S6E10 Live! With Chocolate-Flavored Candy and Zero Tertullian

Summary

Standard of Truth S6E10: Live! With Chocolate-Flavored Candy and Zero Tertullian

Date: March 5, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc
Theme: Faithful Humor and Deep Dives into Lesser-Known LDS Church History

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Main Theme & Purpose

This special live episode brings listeners into the heart of LDS history with the characteristic humor, sharp expertise, and candid faith of Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc. The focus is on answering quirky or challenging listener questions—including obscure Moroni encounters, debates about the date of the First Vision, and the spiritual role of Hyrum Smith—while infusing the discussion with laughter, tangents about chocolate-flavored candy, and genuine admiration for overlooked heroes.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Live Mailbag: Outrageous Circumstances & the Moroni Series (02:26–18:00)

Highlight:
An email arrives from Shay Lynn—written, comically, “from labor,” with contractions ongoing, at her family’s insistence to up the Moroni series' addendum count and grab podcast glory.

Discussion Points:

• The hosts joke that the only purpose for listening is to “sound smart in church” and warn about sharing too many insights lest one be “promoted” to higher callings (04:42–06:10).
• A new segment, suggested by the emailers, aims for anti-promotion—stories so obscure and niche, sharing them guarantees avoidance of leadership: “Material Center Corner” or “Sterling’s Sideline.”

Notable Quotes

• “No one’s listening for their own personal growth or salvation. It’s only to sound smart in church.” — Leduc (06:02)
• “You go read the King Follett sermon and then you just randomly start sharing parts of that to any question that's asked in Relief Society or in priesthood. Guaranteed, you're going to the materials.” — Dirkmaat (09:11)
• On sharing King Follett quotes door-to-door: “It was a less successful door approach.” — Dirkmaat (10:18)

Obscure Moroni Accounts

• The Story of Moroni with a Knapsack (10:18–14:40):
  • From Edward Stevenson’s letter: David Whitmer and companions, traveling to Fayette, encounter a mysterious man with a knapsack; they later learn from Joseph Smith this was Moroni, who “stepped back and disappeared.”
  • Whitmer’s mother later sees Moroni, who leafs through the plates, showing both sealed and unsealed sections.

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2. Angels, Adversaries, and “Activity Days” (15:19–22:38)

Wilford Woodruff’s England Mission Experiences:

• Woodruff describes harrowing experiences with evil spirits as apostles labor in England (16:35–22:38).
• On one occasion, he, George A. Smith, and others are delivered by three temple-clothed angels—Woodruff elaborates on why angelic intervention is rare and necessary.

Notable Quotes

• Wilford Woodruff (as recounted by Dirkmaat):
  “On one occasion, after Brother Kimball had left, these powers of darkness fell upon us to destroy our lives ... [three angels] laid their hands upon our heads, and we were delivered ...” (18:55–21:47)
• “I highly recommend quoting the King Follett sermon or this next story if you want to get to activity days or the material center.” — Dirkmaat (17:32)

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3. Date of the First Vision: Weather Forensics & Speculation (23:30–39:16)

Listener Question:
Is there an “official” or best-supported date for the First Vision?

Research and Riffs:

• The hosts discuss speculative attempts, such as using the Book of Enoch’s calendar (March 26 thesis) and 19th-century weather records from neighboring towns.
• Leduc produces “charts” comparing cloud cover and temperature from Rochester and Watertown, NY, to Palmyra, underscoring the difficulty (and futility) of precision given the available data.

Notable Quotes

• “If you have to go to a non-canonized book and perform calculations to figure out when [the First Vision] is, you’re so far speculative that I don’t even know how you could really share that.” — Dirkmaat (29:20)
• “If you start saying ‘if’ so many times...by the time you get to the end, well, that’s a lot of ifs..." — Dirkmaat (31:40)
• “The most important part is that the First Vision happened.” — Dirkmaat (29:02)

Host Summary:
There is no official Church position; all attempts to calculate the exact date are speculative and, while potentially fun, do not meaningfully help faith or historical confidence.

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4. Hyrum Smith and Revelatory Authority (42:24–50:34)

Listener Question:
Did Hyrum Smith, as co-prophet, receive any written revelations or visions? Did he see Christ?

Key Insights:

• Hyrum participated in key founding visions (e.g., Kirtland Temple dedication), gave potent sermons, and Joseph encouraged the Saints to heed his counsel.
• No known direct written revelations or accounts of visions from Hyrum post his designation as co-prophet, but his teachings carried substantial prophetic weight.

Word of Wisdom Teachings

• Hyrum on the Word of Wisdom:
  Strong denouncements of alcohol and tobacco, and a categorical statement: "hot drinks" refers to tea and coffee (45:41–46:24).
• Brigham Young backs Hyrum’s clarity:
  “As if this doesn’t refer directly, perfectly, absolutely, definitely and truly to that which we did drink hot ... It alludes to tea and coffee.” (48:13)

Notable Quotes

• “[Hyrum] is not fit for the office. He ought to first learn to keep the word of wisdom and then to teach others. God will not prosper the man who uses [tobacco].” — Hyrum Smith (45:41)

Broader Message:
Rejecting specific prophetic counsel—even on “little” things—leads to spiritual darkness and eventual apostasy. The difference between sinning and justifying sin is crucial for spiritual survival (54:16–58:00).

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5. Heroes from Church History: The Overlooked Saints (60:10–75:00)

Prompted by Live Question:
Who are your unsung heroes from Church history?

Richard Leduc: Mary Fielding Smith

• Celebrated for unflagging faith amid relentless trials and persecutions.
  • “She suffered as much as anyone, and she was faithful always until the end.” (60:39)

Gerrit Dirkmaat: Olive Boyington Hale & Emmaline Anderson

• Olive Boyington Hale stood firm in the faith despite her apostle brother’s apostasy.
• Emmaline Anderson lost her husband and son during the “Battle of Nauvoo” yet remained committed, her correspondence from Council Bluffs to her estranged family expressing undiminished testimony and yearning for genealogy to perform temple work (67:55–74:00).

Notable Quotes & Moments

• “There are people who have gone through far, far worse things, and they are certain that Jesus is the Christ, that this is God’s church, and that eventually, just like she wrote, eventually it will be made up to her. So she’s one of my heroes from church history that nobody knows about.” — Dirkmaat (73:29)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Chocolate-Flavored Candy Tangent:
  Debates about whether “Yoohoo” constitutes chocolate, paralleling church history’s fine print and rebranding (“It’s chocolate flavored…they’re not legally allowed to say it’s chocolate.” — Leduc, 15:13)
• “Material Center” & Leadership Avoidance:
  “If you want to stay in a second-hour calling, shoot for stories even more obscure than the 1850’s Provo Stake Conference minutes!” — Paraphrased mailbag question (08:22)
• Doctrine for Dodge:
  "If you do [quote history] enough, you will get promoted at church." — Dirkmaat (06:10)
• Podcast Self-Deprecation:
  “All of our tens of zero people.” — Leduc, regarding the "crack research staff" (28:12)
• Live Audience Energy:
  “There was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of the people here [descended from early British converts]. Just think about that for a minute. Talk about the number of apples from that seed!” — Dirkmaat (16:44)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

| Time | Topic | |-----------|--------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:26 | Mailbag/Labor email & Moroni Series addendums | | 10:18 | Edward Stevenson’s Moroni-as-knapsack story | | 15:13 | Yoohoo “chocolate” debate | | 16:35 | Woodruff’s angelic and adversarial encounters in England | | 23:30 | Date of the First Vision: “Official” stance and speculations | | 33:11 | Weather data analysis for First Vision date | | 42:24 | Hyrum Smith’s revelations & Word of Wisdom | | 48:13 | Brigham Young’s candor on hot drinks | | 60:10 | Unsung heroes from church history | | 67:55 | Emmaline Anderson’s story and faith |

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Tone & Style

• Witty & Irreverent: Seamlessly mixing claims that "Yoohoo isn’t chocolate" with scholarly critiques on the nature of revelation and speculation in history.
• Deeply Faithful: Even in jest, the hosts’ reverence for pioneers’ faith and prophetic counsel shapes every insight.
• Engagingly Self-Deprecating: The hosts regularly poke fun at themselves, their research, and the podcast’s ambitions (“tens of tens of listeners”).

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For Listeners Who Missed It

This live episode of Standard of Truth is as much about the heart behind church history as the stories themselves. You’ll hear how faith and humor mesh, with valuable reminders on why specifics (like the exact day of the First Vision) matter less than the spiritual truths behind them. The episode leaves listeners with a deepened appreciation for both well-known and forgotten Saints, the weight of prophetic guidance, and—crucially—the joy of navigating faith’s oddities together.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[B]

Hi. Welcome to a very special live studio broadcast of the Standard of Truth podcast.

[C]

Nailed it.

[B]

Wow. Yeah.

[C]

Freaking nailed it.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Boy, that. That was completely undeserved and spontaneous. Yeah. Luckily, Richard wasn't coaching anyone, and I am joined by my friend and Suzuki sidekick co host, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[C]

Oh, that was very good. Remarkably less excited. Thank you for having me back, Garrett. Happy to be here. What are we gonna talk about today?

[B]

I. Well, we thought we'd get all these fine people together. We have people that have traveled hours and then also people, the Rizzos, who traveled seconds to get here. And so we have. We have. We're grateful that everyone got together and. And we're gonna just jump right into the.

[C]

The mailbag offense.

[B]

Okay, Are you ready?

[C]

I am ready.

[B]

Okay.

[C]

Okay, here we go. The Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag.

[B]

You just misread. I did. Title

[C]

choked on the Palmer and the Phoebe and the Draper and the Brown. So the problem is I cannot see that. So I have made it slightly larger, so I'm going to read it just slightly larger. Dear Dr. Dark Garrett, Dirk Mott and Dr. Richard Leduc. Comma.

[B]

The comma is very large.

[C]

This is an audio medium, by the way.

[B]

Yeah. If you can't see the people who are here live, they know that we have a face made for radio. And so generally people don't have to watch us when we do this. And when our wives do, they just fall asleep. So.

[C]

Well, so here's the email. The subject line, Labor. Hello from labor. As in contractions are happening now. I am currently having my third child. I would like it noted that this email is being written under duress and not of my own free will. My father and brother in law.

[B]

Just like all the people who came to this live,

[C]

my father and brother in law have insisted that this is the moment to send an email because they want the honor and bragging rights to be read on the most prestigious podcasts. My father, Marion, met Dr. Dirkmaat in Nauvoo this past summer and asked about getting an email read. While your response indicated it was near impossible, we have found a workaround. While I am somehow misread it already, while I'm Someone who would rather stay quietly hidden in the shadows. I have consented to both their requests before the question and a confession on behalf of my brother in law. The Moroni series is his absolute favorite part of the podcast. At some point he secretly vowed that between his wife's babies and mine, we would do whatever it took to make the Moroni series the highest part series in the podcast. This seemed reasonable at the time. Unfortunately, he realized that with the Dead and in Hell series as large as it is, this plan would require both my sister and me to continue having children until approximately season 38 or longer. I mean, there's a lot of people who are dead and in hell. There are obviously carefully and medically decided to scale expectations and have now moved the goal post to making it so there are more addendums to the Moroni series than any other parts in it. Which leads to the actual question. Some of us enjoy quietly basking in the background knowing that all information from your podcast, but not sharing. In other words, some of us really don't want to jump to AP or to General Young men's or Young Women's President. You want to explain that really quick to the.

[B]

Yeah. So for those of you who don't want to be here, last year was Doctrine and Covenants. And obviously, I mean, I'm not going to say that I'm more skilled in. I guess I have slightly more skills in that than I do other things because that's what I studied was church history. But we don't follow the manual as it is already obvious we answer church history questions, you know, during an Old Testament year. Those are a little bit different than, than. Than following along with the manual.

[C]

And so by the way, the downloads reflect that. By the way.

[B]

Yeah. Yep. That's why we're doing a live event. Anyway. No, so we started. We one time had a very kind woman who had. Someone had. Had just dropped the ball on speaking for the Easter sermon. And so they asked her if she would do it with like it was like two days, three days.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so she wrote and said, is there anything you could help me with this topic? And so we, we. Her name was Christy. And so we started doing for the rest of the year, Christie's Corner, which was it. We even had a little sounder for it, you know, so that when you want to sound smart in Sunday school, right, you listen to us providing a little insight into that week's lesson. Then you go to church and pretend that it's just all from you and your own studying. Right? Which is the only reason anyone listens to any podcast anyway.

[C]

That's, that's, that's our theory is that no one's listening for their own personal growth or salvation. It's only to sound smart in church. So.

[B]

Because that way you can raise your hand and say, well actually, and then, you know, and if you do that enough, you will get promoted at church. Yeah, so that's the, that's the idea. So we, we, you know, we, we warn people that if you keep using stuff that we share with you like that, the next thing you know, you know, Release Society second counselor. Next thing you know, after that, Release Society President, next thing you know, after that, Stake Relief Society Council. And it just keeps going. So I mean, yeah, that's what I think.

[C]

And nobody used that more to rise to the top than Elder Abel, that previously served in the the Layton, Utah Mission, who rose from senior companion to AP in just. Well, roughly two years.

[B]

Actually it was a fairly natural progression, but we believe aided by the fact that he was quoting things from the

[C]

podcast, he would regularly steal things Garrett said in district meeting and then oh, so thoughtful and profound.

[B]

But you guys didn't know that that was the third account of the first vision. Yeah, like no Elder, how did you know that? I just, I just been studying onto the email.

[C]

We are essentially hoping for something that is the opposite of Chrissy's corner. Something interesting. But if we share it during second hour of church, we will get a few interested nods. But the higher ups will secretly mark us as someone not not to move quickly up the ranks in church leadership.

[B]

So this is like the material center corner.

[C]

I also recommended that we name this section Sterling's sideline in honor of my obnoxious brother in law who is the reason you are currently reading this email. Finally, here's the actual question that we have. Are there any obscure, lesser known, slightly niche witness or stories of the Angel Moroni? I want it to be so far on the fridge that the 1850s Provost State Conference minutes wouldn't even have it. Something that's very funny. Something that is interesting but just a bit radical and will ensure those who would like to stay in the second hour calling will have their wishes granted. And try your best not to include the council of 50 minutes because that would obviously have the opposite effect desired. All three of us would like to thank you for your podcast, the hours of learning and laughter. Sincerely, Shay Lynn, who does not know or certainly does not believe that I know how to pronounce anything as she

[B]

gave many, many she has A pronunciation guide. Do you remember when you were in grade school and there was a phonics book? That's what she wrote out in her email.

[C]

Really went after my intelligence on that one.

[B]

Yeah, it was. She is pretty certain that Richard has no idea how to read. All right.

[C]

Garrett, lesser known witness of the angel Morona.

[B]

Well, so first and foremost, you're thinking about this too hard, Shaylyn. I mean, you are in labor, but. And I don't know if the drugs have taken effect.

[C]

Well, this happened in January.

[B]

Oh, okay. Yeah. So, yes. The baby's celebrating.

[C]

They're getting baptized.

[B]

I could probably drink again. So you're thinking about it too hard. Because, look, I've said it before. I'm going to say it again. You just need the King Follett sermon. That's all you need. You go read the King Follett sermon and then you just randomly start sharing parts of that to any question that's asked in Relief Society or in priesthood. Guaranteed, you're going to the materials. Okay.

[C]

Let's reenact this. Really? It's one of my favorite things. I do it all. Yeah. All right. We're doing a door approach.

[B]

Yeah. On my mission.

[C]

On your mission?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The packers game is going on. You knock on my door. What,

[B]

you suppose God was God for all eternity? I will refute that idea. I will take away the veil.

[C]

He legitimately did that. He legitimately did that on his mission.

[B]

I didn't quote that part of it. Somebody who answered the door said, well, what, you know, what do you even think this life is about? And I said, well, we can become like God because God used to be like us. And the way it starts is he didn't get.

[C]

Most people believe in a supreme being, even though we may call him by different names.

[B]

That is not what God lives. And we'd like to share with you our feelings about him. That's how it was. No, what I started.

[C]

Missions.

[B]

We're going to become my God. Yeah. It was a less successful door approach. It was less successful. So the other part of this, I guess to answer the question, I'm going to pull up a couple of. One of them is going to be fairly familiar to you. But it comes from Edward Stevenson, as you.

[C]

Oh, yes, of course. Yes, yes. The well known Edward Stevenson.

[B]

Edward Stevenson, actually. Edward Stevenson. He did an awful lot to secure some of our history, and he actually did an awful lot to ensure that some of the early members of the church who had apostatized in the early days came back to the church. Edward Stevenson is the one who essentially works with Martin Harris to get Martin Harris to come back.

[C]

There you go.

[B]

So. So he's also similarly trying to work with David Whitmer. Now, that one's less successful. Yeah. Because David Whitmer says no. But he writes a letter back to Wilford Woodruff, and he shares part of what David Whitmer shares him. So even though David Whitmer's still not happy with the church and certainly not happy with the fact that they were still practicing plural marriage, he certainly has a testimony of the Book of Mormon. And so he writes a letter back. He writes a letter to Wilford Woodruff later telling him about this experience that he had. He says that before going to Peter Whitmer's at Fayette, Seneca County, New York, to continue the translation of the Book of Mormon, David's telling me that he was baptized in Seneca Lake or the river in June 1829, and being ordained immediately after called to assist in this great work. June 1829, is good evidence to me. Now, again, he stated to me soon after he was ordained, he was preached. And I mean, Edward Stevenson's quite an intelligent guy, but the way he spelled baptized here is with a B. So it's baptized. If you're related to him, maybe you can, you know, I, I, you can go back and hide that from the family, you know, shame. Right. That he's baptized and that there was a number baptized. So that at the organization of the church on the 6th of April, the following year, 1830, there were in his father's house, a double log house of two rooms, about 40, mostly members of the church, but only six elders, hence the so often repeated saying the church was organized as six members. Now, I don't think David Whitmer's actually accurate about that. He changes his stories quite a bit over the course of time. But this is what he's saying. I believe David, and if I'm misled in this, I'm open to conviction and request to be corrected. I have been in the church since 1833, 58 years, and I wish to inculcate correct doctrines. David also related that while coming from Harmony, about halfway to Fayette, New York, which was in June of 1829, they saw Moroni, spelled with an A, actually. So they saw Moroni, who at that time appeared as an ordinary man in common attire and with a knapsack on his back. He asked him to ride with them, but he replied, I am only going over to Cumorah. He stepped back and he disappeared. Oliver and David asked the prophet to inquire of the Lord who this mysterious and distinguished visitor was. David told me that when he looked back at the prophet, he looked to him nearly transparent, and said, that was Moroni with the plates. And soon after their arrival at Fayette, David said his mother saw Moroni and he also opened the plates, turning them over leaf by leaf, but there was some portion sealed with three gold rings. My visit was very much enjoyed and I had a very. And made a very good impression upon him, but not as much as with Martin Harris, who I visited in Bratzeside. So it doesn't end perfectly well, but so there's. I mean, I think some people have heard that story, maybe not in Edward Stevenson's letter, but they have that encounter with Moroni. But I thought, well, since we're talking about unidentified, possibly angels, I mean, I

[C]

was, I thought you were moving on. So I went to the next email. I thought you were done.

[B]

I didn't, you know, in our pre production meeting, we should have discussed it. Instead we got fat on these Yoo chocolates that someone brought to us.

[C]

Yes, Yoohoo chocolate and Internet search.

[B]

Yeah, there is nothing. Someone very kind brought us something. Some Yoohoo mini candy bars. And it's kind of like chocolate. You'll notice even on the bag it doesn't say chocolate. It's chocolate flavored. Well, they're not.

[C]

Yeah, they're not legally allowed to say it's chocolate.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's chocolate.

[C]

It's like Oreo saying cream. We're just gonna spell it different.

[B]

Creme. Yeah, creme. Like it's a French dessert. Is there Gratia. A cookie. Anyway, so sticking with the theme, I thought with Wilford Woodruff, because Wilford Woodruff in his sermon talks about a pretty cool experience. He talks about it a couple of times and it kind of goes back to our discussion a few podcasts ago. For those of you who've never listened before, ever ago, about paradise and spirit world and, and, and about the evil spirits that are there. So in an 1889 discourse, you know, Wilford Woodruff is, he's seen some years at this point. You know, he's. He's not the spring chicken he once was. He. He's telling the congregation this. Some of you have read the history of the power of the devil in England and he's talking about when the quorum of the 12 went on their great mission to England and they baptized so many people. Well, because they were having such incredible success, which changed. I mean, we could probably even ask how many people in this auditorium right now are in some way descended from people converted in England by that quorum of the 1200.

[C]

Holy cow.

[B]

You can't see this. And this is an audio medium. And so that's really one of the worst ways to do anything ever.

[C]

But six people raised their hand, Gary.

[B]

No, it was probably somewhere in the neighborhood of 70% of the people here raised their hand. Just think about that for a minute. Talk about the number of apples from that seed, right? That this apostolic missionary journey, it forms the foundation of what we have as the gospel today. So you better believe that the adversary is trying to stop that. And they run into multiple very real, very powerful experiences where the adversary is trying to stop them and in their work. And Wilford Woodruff talks about it, and he talks about this particular instance that I think people will find interesting and will also get you relegated to activity days.

[C]

Oh, very good.

[B]

I mean, Angie does activity days. Right now we've realized greatest calling in the entire church. It is two hours twice a month. That's it. And they're like 10 year olds. So you can be like, do you want to like finger paint something? And they say, yes, then you're done. It's incredible. So I highly recommend quoting the King Fallet sermon or this next story that I'm going to share with you if you want to get to activity days or the material center. So are you our ward?

[C]

Our word just unlocks it.

[B]

And there's no one even there. Don't have anyone in protecting what, the erasers in the crayons?

[C]

Oh, my gosh, that's hilarious. The member of the bishopric goes, unlocks it, opens it. So it's just.

[B]

So if we go to your ward on Sunday, it's just grand. It's just. Look. Yeah. When I was like going to a New York City cvs, just go in and take whatever you want. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Look, when I was on my. When I was on my mission, they treated it like the holy of holies. You could never go into the library. Your key didn't work. But yeah, no, it's like, yeah, here's

[B]

still how my ward treats it.

[C]

Yeah. Here's. Here's a picture of Washington D.C. temple

[B]

from 1982 when I was the Elders Corps president. I had a key to get into the building, but was not allowed to get into the. I'm like, well, we need it for this.

[C]

Yeah. You couldn't access the 17 inch TVs

[B]

that got in there. I was. They were worried. They were worried I'd run off with the picture tube TV that they've had strapped to a cart since 1994. 13 inches, black and white. VHS only. Anyway, back to Wilford Woodruff. Yeah, back to Wolverine. Yeah. Yeah. Some of you have read the history of the power of the devil in England. When the fallen angels that are upon the earth made war upon Brother Kimball, Brother Hyde and Brother Fielding and Brother Russell, who had all that they could do to live in the midst of that kind of warfare, these evil spirits knocked down Brother Russell and Brother Hyde. They didn't bother Brother Kimball, but that power fell upon him. His eyes were open and he saw the spirits before him. He saw the kinds of beings that they were. They gnashed their teeth. They were mad. They wanted to destroy the lives of the brethren. These men held the priesthood. Brother Kimball held the keys of the priesthood. So far as England was concerned. These spirits had not, therefore, the power to destroy them. Brother Kimball, Brother George A. Smith and myself had a similar experience in London. At a house where we were stopping. It seemed as if there were legions of evil spirits there. They sought our destruction. And on one occasion, after Brother Kimball had left, these powers of darkness fell upon us to destroy our lives. And Brother Smith and myself would have been killed, apparently, had not three holy messengers come into the room and filled the room with light. They were dressed in temple clothing. They laid their hands upon our heads, and we were delivered. And that power was broken. So far as we were concerned. Why did the Lord send these men to us? Because we could not have lived without it. And as a general thing, angels do not administer to anybody on earth unless it is to preserve the lives of good men or to bring the gospel or to perform a work that men cannot do for themselves. That is the reason Moroni and the angel, the other angels of God visited and taught Joseph Smith. They quoted him whole chapters in the Bible, in Isaiah, Jeremiah and Ezekiel. And they told him what must come to pass in the last days. It was necessary for these angels to give him the priesthood. There was no mystery at all with regard to what was taught. He knew that it was of God. These very principles sustained Joseph Smith from the hour that the gospel was delivered to him until he sealed his testimony with his blood. Now I have all these testimonies, and they are true. But with all these, I have never had any testimony since I have been in the flesh that has been a greater testimony than that of the Holy Ghost. That is the strongest testimony that being given to me or to any man in the flesh. Now Everyone has the right when they obtain is a living witness to him. It deceives no man and never has. Lucifer may appear to man in the capacity of an angel of light, but there is no deception with the Holy Ghost. We do not particularly need the administration of the angels unless we are in the conditions similar to that in which Brother Kimball, Brother Smith, and myself were placed when we could not save our lives without them. That's pretty powerful testimony coming from President Woodruff. So you were so desperate to move on.

[C]

No, that was. That's a beautiful. That was a beautiful story. Okay, I will move on now. Yeah, I mean, that's very good.

[B]

What do you want me to do? Yeah.

[C]

Excuse me.

[B]

Material center, here you come. Couldn't you just, like, self appoint yourself to the material center?

[C]

Yeah, you could just walk in there and say, hey, I'm the librarian.

[B]

I'm gonna. If I was in your.

[C]

No man taking this honor unto himself,

[B]

except he did this call of God. I would go, as was Aaron. I would just go in there, and then people would be like, oh, you got called. And I'd say, yes.

[C]

Yeah. So, yeah. And then I'd be watching videos on

[B]

my phone, which is what I'd be doing yesterm anyway.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You wanted to do the. The next up was the.

[B]

How are those chairs treating you down there?

[C]

Very, very nice.

[B]

Angie. Did you not show them that they recline better? Yeah, well, stop trying to be respectful.

[C]

We've been dating for a month. We don't want reclining chairs just yet.

[B]

They're separated. They've got blankets. It's like a bundling bag. They're fine.

[C]

It's very good. You wanted to go to the time of the first vision. Is the next. Yeah, sure, we'll do that one.

[B]

Yeah, I sent that to you. Right?

[C]

You did send that to me. Up to the next one.

[B]

Here.

[C]

This comes to us from Harley, the day of the first vision. Hello. Dr. Dirk Mott and Dr. Leduc. I have listened to your podcast since the beginning, but this got me. But I got. Then got sidetracked.

[B]

They said. Dr. LeDoux.

[C]

They did say that.

[B]

Whenever. I think it would be better if your name was Ledoux, because you could be like, Chris, a great country singer.

[C]

Yeah, I know. I know. That's what people think it is, actually.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

So it's Ladak first, Deluci second. The capital D creates a rare dyslexia.

[B]

Everyone thinks you're Italian.

[C]

Deluci. So then. So it's. It's Deluci. And then Ladouche is third. This unfortunate should be first. It is. It's first in my heart, third in the name, and no one ever gets Leduc except in Quebec.

[B]

Yeah, notice I don't give him any sympathy whatsoever. No, Dirk, because every time I've ever told anyone my name, it's my first name's Garrett, but it's spelled the Dutch way way, which sometimes people get correctly now because of Elder Gong, thankfully.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Very grateful that Elder Gong was called as. I mean, he's an amazing apostle already. But also the first name helps a lot because now people like, oh, is it spelled like Elder gone? It is spelled like Elder Gong. So, so great that way. But. And then Dirk Mott. No one's ever gotten correctly. No.

[C]

Oh my gosh, no.

[B]

And in fact, if you want to hear a humorous story, those of you who are here against your will and hating every second of it, have your significant other or parent or whoever drug you here. Listen to the very, very, very first episode of this podcast where we talk about that.

[C]

Yes, Dirk Moss. Yeah, I've listened to your podcasts yada, yada yada, but since then got sidetracked along the way and I'm catching up again. Great work. There is a popular LDS opinion piece video where these two men independently come to the conclusion on the date of the first vision, but with very different backgrounds. And they both come to that conclusion on different ways as well. I am very interested if there is an official church supported insight on it or if the two of you have any thoughts on it. I am not in labor nor looking.

[B]

That is a pretty. Yeah, one of the things you can't trip over is are you in labor?

[C]

Yes, well, we're reading the email. What more do they want? Even if I'm wrong about it, I am not in labor nor looking for sports betting advice. See President Hinckley's conference address from 2005 titled Gambling. But even. But even if you don't read this on the air, I would love some direction to a podcast if you have talked on the subject or any insights you have. P.S. not a premium. Why are we reading it if they're

[B]

not a premium subscriber? Yeah, not a premium subscriber. Boy, seriously. And scene.

[C]

Yeah. Yes, something.

[B]

And the delete. Phoebe.

[C]

All right, so just really quick though. I did put together the standard of truth Stone cold locks of the century. So if you want to turn 10 individual bets for $10 into a million for entertainment purposes only, I did put that together. It's the Detroit Tigers winning the World Series San Antonio winning the championship. Detroit Red Wings winning Stanley Cup. Florida Gators winning the national championship.

[B]

Florida Gators who won three games last year or whatever.

[C]

Yep, that's why it turns $10 into a million, Garrett.

[B]

Gold coast turn $10 into 30 million. That's just that alone.

[C]

Gold Coast Suns winning the Australian League's football or football league premiership. Winning the cricket World cup there. Canterbury Bulldogs to win the NRL premiership. Argentina to win the FIFA World Cup. Washington Nationals to come in last. And then the some things are sure. Raj Hashathon. Sorry, Royals to to win the the India Premier League cricket championship. The odds are 1 in about 96 billion, but. And I got some bonus picks here for you as well. So this is, you know, this is just the odds. And then we have. We do have a Dodgers fan in the audience, I believe. Yes, very much so. They are the heavy favorites. Seahawks, Avalanche, Oklahoma City. Entertainment purposes only. Garrett, the date of the first vision. Now, should we get the crack research staff on this?

[B]

Yeah, let's get the correct research staff on this. Notice his. We'll get them on it.

[C]

I'll shoot the bat signal and get everybody working on that.

[B]

Okay. Yeah, all of our tens of zero people.

[C]

We're giving them opportunities as well.

[B]

So regarding this, I think I know what they're referencing there. There are a couple of people that think they've really nailed down when the first vision is. The most important part of that question was, you know, is there an official church position on it? And the most important answer to any question like that is no, because, you know, like, I get it. I mean, it's fun to speculate about things. I mean, if you weren't speculating, both with your money and your time, you wouldn't be here or listening to this podcast. Right. So I get it. It's fun to speculate. It's fun to say, well, if this, then this. And you know, there's a couple of people, as they said, that think that they've tried to calculate it. The one has made the argument that if you use the Book of Enoch calendar from the book that we are currently working through in our podcast, but not getting through it because we spent a little bit too much time talking about how tall giants were and we didn't quite get to Tertullian and because Richard made fun of me for saying we were going to talk about Tertullian,

[C]

teased Tertullian twice and well, now I've

[B]

done it like four times and then I said, can we do it at the live event? And you Said no. And so, so we were going to continue our discussion of the Book of Enoch and we're not anymore because. But I'm going to try to sneak it in anyway. This is part of how I'm doing it anyway. This apocryphal book, the Book of Enoch, is a, it was in circulation among some Jews at the time of Jesus and some early Christians considered it an important book too. But it was never canonized, was never part of the Hebrew Bible. Well, in that book he lays out a calendar that's based on 364 days being in a year and that it's made in such a way that the holidays, the holy days happen on the same days. And so this person said, oh, well, I looked and followed out what the holy days would have been. And the way you make up for. Because you're missing a day, right? So how do you make up for that day? Well, every seven years you have a, a jubilee year where there's an extra seven. Every seven years you have a seven day jubilee and you make up for it that way. So that's, that's the idea behind it. And they calculate out and said, well, that would have been March 26th. So therefore that must have been the day that the first vision happened. Because that's kind of in the spring. And if I sound incredibly skeptical of something like that, it's because if you have to go to a non canonized book and perform calculations to figure out when it is, you're so far speculative that I don't even know how you could really even share that. I mean, how are you helping anyone at that point? Like the most important part is that the first vision happened. If you happen to know what day, maybe. Okay, but the church certainly doesn't say. Now the other person who came at this from another direction said, well, wait a minute, Joseph Smith says that it was, you know, on a beautiful, clear, you know, spring day. What if I went back and I looked at all the weather reports and then I decided for myself what counted as clear, what counted as beautiful, what counted as spring, and I set the parameters and then I go back and look at what some of the weather reports are from the time to try to find the day. There's a couple problems with that and I think I've already outlined them. And that is. Well, just because you think that a day isn't beautiful if it's not over 40 degrees, telling you what if you're from southeast Idaho, you can be pretty happy for a 40 degree spring day, it can be a wonderful day in southeast Idaho at 40 degrees. You can see the part of the, the reason why it would be hard to take that. I mean, it's speculative, it's interesting, it's fun, but it's so speculative that it actually gets to the end of. I don't know how this could actually help me know it. Because if we say that a beautiful day has to be a day over 40 degrees, and if we say that it has to be after this certain time period, and if we say that that a clear day means there can't be a cloud in the sky, and if you start saying if so many times that by the time you get to the end of it, well, that's a lot of ifs. And, you know, historians don't really deal with that. We deal with documents. But, you know, they, they examined some weather reports from roughly 80, 85 miles away and said, well, if this weather that is here, you know, reflects what the weather was in Palmyra, then, you know, this day would have been terrible. It been rainy. It could have been that day. And then this day would have been this and this. How's the crack research going?

[C]

We got something here. I don't want to cut.

[B]

No, go ahead.

[C]

Okay. Okay.

[B]

I, I figured.

[C]

All right, so we put something together here. You haven't seen this, right? Giving a lot of kids an opportunity. So the issue is that we've. All right, so if you look at. So they don't actually have weather reports for Palmyra, the closest you can get is Rochester. And then you can't get Sackets Harbor. I mean, I know they have some logs.

[B]

That's the one.

[C]

That's right. But the closest you can get is Watertown, New York. And that's roughly. I mean, you're from Rochester to. It's about 132 miles. So then looking at the national oceanic and Atmosphere Administration, weather.gov and Weatherspark, we were able to kind of put together some differences between temperature between Watertown and Rochester. We also looked at cloud cover as well as precipitation differences between those.

[B]

This is a lot better if you can see his charts.

[C]

One of the issues is really chance of clearer skies. So we went ahead and put together kind of a table. We highlighted what might be spring specifically so that we could look at the differences between those and then ran some kind of different analysis. You're going to have. Now, Rochester is influenced and dominated by Lake Ontario's eastern fetch.

[B]

While. Yes, while.

[C]

No, sorry, the. The. The southern fetch, while the Watertown is the eastern one. So you have different elements coming in, affecting the different.

[B]

What you're saying, you know. Right.

[C]

I know what fetch means.

[B]

Okay, so I'll bet you do.

[C]

So, ultimately, the likelihood in a 365 day of having the exact same weather is roughly 52.5%. And having. Or. Yeah, matching both or neither versus exactly one, clearer skies is only 47.5%. So if the question is, what was that day, the day that he went? Maybe. I don't know. Yeah.

[B]

And that's really the answer. That was impressive.

[C]

Yeah, that's very good.

[B]

The point being, I mean, you actually don't have to look very far back in history to see that. I mean, even on the day that this question came in, I just did a brief check, and it was literally raining in Sackets harbor, but clear in Palmyra, literally that day. So it's like. Well, again, is it possible? Sure, it's possible. The other argument was because of the weather, when you have to tap maple trees, and we know that the Smiths were tapping maple trees, it's likely that Joseph would have been too busy on other days when he was tapping the maple trees to go out and ask his question. From a historian's perspective, that's. It's just so highly speculative that it's not helpful. Right. It's. Is it possible that's the day? Sure. Are we any closer to thinking that that's the day, given these things? Well, probably not, actually, because, frankly, I mean, Joseph is clearly willing to receive revelations on days when he's supposed to be out working in the farm, as we know, for when Moroni comes back. Like, why didn't you tell your dad about the place? Slipped my mind. I need to go steal the plates. Is. I mean, when he first got. When he first was told about the plates, you know, he was. He was enamored by the. The wealth that they might bring. So it. What I would say is, you know, no, the church doesn't have an official position. I don't know any historians who work with that era. PhD historians who would say, oh, yeah, that's a really good argument. They would probably say, I mean, I guess that's possible. I think the argument for the calendaring of Enoch is even. It's even more speculative. Right. Let's. Let's take a calendar that wasn't even used the same way by the biblical Israelites, and we'll say that that's the calendar that God decided. And he. He's just trying to slip it in on us. Like, you know, if they. If they read the Book of Enoch, then they'll know. I mean, that's. We haven't really had a whole lot of prophets telling us to go read the Book of Enoch. So my guess is if there's things in it that you desperately need to know that a prophet would tell you to read it. Not that, you know, you might gain some insights reading it. We believe that there's truth in all kinds of good books, but there's also a lot of things that are false in there, like the fact that evil comes from angels who were creations of God, who married women and had giant children. That's kind of. Not everything in it's true. Okay. So anyway, that.

[C]

That's.

[B]

Do you have any other charts you need to talk about?

[C]

No, no, no, I just put that. Whip that together really quick.

[B]

Yeah, that was. It's interesting because I was like, I don't know if we have time for that. No, no, we have time for it. I'm like, I don't. I don't think we have time to do the first vision. No, no, we have time. I'm like, are you sure? Why are you so. Why are you so desperate to do this?

[C]

Gonna make time. He did it.

[B]

He didn't show me those charts, so I didn't know. And we were talking like, so are you gonna. Are you gonna do the weather one? And

[C]

she has to go to the bathroom.

[B]

Oh, there goes my daughter Annika. Lovely girl. Did. Did my son already leave? Oh, he went to go get food. Okay. Yeah. He is a 17 year old boy and so. Yeah, yeah, like your son. My son also thinks that if you have nothing better to do, it's just okay. The podcast is just okay. But, yeah, we were talking about what topics. I'm like, well, I think I want to do this one. I think I want to do this one. Richard was very adamant about doing that weather one, but didn't tell me why. He wasn't like, no, I really think we should.

[C]

We talked about it last night and he was going to do it, and so then last night I spent all the time doing it. And this morning he's like, you know, I think I want to go a different direction.

[B]

You know what the worst part is? I actually had kind of a spiritual prompting, and so I was like, you know, I. I keep having this other thing come back to me, and I think I'm just gonna do that. I was like, no, you don't want to do that. That's what he said.

[C]

So, I mean, in fairness, we're going to that one right now.

[B]

There's no time. We got another one after that one. It's the last one. We got to do the other one. Hiram. Yeah, the other one.

[C]

Oh, okay. Yeah, Gonna do one after Hiram.

[B]

I mean, if we got. Okay, probably not now.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Captain charts.

[C]

The joke landed. All right, so then we'll quickly go through this. This next one here. Rudy emails in. Dear Dr. Dream Crusher and Dr. Gangrene Dangling Antelope.

[B]

There was one episode where we talked about that Richard was.

[C]

Was laboring over my dissertation.

[B]

Yes. That he was a gangrenous antelope dragging himself along.

[C]

I have been one of your tens of tens of longtime littner. No one has not locked. No, I was not locked in Officer R's patrol car, but I. He. Officer R is here in attendance. Yes. But I started littening because I had nothing else better to do for a while. Or after a while, Stockholm syndrome set in and I started to enjoy it. I've enjoyed the podcast and listened while Richard took enough time to get his doctorate degree where he could have used that time to have earned two of them along with all the money I've lost on horrible betting advice. You can cash it all in now, though, on that. On that Team parlay.

[B]

Team parlay. That one of them involves the Washington Nationals. Good luck.

[C]

Yeah. Coming in last.

[B]

I know.

[C]

Okay. I have had to put President Hinckley's 2005 gambling talk on repeat daily. I do have a question. I know my wife is not in labor and if she was, it would be a miracle. Like Abraham and Sarah with Isaac. Sounds like we have a standard of truth funeral to attend soon. It's very exciting.

[B]

Yeah, that's going to be our other. Our other side business. The standard truth fun funerals just go there. Crack jokes at a funeral. We throw T shirts out.

[C]

Rudy sent us an email.

[B]

Hey. Hey. Here you go. Here's a Willard Richards with a lot of guns. He.

[C]

If he was here, he would have loved that.

[B]

Willard Richards. Oh, just, I don't know, making stuff up. I have.

[C]

I have searched with the yoohoo website and I have not found any answers to my question. Did answer some questions about a brown substance that states it's a liquid, but nothing about the gospel. Yes, I. Oh, boy. You're going to know about that chocolatey flavor.

[B]

Chocolate flavor.

[C]

Yeah, it did answer some questions about brass as a blah, blah, blah. AI something something rescue Zelda's core president. 10 minutes episode. My question is with Hiram Smith being a co prophet, did Hiram ever receive revelations that were written down, or did Hiram ever have a vision or see Jesus Christ? Do we have any record of him receiving any of those? Thank you again for your podcast. It has strengthened my testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith. And I hope Richard can read this. Okay. All right.

[B]

All right, Rudy. He waited till the end to get the shot in.

[C]

Yeah. Seriously, Best of health.

[B]

Yeah. Boy, Richard turned on you real quick. That's a good question. I mean, obviously Hyrum was present for some of the foundational visionary events, like with the School of the Prophets and of course, the dedication of the Kirtland Temple. So he's certainly present for some miraculous events in which angels are appearing, in which they. They are going to see a vision of the Savior after he is made essentially the co. Prophet of the church by Doctrine and Covenant, section 124. You. We don't have one that we know of after that time period where. Okay, now he's saying that he has this vision. He certain preaches a lot of sermons. And Joseph makes a particular point to say that you need to pay attention to what Hyrum has to say. Hyrum, in one case, you know, feels very strongly that the Latter Day Saints should vote for a particular candidate for a state office. And it was a candidate who was from the other political party that most Latter Day Saints didn't vote for. And so Joseph Smith said, well, I'm not telling the saints to vote for him, but I've never known hire him to have a false revelation. So, I mean, you certainly get something like that. I'm sure that Rudy was writing and saying, please tell me more about American politics. But you do get, I mean, one of. One of the clearest statements we get about what the word of wisdom constitutes comes from Hiram Smith's teaching. Hyrum Smith is going to teach in. In 1842. He's going to talk about the word of Wisdom. It's a very lengthy. Sermon that's published in the Times and Seasons, and I'll just read part of that. And, you know, I figure the kind of people we have here, anyway, it's a good reminder, you know, let's be careful driving home. Know what I'm saying? I mean, anyway, the Lord has told us that strong drinks are not good. Who is it will say that they are when the Lord has said that they are not? The man who says, I can drink wine or strong drink and it won't hurt me is not wise. But some will say, well, I know that it did me good, for I was fatigued and feeble. And on a certain occasion, it revived me. And I was invigorated there by that. And that is sufficient proof for me. That sounds like a user right there, doesn't it?

[C]

No, every.

[B]

Alcoholics like you don't understand. I need this.

[C]

Yeah, it invigorated.

[B]

It invigorated me. But they probably. Yes, yes. Yeah. So look, I drove a taxi cab. I'm well aware there. It's great that people will call a cab when they need to.

[C]

Yeah, it's very good.

[B]

Also, the kind of people who are getting into a cab late at night from a bar really need the cab and they tell you all kinds of things and. And sometimes vomit in your cab. Anyway, back to Hiram Smith. It may be for you, but it would not be for a wise man. For every spirit of this kind will only produce a greater languor when its effects cease to operate upon the human body. But you know that you are benefit. Yes. So does that man who has mortgaged his property know that he's relieved from his present embarrassments, but his temporary relief only binds the cords of bondage more severely around him. The Lord has not ordained strong drink for the belly, but for the washing your bodies. And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and it is not good for man, but as an herb for bruises and all sick cattle to be used with judgment and skill. Tobacco is a nauseous, stinking, abominable thing, and I am surprised that any human being should think of using it. How do you really feel, Hiram? He's very. Hiram, you know, was not employed by the Philip Morris Company, obviously, For using it for an elder, especially to eat or smoke it. It is a disgrace to him. He's not fit for the office. He ought to first learn to keep the word of wisdom and then to teach others God will not prosper the man who uses it. And again, hot drinks are not for the body or the belly. There are many who wonder what this can mean, whether it refers to tea or coffee or not. I say it does refer to tea and coffee. So there you have hiring Smith as a prophet, interpreting the word of wisdom, revelation, saying this is exactly what it means. And it's very interesting. We've talked about this before on the podcast, but so long ago that none of these people were listening and most of them were not even in labor yet that certainly not Rudy, right? Well, Rudy, probably, I don't know, but that even today you have people trying to justify. Well, it says hot drinks. It doesn't say tea and coffee. Even though You've had prophetic utterance interpreting what it means from the very beginning, from the time that Hyrum Smith is the co. Prophet of the church, saying, what does hot drinks mean? It means tea and coffee. And of course, then you tell people, well, I don't think so. Well, I don't know what your think. So is the. The revelation is two prophets. Prophets are the ones who interpret what that revelation means. When someone says, yes, but I read something, I think something different. That's literally who Hyrum Smith is talking about right now. The person who's like, well, it's different for me. You don't understand. No, I do understand. And what's different for you is not following the prophet. That's the problem is that you're trying to justify rather than follow what. What is being taught. He goes on to say that there are many who wonder, what can this mean? Whether it refers to tea or coffee or not. And I say it refers to tea and coffee. Why is it that we are so frequently dull and languid? It's because we break the word of wisdom. Disease preys upon our system. Our understandings are darkened, and we do not comprehend the things of God. The devil takes advantage of us and we fall into temptation. Not only are they injurious in their tendency and they're baneful in their effects. They. But the importation of foreign products might be a means of thousands of our people being poisoned at a future time through the advantage that an enemy might take of us. Right? So, you know, look, the fact that it gives control, it reminded me, and this is going to be really off target. I mean, unlike the remainder of what we've been doing here today, of a sermon that Brigham Young gave in Tooele, which it's stunning that anyone even knows it, right? But he gives this sermon in Twill in 1867 in which he talks very clearly about the word of Wisdom. And you can tell that he's really playing off of part of what Hyrum Smith taught in that. That, you know, why are people trying to say that it should be this or it should be that? This is. Again, this is not the whole talk. This is just some of it. We say to the saints, observe the word of wisdom. Will you please do it? It's interesting he asked that question. Some of the sisters and some of the brethren will say, well, tea and coffee isn't mentioned in the word of Wisdom, but hot drinks. As if this doesn't refer directly, perfectly, absolutely, definitely and truly to that which we did drink Hot. Brigham Young's mode of speech is he does this a lot, where he'll use adverbs or adjectives over and over and over in a row to make the point. You can tell that it's a speaker's cadence. That's why it's really cool to study these. This is the most boring thing.

[C]

Yeah, it is. Yeah.

[B]

Sometimes I realize as I'm talking, and then you look at people who are just.

[C]

Brigham's cadence. Go on.

[B]

When you study the original, you know, shorthand notes of his sermons before they're edited, you get a lot more of this kind of natural speaking style. And what you get from him is that he loved to make points like this. He loved to make points by making a point, by exaggeration. For instance, when they're talking about Joseph Smith being a prophet in the council of 50 minutes. See, I mentioned it. Sorry. Yeah, just tune it out. We talked about the council 50 minutes. People are talking about, you know, receiving revelation to guide them. And Brigham Young makes this comment about. And Joseph's in the room. He makes this comment about Joseph receiving revelation and says, you know, that he would not be troubled if Joseph Smith were to Translate the Bible 40,000 times over. And every time he did, it would be different in some ways each time, because when God speaks to us, he always speaks to us according to our current light and understanding. So for Brigham Young, like, the whole idea of continuing revelation was, of course, it will never be the same because God is revealing, and then he reveals a little more, and then he reveals a little more. And, you know, he didn't have to say 40,000 times, though. Right. He could have easily just said, like, four times. I mean, he could have said twice. If Joseph translated the Bible twice, it would be different each time. No, if he did it 40,000 times. And so you get a kind of a style that he had. You know, much the same way you got from Heber C. Kimball. You know, he. He used the potter. Potter, because he was a potter. He used. He used the idea of the potter's wheel and. And God forming the clay. He used that analogy all the time. He uses it over and over and over again. It's. If you're listening to a Heber C. Kimball sermon, it's kind of like listening to Elder Uchtdorf talk about planes. It's like, I'm sure you're sitting there. And he's like, I saw the cockpit. And. And then with. With Elder Kimball. Yeah, he's. He's like. And then there was this potter. Oh, Here we go. Tell us more about the form and the clay. You know, hopefully no one listens cynically to conference. But. But here Brigham is. Is deliberately doing that, right? So he's annoyed that you have people in 1867 saying what doesn't say coffee and tea, even though for. For 25 years already you've had a prophetic interpretation of means coffee and tea. But it doesn't say that. So. So Brigham's annoyed. And he says, as if it doesn't refer directly, perfectly, absolutely, definitely and truly to that which we did drink hot. What does it allude to? What did we drink? Hot tea and coffee. When we made milk porridge, it was our food. We didn't wash it down red hot the way we drank down tea. It alludes to tea and coffee. I said to the Latter Day Saints at the annual conference of April 6, the Spirit whispers to me, for this people to observe the word of wisdom, to let tea and coffee and tobacco alone, whether they smoke, take snuff, or chew, let it alone. Those who are in the habit of drinking liquor, cease to drink liquor. This is what the Spirit signifies. This is just as strong as I requested the people to observe the word of wisdom, the question arises between the people at large and your humble servant. Does the Spirit whisper this, the spirit of the Almighty, or does it not whisper this? If the Spirit of God whispers this through your leader and the people reject it, what will be the consequence? Do you know? Darkness. Blindness of mind with regard to the things of God. You will cease having the spirit of prayer, cease to have the spirit, and the spirit of the world will increase in proportion until those people that disobey will apostatize. That will be the result. I know it will be said that it is hasty that we should call and hearken anyone to improve upon and reform our lives. As long as 33 years ago last February. Is this anything new? Is it strange? If any man comes and tells you that you must have a little tea and you must have a little coffee, by the same rule he will say, let me have a little liquor or a little tobacco. Let me have a little of this and a little of that other that prevents my rights and claim to the spirit of revelation until you go into darkness. Now there is not a Latter Day Saint but what has the privilege of asking the Father, in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior, if this is true. If this is true, and if the spirit of the Lord that has whispered it to Brother Brigham, requesting the Latter Day Saints to observe the word of wisdom, all of you have this privilege from the apostle to the lay member now to ask yourselves, I could reason more upon this if I had the strength to do so. I thought I'd share that. I wasn't planning to originally. Obviously, I didn't have Richard create a chart over it. But I thought, you know what? This is a great teaching moment. Because what Brigham Young's trying to say is if you disregard the counsel of the prophet because you think that it's minor, because you disagree, because it doesn't really fit in with your life or your lifestyle, it doesn't actually matter whether it's a big thing or a little thing, that the very action of disagreeing with the prophet will take some light out of your life. And what will replace that? And what he says is, you know, it'll just. It'll be small. You start off with, well, I'm not going to follow the prophet. He doesn't. He doesn't know how much I need tabacky. You know, I mean, whatever it is. And then you see the light go out of them. And I think all of us probably know somebody who we've watched apostatized from the church. And it was not, you know, I mean, in some cases, it was overnight, literally, and they apostatized through sin. But, you know, like Bill. Like Bill the adulterer. Yeah. But in other cases, it was more tragic because it was. So it was actually a gradual thing where they. They disagreed with the church on some political or social position that the church had. And then that festered, and then it became more. And then it became more. And then it became the most important part. And the next thing, you know, they didn't think the prophet was a prophet anymore. And I think that's. So one of the things that we need to do as members is we really need to be. We really need to be humble to the point where when the prophet teaches us something, Brigham Young said, you can go get an answer from God yourself. But so many people don't even do that. They just say, well, that's not what I think politically, okay, but you're part of the kingdom of God on earth, right? That should matter more to us than any political viewpoint, should matter more to us than any social viewpoint. It should matter more to us than anything. It's the entire point. When Jesus says that you have to put your hand to the plow and not look back. This is the pearl of great price that you're giving up everything for. And when people are nitpicking, whether or not this is Warm enough tea? You're not putting your hand to the plow you're desperately looking for, as Elder Maxwell said, that summer home in Babylon. Right. I mean, you're looking for a way to not really. To not really consecrate. And so this is not the same thing as being a sinner. We're all sinners. Right? Like if this was a conversation about the fact that, oh, what if you're not perfect? Well, then we're all going to burn in Calvinist hell because we're all not perfect. Right. But there's a very big difference between sinning because we're imperfect and arguing that the sin that we're committing isn't really a sin because the prophet is wrong about what he's teaching. Those are two different things. There's. There's, oh, my goodness, I can't believe I made a horrible mistake in my life and I fornicated. And there's. I don't think fornication is a sin. Those are not the same position. Right. One is a recognition that there are commandments and that I break them because I'm a sinner and, and I need to repent and I desperately need the Lord Jesus Christ. And then there's the other where I'm, I'm actually trying to excuse the sin by claiming that the teaching itself is wrong and therefore I don't have to follow it. That's great.

[C]

Do you want to do the last.

[B]

I think we. I mean, at this point we teased it. It was no Tertullian.

[C]

It was. No, nothing is.

[B]

Yeah, nothing. Yeah, well, frankly, even Tertullian's. No, sometimes even Tertullian wasn't Tertullian.

[C]

All right. The, the image is correct.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

All right. Okay. So, I mean, we're, we've, we've stayed out of order. We've reached our.

[C]

Yeah, we're out of time, actually.

[B]

We're out of time, but we're going to go over time because that's what these people paid for.

[C]

Not the people that. Yes, well, there's actually a lot of people that.

[B]

Yeah, there's all the people who, who are regretting every moment that they've been here.

[C]

They're like, they said, 8.

[B]

Your long national nightmare continues. Yes. Because we're going to, we're going to talk a little bit more. And this comes from someone submitted a question asking you who are heroes from church history? Do you have a hero from church history? I did not prep him for this.

[C]

I mean, so, I mean, he doesn't

[B]

have a Chart for this. Yeah.

[C]

So. So one of my. My favorites is Mary Fielding Smith. And so, yeah, she's. She's pretty incredible.

[B]

She, you know, let's clap.

[C]

Let's give a skim for Mary Fielding. It's one of those things. There were a lot of people that suffered in early church persecution, and she suffered as much as anyone suffered, and she was faithful always until the end. And there are a lot of people, and I don't judge any of them that apostatized over threats and persecution. Who knows what I would have done if the super bowl was at 10. I might not go to church on Super Bowl Sunday.

[B]

Right.

[C]

Who am I to judge?

[B]

What do you mean, might? Right.

[C]

But. But I mean, we. We honor a lot of people and. But she. She endured all of it and was faithful always. And we don't talk about her almost ever. And so anyway, she. She's mine.

[B]

So I'm. There have been multiple people from churches. I could obviously talk about a lot of people, and there are incredible saints who came before us, who sacrificed. I always think about in my. And I know I've mentioned it before, but I think about my own family tree, my great, great, great. I'm going to get the number of greats wrong, and then my mom's going to be so mad. Renee is a stickler for the, for the genealogy, I got to tell you. She knows exactly how many grades and as well. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, a number of greats. Grandma Olive Boyington, her brother was John Boyington, the. One of the original members of the quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And he apostatizes in 1837 from the Church after the Kirtland Safety Society collapsed. And it's an incredible thing to think. Just think about this. Your own brother is a member of the Quorum of the twelve. He comes to you and says, I know firsthand for myself that Joseph Smith is a fallen prophet. He is not a prophet. How much would that affect your testimony? And she says, nope, and follows and stays faithful. And until it kills her, her and her husband will die at winter quarters following the prophet out of the country. And so I always think about when I'm having a difficult time, I think about that I stand upon the faith of these men and women who came before me. And she's someone who. I am a member of the church. You're all here again. That's probably not the best thing. You're listening to what we're having to say on this podcast because in the face of very easily being able to walk Away when everyone else was walking away. When her own brother, who's an apostle, walks away, all of Boyington, all of Hale is her married name, says, no, I still believe, and continues to put her foot in front of the other to demonstrate that faith. There is a woman whose faith and her tenacity in faith that most people don't know. Someone here may be related to her. And so then you'll be like, yeah, I do, you know, but most people don't. When the Saints left Nauvoo, there were still a lot of things going on. Most of the Saints leave Nauvoo in part because Thomas Ford, the great giant air quotes, great governor of Illinois, has lied to the Saints and told them that an army is on its way to destroy them if they don't leave immediately. And that's the reason why they leave in the middle of winter. And he brags about this in his book. He lies about it like, they were made to believe that an army was coming up. This had the desire to face. Very proud of himself. And, you know, I'm really sad that he died penniless and alone. But that. That sounds.

[C]

That was.

[B]

Those harsh. My gosh, I've got a problem with. There's a few people from church history that I struggle with. Thomas Ford is Thomas Ford. John C. Bennett.

[C]

Fornicating Fornicator.

[B]

Yeah. John C. Bennett. Thalassus Hurlbut.

[C]

I've got the dandometer.

[B]

Yeah. And we can't talk about that because then I'll spend 20 minutes talking about how much I hate John C. Bennett and then we won't even get to this. But some Saints, however, that were already in Nauvoo were designated to stay in Nauvoo because they were still trying to sell some of the property. But plus you had thousands of converts that were converted in Europe that were making their way. Well. Well, when they were getting on their ship in England, you know, the Saints were still there in Nauvoo. So, I mean, think about that. You, like, show up, no one's there, like, oh, you missed the party. We're all in Salt Lake. It's like so much better. But so. So they have, you know, a fair number of Saints that stay behind to try to help make this transition. And they're trying to sell the rest of the church's properties. They're trying to help some of the poor that are arriving be able to afford to build wagons. And so one of the families that was designated to stay behind was the Anderson family and the anti Mormons Allowed to by the great Governor Ford decided that they were not happy that some, that several hundred Latter Day Saints and look, 20,000 leaves, right? But there's still several hundred that are there and they're publishing things in newspapers like all of them have to go. Anything that walks like a saint or talks like a saint, anything that is mongrel or whole blood like a saint has to leave immediately or they will be forced to leave. And so the mob threats are getting worse and worse and now there's a real population disparity. Before there were so many Saints, there was actually pretty hard for the local anti Mormons to attack Nauvoo itself because there's 20,000 of them and there's like, you know, and one of them is, you know, Porter Rockwell, so be careful. And there's, there's, you know, such a disparity. But once most of the Saints leave, the Saints who stay behind, well, they are in real danger because there are thousands of antagonists and they are publishing regularly in newspapers. We are going to exterminate the Mormons who are left. And so eventually they do actually attack Nauvoo. And over the course of three days in September of 1846, thousands of anti Mormons with cannons lawlessly begin shelling the city and eventually invade the city and begin killing people, trying to drive those few remaining Saints. I mean, think about the level of depravity here. You already know they're leaving. Almost all of them have already left. They are no threat to you anymore. But the hatred is such that they want them gone now.

[C]

Well,

[B]

this, this battle of Nauvoo, as it is sometimes called, is really more of a massacre. And Emmaline Anderson had her husband William, who was leading one of the the troops trying to defend them, and her 15 year old son Augustus went out to, to fight. And according to at least one account of this, Augustus told his mother as he was leaving, I've got to go and protect you. And the other Saints mother. And he is killed by a cannonball that is shot into Nauvoo by these anti Mormons. Her husband similarly is shot and killed. And so here is Emmaline Anderson. The reason why her husband and her son are dead is not because she's not following the prophet. They are literally following the prophet. That's the reason why they're in, they're not in Nauvoo because you know what, we don't really want to move to winter quarters. We like it here. No, because they were designated to stay and help and they were faithfully doing that. And they were trying to defend the lives of other Saints. And this horrible catastrophe happens. They're murdered. And there's even a non Latter Day Saint who writes a letter commenting on the massacre that takes place in. In Nauvoo and these people that are killed and. And even he is like, look, the Mormons can't be here, but this young boy went out to defend his mom and was murdered. We would be. We would be shouting his name from the rooftops and throwing parades for him if it was anything other than a Mormon. And so life's pretty tough for her after that. I'd love to tell you that she was in a picture of health, but no, she actually had tuberculosis, which was pretty common back then, which progressed at different levels. A lot of. They called it consumption back then. And so she was very sick. Well, she writes a letter in 1849, and that's what Richard has up here. She writes it from Council Bluff. She eventually makes it way. So the church is already in Salt Lake and has been for a couple years. She makes her way out to Council Bluffs, trying to save up enough to go. And she writes this letter to her brother, who's not a member of the church. It's her brother, who's just younger than her and is clearly someone that she's tried to share the gospel with before. And she. She tells him how hard things are, that there are days that I'm not even able to. To. To get up and do anything because I can't breathe because the consumption has been so bad. My arthritis, my joints hurt so badly that I'm not able to move. And of course, she talks about how much she misses her husband and her son. She says, I have not married since the death of my William, and I do not feel as though I could live even but a small bit. Even though. But a small moment. There's a small branch of the church here. I have a little house of my own with my two children or two daughters. We have suffered many privations in this place, in this life, but it will be made up to me. There is one thing, one request in particular that I would love to make of you and I would beg of you now. Earlier in this letter, she said, I wish you would believe. I want you to know that this really is the gospel. She's bearing her testimony, the whole letter. And apparently her family has cut her off because it's been multiple years since they've responded. And she keeps saying, I keep sending letters and no one responds. I send letters. And no one responds, please respond. And they don't. As far as we know, we don't have any evidence correspondence. She says, I would make this one request of you. I beg of you, please grant me this, this one favor. Some one of you please take and find out all of the names of all of our progenitors as far back as you can. And send them to me in a letter. This do, and God shall reward you for it. Then she goes on to say, I'll write you later when I can. Emmaline Anderson. This is a woman who has faith. She has lost her husband and her son. She is not healthy physically. She could easily say that God has abandoned her. And the entirety of this letter is a declaration that, that the gospel is true. And the one last request she has is send me our genealogy. And you know exactly why she wants that sent. Because she wants to be able to do the temple work for those people, women like this, whose faith is not in any way related to. To the circumstances of life around them are the heroes to me from early church history. And when I am struggling, when things don't work out well for me, I will read a letter like this or read something from Amanda Smith, or read something from Wilford or Phoebe Woodruff. And it buoys me up in a way to say there are people who have gone through far, far worse things, and they are certain that Jesus is the Christ, that this is God's church, and that eventually, just like she wrote there, eventually it will be made up to her. So she's one of my heroes from church history that nobody knows about, who has had a profound impact on my life from the time I first read that letter, because her faith was not dependent on the circumstances surrounding her. It didn't matter how horrible her trials were. And so I want to cultivate the same type of faith that I'm going to believe in trials, and I'm going to believe when I don't have trials. I'm going to believe when it makes sense, and I'm going to believe. When I don't make sense, I'm going to believe. That's what I'm going to do. So that's what I would say. And we're so far, over time, 95 people in here asleep. Okay. Okay. Very good, Very good.

[C]

There's.

[B]

That chair is the most likely to be asleep. So. But thank you so much for joining us. We apologize for the, you know, for those listening that this is probably a little echoey. We apologize to the people in person that they got to see our face. But thank you so much for joining us.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.