S6E12 The Book of Enoch Part 3 (TERTULLIAN!!!!)

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast

S6E12 – The Book of Enoch Part 3 (TERTULLIAN!!!!)

March 19, 2026

Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat (BYU Associate Professor), Dr. Richard Leduc
Purpose: Help Latter-day Saints better understand their history and increase faith through historical context, wit, and accessible scholarship.

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Episode Overview

The main theme of this episode is a continued exploration of the Book of Enoch—specifically, how early Christian thinkers like Tertullian, Athanasius, and Augustine interpreted its stories, and what their approaches reveal about changing Christian attitudes toward angels, giants, and the handling of biblical apocrypha. The hosts also tackle a mailbag full of doctrinal and practical questions, ranging from in-vitro fertilization to faith, knowledge, and anti-Mormon arguments, all while infusing a healthy dose of humor and March Madness basketball banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humor, Church Culture, and March Madness (00:29–07:56)

• The episode opens with hosts joking about their podcast March Madness bracket and playful banter over church callings—including the (now half-joking) aspiration to join ward Sunday School presidencies as a path of least responsibility.
• Quote (03:10):
  “I was happy when I was the second counselor at a Sunday school presidency and it may or may not have had something to do with the fact that I didn't have to do very much.” — Dr. Dirkmaat
• Richard’s “Fun with Numbers” Segment (05:10–07:23):
  • Shares stats for NCAA brackets with a self-imposed time limit, e.g. the 11th seed/6th seed matchup is practically a coin toss.

2. Mailbag: IVF, Doctrine, and the Question of Souls (08:12–29:29)

IVF and Church Policy

• A listener (writing from a hospital while his wife is in labor) asks about Church doctrine relating to IVF, embryos, and when the spirit enters the body.
• The hosts stress that, according to the Church Handbook, IVF is allowed but should use genetic material from the husband and wife, not external donors. All other guidance is for couples to proceed prayerfully.
  • Quote (15:42):
    “This technology includes artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization. The church discourages artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization using sperm from anyone but the husband or egg from anyone but the wife. However, this is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of a lawfully married man and woman.”
  • The hosts confess that the Church has no revealed position on when the spirit enters the body. Historically, LDS leaders, like Brigham Young, had personal opinions (e.g., spirit enters when child first moves in womb), but none are official doctrine.
  • Empathetic recognition: Miscarriages, stillbirths, and IVF create heartfelt doctrinal questions—answers are often left to speculation and individual guidance.
  • Quote (27:02):
    “We don't have a revealed doctrine about those things... The goal here is to say, what has the church taught about it? Not what do I feel about it, because those are not the same thing.”

LDS vs. Evangelical Views on Abortion

• Dirkmaat explains why anti-LDS groups sometimes accuse Mormons of being “pro-abortion”:
  • Unlike most Trinitarian Christians, Latter-day Saints believe in a premortal existence, so the “moment of conception” is not when a soul is created.
  • This nuanced approach makes the LDS stance seem permissive to evangelical absolutists who see any abortion—with no exceptions—as murder.
  • Quote (21:32):
    “If only you knew what I knew about the church... That’s the implication. The only reason, you poor stupid missionary, you still believe is because you haven't read what I've read.”
• The hosts mock such oversimplifications as ineffective ways of “winning friends and influencing people.”

3. Faith, Knowledge, and “If Only You Knew” Objections (29:48–50:59)

Responding to Anti-Mormon Arguments

• Missionaries serving in Utah describe hearing “if you knew what I know, you wouldn’t believe” arguments from ex-Mormons or anti-Mormons.
• The hosts dismantle this line of thinking:
  • Many of the world’s foremost Joseph Smith and LDS history scholars (including themselves) remain active, believing Latter-day Saints despite knowing “everything there is to know.”
  • Faith is rooted in spiritual witness, not exhaustive knowledge.
  • Quote (34:11):
    “The vast majority of the people who literally have read everything that this person's about to show you... are all believers.”
  • They relate personal experiences fielding these arguments and emphasize the power of spiritual conviction over “secret knowledge.”

Missionary Uplift

• They encourage missionaries and young listeners:
  • Not having all the answers does not equal weak faith (Peter didn’t grasp the Resurrection at first!).
  • Even the uneducated can know the Book of Mormon is true through spiritual confirmation, not academic mastery.
• Memorable Moment (44:30):
  “Whatever person’s like, ‘Oh, if only you knew what I know.’ There are people who know that and thousands of more things, and they believe.” — Dr. Dirkmaat

4. The Book of Enoch, Early Christian Theology, and Tertullian (52:18–66:22)

Recap of Enoch & Early Christian Fathers’ Views

• The Book of Enoch (an influential Jewish text around the time of Jesus) offered a dramatic reading of Genesis:
  • “Sons of God” (angels) took “daughters of men” as wives; their offspring were giants.
• Tertullian's View (54:35):
  • Tertullian (c. 150–250 AD) took these stories as literal—angels lusting after human women and bearing giants.
  • Quote from Tertullian:
    “...the sons of God, having decried the daughters of men that they were fair, took themselves wives of all whom they elected... not naming the angels adulterers, but husbands while they take unwedded daughters of men...”
• Shift in Interpretation
  • Athanasius of Alexandria and Augustine propose more metaphorical readings:
    • “Sons of God” are the righteous descendants of Seth, “daughters of men” the offspring of Cain—intermarriage diluted spiritual nobility.
    • Augustine ties the “tragedy” to free will and blames “worldly women” (reflecting his notorious anti-feminist streak).
  • Key Insight:
    Many early Christian doctrines emerged from non-canonical texts like Enoch and the Infancy Gospels—these apocryphal works shaped tradition even when not accepted as scripture.

Teaser for Next Enoch Episode

• Next installment: How Joseph Smith’s revelations and the Book of Moses’ Enoch narrative impact latter-day doctrine and understanding.
  “Let me tease one more thing. Next time we're going to talk about how Joseph Smith learning about Enoch in the Pearl of Great Price in his revelation, the Book of Moses, will impact some of the things he teaches early on in the church.” — (64:57)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On abundance of “dead time” comments in Sunday School:
  • “You know, there are even people who will actually start their comments saying, ‘I don't really know what I want to say,’ and then proceed to say it.” (12:06)
• On being called out in class:
  • “Like, oh, man... I gave out a response that was, you know, a rambling, incoherent response. At no point did you even approach anything that resembled a rational thought. I award you no points. And may God have mercy.” (14:34)
• On faith and anti-Mormon jabs:
  • “The people who knew Joseph best then and now are the people who love Joseph now.” (46:18)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro and March Madness Banter: 00:29–08:12
• Mailbag – IVF and Church Doctrine: 08:12–29:29
• Faith, Knowledge, and Anti-Mormon Arguments: 29:48–50:59
• Book of Enoch: Early Christian Fathers (Tertullian, Athanasius, Augustine): 52:18–66:22
• Teaser for Next Episode & Closing: 64:57–66:22

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Tone & Style

The episode is marked by friendly mockery, unguarded conversational asides, and candid expressions of faith. The hosts balance scholarly depth with jokes about church culture, missionary life, and their own foibles. Even when addressing complex or sensitive topics (like IVF and church doctrine), they keep their tone approachable, empathetic, and honest.

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Conclusion

This episode delivers both theological depth (tracing fascinating early Christian debates) and practical, faith-affirming discussion for modern Latter-day Saints. It’s especially valuable for listeners curious about:

• How early Christians interpreted strange Old Testament narratives,
• Where the LDS Church stands on modern reproductive technology,
• How to maintain faith amid doubt, controversy, or anti-Mormon critique,
• And how historical context shapes the ongoing interpretation of scripture.

Listeners finish with both a teaser for the next deep dive into Enoch and encouragement to persevere in faith—no matter how much “hidden knowledge” someone claims to wield.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Foreign. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. Really excited to get into whatever this is. Part three, Tertullian's Last Ride.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's kind of like. Well, so it's. I believe it's some form of Enoch,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

the Book of Enoch, Part three. That's right. It's a part three. Yeah, for sure. We've been teasing Tertullian since January.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, we actually had multiple people sign up for our March Madness bracket, which, you know what, frankly, if someone were to be listening to this the moment it dropped in the morning, they'd still have time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, we do drop this at 6:00am Mountain Time. And so plenty of time, I think you have three and a half or so hours to get your bracket in

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

before tip off, and then everything locks.

[Additional Commentator]

And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But we did have several people who made up fake names like Tertullian's Teas, Tertullian's Bracket, things like that. So we certainly are aware that

[Additional Commentator]

people

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

that cry out, they have to have the answer to this, and we have thus far not been giving them the answer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We have not delivered.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've since then received much better questions, things that people actually care about. See, I forgot that people only cared about Enoch while they were literally actually reading in that portion of Genesis.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I have been trying to tell you for years that the only reason anyone does anything for any reason ever is to make a smart comment in Sunday School. Otherwise, what's the point? So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, speaking of a smart comment in Sunday school, we are fresh on the heels of the church changing its policy for women to serve in the Sunday School presidency.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There you go. Way to bring that in. Look at that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I mean, so now I gotta, I gotta, I gotta. I gotta level with some of the guys out there. A lot of you have aspired to the Sunday School presidency position in part because you didn't think you would have to do very much. Now, look, now there's some of you that are amazing, but I know some of you because I know me.

[Additional Commentator]

And I know that I was happy when I was the second counselor at a Sunday school presidency and it may

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

or may not have had something to

[Additional Commentator]

do with the fact that I didn't

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

have to do very much.

[Additional Commentator]

I think that basically every male Sunday school presidency in the church is going to get replaced by an all female Sunday school presidency.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

My understanding of the second counselor in the Sunday school presidency was primarily to ring the bell between second and third hour. Was that your understanding when they had the bells?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We had one when I was a kid. And, and, and it was a big deal ringing that bell so that you knew.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, it absolutely was. It was like a hundred dollars.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I can only imagine that your. Was it your in law who would jangle the keys?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That was my, that was my grandfather.

[Additional Commentator]

Your grandfather? Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, because if he would jangle the keys, I would like to believe that he would just go out in

[Additional Commentator]

the hall and press that button and just let it go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Someone's like, and this is why the most spiritual thing that ever happened in my life.

[Additional Commentator]

And he's just like, it's just going in the background.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. The story there was that when fast and testimony or any sacrament meeting would go along, my grandfather on occasion would pull his keys out of his pocket, hold them up, point them toward the bishop from the pew and shake them as to say, let's wrap it up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I mean, think about how much easier it would be to say wrap it up if you were pressing that buzzer.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's true. Now look, I've thought it, but I've never, I would never. I adhere to certain social norms that my grandfather. My grandfather was a convert to the church. Grew up in a different time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We did an entire bonus episode on Getting ready for March Madness. And then as right as we're about to record, Richard's like, hey, I have to present something on March Madness. I'm like, no, you don't. We talked for 30 minutes about it in a bonus episode that we deliberately dropped so that people could listen to this episode.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Look, what I'm asking for is, you know, I'm trying to, you know, develop my own brand and I love statistical analysis and I, you know, I'd like a segment called Fun with Numbers and I promised not to go more than two minutes and, and if I do, then you just cut me off.

[Additional Commentator]

Mid time starts now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, well, there's a couple of things, Garrett. Now for the, for the three and a half hours that people have to be able to get their picks in or make adjustments, picking the winner is worth 320 points. First of All. So that's. That's really the key. If you can get at least half of the final four, you're. You're ahead there. Now there's a. There's a Ken Palm rankings. I highly recommend that you go and take a look at that online. The average is finishing in the top five in the Ken Palm rankings over the past decade has won the championship. So that this year is Duke, Arizona, Michigan, Florida, or Houston with Iowa state. Oli. Now, no one has been one has been outside of the top 25. And it does just so happen that BYU is 23. So it is possible. Now, these two stats I think you'll find especially interesting as I have about a minute left. The first is, you know, you often think about the 125 seconds. You think. 38 seconds. You often think about the 125 matchup. Now, the 125 matchup, the. The 12 has a 35.6% chance of winning, but every year there's an 85% chance of one of those winning. The real secret, though, is in the 116 matchup. Am I out of time?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You were out of time 10 seconds ago.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, all right, we'll just. We'll just leave that on the 11 seconds.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, just tell everybody.

[Additional Commentator]

Just tell everybody what they're supposed to

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

pick so they can not gamble on it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So the 11 seed has a 51.8% chance of winning every. Every time. So it is literally a coin toss between the 11 and 6 in. In every tournament. So if you want to pick up sets, 116 is where it's at. It's literally a coin toss.

[Additional Commentator]

Is it?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And that's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Is that. Is it. Is it just by happenstance that it just so happens that BYU is an 11 6?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, yeah, I mean, BYU, it's. BYU has an essential. I mean, they have better odds than that. But over the last decade, 11.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Not according to the gamblers, they don't. In fact, BYU, of all of the teams, has the worst of all the favored, better seated teams. Not counting the 8 9, because that's meaningless, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Their BYU is only favored by a point and a half. No one else is favored so little in an advantage position.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Over the last decade, by the way, 80% of the time, the number one seed wins. So that was. That's overtime Garrett on numbers.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All right, well, we've teased Tertullian enough, so we've got to get through this mailbag so that we can get to Tertullian.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That sounds good. We should start off with an email about Ivf we'll get through that pretty quick, right? I mean, that's not.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No one has any strong feelings about that.

[Additional Commentator]

That'll work out well.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Let's go. All right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hi, Garrett and Richard. We are litters to the podcast and we're writing to take you up on your promise to. That you made on the show that if someone emailed while in labor, you'll talk about their question on the podcast. Well, currently at the. We are currently at the hospital while our baby girl is on the way. So we figured this was the perfect time to write. Our question relates to the church's position on this.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This kind of seems like he's writing it, though. This is a. This is a violation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I think the spirit of the law exists here.

[Additional Commentator]

Okay. I'm just.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We've just been inundated with babies and we got a lot of these men

[Additional Commentator]

who are not helping at all during labor, but using that time to write an email.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so no, it's. It's the Post World War II Covid and the standard of truth. Those are all baby baby boom events

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

we are seeking with our podcast email reading to follow President Oaks's mandate increasing families. We were doing it before he said it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's true. That's how in line we were. Our question relates to the position on conception and embryos in the context of ivf. We went through fertility treatments and we currently have five embryos frozen. We plan on trying to have all of those babies in the years to come, if the Lord is willing. Because of that experience, we've been thinking more deeply about how Latter Day Saint doctrine approaches questions about embryos, implantation and the beginning of life. We'd love to hear your thoughts on a few things. The historical development of the Church's guidance regarding reproductive technology like ivf. What doctrine or teachings we have about when the Spirit enters the body and the historical context for that. How those ideas might apply to modern IVF practices where many embryos are created and some are ultimately discarded. It raises a broader question for us about how embryos created through IVF fit within Latter Day Saint moral theology, especially since the Church has clear teaching about abortion but no explicit doctrinal stance on unused embryos. We'd really enjoy hearing your thoughts on the podcast whenever you get the chance. Thanks for the great show. Stand by for a photo photo of evidence of the. Of the girl's birth. Colin and Marcy. I figure I covered a lot of this in my fun with numbers bit on the tournament, but. But maybe you found a couple of extra things to share just a couple of things.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, first of all, this is an example of a question that wouldn't be

[Additional Commentator]

read at all if it wasn't for the labor, in part, because, I mean,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

while there's some of that, that's history. I mean, most of it is current and modern doctrine. And I'm not a 21st century, you know, or late 20th century historian. And so I' I, I have less,

[Additional Commentator]

I have less usefulness to you. The, the more modern we get, the more I'm just like the guy in your Sunday school class who just comments on things but doesn't know what they're talking about.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Everybody has one who just is always

[Additional Commentator]

going to raise their hand, but the

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

things that come out of their mouth, like, just don't even relate to what

[Additional Commentator]

is being talked about.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, that's why Alma had his song that he sang.

[Additional Commentator]

Okay,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

we were talking about the Garden of Gethsemane. But I mean, I guess I can

[Additional Commentator]

see, you know, I mean, everybody, everybody knows somebody who's just, if, if there's

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

a dead time in that lesson, they are commenting. And you know, there are even people who will actually start their comments saying, I don't really know what I want

[Additional Commentator]

to say and then proceed to set.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's like, well, you, you can always wait to raise your hand until you know what you want to say. That's, you know, that's the next option.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We've all got caught up in the air with the basketball and I'm trying to find some leg to throw it off of.

[Additional Commentator]

I see. So I thought, I feel really strongly about this because they're talking about whether or not there were giants of the Bible. And so I go to throw my hand up in the air because I

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

know I care about it, but I don't know what I care about about it.

[Additional Commentator]

And so pretty much calls on me right away and I'm like, and. And I have to decide whether to

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

try to throw it off of my

[Additional Commentator]

opponent or just come down and take the traveling violation. Is that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's exactly right. Yeah, we've all been there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Speaking of which, our, you know, Sunday school presidency in my ward, I mean, I'm not saying I hope they get replaced by an all female Sunday school presidency, but I am saying that in class, you know, several times Matt has, you know, given me a call out where I'm busily trying to not engage in the lesson, and it'll be like,

[Additional Commentator]

hey, Garrett, what do you think about that?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, oh, man, that happened to me.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That happened to me on that happened to me on Sunday. I was. I'm sure I was praying silently to myself or. Or reading scriptures or. I certainly wasn't doing something else, but somebody asked me about Jacob's dream, but I didn't hear any of the question. And I was caught with my proverbial spiritual pants down.

[Additional Commentator]

Garrett, but did you just make something up?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, 100%.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so last week, he doesn't listen to the show, so I'm fine to give him a call out, but a friend of ours, Blake, he.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, I. I wasn't really paying attention. I mean, I was. But I was also trying to respond to my boss's email, and. And he was like, garrett, do you have any. You have any insights on this with Joseph Smith? And I was like. And I'm sure I gave out a

[Additional Commentator]

response that was, you know, a rambling, incoherent response. At no point did you even approach anything that resembled a rational thought. I award you no points. And may God have mercy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Have mercy on your soul.

[Additional Commentator]

Well, so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But with the question, obviously, this is an important question. We have covered on the podcast a couple of times this idea about when the spirit enters the body. And, you know, the. The easiest questions for me to answer are, we don't know. It hasn't been revealed. And, you know, the church has, you know, in its handbook. I. I know that the people writing in know this. I'm.

[Additional Commentator]

I'm now talking to the rest of the audience, you know, because not everyone, you know, we've got at least some missionaries living, you know, listening to us

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

who haven't, you know, memorized the fertility treatment section of the handbook.

[Additional Commentator]

I mean, they. They've done a lot of studying, but that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That one, they have not.

[Additional Commentator]

Although, you know, maybe they're in the branch presidency somewhere. They're like, I've got to. I'm gonna know this. I've got to know this like the back of my head.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

This is what it says in the handbook. The pattern of a husband and wife providing bodies for God's spirit children is divinely appointed when needed. Reproductive technology can assist a married woman and man in their righteous desire to have children. This technology includes artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization. The church discourages artificial insemination or in vitro fertilization using sperm from anyone but the husband or egg from anyone but the W. However, this is a personal matter that is ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of a lawfully married man and woman. And that's basically the extent of it. So clearly the church is saying that reproductive technology can assist. They are clearly saying that in vitro fertilization can be part of that. They do put some guidelines to what that is or not. But as, as you kind of said in your email, in your email. Well, it doesn't seem like there's a clear explanation of, of some of the other parameters. I mean, it certainly believes it's ultimately left to the judgment and prayerful consideration of a lawful married man and woman. Now one of the things that you'll be most surprised at, and we've talked about this before, that one of the attacks that is often made against our church by, you know, some strong willed evangelical Christians is that Mormons are pro abortion. Now you've thought a lot about what you are and what you aren't. As you've talked of members of other faiths. My guess is most Latter Day Saints have never considered themselves to be pro abortion.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I didn't until I went to General Conference and I saw that van driving around with all the pictures on it and the people with all the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was attacking us for that, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh yeah, no, yeah, absolutely.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And that goes back to the classical Christian belief and understanding that none of us. So first of all, a Christian is approaching this from a completely different worldview than a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, your average Christian. I mean all Christians, no matter whether they're Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, they all believe that the spirit is created at the, at the moment of conception, but it didn't exist before then. So there is no such thing as a pre mortal life. So for people who believe that life is literally created, the spirit, not just cells, but the spirit itself is created at the moment of conception. You can see why they feel religiously that all abortion, regardless of circumstance, is wrong. And look, I know that not every Christian feels this way. I mean, right now there's someone typing email. I have a friend who's a Presbyterian and he doesn't think that abortion. I am well aware that there is a wide range of beliefs on abortion, which is a great way to start this show. Richard, are you not vetting these emails?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You sent it to me and told me to read it. I said, you want me to start, do you want me to start with the missionary one?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I thought that you would read it so poorly that we didn't get a chance to talk about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I read it as poorly as I, I mean, look, and that's grading on an insane curve. I read it very poorly, especially since one of the main words is just Letters ivf. I messed that up several times.

[Additional Commentator]

Yeah, that's true, that's true.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did all I could.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But you can understand the reason why some Christians hold abortion to be so wrong. Because they believe that the moment of fertilization is when the life is actually created by God. Because there is no premortal life in, in Christianity outside of the Latter Day Saints. And so they deem all causes for abortion to be sins. And any argument that you put up saying, well what about the response would be there is no justifiable reason to take even to the point. Again, I know most, not every Christian believes this, but I'm trying to explain the people that are protesting outside of General Conference. They would hold that, even the position that, you know, the church holds that in cases of rape or incest or the mother's life is in danger, then it can be a matter of prayer. They would say none of those cases justifies abortion. And because they literally believe abortion is murder, our church of course sees abortion, and you know, President Nelson once talked very passionately about it, certainly sees it as a great moral evil in part because nearly all of the abortions that take place are abortions that are elective. They are not the exceptions to the rule. They are, they are elective birth control, essentially. And the church does have a really strong position, which is the reason why it's so surprising when you see someone driving around a van or outside of the conference center saying, you Mormons, all you believe in is abortion. It's like I literally, of the things on my bingo card that you would attack me for, that I'm pro abortion would not be one of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what it's interesting about that I've often thought about as it relates to business generally, I'm fairly pragmatic, right? Like what's, what's the best thing that we can do given the circumstance. And I, I, I've often thought to that to be an insane miss where look, if you came to talk to me, I would agree with you on 99 of what you're talking about. And I feel like, I feel like there are so many people that you could more effectively speak to that are Latter Day Saints, then, then by doing it that way you're like, are you, your whole thing is just crazy. While I respect the idea of, of people that are trying to help the pro life movement, that is the most insane, less effective thing I could possibly imagine for somebody to do. It's crazy. It's literally the stupidest thing I've ever heard.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not a way to win friends and influence people.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Dale. Dale Carnegie. I think that's the one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was Dale Earnhardt.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Dale Earnhardt Jr. And senior would be offended. I just, it's like, look, you could come and talk to me and we would talk about, you know, I'm a pro life stance, like my, my shocker. My stance is the church's stance, but at the same time, like, we would have plenty in common to talk about and things that we could do and work on together. And you are picking fights on a fraction of a percentage. It's ridiculous.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But I think it, it serves as a vehicle for them. Right? So here's part of the reason why it's a vehicle, first of all, for their own followers. It demonstrates what they are arguing, the moral hollowness of these, you know, quote unquote, cults, Right? Because once you've adopted a position not outlined by a prophet, which is that, you know that there are, there's literally no exceptions, once you make that the most important part of your belief, then anyone who does not conform to that is a heretic to you, whether they're, you know, a Methodist, a Presbyterian or a Mormon, right? So, so you actually, once you've made that the most important part of your religious belief, you're then able to use that essentially as kind of the cudgel to, to beat people with, you know, in much the same way, the Shakers. And I don't, I don't want to offend all of our Shaker listeners. Three of them, four of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I just, I just got the. I just, I had a hiccup. Like, I thought that was so funny. I literally sounded like Otis from the Andy Griffiths Show.

[Additional Commentator]

Well, so

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Shakers, when they were talking with Latter Day Saint missionaries back in the, in the 1830s, 1831, 1832, one of the arguments that they made was that all sexual relations were sinful. They were all carnal, they were all evil. Well, that's a pretty tough sell, right? That's probably not your first discussion. That's probably as effective as me knocking

[Additional Commentator]

on the door and saying, you suppose God was God from all eternity. I will refuse that idea.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Someone, by the way, named their bracket that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's pretty good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So. But they wouldn't even listen to the Latter Day Saints because they would say. They would say, oh, are you married? And, you know, Parley Pratt's like, oh, yeah, yeah, I am married. You are committing the most vile of sins because you're a married man and you're going to come talk to us about holiness. Like, they wouldn't even listen because the Latter Day Saints were married. Because having no sexual relations ever, having no marriages ever, had become the most important part of Shaker belief. So when someone tried to talk to them who happened to be a married man or woman, they wouldn't even listen to what they had to say. Because if you aren't living a completely celibate and abstinent life, then there is nothing you can offer me. And I feel like that's part of where that goes. I mean, as it relates to their question. I mean, it has not been revealed. Now, I say that and you're going to have. I already know. I'm going to have 75 people email in and tell me what they think and what they know. Every time this topic has come up, we've had 75 people email in and tell me what they think and what they know. I'm only telling you what the church's position is. And then I can talk to you about history. But if you think, you know, you need to recognize that that really is just thinking that, you know, the church does not have an established position. They don't. And you can find people all along the range. Life is precious. But when does the Spirit enter the body? Brigham Young believed it was, you know, when, when the mother could feel the child moving in the womb, that's when the Spirit entered the body. Now, did Brigham Young declare, that's our

[Additional Commentator]

doctrine and anyone who doesn't teach that is going to be excommunicated from the

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

church and someday they're going to invent IVF and then that'll be no. So historically, Latter Day Saints like, like most Christians had a very negative view towards attempts to end pregnancies because those things didn't exist as much back in the day. There was a lot of deliberate abandonment of children, actually, so that, you know, preachers in the 19th century spoke about that as well. But I wish I had a better answer for you, and I don't, in part because God hasn't revealed it. And, and that, I know, is frustrating. It's frustrating because we say, well, no, I want to know exactly what, what happens. This especially happens when people have miscarriages and stillbirths. And this is a, as I said before, this is a poignant thing for me because my wife had multiple miscarriages. And I know there's people listening who, you know, have had, you know, children who die and multiple miscarriages, stillborn children. I realize that this, this is a very painful area. But, but We. We. We don't have. We. We don't have a revealed doctrine about those things. And so we have speculation. We have all kinds of people who are more than willing to tell you that they know that's not the same thing as the church having it in their handbook. Right. That it's not the same thing as someone saying, I really feel strongly. And like I said, the last time we talked about this, I probably received. We probably received somewhere in the neighborhood of two dozen emails from people who. The entire point of them emailing in was to tell me that they did know. And I'm like, well, I'm not asking your opinion. I'm not presenting mine. The goal here is to say, what has the church taught about it? Not what do I feel about it, because those are not the same thing. So I wish I could give you a better answer, but in either case, congratulations. You somehow snuck past our sensors by having him write this email when, in fact, it needed to be her.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That. That was very well done. And to call you, Andrew. Very well done, Andrew. Nice to work.

[Additional Commentator]

Appreciate it, dad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thanks, dad. This next email comes to us from Elder Hadsell. H A D S A L L. Do you think that's pronounced Hadsell? I hope so.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, it could be like, what do you think it is? Like a long A on it. So it's like Hazel

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

heedsall you, depending

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

on where he's from.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's from Oklahoma. Oh, yes. So actually the next two emails come to us from Oklahoma. Absolutely no connection to me loving Oklahoma.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Interesting. He's wearing an Oklahoma State shirt right now. Just so everyone knows.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hashtag GoPokes. Hashtag Second round of the NIT.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They beat us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, some missionary in the Pittsburgh Philadelphia Mission made an illegal copy of the podcast drive and trade it, and it traded hands until I received it in the Utah Salt Lake City West Mission from my greenie, Elder Tatum. A lot of anti people that we talk to in Utah. So this is actually one of my favorite things that people say. A lot of anti people we talk to in Utah say if you know or if you knew what I knew about the church. You love that one, Garrett. Isn't that one of your favorites?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's probably. I mean, it's. I don't know if you're trying to rage bait me right now, but I

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

feel like you are.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, okay. It is absolutely one of the ones that will trigger me in part, because what is the implication? The implication is I know so much about this that my knowledge precludes me from having A testimony and faith. And the only reason, you poor stupid missionary, the only reason you still believe is because you haven't read what I've read because if you had, then you wouldn't believe. And this is used all the time by non members, by former members, towards members, where they pat them on the head and say, oh, you don't even know what I know. As if that's where faith comes from. Right? That faith comes from. Just, oh, I just, I read something and I just know a lot more than you do. And you know, I very well remember I've talked about it before. On my mission there was a counselor in the bishopric of an area that I was in that left the church mid counselor of being a counselor of the bishopric. I mean, Richard having been a counselor

[Additional Commentator]

multiple times, has threatened to leave multiple times. Especially when it was the, you know, when it's January and you have to have every youth interview done in like two weeks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was, it was one of my favorite. I've mentioned this before. This is back, we're back to activities committees again. We had an elder Quorum president and when I was in the Clearfield ward and his, his wife was the activities committee, he was the elders Quorum president. And he's like, I don't feel like you've really been tested until you're loading hams into the back of your Honda Civic questioning your testimony. It's one of my favorite lines.

[Additional Commentator]

That is a great one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so the, the, the question about this is something that does upset me because the implication is the only reason why anyone believes is they're not educated. The only reason you believe that Joseph Smith is a prophet is because you haven't studied enough about him. And if you did, then you wouldn't believe. This is a patently false argument. It's actually a demonstrably false argument because if you were to list the people who know the most about Joseph Smith, and I mean academically, the people who have PhDs, the people who studied Joseph Smith, the people who've published on his life. Sure, there are non Latter Day Saints who published about Joseph. There are also those who are you who are not active or used to be members that have published about Joseph. But the vast majority of that list of the people who literally have read everything that this person's about to show you, the vast majority of them are all believers. The vast majority of them. So if the vast majority of

[Additional Commentator]

the

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

believers or of the people who know the most about this are believers, what does that show? It shows that this idea that if only you knew what I knew you wouldn't believe. And I could say, and I have before that I may living. I'm a living example of this, that I have studied and read all of these things about Joseph Smith for decades of my life now published multiple things, not just in church venues, but in academic venues that have no affiliation with the church. And I'm certain that Joseph Smith was a prophet. So when that person says, oh, if only you've read what I've read, you wouldn't believe. Well, first of all, they don't understand where belief comes from. Second of all, it's the height of arrogance to believe that you're the only person who's ever read anything. And that's the reason why you've come to the conclusion that you've come to so elderly. I would just ignore it because the reality is. It's a cop out that people make as a way of making themselves feel better that they've abandoned the faith that they once were a part of. And I'm not saying they don't believe. I'm sure that they really do believe that and they could probably point to examples. Yeah, well, I had my friend read it and he left the church. Okay. But if it was really as great as it was, then the people who know the most, the people who've read the most, which is far more than whatever you got off your TikTok channel, they would also be leaving the church over it. And they're not. And so what does that mean? It means it's a faulty analogy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I had this. So I've got, you know, my. Our sons got their papers in. Right. We should be hearing where Kai and Parker are going in the next couple weeks. It's very fun. But some of Parker's friends have been coming over and we've been doing kind of a mission prep kind of a deal. And there was a sweet young lady that was over and was talking about her, about her dad who's left the church and who was trying to pull her away from the church as well. And it was. I was filled with this blind rage and the similar argument was made by him that she expressed to me. And one of the things that was so funny to me is then the one that she pulled out of the things that if I only knew or if that she only knew. And the one was that Joseph Smith just stole the Book of Mormon from dreams that his dad had. Do you know what I mean? It's like, so, yeah, the Lehi's. Lehi's dream and it's. And my response was, okay, all right, so where. Where'd the rest of the Book of Mormon come from? Okay, we got four chapters where. That's all right. Four. Fantastic. I was. I was. I was. Similarly, my. My dandometer was through the roof because there was that claim. And then the one that they pulled to was the stupidest of things that I've ever heard anyway.

[Additional Commentator]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well. And that's. That's the. The unfortunate aspect is that as sophisticated as people believe that they're being, when they. When they say, well, I know things that you don't know well. Well, knowing things that someone else doesn't know is not actually where faith comes from. You don't have to be the. A scholar to feel the Holy Spirit speak to you. You just don't. And so it demonstrates, first and foremost, especially, I mean, for people who are making claims about having some other kind of faith that they are rejecting, where faith actually comes from. Faith comes from the Holy Spirit speaking directly to your soul. And it's not something that comes. Because I've read a lot now. Reading a lot can help improve your faith and you can expand your faith. But that's not the same. It's not the same thing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He grew up in Oklahoma, and I feel I've heard every anti Mormon argument possible. But on my mission, I've studied up on a lot of church history, so I'm familiar with our history. The church is true. But such and such podcast is so boring. The name was changed to protect the innocent or. Yes, well, this. No. You mentioned another podcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Sorry.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Additional Commentator]

Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Don't mention that one Such and such. Yes. Thank you for mixing my love of. Of gambling. See Gordon B. Hinckley's April 2026 conference address. So 2026. He didn't talk about gambling. So that's part of your problem. It was 2025 or 2005.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Excuse me. Both of those dates you gave were also wrong.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They were. Every date was wrong. So he says 2006. I meant 2005. President Hinckley's talk from 2026, I imagine, would have been incredible.

[Additional Commentator]

Just.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was great.

[Additional Commentator]

He had a really clear view of the other side of the veil.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Yeah. Yalls podcast. So he is from Oklahoma now I can. I can verify with. With the. Y' all has really helped strengthen my testimony. Serving in Utah is chill. It's where they send missionaries with real testimonies. Thank you for giving us AMM to fight the anti is clearly the most effective way to do missionary work. But in all seriousness, thank you for all that you do. Even Richard. There you go. No question. Today just absolutely swarmed with emails with emails. Hyping up the premium and too busy glutting yourself on the profits thereof. I'm a red blooded sooner but for Richard's sake, go Pokes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So wow, what a condescension he made.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This next is from Elder Tatum. I think Elder Tatum is his companion. Correct?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or he said he's greeny right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I'm guessing his greeny companion Elder Tatum. But this is a separate email from Elder Tatum. Hello doctor.

[Additional Commentator]

Look how united they are as a companionship. They both decided they would email in other p day.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well so this is request for Rick Duke's top five two liquid for 2026 March Madness which there's a bonus that they can access when I upload the Google Drive next month.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Which he will never do.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello. I'm gonna do it tonight. I'm gonna. They're all gonna be done tonight. All updated tonight. Hello. No, I'm not gonna do it. Hello Dr. Leduc. I listened to the podcast before my mission, before it became corrupted entirely motivated by filthy lucre. When I came out, I didn't have access to or even know if the podcast was allowed. I've since got my grimy hands on the on the band drive and picked up where I left off. I'm from Oklahoma, Go Pokes and I'm serving in the Salt Lake City West Mission and I'm loving it. I put my trainer onto the podcast and he absolutely loves it and we share inside jokes whenever we see each other. Richard is a gangrenous antelope, don't play poker with Jane, etc. We love listening to year old sport. I do think it is funny. Like you have a missionary coming out saying, guys, I'm telling you, take Virginia to win the championship.

[Additional Commentator]

The year that they lost, they lost

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

as a one seed. The only time. I can't wait to put my newfound love and understanding of gambling to use when I get home. I will use this podcast as my Grace Sports almanac in the event of going back to the future. That funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's a deep cut.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That is very funny. In all honesty, I can't thank you enough for how much this podcast has strengthened my testimony, which was dwindling after my call to Utah. But look, I imagine getting called to Utah, you're like oh come on. But you come here. A mission in Utah is awesome, right? All they do is teach and play basketball and eat like it's a dream.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, but the other email is also true. They're getting bashed every single day.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, you're going to get bashed, but

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

not the friendly, hey, I'm a Baptist,

[Additional Commentator]

and I think you're going to burn in hell. Bashing?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wait, was your. Was the bashing you got, was that friendly?

[Additional Commentator]

What I'm saying is the bashing that you get at Utah, because probably a

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

good, healthy percentage of those people are former members.

[Additional Commentator]

There is a bitterness associated with it

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

that is not there when you're just dealing with someone who believes that you're going to burn in hell.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That is fair. I've mentioned here when we. My son put a invitation for Christmas on. On our neighbor's door and they flipped him off. That. That's the next level of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But I feel like that was more about your son. It's. It's Christmas time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And they're like, I. I know you. I don't like you. You deserve this.

[Additional Commentator]

You know what? Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, they're like, look, invite me over

[Additional Commentator]

to your Christmas

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

hearing. Garrett so passionately bear witness of Joseph Smith and the restoration is beautiful. Sometimes it's easy to feel like not knowing everything about church history or the gospel can make it seem like you have a false witness of the truth. But hearing Garrett's testimony, as someone who has studied pretty much all of what there is to know when you know as much as Garrett knows, by the way, Elder Tatum, no, you do mention that, by the way, I actually love it in your testimony. You're like, look. And you. Not in an ego way. Just look, it was my job. It's my job to read these things. I promise you, whoever is telling you, whatever Gnostic is telling you that, I promise they haven't read as much as I've read.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, whatever. Person's like, oh, if only you knew what I know. There are people who know that and tens of thousands, thousands of more things, and they believe. So it's a. It's a false premise. The premise is knowledge would cause you to not believe. And I agree that a little bit of knowledge taken out of context, presented

[Additional Commentator]

in the negative way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We had multiple people commenting this week on our Facebook fan page that apparently I do a lot of voices without realizing that I do them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And you do a lot of voices. I assumed you realized it.

[Additional Commentator]

No, I. I think maybe it's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's schizophrenia. It's, you know, multiple personality disorder. But.

[Additional Commentator]

No, but, you know, one of the

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

voices that we, you know, we have is the, the smoker anti voice, right? Yeah, no, it's super deep.

[Additional Commentator]

Yeah, you gotta get. You gotta get all the way there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like when you read, if you've read the things that I've read and you wouldn't, you wouldn't believe that Joseph Smith brother, you know, it. It's a very rabbly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's like they've got a, A. They're smoking out of a hole in their neck is the way you make it sound.

[Additional Commentator]

They have a tracheotomy and they're like, yeah, that's exactly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, but it is something you hear a lot. And so, elder, look, as you go throughout your life, you're going to learn a lot more about the gospel. I mean, it was literally my job working for the Joseph Smith papers in the church history department. I'm now a religion professor at byu. All of my reading and writing, all that I do always is related to these things. And of course, there's still things that I find like, oh, I didn't know that there's another source on this topic or whatever. But when it comes to, oh, you just don't really know who Joseph Smith really was. I gotta tell you, all the arguments are just terrible. They're terrible arguments made by desperate people. Because the people who knew Joseph best then and now are the people who love Joseph now. Yeah, there's all kinds of bitter people. People get excommunicated for apostasy, excommunicated for adultery, and they aren't happy about Joseph. But the people who believe, the people who've had the Holy Spirit speak to them, that witness is more powerful than, hey, I've read a lot. And so, you know, in honor of this, I've actually been working on another AI generated song talking about people, you know, attacking Joseph. We'll. We'll release that at some point.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. Yeah. No, Standard of Truth Studios will soon be releasing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have two songs right now that are on Apple and Amazon.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, they are. They are. They're bangers. They're good. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Unfortunately, it wouldn't allow me to do the. It wouldn't allow me to do Standard

[Additional Commentator]

of Truth as the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I needed, like an actual author, so it's under my name, which no one can spell, so no one will be

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

able to find it. We should start a band. We. We would desperately love some band names that we could actually name the Standard of Truth AI band that then we can produce, have all of our music come out.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, Hard on the Paint is a pretty good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it is pretty good. I do like that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, should we, should we? Thank you, Elder. Thank you for your testimony and thank you for serving. And just remember, as rough as it seems sometimes when people are, are throwing out all kinds of anger like that, you're doing what the Lord has asked you to do. And there are answers to the questions that people pose. Not knowing all of them is no sign that you're not a believer. Peter knows that Jesus is the Lord, but can't quite come to terms with the idea of resurrection. I think it's pretty easy to say that Peter doesn't have all the knowledge that he needs since the resurrection is the essential aspect of the atonement. That didn't mean that Peter didn't really believe. He really believed. He just didn't know everything. And him not knowing everything was not a discount to his faith. So you don't have to know everything. There are people who can't read who can know the Book of Mormon is true, hearing a testimony of it because the Holy Spirit is what converts. And so you know you can defend your faith. I don't recommend bashing with people as your companion clearly is teaching you as well as, you know, sharing with you. You know, drives that were apparently pirated from other missions. But always remember that them that before us be more than them that be against us. We know how the fight will eventually end. And eventually the Savior, Jesus Christ returns. And eventually everyone will know what you know right now. And so always take everything that's said to you with a grain of salt. That's really how the Savior left even those who were crucifying him. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. If we truly understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ, if all the people persecuting you truly understood it, well, then they wouldn't say those things to you. And the great part about being a Latter Day Saint is knowing that this isn't the only chance that someone has that God has created a plan of happiness and mercy for every person who's ever lived on this earth. We don't have to believe in this dichotomy of everyone burning in hell who just didn't happen to know whether or not God and Jesus were homoosian or heteroose. We don't have to believe that because prophets have revealed from God that in my Father's house there are many mansions and so treasure the beliefs that we do have that make us different because they help us understand better the nature of Jesus. I think we're done though, right? We're ready to move on.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, yes. We are done. And in the next 10 minutes, let's. Let's finish the Book of Enoch.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, we're not going to be able to do that now. See, we keep. We're going to have to just start one where we don't even talk.

[Additional Commentator]

You certainly are going to be able to do by the numbers or whatever you just invented.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's fun with numbers and.

[Additional Commentator]

All right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Kids are talking about it.

[Additional Commentator]

I. I feel like I'm pretty clued in. I'm. I'm pretty hip to the young people's jive. And I don't. I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Do you. Do you think.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And I don't know.

[Additional Commentator]

I don't know that. I don't know that I've heard them use those terms, but I will. I'm going to take you at your word. Okay, so let's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Let's recap.

[Additional Commentator]

You're gonna have to go back and listen to the other Edict episodes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard's dying in his chair right now. If we had video, you would really love this part.

[Additional Commentator]

Also, if we had video, we would

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

never put out any more podcasts.

[Additional Commentator]

So when people are like, oh, why

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

don't you have video? Because this is the end.

[Additional Commentator]

This is the end of the podcast. In fact, if I ever do put out one that's video, you could rest assured it's going to end with. Thanks so much for your support over the years. This is our final broadcast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Anyway, we talked about especially some of the references in the apocryphal book of Enoch, right? This was this book that was in circulation at the time of Jesus, this Jewish apocryphal book that, you know, some Latter Day Saints even today, like, you know, try to make a really big deal out of it, even though it's not canonized now, there are some things certainly that are interesting in it, but we were talking about this whole discussion about the. The sons of God and the daughters of men and how the angels, right, that they. That this early belief and what was mirrored by the Book of Enoch was that angels lusted after women on earth and came down to earth and became, you know, the form of mortals and that they had children with the daughters of men, and that that's where these giants came from. That was all part of that Genesis discussion. And so we were talking about what early Christian fathers said. And what we basically demonstrated was most of these early Christian fathers believed that this was a literal thing, that the angels committed adultery with daughters of. The daughters of men, of mortal women, and that the result was these giants and that they taught the people evil. Right. So that's part of where it's another story of the fall. And we kept saying, well, we're going to talk about what Tertullian had to say. Richard. Richard had a lot to say about Clement of Alexandria because he felt like

[Additional Commentator]

he was getting the short shrift because

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

he wasn't Clement of Rome.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Remember that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, no, no, absolutely. But then you told me Alexandria is like the Layton of Utah, which is

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

a pretty big deal. It was much better.

[Additional Commentator]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There was no mosquitoes the second it hit 4:30 in the afternoon.

[Additional Commentator]

Actually, you know what? In Alexandria, there certainly were mosquitoes. There were mosquitoes probably at 1 in the afternoon, 100 degrees still mosquitoes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Tertullian is an early church father and he's, he's roughly between 150 A.D. and 250 A.D. again, you don't really know these. When he talks about this passage, this is how he interprets it. He says, for if it is on account of the angels, those, to wit, that whom we have read as having fallen from God in heaven, on account of their concupiscence after females, who can presume that it was the bodies already defiled and relics of human lust which such angels yearned after, so as not rather to have been inflamed for virgins whose bloom pleads an excuse for human lust likewise? For thus does scripture withal suggest. And it came to pass, it says, when men had begun to grow more numerous upon the earth, there were with all daughters born them but the sons of God, having decried the daughters of men that they were fair, took themselves wives of all whom they elected. For here the Greek name of women does seem to have the sense wives, inasmuch as mention is made of marriage. When then it says the daughters of men, it manifestly purports virgins who would still be reckoned as belonging to their parents. For wedded women are called their husbands, whereas it could have been their wives. In like manner, not naming the angels adulterers, but husbands while they take unwedded daughters of men. This is super convoluted. You can tell, right? This is him trying to figure out, how do you make sense of this? Now, what's interesting is one of the people who weighs in on this heavily is it is a very familiar source to some of our listeners. I mean, the ones who've listened to all the episodes and stomached through, you know, they've made it.

[Additional Commentator]

They've, they've, they've pushed through and they've

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

gotten to the other side. How about Athanasius of Alexandria? Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so he's. Yeah, no, he's, he's. Yeah, I, He's a big deal. You're right. I stand, I stand corrected. I'm actually currently having the crack research staff look at mosquito borne illnesses in Alexandria. I'll get back to you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't know what the number is, but it's going to be higher than Layton.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know, man. The, that lake effect, it feels like Delhi, India sometimes. It is, it is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was honestly one of Kai's first words when he was a. I mean, barely able to walk was gagito.

[Additional Commentator]

Because we grew up. Because when, when we had Kai, when

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

he was little, we lived in Layton. And I'm telling you, out there in, in West Layton, right off a Gentile, the moment that sun even begins to think about setting it. It's like Alfred Hitchcock wrote the birds

[Additional Commentator]

on the basis of being in Layton. When, when the sun goes down, the mosquitoes swarm.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, it's, it's really hard to explain how many mosquitoes there are. I mean, and, and they were even worse for. I feel like they were even worse at my house than they were at your house.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know, it appears that Alexandria has really eradicated a lot of the problems relating to mosquitoes. It's not as bad as you. As you would think. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now, do you have that adjusted for

[Additional Commentator]

400 A.D.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

so I, I have numbers from 1937, but I'll keep going back.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Additional Commentator]

I need you to keep going back until we're at 400 A.D. okay, well,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

so Athanasius is going to be one of the first. He's not the first, but he's one of the first that will actually propose a different explanation for this, for this verse, for this passage. It's also not a terribly helpful passage, but you can see him trying to find a different way of explaining it, because the angels having children with mortal women doesn't really fit into the worldview of the church. By the time you're in the, you're in the fourth century, so in the three hundreds. So this is how he tries to explain it. From Adam, Seth was born, who was the third after Abel. And from Seth, Enosh was born. He hoped to be called the Lord and God. Therefore the children born from him bear the name Sons of God, just like we also from the name of the master Christ are called Christians.

[Additional Commentator]

So, so he has invented a new

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

way of understanding this, that because Seth son Enosh wanted to be called Lord and God, that all of the children that were born to him were called sons of God. But what they really mean is sons of Enosh, right, Because that's his name. And the same way that we're called Christians, you know. Well, it's because we're followers. Oh, we're followers of Son of. So the race of Seth was segregated and not mixed with the race of Cain because of the curse which was laid on Cain by the God of the universe. But later, when they observed how beautiful the daughters of Cain's family were, they became enchanted and took them for themselves as wives, thus ruining their ancestral nobility. So he has given a completely different reading. The sons of God weren't angels. The. The daughters of men were actually, you know, from another lineage, from Cain's lineage. And that's the reason why it was a problem that they married one another. So you can see that this early attempt to try to make sense of what doesn't seem to make sense in the Scriptures. Now, St. Augustine, he is going to talk about this as well. So Augustine's pretty late. I mean, Augustine's. After Athanasius. I mean, at least most of his writings are. He is going to relate what goes on with this, you know, the, the giants and things to free will, because free will is a big. It's a big deal to him. When the human race, in the exercise of the freedom of will, increased in advance that there arose a mixture and confusion of the two cities by their participation in common iniquity. And this calamity, as well as the first, was occasioned by woman. So Augustine, not who you want to listen to, if you are a feminist, Augustine is very. Well, he blames Eve for literally everything. In fact, the actual concept of original sin, the way it comes down through the Catholic Church and then, you know, through Protestants, really. Augustine is one of the ones who. He is, you know, or Augustine, I mean, however you want to say it, he is. He is one of the great speakers on this topic. And so you'll notice right here the little diggy throws in, right. This calamity as well as the first was occasioned by woman, though not in the same way. For these women were not themselves betrayed, neither did they persuade the Mendocin. But having belonged to the earthly city and society of earth, they had been corrupted manners from the first. They were loved for their bodily beauty by the sons of God or the citizens of the other city which sojourns in this world. So this is, this is from Augustine's City of God, City man. And he's trying to say that this is essentially analogous, that the sons of God were righteous people and the daughters of men were unrighteous people. They were, you know, from the world. And that the tragedy is that the righteous men ended up marrying the unrighteous women or women who weren't believers. And so you do see this movement. But what's really interesting is that these early Christian fathers, many of them, I think because they're influenced by the Book of Enoch, this apocryphal book of Enoch. I'm not talking about what's in the pearl. Great price. You'd have to go back to the first and second episodes to know that, that that's how they interpret this. So there are actually a lot of things as you go through Christian theology that you find are influenced by books of scripture that never actually were canonized as scripture. We talked about this once before, although probably it was only on the premium

[Additional Commentator]

side

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

when we talked about the infancy gospels of Jesus. Right, right. And how, you know, even, even the fact that there is a St. Anne. St. Anne, that, that, that you is. There's a wonderful church in, in Jerusalem, St. Anne's Church, Ann, is by one of these apocryphal circulating books that was never included in the scriptures. It demarcates the mother of Mary as Anne. And so the very fact that there's this belief of this holy woman named Ann comes from this book that's circulating that never became scripture. You actually see this in a lot of places. And you do see this interplay with this apocryphal book of Enoch and with early Christian theology because it is clearly widely read. The problem is the Book of Enoch contains doctrines that are going to be rejected by the early Christian church. And as you saw there, you know, with both Augustine and with Athanasius, they're trying to find different explanations than the idea of angels, you know, cohabiting or marrying women as to be the reason. Well, we're out of time. But let me tease one more thing. Next time we're going to talk about how Joseph Smith learning about Enoch in the pearl of great price in his revelation, the book of Moses will impact some of the things he teaches early on in the church. So I know you had to run a long way to get there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that's interesting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know what? Maybe also a little bit more Tertullian, I think.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I have been able to find some things on 3200 BC malaria outbreak. So I'm between 1937 and 3200 BC.

[Additional Commentator]

I need to triangulate. I need you to triangulate. I need you to have. Your margin of error in this poll is 5,000 years. I need. I need a little bit more triangulation than that. And you want to have a segment called by the Numbers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Fun with numbers. By the Numbers. The kids aren't into that, but all the kids are into Fun with Numbers. And I will give malaria statistics on Egypt as we hear about Joseph and the Book of Enoch.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All right.

[Additional Commentator]

Sounds good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thanks so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.