S5E37 Orson Hyde and the Prophecy of the Civil War Part 1

Summary

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Standard of Truth Podcast – S5E37

Episode Title: Orson Hyde and the Prophecy of the Civil War Part 1
Release Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Dr. Richard L. Leduc

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Episode Overview

This episode marks the beginning of a two-part dive into Orson Hyde’s 1862 commentary on Joseph Smith’s prophecy of the Civil War (Doctrine & Covenants 87), with a spotlight on Hyde’s prediction that the "demon of war" would move from America to Europe—reviewed in historical hindsight as possibly alluding to the World Wars. The hosts address a listener’s question about the authenticity and context of Hyde’s letter, providing extensive historical background about the Civil War prophecy, its place in Latter-day Saint thought, and the critique (and misunderstanding) it has received over the years.

Throughout, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc employ their signature blend of scholarly analysis, faith-building commentary, and humor (often at their own expense). While the specific reading and analysis of Hyde’s letter is set for the next episode, this part lays the essential historical groundwork in a lively and accessible way.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mailbag Listener Emails

• Faith & Church History Struggles: Multiple emails highlight personal challenges with church history, apostasy in families, and regaining faith through better sources and learning.

  • Danica’s email: Shares her journey as the only active LDS member in her family and how digging into church history and the podcast helped dispel fear and build conviction. (20:09–22:59)
  • Ryan’s email: Expresses gratitude for hearing about his ancestor Emer Harris, and the reassurance this brought about faith in the midst of doubting family situations. (09:21–12:06)

• The “Shelf” Metaphor for Difficult Issues (24:57–30:07)

  • Dr. Leduc critiques the common member approach to “putting things on a shelf” rather than actively seeking testimony of difficult topics—encourages engaging with the best sources, not antagonistic or anti-Mormon ones.
  • Quote:
    “[...] the church history is nothing to be afraid of. It’s not. We should be—there’s incredible miracles and sacrifice and things that happen in our history. And the idea of putting difficult doctrine on the shelf, while I suppose is better than apostasy, I think—yeah.” (25:23–25:51, Dr. Leduc)

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2. Framing the Civil War Prophecy and Its Historical Context

• Doctrine and Covenants 87’s Significance:

  • Prophecy’s specificity—over the location (South Carolina), the issue (slavery), and the scope (war poured out on all nations).
  • Host frustration with attempts to diminish the prophecy’s uniqueness by claiming "everybody saw the Civil War coming."
  • Quote:
    “You’ll notice that they won’t create a very long list of those [in 1835 who predicted civil war] or any list at all. They’ll just say something like, everyone knew there was going to be a war, but then provide no evidence.” (43:19–43:33, Dr. Dirkmaat)

• Historical Myopia and Confirmation Bias:

  • Dr. Dirkmaat explains how modern assumptions cloud historical thinking—while Civil War seems inevitable to us, it was often seen as unlikely or preventable even as late as 1861.
  • Eyewitness sources:
    • Charleston newspaper (March 12, 1861): Predicts no major bloodshed in Charleston over Fort Sumter, downplays likelihood of a major war just one month before the conflict begins. (50:49–51:50)
    • Missouri newspaper (Jan 1, 1861): "Secession of South Carolina or even all of the Gulf states will make not—[...] would make civil war inevitable. War is not the necessary consequence of the secession." (59:55–61:21)
  • Comparison to Jesus’ destruction of the temple prophecy—what seems obvious in hindsight was shocking and improbable at the time. (39:56–45:48)

• Actual Context of 1830s America:

  • The 1832–1835 context: The American union was still seen as stable, and divisions—while real—were not universally expected to escalate to violent conflict.
  • Nullification Crisis: When South Carolina nullified federal tariffs in 1832, other Southern states didn’t join, and federal intervention solved the issue with no war.
  • "If you were just guessing based on history, what would you guess? Would you guess that there would be a war... or would you guess, like the two other times someone tried to put together a confederacy of states, that it would fall apart?" (66:28–66:34, Dr. Dirkmaat)

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3. Critiques, Apologetics, and Predictions about War Spreading

• Defending the Prophecy:

  • Arguments trivializing the prophecy ("everybody knew about Civil War") do not withstand historical scrutiny, as contemporaries did not expect a massive, bloody war.
  • Even in early 1861, newspapers and politicians doubted significant conflict would occur.
  • The prophecy’s details—escalation to other nations, involvement of "remnants," and slaves being marshaled against their masters—are cited as both specific and extraordinary for the time.
  • Quote:
    “I find it one of the least credible arguments that exists among New Testament scholars when they’re trying to date the Gospels, because they don’t want to say that the Gospels could be dated any earlier than AD 70. Why? Because all the Gospels say the temple is going to be destroyed. So what’s more likely? That Jesus’s followers after the fact said, ‘Oh, by the way, he also said the temple was going to be destroyed. I forgot to write that down.’ Or that Jesus predicted perfectly exactly the destruction of the temple.” (45:48–47:05, Dr. Dirkmaat)

• On Anti-Mormon Arguments:

  • Example of internet criticism about the D&C 87 prophecy’s inclusion in LDS scripture: Despite anti-Mormon claims, contemporary documentary evidence (manuscripts and 1851 English Pearl of Great Price) shows the prophecy predates the Civil War and is not a later invention. (68:21–69:09)

• Orson Hyde’s Letter & Prophecies of European War:

  • The listener’s original prompt draws attention to Orson Hyde’s 1862 letter, supposedly predicting war moving to Europe—interpreted in hindsight as hinting at World Wars.
  • Hosts do not yet read the letter in this episode; next episode promises close examination and context around Hyde’s commentary.
  • The hosts note how hindsight and confirmation bias can lead to over-interpretation but also recognize the boldness of Hyde’s statements given their timing and background.

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4. Recurring Themes and Tone

• Humor and Banter:

  • Extended personal asides, football commentary (03:36–08:26), jokes about “big carrot,” and sarcastic remarks about anti-Mormon arguments. Notably:
    • “Big Carrot has been putting this out for years…” (03:08, Dr. Dirkmaat)
  • Running gags about co-host Dr. Leduc’s poor eyesight, massive glasses, and historical glasses enabling travel through time (01:16–08:11).

• Faith and Resilience:

  • Reiterated encouragement for members to actively engage, study, and build testimonies—even on “hard” historical topics—and not be derailed by sensationalist, antagonistic arguments found online.
  • Quote:
    “Go to the best sources and read and think and pray about it. Now, that doesn’t mean you’re going to get an answer immediately, but very often when people are struggling... they haven’t gone to the best sources at all. But they have spent all kinds of time wallowing in the mire of antagonistic unacademic sources designed to destroy faith...” (28:40–30:07, Dr. Dirkmaat)

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Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• Leduc on “Putting Things on a Shelf” (25:23–26:44):
  “My thing is that I think you should gain a testimony of the thing. That’s what I think you should do. I think polygamy is hard... and I think we should seek to gain testimonies of these things…”
• Dirkmaat’s Rebuke of Critics’ Civil War “Inevitability” (43:19–43:33):
  “You’ll notice that they won’t create a very long list of those people or any list at all. They’ll just say something like, everyone knew there was going to be a war, but then provide no evidence.”
• Dirkmaat, on New Testament parallels (45:48–47:05):
  “What’s more likely? That Jesus’s followers after the fact said, ‘Oh, by the way, he also said the temple was going to be destroyed,’... Or that Jesus predicted perfectly, exactly the destruction of the temple?”
• Dirkmaat on Anti-Mormon Online Encounters: (68:21–69:46)
  “...this person was arguing... a Christian saying Joseph’s a false prophet... they point to this. ‘But that revelation wasn’t put into their Doctrine and Covenants until 1877 or 1876. So that just shows that it was made up after the fact.’... We have literally dozens of manuscript copies... throughout the 1830s and 1840s. And I said that to this person who responded, ‘Well, how do I know that those weren’t forged later?’... Their response after I sent that to them... they said, ‘Well, it doesn’t really matter because anyone still could have said it.’”

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Important Timestamps

• Listener mailbag begins: 09:21
• Discussion of “the shelf” metaphor: 24:57–30:07
• Context, misunderstandings, and defense of Civil War prophecy: 37:09–69:09
• Charleston newspaper/expectations pre-war: 50:49–51:50
• Missouri newspaper post-secession: 59:55–61:09
• Direct confrontation of anti-Mormon arguments: 68:21–69:46
• Promise to address Orson Hyde’s letter in next episode: 71:10

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Conclusion

This episode is a rich, discursive primer on the Civil War prophecy in Doctrine & Covenants 87, showing why it was, in its time and context, an extraordinary and specific prediction, unsupported by contemporary expectations. The hosts challenge listeners to be more rigorous and faith-filled in pursuing church history, to rely on credible sources, and to beware the pitfalls of modern projection and confirmation bias. Listeners are left on a cliffhanger for the next episode, where Orson Hyde’s 1862 commentary and its possible foreshadowing of the World Wars will be examined in full detail.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[B]

Foreign. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmot, and I am joined live in his studio. Yes, it's Richard's studio. We're at Richard's house. No studio. Let's call it a studio.

[C]

It's a. Well, for tax purposes. This is a studio.

[B]

If anyone from the IRS is listening, all of Richard's house is a gigantic studio. A giant, giant studio. My Host and friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[C]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back in my.

[D]

Technically.

[C]

In my studio.

[D]

Technically, I'm.

[C]

You know what? Yeah, thanks for. Yeah, you know, you're welcome to be back.

[D]

Thanks for having me back.

[C]

I'm very excited. I had an eye appointment. I get new glasses soon and I will probably be able to go to a 36 font for the future. Draper Palmer Palmer Brown Mailbag.

[B]

At some point. Are the. Are the lenses on your glasses going to be able to, like, deflect comets?

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Like, will they. You like, if Armageddon, the movie ever happens, will they just use your glasses instead?

[C]

I can see back in time. Like, it bends light.

[D]

Such. The concave is such that light is. It's more than. It's more than like a. A black hole.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

Yeah. Bending space and time. I look to the left and it's the 1880s.

[B]

I look to the right.

[D]

It's 1920s.

[C]

My wife is very concerned. I have very few skills and if I can't see, I wouldn't do well as new blind. And I would struggle and I would not be able to make a living for our family. So she's very concerned. She wants me to eat carrots. She sneaks them into every meal we have.

[B]

I've pointed this out, but I think it was on the premium. Richard's having some real problems with his eyes and also refuses and has always refused.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

To eat any form of carrot.

[C]

I would rather. I would rather die. I would rather be blind, obviously. I would rather. I don't believe it. I don't believe it. Anyway, it's all. It's all one of those things where it's like you put lavender on a. You know, a nice. An ankle sprain or a knee sprain.

[B]

So you think like, vitamin A is a conspiracy theory.

[C]

Yeah. Right. The idea of carrots came along before, you know, antibiotics.

[D]

So you think big Carrot. Big carrot has the big carrot, Big carrot has the. They've been putting this out for years. Yeah.

[C]

RFK Jr. You can see RFK Jr. Is gonna get to the bottom of big carrot. But I.

[D]

Have you also thought about the fact that carrots are orange? Where's that artificial dye coming from? From carrots? Yeah. Why. Why would they be orange?

[C]

That's funny. Well, Garrett, they're basically a box of.

[D]

Lucky charms as far as I'm concerned.

[C]

We are very excited for to begin. I mentioned on the premium this last week that this is where you lose me for the next four months. I've got multiple screens going, none of which are in any way supporting you as I'm watching football games and football games upon football games is my favorite thing is college football. And.

[B]

And, you know, apparently every once in a while I'll be talking and under his breath he'll say yes or no, and I'll think that he's talking about what I just said.

[C]

Yeah. I love what Orson Hyde.

[D]

Yeah. No, I'll be like.

[B]

I'll be like, you know, and that's the reason why we all need the atonement and Richard. No, no, no, you can't do that. Well, I mean, we.

[D]

I think we can. I think we all need it.

[C]

Well, this. I mean, this episode is going to come out at the beginning of the NFL season.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

I believe the same day, almost.

[C]

Yes. Cowboys, Eagles tonight. It's very exciting. So Philadelphia seven and a half.

[D]

What's your.

[B]

Oh, it's Philadelphia seven and a half.

[D]

What'S your.

[B]

What's your pick on that when you're going to take the points?

[C]

Well, I mean, they just lost Micah Parsons. Right, The Cowboys. Yeah. So going to your dear beloved Green Bay Packers.

[B]

I'm not a fan.

[C]

No, you're not. You're a Raiders fan.

[B]

Well, I'm mainly not a fan of the packers because I was verbally assaulted.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

There were multiple packer statements that involved expletives directed at me whenever we tried to share the gospel on Sunday.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, the Eagles, they looked pretty good at the end of last season.

[D]

My understanding destroyed. Destroyed the Kansas City Chiefs like they.

[B]

Weren'T even a team.

[C]

Yeah, that was bad. But no, I. I think the. I think the Eagles come back. They look good.

[B]

Like Patrick Mahomes didn't just sound like Kermit.

[C]

Well, they got. They got past.

[B]

Looked like Kermit the Frog with the hands waving.

[C]

They got pass rush with four. I mean, that's how you beat Tom. That's how the Giants beat Tom Brady. You get the pass rush with four, you bring everybody else back. And now it's open.

[B]

You catch a ball on your helmet.

[C]

That helps. That does help.

[B]

It helps to catch a ball in your helmet and then you're. You're golden.

[C]

Yeah. So, you know, fly Eagles, fly. I think they're gonna. Seven and a half's a lot, but.

[B]

You know, it's huge for an NFL.

[C]

Seven and a half. Yeah, that's quite a bit. Especially divisional.

[B]

They're gonna win by more than a touchdown. That's, that's a lot. But also Micah Parsons is gone.

[C]

Yeah, those, those first round picks they got, they're not going to help them this week.

[B]

Well, they did get a defensive lineman.

[C]

Oh, very good. He's a top ten.

[B]

I don't know.

[D]

It was, it was for salary reasons. I don't have any idea.

[C]

Watch.

[B]

Someone in his family is probably listening.

[C]

So now BYU looked good. University of Utah also looked very good.

[D]

So, so you know who looked really good?

[C]

Florida State. Oh, yeah.

[D]

Oh, because they didn't pay the $2 million. Yeah. Nil that they were.

[B]

How was it? It was more something ridiculous.

[C]

We'll get the crack on.

[B]

So they got a different quarterback, you.

[D]

Know, who threw for three touchdowns and.

[B]

Their quarterback, who was demanding all that money went to UCLA and he, he wasn't the worst part of UCLA's game. No, but he also didn't help them win the game.

[C]

Utah look good? Look, I mean, BYU I think had 468 yards rushing, but it's against the vaunted Vikings defense of Portland State. Yeah, he got beat by a.

[B]

It sounds a lot better if you're playing the Minnesota Vikings.

[C]

Yes, it does. So I. It's tough to tell. First week's always tough to tell. Right. Like. All right, so, you know, does Portland State run the table the rest of the way?

[B]

Well, they lost the week previous to Tarleton State, 42 to nothing.

[C]

Right. Which is a team that no one even people at Tarleton right.

[B]

Now look in your glasses and go back in time and talk to Bannister. Tarleton. He wouldn't know that Tarleton State exists, even though it's not named after him.

[D]

Gotta be a weird name, your Texas school after a traitorous loyalist who murdered people.

[C]

It might be, actually, you never know. Guess, Guess which city Tarleton State is in.

[B]

Let's go with, how about Odessa?

[C]

You know, What? That's not bad, actually. It's in Stevensville.

[B]

Is that Nero Desert?

[C]

It is. Relatively. It's on the way from. It's from Dallas to Odessa. Relatively.

[B]

Hey, it's.

[C]

It's in the. It's in the. You know, the. The triangle of Waco, Fort Worth, and Stevensville. That's.

[B]

That's the power triangle that everyone's always talking about.

[C]

It's about an hour outside of Dallas.

[B]

I feel like everything in Texas is at least an hour away, so that's as close as I could have got.

[C]

Even if you're in Dallas going somewhere in Dallas, that's.

[B]

Every time I go to Phoenix, I'm just like. I've been driving for two hours and I'm still on the same side of Phoenix. What is this?

[C]

We just. We just hired a couple of people from North Scottsdale.

[D]

It was.

[C]

And. But no, but they will not condescend to leave even if they have to go to South Scottsdale. They're like. They feel like they've been inconvenienced. Like, how dare you. We had. We had a meeting in Mesa. You would have thought that what I asked them to do was fly to Louisiana was be a handcart pioneer.

[B]

Well, a big shout out to Leslie, who, hearing our conversation about getting a DeLorean up to 88, sent a Playmobil.

[D]

Set of the Back to the Future set.

[B]

So anyway, let's get to the mailbag.

[C]

All right. So to the mailbag. Good Doctors just wanted to say thank you for sharing the testimony of Emer Harris. This was in a premium episode that came out about a week and a half ago or so.

[D]

If.

[B]

If you ever had a reason to get the premium.

[C]

This was actually really cool.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, I shared something from Emer. Emer Harris, Martin Harris's brother, who gives us some insight into some of the lost portion of the Book of Mormon.

[C]

Yeah. While the possible mention of information from the lost 116 pages was pretty cool, this episode was more personally meaningful to me. My brother's middle name is Harris, and I always knew I was connected to Martin Harris somehow. But when I searched my family tree, it turns out that Emer is my fifth great grandpa.

[B]

So he just found out that Emers is grandpa. That's awesome.

[C]

Both of my parents and four of the seven kids in my family have left the church in the past five years. They are frequently on my mind and in my prayers to hear of my ancestors faithful life in the midst of familial apostasy and his powerful testimony of the truthfulness. Of the work was welcome reassurance of my faith in the Savior and his church. Like the members of that Stake conference congregation, which is in the Provost Central Stake, I believe.

[D]

Yes.

[B]

The Provost Central Stake minutes. Yes.

[D]

From the which state conference.

[B]

He's saying that because as I introduced that on that episode, I said, richard.

[D]

I have a really important source from the Provost Central stake minutes from 1856 General State Conference. Richard's eyes lit it over and he said, oh, really? Super important.

[B]

And that's not a commentary on. On his current stake, but more a commentary on the fact that I pulled up the provost Central Stake.

[C]

Yeah. Shout out to the provost Central Stake. By the way, great record keeping. This got to. There's. There's got to be like.

[B]

There's like 75 stakes probably in Provo.

[C]

Yeah. Not even counting the BYU stakes.

[D]

Well, if we count the BYU once, the world itself could not contain the number of stakes that are in profile. Yeah.

[C]

Like the members of that state conference congregation. I too am glad to hear that, Brother Harris. What Brother Harris had to say of the many month.

[D]

This is.

[C]

This is the best line in the email, by the way, of the many months of premium membership fees I've paid. Today's episode finally made it worth it.

[D]

That's great. Keep up the great work.

[B]

I hate to break that comes from Ryan.

[D]

Ryan. Nothing will ever, ever make it worth it again.

[C]

Wait for the Tooele steak minutes from the 1870s.

[B]

When I did the word of wisdom. I was pulling out some Tooele talks. True.

[C]

This next email comes to us from what I assume is pronounced Danica. Danica Donica.

[B]

Are you just going to throw different ways of pronoun. Why are you so worried about how to pronounce it?

[C]

Well, she says if we pronounce her name right, that she'll sign up for the premium.

[B]

Well, first of all, we know she's not going to.

[D]

Second of all, she could sign up and cancel within seven days.

[C]

She's gonna do a free trial, download.

[D]

Everything, and then look, it's the way to do it.

[B]

Either that or you go on a mission.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

You know, that's what Elder Hales is doing from.

[D]

From the Spanish Fork.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Ysa Stake.

[D]

He.

[B]

He's like, well, I want.

[D]

I want to listen to the premium. I don't have any money, but if I go on a mission, then there we go.

[C]

You know, we got one from Elder Stevenson as well. I think we just have people named.

[B]

After apostles, so we didn't get one from the Elder Stevenson, right?

[D]

Or is that where I need to go? To a.

[C]

He may have had the same first name, but I'm pretty confident he didn't use it. It'd be funny if it's Elder Stevenson, but instead of churchofjesuschrist.org.

[D]

It'S like, church.

[B]

Like there's no r. Well, no, he.

[C]

Goes with the missionaries because he's like, well, if they think it's just the apostle, they're not going to give it to me, so I have to use a missionary. So he contacts the missionary department. Like, hey, I need.

[D]

So you think Gary E. Stevenson, the apostle, would have to obfuscate, pretending that he is a missionary in order to get content from us? That's what you think?

[C]

I'm just saying that there's a Gary and there's a Stevenson and then there's a missionary dot org. That's all I'm saying.

[B]

I. I sleep very well at night.

[D]

Knowing that no one of anything even approaching general authority power listens to us at all.

[C]

So you spoke, you spoke in our, Our ward this last week.

[D]

I, I did.

[C]

You did. You came, you came on Sunday and you spoke in our ward and it was really wonderful. And, and one of my very good friends, dearest friends, Freddie Ashby and his lovely wife Aaron, they, they sang. He sang a song. One of your favorites, I believe. Yeah.

[B]

Oh, Give Me Back My Prophet Dear by John Taylor.

[C]

It was stirring. It was beautiful. You sent me a text because Elder tay of the 70s sometimes may attend our ward. And you just went. Before you spoke, you said, hey.

[B]

It was a couple of seconds before I got up.

[C]

It's not here.

[B]

It's not here.

[C]

Right, so you can talk about atheists because the last time you came and you did speak in award, you did speak about atheism quite a bit. Was it atheism?

[B]

I was quoting an atheist when he.

[C]

Came to visit Nauvoo.

[B]

No, no, I quoted him too. I quoted a socialist. I quoted a socialist and I believe it was an anarcho syndicalist.

[D]

Communist. Yeah. No, no, just an anarcho syndicalist. You quoted Monty Python. Yeah, and.

[B]

Well, no, I asked, I asked if.

[D]

If we'd quoted enough atheists and Bishop.

[B]

Peterson said, yes, yes, we have.

[D]

Right. At the limit.

[C]

Anyway, so this, it comes from Danica. Danica. It's got to be.

[B]

If it's not Danica, maybe it's Danica. Or Danica.

[C]

Danica. Let's pronounce.

[B]

Or Danika.

[C]

I think it's day. Night.

[B]

Danika.

[C]

Yeah. Hey, you Two, I'm living in Pocatello, which is the Pocatello of Idaho, which, as you know, is nearest to Des Moines. And I have been a littner since the beginning.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

But also not really, because I just started listening a year ago. But I did start from the very beginning.

[B]

Well, that's good. She's almost caught up from the beginning.

[C]

Because it's a very good place to start.

[B]

It's always, whenever you see the aftermath of a wreck, you always wish you could go back and see, well, how did that car end up there?

[C]

And my new glasses will be able to show me how.

[D]

If you look at Richard's glasses, you can see before time. The density is. Is. It's basically a neutron star that he's wearing on his head now.

[C]

I'm very sorry. I just get emotional with Danica's email.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

But one of my young women, I was in the presidency when she was a beehive, back when there were still beehives. Is getting ready to leave on her mission, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. No joke.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

No joke. It's not a joke. That's her Joe Biden impression, apparently. And I told her about your podcast. She tried listening to it earlier, but was driving and didn't want to fall asleep.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[C]

By the way, before I do need to say so, I did take Elder Fawcett and Elder Abel of Layton Mission.

[B]

Fame to launch this last Became assistants to the president.

[C]

Both of them became aps. And now look, look. Are they the only missionaries in the mission, the Latent Mission that listen to the podcast? Probably.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

Are they now aps?

[D]

Yes.

[C]

Am I saying it's that there's a correlation? No, I'm saying it's causational. I'm saying that there's a direct line.

[D]

Not even a correlation.

[B]

It's absolutely causational because Elder Abel has been going to zone conferences and saying things like, let me tell you what's.

[D]

In the provost Central Stake minutes that Emer Harris said. And the mission president's like, we gotta.

[C]

We gotta.

[D]

We gotta elevate this guy right to the top. Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

So anyway, I took them to lunch to celebrate their promotion, which is a joke that I've said on the podcast before. My grandmother's Jewish, obviously not a member of the church. I was made a district leader on my mission. She sent me 20 bucks and a letter that said, congratulations on your promotion, which I thought was very funny. I didn't want to correct her because, you know, she sent me money. So anyway.

[B]

And you got her baptized since she's passed, right?

[C]

Yes, actually, we did. Parker baptized my daughter Lily for her.

[D]

How about that?

[C]

And then Rigdon did the. The conversation. It was. It was very sweet. Yeah, it was very bad. Thanks for bringing that.

[D]

Well, you know what?

[B]

It was like a pre tithing she was paying.

[C]

That's right. That's. That's funny. But I figure she's about to head out and won't have anything else to do, so the premium missionary content might turn out to be not so bad. That's when you've got nothing else to do. It's okay. In all seriousness, your podcast is a godsend. Literally. I saw someone, or I saw someone argue that the Book of Mormon was just a copy of this. Well, when you're making the Solomon Spalding argument, just. I've got so many better anti Mormon arguments.

[B]

Frankly, all arguments about where the Book of Mormon come from comes from are just terrible. They're the kind of arguments that a teenager would make when they're trying to convince their parents that they got home on time when they didn't. They're just.

[C]

They're blaming Solomon Spalding manuscript.

[B]

Frankly, if Kai were to do that, it would be a better argument.

[D]

The next.

[B]

Kai, you don't listen to this, but the next time you get home late.

[D]

If you say, dad, I thought it was okay because I read it in the psalmist folding manuscript, I will let you off. It'll be funny.

[C]

You'll laugh.

[B]

Yeah, I'm telling you.

[C]

But I mean, just, it's. It's embarrassing. Anyway, so she says the same. So she sees this on Instagram and instead of freaking her out, it made her laugh, as it should, because the argument is so terrible.

[B]

It's so ridiculous.

[C]

My parents left the church about 13 years ago, and I'm currently the only active member in my family, despite having been born and raised in the church. My parents left because they found out, they quote, found out more about church history and ultimately decided Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet and Jesus was a really good guy, but not the Savior. I can't talk about it too long or it gets my righteous indignation all riled up. And I want to flip some tables, which probably is why I enjoy angry Garrett so much, which is, Garrett, I'm telling you, the people cry out, man.

[D]

They want angry Garrett.

[C]

Well, no, because again, I'm gonna become Zen Garrett. No, we don't want that, Garrett. We want the angry one. Because again, it allows for people to channel their frustration or you channel that in a way that Articulates their frustration. I guess for a long time, I just walked by Faith. I didn't want to know whatever it was they found out. Not that it stopped them sending me an email about it, which is why my. Which my husband read. He said there wasn't anything there he hadn't heard before. Good for your husband. Anyway, when President Nelson presented the restoration proclamation, I listened to it and thought, yeah, duh, we all know that. But then I started to think about how everyone originally received the family proclamation. Basically, the. Is so, so, so, so true. Basically the same. But now it's considered highly controversial. I felt prompted to dig into church history. Through Fall is the podcast we highly recommend you listen to. Before this, by far.

[B]

Yeah. Speaking of people who came and spoke in your ward.

[C]

Oh, Hank Smith.

[B]

Hank came and spoke.

[C]

Rushed.

[B]

When you guys had me speak right after. Like, you guys are terrible.

[C]

Well, so.

[B]

Well, so everybody after I spoke was like, yeah, that wasn't nearly as good as a Hank.

[C]

Well, so, first of all, Hank was supposed to come and speak to our ward. Then it leaked out that he was coming, and then it turned into a steak fireside. I see you still just spoke to our ward.

[D]

Yeah. Right. So. So only your ward was disappointed. That's right.

[B]

That's good.

[D]

That's good.

[C]

She found the episode. Or she found the podcast and has been binging ever. Ever since. The more I learn, the more more I want to learn. Listening to Garrett makes me regret getting my BA In English and leaves me wishing I would have gone into a study of church history instead. Well, you made the right choice, Danica.

[B]

And look, I mean, I don't know what you're currently doing as a family for money, but I. I'm pretty sure.

[D]

Doing history stuff isn't one of the ways to do it.

[C]

Oh, my son Andrew, he's like. He expressed an interest in being an attorney, but wanted to maybe look into history as his bachelor's.

[B]

And I'm like, well, you.

[D]

You.

[B]

It's good. It's good for a law degree, sure.

[D]

But even then, you just don't want.

[B]

It to be an option.

[C]

Have you thought about business? And so he recently is looking into the Marriott School of Business, my understanding, decent school. So I'm very excited about that. I am so excited about not. History's great, Garrett. Yeah, it's very, very good business. Business. I have loved learning more about Joseph Smith and the early Saints. I absolutely love the podcast. I laugh, I cry. I count how many times Garrett says some version of the word fornicate.

[D]

Do I Have like, lots of synonyms for it.

[C]

Well, so there's a couple people that.

[B]

Are forced us hurlbut that's the problem.

[C]

Which while talking about the most aptly named hurlbut. A fornicating fornicator.

[B]

Yeah, he's a.

[C]

He's terrible. Yes, he is. It's. It's an all around good time. I'm hoping to be able to go on a church tour someday. No question. That's that. Just lots of gratitude. Keep up the good work, by the way. So, Garrett, we have released and on this, in the description of this, the tour dates for 2027.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

2026 sold out. And we. You added a. A third tour for 2026. But we have two tours available for 2027 and we offered it to the premium listeners first announced it. We announced it first. It was on the website. Anyone could have gone to it.

[B]

Yes, but unless you're a crazy stalker.

[C]

Yeah, weird to go to.

[D]

Just refresh, refresh, refresh. Someone's sitting there.

[B]

I have got to go on a church history trip in two years.

[C]

So that one has been released, the dates of that have been released, and it is half sold out.

[B]

I'm thinking about doing an American history one that, you know, goes from like Boston to Sharon, Vermont and then back down to Philadelphia.

[C]

I think it'd be fun, but I.

[B]

Haven'T put it up.

[C]

No. Okay, so. So we'll see what the response.

[D]

Yeah, we'll get inundated with emails. You're like, pass.

[C]

She gives the email of the. Of the sister missionary that's going out on her mission. And anyway, it was very. It was very nice of her to respond. So that's very, very good. Now this last email comes to us from Dawson and then is the discussion point or the jumping off point for the episode? I do subject Elder Hyde and World War I. Hello, esteemed doctors. Well, while I am a doctor, esteemed is certainly. I mean, Garrett's esteemed.

[B]

I mean, it's fine. I think we're just fine.

[C]

Okay. I would say there was something, though that I think that Danica said in the last email. You and I had talked about this before. It's just my personal issue. There's. I think that there is a concern of people with church history. She described the situation. She just didn't want to see or know. I hear people talk about putting things on shelves from time to time and I.

[B]

You're not a fan of the shelf?

[C]

I'm not a fan of the shelf because the church history is nothing to be afraid of. It's not. We should be. Incredibly, we've learned a tremendous amount from our history. There's incredible miracles and sacrifice and things that happen in our history. And the idea of putting difficult doctrine on the shelf, while I suppose is better than apostasy, I think, yeah.

[D]

I mean, look, if anyone's listening, he's like, look, if it's not a shelf.

[C]

It'S either a shelf or I'm out. I think that the greater. And. And maybe it's it. And I. I'm. I'm probably. I probably need to relax. I need to be more. More Zen.

[B]

But you think probably.

[C]

I think for sure you're telling everyone.

[D]

Listening if they use a shelf metaphor.

[C]

So my thing is that I think you should gain a testimony of the thing.

[B]

Right?

[C]

That's what I think you should do. I think polygamy is hard. I think there are lots of things that are hard. And I think that we should seek to gain testimonies of these things, because to put things on the shelf is to essentially say, look, I have a testimony of this, but I won't be willing to talk about these things. And I. I just disagree with that.

[B]

And it opens up. It opens up the possibility of someone using that then against you.

[C]

Because if it's something that you're putting on the shelf, then you have a. Gaining a testimony of the thing, then takes it down. And even as hard of a thing as it might be anyway, she talked.

[B]

About that at least using proper sources to try to find. Find what explanations exist. And for some things, you know, explanations aren't really going to exist or they're going to be really bad. I mean, nothing's going to be as bad as the Solomon Spalding manuscript, but. But they're not going to be fulfilling. And we do have to walk by faith. And so I can understand why people use the metaphor saying, well, I can't get that all the way figured out yet. But I think what Richard's saying is that for a lot of things, look, you don't need to put is the Book of Mormon copied from the book the Late War on your shelf. No, that's not a shelf item. No, that it might come across as a shelf item simply because we haven't.

[D]

Heard of it before.

[B]

And so our immediate reaction is a negative thing. But it's one of those things that you can look into and not just go, that's not a very good argument. You'll actually come away saying, I'm outraged that someone would belittle my faith to the point where they would think that this would affect me, I think if.

[C]

You put too many things on a shelf, Garrett, what happens to the shelf?

[B]

Your wife gets angry at you for cluttering up the shelf, and then when you're gone, goes up and quote, unquote, cleans your office.

[C]

As a historian, just so many books.

[D]

There'S a lot of things on a lot of shelves.

[C]

I was thinking more that, you know, that the shelf can break if there's. If there's too much weight on the shelf.

[B]

Well, and look, we don't have answers for everything, but I understand that. Why? You know, the analogies, you saying, well, I don't have an answer for this, but I'm going to just keep on having the faith, and I hope that people do that. At the same time, the best way to gain a testimony of something that is difficult or uncertain is to go to the best sources. Now, notice I didn't say to some excommunicated members YouTube channel that's not the best source. Go to the best sources and read and think and pray about it. Now, that doesn't mean you're going to get an answer immediately, but very often when people are struggling with a topic from church history, they haven't gone to the best sources at all. But they have spent all kinds of time wallowing in the mire of antagonistic, unacademic sources designed to destroy faith. And when they come up out of the mire, they say, I can't believe it. I don't have a testimony anymore. So you were reading a whole bunch of things designed to destroy your testimony. You weren't reading anything designed by people to help you keep a testimony. And stunningly, you ended up losing a testimony.

[C]

I think that's why I liked Danica's email so much, is because it was a fear that she had. And she's like, look, this is. This takes people down, and I want to do something about it. And so she starts, like everyone should, by listening to the Follow him podcast.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Reading her scriptures, doing these things, and then eventually stumbles onto ours. But I think that she now has a testimony of these things, or at least is no longer afraid of church history. And her previous lack of information and knowledge in it is the thing that was fearful that. That she. There was something out there that then would take her away. Yeah, and it's. It's the. It's the quote that you share from Lyman Johnson. It is one of my favorite quotes of all quotes. Right. Of how desperately he wished.

[B]

I wish I could still Believe in Mormonism as I once did. I would give my right arm if I could Believe in Mormonism as I once did. And he says that, you know, he was happy then when he believed it.

[C]

And he's miserable now.

[B]

Yeah, and. And I think that one of the important things, and we talk about it all the time on the podcast, but is when you are going through a mini faith crisis, when you're trying to build a new shelf with some carpentry tools, it's very important that you stop and think about the things that you know are true from the Holy Spirit and how essential those things are. Things like modern prophets, things like the Book of Mormon, things like the belief that you have a premortal life. Things like the idea that families can be together forever and not in some fake Protestant way where you're like, well, I mean, we'll kind of, like, be there. I mean, we'll be in the same place. You just won't care about each other because you'll be in the presence of Jesus, so it won't matter. But, I mean, it's the purpose of this life to become like our heavenly Father. And so I think it always when. When you get slapped in the face with some kind of antagonistic argument you haven't heard before, take a step back, realize that it was delivered with ill intent, and realize that there are many, many, many people who have heard all of these terrible arguments and still are certain that the church is true. And hopefully this podcast helps people with that.

[C]

Back to Dawson's email. Hello, esteemed doctors. I would say it's great to have football season back, but I'd be lying since I now have to hear YouTube banter about betting on.

[D]

We did talk about the podcast.

[B]

We're sorry. Yeah, I didn't know that was in the email before.

[C]

Parenthetically, insert President Hinckley's April 2005 talk on gambling here. And the fact that my Boise State Broncos were a monumental embarrassment in Week one. They sure were. Oh, my gosh, you so usf.

[B]

You rarely see a score that makes you go double check the score. Like, you rarely see one where you're like, wow, you know, it was.

[C]

It was like a 3:30 kick. It was like a super early game. And I got to watch, like, the first quarter and a half where it was, you know, close because Boise State.

[B]

Scored a touchdown to start the game right. And then just never right ever, ever again.

[C]

So bad. And then I had to work, you know, it. And I came back to this and the blowout. Yeah, but you just don't walk into, you know, Tampa.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

And come out into the South Florida Bulls thinking that they've got this.

[C]

They have a Gramatica as their kicker. By the way, is he like the son of. The son of Martin Gramatica? Grammatica was at the game. They, they.

[D]

So.

[C]

So he's saying how much he hates.

[D]

The podcast during football season because Team Grammatica. Yeah.

[B]

Just stayed in Tampa after he retired.

[C]

Well, you don't leave. One doesn't just simply leave Tampa.

[B]

I mean, there's other.

[C]

He's probably Clearwater, but still.

[D]

Yeah. So. And his son didn't leave Tampa either, Just stayed there.

[C]

No, he's a. He's a. Yeah, he's a fighting bull kicker and he, he nailed like a 48 yarder or 52 yard or something like that. Nailed it.

[B]

I remember automatica.

[C]

He did. He celebrated. He had a. He had a muted celebration which they joked about as they were commentating because I believe Martin was jumping all around and hurt himself.

[B]

Yes. Remember when he pulled his Achilles or something? Jumping around.

[D]

Yep.

[C]

Yes. So anyway, so he, he's not excited for football season because we talk about football.

[B]

We don't ever talk about football. I don't know what you're talking about.

[C]

But yes, I love, I love. I grew up in Western Idaho, so I love Boise State. I went there for my undergrad or finished there in my undergrad. I started at the byu. Byu. I also love their football team. And then obviously Oklahoma State. Go Pokes. So there we go. Yeah, Boise. Say, that was. That was disappointing. Anyways, I'm a frequent litner of the podcast and have written in a couple of times having one of my emails read on the show.

[B]

Well, we're giving him a double read.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Boy, we gotta.

[C]

Which I'm very.

[B]

We're gonna have to limit you going forward.

[C]

You guys do incredible work and help so many people by providing much needed historical context to church history as well as addressing concerns and ideas that flood the Internet all the time. I question for you guys today is in regards to Joseph Smith's Civil War prophecy. You guys have discussed at length how incredible that prophecy is in the past, but I recently heard something about it and that I never heard before, and that is Orson Hyde's commentary on the prophecy in a letter to the editor of the Missouri Republican on January 1, 1862, where he states, quote, when the demon of war shall have exhausted his strength and madness upon the American soil by the destruction of all that can court or provoke opposition excite cupidity inspire revenge or feed ambition. He will remove his headquarter to the bank of the Rhine. Of course, in hindsight we can see that this would be in reference to World War I and World War II sprouting out of Europe and heavily involving the evils and atrocities committed by the Nazi regime in Germany. Which of course sheds more light on the part of Joseph's prophecy that discusses war pouring out on all nations. I would love to hear your thoughts about this, especially since in over two decades of membership, this is the first I'm hearing about it and I've had to scour the Internet to even find a quote, to even find the quote for myself. So even though I'd love to believe this is legitimate, I just want to be sure that I'm not participating in confirmation. Confirmation bias in doing so. Thanks again for all you do. You guys are awesome. Dawson.

[B]

Well, sorry we talked about football, but thank you for the question. So I guess I don't know how.

[D]

Really to approach this except to say.

[B]

Look, we do talk about doctrine covenant, section 87 a lot in part.

[C]

We just re released it by the way. We just re released that a couple of weeks ago, the full thing and for people to listen.

[B]

And part of the reason why it comes up is it's of course it's kind of like Jesus prophesying that there would be no stone left on top of another for the temple. It's a pretty, it's a pretty stark revelation. I mean, either there's going to be a temple or there's not going to be a temple. And then of course in AD 70, the Romans make sure there's no temple.

[C]

They do.

[B]

They, they. And that is not who I named my son after, but General. And then Emperor Titus is the one in.

[C]

I was, I was in. I was in Rome on a work incentive trip. I took the, the several pictures of. Of the arch there with the menorahs all over.

[B]

Titus, the, the. The Titus's triumph.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And his father Vespasian was the one who undertook it. And then, and then is this. See, would you rather me talk about Roman emperors or would you rather me talk about what the line is on the Northwestern State football?

[C]

So yeah, Eagles minus seven and a half tonight.

[D]

So.

[B]

Interestingly, I mean so one, one of the things about prophecy though is unless we have a prophet who interprets the prophecy for us, you will always have a lot of people thinking that what's going on is, is in fact the interpretation. In fact, on our Search these Commandments podcast, the Next one we're doing is Doctrine and Covenant, Section 29. And I told Richard, I've got some trepidation doing it just because it's about. At least a healthy portion of it is about the second coming. And whenever you talk about the second coming of Jesus, this is going to come as a surprise to many of you. But there are a lot of people who have lots of opinions about what means what whenever things are discussed. I mean, frankly, there have been so many people that have been the Antichrist that would bring about the second coming. In my lifetime, in my lifetime, there have been like a dozen different people that have been, oh yeah, they're the Antichrist. They're the Antichrist. Because people are trying to make.

[D]

The.

[B]

Revelation or John's revelation fit into their worldview. Part, part of the reason why we talk about the Civil War prophecy a lot is one, it's just so stark coming from a 19th century historian. The fact that Joseph is so specific that it's going to be over slavery, that it's going to be in. It's going to start in South Carolina, that it's going to terminate in the deaths of many souls, that, you know, warfare is going to spread, that slaves are going to be marshaled against their masters. And I think I talk about it a lot because the general lack of knowledge from that time period between 1830 and 1860 when the secession happens, it's so poorly known by your average American. I mean, you probably don't have a lot of people, you know, walking around talking about William Henry Harrison's platform. I mean, you do have people say Tippecanoe and Tyler too.

[C]

Oh.

[B]

Still remember that.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You can't, you can't go anywhere in Delta, Utah.

[B]

Well, and remember Rumsey Dumpsey. Rumsey Dumpsey. Colonel Johnson shot. Yes. So that also powerful.

[D]

Just.

[B]

He did not win.

[C]

That was. By the way, that was my mom's.

[B]

Favorite episode was Rumsey Dumpsy.

[C]

She. She laughed at that. She texted me about it. That was her favorite. That wasn't.

[B]

Listen since then.

[C]

Well, she listens, but she hasn't found one better than that.

[B]

I see. I see.

[D]

There's no other reason to comment.

[B]

So what happened when we talk about confirmation bias? I mean, because the American Civil War is the biggest deal that's ever happened in American history. It seems inevitable to us. It's kind of the same problem when you talk about the road to World War II. I mean, obviously in hindsight you see that Neville Chamberlain making an agreement with Adolf Hitler over, you know, Czechoslovakia is not you know, all it did was fuel Hitler's war ambitions and it didn't. You can tell that now. But you didn't know what was going to happen.

[C]

Because what is good old Neville say when he comes back?

[B]

He says, I have secured peace for our time. And you know, a year and a half later there, World War II starts.

[C]

But what's, what's time like a year and a half?

[B]

Yeah. So maybe Neville Chamber was like, I secured peace for our next 74 minutes.

[C]

You know, it's fair.

[B]

Well, maybe he was wearing your glasses and it was bending around. So part of the reason why I talk about it a lot is I find it the least of the arguments that are made against Joseph Smith. Because this is such a powerful prophecy. You have people say things all the time not knowing that what they're saying is ridiculously inaccurate. So they'll say things like, well, everybody.

[D]

Knew there was going to be a civil war.

[B]

Okay, by everybody you mean nobody. Or you know what, let's go find the person in 1835 who is a prominent politician who is adamant saying that there's going to be a civil war, that it's going to be bloody and it's going to be awful. You'll notice that they won't create a very long list of those people or any list at all. They'll just say something like, everyone knew there was going to be a war, but then provide no evidence. And why don't they have to provide evidence? Exactly. Because of confirmation bias. Because to us, nothing matters more in American history than the Civil War. And the only thing we can think about when we think about the Civil War is the fact that slavery existed. Those two things, the Civil War and slavery, are the most prominent part of, of 19th century history to most Americans. In fact, it's probably the only thing that most Americans would know at all from the 19th century if you asked him name an event that happened in the 1800s. Civil War. Civil War, yep. What was the Civil War over? Slavery. Those would be the two things they would know. So we tend to view everything leading up to it in terms of, of it. And that causes people to poo poo. You know, Joseph Smith's revelation. I mean, you could do the same thing to Jesus, right? Because Jesus said, yeah, the Romans are going to come destroy this temple. And you know, in hindsight, it's very easy. Like, how could anyone in Israel have thought that the Roman temple, you know, the Romans were going to destroy the temple. The temple is massive. The temple's huge. Israel is in an alliance with Rome. So how in the world could this ever possibly be the case? But in hindsight, people look back like, oh, yeah, I mean, obvious. It's obvious that it was going to be destroyed. In fact, I find it one of the least credible arguments that exists among New Testament scholars when they're trying to date the Gospels because they don't want to say that the Gospels could be dated any earlier than AD 70. Why? Because all the Gospels say the temple is going to be destroyed. So what's more likely? That Jesus's followers after the fact said.

[D]

Oh, by the way, he also said the temple was going to be destroyed. I forgot to write that down.

[B]

Or that Jesus predicted perfectly exactly the destruction of the temple. And, and so sure, it might be more likely, but just like our bad football picks, occasionally they'll be right. And, and, and so likelihood is not the same thing as, as proof. And oftentimes, especially when you're dealing with ancient history, that's what people do when you're dealing with American history. The Civil War is such a mammoth, gigantic aspect of our history that we interpret the past based upon how massive it was to us thinking that everyone leading up to it must have known just how terrible it was going to be. Let me share something with you from a Charleston newspaper. So, Charleston, South Carolina, where, Where the Civil War begins. It begins. I mean, someday on. On condemned to repeated, we'll talk about the American Civil War.

[C]

That's hilarious. We will not.

[B]

I mean, we're almost to the Federalist Papers, right?

[C]

Yeah, I will. By the time we talk about the Civil War, I will be using some sort of a braille device in order.

[D]

To be able to see it all.

[C]

Not at all.

[B]

It's a good thing that we're an audio medium. You don't need to see anything.

[C]

It's true. It's true. And honestly, if my vision gets worse, will I be able to read more? Poorly? Not possible.

[B]

Well, didn't we already have AI read some letters for you?

[C]

It did a great job.

[B]

So why don't we do that again?

[C]

You know what? We should.

[B]

Okay, yes, but let's do AI in the voice of, like, Hulk Hogan, you know what?

[C]

Out of respect and memoriam and memorial of him.

[B]

Or maybe, maybe, you know, it doesn't have to be. Let's just do Sylvester Stallone reading our letters.

[C]

Maybe we should do like, you know, maybe we should do people from history and have it say, hey, this is.

[B]

Like Winston Churchill reading our letters.

[C]

I want somebody where we don't any voice from them I see.

[B]

We're just making it up.

[D]

Gagas Kahn reading our letters.

[C]

I was thinking a U.S. president.

[D]

You know what?

[C]

I'm on it.

[D]

I want Genghis Khan.

[B]

I. I want Skanderbeg, the Albanian general.

[D]

And. And I also want.

[C]

What year is that?

[B]

1600.

[C]

Okay, very good. My Albanian history only goes to about the 1700s.

[B]

How about give me. Give me Charlemagne?

[C]

Oh, first of all, that'd be good. Get some French up in here. Yeah, you know what?

[B]

You know, for you, be funny.

[C]

Charlemagne would have like a, like a super, like, obnoxious French ass.

[B]

Ridiculous French accent.

[C]

Let's do Charlemagne.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

Okay, so we're going to have Charlemagne read some of our letters.

[D]

So the.

[B]

To give you just a brief overview of the start of the Civil war. Back in the day, presidents didn't take office until March, and so the lame duck period was gigantic. People get frustrated with the lame duck period for American presidents now. But it's just November to January. It used to be November to March. So it used to be essentially five months, four and a half months of lame duck period. And during that time period, so after Lincoln's elected, South Carolina votes to secede. And then all of the deep south states, Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Louisiana, they all vote to secede. They start taking over federal arsenals, they start taking over federal forts. And James Buchanan does what James Buchanan does best.

[C]

Nothing.

[B]

Nothing?

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

If you had a scorecard on things that James Buchanan does, well, the. It would be an empty scorecard. And so when, by the time Lincoln actually takes office, these states have formed their own Confederacy for months. They've been training soldiers for months. Meanwhile, Buchanan's done nothing. But people still don't really know whether or not it's actually going to become a war. Just like I've used the analogy before, if tomorrow California declared its independence from the United States, like the California legislature said, you know what? We're independent. Most Americans would not actually think that B2 bombers would be hitting LA. Okay. They would. They would think, Okay, I get it, a little bit of a temper tantrum going on. They're going to resolve this, and things are going to be fine.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So while people have consternation, they don't actually know what's going on. Well, one of the forts that's still controlled by the federal government is Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor. And the South Carolinians are demanding that the federal troops leave because Fort Sumter is their sovereign territory. And it's going to become this flashpoint because there's federal troops there. What do you do? South Carolina's made it very clear that if you try to reinforce them, then we'll consider that an act of war. And all you can do is come get them. And so Lincoln is faced with that when he first starts. But this is from March 12th. March 12th of 1861. Okay, the. The firing on fort Sumter is basically a month after this. So the war starts a month after this. South Carolina newspaper says this. The intelligence contained in our telegraphic column today will gratify our readers. Fort sumter is to be ours without a fight. All will be rejoiced that the blood of our people won't be shed in our harbor in either small or a great degree. To those who have troubled themselves with the vague fears of war on a large scale and the horrors of war extensively, this relief will be as great as their amp as their apprehension had been grievous. So essentially, you know, you were. You were stupid to think that there was ever going to be any great conflict anyway. But for those few people that, you know, had put up in their minds, oh, no, it's going to be a terrible war. This should settle you all down. This is one month before the firing on for sumter in the beginning of the civil war. For ourselves, notwithstanding all the northern thunder, we have never been able to bring ourselves to seriously believe in the probability of any more than a few collisions sufficient to show that we are in earnest and competent to make good our position of independence against our would be masters. This is a pretty common view. You also have many newspapers in the border states where, you know, have a lot of southern leanings. They're slave states that are saying things like, well, how could the north ever possibly conquer the south? I mean, even if there was a war, the north would realize within the first six months that there's no possible way to conquer the south. And that'd be the end of the war. To give you an idea, Virginia, because they're very worried. They haven't yet seceded. They secede after Lincoln calls for troops to go after the firing in fort Sumter. Virginia decides that they need to beef up their military. And it's all. It's quite scandalous, in fact, because they make call for the Virginia state militia to be raised to a guard force to be raised to 10 to 20,000 men. And people are like, oh, my goodness. I mean, remember, the standing army of the United States at this time is 8,000 men. So Virginia is calling for a military that is more than twice the size of the federal Government's military. Okay, that number, 15,000, 20,000, wherever you want to put it, is 10%, 10% of the number of Virginians who actually fight in the Civil War for the South. And that's not counting the Virginians that fight for the north, because West Virginia breaks off from Virginia during the war. So there's actually thousands of Virginians that fight for the north, but over 160,000 Virginians will ultimately fight for the South. But people thought it was scandalous that Virginia is calling for a 10 to 20,000 man enlistment. So it's easy in hindsight to look back and be like, oh, yeah, everybody knew. I mean, the fact that Joseph said it would be in South Carolina. How did Joseph know that one of the only. One of the only forts that was not evacuated by the federal government just so happened to be the fort in Charleston harbor in South Carolina? Because there are lots of harbor forts that were just simply abandoned by the fort Federals or taken over without any conflict by these Southern states. Not just lucky Joseph. He just keeps guessing right now detractors will say things like, well, yeah, but I mean, everyone knew it'd be South Carolina because they had just tried to nullify the tariff bill. And so then they'll talk out. Out of both sides of their mouth. They'll say, well, of course he picked South Carolina because South Carolina had just tried to nullify the tariffs and Andrew Jackson was threatening this to march an army down to force them to comply with federal law. Well, okay, so let's take your argument. Joseph's just reading the newspaper. He sees that South Carolina has nullified federal law. And so he's like, yeah, you know what? I'm going to like, have a revelation that says they do it again, only this time it actually causes an actual civil war. But if he was just reading the paper, wouldn't he just say South Carolina is going to again try to nullify federal tax laws? Because that's literally what had happened. Why would he say it would be over slavery? Especially in 1832 when the arguments over slavery are as muted as they have ever been in the last 20 years, basically, especially during Andrew Jackson's presidency? Because Andrew Jackson had a postmaster, which we've talked about before. On other. Have we talked about him or do I just hate him?

[C]

Personally, I think both. I think you both hate him. And we've talked about.

[B]

I feel like I talk about people that I hate a lot. Yo. I mean, present company accepted. Yeah, I mean, but. But there. Andrew Jackson had a postmaster.

[D]

Who.

[B]

Refused to Even deliver abolitionist mail to post offices in the South.

[C]

I feel like we have talked about him.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, it's Amos Kendall.

[C]

I feel like we have.

[B]

Yeah. So we talked about him because he also tries to defraud the Mormons later. So a little bit of repression of the males, a little bit of repression of the right to petition for slavery to end, and also a little bit of repression of Mormons. There's a lot. I feel like there's a lot going on.

[C]

Going on.

[B]

You have to have your finger in a lot of pies in the 19th century. Sure. You're going to be defrauding people.

[D]

That's.

[B]

That's part of it.

[D]

It's part of.

[B]

It's part of it. It's part of it, as Dr. McInerney would say. So I know I've given a lot of a prelude here, and I haven't quite answered the question. Welcome to the podcast. I don't have time to answer it all this episode.

[C]

Oh, that's hilarious.

[B]

So this is like the worm, the working up. Well, we spent a lot of time talking about Danica's.

[C]

The shelves as well. Yeah.

[B]

So let me share one more article before we get to the article in question. So the best thing to do is someone asked me a question. I don't respond to it. I respond to a different question. This is called the Standard of Truth podcast.

[D]

And.

[B]

And so if we're going to do a part two on this, well, then let's. Let's be geared up for it when we do it. Just one more example of people not. I mean, look, there are some. Obviously there's some trepidation. That's what the South Carolina newspaper is referring to as it makes fun of people for thinking that the war is going to be bloody. You have another commentary, this time in a. In a Missouri newspaper. Again, a border state. It's a slave state, but has a very strong union sentiment in the St. Louis area and a very, very strong secession sentiment in the western portions of the state. In the Jackson county, we like to kill Mormons area. I don't know if it's called that. Is it called that? Is that. It was unofficial.

[C]

I think that's their motto, but I don't see.

[B]

Okay, yeah, yeah, Jackson county, don't let the sun go down on you Mormons. That's their motto. So here this newspaper is talking about how terrible it might be, but it goes on to say this, this wretched catastrophe. This is January 1st of 1861. So. So states have already seceded. South Carolina has already seceded. These other states are already putting in their. Their conventions to secede. This wretched catastrophe may be averted. The secession of South Carolina or even all of the Gulf states will make not the secession of South Carolina or even all of the Gulf states would make civil war inevitable. War is not the necessary consequence of the secession in view of the probability that no considerable part of our people are so wrong headed as to be capable of neither making nor listening to reasonable terms of accommodation. If our people are as enlightened as they've always claimed to be, it is not too much to hope for an adjustment that will restore the integrity of the Union and ensure its stability for many years.

[C]

So wait, now this is. This is 1860.

[B]

This is 1861.

[C]

Ah.

[B]

This is after states have already seceded, but before the first shots have been fired.

[C]

So not in the late 30s.

[B]

So it's not in 1832. Stunningly.

[C]

Okay, yeah.

[B]

Interesting how that works.

[C]

Okay, so 30 years later and they're still saying, look, war is not inevitable.

[B]

And the funny part about that is, even when South Carolina did nullify the laws in 1832, they tried to get the other southern states to side with them.

[D]

And as soon as Andrew Jackson said, I'm going to be getting an army, they're like, we're out. We had nothing to do with this.

[B]

They were like that friend who keeps, like, pushing the big guy who's, who's mad at you. Like, yeah, no, no, you should take him out, Richard. You should take him out. And then the guy starts to swing and that guy's gone like he's nowhere to be found.

[D]

That's what Mississippi did to South Carolina. Mississippi's like, yeah, this tariff is wrong.

[B]

I think South Carolina is right.

[D]

Oh, you're sending an army. Yeah.

[B]

Like, I've always respected the federal government, and we think that we want to pay more tariffs. Actually, we want to pay more in.

[D]

Tariffs than we're paying before as the army's marching down to South Carolina.

[B]

So if you're an American who went through the nullification crisis or knows about it in your history, you know, you may not be 30 years old at this point. The last time this happened, there was a lot of, oh, no, will this be a rebellion? Will this cause a war? What will happen? And Andrew Jackson marshaled the army, started to march down to South Carolina and didn't even come close to getting there before South Carolina said, oh, we were just funning. Yeah, we were fun.

[D]

And y'. All.

[B]

We were fun and y'.

[D]

All.

[B]

It Wasn't, don't worry, no nullification here. And they tried to get other states to join them and they didn't. So when Joseph Smith says that other states are going to join South Carolina, that's not what recent events said. In fact American history is demonstrative of the opposite. In the War of 1812 the Great, the great Senator Douglas, Stephen Douglas, who you know at one point was a latter day Saint ally and then pushed the army going to Utah, you know, because it's hard to believe a politician would change their opinion based upon getting votes. But Stephen Douglas was one of these rare politicians who was willing to change his position on the basis of getting votes.

[C]

I don't believe it.

[B]

It's crazy. We don't see it anymore now. But then ah, Stephen Douglas would just change his votes. But even he pointed out after the secession is going on, he said the first time anyone even talked about secession was at the Hartford Convention during the War of 1812. So during the War of 1812 the roles were completely reversed. The south wanted war against Great Britain and the south, you know, they stood to gain a lot from it because Britain had been funding and supplying Native American tribes in the Southeast. And the northern states were the ones that were hit the hardest. I mean if you live in Connecticut, nearly all of the economy in Connecticut and Massachusetts and New Hampshire back then is in some way related to shipping and trade. Well when you go to war with the country that has the largest navy on earth, that's not going to be very helpful for those, those industries. And so these New England states were so opposed to the war even after it was, this is an official war, Congress voted on it that in 1814 they actually got together in Hartford and they had a convention to discuss how do we resist being a part of this war? How do we resist James Madison's administration? And one of the proposals that was put up at the Hartford convention was, was why don't we New England states just secede and become our own country? Now it was put up at the convention, it was voted down at the convention pretty decisively so. But unfortunately for the members of the Hartford convention, almost immediately after the news broke about their vote to think about seceding from the Union, the news arrived that Andrew Jackson had just routed the British at the Battle of New Orleans. And then the news arrived a week after that that the British had signed a peace treaty. So talk about your all time backfires right here you have all of these northern politicians on record talking about becoming traitors to their country. Weeks before the very war they were protesting ended in victory for the Americans.

[C]

Yikes.

[B]

It's an all time backfire. It's like telling Tulane they can't wear their Hurricane Katrina uniforms.

[C]

Yeah, you're gonna lose by 20.

[B]

You're have to look that up. You're gonna have to look that up. Jake Retzlaff. So if you were, if you were just guessing based on history, what would you guess? Would you guess that there would be a war where people would actually start killing each other? Or would you guess that like the two other times someone tried to put together a confederacy of states, that it would fall apart because Americans have more nationalism than they do this, this fealty to some state? So the arguments to me have always been incredibly hollow. They take 21st century Americans views on the coming of the American Civil War and paste them unnaturally onto the past and then blithely say to a believing Latter Day Saint, oh, I can't believe you believe that. I mean, that's not even a very good prediction. We've made fun of it before where people say things like, I mean, and.

[D]

It said that slaves would rise up.

[B]

Against their masters and they didn't even do it. I mean, you do realize that literally hundreds of thousands of slaves were put into the Union Army.

[D]

That's not the same thing as rising up.

[C]

But only hundreds of thousands.

[B]

Yeah, only hundreds. Only 20 times the amount of the entire federal army at the time. Joseph Smith said. Said it only that. Only 20 times the amount of the entire US Army. Only that much. Yeah, yeah, but only that.

[C]

Well, so that's, that's why I put that, this revelation on a shelf.

[D]

Garrett, this is on your shelf because you're like, there's no way this could be possibly true.

[B]

I mean, arguments for this, about this revelation are so terrible. I actually confronted an anti Mormon the other day on the Internet. I don't want you to think that I'm just on the Internet attacking anti Mormons.

[C]

People want to believe it.

[B]

Occasionally. I'm on the Internet attacking, obviously under an assumed name.

[C]

It's, it's, it's an egg. Well, like an egg is attacking him.

[B]

Tearing Tam Krid.

[D]

It's my name backwards. I, I, I, I, I'm like Rumpelstiltskin. You gotta get me to say my name backwards. And.

[B]

But this person was arguing, this was part of their argument. And they were a Christian, anti Mormon. So they were a Christian saying Joseph's a false prophet, even though Mormons say that he's a true prophet.

[D]

Sure.

[B]

They point to this. But that revelation wasn't put into their Doctrine and covenants until 1877 or 1876. So that just shows that it was made up after the fact. Now I understand why they might make that argument. I also understand how ridiculously idiotic the argument is because we have literally dozens of manuscript copies of that revelation in all kinds of people's handwriting, all throughout the 1830s and 1840s. And I said that to this person who responded, well, how do I know that those weren't forged later? And so I sent him the original publication of the Pearl of Great Price in England, which includes Doctrine and covenants section 87 in it, published in 1851, clearly years after the Civil War. What's interesting is that they were shown to be so ridiculously wrong, and they didn't even admit how wrong they were. Their response after I sent that to them, and there's no way you can get away from it. It's got the publication date on there. It's the original. They said, well, it doesn't really matter because anyone still could have said it. Well, that didn't really matter. Why were you making the argument? It's very odd. I'm making this argument to prove my point. Right up until my point is proven to be erroneous, then it doesn't matter at all. Well, then why are you talking about it? If it doesn't matter, let it not matter. You're saying it matters anyway. So in our next episode, I'm going to finally read Orson Hyde's letter, but I'm also going to provide some context surrounding it so that you can get an understanding of how Latter Day Saints are feeling with the coming of the American Civil War. So thank you so much for joining us.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.