S5E9 Missionary Madness and Brigham Young’s Leadership

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast Episode Summary

Title: Missionary Madness and Brigham Young’s Leadership
Episode: S5E9
Release Date: February 27, 2025
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc
Description: This episode delves into the experiences of missionaries within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, interwoven with a deep exploration of Brigham Young’s leadership and historical doctrinal debates.

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1. Introduction and Mailbag Segment

The episode opens with a light-hearted exchange between Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc, humorously discussing the influx of emails they receive from listeners, particularly missionaries. At [00:46], Dr. Leduc jokes about their email backlog, leading to a playful banter about responding in different languages and the challenges of managing such volume without a dedicated team.

Dr. Richard Leduc [01:12]: "I responded in Chinese to one of them."

The hosts emphasize the strong connection they have with over a thousand missionaries who listen to their podcast, highlighting the missionaries' humor and inspirational testimonies.

2. Missionary Engagement and Google Drive Accessibility

A significant portion of the episode focuses on enhancing access for missionaries. Dr. Dirkmaat discusses how missionaries, unable to use standard podcast apps, can access their content via Google Drive. This initiative, spearheaded by a mission president in Tucson, Arizona, has resulted in over 150 missionaries accessing and listening to the podcast.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [05:03]: "Instead of a, at least this is what I sold to my family, is that instead of a Passover Seder, which we do, it's not always Easter and Passover lineup, but we're going to do a resurrection Seder."

This segment underscores the hosts' commitment to supporting missionaries by providing easily accessible resources.

3. Highlighting Listener Emails: Guadalupe Tariffs' Testimony

One of the standout moments is the detailed email from a listener named Guadalupe Tariffs. At [15:22], Dr. Leduc reads Guadalupe’s introspective testimony, where he grapples with personal doubts and the significance of prophetic leadership within the church. Guadalupe emphasizes the necessity of aligning personal beliefs with the current prophet’s teachings, reflecting on historical figures like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Guadalupe Tariffs [14:43]: "If we don't have a current prophet of the church legitimately, none of this matters because this isn't a philosophy. This isn't like, you know, you're Six Sigma."

4. In-Depth Discussion on Faith, Prophecy, and Church Leadership

Responding to Guadalupe’s email, Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc engage in a profound discussion about the nature of prophetic leadership and doctrinal authority within the church. They analyze historical conflicts, particularly focusing on Brigham Young’s interactions with apostles like Orson Pratt. Using quotes from historical journals, Dr. Dirkmaat illustrates how Brigham Young maintained doctrinal integrity while fostering open dialogue among church leaders.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [34:57]: "He is certainly a flawed man. He makes all kinds of mistakes. It is impossible that the church exists the way it does today without Brigham Young's leadership."

The hosts argue that the strength and survival of the church are largely attributed to Brigham Young's leadership, despite his personal flaws. They contrast this with the often harsh perceptions of his leadership style, emphasizing the internal support and loyalty among church apostles.

5. Balancing Serious Discussions with Light-Hearted Banter

Throughout the episode, the hosts intersperse serious theological discussions with their trademark humor. They joke about their own podcasting capabilities, the possibility of listeners starting their own podcasts, and share personal anecdotes about camping and travel preferences.

Dr. Richard Leduc [63:19]: "When you take the diet Dr. Pepper in an actual glass, it's just something special."

This blend of humor with scholarly discussion makes complex topics more accessible and engaging for listeners.

6. Closing Remarks and Future Plans

As the episode concludes, Dr. Dirkmaat expresses heartfelt gratitude towards their listeners, especially those facing personal struggles and missionaries serving abroad. They hint at future episodes that will delve deeper into the dynamics of church leadership and doctrinal debates.

Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [70:12]: "I just want to say to everyone for listening and thank you for your faith. Thank you for those of you who are struggling but still coming back to try to make the gospel work."

The hosts also discuss upcoming trips and personal plans, maintaining their rapport with listeners and reinforcing the community feel of the podcast.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Dr. Richard Leduc [15:22]: "I can honestly say that I know Joseph Smith to be a true prophet of the Restoration."
• Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat [34:57]: "He is certainly a flawed man. He makes all kinds of mistakes. It is impossible that the church exists the way it does today without Brigham Young's leadership."
• Guadalupe Tariffs [14:43]: "If we don't have a current prophet of the church legitimately, none of this matters because this isn't a philosophy."

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Key Discussions and Insights

• Missionary Support: The hosts prioritize making their content accessible to missionaries, acknowledging the unique challenges missionaries face in consuming media.
• Prophetic Authority: A central theme is the unbroken line of prophetic authority, from Joseph Smith to Brigham Young, and now to President Nelson. The discussion reinforces the belief that doctrinal teachings must align with the current prophet to maintain doctrinal integrity and personal faith.
• Historical Leadership Conflicts: By referencing historical disputes within the church, particularly Brigham Young’s dealings with Orson Pratt, the hosts illustrate how prophetic leadership handles dissent and maintains doctrinal cohesion.
• Faith Amid Doubt: Through Guadalupe’s email, the podcast addresses the internal struggles believers may face when reconciling personal doubts with institutional teachings, emphasizing the importance of seeking understanding and alignment with prophetic guidance.
• Community and Humor: Maintaining a balance between serious theological discourse and light-hearted conversations fosters a relatable and supportive community for listeners.

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Conclusions

In this episode of "Standard of Truth," Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc effectively blend listener engagement, historical analysis, and contemporary faith discussions to provide a comprehensive exploration of missionary experiences and the enduring impact of Brigham Young’s leadership. The episode not only addresses doctrinal questions but also reinforces the supportive and humorous bond between the hosts and their listeners, making complex historical and theological topics accessible and meaningful.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Foreign Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. We haven't done kind of an email, a Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag episode in some time and we have 400 million emails that we'll be getting to today.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've had many, many, many, many people email us. We read all of them. We respond to none of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I responded in Chinese to one of them.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we had a sister email in a sister missionary and Richard responded to her in Chinese. I did, because he's been studying it. I don't know what his Duolingo score is, but it's got to be off the charts. It's got to be just straight off the charts.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. My streak is three days in a row. I think that's a record. She. I essentially, I responded to her in Mandarin, which is my. Actually, it's my native language and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You mean Mandarin oranges.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's right. Well, so I said essentially, if you had asked this question in Chinese, we actually would have responded to your question about polygamy, but you didn't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So unfortunately, you got to know how to get through. You got to know how to get through the sensors. So just so everyone's where we do read all your emails because we don't have a secretary or clearly a producer or clearly an editor or any talent at all. We can't respond to them really. But thank you so much for sending them. Except for the ones where the people tell us how much they hate us and then I guess, thanks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Those are my favorite, actually.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The ones that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Especially not the ones that say they hate me. The ones that say, hey, Garrett, those are my favorite.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Those are your favorite. Why are they all labeled Richard? You know, from Richard Leduc, from Becky leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Max leduc. This is crazy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, Max, yeah. Yeah, that's funny. Our 15 year old's like, garrett, I hate you. He cuts out, you know, letters out of magazines and mails you. Ransom letters. Well, so, Garrett, we've. I will say one of the things we, we have well over a thousand Missionaries now that are listening to the podcast. And the missionaries are the most fun part of this whole thing. They're hilarious, and their testimonies are wonderful and their stories are incredible. And anyway, it's turned into, like, my favorite thing that we have. And we do have a couple of updates as it relates to missionaries if we can get in. Jumping straight into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. This email comes to us from Nate, another Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, missionary. We can't even do the search in email anymore because it's. Every email is something.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Every email references Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. We need to start handing out terrible towels.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The only true mission. I know you're probably thinking the subject line can't possibly be true, but it turns out my daughter was actually called to the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission and begins home MTC on March 3rd. So next week, I can only assume that if I didn't request access to the Google Drive for her, she would be the only one in the mission with that. It's true, actually, Nate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She would be the only one. There's a lot of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania missionaries.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm writing from the southeast side of Tucson, where we're on lookout for Elder.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Dirk Moss, but Hassan is serving in the Tucson mission and actually just got transferred to South Tucson.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, there. There you go, Nate.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah. You're about to cross paths, but as.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Of yet, been unsuccessful in locating him. The chances of us crossing paths is diminished by the fact that we have only had sister missionaries in our ward for quite a while, but we remain vigilant. In all seriousness, thank you for the wonderful podcast. I really enjoy it, and the knowledge, insights, humor, and spirit you bring, it has certainly strengthened me. Here's my missionary daughter's email, Nate. And so this. This. This allows actually for us to talk about something that was kind of unique. Was it. I don't. Was it a Thursday or. It was a Friday. I don't remember what day it was. It was. It was a dark day. It was. It was the busiest day in podcast history.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Well, of this podcast, anyway.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think of all podcasts in all history.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sure. That there are podcasts that people listen to that are following him.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. Yeah, like. So, like, an average Tuesday is busier.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm pretty sure two years after they've retired from doing Follow him, it'll still be busier for them than it is for us on our busiest day. That's what I assume.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I agree with you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Well, so my son serving in the Tucson mission, his mission president happens to be a listener, and his mission president thought It'd be a great idea for the missionaries in his mission to get access to the, to the Google Drive so that they can all. When people are wondering what we're talking about. Look, missionaries don't have the ability to have apps on their phone, so they can't listen on Spotify or on, on, you know, on Apple Pod. Well, they don't have Apple phones, but if they did, they still can't listen on, on Apple podcasts. And so, but they are allowed, if their mission president allows, they are allowed to access Google documents or Google forms and that's how most of them do their pictures anyway. And so we have the, we, we've made it so the podcast is accessible and then we also have premium content that, that is designed for people who want to help support the podcast. So they can. But we just give it away to missionaries. We just, they have their mission in their missionary email. We add it to the drive, they have access and they listen to it. Well, anyway, this president, I'll leave him anonymous since he probably doesn't want anyone to know. Not that people can't look it up.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But it's church news, just check it out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, don't look, don't look. He emailed all of his missionaries and let them know, hey, this is available to you if you want to listen. So we received upwards of, I believe it was 110 emails. How many emails?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There are over 120 Arizona, Tucson missionaries that have access to the, that emailed us, asking, requesting access.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

First of all, we learned first of all that President, you have an obedient mission. You sent out an email within hours of your email being sent. We received probably 70 emails.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh yeah, within an hour.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was crushing. Now there were others who were stragglers and I think you know who they are.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We got one today from Tucson and I, I gave it to him, but I wasn't happy about it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, you were like, where were you? You know, could you not watch with me one hour? But we now have essentially hundreds of missionaries in Arizona, be 150 at least in Arizona listening. And I have to say, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission, I believe you've been dethroned.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And if you want to keep it up, you're going to have to keep it rolling because, yeah, this is an.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

American Pie, you know, bye bye, Miss American Pie. Like, you know that essentially Buddy Holly crashed and someone stole the crown. And that person is Tucson, Arizona.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, I mean, I mean Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission. We hardly knew the, I mean now, now there's still a Lot. But this made us think, you know, with March Madness coming up and, you know, we. We will have full betting lines out on that when the time comes. Now, we always do that by telling you who's going to win two or three weeks after the they win.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And still getting it wrong, by the way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's the best part. We drop it after, you know. You know who I think is going to go all the way? Virginia. That year that they lost. They lost the first round. Anyway, we're gonna do a contest for the month of March. We're gonna. The contest which mission will have the most missionaries request access now. I don't know what we would give that. The winning. We'll give them a shout out for sure.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's lots of things. One of the things that I'm. I'm the best at is giving away Garrett's time. It's one of the biggest talents. And so look, if a mission president gets on board with that, you've done zoom, firesides, perhaps.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In fact, I just got contacted by the Barcelona Mission to.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah, Is that right? President Heckman. He's a great guy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yep.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so, yeah, so we can. And maybe the missionaries can come up with creative stuff, but so try and get as many missionaries to come in and to listen and let us know which. What your real mission is, and we'll have kind of a fun contest that will track through the month of March.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now we have to say real mission because of these next two mission missionaries that emailed us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Anyway, so this. This. This comes from Elder Whitehead. Message. I have listened to your podcast with my dad before my mission and really need access to the podcast again, please. Psycho. I am a missionary in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission, temporarily serving in the Bridgetown Barbados mission for 24 months, and am an identical twin. The next very next email we received. Elder Whitehead, hi. I have listened to your podcast with my dad before my mission and really need access to the podcast again, please. P.S. i'm a missionary in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania mission, temporarily serving in the Santos, Brazil mission for 24 months and an identical twin.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is hilarious. So now we have missionaries claiming that they've been temporarily reassigned for the entire time of their mission from the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission to the actual mission that they're in.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, that. I mean, that happened during COVID all the time. Right. So why wouldn't that be the case? Anyway, the missionaries are. You guys are just so wonderful. We are so grateful for your service. The interaction with you and the email is a lot of fun. We love you, we love how much you love and are serving the Lord and hope that it helps you, as Garrett and I talk about as the Truman Madsen tapes helped us when we were on our mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Honestly, it's one of the things that keeps the podcast going is the fact that we feel like we're trying to help out these. These young men and women who've dedicated their life, these two years, year and a half, to grow the kingdom of God. And that matters a lot to us. So we want to pay it back. And it's. It's the worst kind of payment. Sure. I mean, like, it's the kind of present that you get from that one aunt who, you know is going to give you a book. But on a topic that you don't care about, like, here's a, you know. Oh, an introductory guide to Basket Weave. Oh, Aunt. Aunt Jane.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's the Christmas story. But Bunny Pajamas is essentially what podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. You'll shoot your eye out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But also, by the way, I do need to say a super thank you to all of those that do actually subscribe to the premium. We sincerely appreciate it. It has exceeded our expectations. And. And we are very, very grateful for that. Thank you very much.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thank you so much.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, so this. The name of this person is Guadalupe Tariffs, which. Who knew that tariffs would make their way into the news as much.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He had us. He had us at hello.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He did Garrett's favorite Guadalupe Mine favorite tariffs. Not that I love tariffs. I love talking about tariffs. Specifically Japanese tariffs.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You just got very political. Very political. And I'm not okay with it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, look, I was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look at all the subscriptions are canceling right now. I just.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I. I just. I taught citizenship in the world using Japanese rice tariffs to teach all the principles of. When I was. When I was a merit badge counselor for two merit badges.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why they canceled Boy Scouts.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I. I was using your communist rhetoric into these boys.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was a. I was a priest quorum advisor for seven years, and by the time they came to me, it was go time on getting your eagle or not. So I just took over 32 merit badges. I was a counselor for 32 merit badges. So I could completely can control the situation. And we've got a lot of people through, so for whatever that's worth, I.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Can only assume you were the cooking merit badge. You were.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was every required merit badge, Gary.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Very good. You had a very pliable bishop.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I did. This is some heavy stuff, Docs. Forgive me for the informal way of mentioning both of your titles, but I felt for. I felt that for Theo or for theoretical. You know what? You know what? When you graduate from university, I guess it is theoretical. Go pokes. I can't read theoretical. I'm gonna. I'm gonna cut this out, Garrett. I'm gonna mark it. I'm cutting it out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's theatrical. Theatrical effect that works well. First things first. While I did not go on a mission, I feel that if I had, I would have been called to the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania Mission.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No doubt.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I'm there now in spirit. So I was wondering if that might qualify myself for the Google Drive with all the premium stuff. No, I understand. All kidding aside, I want to thank you for all of this. Podcast brings me Sometimes it's the only content, including church, that I get in the week, and it has kept me grounded in your episode regarding the rebuke and apostasy of Alman Babbitt. Now, that's in the. In the classic series that we just began, Great Rebukes of the Doctrine and.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Covenants, the series we started and did nothing with. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, I'm excited.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Although I do think it's part of Apostates, Apostles and Apothecaries.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a sub genre of that, for sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You mentioned like it when we do apostates, by the way, it's like our people love it. They want us to do all apostasy all the time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And fortunately, the church is full of it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. You will never run out. You always have. You could. I mean, eventually you'll be down to like, you know, Bill the adulterer, but other than that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, he's still. I mean, he's trying to come back. He still keeps trying.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, yeah, I guess.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Alan Babbitt, you mentioned, as you have before in other episodes, how there are people that may claim to be stalwart followers in the church, but in the next breath, criticized President Nelson for some reason. Hearing it again this time made me realize that I am one of those people. I haven't posted anything on social media or been outspoken at all with my criticism, but in my heart, I have harbored those feelings. I have stayed away from reading anything on Reddit or X because I know that if I am seeking faith, I actually have to go and find the sources that promote it, not tear it down. As President Holland has so passionately said before, I need to hold on to the faith as I have. I can honestly say that I know Joseph Smith to be a true prophet of the Restoration. I can say that I would defend his name always. But I recently realized that I can say and do that now because of all that we have learned. That all started with the teachings of Joseph Smith since his day. But if I had lived during his day when so much of what he taught was new and radical, would I have been stalwart? What a. What a self awareness there. I don't know. But if I question my prophet today because of things I don't know, I shudder to think about it. I know now that instead of just sitting on my questions, I need to take action and learn for myself through the spirit incredible sources that President Nelson is a true prophet of God. Anyways, I say all of that to say that this podcast is a saving grace for myself and my kids. Thank you for all the work you two do to put this heartfelt testimonies to get us through it because it has inspired me to action and I thank you both for it. Sincerely. A proud softie.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Softie. A standard of truth. A fan. Is that what that is? What? Fan of the show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Yes. Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well. Guadalupe Tariffs Anonymous this is actually one of the best emails I think we've ever received. I mean we've received a lot of great ones. But on this topic in particular, because I talk about following the prophet all of the time and yet I am well aware that the natural impulse of almost everyone listening is to simply say, oh yeah, it's really bad when those other people do that and then they go on thinking what they want to think. And the fact that you care about the gospel so much that you are willing to allow the Spirit to work on you to say, you know what, it's not good enough that I harbor personal criticisms or unsurities about President Nelson. I mean a great, a great thing to always go back to when you're thinking about it, like you'd said in your email is if we don't have a current prophet of the church legitimately, none of this matters because this isn't a philosophy. This isn't like, you know, you're Six Sigma. This is not, this is not a. Richard, you think?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, well, no, first of all, I love operational improvement and I'm a big Six Sigma fan. So I'm not gonna sit here, I'm not gonna say.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You should have seen the video of this. Richard's eyes, they grew wide. That, you know, it was, you know, how the Grinch's heart grew three times that day. Richard's eyes grew three times.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's a couple things. Six Sigma, Toyota Kata. There's a couple things that I get Pretty worked up about Kaizen. Like, there's a couple things I'm gonna get excited about. Sorry, I apologize. You were bearing your testimony. I apologize to cut you off.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The point being that for other Christian religions, primarily Protestant Christian groups, there is no structure and there is no church except for the people that are believers. And part of the reason why that is the case is because you don't actually have to, in Protestantism, have any ordinances at all. You don't need any ordinances because the only thing you need is faith. And people who have faith will go to heaven and people who don't have faith will go to hell. And there is no equivocation about it. And of course we go and we get baptized because that's what Jesus told us to do. But that baptism is not salvific is the phrase. It's not saving at all. You can be thief on the cross and just in the last moment say, you know, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom and you're saved. And so for many other Christians, what we believe is what matters most, Right? So there's a reason why in Christianity, people care a great deal about doctrine and, and having the right beliefs. I mean, the whole idea of heresy comes from the idea of having the. The wrong belief is what it means. Like, oh, you're believing the wrong things. Well, obviously you'd think that if you were. If you were believing the wrong things, you just stop believing them if they're wrong. And so for Christians, that's the reason why they fight over every single point of doctrine as it's related in the Bible, because the only thing that matters is belief. And it's the reason why, incidentally, that you can have a conversation with a Christian pastor or anyone on X who will say something to the effect of all you have to believe in Jesus is to be saved. And when you say, well, I very much believe in Jesus, their response is, yeah, but you believe in the Mormon Jesus, so that's not true. Like, wait a minute, you just said I had to believe in Jesus. Yeah, but you have to believe in Jesus the right way, right? So even in that sense, it's. You have to believe in the right thing, but it's always about what you believe. It's not about what you do. Doing has no bearing on your salvation or exaltation, which they don't believe in. But we aren't Protestants. We aren't Protestants. Even though the world around us would try to try to make us believe that we are. We don't believe that what exalts us is solely what we believe. We don't believe that exaltation is one giant participation trophy, that as long as you showed up even 45 minutes late and didn't. Didn't even, you know, get your cake entered in the drawing in time that you get the same as everyone else. We believe that belief is coupled with. With actions that are coupled with ordinances. Now you might say, why did you spend any time on that? Because Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and John Taylor Wilford Woodruff, and you can sing the primary song to yourself all the way down the roll. Those men held the keys of the ordinances that are exalting. Nobody is becoming like God without being endowed and being sealed. Well, who holds those keys? Only the prophet of God, the President of the Church, in conjunction with the Quorum of the twelve Apostles. And so one way to deal with your doubt and difficulties as they creep in when President Nelson takes a position on something that you really feel strongly about, another way, or whatever it is, is to remember that without President Nelson holding the keys, none of this matters. If we don't have a prophet that holds the keys of sealing, then it doesn't matter whether or not you've gone through the motions. This is something that Brigham Young learned or defended very, very early on. And I know I've referenced this before, but I'm going to reference it again. I'll quote from the one in the Journal of Discourses because it's easier for people to find, even though we all know you can go back and listen to the podcast in the Journal of Discourses that there's maybe a few problems there with having it exact. But in this case, we. We know that Brigham talks about this multiple times, and that is in Nauvoo, there was a conflict in which there were several leading brethren that had decided that Joseph was wrong on parts of doctrine. And the way that they decided that they were going to prove it to him is they all held a big meeting and they were going to. To the prophet's face. Joseph's there in this meeting. They started going through all the Scriptures, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, the Bible, and using the Scriptures to refute the radical teachings that Joseph Smith was teaching in 1840, 1843 is when this took place. This is from October 7, 1864 conference. Brigham Young, he said, the brethren who spoke and have been disposed to speak concerning the testimony they have within themselves of the truth of this work. It made me think of a circumstance in history of Joseph Smith, in which I was an actor relating to a few men in Nauvoo who sought to make it appear that the printed word was all in all and immensely superior to the living testimony of the Holy Ghost in the believer and to the power of the living priesthood. I attended one of their meetings which was held in Joseph's house, and arose to speak and took from my text, ye Saints of Latter Day Saints. No, Ye Saints of the Latter Day. Sorry, I would not give you the ashes of a rye straw for every word that is contained in the Bible, Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, so far as their efficacy is concerned, to save any man independent of the living priesthood of the Son of God and the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the heart of the believer. Like I said, he tells the story multiple times, that if you find yourself quoting scripture to denigrate the prophet, well, then I. Then you don't. You don't actually understand the restoration. The restoration is God bringing back the keys, the power of saving and exalting ordinances that are vested in people. That's why when you have all these apostate groups spring up and they're like, oh, yeah, well, I mean, the church was true right up until this time, but luckily I'm the new person who's true. Well, that's not how God set it up. He didn't set it up so that, you know, someone, you know, could just one day decide that they've had a vision and that they now have power and authority. And there's a reason why all of these apostate groups immediately turn their faces away from. From the temple. Every one of them, every one of these apostate groups will spend time trying to tell their parishioners, their newfound apostate fellows that have joined their movement, that the temple's not nearly as important as people say it is. That you can't do work for the dead, for everyone, only for, like, people that you literally met yourself in your own life, that. That temple covenants and temple ordinances are not essential. Why do they do that? They do that because they know in order to have a movement, they have to convince the Saints of the Latter days that the exalting ordinances that you get in the temple are not essential. They have to get you to go back to the Protestant way of thinking that there is no ultimate authority outside of Scripture itself. And so, you know, like I said, that's one of the best emails we've ever received because it is so thoughtful and introspective. Would that all of us could stop and say, lord, is it I. I mean, we're all sinners. We've all got things we've got to fix. And for this brother to believe so passionately about something, but to allow the Holy Spirit to touch his heart and say, you know what? I don't care how much I believe about X, if it's not what President Nelson's teaching, it's time for me to stop believing that way. And that is one of the hardest things anyone will ever do. I hear people all the time saying, oh, well, yeah, I'm a stalwart believer, but here's where President Nelson's wrong. You're not as stalwart as you think you are. Because being a stalwart believer means believing in the living oracles that there is a president of the high priesthood, which is what the president of the church is. President Nelson is not president of the corporation. He's not, oh, look, he's CEO Nelson. And here comes CFO the bishop. I mean, that's not how that works. They are called president because they are president of the high priesthood, meaning literally, they have all of the keys that God has given on earth, including those keys by which our families are sealed, by which our dead are redeemed, and by which we make the covenants whereby we can progress to become like our heavenly Father. So we. We might always have doubts and questions. We might always say, I don't know why the church did X or why the church did Y, but if. If we can do like this, brother, and say, not knowing isn't the same thing as going on X and saying how wrong the prophet is. Not knowing is not the same thing as saying, actually, I do know. Not knowing is saying, you know what? Like. Like saints who have always lived throughout this, throughout eternities. I'm going to take my step across that river from Iowa and into Nebraska, and I have literally no idea where we're going. And it doesn't make any sense why we're going there. And I don't know why God would command this. And it goes against everything insane. It goes against everything that my family says and my work says. In my economic situation, going out west, going to Utah goes against every rational thing. And I'm going because a prophet said so. And I say it over and over and over and over again. It's the anthem to our podcast, but it always goes back to Lehi and Jerusalem, the beginning of the Book of Mormon. You don't need a prophet to tell you to stay in Jerusalem. Laman And Lemuel, those guys were staying in Jerusalem regardless. There was no, there was no going outside the city walls and certainly no going to Laban to ask for plates. If you're Laman and Lemuel, the only thing that got them out of Jerusalem was, was a prophet. The entire point of having a prophet is for them to teach you things that you don't already believe. And that's when our discipleship is really tested. And I love how you compared the fact that, well, if I lived in Joseph's time, I want to believe. I believe it's exactly what the Lord said, you know, when he was speaking. You know, you, you, you hypocrites, you build up the monuments of the prophets and it's your forefathers that killed them. You want to talk about how great Jeremiah was, well, guess what happened to him. It wasn't Babylonians who killed him. You want to talk about how great Isaiah is? It wasn't, it wasn't Assyrians who killed Isaiah. The really difficult aspect of discipleship is believing in the current oracle because the past oracles have a way of being proven right. So when you look back on them, it's like, wow, Joseph was totally right. There was a civil war that started in South Carolina and you don't know yet that the current oracle is going to be looked back on and seen as right. Think about the proclamation of the family. Think about how non radical milquetoast that seemed when that was given. Now what does it look like? I mean, how much did it anticipate the questions of our times long before people even had questions of that nature. So awesome email. One of the most important things I hope anyone gets out of this podcast is it is great to believe the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, but if they do not cause you to make and keep covenants today, unfortunately it is the greatest of all tragedies because you know that there's a restoration because Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. But the only way there's a restoration is if you truly believe it's ongoing, that it's going on now and will be going on until the Savior Jesus Christ sets his foot back down in glory on this earth and comes to take the the helm again of the ship.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Great, great email, Great response, Garrett. This, this last email comes to us from Charlene. Love your podcast. I usually try to be sarcastically witty, but I know you have many genuinely funny people writing in, so I won't even try. I do have a couple of miscellaneous questions.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Have a lot of hilarious people riding Let me just say, I mean, just the. The level of wit so exceeds ours. Everyone else needs a podcast. We. Early on in the podcast, we used to tell people, go get your own podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Now we don't want to do. We don't say that anymore because there's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Way better read what these missionaries have to say. And my great fear is they're going to come home, start their own podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is actually our largest fear. So this is kind of a Charlene Potpourri. I guess if we were playing Jeopardy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It relates to our last email. So I think that's why we're covering both.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It does. I remember reading somewhere that the apostles who served with Brigham Young were afraid of voicing their true feelings or opinions about matters because of how he treated naysayers. I don't read anti Mormon literature or website, so maybe it was in one of the Saints volumes. Do you know if this is true? With the way our current prophets and apostles counsel together and disagree until they come to a harmonious conclusion, it was discouraging to hear that it has not always been this way. I know this is my presentism showing through, but I'm curious about your opinion on this, Garrett. That's the first question.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, and we'll just talk about that briefly. Now, first of all, the only reason why you have any idea what the discussions were like in the quorum of the 12 in the 1850s is because we have historical records of the minutes of some of those meetings where we get to see the apostles voice their different concerns and beliefs. And so I would say I believe that when the current Quorum of the twelve and the First Presidency, when they meet together, that they all voice what they actually believe. It's something that was taught by Joseph Smith in the earliest of councils. Look, the entire point of being here is to say what you actually think. And I would guess that people who have been in ward councils and in bishoprics and Relief Society presidencies, where people in those presidencies felt comfortable enough to where they could actually say what they thought, that it ended up being a much more productive meeting and a much more productive presidency. It doesn't really help if we're all just trying to say, okay, what does he think? Okay, now I'm going to say exactly that. But having studied Brigham Young, I. I don't know where the assertion comes from. I feel like it's almost the opposite. Brigham Young was not movable when it came to things like doctrine. So when apostles started teaching what he believed to be false doctrine, yeah, he was Absolutely immovable on that. I mean, so you have an example of this is Orson Pratt. Now, Orson Pratt, one of the most brilliant apostles we've ever had, an amazing man, dedicated his life to the gospel, but he was a big time intellectual. And there were times that he would kind of get out on a limb on experiential doctrine, on experimental doctrine, and he would have to be reigned back in. And one of those times in particular was very. It was very difficult. Let me just say it was in 1860. Orson Pratt had started teaching that we don't worship God. We worship the attributes that God has, right? So we worship God because God has the attribute of goodness. God has the attribute of knowledge. God has the so. So now, that might seem like a small thing to you, but he did it enough that eventually Brigham Young said, hey, don't teach that anymore. And Orson Pratt continued to teach it. And so Brigham Young, you know, called a council and said, hey, we need to get this hashed out. Now, when you read from Wilford Woodruff's journal, or you read from the other minutes that we have of what went on in those conversations, it certainly does not come across that no one feels like they can say what they really think. And that Brigham Young is just saying, like, if you say one word against me, I'm coming for you. And actually, it seems like it's the opposite, because Orson Pratt, he is a lot of things, but one thing he is certainly is incredibly stubborn. Once he's marked out a position for himself, he won't change it any other way. And so in those discussions, you can tell that it's actually the other apostles who are starting to suggest, hey, if Orson Pratt can't accept this, then maybe he. Maybe he can't be a member of the quorum of the 12. And it's actually Brigham that keeps saying, well, no, I want to labor with him more in order to get his mind right. But it is other apostles who are like, you know what? I'm done. He's saying that he's not going to listen to the prophet. Well, that's it. And, you know, we all know what happened with other apostles who said they wouldn't listen. So let's read a little bit of this from Wilford Woodruff's journal where this discussion is going on. And like I said, it's a list of all the apostles making different arguments, things like that. I mean, here's Wilford Woodruff saying to Orson Pratt, I wanted to ask you one or two questions. You see that the spirit and doctrine that you possess is entirely in opposition to the First Presidency and the quorum of the 12 who are present this evening. And it chills the blood in our veins to hear your words and to feel your spirit. Should not this be an evidence to you that you are wrong? What would become of the quorum of the 12 if we all felt as you should do? Well, we should all go to hell in a pile together. You say that you're honest in the course that you're pursuing. I wish to ask you if you was honest when you said that if you had known that President Young worshiped a God without life or attributes, that you would not have written what you did. So in this argument, in this discussion, Orson Pratt, you know, because Brigham Young was like, look, we don't worship the attributes of God. That's not what we do. Orson Pratt apparently flippantly said, well, if I'd have known that President Young worshiped a God that didn't have any attributes, I wouldn't have said that. I mean, I don't know what your bishopric meetings are like. I can only assume that's how you talk to your bishop Richard.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm slightly less lippy, but more sarcastic. Oh, way more sarcastic. But I love him. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yeah, well, so, you know, Wilford Woodruff goes on. It was an insult to President Young and to the holy priesthood which he holds. Every man in this room as a particle of the spirit of God, knows that President Young is a prophet of God and that God sustains him, and that he has the Holy Spirit and that his doctrines are true and that he is qualified to lead the people. And he's explained everything very plain this evening. That a child can understand it, and yet it is not. It is no evidence to you. Nothing can make an impression upon you. No argument can reach your understanding. But, Brother Orson, I have seen the day when you was in sorrow. It was when you were cast out of your quorum and out of the church, and that, too, in consequence of perusing, pursuing the same course that you are this evening, then you could both see and feel and understand. Then argument could reach you. When you saw your glory and your crown departing from you, I beg of you to reflect and not let your will carry you too far in these things. It would be better for us to not be able to cast up a simple sum in addition, and be humble. You know, basically, it'd be better if you didn't know math at all and be humble to the Lord rather than to have ever so much knowledge and. And permit that Knowledge to lead us to destruction. So, I mean, he's counseling with him. And of course, what he's talking about is that orson Pratt in 1842 is caught up in the John C. Bennett imbroglio, which we'll talk about someday, but probably never on the podcast. And, you know, he's in a very difficult position where his wife has kind of followed after John C. Bennett, and he has to choose between his wife and the church. And for a time, he apostatizes. And so what Wilford Woodruff is saying, hey, you remember that you did leave the quorum once before, and do you remember how bad it was? I mean, take a stop and look. Wilford says, I feel at this advanced state of the church and in the late day, with the information you possess, that neither you nor your brethren ought to be troubled with false doctrine. Neither should you cause your brethren to listen to such a scene of things as we have heard tonight, or to insult the president of the church as you have done. Although you are unbending in your will tonight, the day is not far distant when you will be glad to bend to the president of the church and make reconciliation. And really, it kind of just goes through the line. It's primarily other apostles saying, hey, you need to believe. One very interesting comment was given by several people that are there. But probably the most interesting is when President Young does talk. It's a really cool example of having the ability to receive revelation and knowing whether or not you have the ability to teach it. President Young said, I will tell you how I got along with Joseph. I found out that God called Joseph to be a prophet. I did not do it. God did it. I then said, I will leave the prophet in the hands of that God who called and ordained him to be a prophet. He is not responsible to me. It's none of my business what he does. It is for me to follow and obey him. I was once ashamed of one thing, which I did while I was in Missouri, in Zion's camp. So now he's looking back all the way to, you know, to the Zion's camp. In 1834, I got a revelation. Now, this is before. He's an apostle. Brigham Young's not an apostle. In 1834. There are no apostles in 1834. 1835, February is when Brigham Young's called to be an apostle. When the apostleship's created. I got a revelation that God had accepted our offering. I had the same thing revealed to me twice, and that we should not go into Jackson County. So they're on their way down there, and they're getting close to Jackson county with this group that may actually end up violently conflicting with the Missourians to get the Saints their land back in Jackson county because they've just been driven off by guns. And Brigham receives a revelation that, you know what? We're not actually going to go all the way to Jackson County. God just wanted us to make the march, but he didn't want us to actually fight. I named this to some of the brethren a day or two before Joseph got a revelation on the same subject. And I felt ashamed that I had named it first. I knew where we were going. And I now know that when we went to go to Jackson county, we shall go from the west. And I will now tell you all, and you may write it down, that in all my preaching by the Holy Ghost, it is revelation. I told Brother Joseph that he had given us revelation enough to last us 20 years. When the time is out, I can give us good revelation as there is in the Doctrine and Covenants. So look, they went on and kept going. But here, Brigham Young's teaching, that principle, even if you did have something that God gave you, it's not your purview to teach it before the prophet. God has set it up that way. And so while all these others, the other people in this conversation, are basically telling Orson, hey, man, you need to get in line or you're going to get kicked out. We're not going to deal with you acting like this. Brigham is taking a much softer stance. His stance is, hey, even if this is something that you feel like you receive, until I receive it, you can't teach it publicly. Which to me, kind of puts to lie the argument that, oh, if only you know, Brigham listened a lot more. I just. I feel like Brigham Young is the prophet. We don't know. We know him in sound bites and TikToks. We know him in Instagram memes and in Facebook reels, and we don't know anything about him. Our detractors dredge up whatever filth they think they can find, take it out of context and throw it on him and say, see? See? He can't really be a prophet. I studied Brigham Young for decades now. I. We just published his journals last year with. With Brigham Young University Press. He is certainly a flawed man. He makes all kinds of mistakes. It is impossible that the church exists the way it does today without Brigham Young. And I'm not saying that as a Latter Day Saint. I am saying that as a scholar, as someone who's been well published on Brigham Young. It is impossible to believe that our church exists and is successful without Brigham Young's leadership. And if you don't believe that, very, very easy to take a look at all of the other offshoot churches that arose at the exact same time. How did they do? How are they doing? It is something that the saints very much undervalue, and that is the very beliefs that you care about more than anything else. Ceilings, work for the dead, temple work, temple endowments. The very center of what you believe you have because of the prophet Brigham Young, because everyone else threw them out. And Brigham Young said, if Joseph received it, I'm not throwing it out. So look, Brigham Young was an hard man at times when he thought people were denigrating what Joseph taught. Why does he struggle with what Orson Pratt is teaching? Because he knows that that's not what Joseph taught. Joseph didn't teach that we worship the attributes of God. Joseph taught that we worship God and that God has those attributes. I know that seems like a super technical thing. Welcome to 19th century theology, where people have all kinds of arguments about whether, you know, the nature of God is homo usion or homo, and that that can be the entire point of division among orthodox and Catholics. The reality is, for Latter Day Saints, there is only one person vested in it. And what's actually remarkable is the loyalty that the people who know Brigham Young best have to Brigham Young. They are the ones supporting him. So when you get people saying, oh, Brigham Young's a tyrant, Brigham Young this, Brigham Young that, you don't see it from the people who know him best. You see it from newspaper reporters that are urging armies on out to Utah to exterminate people. So I think that they, they functioned in. In a. In a way that was very similar to Joseph's councils, that when Joseph had counsels, everybody spoke up. And there was a time when people spoke up and said, well, we really think this. And Joseph said, you know what? I know you all think that, but that's not what God thinks. So that's not what we're going to do. And we could turn around and say, look at how tyrannical Joseph is that he said that we're going to do that. Or we could say that's actually the nature of having a prophet. The nature of having a prophet is that at some point the conversation is going to be brought to a close. At some point, there is only one person who is entitled to all the revelation of God, and that's how God set his church up. And so I think that in the current quorum of the 12, there are many different opinions, life stories, ideas, inspirations, and that when they get together, they do have great discussions about what they think the Lord wants them to do. But they all also look to the First Presidency and to President Nelson to make the final determination of what it is that they should do. Sometimes it's easy to see, like, whether or not we should worship the attributes of God. I'll tell you a time it wasn't easy to see. When the Mormon Battalion was called, when the Saints were fleeing Illinois Pell Mell in the middle of winter, having crossed with people dying all across I. In part because they believe there was an American army chasing them, trying to kill them. When. When Captain Allen rides over the bluff in Mount Pisgah and women and children run screaming because they think that this is the. The lead elements of the American cavalry coming to kill them. Or as the report they heard from the Secretary of the Of. Of War that the Mormons needed to be exterminated from off the face of the earth. Now, I don't know whether the Secretary of War actually said that, but I know that the Mormons were told that he said that. And given the fact that a whole bunch of them had just been murdered, that Joseph and Hyrum had just been murdered, and that no one was being brought to justice for anything, it was a pretty easy thing for the Latter Day Saints to believe. Hey, I think maybe they might be serious about killing us. They seem to keep doing it, and so probably this is what they do. Well, when Captain Allen rides over the bluff, Wilford Woodruff records very clearly in his journal what he thinks of Captain Allen. Captain Allen's like, you know, I'm here to raise a battalion of men for the war in Mexico. And Wilford Woodruff's like, I think he's a liar. I think he's just a spy. I think he's sent here to destroy us. So they go. They send him on to winter quarters. And Allen and the other army officers, they meet with Brigham Young, and nobody wants to sign up. Let me get this straight. I'm in the middle of nowhere because this government allowed me to be pushed off by both state and mobocratic forces from land that I purchased legally as an American citizen. I'm now in Indian territory, and I'm planning to leave the country entirely because you haven't respected my rights at all, and you want me to leave my family in the middle of NowHere and March 2000 miles for a flag that just rejected me. You know what? Appreciate the hustle, brah. Hard pass is what I'm pretty sure that a lot of the Saints there in winter quarters were saying. And when Brigham Young got this, he felt inspired to tell the Saints that they needed to enlist. There would not have been a Mormon battalion if Wilford Woodruff had his way. Now, there are few people in the history of the church that I love more than Wilford Woodruff. I. I cannot begin to express my admiration for him and Phoebe. Just. I Wish I could. 1% of me could be Wilford Woodruff or Phoebe Woodruff. But in that instance, he was reacting emotionally. He was reacting to very logical things. It was completely illogical to say, yeah, we'll raise troops. And yet now historians look back on it and say, wow, Brigham Young, really, if he hadn't made that choice, it would have been very difficult for the Saints to settle the way that they did. It have been very difficult for them to get as many people across the plains as fast as they did because they took the money from the battalion and used it to help get the poor out and across the plains. So there are certainly times that the Quorum of the twelve differed with Brigham Young, and. And I'm sure there are times that members of the Quorum have different ideas than. Than the President of the Quorum or. Or the. The First Presidency now. But they do all bathe their discussions in the light of what the Lord Jesus Christ wants for his church, and they all accept this important fact. Whatever our feelings on any topic are, the only person who holds the keys to receive Revelation for the entire Church all the time is President Nelson. And whatever prophet follows him, that's part of being the prophet. You have all those keys given. So I would say on that first question, I think it's overstated in the sense that it's easy to take anyone from any argument and argue, oh, this person's being unreasonable. But, boy, I don't get the sense from any of Brigham Young's Quorum meetings that people in the Quorum are afraid to speak their mind. They speak their mind right and left and up and down, and Brigham Young is often having to rein in. They're speaking of their mind because they're speaking far too much of their mind in relation to other people. And so I think. I don't consider that a concern that, you know, you said it doesn't trouble you, but hopefully it doesn't trouble other people. I think Brigham Young was a prophet who was the one given the keys to lead the Church for the time. And the other apostles, they believe that as well. Now, in the second part of your question, we have to save that to our next episode. It's an important thing. So I do want to talk about it. But we've also run right up against just how long it takes someone in Canada to fall down an icy hill while out jogging listening to us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I will say, Mike, that's a great reference. One of my favorite things is that you said, all right, I'm just going to handle this one quickly. I'm going to knock this one down, handle it quickly, yada, yada, yada.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What part of what I did wasn't quick?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No. For a historian, that's the quickest thing I've ever seen in my life.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, you know, it is interesting because I don't know if this is a way the people listening are aware of this. We don't have a script and we don't have editing and we don't have producers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, editing exists. We just don't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We don't have it. I mean, my kingdom for Lisa and David. Oh, my God. If they were producing and editing us, can you imagine, we would then sound like, I don't know, one eighth of what the follow him podcast is instead of, you know, 1 16th. But, but because we don't have a script, and I'm kind of just speaking off the cuff and going through sources, and a lot of the times I don't want to say it's inspiration. I don't want to. I don't want to clap myself on the back about what a wonderful good boy am, but a lot of times I don't expect to share a source until I start talking or as much of a source until I start talking. And that's part of the reason why our tangents are so bad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, but I will say, in this particular case, I feel like while the question was like, hey, I heard that Brigham did this, you were able to speak on kind of a larger point. And my experience, by the way, I look at the great leadership of a Joseph Smith or a Brigham Young, my, my experience around great leaders is to where they are surrounded by people that are. Have strong wills and strong opinions because you create better everything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I mean, all of us have had a bishop or a Relief Society president, an elders quorum president that you respected so much that, I mean, I've had bishops where I have said to myself, I would go on a camp out for that man. And I, I used to praise people don't understand the level of hatred that I have for camping is. It is legion. It cannot be numbered. It's numbered only to me, though. Well, I just. I can't stand it. And I went on so many hundreds of camp outs when I was a kid. I liked it initially, and I think I hit critical mass sometime when I was around 17. And I just said, you know what? I'm never doing this again. I hate this. And everyone will be like, oh, if only you went camping with me, you'd love it. Nope. The only way I could go camping and love it is if I was in an rv. And even then I'd be like, so can I get the game in this? And, you know, luckily now with Starlink, we can. You know, that's not a product placement. Given the fact that of the people who's not sponsoring the podcast, I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is not sponsoring the podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He is not. But I believe I've mentioned on this podcast as well, I've evolved to where I travel a lot for work. And so I'm a bit of a snob on certain types of things. I like the planes that I fly. I like the. The hotels that I stay in, the rental car. If. If I open my door to my. My hotel or motel and I'm outside, I consider that camping.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Oh, yeah. If you have an exterior door, where are you, Ephraim?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Possibly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Although this weekend, Richard and I are taking a little bit of a trip. Yes. And he's having to. He's having to condescend from. From on high, from his lofty heights of. I only fly Delta. First class, first.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't pay. You get upgrades.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He gets upgrades. But he's still like, when Richard doesn't get upgraded, he's actually stunned that he doesn't get. For me, I have legitimately been in first class one time in my life, and it was during COVID so they didn't hand anything out. So it was just. It was like them just walking by. We're not giving you any service. Everyone's got disease. Keep your mask up.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When you take the. The diet Dr. Pepper in an actual glass, it's just something special.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, they give you a real glass.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't get that back with.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so he. Because of the schedule of. Of our trip, he has to fly out of the Provo airport.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, my gosh.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And. And he's going to have to become familiar with. With what we call discount carriers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I sound like some sort of French aristocrat here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is name is La Duke. The Duke. I mean, come on.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's true. I, I mean, I've flown a lot. So you, you get the status and you just get used to the comforts of that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What world does someone with only an acre of land in 1615 Quebec have the audacity to refer to themselves as a Duke? I know. I'm the king of the world too, I guess.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We got kicked out of Lyon, you know, we, we've. We an acre.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's 16 people. We have one acre.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Were. Were you guys. Do you. Were you guys Huguenots? Do you know? Is that why you were kicked out of Lyon?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is that Jason and the Huguenots, not Argonauts? Argonauts, okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Huguenots, meaning they are French Calvinists during the wars of Reformation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And I'm pretty, I'm pretty sure we were Catholic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay. Because a lot of them got kicked out and they went to the New World.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What, to get out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. I don't know, I just assumed we were Catholic, but we could have. Look, we got kicked out for. There's a million reasons to kick a laduke out of anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So. Yeah, you know what? I'm going to get to the bottom then.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Luckily you're, you know, you're dad married into Judaism and so that less reasons to get kicked out of places.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no joke.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're excited for Passover. Passover and Easter line up well this year. It's really a Ten Commandments weekend. It's gonna be great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It'll be, it'll be tons of. We should do a live event surrounding.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That Charlton Heston live watch party.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, a live event where let my people go. I honestly, it's probably the greatest acting ever. Like when I think of Moses, in my mind, it's legitimately Charlton Heston holding tablets.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know, I don't think I told you this. We've well out of time. Everyone stopped listening a while ago.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They know this show. Why are we still working? I don't know, but we're doing it for you people.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, but so you know, President Oaks in the First Presidency came out last week with, with his great video and statement on. On Easter traditions. Right. And so as a family, we celebrate Passover. Well. And we don't do, you know, the whole thing. But we'll do, you know, a Seder light, you know, do you put some.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wine out for Elijah?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's wine. I don't know that there's any left necessarily for.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, the cup just has to be for the beginning of the night, not at the end.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're not going to leave the door open. We leave a window cracked just in case. So one thing we're going to try this year is we're going to try to do instead of a, at least this is what I sold to my family, is that instead of a Passover Seder, which we we do, it's not always Easter and Passover lineup, but we're going to do a resurrection Seder. We're going to try to do the, the fulfillment of the Passover as the dinner. We're going to give it the old college try and pitch it to the family. I think it could be actually kind of a fun thing as we try to follow President Oaks on that. So we'll see. We'll see how it goes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's awesome. And hopefully everyone's trying to find a way to make it more meaningful in their families because again, that's something coming from our first presidency and what they'd like us to do. So thank you so much for joining us. Really do appreciate everybody. I honestly have to say that when I read some of the emails, it is a very great comfort to me. It's easy to sit behind a microphone and, you know, think, well, I don't look, it's very easy for me to say, I don't think anyone could possibly care what it is that I have to say. The very fact that anyone listens at all is stunning to me and I can only attribute that to Richard and to board missionaries in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania or now the Arizona Tucson mission. But in fact, my son got a new companion last thing, Elder Muatalo and having a great time there, loving being in Tucson. So just want to say thank to everybody. Thank you to everyone for listening and thank you for your faith. Thank you for those of you who are struggling but still coming back to try to make the gospel work, those of you who are trying to get over sins, those of you who are fighting through the pain and the horrors incident to the deaths of loved ones, those of you who have questioned your testimony and those of you who have family members that are in that same place. I know that Jesus Christ loves all of you and it is my testimony to you that the Lord Jesus will aid you, will give you peace as you continue to seek after Him. And I hope in some way that when we talk about things on the podcast that the Holy Spirit touches your heart and helps you know that. So thank you so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.