S5E39 Dead and in Hell Part 1

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth — S5E39 "Dead and in Hell Part 1"

Date: September 18, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

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Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc embark on an in-depth, often humorous exploration of a legendary moment in Latter-day Saint folklore: Did Brigham Young ever actually announce, from the pulpit, that the President of the United States had "died and gone to hell"? This question launches a sweeping historical discussion covering the Mormon Battalion, the Saints’ fraught relationship with the federal government, church politics in the late 1840s, and how these shaped their settlement in the West. Part one of this multipart series is heavy on context, lively listener Q&A, and the hosts’ characteristic banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Emails, Humor, and Community Building

(00:29–14:32, 18:42–26:44, 22:34–30:07)

• The episode opens with characteristic banter about scratched glasses, family antics, and playful self-deprecation.
• A recurring theme is the hosts’ backlog of emails and their standing commitment to read any message received from a listener in labor, unless, as joked, “we may need to adopt a one-child policy… one email per labor” ([05:23]).
• Listener "Sara" writes from labor, humorously questioning, “Is the pain of childbirth and the subsequent lifelong responsibility of caring for a child worth it just to get my email read on the Standard of Truth podcast?” ([07:37]).
• The hosts joke about naming days (noting that July 20, 1969, was the moon landing, but that July 20, AD 70, also saw the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple) ([12:07–13:17]).
• Lighthearted chiding about anti-American slander versus deep love of the United States—“You are a slanderer, sir. I love this church and I love America.” ([11:39])

2. Church Members and Violence Against Joseph Smith

(14:32–17:20)

• In response to Sara’s question, Dr. Dirkmaat affirms that multiple individuals boasted, after the fact, about possibly having shot Joseph Smith, most notably Frank Worrell.
• Worrell’s fate: later killed by Porter Rockwell after pursuing a lawman, demonstrating the violence and ongoing animosities of the era.
• Dirkmaat contextualizes boasting about Smith’s murder as a frequent, taunting epithet by hostile groups.

3. Questions About LDS Tours and Humor About Hershey, PA

(17:20–18:42)

• Upcoming church history tours are announced, with tongue-in-cheek references to insurance issues if visitors fall into the “chocolate river” at Hershey, furthering the hosts’ jocular style.

4. Brigham Young’s Supposed Conference Statement

(22:34–30:07; 30:07–69:21, main historical content)

• Listener email sparks the episode's main historical question: Did Brigham Young ever declare, during general conference, that the President of the United States had died and gone to hell, and then double down after government protest?

• Dirkmaat uses the question to launch into an expansive “setting of the stage”:

  • 1840s Mormon-Government Relations:

    • The Saints fled the U.S. to Utah Territory (then Mexican territory) seeking refuge from violent and legal prosecution.
    • The Mexican-American War and Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (1848) transformed their haven into U.S. territory again, much to their chagrin ([46:23]).

  • The Mormon Battalion:

    • Latter-day Saints were asked to fight for the very government from which they’d been expelled.
    • Despite initial resistance, Brigham Young’s prophetic counsel led over 500 Saints to enlist, their wages supporting the impoverished Saints en route to Zion ([36:41]).
    • Brigham Young suspected nefarious motives; modern historians confirm Polk’s orders purposely kept the Mormon troop a minority and under watch ([41:10]).
    • Sacrifice is deeply highlighted: “They were going to follow a prophet of God when it was easy and when it was hard...” ([40:09])

  • Voting Strategies and Relations with Political Parties:

    • Detailed context on the Saints’ voting blocks in Iowa, illustrating how both Democrats and Whigs sought Mormon votes for narrow electoral advantages.
    • Explains the federal government’s power in territorial organization, governing via appointment rather than election ([58:31]).
    • The Saints strategically supported Whig Zachary Taylor in the 1848 presidential election, hoping it would favorably influence the formation of Utah Territory ([62:02]).

  • Setting Up the Myth:

    • By episode’s end the infamous “dead and in hell” episode is richly contextualized, but not answered outright—setting the stage for part 2.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Listener Dedication:
  “You can have as many kids as you want, but we can only read your email on one of the labors.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([05:23])

• On Namesakes & July 20:
  “Hopefully you named your son Buzz.” – Dr. Leduc, after noting the Apollo 11 moon landing anniversary ([12:22])

• On History and Feelings of Persecution:
  “It’s very simple for us in our nice high back chairs to say, well, they probably should have been more focused on this. Yeah, it’s super easy... when you aren’t the one being threatened with extermination.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([68:18])

• On Humor in Doctrine:
  “We celebrate the 4th of July like crazy. It’s just that also... there are times the United States has not been super friendly to Latter Day Saints.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([09:05])

• On Reluctance to Discuss a Thorny Subject:
  “At this point, it would probably be better for me to just talk about polygamy.” – Dr. Dirkmaat on diving into the Brigham Young/president/hell story ([30:07])

• On Sacrifice and Obedience:
  “If you ever find President Nelson teaching you something... and you, for whatever reason, don’t do it... you can thump your chest all you want and think you’d have left your family in the wilderness... You can think that, but I think sometimes we don’t realize that the reason why people were able to make these decisions is because they’d already made all the smaller decisions.” – Dr. Dirkmaat ([40:11])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Humorous Personal/Mailbag/Family Discussion: 00:29 – 14:32, 18:42 – 26:44
• Did Anyone Brag About Killing Joseph Smith?: 14:32 – 17:20
• Brigham Young and the “Dead in Hell” Story is Raised: 22:34 – 30:07
• Historical Context – Expulsion, Mormon Battalion, Voting: 30:07 – 69:21
• Episode Climax & Promise of More: 68:00 – 69:21

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Tone & Style

• Faithful & Scholarly: The hosts maintain a faithful, believing stance while deeply engaging with primary sources and historiographical debates.
• Witty & Self-Deprecating: The episode is laced with dry humor, inside jokes, and playful jabs at each other and their listeners.
• Detailed Storytelling: Historical context is unpacked through narrative, placing listeners in the mindset and circumstances of 19th-century Saints.

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Conclusion & Tease for Next Episode

The episode ends with Dirkmaat promising that further answers about the infamous “dead and in hell” Brigham Young moment are forthcoming. With new, previously unused sources at hand, part two is set to deliver the exciting (and possibly controversial) conclusion as the hosts attempt to separate myth from history in one of the most colorful tales of Mormon folklore.

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Useful For:
Anyone seeking a deep, lively, faith-friendly dive into the political and spiritual trials of early Utah Latter-day Saints, with insight into the very human anxieties and maneuverings behind legendary anecdotes. This episode is the robust prologue to a multipart answer to a classic “Did Brigham Young really say…” question, expertly contextualized for modern listeners.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[B]

Foreign. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[C]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back.

[B]

You paused a little bit there. Like, were you a little worried that you wanted to. You wanted. That was a pregnant pause.

[C]

It was a pregnant pause. I had my glasses for a week. I was roughhousing with the children. They fell off on the sidewalk, immediately scratched.

[B]

Your kids are adults now.

[C]

Well, that was why they were able.

[B]

To win the wrestling match.

[C]

We got some of these major, like, the really large boxing gloves, you know, I see the really large ones.

[B]

And your birthday.

[C]

Yes, for my birthday. It was a lovely birthday. It was quite the event. Becky threw quite the party with the whole family, and it was. It was great for kith and kin. And I was pummeling one of my children and I tripped and my glasses fell and scratched. So I had it coming.

[B]

So I. First of all, I don't know what's more surprising, that you were so careless with these expensive, highly created glass, but. Or that when they fell off of your face, that the house didn't suddenly get drawn into them because they have the density of a neutron. Funny.

[C]

What's funny is, is that, that I was afraid I was gonna get a shot in the face. You know, I was gonna get decked in the face. And so I put the glasses in my front pocket, and no one's ever.

[B]

Been punched in the chest in a balking well.

[C]

So I. So, you know, people think of me likely as a ballerina with. With all of the grace of. Of any sort of former Soviet ballerina company. But I tripped and then I fell and then they flew out and. And I said fudge, like the scene.

[B]

From Christmas Story, but I didn't say fudge. But.

[C]

So, yes, I'm back. I'm back in the glasses. So it's, it's not that I, I. The pregnant pause was just like, I wasn't sure if it was you or not.

[B]

I see. I see. So what you see on the screen now is just this huge, hideous blob mass. And I'm gonna pretend it's because you don't have glasses and you're not making commentary on my weight. All right, so very good. Thank you for. We are in the middle of the most dreaded part of standard of truth seasons for our listeners, and that is college and pro football because, you know, over the summer we kind of lose contact and you know, we're, we're, we're following WNBA and arena football games. I mean, I think Richard was commenting on some kind of Australian rugby at one point. I mean, there's, there's a lot of things that happen when you're, when you're desperate like that. But anyway, thank you so much for joining us. We, we've received, I have to, I do this apology all the time. One might say that if you make this mistake so many times, you're not really repenting. We apologize. We've received so many emails. I mean, just, we're literally receiving hundreds of emails a week and we read them all, but we don't have the ability to read all of them on the air, and we certainly don't have the ability to respond to all of them. But we, we, we kind of got crosswise, I think, with, with one of our listeners. Yeah.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

In our, in our quicksand of emails that, that flooded us. Yeah.

[C]

So this, this comes to us from friend of the show, from, from family friend of the show, Sara. And she had a child and, and.

[B]

In fact emailed us while she was.

[C]

In labor on the 20th of July. Garrett.

[B]

Well, yeah, we, we've had a busy summer. We are, we are roughly two months behind.

[C]

The child is preparing for baptism. Garrett.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Her son was just called to the Kenya Nairobi mission. It's a wonderful day for everybody. But, you know, in some ways I think maybe Sarah, you know, she, she took advantage of our. We'll read your email on the air if you write to us when you're in labor. Because she keeps having kids.

[C]

Yeah, she keeps having kids.

[B]

And so we thought we may need to adopt a one child policy where you can have as many kids as you want. But we can only read your email. We can only read your email on one of the labors. Is that.

[C]

I don't think that's a good policy.

[B]

I was talking to one of our consultants, Chairman Mao, and he said that he thought he loved the idea.

[C]

Yeah, he loved it.

[B]

Yeah, he was a champion of the idea.

[C]

Also. Garrett, let me poorly read Sarah's email here.

[B]

Dear doctors, you need to tell them how we got reminded of this email.

[C]

Oh, this is very funny. So, yeah, Sarah sent us an email just this last week, I believe just.

[B]

A few days ago.

[C]

It was a picture of her no longer of her toddler now essentially and.

[B]

Picture of him getting the priesthood.

[C]

And they. It was the scowl on this kid's face. He just angry.

[B]

It was a very angry people like what a beautiful baby picture. This was an angry baby picture like a baby that's about. He's thinking of ways to do you in this baby. Yeah.

[C]

Yes. So, so we were reminded and I'm not going to read that email because she was.

[B]

When you've been alive for eight weeks and you still haven't been mentioned on the center of the podcast. That was the, that was the caption of the picture.

[C]

It was very.

[B]

Anyway, we, we, we will we, we repenting and, and we'll read at least some of it or all of it. I don't know what your plan is, Richard.

[C]

Yes. Yes.

[B]

Well, I mean you can't read anything right now, so you'll.

[C]

Well, the time has finally come. Two and a half months ago. It has almost three months ago. It has been nine months in the scheming or actually two months. Excuse me. I was getting ahead of myself. It is. It has been nine months in the scheme.

[B]

Pretty sure she was pregnant for though that is true. The way you just corrected yourself there made it sound like made it seem she was only pregnant.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

For two months.

[C]

Scheming to ensure that I can have another email read on the air. But I believe everything is lined up perfectly and you are by verbal contract obligated to read this email. I realize it's old hat now since it seems like everybody's doing it. I think we've had think we've had four, five lots of husbands of wives in labor doing it. But I am also sending this while I'm in labor at the hospital getting ready to deliver a baby. The real question is, is the pain of childbirth and the subsequent lifelong responsibility of caring for a child worth it just to get my email read on the Standard of Truth podcast?

[B]

There's not even, there's not even a question. I mean we have long said that we are going to contribute to the increase in the fertility rate among our listeners solely so that they can get their email read or the dishonesty of our listeners as they try to AI scheme their way around the labor email policy.

[C]

I was relieved as the 4th of July came and went without giving birth because I figured that if our son was born on the fourth of July, that would invalidate the read your labor email on air guarantee. Since Garrett's Least favorite holiday because he hates America. What is the fourth of July? Thankfully?

[B]

Slander. This is slander. I love America. And also I hold. I host a gigantic, gigantic fourth of July celebration every year. And we even have to get a permit from the city to close down the roads. And my friends and neighbors, Jobless Rob's out there helping me. We, we light off a bunch of fireworks. We. We celebrate the 4th of July like crazy. It's just that also. Well, there are times that the United States has not been super friendly to Latter Day Saints in America's past.

[C]

I think I may have said this before when. So we put out the Mexican flag on Pioneer Day, which is hilarious and sure going for the joke on that, but you know, only kind of. We had a neighbor come up ask my wife about it and she says we love America, just not on Pioneer Day.

[B]

Yep, we weren't in America for Pioneer Day. We were in Mexico.

[C]

Yeah, that's right. About a week ago. So this is about two and a half months ago now. My husband and I were trying to do our own bit of research to find exciting, significant church history events on our son's upcoming birthday. But it seems like the Saints had a streak of bad luck during most July's for the first few years. Our favorite was July 20th of 1833. Vigilantes demanding removal of Latter Day Saints from Jackson County, Missouri. Destroying the printing office and independence and scattered pages and I don't even like.

[B]

That call out because it used the word vigilante. I can't stand it. One of Garrett's pet peeves. You want to see the dander meter go from like arresting? I don't know. What's my resting rate of dander?

[C]

We. Based on. On a million. Right? So I think you're, you're, you're sitting like watching general conference at 200. Like just, just calm and easy watching.

[B]

General conference raging just because you.

[C]

Well, no, 200 isn't raging, but 200, you know that tweets are coming and that makes you angry.

[B]

It is true that there is part of me that while I'm listening and enjoying the talks, there's a whole back part of my brain that's going like, guarantee someone's going to post this.

[C]

You text me. You, you're live texting me when President Oaks. Oh no, this is going to make me mad. Someone's going to say something about this.

[B]

And no, I love the talks. No. Yeah, you're not, you're not saying, oh.

[C]

I hate.

[B]

Somehow, you know, you've turned me into Somebody who hates America and the church all the same. You are a slanderer, sir. I love this church and I love America.

[C]

Yes, we're not sure if our son will be born on the 20th or the 21st, but my husband and I would appreciate it if you could tell us if there are more positive, exciting church or American or world history events that happen on either of those days. Now, Gary, we. We put the crack research staff on it.

[B]

Oh, nice.

[C]

And the 20th had a couple of.

[B]

The 20th has an amazing one.

[C]

Yeah, it does. On July 20, 1969, Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin became the first humans to walk on the moon during the Apollo 11 mission.

[B]

There you go. So hopefully you named your son buzz.

[C]

And on July 20, 1976, the Viking 1 Lander, the unmanned US probe, made its first success landing on Mars.

[B]

No, it wasn't all positive because I also discovered that the 20th of July, AD 70 happened to be the time when Titus, your son's namesake.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

No, no. Titus, my son, is named after the book in the New Testament.

[C]

Oh, sure.

[B]

So happens that. That Titus is no doubt named after. No, that. That in A.D. 70, that's when Titus, the son of Emperor Vespasian, breached the walls into where the Temple Mount is and storm into Jerusalem and. And. And destroy Jerusalem.

[C]

If only someone.

[B]

That's not as positive a day.

[C]

If only someone would have said something and they could have seen it coming. If only.

[B]

Yeah. If only someone would have said, there will not be one stone standing on top of another.

[C]

Now, for. For the 21st, we had something that wasn't quite as good as Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin, but Pablo Escobar broke out of prison on July 21, 1991. So I don't know.

[B]

It was a much. A much gianter leap than one Neil.

[C]

Armstrong prison as he.

[B]

From prison to the waiting van, that.

[C]

If we would have gotten to this sooner, they probably. They probably could have probably. They probably could have named their child Pablo or Neil or Buzz or Titus.

[B]

Pablo. Buzz. Titus Cutler.

[C]

That just rolls off the tongue.

[B]

It does. You know what? Get back to us on what you decided to name and let's see if we're right.

[C]

So she did have some questions here. I do have two more questions if you have time for them. We don't, but we'll read them because we're two and a half months late. You may have already addressed one, so I'm so sorry if I repeat, but did anyone in particular brag about being the one to have shot Joseph? That's an Interesting question.

[B]

There are multiple people who will, over the course of time, make that claim, but one of them happens to be Frank Worrell. And Frank Worrell, or Worrell, I don't know how you say his name. Frankly, I. I'm not terribly interested in how you say his name. He is a leader of the mobocrats, and he will meet an untimely demise after. So he will at least publicly say that he was one of the people that shot Joseph Smith. Now, of course, because they, you know, in giant air quotes, you know, try to arrest and prosecute the people who murdered Joseph and Hyrum in the immediate aftermath, there's not a whole lot of people coming out and saying, I did it, I did it, I did it. You know, because they don't want to be arrested. But at least the Latter Day Saints seem to believe that this. Frank Worrell has often boasted that he was one of the people that shot Joseph Smith. Well, surprisingly, his murderous ways have not reached their end, because he will then later in 1845, he will be chasing the non Latter Day Saint sheriff. He and a group of other men find Sheriff Backenstos, you know, basically by himself, and they decide they're going to try to kill him. So they start chasing after him on their horses. And Backenstoss is. Is hustling as fast as he possibly can to try to make it back to Nauvoo where it's safe. And as he, as he comes over the rise, he's, you know, there's Porter Rockwell on the other end of the. Of, you know, the ridge, basically. And, you know, he's yelling out to Porter Rockwell, they're trying to kill me. They're trying to kill me. Help me. Help me. And Porter Rockwell takes aim and takes a shot and, and kills Frank Worrell. And the. The sheriff is the one who, you know, told them to save him. And of course, then the other pursuers break up and they leave and they go the other direction. So there's at least one person. It becomes a fairly common epithet when people are taunting Latter Day Saints to claim that they're the ones who shot Joseph Smith. So it'll happen multiple times in. In Latter Day Saint history from various groups of soldiers, angry people, you know, so. But at least in that. That was closer to the event where people. He said that he was.

[C]

Her next question is they live outside of Hershey, Pennsylvania, and they were wondering when we would be kind of, you know, near where they're from on our tour. And so we do have the 2026, you're going to be Palmyra, Kirtland, July 12th through the 18th and June 14th through the 20th, I believe. And then our 2027 tour just sold out for Palmyra through Kirtland, and that's the 6th through the 12th, two years from now when her son will be returning from his mission.

[B]

Right. I mean, the main reason why, you know, the schedule on the tours is obviously very tight. So I've been to Hershey, Pennsylvania. I would love to take a group to Hershey, Pennsylvania. My biggest fear is that someone will fall into the Chocolate river and we'll have an Augustus Gloop situation. I feel like, how do you even get insurance for a tour group going there? If any of them happen to love chocolate and have a German name, how would I vet that?

[C]

It's tough. It's absolutely impossible.

[B]

I think.

[C]

I don't know that it is necessarily possible. I think that there might be certain insurance company, Lloyds of London perhaps could create a special type of insurance for that.

[B]

But we should have had them insure your eyes.

[C]

We should, we should have. Well, so, Garrett. So anyways. So, Sarah, thank you so much for the wonderful email two and a half months ago. And congratulations on the birth of your lovely son Pablo. Now, Garrett, this next email comes to us from Brian. About two years ago, my good friend Damian recommended your podcast to me. And in that time I've listened to all of it, including the premium content. I just wanted to.

[B]

He must be listening to us on like 30 times speed.

[C]

I recommend it.

[B]

Yeah, we are a high pitched wine that sounds like a super collider at this point to him in the way he's listening.

[C]

I just wanted to thank you for your dedication and effort in making the show happen week after week. I'm especially grateful for Garrett's themes that he carefully weaves throughout his messages. The true nature of Christ, the importance of spiritual witness, the power of doctrine covenants, section 76. All pillars of light and knowledge restored through the prophet Joseph. Thank you. Catching up on the podcast tends to feel a bit like time traveling as the contextual references of life are peppered throughout your comments, often from sports references I am able to place when an episode was recorded.

[B]

That's funny.

[C]

It's made me wish I could actually time travel only so I could place bets against every score and outcome Richard has ever recommended.

[B]

That's funny.

[C]

I could pull a reverse bift.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, you could. If you could get this DeLorean up to 88, you could be a millionaire just by picking against Richard's picks where.

[C]

The podcast is by Almanac and. And I only bet on whomever Richard said would lose. I promise that if I ever figure that out, I'll donate all of it to Sweetwater Rescue. Anyway, I have two sons serving in the Philippines, 200 miles apart and of course, speaking different languages. And then they ask for the access to their sons, which of course we will grant here. But that. Brian, thank you very much for the very kind. Very kind to you.

[B]

I actually got a note.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

In my office. So I'm rarely in my office because I'm working on this special church history project for the church, and I do most of my work from home at this point, which means that I occasionally go to the office and find, you know, a very kind colleague has dropped off cookies for me six weeks ago, and they're not as soft as when he first baked them. They are not. Not as soft. Let's put it that way. Yeah.

[C]

Sarah's like, tell me about it.

[B]

Yeah, it's like, oh, really? So you might be blind. So this note, I'm guessing, came from Education Week in August.

[C]

Oh, okay. A couple weeks ago.

[B]

And this is what it says. Hey, Garrett, longtime litters came by to say how disappointed we are in your consistently unpolished and irreverent podcast. Keep up the poor work. And it's from the Bennions and the Barrett's. And P.S. my wife began delivery as we were dropping this off, so we would appreciate a shout out on your next podcast. Well, you know what? By next, it was the next time I got the note. Actually, I've been to the office multiple times, but for whatever reason, the note was behind where my door opens. Like they'd slid it under the doors behind where my door opens. And so I never saw it until I shut the door. Because usually I have the door open when I'm in there. And I shut the door and I'm like, oh, my goodness, what's this? And, you know, at first I thought it was a ransom note, but instead it ended up being this. So thank you to the Barretts and Bennions for, I guess, the praise of the. The Unpolished podcast.

[C]

Well, so, Garrett, this. This next email comes to us from a regular litner, and the subject is Brigham Young announces in general conference the death of the President of the United States. Now, just earlier, you talked about the slander against you and your anti American ways. And so I think this email puts that.

[B]

What a perfect email to demonstrate that I've never said anything like that. Yes, let's see how the rest of this podcast plays out.

[C]

Yes. I once heard a story. That's a great way to talk about Brigham Young, by the way. That's. That's how they all begin.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I once heard a story about Brigham Young announcing in the morning session of general conference that the President of the United States had died and gone to hell. Now that. Could you imagine?

[B]

It would be. It would be a pretty big move. President Nelson. Yeah. I don't see President Nelson doing. But I do see President Hinckley doing it. President Governor Ford wanted to let everybody know. Yeah. And he wouldn't let us put a temple in D.C. so have you seen.

[C]

That clip with President Hinckley? It's made its way on social media. It's a fairly popular clip where he's talking about how the air conditioning has gone out in the conference center. Or not. It wasn't the conference center, it was the tabernacle at the time. Okay. So the air conditioner goes out. It's very, very hot. And so President Hinckley comes in and he says, brothers and sisters, we are aware of the air conditioning issue. We are very sorry. We know that it's very hot in here. Here. But if you don't repent, it's going to be a lot hotter for all of you.

[B]

I remember that. I remember. I do. I've seen this. Yes. What a great, hilarious president he was. He was the prophet of my youth. And just. Man, I. I remember. So when I was on my mission in Wisconsin, there was no temple. In my mission, in order to have a temple, I'm told you have to have members to staff it. And so I've heard tell.

[C]

And go to it.

[B]

Yeah. Right. Richard, was there. Was there a temple anywhere near your mission?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, there was. So I was in Riverside, California. And so twice a year we were able to go to the temple kind of as a. As a. As a mission. And so we. Yeah, so we would either. It was either. Depending on where you were serving, you.

[B]

Might go to San Diego.

[C]

You could either go to San Diego or la. And then after. After my mission, the Redlands temple was. Was built. And so that for a time was in my temple. The boundaries have changed a bit, but so there was. The temple was about an hour away.

[B]

Well, so one of the issues we didn't have on my mission was which temple are we closest to that we'll be going to for you?

[C]

It was also LA or San Diego, because.

[B]

Yeah. So there's. So look, the first thing I thought of when they announced they're going to build a temple in Wisconsin. Was. I guess we're going to be shipping a bunch of senior missionaries there to staff the place. That was the first. But obviously the church has grown since then because I'm no longer the poor. The poor vessel delivering the message. People after me actually converted people. And so there's more members there now.

[C]

Started with faith and not King Follet.

[B]

Yeah. It's funny, like, they were like, we'd like to share with you a message about Jesus. And I was like, I'd like to tell you about how we're all going to become like God. It's actually the purpose of this life. Let me read to you something about how you read that. Let me pull back the curtain. Yeah, let me pull back the curtain. You suppose that God was God from all eternity. I will defy that idea. And I'm just quoting that on the doorstep. And surprisingly, it was not as effective as you think it would be crazy. But I remember at the one time we got to leave our mission because. So we didn't get. We never got permission to go down to the Chicago temple. There was a temple in Chicago. Yeah, sure could have gotten. We were never granted permission to go, primarily because we were already all driving our cars illegally to Canada and to the Wisconsin Dells. I'm guessing I was.

[C]

In fairness, I do understand it. So, like, your mission would so large that it was gigantic. If you could have people serving in Milwaukee and they're relatively close, but you have people serving way north. They would never be.

[B]

Someone's in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. They're gonna hit four deer before they even make it to Escanaba to start trying to get down out of there. So. Sure. Only, you know, that's for all of our Upper Peninsula listeners who are also deer. It's surprising. It's the. The. They're the both getting hit by cars and then also our listeners. So. But the whole point is, I remember the one time we got to leave our mission. President Hinckley came to the United center and he came and spoke, and they let us go down. We bust down. And I gotta tell you, in the. The place is packed. I mean, it's to the gills. Members of the church missionaries and. And I've never. I wasn't in the United center when Michael Jordan won his championships, but I can't imagine that the feeling was any less electric when President Hinckley walked in and that whole place stood. And I can still feel how the spirit like a thunderclap Said to me that this man is like the prophet Elijah of old and, and you know, just a great, great leader, great leader of the church. That wasn't the point of this. Sorry, I got a little, little weepy eyed thinking. I'm just trying to delay me talking about something that's going to upset everyone. But you know, what the, the, the, this story, you know, about the President, there's a lot of details behind it. If I go into it, it's going to be a multiple episode and, and it's going to be some dander things going on. So I don't know.

[C]

Well, so here, let me, let me, let me. Supposedly a representative of the government was present during the conference session to ensure Brigham Young and or members of the church were not either speaking negatively or causing an uprising against the United States. This representative met with Brigham Young after the session and told him to retract his statement that he made previously in the morning session regarding President dying and going to hell. Brigham Young promptly announced in the afternoon session that he had announced that the President of the United States had died and gone to hell and that he wanted to correct that statement. He then said that the President had died and gone to hell and he was sorry. My question is, did this happen and who is the President of the United States that Brigham Young was referencing?

[B]

So there's a lot of. You have no idea the number of landmines you just stepped on. I feel like you were walking across the field just open, thinking it was sunny and happy birds were tweeting and, and you didn't realize you'd walked into an active landmine.

[C]

Would you rather, would you rather just talk about polygamy?

[B]

At this point, it would probably be better for me to just talk about polygamy. So let me tell you a little bit about this story. I'm going to try to be brief. I'm not going to be able to be brief. We are going to have to have people email in and say, I don't want you to finish this story. Because this, look, this touches on the expulsion of the Saints from the country. The Mormon Battalion, William Smith, Brigham Young, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo.

[C]

There we go. That'll bring us back. Yeah.

[B]

I can't just simply pretend that the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo doesn't exist. I can't. I'm done pretending, David. So the reason why I said there's a lot of backstory there. Is this all what you're remembering hearing? There are some details that are a little bit different, but that's what it's like when you're trying to remember what someone has once said or what you read at some point. It's referencing an exchange that happens in Utah in 1851. So just, you know, very brief, very brief backstory here. Very brief. When Adam was first. No, in 18. In 1847, Richard just fell out of his chair. Okay, there, he's back. Okay, good. In 1847, when the latter Day Saints are expelled from the country, when they leave, they go to, you know, Iowa and then to winter quarters. When they arrive in Utah, what, what will later become Utah. At the time, it's part of Upper California. It's part of Mexico. It will within a year and a half become part of, of the United States territory because of the Treaty of Guadalupe hid Hidalgo. So the, the, the Saints are driven out of the country before the Mexican War starts. And then in the midst of the Mexican War, while they are in Iowa and suffering, the federal army officers come and say that the President wants you to raise some troops. And this actually leads to a. It leads to a huge controversy among some of the members. Wilford Woodruff is one of the people that's present in Mount Pisgah when these first troops on horses ride over the hill. And the reaction of the camp isn't, oh, my goodness, look at some American soldiers. Yay, they're here to protect us. We're out here in the wilderness. Nope. The reaction is people start running and screaming. And that's because by the time the Saints left the United States, they had been told by multiple sources that the federal government was sending an army to destroy them. One of their, the Saints own guy, Samuel Brannan in D.C. claimed he had some very close contacts in the Cabinet of the United States presidency. So how much closer you going to get? And he quoted the Secretary of War as saying that it will not do to let the Mormons stay or to go to Mexico, but they must be exterminated from the earth. Well, that, that, that doesn't bring happy feelings. If any of you received a text message that the Secretary of Defense, maybe, maybe it will be the Secretary of War again at some point. But the Secretary of Defense said it won't do to have Mormons existing in this country. They must be exterminated. You're not going to be excited the next time you see military personnel. They find out, no, we're actually here to raise troops for the war. We're at war with Mexico. And you can tell what Wilford Woodruff's response is. He thinks, no, they're just Spies. This is a lie they're giving us so they can figure out what our numbers are so they can come kill us. But they go eventually on to winter quarters and they meet with Brigham Young. And it's a pretty miraculous thing, honestly, because all of the Latter Day Saints, they aren't about, hey, I just slogged all the way through Iowa. I just lost everything I had at the hands of a mob. I didn't even get to sell the things I had because I was told if we didn't get out, we'd be killed. In fact, I was told that if we didn't get out in the middle of winter, that the federal government was coming to exterminate us. That's what Governor Ford told them as well. My personal favorite and President Hinckley's Governor Ford. So you slogged your whole way across Iowa. You have watched dozens and dozens of people die because of exposure and because of disease. And here comes this army troop riding up saying, hey, instead of going to your new safe haven in the wilderness somewhere a thousand miles away, you need to sign up and fight for the country that just drove you out and caused all of these deaths. So as you might imagine, in the initial call for troops, there's not a ton of people flocking to the standard until Brigham Young intervenes. And Brigham Young, as a prophet, perceives that it's in the best interest of the Latter Day Saints to sign up. And so he tells the brethren, we need to enlist. And so you know what people's, you know what people already thought by the fact that the initial enlistment got almost nobody. And then Brigham Young spoke, and then hundreds of men and dozens of women, 550 people out of this band. The percentages of Latter Day Saints that join up to fight in the Mormon Battalion is a higher percentage than the number of people from the state of New Jersey that go fight in the Mexican War. Wow. The percentage of the population of the Latter Saints and, and sorry, not even percentage. I, I said that wrong. The aggregate number, not just percentage wise. We probably dusted everybody because out of 10,000 people, we're throwing 550 of them, most of our young, able bodied men. There are more total numbers of Latter Day Saints that serve in the Mexican War than there are total numbers of people from the state of New Jersey that serve in the Mexican War. That's, that's incredible when you look at the disparity in population. So Brigham Young, though, perceives that the. I said this was going to be short. Why did I, Why Did I even talk about this? Brigham Young perceives that. That it's right. He knows that. That there's something amiss with the government, but he is not sure what it is. But the men sign up, they agree to sign over their pay over to the church, and then the church uses that money to help get many more poor people, wagons and food to get more people across the plains. So those men who go off and sacrifice to fight for the battalion, they aren't just sacrificing potentially their lives and certainly months of horrible toil and, you know, the longest infantry march in American history. They're also donating all of their pay to the poor members of the church who wouldn't be able to make it across the plains otherwise. Someone asked me today, actually, if the Prophet asked us to do something like Zion's camp, do you think people would. Would do it? And my response was, man, I sure hope so. But I gotta tell you, if you ever find President Nelson teaching you something, urging you to do something, pleading with you to do something, and you, for whatever reason, don't do it, find excuses for why you don't need to do it, or even worse, criticize what he's asked you to do, because you just know so much more about whatever he's talking about. I mean, you. You can thump your chest all you want and think you'd have left your family in the middle of the wilderness and walked 2,000 miles, possibly into death's door against the Mexican army while signing away all of your money to the church. You can think that, but I think sometimes we. We don't realize that the reason why people were able to make these decisions is because they'd already made all the smaller decisions. That the fact that someone was able to give up everything and potentially go fight and die for a country that hated them is because they had already made the smaller decisions, that they were going to follow a prophet of God when it was easy and when it was hard and when it was convenient and when it wasn't and when it made sense and when it didn't. And so they signed up. And it's true that none of them die in battle, but several of them die of disease along the way. There are people who walk out of winter quarters who never walk back to their families because they're going on that Mormon Battalion march. So it's, It's a huge sacrifice. Well, very quickly thereafter, one of the things, the one thing that Brigham Young asks of the federal officials there, the military guys there, look, we're trying to get. We're trying to get out of Dodge in part because you people are murdering us. So if we send all of these young men to go fight, we're not going to be able to get all of our wagons out of the country, out of U.S. territory. So if we do this, you have to agree to let us stay here on this, you know, what is technically unorganized Indian territory. Because the Latter Day Saints had already negotiated with the Indians to stay where they were staying. They were already on good terms with the Indians, but the federal government hadn't given them permission to settle where they were at temporarily there in winter quarters. And so he says, look, we'll do this, but you have to grant us the right to stop here because we can't go any further. And then we'll be able to move on once people get back and we have more time to gather up. And the federal troops, I mean, they readily agree to that? Oh, absolutely. We'll send a message to Polka da da da da da da da and in the immediate aftermath of that, after the battalion leaves, the local federal officials, the federal Indian agents, begin incessantly harassing the Saints and demanding that they leave winter quarters and that they're not allowed to be there. And Brigham Young keeps saying, no, I have this agreement with the army that we're allowed to stay here. And as that kind of percolates over time, I think Brigham Young discerns that Polk was not keeping his word, that he'd never intended this. There must have been something more nefarious about the calling of the Mormon Battalion. Now we have. How many episodes on the Mormon Battalion do we have, Richard? We have four. Four. This is a four parter. So I'm going to do a five parter here. No, but. But you should go back and listen to those. Can we talk about. And one of the things we talk about is that Brigham Young was right. There was something nefarious. In fact, James Polk says in his journal that the only reason he's calling the Mormons into military service is to prevent them from joining with the Mexicans or the British during the middle of the war, because he knows that they've been treated like garbage. He knows that they could readily be swept up by some other nation. And so he, knowing that they serve no military purpose whatsoever, calls them into the army, but then has a secret order along with it to make sure that their number never exceeds a third of the other non Mormon troops around them so that the other two thirds can put them down when they become the traitorous rebels that he believes them to be. So Brigham Young didn't know why he felt uneasy about why Polk called the Mormon Battalion. Historians now know, because we have Polk's journals, but he did. And so by the time they got to Salt Lake, the Saints, that they felt that James Polk had deliberately tried to hurt them by the calling of the battalion. Now, what happens over the course of the next several years? Well, in 1848, there's an election. Well, in 1848, the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo makes all of the Mexican territory, you know, north of the Rio Grande makes it American territory. Now, some of this is pretty easy because it's just like part of Texas, which was already an annexed state, but all of what is today California, Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, half of Colorado, part of Wyoming, all of Utah, all of that area was all part of this land ceded by Mexico in the treaty. And so all of a sudden, the Latter Day Saints find themselves right back in. They jumped out of the frying pan into the fire. They literally just walked 2,000 miles to get outside of the United States. And the second they got outside of the United States, where they moved, became part of the United States. I can only imagine it's similar to someone who's, you know, like, they're tired of living next to like a. An hourly rent motel somewhere that's in a bad part of town. And they, so they're like, you know what, we got to move. We got to get a house somewhere. They move to the other side of town, they build a house, and on the lot next to them, someone sets up an hourly rate hotel. I mean, I think that that's, that's what they feel like.

[C]

That's a pretty good analogy. Yeah.

[B]

Tried to get away and, and US Expansionism caught us as fast as we could leave it. So now you're in this really weird situation. Well, we're back in US Territory, but we're. We were driven out of US Territory. So what do we do now? In the. In the months leading up to the election, the Latter Day Saints made a decision in Iowa. So Iowa's the newest state in the Union, and so they're going to vote in the 1848 election. And one of the most hilarious parts about American politics is if you think things have never been the way they are now, you just haven't read anything from American politics. You just haven't. In Iowa, the last, you know, organized part of U.S. territory before the Saints leave, there's still thousands of Latter Day Saints in Iowa because, you know, winter quarters and then Council Bluffs is. It's the jumping off point, right? I mean, so you, you, you, you, you come from England, you, you immigrate all the way to, across. You get to St. Louis and you make your way to Iowa. And now you've got to kind of rest and regroup in order to make it all the way across the mountains and into the valley. So there are thousands of members who don't go to Salt Lake in that, that first year. And they're gathering and preparing, but they also happen to be living in Iowa. Well, Iowa's a state. And in one of the greatest ironies of all politics that's ever taken place in the history of America, ever, the Latter Day Saints that had been driven out of the country because they were not recognized as true Americans, suddenly were recognized as people who had the ability to vote in Iowa by conspiring Iowa politicians. So while the Mormons are there in winter quarters, they get visited by essentially the head of the Iowa Democratic Party party. You know, you'd call them like, you know, a party chairman today. But, you know, this is basically the organizer for the Democratic Party. Well, what does he know about Mormons? He knows that Mormons are solid Democrat voters. That the whole reason that the Whigs in Illinois went super anti Mormon is that once Joseph Smith said he wasn't going to back Henry Clay, the Whig candidate for president, anymore in the 1844 election, that there was no way that Illinois was going to fall to the Whigs and, you know, 5,000 votes is going to separate it and the Whigs aren't going to be able to win it. And so, you know, here the Latter Day Saints are on the extreme western edge of Iowa. And Iowa is established as a state, but it's the newest state. All of the settlements in Iowa are along the Mississippi river because that's where people live. So. So nobody lives in western Iowa. I know that there's people listening right now that are like, no one lives in western Iowa now. I get it. Someone's doing their best Waldorf impression and they're like, that's because it's Iowa. But this is far more rural then than you can even think of now. And so the Democratic Party chair comes and he actually tries to convince them not to leave. Hey, guys. You guys don't need to be like, hurrying out of the country, like, got a big election coming up. It'd be kind of great if you guys, like, stayed for, I don't know, another six months to a year. So he's trying to Convince them to not leave before the 1848 election. Because I was very evenly divided between Whigs and Democrats. And I know it's hard to believe that a political party would care more about winning than literally anything else. But In Iowa in 1848, this was true. It's hard, you have to suspend disbelief to imagine a world where politicians cared only about winning. But sadly, that was what our nation was in the past. You know, it was a place where a politician would do or say anything to win. And it's tough, it's tough to see that. But you know what? Luckily we are now in the 21st century. So it's not just the Democrats though that are trying to woo these Latter Day Saint voters. So this is what the Democratic Party does. They are so desperate to get all these Mormon votes that they change the laws in Iowa. So the laws in Iowa said that you had to vote in an established county at the county seat. And that's how it was for most states. Well, the Mormons are living in this totally unorganized, non county area of western Iowa. So the Democrats rammed through the legislature because they control the legislature barely and they have the governorship. They rammed through a law granting the Mormons the right to vote by westward extension of the supposed county boundaries and allowing them polling places there in what they call Potawatomi, even though it wasn't an organized county. So the Democrats, they're doing their look, they're all about it. We're going to get these Mormon votes before they leave and we're going to win this election. But they're not the only ones courting Latter Day Saint votes. The Whig leader of Latter Day of Iowa Whigs who is at a deficiency, his party is out of office. They, they don't hold any statewide offices, but they are very close. All of the elections are razor thin, but they are in the minority every time. It's, it's like watching presidential elections in, in like Texas or Minnesota, right, where it's like it's going to be close. It's gonna be close. It's always the same result. But it's gonna be close. No, it's the same result. You know, you always get, people always get ginned up. Maybe this time Texas is going to flip to the Democrats. No, it didn't, you know, same thing. Minnesota. No, this time Minnesota is going to go Republican. Except that it didn't. And well that's, you know, so it was like that Iowa was razor thin, but Democrat control. So the Whigs meet with the church leaders and try to, you know, their pitch to them is, hey, in the 1848 election, the great hero of the Mexican War, the hero of the Battle of Buena Vista, is Zachary Taylor. The Battle of Buena Vista is probably the most important battle of the entire war. I mean, it is General Winfield Scott who will make the march. He'll land at Veracruz and make the march all the way to Mexico City and storm the ramparts of Chapultepec. He's the one who brings the war to its close. And by the way, Richard, we'll cover the Mexican war in what, 2040. On condemned to repeat it or when will we.

[C]

Yes, we'll be able to send the messages directly to people's thoughts. By then, I imagine we won't actually record it. No, you'll think it. Everyone will know what you thought. And then we'll assume that your, you're.

[B]

Have you thought about getting Google glasses? Glasses prescription.

[C]

So here's the thing. So meta, Meta Glasses, I think they've come out with their latest version. I think in the next week or two. I'm thinking about that. I think kind of an augmented reality is what I feel like you should.

[B]

Just go full cyborg at this point.

[C]

No, it's essentially RoboCop.

[B]

Yeah. I expect you to be saying, you know, thank you for your cooperation, good night. That's what I expect. The next time.

[C]

That's exactly right.

[B]

You get on, you're gonna be like, hello, Garrett, we already tried replacing you with an AI bot.

[C]

Did great. Read the emails perfectly in your voice. Yeah, better. My voice, but better. He's a better husband, he's a better.

[B]

Father, he's an all around great guy. He always shows up for AI is a jolly good fellow. So anyway, the, the, the Whigs, their pitch is, look, we don't know who the Democratic candidate's going to be, and the Democratic Party is, it is, it's in turmoil because Polk has been a very divisive president because so many people were opposed to the war. But he was a very effective president. You can, you can say whatever you want about James Polk. He wanted to capture the rest of North America and dude, captured the rest of North America. So I mean, I'm not saying that's right. I'm saying he said, I'm going to capture the rest of North America. And three years later, we got the rest of North America. So I mean, he, I mean, obviously to the sea, obviously Canada was still there, but he, he, he announced that he wasn't going to run for reelection. So the Democratic Party was in utter turmoil because Polk was divisive. He was hated by the Whigs. I mean, just, you couldn't find a Whig that would say one word that wasn't how much they hated James Polk, but he also had totally united the Democratic Party and led this so super successful war. I mean, again, successful is in air quotes. I'm not saying any war is good. I'm saying to the history books, lines changed. You know what I mean? So imagine what kind of turmoil there would have been in the, the best examples. And again, I'm not, I'm, I don't want to talk about your political beliefs. I, I get it. Everyone feels super strongly about them and, and if I don't believe exactly what they believe, then you hate me. But just whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, I want you to think about what chaos would have ensued if after Barack Obama's first term, right near the end of it, he had announced that he wasn't running for reelection. Now look, you'd have had all kinds of Republicans that have been all kinds of overjoyed. Yeah. You know, but what would have happened on the Democratic Party side? How would you have figured out?

[C]

We kind of just, we kind of just experienced that.

[B]

No, we kind of did. We kind of did. But, but, but in that case, it was after the conventions were over.

[C]

Right.

[B]

This is, this is before you've picked anyone. So, yeah, Kamala Harris became the nominee by. Because the party selected her. But think about this. Even after the first Donald Trump term, imagine that at the end of the first Donald Trump term, instead of running for reelection, he announced he was stepping down. Who would have filled that void in the Republican Party? It would have been chaos. Now, again, before the convention. I'm not talking about after the convention. And a quick, you know, a switcheroo, you know, given, given where, you know, these different leaders were people in their cabinet, by the time they were done, you can imagine it threw the whole thing open. Well, that's what had happened. Polk said he wasn't running again. So you had every Democrat from, from, from, I don't know, I mean. Nope. New Orleans to Maine, saying they're going to throw their hat in the ring for the presidency. And so the party's super divided just over this political wrangling of who are we going to nominate for our president. Well, the Whigs are not divided. They are all. It's going to be Zachary Taylor. We're putting Zachary Taylor up. He's a war hero, he's from the Southern states. So he gets this Southern part. Whigs are primarily Northerners. He's a slaveholder, so that keeps the, the Southerners from thinking that he's about to free all the slaves, even though, even though he's a Whig. And so this wig, this Whig politician makes this pitch to the Latter Day Saints. Look, you know, you're, you just moved to a place that's now controlled by the American government. And you know who controls the organization of territories? The President of the United States does. Because the president is the person who appoints the governor of a territory. He's the person who appoints the Supreme Court justices of a territory. He appoints the Indian agent, which is a gigantic big deal in this portion of American history with tons of money and power flowing. He appoints the Indian agent of a territory, and he appoints the secretary of the territory, the person who determines the allocation of funds and censuses and all kinds of stuff like that. In short, territories of the United States. There, there is one place in, in pre Civil War American history. Well, there's two places. There is two places where the federal government wields incredible power. The first is in the mail system. The largest employer of federal employees in the 1840s is the males. And so that's why there's always this desperate desire for office, seeking for people to be postmasters, because there's thousands of jobs that are connected to whoever the new president is. And, and this is still during the time of the spoil system. So it didn't matter how good your postmaster was, if your postmaster was a Democrat and a wig got elected, your postmaster is getting fired. And they're, and, and the guy they hired to replace him, he's not going to be like, oh, it's the assistant postmaster. No, he's going to be like, just Dave. Just Dave. The postmaster who's never once carried a letter, he's never even written a letter. But you know what he is? He's a super powerful Whig politician. And so like, oh yeah, we better give Dave a place. And so the Federal Postal Service is incredibly powerful in that regard because it's a paying job back when the government didn't have other paying jobs. I mean, there's going to be more postmasters than there are men serving in the American army. So to give you an idea, because all these little places have postmasters. And the second place the federal government was incredibly powerful was in the territories because the Constitution gave the right, the power to legislate over the territories to the federal government, not to, to the people living in that territory. So if someone wanted to establish a territorial government, this is what they had to do. They had to petition the federal government. And if their petition was accepted, they would be able to vote for their own legislative body. You would have a territorial legislature. But all of the laws passed by that territorial legislature could be vetoed by the governor, who was appointed by the president. And if in some off chance a law got passed the governor, that was causing problems in the territory. The Supreme Court of the Territory was not made up of residents of the territory. So look, today you have a Utah Supreme Court. The people serving on the Utah Supreme Court aren't from Florida. It's not like. It's not like, well, welcome to the this honorable session of the Utah Supreme Court. We're joined by someone from Massachusetts, someone from Minnesota, someone from California, and someone from Michigan. No, the Utah Supreme Court is made up of Utahns, right, who are appointed to that position. Not so in the territorial days. In the territorial days, all of those were federally appointed positions. So in the off chance that some law got past that governor that was appointed that was contrary to the federal government's wishes, the Supreme Court of the Territory simply nullified any law as, you know, quote, unquote, unconstitutional that the federal government didn't like. I don't know how much of this that this Whig representative told Brigham Young and the other Latter Day Saint leaders there in Iowa, but he didn't have to explain the whole thing to him for them to see the writing on the wall. The reality was Zachary Taylor was incredibly popular and there was no one running against him who was going to be anywhere near as popular as he was. And the person who is in the Presidential chair is going to be the person who makes the decision on how a Utah Territory is formed and who is appointed to run that territory. So the Saints make a pretty pragmatic decision. The pragmatic decision they make is we will cast our lots with the Whig Party. Why? So that we can curry favor with the Whig leadership? So that they can be kind to us? Because, look, Latter Day Saints don't exactly have a great track record with Whigs. It was a Whig politician who stood up on the cannon outside of the polling place in Missouri that incited the riot that caused the Mormon War in Missouri that led to the extermination order. And that man, William Peniston, not only did that disagreeable act, he also had multiple interactions with Alexander McCrae after the fact, who was one of the people in Liberty Jail. And let's just say Alexander McCrae has no kind words to say about this man. He's Alexander McCrae, very angry about this man. So anyway, I know we're out of time and I haven't even gotten close to the question, but I had to set it up. What I had to set up was the Latter Day Saints in the, in the 1848 election made a deliberate decision for their own self interests to vote against what they generally did, which was they voted in block for Democrats to vote for the Whig candidate, Zachary Taylor, as well as all of the other Whig downline candidates, because they were hopeful that by showing that willingness to support Taylor, that Taylor in turn would show support to them as they attempt to create a territory out of this newly conquered wasteland that they, that they were living in. And there's a lot more to this story. I'm out of time. Richard's head's exploding. He's pointing at his watch. I believe he's pointing also at his glasses, or that's just what he does normally. So I. Hopefully this isn't too boring for you. I know this is boring. I get it that it's boring. Unless you're a Latter Day Saint living in Iowa or someone who only cares about Whig politics in the 1840s, this is boring. But I am going to get to somewhere and it's really important in understanding Latter Day Saint history. It's important to understand the context in which these events occur, because the Latter Day saints in the 1840s and 1850s and the 1860s, they feel like they are always on the precipice of being exterminated because multiple people have tried to exterminate them. And it's very simple for us sitting in our nice high back chairs to, to say, well, they probably should have been more focused on this. Yeah, it's super easy to tell people in the past what they should have been focused on. When you aren't the one who's being threatened with extermination, when you're the one being threatened with it, your priorities are a little bit different. You're not quite as concerned with other issues that other Americans might be concerned with because you are in a desperate mode trying to survive. So we'll talk more about this, hopefully only next episode. But Richard, I gotta tell you, I have some new sources on this and like, never before used sources that, oh, I really shouldn't even share on the podcast because someone will just steal them and pretend that it's theirs, which, which totally happens. But anyway, I think, I think you'll, you'll like to hear the exciting conclusion of probably not a conclusion. Probably part two of what? President is dead. We call it dead in Hell. That's. We'll call this.

[C]

Yeah, dead in Hell. I think it's perfect.

[B]

Which is also a way to describe people listening to the podcast. When they get to, like, the 20th minute, they're like, you know what? Like, I'm dead in hell. The Catholic purgatory has got nothing on this. At the very least, we'd at least like to think of ourselves as a purgatory, not hell. So thank you so much for joining us.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.