Standard of Truth Podcast – S5E37

Episode Title: Orson Hyde and the Prophecy of the Civil War Part 1
Release Date: September 4, 2025
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Dr. Richard L. Leduc

Episode Overview

This episode marks the beginning of a two-part dive into Orson Hyde’s 1862 commentary on Joseph Smith’s prophecy of the Civil War (Doctrine & Covenants 87), with a spotlight on Hyde’s prediction that the "demon of war" would move from America to Europe—reviewed in historical hindsight as possibly alluding to the World Wars. The hosts address a listener’s question about the authenticity and context of Hyde’s letter, providing extensive historical background about the Civil War prophecy, its place in Latter-day Saint thought, and the critique (and misunderstanding) it has received over the years.

Throughout, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc employ their signature blend of scholarly analysis, faith-building commentary, and humor (often at their own expense). While the specific reading and analysis of Hyde’s letter is set for the next episode, this part lays the essential historical groundwork in a lively and accessible way.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mailbag Listener Emails

• Faith & Church History Struggles: Multiple emails highlight personal challenges with church history, apostasy in families, and regaining faith through better sources and learning.

  • Danica’s email: Shares her journey as the only active LDS member in her family and how digging into church history and the podcast helped dispel fear and build conviction. (20:09–22:59)
  • Ryan’s email: Expresses gratitude for hearing about his ancestor Emer Harris, and the reassurance this brought about faith in the midst of doubting family situations. (09:21–12:06)

• The “Shelf” Metaphor for Difficult Issues (24:57–30:07)

  • Dr. Leduc critiques the common member approach to “putting things on a shelf” rather than actively seeking testimony of difficult topics—encourages engaging with the best sources, not antagonistic or anti-Mormon ones.
  • Quote:
    “[...] the church history is nothing to be afraid of. It’s not. We should be—there’s incredible miracles and sacrifice and things that happen in our history. And the idea of putting difficult doctrine on the shelf, while I suppose is better than apostasy, I think—yeah.” (25:23–25:51, Dr. Leduc)

2. Framing the Civil War Prophecy and Its Historical Context

• Doctrine and Covenants 87’s Significance:

  • Prophecy’s specificity—over the location (South Carolina), the issue (slavery), and the scope (war poured out on all nations).
  • Host frustration with attempts to diminish the prophecy’s uniqueness by claiming "everybody saw the Civil War coming."
  • Quote:
    “You’ll notice that they won’t create a very long list of those [in 1835 who predicted civil war] or any list at all. They’ll just say something like, everyone knew there was going to be a war, but then provide no evidence.” (43:19–43:33, Dr. Dirkmaat)

• Historical Myopia and Confirmation Bias:

  • Dr. Dirkmaat explains how modern assumptions cloud historical thinking—while Civil War seems inevitable to us, it was often seen as unlikely or preventable even as late as 1861.
  • Eyewitness sources:
    • Charleston newspaper (March 12, 1861): Predicts no major bloodshed in Charleston over Fort Sumter, downplays likelihood of a major war just one month before the conflict begins. (50:49–51:50)
    • Missouri newspaper (Jan 1, 1861): "Secession of South Carolina or even all of the Gulf states will make not—[...] would make civil war inevitable. War is not the necessary consequence of the secession." (59:55–61:21)
  • Comparison to Jesus’ destruction of the temple prophecy—what seems obvious in hindsight was shocking and improbable at the time. (39:56–45:48)

• Actual Context of 1830s America:

  • The 1832–1835 context: The American union was still seen as stable, and divisions—while real—were not universally expected to escalate to violent conflict.
  • Nullification Crisis: When South Carolina nullified federal tariffs in 1832, other Southern states didn’t join, and federal intervention solved the issue with no war.
  • "If you were just guessing based on history, what would you guess? Would you guess that there would be a war... or would you guess, like the two other times someone tried to put together a confederacy of states, that it would fall apart?" (66:28–66:34, Dr. Dirkmaat)

3. Critiques, Apologetics, and Predictions about War Spreading

• Defending the Prophecy:

  • Arguments trivializing the prophecy ("everybody knew about Civil War") do not withstand historical scrutiny, as contemporaries did not expect a massive, bloody war.
  • Even in early 1861, newspapers and politicians doubted significant conflict would occur.
  • The prophecy’s details—escalation to other nations, involvement of "remnants," and slaves being marshaled against their masters—are cited as both specific and extraordinary for the time.
  • Quote:
    “I find it one of the least credible arguments that exists among New Testament scholars when they’re trying to date the Gospels, because they don’t want to say that the Gospels could be dated any earlier than AD 70. Why? Because all the Gospels say the temple is going to be destroyed. So what’s more likely? That Jesus’s followers after the fact said, ‘Oh, by the way, he also said the temple was going to be destroyed. I forgot to write that down.’ Or that Jesus predicted perfectly exactly the destruction of the temple.” (45:48–47:05, Dr. Dirkmaat)

• On Anti-Mormon Arguments:

  • Example of internet criticism about the D&C 87 prophecy’s inclusion in LDS scripture: Despite anti-Mormon claims, contemporary documentary evidence (manuscripts and 1851 English Pearl of Great Price) shows the prophecy predates the Civil War and is not a later invention. (68:21–69:09)

• Orson Hyde’s Letter & Prophecies of European War:

  • The listener’s original prompt draws attention to Orson Hyde’s 1862 letter, supposedly predicting war moving to Europe—interpreted in hindsight as hinting at World Wars.
  • Hosts do not yet read the letter in this episode; next episode promises close examination and context around Hyde’s commentary.
  • The hosts note how hindsight and confirmation bias can lead to over-interpretation but also recognize the boldness of Hyde’s statements given their timing and background.

4. Recurring Themes and Tone

• Humor and Banter:

  • Extended personal asides, football commentary (03:36–08:26), jokes about “big carrot,” and sarcastic remarks about anti-Mormon arguments. Notably:
    • “Big Carrot has been putting this out for years…” (03:08, Dr. Dirkmaat)
  • Running gags about co-host Dr. Leduc’s poor eyesight, massive glasses, and historical glasses enabling travel through time (01:16–08:11).

• Faith and Resilience:

  • Reiterated encouragement for members to actively engage, study, and build testimonies—even on “hard” historical topics—and not be derailed by sensationalist, antagonistic arguments found online.
  • Quote:
    “Go to the best sources and read and think and pray about it. Now, that doesn’t mean you’re going to get an answer immediately, but very often when people are struggling... they haven’t gone to the best sources at all. But they have spent all kinds of time wallowing in the mire of antagonistic unacademic sources designed to destroy faith...” (28:40–30:07, Dr. Dirkmaat)

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• Leduc on “Putting Things on a Shelf” (25:23–26:44):
  “My thing is that I think you should gain a testimony of the thing. That’s what I think you should do. I think polygamy is hard... and I think we should seek to gain testimonies of these things…”
• Dirkmaat’s Rebuke of Critics’ Civil War “Inevitability” (43:19–43:33):
  “You’ll notice that they won’t create a very long list of those people or any list at all. They’ll just say something like, everyone knew there was going to be a war, but then provide no evidence.”
• Dirkmaat, on New Testament parallels (45:48–47:05):
  “What’s more likely? That Jesus’s followers after the fact said, ‘Oh, by the way, he also said the temple was going to be destroyed,’... Or that Jesus predicted perfectly, exactly the destruction of the temple?”
• Dirkmaat on Anti-Mormon Online Encounters: (68:21–69:46)
  “...this person was arguing... a Christian saying Joseph’s a false prophet... they point to this. ‘But that revelation wasn’t put into their Doctrine and Covenants until 1877 or 1876. So that just shows that it was made up after the fact.’... We have literally dozens of manuscript copies... throughout the 1830s and 1840s. And I said that to this person who responded, ‘Well, how do I know that those weren’t forged later?’... Their response after I sent that to them... they said, ‘Well, it doesn’t really matter because anyone still could have said it.’”

Important Timestamps

• Listener mailbag begins: 09:21
• Discussion of “the shelf” metaphor: 24:57–30:07
• Context, misunderstandings, and defense of Civil War prophecy: 37:09–69:09
• Charleston newspaper/expectations pre-war: 50:49–51:50
• Missouri newspaper post-secession: 59:55–61:09
• Direct confrontation of anti-Mormon arguments: 68:21–69:46
• Promise to address Orson Hyde’s letter in next episode: 71:10

Conclusion

This episode is a rich, discursive primer on the Civil War prophecy in Doctrine & Covenants 87, showing why it was, in its time and context, an extraordinary and specific prediction, unsupported by contemporary expectations. The hosts challenge listeners to be more rigorous and faith-filled in pursuing church history, to rely on credible sources, and to beware the pitfalls of modern projection and confirmation bias. Listeners are left on a cliffhanger for the next episode, where Orson Hyde’s 1862 commentary and its possible foreshadowing of the World Wars will be examined in full detail.