Standard of Truth Podcast: Season 5, Episode 31 - "Crosses and Purgatory"

Release Date: July 24, 2025
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Guest: Dr. Richard Leduc

In this engaging and insightful episode of Standard of Truth, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc delve into the nuanced topics of Catholic beliefs, specifically focusing on purgatory, and explore the historical and theological distinctions between Catholicism and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS). The episode is structured around listener emails, which serve as catalysts for deep discussions on doctrine, church practices, and interfaith understanding.

1. Listener Emails and Initial Discussions

a. Seminary Budget Concerns
Email from Valerie:
Valerie raises concerns about the limited seminary budget, highlighting the restrictions on using funds solely for supplies and prohibiting expenditures on food. She emphasizes the practical need for food to engage students effectively.

• Quote:
  “I think 97% of the budget is food. That's. It's. The. It is the best way to go.”
  (03:11)

b. Questions on Purgatory and Universalism
Email from David:
David inquires about LDS perspectives on purgatory and universalism, referencing Brigham Young's views and seeking clarity on how LDS beliefs compare to Catholic doctrines.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Purgatory vs. Spirit World:
    Dr. Dirkmaat explains that while Catholics believe purgatory is a transitional state for souls destined for heaven, LDS theology teaches that all spirits go to the spirit world, with the opportunity for salvation based on their earthly lives.

  • Universalism:
    The conversation touches on Brigham Young's statement dismissing universalism, clarifying that LDS belief does not align with the idea that everyone will be saved, but rather distinguishes between those destined for various kingdoms of glory.

• Notable Quote:
  “In Catholic theology, they have two different kinds of sins... So how do I enter into the kingdom of heaven clean?”
  (14:43)

c. Preparing for a Catholic Exchange Student
Email from Jen:
Jen seeks advice on how to prepare a culturally Catholic Spanish exchange student for participation in LDS church activities, aiming to bridge understanding between the two faith traditions.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Explaining LDS Doctrine:
    Strategies for highlighting similarities, such as the emphasis on sacraments and ordinances, while also addressing differences like the absence of crosses in LDS worship spaces.

  • Church Imagery:
    The hosts discuss the significance of a gymnasium within LDS meetinghouses and the absence of ornate decorations typical in Catholic churches, explaining the historical and doctrinal reasons behind these choices.

• Notable Quote:
  “The most stark thing that's gonna just smack her in the face... is that there's no crucifix in here.”
  (33:47)

d. Inquiry About Crosses in LDS Buildings
Email from Lindsay:
Lindsay questions why LDS buildings do not display crosses, expressing curiosity about the theological and historical reasoning behind this practice.

• Key Discussion Points:

  • Focus on Resurrection Over Crucifixion:
    Dr. Dirkmaat elaborates on the LDS emphasis on Christ's resurrection rather than His crucifixion as a central symbol of faith.

  • Historical Context of Protestant Iconoclasm:
    The conversation traces the Protestant Reformation's rejection of religious imagery, explaining how this influenced LDS practices to maintain simplicity in worship spaces.

• Notable Quote:
  “We don't display the cross on our buildings or in our chapels or in our classrooms or similar places.”
  (44:29)

2. In-Depth Theological Discussions

a. Catholic Doctrine of Purgatory vs. LDS Spirit World
Dr. Dirkmaat provides a comprehensive comparison between Catholic purgatory and the LDS concept of the spirit world. He explains that purgatory serves as a purging process for souls destined for heaven, cleansing them of venial sins through divine grace and prayerful acts by the living. In contrast, the LDS spirit world is a universal intermediate state where all spirits reside post-mortem, with the opportunity for redemption and progression based on their earthly actions and acceptance of Christ's atonement.

• Quote:
  “Catholics believe in an immediate judgment... Purgatory is where you're going to have these... venial sins purged out of you so that you can be prepared for the final judgment and to go into heaven clean.”
  (21:35)

b. The Role of Symbols in Worship: Crosses and Iconography
The hosts explore the historical roots of Protestant opposition to religious symbols, particularly the cross, as seen during the Reformation. They discuss how early Protestants viewed the use of crosses in churches as idolatrous, aligning with the second commandment's prohibition against graven images. This historical stance influenced the LDS Church's decision to forgo crosses in their meetinghouses, focusing instead on symbols that reflect their doctrinal emphasis.

• Quote:
  “The reason why this is such a frustrating one... is that historically we never started with a cross.”
  (49:33)

c. Evolution of Protestant Practices and LDS Response
The conversation highlights how Protestant denominations initially rejected the use of crosses and ornate imagery but gradually adopted them in response to Catholic immigration and cultural shifts. Dr. Dirkmaat contrasts this with the LDS Church’s steadfast adherence to its original practices, maintaining simplicity in worship spaces as a reflection of their doctrinal beliefs.

• Quote:
  “The difference is we never changed and they did.”
  (75:31)

3. Historical Insights on Protestant Iconoclasm

Dr. Dirkmaat delves into the historical context of the Protestant Reformation, explaining how figures like Martin Luther and John Calvin influenced the rejection of religious imagery. He elucidates the theological motivations behind iconoclasm and how it shaped the architectural and symbolic aspects of Protestant churches. The discussion also covers the gradual acceptance of crosses in Protestant denominations due to external cultural pressures and internal transformations.

• Quote:
  “John Calvin and the reformers that that will spawn after him, people like John Knox and John Wesley, they will see the cross as a symbol of Catholic idolatry.”
  (49:33)

4. LDS Official Position on the Cross

The episode references the official LDS stance on the use of the cross, emphasizing that while the crucifixion is a foundational doctrine, the church chooses to symbolize Christ's resurrection in their official imagery. This decision aligns with their focus on the living, resurrected Christ who continues to guide the church through modern revelation.

• Quote from LDS.org:
  “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints does not display the cross on its buildings or in its chapels or in its classrooms or similar places... The official symbol for the Church is an image of the resurrected, living Christ who guides his church today through revelation to his prophet.”
  (73:00)

5. Conclusions and Insights

Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc conclude by highlighting the importance of understanding historical and doctrinal contexts when addressing interfaith questions. They emphasize that the LDS Church’s practices, such as the absence of crosses in worship spaces, are deeply rooted in their theological beliefs and historical responses to broader Christian traditions. The episode encourages listeners to appreciate the unique aspects of LDS doctrine while fostering respectful dialogue with other faith communities.

• Final Quote:
  “It's one of the most fascinating aspects of the history of our church and the history of Protestantism in America... culture changed the definition of what constitutes being a real Christian.”
  (75:28)

6. Closing Remarks

The hosts express gratitude to their listeners for their thoughtful questions and engagement, reinforcing the podcast's mission to deepen understanding of LDS history and doctrine. They invite listeners to continue sharing their inquiries and experiences, ensuring ongoing dialogue and exploration of faith-related topics.

End of Summary