Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth — S5E39 "Dead and in Hell Part 1"

Date: September 18, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc embark on an in-depth, often humorous exploration of a legendary moment in Latter-day Saint folklore: Did Brigham Young ever actually announce, from the pulpit, that the President of the United States had "died and gone to hell"? This question launches a sweeping historical discussion covering the Mormon Battalion, the Saints’ fraught relationship with the federal government, church politics in the late 1840s, and how these shaped their settlement in the West. Part one of this multipart series is heavy on context, lively listener Q&A, and the hosts’ characteristic banter.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Emails, Humor, and Community Building

(00:29–14:32, 18:42–26:44, 22:34–30:07)

• The episode opens with characteristic banter about scratched glasses, family antics, and playful self-deprecation.
• A recurring theme is the hosts’ backlog of emails and their standing commitment to read any message received from a listener in labor, unless, as joked, “we may need to adopt a one-child policy… one email per labor” ([05:23]).
• Listener "Sara" writes from labor, humorously questioning, “Is the pain of childbirth and the subsequent lifelong responsibility of caring for a child worth it just to get my email read on the Standard of Truth podcast?” ([07:37]).
• The hosts joke about naming days (noting that July 20, 1969, was the moon landing, but that July 20, AD 70, also saw the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple) ([12:07–13:17]).
• Lighthearted chiding about anti-American slander versus deep love of the United States—“You are a slanderer, sir. I love this church and I love America.” ([11:39])

2. Church Members and Violence Against Joseph Smith

(14:32–17:20)

• In response to Sara’s question, Dr. Dirkmaat affirms that multiple individuals boasted, after the fact, about possibly having shot Joseph Smith, most notably Frank Worrell.
• Worrell’s fate: later killed by Porter Rockwell after pursuing a lawman, demonstrating the violence and ongoing animosities of the era.
• Dirkmaat contextualizes boasting about Smith’s murder as a frequent, taunting epithet by hostile groups.

3. Questions About LDS Tours and Humor About Hershey, PA

(17:20–18:42)

• Upcoming church history tours are announced, with tongue-in-cheek references to insurance issues if visitors fall into the “chocolate river” at Hershey, furthering the hosts’ jocular style.

4. Brigham Young’s Supposed Conference Statement

(22:34–30:07; 30:07–69:21, main historical content)

• Listener email sparks the episode's main historical question: Did Brigham Young ever declare, during general conference, that the President of the United States had died and gone to hell, and then double down after government protest?

• Dirkmaat uses the question to launch into an expansive “setting of the stage”:

  • 1840s Mormon-Government Relations:

    • The Saints fled the U.S. to Utah Territory (then Mexican territory) seeking refuge from violent and legal prosecution.
    • The Mexican-American War and Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) transformed their haven into U.S. territory again, much to their chagrin ([46:23]).

  • The Mormon Battalion:

    • Latter-day Saints were asked to fight for the very government from which they’d been expelled.
    • Despite initial resistance, Brigham Young’s prophetic counsel led over 500 Saints to enlist, their wages supporting the impoverished Saints en route to Zion ([36:41]).
    • Brigham Young suspected nefarious motives; modern historians confirm Polk’s orders purposely kept the Mormon troop a minority and under watch ([41:10]).
    • Sacrifice is deeply highlighted: “They were going to follow a prophet of God when it was easy and when it was hard...” ([40:09])

  • Voting Strategies and Relations with Political Parties:

    • Detailed context on the Saints’ voting blocks in Iowa, illustrating how both Democrats and Whigs sought Mormon votes for narrow electoral advantages.
    • Explains the federal government’s power in territorial organization, governing via appointment rather than election ([58:31]).
    • The Saints strategically supported Whig Zachary Taylor in the 1848 presidential election, hoping it would favorably influence the formation of Utah Territory ([62:02]).

  • Setting Up the Myth:

    • By episode’s end the infamous “dead and in hell” episode is richly contextualized, but not answered outright—setting the stage for part 2.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Listener Dedication:
  “You can have as many kids as you want, but we can only read your email on one of the labors.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([05:23])

• On Namesakes & July 20:
  “Hopefully you named your son Buzz.” – Dr. Leduc, after noting the Apollo 11 moon landing anniversary ([12:22])

• On History and Feelings of Persecution:
  “It’s very simple for us in our nice high back chairs to say, well, they probably should have been more focused on this. Yeah, it’s super easy... when you aren’t the one being threatened with extermination.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([68:18])

• On Humor in Doctrine:
  “We celebrate the 4th of July like crazy. It’s just that also... there are times the United States has not been super friendly to Latter Day Saints.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([09:05])

• On Reluctance to Discuss a Thorny Subject:
  “At this point, it would probably be better for me to just talk about polygamy.” – Dr. Dirkmaat on diving into the Brigham Young/president/hell story ([30:07])

• On Sacrifice and Obedience:
  “If you ever find President Nelson teaching you something... and you, for whatever reason, don’t do it... you can thump your chest all you want and think you’d have left your family in the wilderness... You can think that, but I think sometimes we don’t realize that the reason why people were able to make these decisions is because they’d already made all the smaller decisions.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([40:11])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Humorous Personal/Mailbag/Family Discussion: 00:29 – 14:32, 18:42 – 26:44
• Did Anyone Brag About Killing Joseph Smith?: 14:32 – 17:20
• Brigham Young and the “Dead in Hell” Story is Raised: 22:34 – 30:07
• Historical Context – Expulsion, Mormon Battalion, Voting: 30:07 – 69:21
• Episode Climax & Promise of More: 68:00 – 69:21

Tone & Style

• Faithful & Scholarly: The hosts maintain a faithful, believing stance while deeply engaging with primary sources and historiographical debates.
• Witty & Self-Deprecating: The episode is laced with dry humor, inside jokes, and playful jabs at each other and their listeners.
• Detailed Storytelling: Historical context is unpacked through narrative, placing listeners in the mindset and circumstances of 19th-century Saints.

Conclusion & Tease for Next Episode

The episode ends with Dirkmaat promising that further answers about the infamous “dead and in hell” Brigham Young moment are forthcoming. With new, previously unused sources at hand, part two is set to deliver the exciting (and possibly controversial) conclusion as the hosts attempt to separate myth from history in one of the most colorful tales of Mormon folklore.

Useful For:
Anyone seeking a deep, lively, faith-friendly dive into the political and spiritual trials of early Utah Latter-day Saints, with insight into the very human anxieties and maneuverings behind legendary anecdotes. This episode is the robust prologue to a multipart answer to a classic “Did Brigham Young really say…” question, expertly contextualized for modern listeners.