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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.
- [00:29]
B
Foreign Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I am joined by my erstwhile friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [00:46]
C
Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. It's a real pleasure to be with you today as we do part two of what I can only assume will be a six part series on Orson Hyde's letter to the Missouri Republican.
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B
Boy, you're selling that the same way I sold the Provost Central steak minutes from 1856.
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C
It is actually funny the places that you find some of the really, the best content. It is actually really interesting and funny.
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B
I mean, you're saying that.
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C
No, it's true. I mean, whether it's the Provost Central 1856 state conference minutes or the Missouri Republican and 1862, wherever you go, these.
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B
Are just amazing sources. It's just, they're, they're, they're just amazing.
- [01:30]
C
Well, they are actually gems. You actually, it's funny because people, people ask questions all the time like, how did we not know this before?
- [01:38]
B
And it's like, well, because we had to read it.
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C
Yeah. We had to go and search and find it.
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B
And that happens all the time. I mean, I, Even with my current assignment working on Joseph Smith's legal papers, it, There is a tendency, there's a temptation to kind of mail it in because lots of really, really smart people have already spent a lot of time on it.
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C
Right. Like, if Richard Bushman hasn't found it.
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B
Already, what's the point? Who am I?
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C
Exactly.
- [02:08]
B
Yeah. You know, with his, you know, his 50, why not us? You know, that kind of stuff. He can slay us. Richard Bushman's layman. Yeah, he can command 50. He could command significantly more than that. But I'm not. But there's always, you know, you go into looking at a case or a document and you rely on what other people have done. But you also, you have to kind of like within reason, pursue every end. Like, okay, there are these people involved in this. What do I know about this person? Oh, man. Frankly, we don't know anything about them. How can I find out more about that person? And that's where you spend time searching, looking at archives Seeing if you can find things, seeing if there's anything related to it. I mean, you know, reading the Kirtland Township record, which someone is want to do, you know, this is like the. The town's record of their elections and stuff like that. That's where you learn that Dr. Philastus Hurlbut, who is obviously just a hated Mormon before his apostasy because he's a Mormon. Right. And everyone. And Kirtland hates the Mormons. After he's convicted of threatening to wound, beat or kill Joseph Smith to wash himself and wash his hands in the blood of Joseph Smith, suddenly out of nowhere, is elected to a town office almost immediately after that. So, I mean, you could either say it's a lot different than politics today, or you could say it sounds a lot like politics today. Yeah, but. Yeah, so he's. He actually rides, you know, it's. It's a. It's a badge of honor. So those are the kinds of things you find when you. You dig a little deeper. But let's. Should probably talk about. Yeah. Christie's Corner.
- [04:12]
C
Oh, yes. I was going to jump into Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown. So last week we. We did miss Christie's Corner.
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B
Yes. That was mainly my fault.
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C
Well, we ran long, but there really. Look, we just. It's on a fifth Sunday. The Sunday school teacher in gospel doctrine is going to have to go through three weeks of content.
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B
Yeah.
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C
So we released so much stuff really re. Released seven hours of Christie's Corner the previous two weeks. If you can't raise your hand and make one comment, remember you don't want.
- [04:44]
B
It bad enough, start talking without your being called on. We want you to. In fact, when everyone else sits down in the room, just stay standing up. And the teacher will say, oh, Brother Johnson.
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C
Well, in this case, Sister Hoskins. That's my sister.
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B
Yeah. Sister Hoskins, is there something right. Actually, I want to talk about Dr. Goodman, session 92. And just. You just go with it.
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C
Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. I want to go Belle and the Dragon.
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B
Yeah, just go right off DNC 91.
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C
Oh, that's 91. Yes. We didn't actually do anything for 92. We did 91 and 93, but nothing. 93.
- [05:20]
B
That's how confident our Christie's Corner users are that they are now commenting on revelations neither they have read nor we have talked about.
- [05:32]
C
All right, let's. Let's start with the intro.
- [05:36]
B
When you want to look smart in Sunday school, if you want your friends to think you're Cool. When you want to seem wise and not a fool, It's Christie's Corner. So doctrine of session 101 surrounds the. The horrors of the Saints being violently driven out of Zion. Now, it's hard to put into. It's hard to put into terms in a way that we could understand how big a deal this is because that the Saints are being driven from their homes. That's, you know, and birds go tweet, essentially, right? Because, I mean, they're always being driven from their homes. It seems the Colesville Saints are like, oh, no, really, you lost your home and everything multiple times. But the great difference is that this is not a bunch of converts living in a place temporarily. This is where the great city of Zion was to be built. And so Doctrine and Covenant Section 101 comes as the revelation from God helping Latter Day Saints understand how this great catastrophe could have happened. Now, if you put yourself in Joseph Smith's shoes, all of these people are there, many of them his friends, because he, as a prophet, received a revelation telling them to move there. And so Joseph is going to write a letter a few days before he receives Doctrine and Covenants Section 101. He writes a letter Dec. 10 to the church in Missouri who are dealing with having been thrown out of what was supposed to be where they built the City of God. And again, it's hard to stress how important that doctrine is to them. To you. You're not thinking a whole lot about building the City of Zion, except you will be the next time we cover DNC 29, you're like, is Jesus coming yet? But for them, it is the driving, motivating force of membership. There's a reason why Kirtland is. Is only a temporary place, because the anticipation is that everyone will move to Zion and this city will be built and there will be no rich and no poor. And it will usher in the second coming of the Lord. And Joseph wants to get an answer. And much like all of us, Joseph doesn't get all of the answers that he wants. Now, that I want you to take away from this, because many of us will be in times in our life where we want an answer from God and the answer we get is just be still and know that I am God. And Joseph Smith has this same experience surrounding the expulsion of Zion. He wrote to them, I cannot learn from any communication by the Spirit to me that Zion has forfeited her claim to a celestial crown notwithstanding the Lord has caused her to be thus afflicted. I had always expected that Zion would suffer sore affliction from what we could learn from the commandments which have been given. So we knew that it would be difficult. But I don't think anyone thought they'd be driven out of it. But I would remind you of a certain cause in one which says, after much tribulation cometh the blessing. He's quoting Doctrine and Covenants. What is today Doctrine and Covenants, Section 58. There I know that Zion, in the own due time of the Lord will be redeemed. But how many will be the days of her purification, tribulation and affliction the Lord has kept hid from my eyes? And when I inquire concerning this subject, the voice of the Lord is, be still and know that I am God. All those who suffer for my name shall reign with me. And he that layeth down his life for my sake shall find it again. So you can see Joseph is begging God to know, when will Zion be redeemed? And for whatever reason, even though Joseph is the prophet of the restoration, receiving revelation after revelation, translating the Book of Mormon, receiving the Book of Moses, God doesn't give Joseph an answer to his question. As Joseph goes on, he says, these things are kept back. They are not plainly shown to me. He doesn't have an answer. And you can tell that he feels great sorrow for the saints that are suffering there. When we learn of your sufferings, it awakens every sympathy in our hearts and we cannot refrain from tears. But then he also shares this little tidbit. He says, therefore, God hath dealt mercifully with us, brethren. Let us be thankful that it is as well with us as it is and that we are yet alive and that peradventure God hath laid up in store some great good for us in this generation and grant that we may glorify his name. I feel thankful that no more have denied the faith. And I pray God, in the name of Jesus, that you may all be kept in the faith until the end. Let your sufferings be what they may. So this you know. It's a very personal and poignant letter that Joseph writes, and you do see the limitations of his office as a prophet of God. Joseph is the receptacle whereby God will reveal his will to the church in the last days. It doesn't mean that God always reveals it. Even when Joseph asks, even when it's something of great import. God's response was, be still and know I'm God. And if you go to the actual revelation, if you go to Doctrine and Covenants, Section 101. One of the things that the Lord tells the saints is that they have to be tried the same way Abraham was. All of us will have to at some point, some point, make and maybe multiple times make that critical decision. Have I really consecrated everything the Lord asks? Or am I like the rich young ruler saying, what more do I need to do? And then when I hear that, it's everything, do I go away sorrowful, for I have great possessions? The saints, following the winter of 1833 and 1834, will spend weeks and then months and then years and then decades wondering, when can we go back to build the city of Zion? So that's something. Hurry and hop up. The second you get into Sunday school, Sister Hoskins just in fact walk in and start talking over the person who's handing out the canning assignment. That's that you have. You have to talk over them. They've got the little clipboard. You just start talking.
- [13:38]
C
That's before the cannery assignment, before the mill assignment goes out. Yeah, well, so now jumping into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag.
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B
Garrett.
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C
This first email comes from Lacey.
- [13:53]
B
Okay.
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C
King James. The subject is King James version equals the Trinity. Hello, Dirk Moss and Dr. Leduc. I've been listening to the Standard of Truth podcast for just over a month now. I was introduced by my 18 year old, then home MTC attending son who is now at the Mexico MTC heading to Argentina next week. This. He's. He's about to come home from his mission now, probably by the time that we're reading this.
- [14:22]
B
How long ago was this email?
- [14:23]
C
It was the middle of August, so he's, he's, he's likely in Argentina.
- [14:27]
B
Son's coming home in a month.
- [14:29]
C
No, no, I'm kidding. I'm saying how delayed we are on eating, reading emails.
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B
Okay, I just thought you were just taking a shot if he likes this podcast. No, no, no, no, no.
- [14:39]
C
I'm sure, I'm sure that Lacy's husband. Husband. Husband and son.
- [14:45]
B
I feel like at this point she doesn't want us to read her email. I wouldn't. You've attacked her. You've attacked her son.
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C
Somehow her husband's catching strays, everyone. So no, he should be. So the email was received on August 13, so he should be well entrenched in Argentina by this time.
- [15:02]
B
He's saying every J incorrectly.
- [15:05]
C
Ja. He's Asia ing his way through. My son's thinking and researching is very thin in line with how Dr. Dirkmot proves truth through historical events. He has also had moments of his own. Dandometer registering on the Richter scale when proving his point. Anyway, needless to say, I am now fully invested in devouring as much content produced by the podcast as possible. So if she's been listening for a month, she won't be hearing this until he comes back.
- [15:36]
B
Yeah, we may need to send her a note and say, hey Lacy, we responded.
- [15:42]
C
We mocked your husband. For some reason, not only does the podcast remind me of my son since we listened together while home in the mtc. In the home mtc, but also makes me hungry for increasing my knowledge of historical facts and the way other people see the Church of Jesus Christ. I am one that doesn't understand the belief in a Trinity, but believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are separate beings. She's in rare company with just the.
- [16:14]
B
Just the Latter day Satan and to.
- [16:16]
C
Some degree are Jehovah Witness brothers and sisters. Sort of.
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B
Yeah.
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C
Because Jehovah and Jesus are different people. Yes, Jehovah is God and yes we're.
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B
Like becomes very difficult.
- [16:27]
C
We're like, well, sort of in an effort to understand how someone could read the King James Version of the Bible and still believe that they are one being, not even diving into the Book of Mormon doctrine, Covenants, Joseph Smith History, Pearl of Great Price, but referencing Matthew 3, 6, 7 and Matthew 17:1, 8, where it is obvious to me anyway that Jesus and God the Father are separate. How do those that believe in the Trinity explain those verses assuming they study the King James Version of the Bible? Me knowing full well that not every student of the Bible studies that particular version? Bonus question. What other religions study the King James Version of the Bible? Or is it only members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints? And bonus question number two, if they do study the King James Version, do they believe in the Trinity? Which religious which religions study the King James Version as members of the Church of Christ? We believe that as members of Church of Jesus Christ, but believe in the Trinity. All of them. By the way, I can go ahead and answer that one.
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B
That one doesn't Richard's answering the questions for me.
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C
That's right. Thanks for your time in answering questions, but I could probably get answers from a high but ask you instead, knowing that the answers you give will not only produce clarity but also an answer the the questions that I didn't know I wanted asked.
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B
That's for certain. You're going to get a question answered that you didn't want answered because that's it's what we do here. So in answer to the larger Question. It is considered a, it's considered an article of faith, let's put it that way. It's considered an article of orthodoxy for Christians to believe that the Trinity, that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are one in substance, but three personages in the Godhead, the Trinity. It's an article of Christian faith. And it has been, you know, ever since the middle of the three hundreds, essentially. I mean, the Nicene Council didn't actually settle it because the very next emperor went the other direction with it. But eventually it settles it. And so what that means is you're talking about something, a perception of how God is. And, you know, the Trinity is very difficult to explain. You know, a very common way of doing it is by making a triangle. And at the top you put God the Father, and at the, you know, the Father. And then at the bottom left you put the, the Holy Spirit. In the bottom right you put Jesus. And then in between those points, you draw arrows that say, you know, going to the center of the triangle, you draw arrows going to the center of the triangle that say is, is God. So in the middle is God. Right. So the Father is God, the Holy Spirit is God, the, the Son is God. But then you draw other arrows on the outside of the triangle between the Father and the Son, saying the Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father. But those same points also have arrows going to the middle that says the Holy Spirit is God, so God, the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. So if we were doing simple math, we would say, well, if A equals B and B equals C, then A must equal C. That's the highest level of math.
- [20:28]
C
I, I think I'll link, put a link in the description to kind of the image that you're describing. Because, because it's as complex and difficult to understand as the Trinity is. The, this image so does not help even worse. Well, no, you're in an impossible spot. The image also does not make sense.
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B
I mean, it's also hard to argue. Like, here, let me help you understand something that I don't believe in and.
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C
Also that no one actually understands and that they claim that not understanding is.
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B
The main part, that it's the mystery. Of course you can't understand the nature of God. So the response for people whenever you question the Trinity and you say, well, that doesn't make sense, or I don't understand the response is always some version of God's ways are not your ways. Of course you can't fully comprehend God. Now that does kind of fly in the face a little bit of, you know, and this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou sent. I mean, kind of seems like you do need to understand their nature. And what's interesting too is that the, the Trinity orthodoxy question. And so when you say what other religions. Look, any professing Christian religion that does not accept the Trinity is considered to a certain degree, one way or the other heretical. And for most Christians, they will use the term as cult. So Jehovah's Witnesses and Latter Day Saints are lumped into that same place as well. As, you know, today Unitarians are more Unitarian Universalists. And that church doesn't really hold the same kind of doctrines that it used to. But the Unitarian Church, it's the reason why it was called Unitarian, used to be the argument that they were not three separate beings, but one. Right. So there are Christian believers in Christ who don't accept the, the Trinity explanation of the Godhead, but they are very much in the minority. And all other Christians in that majority would perceive someone who doesn't accept it as being a heretic to one degree or another.
- [22:46]
C
I found a good image on a Pentecostal website.
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B
I think people are going to love it. That'll be very helpful. So when you say, well, how do they interpret these verses like Matthew 3, 16 and 17, I mean, that's. It's a great question. Matthew 3, 16, 17, is Jesus being baptized? Right. Jesus comes straight way out of the water. And lo, the heavens were open and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon him. And lo, a voice from heaven saying, this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Well, that kind of causes some problems, right, because Jesus is God, but also the voice is saying, this is my beloved Son. But if Jesus is God, then why is Jesus throwing His voice? Essentially so that it seems like he's separate from the Father. Now, there's been all kinds of explanations on this, but I'll tell you one of the more recent ones that I've seen from a, a Christian, a Christian website is trying to reconcile this because antagonists have said things like in the Gospel of John, it says Jesus says to them, you have never heard his voice nor seen his form when he's talking about the Father. Okay, well, if you've never heard his voice, then how in the world can the people that are there recording Jesus baptism hear his voice? Right? So this causes a problem so there have been some Christians who've argued, well, only Jesus heard the voice. It wasn't a voice that other people could hear. And so, you know, like Paul on the road to Damascus, you know, some saw a light but heard no man. You know? Right. They saw the light but heard no man. That they're trying to find a way around it. I. I was on a. A Christian website the other day, and the author of this is a. You know, they have a PhD. They're. They're well educated, and they actually make this argument. Well, there is a voice that says, this is my son. So it was a message from God. But God has used many messengers to deliver his words. Since Christ is the primary spokesperson for God, who is now in a human form, the voice that was heard at his baptism from heaven must clearly have been that of an angelic messenger relaying this message on the behalf of God. And that's how those two verses are no longer contradictory.
- [25:44]
C
I gotta tell you, though, in fairness to this person, what are they supposed to do?
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B
But. But that's exactly the point. This explanation, which in no way is supported by the text. By the way, the text in no way suggests an angel is speaking to Jesus. And one thing the New Testament is actually totally fine with is telling you when angels are speaking. It happens with Elizabeth. It happens with Mary. It happens with. With the. The women who were at the tomb. The. The New Testament is not shy to tell you angels have appeared and angels are speaking. And Luke, you know, even in the Garden of Gethsemane has an angel appearing to the Lord. So it's one of those things where, yeah, I understand why he's making the argument, because there appears to be a contradiction. Well, it's not a contradiction if it's really just a message about Jesus. That's, of course, coming from the Father, but it isn't actually the Father's voice. It's an angel that's saying it. So if you go back and you read those verses and you read those verses in light of it's actually an angel that's saying it and not God, well, now you have no contradiction at all. Now it's just simply an angel declaring Jesus's divine sonship, not God, you know, not Jesus throwing his voice to the question about. I love the fact, Lacy, that when you read the New Testament, the words on the page seem to so clearly demonstrate a difference between Jesus and God the Father, that the natural way to read it is they're two separate beings. And to the point where you actually have Thought of your own solution. Maybe they're just not reading the King James Bible.
- [27:56]
C
So I was. When we were at the Helsinki temple, I became friends with one of the Lithuanian saints who was in Lithuania via India.
- [28:05]
B
Oh, okay.
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C
And he was from a more kind of a southern part of India and grew up Catholic. And I asked him, because, to be honest, a Catholic Indian becoming Latter Day Saint in Lithuania, few people have made that.
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B
He's made a lot of changes.
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C
Few people have gone that route. And I asked him, I said, that's fascinating to me. How did you even come to even start thinking about it in this way? And he said, honestly, for me, I never believed it never made sense to me. And I said, well, how is that the case? He's like, have you read the Bible? That was his. That was his question to me, which is a fair question.
- [28:47]
B
Yeah, well, he saw, he wasn't even asking, have you read it? He saw that you couldn't read anything with your glasses, and he was physically asking you, is it possible the ability to read the Bible, you know, with the neutron star glasses that you're now wearing.
- [29:03]
C
But he was like, but if you kind of Delay's point. But I read it and when I read it, it didn't make any sense. And so when the missionaries started talking about Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ as separate, he's like, well, this must be it.
- [29:19]
B
Yeah, well. And so I think that most people naturally reading it would come to that conclusion. But to your point of what else is he going to do, this guy trying to find this separate explanation, the decision on the Trinity made at the Council of Nicaea and then eventually becomes the law of Christianity over the course of the next several hundred years after that is from 325. I mean, what Latter Day Saints are dealing with when they talk to Christians who are adamant about the triune God, is they're dealing with almost 2,000 years of Christian tradition. So how do they read those verses? Well, they know that the Trinity is more accurate than anything else. And so they do exactly what this theologian did. I know the Trinity is the Trinity. I know that before I know anything else. So anything that I read that appears to say that it's not, I must be understanding it wrong. Because my starting point is the Trinity. And part of the reason why that originated is in the ancient world. It was the exact opposite of today. Well, maybe not for your friend from India, but it's the exact opposite for the Western hemisphere today, where in the Western hemisphere and in Europe and in Africa, for the most part, Almost everyone. Obviously there's thousands of tribal religions in parts of Africa, but in much of Africa, almost all of Europe and the Middle east and all of north and South America, monotheism is the standard. It's the rule. And it's what. It's what made Jews totally different than their Roman and Greek and Egyptian and Babylonian counterparts around them. They believed that there was only one God, not that they only worshiped one God, there only was one. Monotheism was the most defining characteristic of Judaism and at the time of Jesus, I mean, heavens. The reasons why there's an uproar for the Jews at the time that Jesus is living is because the Romans have on multiple occasions defiled the temple by placing standards of Jupiter in it, by, by claiming that you could have other kinds of worship. Because for, for Jews, it's not just that their God is bigger and better than your God, which is how the Romans dealt with it. Clearly the Roman gods are more powerful than Egyptian gods. Look, the Egyptian gods, they were powerful. They had an empire once, but Rome owns Egypt now. So I guess they aren't as powerful as the Roman gods. It's very simple. Whoever was winning clearly has the most powerful gods. But Jews instead responded that there actually were no other gods. And that became the most essential aspect of Judaism and that there's only one God and you only worship one God. And so when Jesus, when the Gospels declare that in the beginning was the Word a reference to Jesus, the Logos, the Word, in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God, you already have a problem because Christians don't want to say that Jesus is just a super great teacher. He's just really awesome at parables. Christians say that Jesus is God, and if Jesus is God, then how can God be God and Jesus be God and there not be two gods? And for Christians, they eventually come to the Trinity as the explanation of how that's the case that in some great mystery that you can't comprehend, Jesus is God, the Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. But you can't confuse them. You can't say that, well, if the Holy Spirit's God, then the Holy Spirit's the same as the Father. You can't do that. That's confusing the persons. But at the same time that they aren't three separate entities, they're just one God. And when you say, well, that doesn't make sense, the response would be, you can't understand God. God's beyond your ability to understand. So that the king James Bible itself, to your other question, it was very standard. It looked. It was the Bible of the Anglican Church. And nearly every breakaway Protestant group in America traces some aspect of its element back to the, the, the Church of England. You know, some may not be very proud of it. Like, the Baptists will be like, no, it wasn't really. But there's some aspect of it that comes from that. And so the King James Bible was fairly standard among all American Protestant religions. You know, in Joseph Smith's time, there were some sects that used the Geneva Bible, which was John Calvin's translation of the Bible. So especially like Congregationalists and Presbyterian sects might use that today. Look, people don't look at the King James Bible as being different than like the new Revised Standard Version or, you know, the new International version, the NIV Bible. They just see it as being less clear. Right. So because its phraseology is early, you know, it's this English, you know, Shakespearean language basically that you, it's easier for you to understand if you read a new translation, a later translation. The churches that there are churches that say, no, the only version of the Bible you can use is the King James Version. And they're primarily very conservative. Presbyterian, some Pentecostal churches, there are some Baptist sects that only use the King James Version. But by and large, part of the reason sometimes people like, well, why do we use it? Part of the reason why is while there's a lot of Christians that will say, oh, really, why are you still using the old King James Version? People don't see it as wrong. Right. So you're not offending someone who uses the new International version. You're not offending them by using the King James Version. They just think you should be using an easier to read version. Right. So it's kind of like, I mean, this is maybe a bad example because it kind of does offend me when someone, like, only has a flip phone. Right. And that offends you? No, it kind of does. Well, actually, yeah.
- [36:56]
C
Yeah.
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B
Because if I'm like, trying to send you an email from work, like, hey, here it is, I can't. I can't get that on my phone. Okay, well, you need to get it so that we can actually be a productive team. You would look at people who use these more modern translations. They look at people using the King James Version not as being wrong, but as not getting as much out of their scripture study as they could because there's so many phrases and words in there that they don't understand because it's written in a way that. That's not modern English. So in that sense, it's very. Among Protestant sections. Sex. It's very safe to use the King James Version because rarely are you going to have someone say, I can't believe you're using the King James Version. Heresy. Almost never. Certainly not on a. On a sect wide level. But you actually will have that going the other way. If you adopt the NIV Version, you will lose some denominations who believe that the King James Version is the only version that should be used. So you can kind of see the reason why, not only for tradition's sake, in the sense that this is the Bible that Joseph was using and it's the Bible we've always used, but also as a missionary tool. Sure. You might find someone who's annoyed that you're reading the King James Version, like, oh, really, you guys are reading King James? Why don't you read this? It's like way more clear. But they won't think you're a heretic because you're using it. Unless, of course, they're Catholic. Then they might think, well, you should be using this Protestant Bible anyway. You should be using, you know, the Vulgate, the Douay Rheims Bible. But at any rate, so lots of churches use the King James Version. It's just that when they read those verses, they are already predisposed to interpret them in a different way because their starting point is the only way to understand God is the Trinity, not actually what the words on the text. The words of the text say, what the words on the page say. So good question.
- [39:15]
C
So let me give you an example. This is where the niv, the New International Version, they do some additional interpretation of certain scriptures. So let me give you the King James version of John 1:18. No man has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
- [39:37]
B
Okay, so there. No one has seen God anytime, but the Son has declared him.
- [39:42]
C
King James Version. Here's the NIV Version. No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in the closest relationship with the Father, has made him.
- [39:55]
B
Known, boy, that who is himself God does not seem to be part of what the.
- [40:02]
C
But it goes to your point. If the base level is the Trinity, well then you're not adding anything to this.
- [40:09]
B
You're trying to help people understand. Yeah. So that. That's one of the aspects of it that makes it a little difficult.
- [40:15]
C
Well, so Garrett, we We've. That was a great question that allowed tremendous elaboration and I felt like everyone was edified. But we must now jump straight from emails to Orson Hyde and the Missouri Republican.
- [40:32]
B
There's no possible way we're going to cover it all. That's the problem.
- [40:36]
C
Well, this is going to be fun. Let's see what we do.
- [40:38]
B
Well, so the Civil War. How do I start? Just so everyone knows there was a war. So we spent time last time talking about some of the arguments against DC87 being as prophetic as it is. And this letter that he was referencing is published in the Missouri Republican and it's actually part of this entire packet from Utah. So they're giving correspondence, they're giving information from their correspondent in Utah who is clearly not pro Latter Day Saint. I know it's going to be surprising that the news media of the 19th century Missouri not super pro Saturday saint. It's interesting that that could possibly be the case. But, you know, I don't know if I could put any year in there and it would be the same thing. This person is talking about how, you know, the Latter Day Saints are very hard to deal with. But then he tells this. There was a mass meeting on Monday and it was spirited and enthusiastic. The report from the News, which is the Deseret News, is reliable but not full and not set off with the full reporterial pen for effect as it would have been elsewhere. It lacks the important prayer and the speech of Brigham which were the telling points of the occasion. They are probably reserved for the next issue of the news. The Chief of the Apostles, Orson Hyde, read the accompanying letter addressed to the Republican, to the Missouri Republican as his contribution to that political assemblage. Okay, so there, there, there's obviously a meeting that's going on here and it's. And from the, this person, they're saying that there was a delegation that met together for the purpose of trying to create a statehood convention. The Latter Day Saints, because they're a territory, Utah's a territory, have been experiencing terrible difficulties politically. Almost no one who lives in Utah territory is not either a Latter Day Saint or an excommunicated Latter Day Saint. Now, look, are there people. Yes, There are minors living in Nevada that, you know, in what is today Nevada that aren't Latter Day Saints. Yes. There's miners living in the mountains of what is today Colorado because that was all part of Utah Territory back then. That, that are not Latter Day Saints. Yes. There's, you know, businessmen and, and, and, you know, pony express riders. And the army. And there are people in Utah Territory who aren't Latter Day Saints. It's just comparatively, there's almost none of them. The population, the Latter Day Saint population of Utah Territory is probably north of 85 to 90%. So almost everyone is a Latter Day Saint. The problem is Latter Day Saints are hated by everyone. And the federal because they're a territory, the federal officials. So the, the Supreme Court justices of the, of the the territory, the Secretary of the Territory, the Governor of the Territory, the Indian Agent of the territory, which is a very big position in the 1860s because there is a lot of dealings with the Native Americans. And you might imagine an Indian agent that gets crosswise with the Native Americans. Well, guess who suffers because of that. It's not the Indian agent himself. It's the people's interaction with the Native Americans. Obviously the Native Americans are all also suffering if you have a bad Indian agent. So the only elected positions in the territory for governance are the territorial legislature itself. But the governor has veto power over any law. So the Latter Day Saints would pass a law and the governor appointed by the president determined to reign, those Mormons in would just veto every law on the off chance that some law does become law that the federal government isn't happy about. Well then all the appointed justices of the court just simply overturn it as not being constitutional. So the Saints wanted to have their own state government so they could elect their own governors, so they could appoint their own judges, so they could actually have self rule. It's very funny. Even historians writing about this time period, they act like the Mormons are crazy for wanting to have a Mormon governor and Mormon court justices. Really, when almost everyone living there is a Mormon. That's not weird to think that someone who represents my group would also be representing my group.
- [46:08]
C
But even if that wasn't just from history, from recent history for them, why wouldn't they want? Especially given all the issues that came from political.
- [46:20]
B
Surprisingly, when many historians cover this era, they don't spend a ton of time on just how corrupt governors refused to honor the rights of Latter Day Saints and got Joseph Smith murdered. They don't. It's, it's funny. They don't. They'll say in their books, they'll say things like, you know, the Saints were wary of government after the murder of. Wary of government. The Saints have been murdered and killed and mobbed without any consequences out of the states of the United States. And so yeah, they, yeah, forgive me if I don't take your word for it, that you're one of the good gentiles because we've got a pretty long track record that you're not. I, I, I've never met you, but yes, you know, I, I don't know, but I know that everyone talks about how much they hate Mormons, so, so they want to get a statehood convention up. Now. Notice this. This is 1862. We're already a year into the American Civil War. One of the arguments that frustrated the Latter Day Saints so much during the American Civil War is they were trying to become a state. Okay? You have all of these Southern states that have literally left the Union who have demonstrated their disloyalty by in fact seceding from, from the Union and declaring war on the Union. There are already thousands of Union soldiers who are dead because these Confederate states were in fact traitors to the Union. But Latter Day Saints are told that they can't join the Union because they aren't properly loyal. And by that they meant Christian and not Mormons. And so it's an on, you know, Latter Day Saints feel very bitter about this. I mean, we're trying to get in and you won't let us in. And you say you won't let us in because we're not loyal. And we're literally trying to get in. Everyone else is leaving. Everyone else is trying to get in. We're desperately trying to get in. You're like, nope, nope, you're not loyal Americans. So we won't. And frankly, that's exactly what the federal government thought. The federal government thought, yeah, but if we let Utah become a state, how will we ever control Mormonism? Well, maybe instead of thinking how you're going to control a minority group, you just grant people their God given rights. Maybe you could do that or just continue to exercise unrighteous dominion. Oh, dander meter, let's move on. In Wilford Woodruff's journal, he describes this meeting. He says, this is one of the most important days in the last dispensation. The inhabitants of this city, Salt Lake, is where he's at. Met in a mass meeting for the purpose of appointing nine men to meet in convention with others from this territory to frame a constitution and to organize a state government and elect our own governor and our own judges and peace officers and to ask Congress to be admitted into the Union. Now Wilford Woodruff writes in his journal, if they will not admit us, we will go on independent of them, as our fathers did in the beginning, and God will sustain us in it. So Wilford's like, you Know what? Then we'll just become our own nation. He's probably talking a little, a little bit much there. In fact, Brigham Young will say that he does not want Utah mess involved in the secession movement at all. People ask, will Utah secede? Brigham Young says no, over and over again when he's asked. The tabernacle was filled with men, the bone and sinew of these mountains. It was the highest tribunal of men on earth. It was not only assembly of the people from whom emanates all power, law, authority and government among freemen, but it was an assembly of prophets, apostles, priests, and saints of the most high God, who were inspired and appointed to build up the kingdom of God on earth. So you see how Wilford's saying things. This collection of men trying to create Utah statehood, they are not only the best of people, they're actually prophets, apostles, and people holding God's keys on earth, you know, so this is the greatest assemblage of men that there could be. They, he goes on to say, Brigham Young spoke at it, and he was filled with the spirit and power of God. And he said the time had come to be organized into a state government, appoint our own officers, and take care of ourselves. At the close of the speech, the committee arrived and presented their resolutions before the assembly, which was read by the secretary and all received as one universal acclamation. There was not a dissenting vote in the meeting. There was then nine men appointed to meet in convention on the 20th day of 1862. And then he gave gives the names after these were appointed. So after they've had their meeting, after Brigham Young has spoke, after they've shouted their acclamations, Orson Hyde read before the meeting a communication to the St. Louis Republican showing them how they are receiving their reward for their persecution of the saints. All the people were ripe for the organization of a state government. The heavens, the earth, the Holy Spirit and the people were all ready for this work. Our fathers made a declaration of independence and formed the American Constitution. It was inspired to lay the foundation of a free and independent government, and the Lord protected them in it. But they did not know that they were inspired to do it. There was a veil over them that they did not know what the purposes of the Lord were or that he was protecting them. It is not so with us. We know that God is leading us and inspiring his people to establish his kingdom and government upon earth, and we know it. So you get a little bit of how Wilford Woodruff took the letter that Orson Hyde wrote, that it was to Tell Missouri that what happened. And so this letter published in the Missouri Republican. It's published immediately after this negative report from this correspondent of the Missouri Republican. He's publishing this letter as a further demonstration of how terrible Mormons are, not because. Oh, yes, we thought we'd give Orson Hyde a fair hearing. Yes. But he thinks this letter will further cause people to hate Mormons. So let's read. You know what? Let's read the letter.
- [53:19]
C
Sounds great.
- [53:20]
B
Yeah. It seems like it's taken us a while.
- [53:22]
C
No, but this is good. The context of this is, I think, very important and understanding.
- [53:27]
B
I think everyone stopped listening seven or eight hours ago. Oh, season one, they stopped listening? Yeah, they stopped when we dropped the podcast.
- [53:36]
C
Lacey's never getting to that. I had to email her to tell her, hey, you should listen to this. We just answered your question.
- [53:40]
B
So then she'll listen to this one and hate it so much she'll stop listening.
- [53:44]
C
Yeah, it's possible.
- [53:44]
B
This is a bad plan for us.
- [53:46]
C
Well, but her. Her son in Argentina will listen. Cuz. What else?
- [53:49]
B
Have anything else? Exact. So he'll still listen because he's forced.
- [53:53]
C
That's. That's our. That's our marketing strategy.
- [53:55]
B
Our main. You know, if you can't produce a product that anyone wants, produce one that people don't have anything better to do, and then they'll use it. Yeah, I feel like that's. It's summer league football is. It's like arena football.
- [54:10]
C
It's. It's arena football. It's Yugoslavia's car manufacturing. It's all the same.
- [54:15]
B
Yeah. Yeah. As long as no one has any other options, it's fine. Okay, so here's the letter. It's quite lengthy. I, I, and I will probably make commentary as we go. And when I say probably, I mean I definitely. So I apologize for that. By the way. This is from the actual Missouri Republican. It's not from. So this letter is later published in the. The Latter Day Saint Messenger. Millennial Star. Sorry, I almost said messenger. Navigate. It's published in the Millennial Star. And so that's usually the version, if you've ever heard of it, that people are using, because that's what's easy to get. Because it's easy to get, the Millennial Star. But this is the. The. That's how we're getting. The context is by going to the original source here, editor of the Missouri Republicans. Sir, having once been a citizen of your region of the country and looking with anxious eye upon the scenes which are being enacted there, and look Again, look, I only got this far before I get that.
- [55:13]
C
That's great.
- [55:13]
B
Missouri is incredibly volatile in the Civil War, and like I said, there was a very strong pro Union sentiment. I mean, look at Missouri as a border state. It's the furthest northern state. Most of its border is with Illinois, for crying out loud. Like Lincoln's home state, St. Louis, because it is a center of commerce. It is much more pro Union as a, As a. As a location. And that's one of the major population centers. Right. But the western portion of Missouri, the portion not on the border with Missouri, is heavily secessionist. And so you actually have a divided. You have a divided state. Early on in March of 1861. So this is right before the firing on Fort Sumter, there was a statehood convention that voted against secession pretty soundly, by the way. I mean, it was almost unanimous against joining the secession. The problem is that after that, the. The war begins in earnest. And if you're Abraham Lincoln, you've got a problem. You've got these border states like Kentucky and Missouri who are passing resolutions, saying things like, we're not on either side. We're not on the Confederate side. We're not on the Union side. We're just here. You can buy stuff from us. We're like Switzerland, only without, you know, Ricola. I mean, we are. We. They want to remain neutral. The problem for the Union is, well, what do we do? Because there's a huge pro Confederate sentiment in Missouri and they are advocating joining the South. Well, what happens if the Missouri Guard is mobilized to go take some federal arsenals over in St. Louis? What if the union loses St. Louis as a city because of the Missouri troops? And so in many ways, the Union is kind of forced to preemptively occupy St. Louis and then eventually they'll occupied Jefferson City as well. Well, this. This causes the many state leaders to say that the Union government is. Is now trampling on our rights. In fact, the Missouri is demanding that all Union troops leave, that there's no recruiting of any. Any troops in Missouri. That doesn't happen. So what happens is that there is a new. There's a new provisional government essentially established, and that government will pledge its loyalty to the Confederacy. So what you have in Missouri is almost a Civil War inside of a civil war where you have residents of the state remaining Unionist, but also residents of the state becoming secessionists. The ones who are secessionists claiming, in fact, there are some Confederate flags that have Missouri as one of the flags, one of the stars on their flag right Claiming that. That their. Their new government passed a secession ordinance, and now they're going to be a part of. Of the secession. And of course, it's not recognized by the Union, so it becomes a very violent and volatile place. Look, the Confederate Congress, as far as it's concerned, they're like, I don't care how legitimate this other government is. So In November of 1861, they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, Missouri's part of the Confederacy. They're fine with it. You know, they surprisingly not as concerned about whether or not things were voted on than. Than they might have been. So one of the things already, there's been a lot of chaos in Missouri in 1861. There's not a ton of violence. I mean, you have the battle of Bull Run, sure. But the really bloody violence is going to come with all the spring campaigns in 1862. There's been violence. There's certainly loss of life. People have realized that the war is a real deal. But Missouri is going to descend in many places into almost guerrilla warfare.
- [60:27]
C
It's weird that Missouri seemed like such a stable place.
- [60:32]
B
Yeah. Where everyone was just, like, keeping the laws and stuff. Yeah. Anyway, so as Orson I back to his letter. He says he cast an anxious eye on the scenes which are being acted there. I cannot forego the inclination and possibly the duty of penning a few lines to the people there with the hope that they may reach them through the columns of your journal. The responsibility of writing them, I assume. I am unwilling to believe that party alliances, pecuniary interests, political, religious, or personal considerations will permit you to suppress their publication. Is it forgotten that a peculiar people called the Mormons inhabited western Missouri in the forepart of the present century? Were those people compelled to fly the state before the pitiless storm of unrestrained mobocracy? Was there any eye to pity or arm to save from the president of the United States down to the constable of a precinct go we must, and go we did. But the guardian genius of the peace and prosperity of your state left when we did, and he has not since returned. Neither will he return until we do. As the steamer, however, abates not her speed immediately on stopping of the engines. So has Missouri run on in prosperity some length of time since the Mormons left it. But alas, her race is running, and the power to entail prosperity upon her sons and daughters is departed from her. Dearly did the Mormons suffer in that state, and dearly is that state now suffering the penalty of her former cruelties. Wow. Joseph Smith once said on the stand in Nauvoo that if the government of the United States did not redress the wrongs of the Mormon people inflicted upon them in the state of Missouri, the whole nation should be distracted by mobs from one end to the other, and that they should have mobs to the full and to their heart's content. I heard the foregoing statement myself as it fell from the lips of the Prophet in the presence of thousands of witnesses, some of whom now reside in the city of St. Louis after returning from Washington, to which place he had been to lay our grievances before President Martin Van Buren and to solicit redress. Joseph made the above statement, but the President's response to his appeal was worse than a blank. Add to the foregoing wrongs remaining un, unredressed, and the subsequent martyrdom of Joseph and Hyrum Smith in the state of Illinois and the expulsion of the entire Mormon population from that state by the citizens thereof, there being no effort made by any department of the government to stay the flood of violence against us, neither any to wash out the stain of innocent blood from the nation's skirts, the blood of heaven's ambassadors to the earth. What can we expect other than a righteous God, a faithful sovereign would make just as similar a requisition upon the nation as he is now making. So Warsonide is bold. I think it's fine. It's fair to say he's a bold man, but part of what he's saying, I mean, it is irrefutable. There were tens of thousands, tens of thousands of American citizens who the federal government and multiple state governments allowed to be driven out of the country completely. They allowed all their property to be stolen. They allowed people to be murdered and no one arrested. They didn't. Not a single department of government said, hey, what if we, like, didn't allow, like, American citizens to be murdered because they believe something different? What if we stop that? In fact, you have the exact opposite. So I know it sounds like he's going a little over the top, but as far as he's concerned, what did you think would happen when you trampled the rights given in the Constitution and then just thought nothing would happen from it if it were better. This is back to Orson Hyde. If it were better than a millstone be. I have to. I have to separate my righteous indignation from his. Yeah, they're molding together.
- [65:41]
C
Yeah, they're mixing together.
- [65:42]
B
Did he just say something about a Nintendo Switch, which it seems like. Orson, I wouldn't have known that if it were better than a milsom be hung about the neck of anyone that offends even one of these little ones that believe in Christ, how much sorer the punishment shall they be thought worthy of who've offended thousands by driving them from their homes, by resting them from their lands for a song, by burning their grain and hay and forcing them at the point. Point of a bayonet into a waste and howling wilderness to be devoured by savages and wild beasts after having slain their prophets and apostles, their brethren and friends, the people of the nation may answer this question. Justice, though sometimes slow in its operation, is nevertheless sure to obtain its demands. That sounds very, very similar to Martin Luther King, Jr. Right. The Ark of justice is long, but it bends inevitably. Now, as I said, it is a long letter, so you know you have to bear with me. I know Richard's already, you know, pointing at his watch. And to. To. To. To today, Garrett. But thanks be to a kind heaven, the wrath of man drove us to these sequestered veils far from the scenes of desolation and war. And. And that wrath now pray, that praises. And that wrath now praises God, and so do the saints. The remainder of wrath manifested in the advance of the army he did restrain. Know ye that the second seal is now opened and the red and bloody horses galloping forth. Peace is to be taken from the earth. See Revelation. What now are the prospects of these things coming to pass in the States and in the world? The answer is with you. When will peace be restored to our distracted country? The answer is with us. But as preliminary measures to that peace which most desire, I would say let some efficient measures be speedily adopted to bind up the wounds of the Mormon people by reinstating them in their rights and possessions and by paying them the damages which they have suffered by by reason of being dispossessed of their substance, robbed of their rights, and forced to abandon the land which they love. Unless some measures of this kind be soon adopted, the people of every town, county and state in the Union and out of the Union heretofore admitted into it will have to fly from their homes and places of business, even as they did the Mormons from Missouri and Illinois. The cop of persecution of which our enemies forced us to drink at their hands was bitter in our mouths, but it will be sweet in our belly. Orsonheid's. He's feeling a little salty, I believe is how you might describe that. Though sweet to them when they forced us to drink it, yet their bitterness cannot fail, their reward is sure. With that same measure ye mete it shall be measured unto you again. Though I make the foregoing suggestion. Do I believe, or do you believe, that it will be entertained with the least favor by those who have or did have power to carry it into effect? Our faith on this point is unquestionably the same. God will probably clear the way for our return himself by the agency of cruel and bloodthirsty men, even by such as disinherited us, and will claim the honor of reinstating us in his own way and in his own time. And with him we are content to rest our cause. Nevertheless, for your sakes I make the suggestion that I do, which is the only remedy for the troubles now existing in the states within reach of the nation. Some four years since, in a discourse delivered in the tabernacle in this city, I made the following. So sure as the storms mountains burst and hurl their fury upon us, the twin peaks of the Wasatch range. Just so sure as the storm of Jehovah's wrath about to burst upon the nation and the people of the United States. This statement found its way into several Eastern journals and drew forth some ludicrous editorials as to what the prophet Orson had said. Call me by whatever name they will, I intend to tell the truth and time that faithful revealer of all things will attest the merits or demerits of my state sayings. You have scarcely yet read the preface to your national troubles. Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom that now whirls through our land. And after many days, when the demon of war shall have exhausted his strength and madness on the American soil, in the destruction of all that can court or provoke opposition, excite cupidity, inspire revenge or feed ambition, he will remove his headquarters to the banks of the Rhine. So that's that. That reference that the original person Dawson made. Now we. Of course, then. Now we start looking in our. We look back and we say, well, ah, obviously that must mean World War I and World War II, which would make sense. Banks of the Rhine, Germany. Of course, they are much closer to the conflict that takes place surrounding the unification of Germany in 1870. The Franco Prussian War, in which the Germans succeed in defeating Napoleon III and his armies and taking the Alsace Lorraine area, capturing Paris, in fact, and setting the table for the. The French demand that the Germans return that land to them after World War I. So, I mean, I don't know in particular which war it is, but it is certain that in less than eight years from the time this letter is written. There is violence and it's European, huge, huge armies. The Battle of Sudan is one of the largest battles takes place in Europe in the modern era, prior to World War I and World War II, and that's the Franco Prussian War. So maybe It's World War I that he has on mind and which is obviously even more devastating, but frankly, you don't even need to wait that long. War is being poured out and it gets poured out very quickly. In the midst of all these troubles, is there no city of refuge, no place for safety? Yes, there is. The meek and humble, the just and honest hearted, the virtuous, the morally upright and the simple. Of all nations confined home can find a home which God defends. And that home is with the saints who've been rejected and despised of all nations and hated by all people, who have been set at not by the builders, the stone which has fallen upon, but destined to become a great mountain. These saints are at present in the valleys of the rocky mountains and in their chambers with their far seeing eye of God beheld from the beginning, and his own hand reserved them with for a temporary home, and took a whip of small cords in the shape of an ungodly mob to drive us into it, and thus compelled us to comply with his invitation through the prophet Isaiah. Come, my people, enter thou into chambers, and shut thy doors about thee. Hide thyself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation be over and past. For behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity. And the earth shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. The latter day saints once had homes amongst other people, but other people and other powers would neither protect or defend them in their possession and enjoyment of them. Consequently we were forced away to the home which God provided for us, and he promised us here his own protection and defense. If we prove faithful to him, that any people, any power, or any force should be stretched out and armed to molest or oppress us, that people, that power or that force should be broken like a potter's vessel when smitten by an iron rod. I will fight your battles, saith the Lord. All who prefer protection of the Almighty to the protection of the crumbling powers of this world, and whose hearts are pure and honest enough to merit that protection, may come and share it. Come out of Babylon, my people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, that you may not receive her plague. He goes on to quote again from Isaiah. So I won't read the entire quote there. But he says, now, gentlemen, this is no ordinary communication. I have written it with much care and in good faith, with a desire to remove the veil in part from the eyes of my fellow men the world over. Should you appreciate the consequences of publishing or of suppressing it to one half the extent that I do, there could be no inducement held out to you sufficiently strong to incline you to suppress its power. Publication. You, sir, being a man of intelligence and comprehension, need no stronger language in this. My humble plea in favor of this communication having a place in your paper. Most respectfully, your obedient servant, Orson Hyde. And there it was published in the paper. Now it's published more as a mock. But you can see how the Latter Day Saints responded to the American Civil War. And before you start, I mean, because I know some people's skin is crawling a little bit, you know, this idea that, oh, all the violence of the Civil War, that's the judgments of God for the way they treated the Saints. I know that that makes some people feel uncomfortable. What, all these people are dying. All this is because of this. It's actually very, very, very similar to what Abraham Lincoln says in his second inaugural address. That this war is terrible, right? That both sides are praying to God. But if this war is a consequence of the national sin of slavery, which is where he puts it, then we have to say that the judgments of God are just altogether, is what Lincoln says. So the idea that the horrors of the Civil War are in some way a punishment from God, it's not a Latter Day Saint alone understanding. It's how Abraham Lincoln perceives it. But you can see how Latter Day Saints see it. They were driven out of their homes. They lost a thousand people along the way. They were forced to live in a. In a desert that no one else wanted. And because they were in that desert, there aren't active Latter Day Saints that are falling at the Battle of Shiloh. Who is falling at the Battle of Shiloh? Albert Sidney Johnston, the person who led the army to Utah to try to suppress it in 1857 and 1858. Latter Day Saints, in what you have to deem a miracle, are almost completely spared from the violence of the Civil War because they're not there. They're not being mustered into companies. They aren't trying to cross a bloody creek at Antietam. They aren't slogging it through the wilderness. And someone might say, ah, that just proves their disloyalty. That's certainly what the nation said. When the nation asked for troops, the Latter Day Saints provided them. And then very abruptly thereafter, the United States decided to occupy Utah rather than to continue to press for Latter Day Saint aid. So Orson Hyde's Please, at least in that respect, fell upon dead deaf ears. But as he said years earlier back in 1854, at the 4th of July oration in 1854, he he said there, there is going to be judgments and violence that come upon the nation because of what they've done to the Latter Day Saints. Now that makes an American very angry to hear someone say that. And yet Joseph's prophecy, the repeated statements of prophets following that seem to demonstrate that that really was the case. So thank you so much for joining us.
- [78:54]
A
Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.