Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth (Season 5, Episode 34) - "Atheism Part 3"

Host Information

• Title: Standard of Truth
• Host: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat
• Co-Host: Dr. Richard Leduc
• Description: The podcast aims to help Latter-Day Saints better understand their history and strengthen their faith. Hosted by Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, an associate professor of Church History and Doctrine at BYU, alongside Dr. Richard Leduc.

Introduction to the Episode

Timestamp: 00:01 – 02:10

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat opens the episode by welcoming listeners to a special live recording of the "Standard of Truth" podcast. Joined by Dr. Richard Leduc, they set the stage for an engaging discussion on atheism, particularly focusing on the "divine hiddenness" argument—a common critique leveled by atheists against belief in a loving God.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (00:01): "In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith."

Doctrine and Covenants Section 88 Overview

Timestamp: 02:10 – 10:00

Dr. Dirkmaat delves into Doctrine and Covenants Section 88, highlighting its significance in early church teachings. He discusses the revelation received during a 1832 church meeting, emphasizing the communal prayer and subsequent receiving of divine guidance. This section underscores the importance of faith, unity, and the establishment of educational institutions like the School of the Prophets.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (04:45): "He recommended all present to pray separately and vocally to the Lord for to reveal his will unto us concerning the upbuilding of Zion and for the benefit of the saints and for the duty and the employment of the elders."

Transition to Atheism Discussion

Timestamp: 10:00 – 16:00

After a brief interlude filled with light-hearted banter, the conversation shifts to atheism. Both hosts acknowledge the challenges posed by atheist arguments, particularly those concerning the problem of evil and divine hiddenness. They introduce their plan to address these topics, mentioning feedback from listeners and their intent to enhance the podcast's format based on previous episodes.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Richard Leduc (11:27): "We just skipped right over the mailbag. We have thousands of people that are emailing us. Beautiful emails, sincere emails."

Understanding the Argument from Divine Hiddenness

Timestamp: 16:31 – 27:16

The hosts present a clip from Alex O'Connor, an atheist podcaster, who outlines the "argument from divine hiddenness." O'Connor posits that if a perfectly loving God exists, He would not hide Himself from individuals, eliminating non-resistant non-belief. The argument contends that the uneven geographical and temporal distribution of religious belief undermines the existence of a loving, omnipresent deity.

Notable Quote:

Alex O'Connor (16:38): "If you believe that it's being supervised by a God who loves everybody equally and wants to come to know everybody... why would he hide his face more from the Thai than from the Rwandans?"

Hosts' Responses to Divine Hiddenness

Timestamp: 19:19 – 31:24

Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc critically analyze O'Connor's arguments, expressing frustration with the implications of divine hiddenness within traditional Christian theology. They challenge the notion that billions of individuals who never encounter the gospel are condemned to eternal suffering purely based on divine discretion. The hosts argue that such interpretations make God's justice and mercy appear arbitrary and unjust.

Notable Quotes:

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (20:18): "You know, early Calvinist theologians wrestled with it... if you say you have to have faith in God in order to be saved, then almost every conversation you will ever hear from any Christian publicly will be about personal salvation."

Dr. Richard Leduc (27:33): "We ended the clip with him saying, justice is getting what you deserve, mercy is not getting what you deserve, and grace is getting what you don't deserve. And that sounds pithy."

Wesley Huff’s Perspective on Hell

Timestamp: 31:30 – 44:35

The discussion moves to Wesley Huff, another prominent atheist thinker, known for his critical views on Christian concepts of hell. Huff argues that traditional depictions of hell—as eternal torment—are more influenced by medieval art than scripture, suggesting that such views are inconsistent with the notion of a merciful God. He contrasts Christian beliefs with other religions, emphasizing that in Christianity, Jesus takes on the punishment humanity deserves, whereas other religions may overlook divine justice.

Notable Quote:

Wesley Huff (40:12): "Christianity is different because the punishment that we deserve is taken on God himself in the person of Jesus. And so in that sense justice is fulfilled."

Critique of Traditional Christian Theology

Timestamp: 44:35 – 57:42

Dr. Dirkmaat offers a robust critique of the traditional Christian response to divine hiddenness and the problem of eternal suffering. He questions the fairness of condemning individuals who never had the opportunity to hear about Jesus, highlighting the randomness in the distribution of religious beliefs across different geographical regions and historical periods. The hosts express skepticism towards the idea that God allows such suffering despite His omnipotence and benevolence.

Notable Quotes:

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (46:13): "To say that she's choosing to reject him is to essentially make Alex's point. Christianity sure seems to kind of be like a Western European, Western hemisphere whites only club almost."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (55:43): "We don't have to believe that. And so we're probably... Over time, Richard's giving me the look like he wants me to be quiet. And that's most of the time."

Latter-Day Saint Perspective on Salvation and Divine Purpose

Timestamp: 57:42 – 66:58

Concluding the discussion, Dr. Leduc presents the Latter-Day Saint (LDS) theology as a comprehensive answer to the issues raised. He emphasizes that in LDS belief, the purpose of life is to glorify God and become like Him, addressing the problem of why billions may not have the opportunity to hear the gospel. The LDS perspective offers a more inclusive view of salvation, countering the traditional Christian stance that often appears exclusionary.

Notable Quotes:

Dr. Richard Leduc (58:24): "The purpose of this earth is so that we can become like God. The purpose of this mortality, that's difficult. So we can become like God, that God's glory is that we become like him, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (66:26): "Most of it in the trash. What are we talking about? Atheism."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: 66:58 – End

The episode concludes with the hosts reinforcing the strength of the LDS faith in addressing deep theological questions posed by atheism. They highlight the importance of understanding divine purposes and the inclusive nature of salvation within the LDS framework. The hosts encourage listeners to seek deeper knowledge and share these insights with others to bolster faith and understanding.

Notable Quote:

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat (67:09): "Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them until next time."

Key Takeaways

1. Divine Hiddenness Argument: A central atheist critique questioning why a loving and omnipotent God remains hidden, leading to widespread non-belief.

2. Geographical and Temporal Distribution of Belief: The unequal spread of religious beliefs raises questions about fairness and divine justice.

3. Eternal Punishment vs. LDS Salvation Doctrine: Traditional Christian views on hell are critiqued for their perceived arbitrariness, whereas LDS theology offers a more inclusive approach to salvation.

4. Purpose of Life in LDS Theology: Emphasis on glorifying God and becoming like Him provides a framework that addresses the problem of suffering and excluded individuals.

5. Critique of Traditional Responses: The hosts argue that conventional Christian responses to atheism and divine hiddenness often fail to reconcile God's justice and mercy adequately.

Final Note: This episode delved deeply into challenging atheist arguments, providing thoughtful counterpoints from a Latter-Day Saint perspective. Listeners are encouraged to reflect on these discussions to strengthen their understanding and faith.