionaries and your missionaries and all of the missionaries would be thrilled to learn about rice tariffs.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Sounds like they're asking you to give a fireside to their mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, they must have. Well, so it's, it's dear doctors dirkmod and leduc.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Yeah, well, I'll let you take that one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what? I think that the, that the spiritual thought that I gave at a zone conference in the Layton zone of the Layton Mission has spread to Croatia and Australia. And, yeah, the people cry out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

We found out that a dear friend of ours was an MTC district leader, and we're still trying to figure out what to do with that information.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what's funny is that we were sent a picture of a mail key when we found out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Yeah, it was very funny. Sent a picture of a mail key.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And said, I held the keys.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

And, you know, it's, it's real.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're making. It's causing us to reevaluate everything we know about Brian. I mean, now I'm like, well, maybe, maybe, maybe Brian's not the guy I thought he was. He seemed like a great guy, but now I know he was the MTC District leader.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so is it reverence or. Because it's obviously with. With great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I. I feel like Brian expects me.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

To give him greater reference now. That's what I feel.

It is true. All of the questions that we receive by email, we now just copy and text and say, brian, is it okay.

If we say that? Can we. Can we read it and then he lets us know?

Yes. This next email comes to us from Rob, the only true and living history of Yoohoo. I can't believe I'm actually sending this email, as I am not currently pregnant, nor am I at any risk of ever emailing you while in labor. I am always struck when the elements of my life collide, as they did today. I'm a regular listener to the podcast. As a bishop, I find it a good source for sarcastic humor and epic rants. Well, you're gonna love this episode, Rob.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I've got to stop. We can't do any more. I can't have people emailing in about.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I love the rants.

No. So here's the thing. And I've tried to articulate this before.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Let's just do townships again.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We do have to get back to townships at some point. What was funny? Actually, so my nephews were. Were in town this last week or I guess a couple weeks ago or a month. I don't know. I saw them within the last year.

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Yeah. And you don't even have nephews.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And so one. The one going on a mission to Independence, Missouri, French speaking, which is a lot of fun. That's Ben. And I found out that. That my nephew Jack is actually a littner. He called himself a littner, which that's how you know. And he's going to BYU Hawaii. Anyway, so shout out to Jack. Anyway, as we were discussing sundry matters and various issues, the topic of tariffs and rice tariffs did come up. Two of my children in the living room said, all right, I'm out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Stood up and left.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My children hate me so much.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Well, none of my kids listen to this podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. But they actively go out of their way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

So they're like taking out ads on.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Facebook saying, don't listen to the Standard Truth podcast.

Yeah, like Annika and Titus. Don't say, hey, Dad, I didn't listen today. My kids go out of my way, out of their way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Hey, did you speak out of my.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Way, out of their way. Out of all of the ways.

Well, there are epic rants.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I don't. I don't know that I like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, no, no. So I caused a Tangent there myself, but. But essentially, though, I've had many people, and by that I mean no one's told me this. I just believe it myself that on my mission, I was attacked all the time, right? Every day. All the time. Every day. And many of the listeners to the podcast have either been attacked or are being attacked or have family members that have been attacked, and they. They say things, especially CS later. It's a classic, right, where we're going to kind of lean into aspects of, you know, there are similarities, you know, to this email that we're going to get back into, but where a person says a thing and it just feels like it's garbage, Feels like it's. But they don't. They don't have the knowledge or they've never heard of it or this or that. And so at least in the moment as they're being attacked, they don't have a way to do anything other than to bear a testimony, which is what you're supposed to do anyway. But then they hear you get on and say, I will not. And then you just, You. You give it to somebody that isn't going to listen anyway, and people stand up, you know, sick in the back of a wagon.

And they shout, hurrah for Israel.

Everyone does. And so I know that you wish you were more like Jesus. We all do. But since you're not, I.

So just lean into it. Well, you're really bad at this. Keep doing that.

Kidding aside, I have talked with lots of people about this, and it's like, yeah, I wish I knew these things, to be able to say these things in the defense of the thing that they hold the most sacred. And so, yeah, sure, sometimes your dander's up, but sometimes people like it, so there you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Well, sounds like Rob likes it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, Rob seems to.

So I'm trying to rant more in my sacrament meeting talks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Thanks for the great examples. See, this is exactly what can't happen.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so, yeah, so if you are still reading this email after. Oh, so he does. He sends us a clip to watch, which doesn't lend itself very well for.

No, it's a video clip of Yogi Berra and the Pope endorsing yoohoo, which is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Which is great. But also.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I hope you will give me something really good for Christie's quarter this week. Heaven knows I will. I will need help sounding smart.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

And so we did exactly the best thing, Rob. We gave you an answer a week after.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, but if. But if he's a. If he's a listener all the time. He would have got, you know, he could have done like my sister raised his hand and read for seven minutes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

We needed it last week for the fifth Sunday.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But that's a good point, actually. You did nothing for him there, that's for sure. But.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Sorry, Rob, But.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But the Christie's Corner on. On Doctrine Covenants 80 and Stephen Burnett and.

Yeah, he can.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

He can sound incredibly. Area died.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, quite.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Let me tell you something about the Stephen Burnett fellow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Quite, quite. This next email comes to us from Cynthia from Djibouti, Africa.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

So we have long been attempting to expand our listenership in the Horn of Africa.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm writing you from Djibouti, Africa, a small country in the Horn of Africa. Yes, quite. That's for me, because I don't know. I don't anything about history. I don't anything about geography. It was a very little about anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

It was a French Somaliland, actually, in the 1960s, I believe. French is actually one of their official languages. French and Arabic.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

How about that? And I'm not even a missionary. I actually pay for a subscription to your premium podcast. And you know what, Cynthia? That's why we're reading your email.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Yeah, I didn't know that, but yes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that's why we think that's why Richard's reading it. Yes. My husband is in the foreign service and works for the embassy. So he, my three sons and I called Djibouti home for the past three years. We don't have a ward or even a branch here, but attend church at a generic chapel on a nearby military base where we can partak, partake of the sacrament. That was my impression of some type of a bird.

I think that's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

That's a little rough.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Go ahead.

We're gonna cut this out, though, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Just like everything else.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, cut. And here we go. And sing some hymns. Most of the time, it's usually just our family and one other guy, a contractor named Dave.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Well, Dave, shout out to Dave.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Shout out to Dave, who sometimes is in Japan.

Thanks for coming to church. Sometimes.

Did you ever serve on a military base on your mission?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

No. No, it was Wisconsin.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No military bases, no powerful senators could pull that off.

I feel like the nation was daring Canada, come get us. And start with Wisconsin.

I did. I served in 29 palms, and we would regularly attend services on the Marine base there. My favorite thing was a testimony meeting. There were about maybe 10 Marines that were there and going around and everybody's bearing their testimony because, like, 10 Marines a guy gets up. And he's like, I might mention this before, I love this. And he's like, you know, sometimes the Lord taps you on the shoulder and he taps you on the shoulder and he taps you on the shoulder and then he kicks you in the face. And I'm like, you know what?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Sometimes he needs to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's awesome.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

There are times that I've needed to be kicked in the face.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Kicked in the face. Our time in Djibouti is ending though, so I wanted to take a moment. Thank you for the support you've provided me during our time here. Just to give you a little background and explain why your podcast is so important to me. My husband and I were married in the temple and have raised our kids in the church. However, over the past couple of years my husband has become more and more critical of the church and has actively tried to dissuade my children and I from attending or believing in it. He is constantly texting, emailing, or showing me articles or videos that disparage the church and or Joseph Smith. It has been a challenge trying to raise my kids in the faith while my husband, their father, is actively trying to pull them away from it. And what would be a challenging situation in any household is exacerbated by the fact that I don't have the support system of a ward, church leaders or family nearby to help. I am literally in the middle of a desert in Africa. My sister is the one who introduced me to your podcast. After listening to a few episodes, I felt a sense of hope for my family and hadn't felt since that I hadn't felt since my husband first started down his path. A few people I had spoken with about my problem friends, a church leader when I was home for the summer, always advised me to rely on my testimony and the Spirit to not engage with my husband and to definitely not go down the rabbit hole of church history. When I listened to your podcast, you addressed some of the exact arguments my husband had presented to me and you tackled them head on, using historical facts and documents to make a case against those arguments. You didn't shy away from church history. So I listened to your podcast and started studying church history. More. You said in a podcast once that there are answers to these questions and as I started researching church history more, I discovered that you were right. My testimony was actually has actually been strengthened, not weakened, by the knowledge I have recently gained. So I just wanted to thank you for all that you're doing. Please keep it up. It's not always enough to tell our kids to only rely on their testimonies of the spirit when faced with tough questions and problems. The naysayers can't always know more about our history than we do, or they will continue to misinform and lead away members of the church, including our youth. So thanks to you guys and to the Standard of Truth podcast for providing reasonable, thoughtful, historically based answers that don't replace our faithful testimonies, but reinforce them. With deepest gratitude.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Cynthia, what a beautiful email. And I am very sorry to hear about the situation. I'm very, I'm grateful that the podcast, Richard and I have been able to help in some way and I'm, I'm glad that you have the faith and the fortitude that you, you didn't allow yourself to be easily swayed and that as you studied, you know, more church history or you, you found your testimony increasing rather than decreasing. That is a very, very difficult situation, one that I can't possibly fully comprehend. And I really just pray that our Heavenly Father will give you the strength to maintain your faith and to continue to help your kids as best you can. It really is a difficult thing. I don't know from personal experience. I just know from my multiple interactions with people that are going through similar experiences that it becomes a very difficult thing when the place you looked for, for support becomes a place that is now trying to tear down your faith. And that. I know that that is very difficult. And you know, Cynthia's email is part of the reason why there's a dander meter, I think, because while we joke around a lot and part of that is to help people, you know, want to engage on some of these topics, part of it is just, it's our personalities and, and, and I love life and I love the gospel and I love joking around. I love sarcasm. The gospel, of course, is, is deadly serious. And what the Lord Jesus Christ has done for us and what the Lord Jesus Christ continues to do through his prophets and apostles is very much a reality and a truth. And someday every person will know that Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus and that the revelations he gave were actually revelations from God. And so one of the few balms that you can take away from a difficult situation like that is the sure knowledge that while our individual battles are, you know, kind of in the balance, and we don't really know whether this person will believe or this person will return to the fold in this life, what is not in the balance is the outcome of this war. We already know who wins in the end. The Lord Jesus Christ wins in the End. And the naysayers and the people who are allowing YouTube prophets to tell them what is true and what isn't, they will eventually come to know what we know, and that is that Joseph was a prophet of God and that President Nelson is currently a prophet of God, and that this church is God's true church on earth. I always think it's helpful when you are dealing with this kind of a difficulty to remember the truths that exist only inside of our church. People love to say, well, I'm just asking questions, well, what about this? Or what about that? Did you know that Joseph Smith did this? Did you know, Brigham Young, that I wonder why they're never asking the question, if this church is false, why did God create a world where there is so much suffering? This church is false. Why doesn't God love everyone? Oh, sure, you can say that God loves everyone. You can say those words. But the moment this church stops being true, you live in a world where God created almost everyone out of nothing and gave them an immortal spirit, knowing that they would rise in the agonies of hell forever. And God could have stopped that. He could have decided to not do it, but he did it anyway. So I think a good thing to fall back on is the truths that we do have. We don't have every answer to every question from history. Historians don't have every answer to every question because we don't have any sources for some questions. When did the angel, you know, when did the devil appear to Joseph Smith as an angel of light? When did that happen? I don't know, because Joseph only mentions it one time, doesn't provide a date for it, and we have no other sources that reference it. So as a historian, I can't even tell you when Joseph is saying that that happened. Lots of things we don't have answers for, but we cannot allow the things that we don't have answers for to trump the most important answers. If God is the God that we want to worship, then the teachings and revelations of Joseph Smith must be true. And the moment he stops being a prophet, well, you get to believe that God created billions upon billions. Billions upon billions of people out of nothing. They didn't exist before, and he gave them an immortal spirit, knowing that they would come to this horrible earth where they would suffer in a terrible mortality, which is 99% of people on Earth are going to have a very rough life. And luckily, after they go through that horrible life, they then get to writhe in the agonies of eternal hell forever. And that's what you then get to believe, or you can just believe that God doesn't exist at all, in which case you don't have evidence for that either, and you're back to wondering, why does anything exist at all? And you can say, why believe in science? Yeah, you can say it right up until science doesn't actually explain many of the things. Scientists can't even explain why the universe is expanding faster and faster and faster. They have to invent things like, well, there must be dark matter and dark energy that we can't measure, that we can't prove, that we can't interact with. But it must exist to explain things that I can't explain. So I think that even though you're going through a very difficult situation, I am inspired by your faith and I hope that you will allow the truth that you have to help buoy you up in those difficult interactions.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think that's a. I think it's beautiful sentiment. Now, on with the part two.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Oh, boy. There really shouldn't even have been a part one, and now there's a part two. So if you haven't listened, please go back and listen to part one where we're talking about these claims that were made to one of our listeners by one of their children who were alleging that the church was derailed in its early days by sin and that the Quorum of the twelve Apostles further derailed it and that that later was manifested through spiritual wifery and polygamy. So let's get back to where we were. We talked a little bit about the misunderstanding about whether or not the 12 were present at the Isaac Morley farm. But let's talk more about this. If you recall, this letter claimed that Brigham Young in the later 12 after Joseph died, were not part of the group at the Isaac Morley farm. That's what we talked about last time. They instead decided to be lazy and not seek after the endowments of powers instructed by Joseph prior to their missions. Instead, they discovered spiritual wifery, polygamy, based off the Cochraneites in Massachusetts, were heavily into masonry and devised a plan to infiltrate the church with it while serving missions in England where they were already having affairs with women on their missions. This is documented in multiple journals. So that's what's part of this email. Oh, no. Jill's daughter, you have made the fatal flaw. This is documented in multiple journals. You will notice there is not a citation to a single one of them. And why do you think there isn't a citation to a single one of them? Because it's certainly not documented in any of the quorum of the 12's journals, nor is it documented in any other contemporary journal of the time. The overstatement of sources is part of the way that people attempt to sway people's testimonies by claiming it's there. It's in an original journal. Okay. Which journal? I mean, it's there, though. Like, I know it is because I've read it, and it's like it's in. It's in multiple journals. I mean, they didn't even just say it's in one journal. What if it just said it's in one journal?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's in every journal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

It's in multiple journals.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's not a journal where this isn't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

It's in all the journals in my journal.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's in your journal. Every journal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

It's in my journal.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's in your journal.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Every journal that's ever been a journal. Is there a source that claims that. Yeah, there's a source. From the reorganized church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints from a letter dated August 24, 1891. So 50 years after the events we're talking about, There is someone who happens to be a 70 in the RLDS church, which at the time is leading a national campaign against our church, claiming that it's a false church because it practiced polygamy, who will claim that they witnessed improper conduct on the part of Brigham Young when they were in England and in navu. Oh, should we read that journal? Even though it's a letter written 50 years later, but it's a journal again, I see. If the problem is I'm getting. Yeah, no, you're getting.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Your dander is up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

My dander's up, but my dander's up because they're.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They're saying that.

And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

And look, obviously I. I don't think that your daughter went and researched all this for themselves. They clearly didn't research the June 3rd conference of 1831, because if you would have typed it into the Joseph papers website, it had pulled up, and then all you'd need is a list of the members of the quorum of the twelve apostles, and you'd know that some of them were there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I feel like you could go to lighthouse ministries and get that information.

You probably could. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Gerald and Sandra Tanner, like, look, we're not going to make that argument. This is what the Stafford claimed 50 years later. I'm fully convinced, as I was then, that Brigham Young was an adulterer in Manchester, England, in the fall and winter, in the spring of 1840 and 41. Elizabeth Mayer is the person with whom Brigham was then committing adultery. My reasons are these. We live next door to her and under the same roof. And this Elizabeth Mayor had a father and a brother who were gardeners. And they took their. They took their dinners as they worked a long piece from the home. And after they had left for work, Brigham would step into the house and she would lock the door and pull the blinds and the curtains, which to me was strange. Strange. He never came to see our folks, although not five steps apart. And when he left, he was always in a hurry. And she never came to the door with him when he was leaving. This same thing occurred in Nauvoo with a woman and Brigham. Her name was Greenow, and her son was about my age, and we was always driven out. When Brigham was home, the door was shut and the curtains lowered. I was puzzled to know why he acted so. If he had a good heart and was engaged in the business of teaching the truth, why drive the boys out? Why not come also and see my mother? Only a few steps apart, I am now, and was then satisfied that he was an adulterer. The seeds of polygamy was sown, and Brigham the sower. I was present at a meeting in the Grove in Nauvoo about three weeks before Joseph and Hiram were murdered, when Joseph made a public statement in the presence of 3,000 people that polygamy had been practiced secretly by someone that had crept into the church and secretly. And it must be put down speedily or the church would be driven from Nauvoo. So now that is a source, but it is certainly not a journal, and it is certainly not multiple journals. And the author, who is saying that they're a schoolboy when they're in Nauvoo, clearly can't be very old at the time that this took place, this event that they are remembering from 50 years ago, more than 50 years ago. But it's certainly not a demonstration of adultery being practiced, which, again, you go back to what the email claims. The email claims it's documented in multiple journals. Except it's documented in zero journals, aside from the fact that it's in none of them. It's in multiple journals. This further, you know, goes on. If we were to go back to that first paragraph, maybe I'll go back to that. Or you know what, let's talk about the Cochraneites, this argument that there's a group of religious zealots, you might call them, that follow a guy by the name of Jacob Cochrane in 1818 and 1819, and he establishes this church. And the reason why people will make this connection and this claim is that he introduces something called spiritual wifery in his group where people have multiple sexual partners. So the claim that's being made in this email is that they discovered spiritual wifery and polygamy based off the Cochraneites in Massachusetts. This actually demonstrates another issue, and that is that wherever she's taking her source from, she's not separating it out correctly, because the Cochranites had all of their membership in what is today Maine. But in 1818 and 1819, what is today Maine was part of, part of Massachusetts. So.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In order to make the argument.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

They'Re making, they say here, like, oh, it was based off the Cochraneites in Massachusetts, except everywhere you're talking about that they're going on their missions is actually Maine, not Massachusetts, which is a. Another demonstration of a lack of historical acumen here. But Jacob Cochran establishes this group. What connection is there to Mormons? Well, there isn't any. In fact, I asked Chat GPT to tell me the number of Latter Day Saints that are known Cochraneites who convert. And ChatGPT told me that there were lots of them. And I said, okay, give me some names. So it gave me a name, a single name, and I said, what's the source for the fact that they were a member of the Cochraneites? And then it responded by saying, actually, there aren't any sources. Where does this connection come from? Now, look, that Latter Day Saints preached among people that used to be followers of Jacob Cochrane. We know that because Samuel Smith, who is not readily associated with the practice of polygamy, talks about it in his missionary journals from 1832. But that this idea was invented because there was this connection between the two groups. This is an idea that's really promoted by a couple who used to be members of the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but broke away from that group following what they saw as doctrinal drift. And they're part of the larger restoration movement. They wrote a series of books intended to prove that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy and that it was an invention of Brigham Young. Now, neither one of them are historians, and you can tell very quickly as you're going through their books just how weak the arguments are. So in this allegation, proximity is the same thing as actuality. If you're close, if you. If you happen to travel through the neighborhood of Saco, Maine, you're also practicing spiritual wifery. Like, you get there, they greet you at the town they say, hey, how are you doing? I've got a Book of Mormon here. Well, I guess here's your third wife and that's how it's presented. So let me take from their book. Brigham Young had a thorough knowledge of Cochranism, for he made several missionary journeys through the Cochraneite territory from Boston to Saco. Now that, first of all, wildly overstates how many Cochraneites there are, especially in the early 1830s. He attended the 1835 church conference in Saco, Maine. Brigham chose to travel alone in the Cochraneite territory instead of going with another elder. Well, that, I mean, clearly proves it, that there's the proof right there. And as they write, why did Brigham insist on traveling alone in an area where adulterous temptations were sure to befall any lonely elder? You know, and then even this terrible author with their terrible sources and their terrible arguments, even they have to admit the whole point is there's going to be a conference. The report for the June 1834 church conference in Saco stated that a numerous concourse had assembled. Although Brigham didn't go to the 1834 conference. But the entire point is that he went there for adultery. Right? But he. But he wasn't there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's lazy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

He was on a mission to the eastern states from May to September 1835. Brigham continued to work in that area and reported that he'd been to a conference in Maine on August 12th and 13th, where 52 members of the Saco branch attended Brigham's presence in and around Saco during the Cochraneite era. And it's not during the Cochraneite era. In fact, the Cochrane era is over by 1819. But hey, let's just start throwing things up and saying that they're sources is evidence that he was very familiar with Cochraneite polygamy. So these are the kinds of things that sound like they're an argument. Why would, why would Brigham travel by himself if it wasn't to go commit adultery? Well, I mean, we've got numerous times that Joseph Smith travels by himself. Are we saying that every time he does that, it's so he can go commit adultery? I mean, whenever anyone says it stands to reason, what they mean is, I do not have sources. A lot of this whole Cochraneite conspiracy claim comes from, you know, and again, these authors, they, they talk about historian G.T. ridlon Sr. Who wrote a history of the Saco Valley settlements. And so they. He will say that. That Jacob Cochran was like a John the Baptist to the Mormon movement. Well, there's multiple problems with this statement, the first being that GT Ridlon is not a historian. So again, you can call someone a historian just by saying he's a historian, but they don't have any training in history. And in fact GT stands for Gideon Tibbets, who actually is a. A pastor. He's a Baptist minister. So we're clearly getting a completely unbiased account from someone writing a history decades and decades and decades and decades after the events. And they just so happen to have negative things to say about Latter Day Saints at a time when everyone in the country hates Latter Day Saints. He's not a historian, he's a Baptist minister. But you'll notice these authors who this person is taking their email from. I think don't bother to tell people that. Don't you think it's kind of important information to know that the person who's claiming that there's a connection between the Cochrane Knights and the Mormons is a Baptist minister who is preaching against both groups? I mean, that's basic need to know information. Unless, of course, you're not. You're not trying to let your readers know. Now I want to kind of go back. I mean, I know I'm bouncing around a little bit. That's what happens when. Where are we at on the meter, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so again, we adjusted the meter. We didn't feel that the meter that we had 1 to 10 provided us the level of precision needed. We went to one to a million. I believe you are north of 900,000.

Wow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

That's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I really need to dial it back.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Or dial it up or dial it perfectly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

If I could get it down to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The 700,000, that would be great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I want to go back to the first paragraph, because this claim that the church lost its blessing and it dropped from a Melchizedek priesthood to an Aaronic priesthood. There is no Joseph Smith source that says that. So how does this person know that? Look, people come up with theories all the time. They always come up with theories to justify why they are the new real leader of the church because the church became fallen. But the church didn't just change its name on a whim. I think this person's trying to argue that the church changed its name from Church of Christ to Church of Latter Day Saints because it was then a fallen church. The Melchizedek priesthood was taken. Anyone who had the Melchizedek priest ordained upon them lost. It is what the claim is. Well, if that were true, then why is Joseph Smith ordaining people to the Melchizedek priesthood after that meeting and after the church's name change. And in particular, since this person seems to be really hung up on Brigham Young not having actual authority because he didn't go to the conference of that he couldn't have gone to because he wasn't a member of the church yet. Maybe we should just go to. I don't know. The priesthood license that is signed by Joseph Smith that certifies that Brigham Young has received, has been received in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, organized the 6th of April in the year of our Lord 1830, and has been ordained an elder according to the rules and regulations of said church and is duly authorized to preach the gospel agreeable to the authority of that office. It's Brigham Young's priesthood license. It's from 1836, and Joseph Smith is the one who signed it. So arguing that Brigham Young never had any authority because of some weird explanation of the church falling after the Isaac Morley meeting in 1831 flies in the face of actual documents. The problem with arguing that the church no longer has the Melchizedek priesthood is the person who knows whether or not it has the Melchizedek priesthood. Joseph Smith keeps giving people the Melchizedek priesthood. So that's kind of rough, right? To say, well, the church doesn't have it anymore. I mean, you'd have to argue that Joseph himself is fallen. And interestingly, this argument, it draws from a lot of different places. This person appears to be wanting to say Joseph was a true prophet, but the church fell. And the church primarily fell because of the quorum of the twelve apostles. But there is another person who made a very similar point argument at one point that clearly some of this is being drawn from. But they aren't making the argument that Joseph Smith was a true prophet the whole time and he just eventually became a fallen prophet. Instead, this person who we identified last episode as Bill the adulterer. I don't know whether or not William McClellan ever committed adulterer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, he received a revelation that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Said, hey, stop wanting to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

I mean, frankly, God could give that revelation to everyone. Stop trying to commit adultery.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Stop wanting to commit adultery. You need to stop being tempted about adultery.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

But William McClellan, when he forms his own church, is going to make the name of the church part and parcel of his argument that Joseph was a fallen prophet. And this goes back to the problem. You can only pick up a stick so far before you're actually picking up both ends of the stick. You think you're Picking up one side of it. Well, the very fact that they change the name that proves that the Church is under the condemnation of God. Okay, except for the fact that it's Joseph Smith who changed the name of it. And then it's Joseph Smith who received a revelation from God declaring what the name of the Church is when it was changed to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So you would have to say that Joseph was in error when he changed the name of the Church and then Joseph was in error again when he received the new name of the Church by revelation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The claim here isn't that Joseph is the fallen prophet, but that Brigham Young and the quorum of the 12 conspired to bring the Church to where it was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Right? I mean, and you could even see in part of that, you know, they brought Masonry into the Church. Well, actually Joseph Smith is the one who establishes the Masonic lodge in Nauvoo. That is ridiculously thoroughly documented. There are all kinds of non Latter Day Saint sources that demonstrate that Joseph Smith set up a Masonic lodge in Nauvoo. So did Brigham make him do that? Did Brigham forge his signatures to create that? Did Brigham make him become a Master Mason? I think the person who's making this argument is throwing all kinds of things up at the wall and using things like masonry and counterfeiting currency, which we already talked about. We have a whole episode. It's a two parter, horrifically written book. Again not by a historian. Stunning how this keeps happening, but a terribly written book about how the early church was just all counterfeiters. Again not based upon actual sources from the time because that would mean actual research, but instead these later claims that can't, that can't be verified. So William McClellan founds his own church in 1847. This is after he was done robbing the Latter Day Saints after the extermination order. So you know, I'm an apostle, I'm an apostate. I'm robbing everyone during the extermination order. And oh, by the way, now I'm going to start my own church. Stunning series of events that he has there in his newspaper, the Ensign of Liberty. He talks about how Joseph starts to fall away and the changing name of the Church. He says a motion is made by Elder Sidney Rigdon that this Church of Christ be no more known by that name, but we henceforth shall call ourselves Latter Day Saints. The unanimous vote of that conference settled the matter. The official origin organ of the Church. In the May number in the editorial column, Hosts as its caption Progress of the Church of the Latter Day Saints having officially rejected the name of Christ and taken a fictitious one which the mouth of the Lord did not give for the church and all other things being prepared, this warrior camp of saints set out for the western bounds of Missouri to redeem Zion, being led on by the prophet and other great ones who took fictitious names. But ah, the angels of God mourned, the heavens grieved, though the devils laughed, and the earth over which they wended their way sent forth her pestiferous breath filled with pain, sickness and death. So William McClellan is arguing that really the church fell when the attempt to lead the Zion's camp march came. Never mind the fact that Joseph Smith received the that revelation from God telling them to lead it and then points to the changing name of the church as proof of that. Well, you know, he cites to it. But we can, we can go to the original minutes again, these actual minutes are on the Joseph Smith Papers website. The conference came to order And Joseph Smith Jr. Was chosen as moderator. So Joseph's leading the conference. So this isn't a Sidney Rigdon plan. Joseph is there, which is which? Well, that's the point William McClellan's making. Joseph is a fallen prophet because of the change of the name. After a prayer, the conference proceeded to discuss the subject of names and appellations when a motion was made by Sidney Rigdon and seconded by Newell K. Whitney. Oh no. Now the church's bishop is also an apostate that this church be known hereafter by the name of the Church of the Latter Day Saints. Appropriate remarks were delivered by some of the members, after which the motion was put by the moderator and passed by unanimous vote. So who's the moderator of the conference? We just read Joseph Smith is the moderator of the conference. He's the one who puts it up. Sidney Rigdon suggests it, but Joseph's the one that says let's vote on it. Resolve that this conference recommend that the conferences of the churches abroad that making and transmitting the minutes of the proceedings, such as minutes and proceedings be made out under the above title, Joseph Smith Jr. Moderator. So it's signed by Joseph Smith, so you can see. And back to, you know, the original email. The argument that the changing name of the church is proof that the church has fallen was made a really long time ago by other apostates who also were trying to form their own church. Only they claimed that it meant that Joseph was a fallen prophet. Whereas our email writer is claiming that Joseph still a True prophet. And it was just other people that were changing the name. You can see why this becomes a pretty problematic thing. And by the way, in both cases, no historian is making this argument. You have no other contemporary sources that are stating that this is simply someone after the fact trying to find a justification for the position that they hold. And the justification they want to have is that I can now be the new leader of the church. Back to the email. I guess we. We've gone on a long time and this can't be a part three. So I have to. I have to stop.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wrap it up.

Yep. Yep.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Well, you've got to stop, Richard, because I can't. This idea that they created a secret order back in Nauvoo to implement plural marriage, where is the evidence of this? Where are our sources of this? We have Brigham Young's journals. We have Heber C. Kimball's journals. We have Wilford Woodruff's journals. The person who is making this argument has to argue that thousands and thousands of pages of documents are all fraudulent, that they are all filled with lies. Why? So that they can believe what they want to to believe. And apparently one of the overriding aspects of this is that Joseph Smith never taught or practiced polygamy. In fact, the email writer almost quotes the title of these non historians book. Joseph and Hyrum fought against polygamy and never practiced it and were ultimately martyred because of the dirty works of the secret order. Well, go find me a historian who says that when you say this is why events happened. Look, you can believe whatever you want to believe. If you want to believe that Brigham Young is a fallen prophet and that Joseph is a true prophet, well, that's a religious belief. You can believe that. But if you're going to make the claim to defend that belief that there's historical events that took place place, well then you need more than just an unsourced email riddled with false statements. Not. Not false religious statements. Look, there are a ton of false religious statements. I'm all in on that. But there are multiple false factual statements in this. And the question is, how many of these false factual statements are informing the false religious statements. The person then goes on to claim that because the church hadn't finished the temple when Joseph died, that the church was rejected along with their dead. Okay, well, who says that? Where does Joseph say that? That if the temple isn't done before I'm murdered, that that means the church is rejected? Is there a source for that? No, there isn't. But there is a keyboard warrior or a YouTube jockey that is claiming something like that. But that's not the same thing as having a source. When Joseph died, that dispensation closed and the fullness of the gospel was taken from the earth and the church went into apostasy. That's what the email writer writes. Oh really? So this is the last dispensation of the fullness of times. Except not actually the last. It's the last dispensation of the fullness of times. But then also like all of our podcasts, here's part two. There is no evidence for that. Now I realize that's what a self styled prophet says. It's what the Denver snuffers of the world claim. But they claim them by rejecting the teachings of Joseph Smith and by denying the sources that exist. The email goes on. The people were smitten and driven. God did not fight their battles. The Nauvoo Temple was not finished. It was burned. Which if it was God's house, would he allow it to be destroyed? Boy, that's one of those if it stands to reason things that I really don't think you want to walk down that that road. Because God would never ever allow his apostles to be killed because that never happened in world history. God never allowed people to be tortured for what they believed. God never allowed people to be burned out of their homes and houses. I mean God never allowed the Saints in Kozo, because if we're taking this person of their word, the Church is pure and true and good in 1830 and 1831. Well then why did this God allow the Saints to be driven from Colesville and then from Kirtland to Missouri? Were they also sinners then to Boy, the problem is if we apply this rhetoric. Well you kind of keep going further and further back to when the church is actually a problem. Portion of the Saints followed Brigham to Utah because they were running from the law for fraud and for money laundering. Yeah, that's. That's also not true. But hey, let's just say whatever we want since it doesn't matter, we'll just write it. Notice again, no sources. Brigham and the 12 established the current LDS church added or changed doctrines and scriptures like Doctrine and covenant. Section 131, the new and everlasting covenant with was changed to marriage by Orson Hyde. I don't know what your source is for that. That sounds false. I mean look that it's clarified to be marriage. Yes, but Doctrine Covenant Section 131 comes from William Clayton's journal. Which are you Arguing that the original version of William Clayton's journal is accurate. Because if you're arguing that William Clayton's journal is the journal that says Joseph Smith taught and practiced polygamy, so we're just going to say that just the portion that contains DNC 131, that's that part is true. And all of Joseph's interactions with William Clayton, where he talks about plural marriage with William Clayton, that those are false. I mean, I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but every single one of these arguments is terrible. DNC132 was added to justify polygamy. These two sections were added in the 1876 prison of the Doctrine and Covenants years after Joseph's death. Yes, along with all of the other sections that are added to the Doctrine and Covenants. If the claim is anything that's added in 1876 is false, well, then that means D&C 121, 22 and 23 are false letters. It means that D&C 2 is false and D&C 13 is false, and DC 87 is also false and everything's false. Again, that's the kind of thing that is put in there to cause someone to feel troubled. Why? Because they don't even know that those revelations were added later. And so when someone says, well, if it wasn't false, why was it added later? But they're not saying that DNC121, are they? Which was added later, they're not saying it about DNC 137 and Joseph's vision of the celestial kingdom. So this is the problem with these arguments. They utilize something that they only apply to the point that they want to dismiss. They establish new doctrine not based on the true doctrine of Christ, which is laid out very clearly. The consequences of that I don't believe so clearly. The person who wrote this email has been inundated with someone making what sounds like good arguments and arguments that they want to hear because they say things like plural marriage never came from God. But they do so by rejecting all the sources that exist, by making conclusions that they don't apply to any of the other sources, and by outright stating falsehoods when it comes to the historical record. When we aren't willing to take sources seriously and we just pick and choose whatever we want, we pretend that nothing else exists. Yeah, it's super easy to make a great argument, but that's not what historians do. I know that this is a super sensitive issue for people. I know we'll have people email after this saying, how dare you claim that Doctrine and Covenant Section 132 is really a revelation from God? Well, as Latter Day Saints, it is canonized Scripture and we have multiple historical sources for it. The claim that people have made, the claim that the Reorganized Church made for years, that it was just invented later, is not a verifiable one and one for which the historical record does not bear it up. Joseph Smith, by the weight of the historical record, clearly taught and practiced plural marriage. This isn't just some kind of, of of conspiracy theory in which Brigham Young and the apostles got together and hatched up a Cochrane plan to get polygamy into the Church. There are zero sources for that out of the thousands and thousands that we have. And I know someone who is really struggling with polygamy and they don't want to believe that God ever commanded it. When someone says, hey, hey, hey, I have a way to show that it never came from God, we want to believe it. But wanting to believe an argument is not the same thing as that argument being sound. And so hopefully these two episodes have helped see why some of these arguments are not. They're not very sound. I know that it's difficult when we're dealing with people that we love. My experience is someone who's this far down the rabbit hole, they aren't willing to listen to what real sources are. They've already decided that their truth is what they're going to support regardless of what the sources say. And you can always come back to this. If this argument was a good argument, historians would be making it. Non Latter Day Saint historians who would win a Pulitzer Prize if they could prove that Brigham Young invented polygamy. They would have their pick of any Ivy League institution and they'd have a book that would sell out if they could prove it. So why aren't they writing that book? They're not Latter Day Saints. They're not trying to defend the Church. In fact, many of them dislike the Church greatly. They could do both things. They could destroy the Church and create their career by proving the things that are in this email and in some of these arguments. Why don't they do it then? And I think we already know the answer. They don't do it because it's not a historically responsible argument. Don't let people sway you with arguments that they claim to be historical when they aren't accepted by even non Latter Day Saints as history. Ultimately, the only way that you can know the truth of anything is through the Holy Spirit. Ultimately, that is how you know whether or not President Nelson is a prophet of God. But do think about the repercussions of claiming that Brigham Young and all the quorum of the 12 were all fallen, that they all made up plural marriage later, that it was all a lie, that it all came. You're not just talking about one or two people, you're talking about hundreds of people that are all part of the lie. Eliza Arsenal, liar. Bathsheba Smith, liar. Sylvia Sessions, liar. Melissa Lott, liar. And on top of that, you're making that claim, not based upon evidence, that they're liars. You're making that claim based upon what you want to believe. And that's not history. That's just emotion. And I've probably had enough of it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So we should probably close.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmont]

Thank you so much for listening. I promise we'll never talk about plural marriage even tangentially ever again.

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.