Standard of Truth Podcast — S5E38

Episode Title: Orson Hyde and the Prophecy of the Civil War Part 2
Air Date: September 11, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard LeDuc

Episode Overview

This episode continues a deep dive into Orson Hyde's 1862 letter to the Missouri Republican and its connection to Joseph Smith’s Civil War prophecy (Doctrine & Covenants 87). The hosts, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard LeDuc, blend scholarly analysis, original sources, and wry humor to examine how Hyde’s reflections echo through Latter-Day Saint history, the American Civil War, and the ongoing struggle for religious liberty. Along the way, the show also tackles a listener email on the Trinity and the King James Bible, framing important doctrinal and historical context for Latter-Day Saints seeking to understand their faith.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Unearthing Historical Gems (00:46–04:11)

• Richard LeDuc reflects on the unpredictable process of historical discovery, sharing anecdotes about finding crucial details in overlooked sources—like township records or newspaper archives.
• Dirkmaat cautions against relying solely on established secondary sources (like Bushman’s works), emphasizing the value of direct archival research.
• Example: Dr. Philastus Hurlbut’s post-apostasy political rise in Kirtland is highlighted as an instance of unexpected finds ("He actually rides, you know, it’s a badge of honor." – Dirkmaat, 03:34).

2. Faith, Suffering, & Revelation: Christie’s Corner (05:35–13:49)

• The outlook and trials of early Latter-Day Saints are discussed through the lens of Doctrine & Covenants 101, which addresses the Saints’ violent expulsion from Zion (Missouri).
• Joseph Smith’s December 10, 1833, letter to the Missouri church is read and analyzed, revealing his pain, uncertainty, and faith:
  • "When I inquire concerning this subject, the voice of the Lord is, be still and know that I am God. All those who suffer for my name shall reign with me." (08:57)
• Key point: Even prophets do not always receive the answers they desire; sometimes, the answer from God is to "be still and know that I am God."
• Dirkmaat underscores this universal principle: "You do see the limitations of his office as a prophet of God... It doesn't mean that God always reveals it. Even when Joseph asks, even when it's of great import." (11:03)
• The hosts parallel these historic struggles to modern spiritual experiences—patience and enduring faith amid tribulation.

3. Mailbag: Trinity & the King James Bible (13:49–40:32)

a) Listener Question

Lacy asks how Christian traditions that believe in the Trinity reconcile it with seemingly contradictory King James Version (KJV) scriptures and inquires which denominations use the KJV.

b) Trinity Explained

• Dirkmaat sketches the classic Trinity diagram (Father, Son, Holy Spirit—each is God but not each other).
• The hosts note: Trinity is a mysterious, central article of orthodox Christianity, formalized after the Council of Nicaea (325 AD).
  • "Here, let me help you understand something that I don’t believe in and also that no one actually understands... that’s the mystery." (20:46)
• Any Christian group not accepting the Trinity—like Latter-Day Saints or Jehovah’s Witnesses—is typically viewed as heretical by mainstream Christians.

c) Scriptural Interpretation

• The challenge: Passages like Matthew 3:16–17 (the baptism of Jesus) portray the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as distinct.
• Some mainstream Christian approaches include:
  • Asserting only Jesus heard the Father's voice, or
  • Arguing it was an angel relaying God’s words ("The text in no way suggests an angel is speaking to Jesus... They’re trying to find a way around it." – Dirkmaat, 25:49).

d) Translation Choices

• KJV is historically widespread among American Protestant denominations; more modern translations (NIV, NRSV) are sometimes preferred for clarity.
• Dirkmaat points out that interpretations often start from a “Trinity-first” position—reading difficult passages in light of established doctrine rather than plain contextual meaning.
• Example of doctrinal bias: comparing John 1:18 in KJV versus NIV, showing how newer translations sometimes insert explicitly Trinitarian phrasing not in the KJV (39:37–40:01).

e) Broader Context

• Dirkmaat and LeDuc discuss how the idea of “one God” arose in Judaism and influenced early Christian debates, eventually necessitating the mystery of the Trinity to reconcile conflicting scriptural assertions of the divinity of Jesus and the Father’s unity.

Memorable Quote (Summing Up the Trinity Struggle):

"Part of the reason why the Trinity originated is in the ancient world it was the exact opposite of today... Monotheism was the most defining characteristic of Judaism... So when Christians say Jesus is God and the Father is God, how can there not be two gods? ...They eventually come to the Trinity as the explanation—in some great mystery you can’t comprehend."
—Dirkmaat (29:19)

4. Orson Hyde’s Letter & the Latter-Day Saints' Quest for Statehood (40:32–53:19)

• Context: In 1862, Utah (predominantly Latter-Day Saints) remained a territory, governed largely by federally appointed officials. Local church members were excluded from meaningful self-governance and frequently slandered by outsiders.
• A mass meeting aims to establish a state constitution and elect local leaders.
• Wilford Woodruff describes this assembly as a gathering of “prophets, apostles, priests, and saints of the most high God,” suggesting they were divinely ordained for this quest (46:45).

Federal Distrust & Hypocrisy

• Latter-Day Saints are ironically denied statehood on grounds of “disloyalty” even as southern states commit open rebellion.

"We're desperately trying to get in... You're like, 'no, no, you're not loyal Americans.' So we won't."
—Dirkmaat (46:47)

5. Reading Orson Hyde’s Letter: Prophecy, Accountability, and Civil War (53:19–78:54)

Summary of Hyde's Letter (with Commentary)

• Orson Hyde addresses Missouri, reminding them that the expulsion and suffering of the Mormons in the early 1830s have not been forgotten.
• He asserts that Missouri’s prosperity ended with the Saints’ exile, alluding to current suffering as divine retribution.
• Hyde reminds readers of Joseph Smith's prophecy:

  "If the government... did not redress the wrongs... the whole nation should be distracted by mobs from one end to the other... mobs to the full and to their heart's content." (62:32)

• He compares the Saints’ suffering to the current devastation of the Civil War, suggesting it is God's just response to the nation’s crimes against the Saints and the shedding of innocent blood.
• Hyde appeals for restitution:

  "Let some efficient measures be speedily adopted to bind up the wounds of the Mormon people by reinstating them in their rights and possessions..." (65:40)

• He prophesies further war—not only across America but spreading to Europe (specifically referencing the Rhine, evoking later Franco-Prussian and world wars).
• Hyde holds out a doctrine of refuge: those of meek and honest heart may find safety with the Saints in their God-protected home in the Rocky Mountains (73:40).

Notable Quotes (from Hyde’s letter, read aloud by Dirkmaat):

"Justice, though sometimes slow in its operation, is nevertheless sure to obtain its demands." (64:34)
"You have scarcely yet read the preface to your national troubles. Many nations will be drawn into the American maelstrom..." (70:46)
"All who prefer protection of the Almighty... may come and share it. Come out of Babylon, my people, that you may not be partakers of her sins, that you may not receive her plague." (74:39)

Host Commentary on the Spiritual Logic

• The idea that the Civil War was a divine punishment parallels Abraham Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address ("the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether").
• Latter-Day Saints’ historical trauma—exile, murder, and disinheritance—shaped their view that national suffering, like the Civil War, was a direct consequence of iniquity and neglect of divine justice.
• Dirkmaat notes the Saints’ practical exemption from Civil War carnage as further evidence of Providence.

Memorable and Humorous Moments

• Repeated self-deprecating jokes about podcast length and listener endurance.
  • “I think everyone stopped listening seven or eight hours ago.” (53:26)
• Lacy’s email turns into a running gag about delayed responses and mocked family members (14:44, 15:42, 53:35).
• “If you can't produce a product that anyone wants, produce one that people don't have anything better to do, and then they'll use it. That's our marketing strategy.” (53:55)
• The playful explanation of the Trinity math and indigestion with abstract theological concepts:
  • “A equals B and B equals C, then A must equal C. That’s the highest level of math.” (19:59)
  • “Let me help you understand something I don’t believe and that no one actually understands.” (20:46)

Important Timestamps

• 00:46–04:11: Research anecdotes and methodological approach
• 05:35–13:49: Sunday School/Christie’s Corner; Joseph Smith’s letter on the suffering of Zion
• 13:49–40:32: Listener question; analysis of the Trinity and the King James Bible
• 40:32–53:19: Utah statehood, political disenfranchisement, and the Saints’ pursuit of self-rule
• 53:19–78:54: Full reading and analysis of Orson Hyde’s letter; connections to D&C 87 and Civil War prophecy

Takeaways for Listeners

• Historical understanding: Latter-Day Saints’ unique perspective on U.S. history and prophecy is deeply rooted in their lived experience and scriptural worldview.
• Scripture & Doctrine: The episode thoughtfully explores both the textual and interpretive tensions between mainstream Christianity and LDS beliefs regarding the nature of God.
• Community & Faith: The episode balances serious historical reflection with humor and personal anecdotes, making intricate topics both accessible and engaging.

For further reading/listening:

• The full text of Orson Hyde’s 1862 letter
• Doctrine & Covenants 87, 101
• Abraham Lincoln’s Second Inaugural Address

Host Sign-off:

"You can see how Latter Day Saints responded to the American Civil War. And before you start, I mean, because I know some people’s skin is crawling a little bit... it’s actually very, very, very similar to what Abraham Lincoln says in his second inaugural address… So, thank you so much for joining us." (78:33)