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- [00:02]
A
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor. Foreign. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmot, and I am joined by my friend remotely hiding somewhere in Arizona, probably because of the balmy 100 degree weather in the early, early spring. Dr. Richard Leduc.
- [00:57]
B
Hello, Garrett. Thanks so much for, for having me back. It's a real pleasure. I have no update for you in the NCAA tournament because I am currently. Well, I'm in, in Australia. I'm in Australia. I'm in the down under of the United States.
- [01:14]
A
Are you visiting our friend of the show, Wendy there?
- [01:17]
B
I am, I am, I'm visiting her. We're going to go to a Magpies game with her, with her husband. An Australia League football. Magpies.
- [01:27]
A
But I thought he hated the Magpies. That was the whole point.
- [01:30]
B
He did, but we're going to come together on that.
- [01:32]
A
Okay.
- [01:33]
B
And I, I, I, I'm, I'm somewhere in, in Kenya. You're somewhere in Spanish Fork. I don't have the update. We're pre recording this. Very sad.
- [01:42]
A
So Richard's about to head off on his, you know, the odyssey that so many of you helped contribute to, to getting people to the temple. Richard's going to Kenya. Well, I'm saying about to, he, he, as we're recording this, he hasn't left. Boy, this is like a weird like Inception thing going on.
- [02:01]
B
Yeah, this is, yeah, this is a dream within a dream.
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A
Yeah. So Richard's currently actually in Arizona, but when you hear this, he's actually in Kenya. And Kenya and Arizona not the same
- [02:12]
B
place, it's my understanding.
- [02:14]
A
Well, you know what? I've never seen Arizona and Kenya in the same room together.
- [02:18]
B
Yeah. Coincidence. I will be able to report back if Arizona and Kenya are the same place very soon.
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A
I mean, what if Kenya just has like, you know, has, you know, puts glasses on as, as its disguise and when it takes them off, it's Arizona.
- [02:33]
B
That's true. It's possible.
- [02:36]
A
Is there a worse superhero like, you know, you know, disguised than Superman's, you know, the Clark Kent? Like, I've got glasses on. I'm just a terrible reporter.
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B
So you.
- [02:50]
A
I'm the man of Steel.
- [02:51]
B
Look, you say that, but over the last two years I have become blind. And. And now I wear glasses all the time. And, and there have. I've been back to Idaho and I have heard from people, oh, I didn't recognize you. Now, is it because I'm fat and bald and old? Possibly.
- [03:09]
A
I mean, let's put that in the maybe pile.
- [03:13]
B
Look, is the last time they saw me, I was 18. And now I look like, you know, I've, you know, been, you know, been really run through the. Run through the wash. Yeah, possibly, but. Or is it just my glasses? I'm saying it's possibly just my glasses.
- [03:28]
A
You know what? That's what I'm going to say, too. When people are like, oh, dude, what happened to you since high school? I'm going to be like, well, I'm not wearing glasses, but I am using a different type of hairspray. That's clearly the reason why.
- [03:43]
B
Rather, rather than assuming that they think that I died and was floating in a lake for six months, just bloated and dead and awful, I'm going to assume it was my glasses.
- [03:55]
A
Yeah. Well, that's good. But I mean, even as a kid when I watched the Superman movies, I was like, obviously, he's Superman. Like, he's just wearing a suit and has glasses on. It's literally the same face. Like, so. So anyway, so Richard is. Is, you know, leading this incredible Sweetwater rescue group to take, you know, well over 100 saints in Kenya to the temple there. And thanks to so many of your donations for that.
- [04:30]
B
Yes, indeed.
- [04:31]
A
And he'll report back to us with some special stories, I'm sure, and we'll, we'll share some on there. So we, so we do have to pre record some of our stuff because the, the possibility of amazing Internet is, is less than it. Than it could be. It's probably more than them thinking that you're different because of your glasses, though. It's probably. We're probably somewhere in that sweet spot. But to be safe. So. So what I would like to do is to report gloating how much better my bracket is than his, but I don't know that yet. But don't worry, if in fact I end up winning, I'll let everybody know.
- [05:10]
B
Yes, and I am, I am bringing the. My, my Starlink out to Kenya so that maybe we can record from Kenya or possibly we won't be able to. And you will get an update on how we did in the tournament and in May.
- [05:25]
A
Yeah, sometime in May, you'll be like, oh, yeah, the NCAA tournament happened. And then yeah, then we'll. Now, if we both lose, we won't talk about it.
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B
Never bring it up again.
- [05:36]
A
Yeah, it'll. People be like, hey, whatever happened with the brackets? And I'm talking about. I. What are you talking about? Brackets for a shelf in my house. I don't know what you're talking about. That's what it is.
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B
Asking about the brackets for the shelf.
- [05:50]
A
I have so many things that are on my shelf. You know how people put things on their shelf? Yeah, but I have to put brackets on. I've got to put some reinforced beams on my shelf so that I could. I could keep maintaining. Anyway, let's. Let's go to the mailbag.
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B
Let's jump into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag. First things first. I have loved listening to your podcast. I started around two months ago, and I'm almost done with season four. Oh, my gosh. That's. That's really cruising through. Sadly, I just transferred areas in my mission, and I lost a missionary, so. Yeah. Is this missionary work?
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A
Are they just listening to the podcast?
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B
Well, maybe they're in, like, Rio and it was Mardi Gras, and they couldn't go out of their apartment for a week or two. You know, maybe that's what it is.
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A
Probably says where he is. Where does he say he is?
- [06:38]
B
Oh, he's in the Philippines. So maybe he was in the Philippines and it was Marty Gras.
- [06:43]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe it was a maybe. Maybe we need to have a talk with this Mr. President. Why don't you get Elder Tay on this and figure out what's going on?
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B
I'll get. I'll get to the bottom of this. Not friend of the show, but hopefully friend of mine. Elder Tay, I will. I will try and write your names out, but I'm scared I would butcher them. So I'll just stick with Richard. That is safe. So they just went with Richard, not even with Garrett. Right. Because Garrett's terrifying.
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A
Garrett. Both my first and last name. If you're trying to be safe, neither one of them help.
- [07:16]
B
So, yeah, fortunately, Richard is an old man's name, and people do know how to spell that. As I mentioned earlier, I'm a missionary currently serving the Philippines, and I'm 18 months in. Oh, there you go. I absolutely love your podcast, and it's helped my testimony of our church grow more and more. You guys are amazing. I wish I had premium, but as I'm a missionary, I have no way of getting it. I have heard you guys talk about giving it to missionaries for free, though. I can't tell if that's a joke, but if it's legit, I would love to have your partner.
- [07:49]
A
What kind of morbid sense of humor does he think we have? And we're willing to give this for free to the missionaries. Oh, wait. Psych. There's no way for you to get it, but you get it for free if you get it. I mean, that's. Yeah, yeah, that's.
- [08:01]
B
That's actually. That sounds actually like something we would say.
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A
Maybe we would. I. We did just say. We're not even to talk about the brackets. We lose. So maybe. Maybe he's the one that's.
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B
We are not men of impeccable character. Once again, thank you so much for all you. Dave. Thanks for all you do. I'm going to Australia.
- [08:23]
A
I figured that you went straight Irish leprechaun on me.
- [08:33]
B
There was a comedian. I can't remember who it was, but she had this joke that, like. No comedian. Jim Gaffigan. Dave Chappelle. No comedian is as funny as your friend saying a word slightly wrong.
- [08:47]
A
Like, well, you know, I. I know a comedian who I was listening to. It was kind of like an interview that he was doing because he's someone who does voices and stuff like that. And he. He. That he actually spelled this out. And it's a huge part of. Of his act, of his humor. And it was having someone mispronounce a word that's a common word, using it incorrectly or saying it incorrectly is a constant gold mine of comedy.
- [09:24]
B
It's the funniest thing ever.
- [09:26]
A
Just like you said. This comedian said, like, your friend saying something wrong is the funniest thing you've ever heard in your life, which is why we're still doing this podcast. Anyway, back to what he said.
- [09:38]
B
Well, so for Elder Maxwell in the Philippines, we've started working with Google Workspace. We had somebody that sent in an email and said, hey, here's a couple shekels. Why don't you just get Google workspace? Because then you can do all the missionaries in one instead of multiple Google
- [09:54]
A
Drives, which was incredibly kind.
- [09:56]
B
Incredibly kind. We have that set up, and we have missionaries being added to that. Part of the issue is that we have to set up a Google. This is very nerdy and boring, but we have to set up a Google group.
- [10:07]
A
This counts as fun with numbers. It counts. Don't. No takesies, backsies. I haven't said one number. I just said one. You did. You said the drive.
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B
All right, we have one drive on the.
- [10:25]
A
On the.
- [10:28]
B
On the Google Group. Anyway, so for missionaries that aren't in Google Groups, this is causing some confusion. And so you have access to it if it says that you do through the Google Group. But we. Anyway, this is fairly complex and fairly
- [10:43]
A
boring, but if you're a missionary and you get. And someone submits your name and you get that invite, the link that you'll get will actually give you an error because Google Groups is basically blocked for the missionaries. Right, but the Google Drive isn't, and the group gave you access to the drive. So don't worry about the error. You know, Elder Maxwell, when you get it, just go to your drive and it'll be there.
- [11:05]
B
And that was fun with numbers. All right, next email. That's very funny, Garrett.
- [11:10]
A
I.
- [11:11]
B
That's. That. That's great. This next email comes to us from Amy. I think we have all heard the line that is given to console grieving mothers who lose infant children, that you will be able to raise your children during the millennium if you stay righteous. Is there any documentation of apostles or prophets stating this will really occur? Thanks for your incredible podcast, Amy.
- [11:36]
A
Right. So obviously this is a very difficult topic and one that is, you know, very personal for people, and I'm sure that there are people listening who have lost a child. So I. I hope that I handle this delicately and appropriately. This teaching does come directly from Joseph Smith, and it's certainly been reiterated by other prophets and apostles over the course of time. But I think maybe just for our purposes, I'm going to share just one. Well, a couple, and then maybe move on, I don't think. It's certainly not a surprise to people that Joseph Smith thinks about the loss of infant children a great deal, or young children a great deal in his life, frankly, as I've talked about before on the podcast, some of the greatest doctrines of the afterlife and the resurrection that we have ever received, some of the greatest teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, they come in funeral sessions, they come in sermons, or they come in the response to the loss of life. And that's because Joseph Smith believes that there's no way of assuaging the horrific sense of loss of someone who's lost someone. That hole that is inside your soul that. That just can't ever be filled, it seems. But. But the one thing you can do to. To provide whatever mitigation you might be able to provide is to teach true doctrine, to teach what it is that is going to actually happen in the next life. And Joseph felt that pretty strongly. He felt it strongly enough that when confronted with unexpected death, he often shared things that people. Maybe not. I mean, look, that's where the King Fallett sermon. It comes in the wake of the death of this young elder in the church, whose family now had to deal with all the difficulties that were about to happen without him. Someone who'd been faithful. A tragic death. You have Joseph Smith teaching, you know, that. That some little children are. You know, that they are too kind and too precious for this wicked world, and that that's the reason why they. They are taken in infancy. But the question is relating to whether or not parents who lose their children will be able to raise them again as children in the millennium. Now, now, of course, that seems an exception to what we talk about, right, because we know that all spirits are adult in their form, right? That. That your child may look like your child, but they are adult spirits in their form. Well, then how then could a child be resurrected and be ra. Its parents in the millennium if in fact it, you know, is adult in form? So that earlier statement, right, is of that these children die in their infancy, as Joseph said, that they may escape the envy of man and the sorrows and evils of this present world. They were too pure, too lovely to live on earth. Therefore, if rightly considered, instead of mourning, we have reason to rejoice as they are delivered from evil and we shall soon have them again. So. So there he's responding to the. The death of a young child. But it's. It's actually in that King Fallet sermon where Joseph says, will mothers have their children in eternity? Yes, yes, mothers, you shall have your children, for they shall have eternal life, for their debt is paid. There is no damnation awaiting them, for they are in the spirit. But as the child dies, so shall it rise from the dead and be forever living in the learning of God. So Joseph is or is going to make the statement that it. That when they're resurrected, they're resurrected as children. It will still be the child in the same precise form as it appeared before it died out of its mother's arms. Now, in the history of the Church, it chronicles this conversation that Joseph has between Joseph Smith and Leonora Taylor about the loss of a child. And it's another sister who's relating this conversation in conversation with the prophet Joseph Smith. Once in Nauvoo, the subject of little children, the resurrection was broached. I believe it was Sister Leonora Cannon Taylor's house. She had just lost one of her children, and I had lost one previously. The prophet wanted to comfort us and he told us that we should receive those children in the morning of the Resurrection just as we laid them down in purity and innocence and that we should nourish and care for them as their mothers. He said that children will be raised in the Resurrection just as they were laid down, that they would obtain all intelligence agents necessary to occupy thrones, principalities and powers. The idea that I got from what he said was that children would grow and develop in the millennium and that mothers would have the pleasure of training and caring for them which they had been deprived of in this life. Now, Joseph F. Smith, you know, Hyrum Smith's son and also prophet. I mean, it's not just Yusuf Hyrumsmith's son, but also, you know, the prophet. He has many of his children that die. Joseph Smith. I mean, he loses nine children in basically a 30 year period. And as you can imagine, it is, it is gut wrenching to him. When his firstborn child dies. This is what he wrote. Her name was Mercy. Oh God only knows how much I loved my girl. She was the light and the joy of my heart. The morning before she died, after being up with her all night, for I watched for her every night. I said to her, my little pet did not sleep at all, sleep all night. She shook her head and replied, I'll sleep today, papa. Oh, how those little words shot through my heart. I knew though I would not believe it, it was another voice, that it meant the sleep of death. And she did sleep. And oh, the light went out of my heart. The image of heaven graven in my soul was almost departed. Thou wert a heavenly gift directly to my heart of hearts. That is not an easy thing to read. So he has thought about this a lot as well. And he teaches, you know, not only what was, what was already taught, and that is that, look, all little children are saved from hellfire. I mean, we, we glance over the top of that. We have multiple Christians today who still teach. We don't really know what happens to them or we hope that they end up being saved. Well, that, that is not what we have to believe. President Joseph F. Smith. Would we be satisfied to see the children we bury in their infancy remain as children only throughout the countless ages of eternity? No, neither would the spirits that did possess their tabernacles of our children be satisfied to remain in that condition. But we know our children will not be compelled to remain as a child in stature always. For it was revealed from God, the fountain of truth, through Joseph Smith, the prophet in this dispensation that in the resurrection of the dead, the child that was buried in its infancy will come up in the form of the child that it was when it was laid down, and then it will begin to develop. From the day of the resurrection, the body will develop until it reaches the full measure of the stature of its spirit, whether it be male or female. If the spirit possessed the intelligence of God and the aspirations of mortal souls, it could not be satisfied with anything less than this. You will remember that we are told that the spirit of Jesus Christ visited one of the ancient prophets and revealed himself to him. And he declared his identity that he was the same son of God that was to come in the meridian of time. He said he would appear in the flesh just as he appeared to the prophet. He was not an infant. He was a grown developed spirit possessing the form of a man and the form of God, the same form as when he came and took upon him a tabernacle and developed it into the full stature of his spirit. Every spirit that comes to this earth to take upon it a tabernacle is a son or daughter of God, and possesses all the intelligence and all the attributes that any son or daughter can enjoy, either in the spirit world or in this world, except that in the spirit and separated from the body, they lacked just the tabernacle of being like God the Father. It is said that God is a spirit, and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and truth. But he is a spirit possessing the tabernacle of flesh and bones as tangible as man's. And therefore to be like God and Jesus, all men must have a body. It matters not whether these tabernacles mature in this world, or have to wait and mature in the world to come. According to the word of the prophet Joseph Smith, the body will develop either in time or in eternity, to the full stature of the spirit. And when the mother is deprived of the pleasure and joy of rearing her babe to manhood, or to womanhood in this life through the hand of death, that privilege will be renewed to her hereafter, and she will enjoy it. To a fuller fruition than it would be possible for her to do here. When she does it there it will be with the certain knowledge that the results will be without failure, whereas here the results are unknown until after we have passed the test. The spirits of our children are immortal before they came to us, and their spirits before and after bodily death, and are like they were before they came. They are as they would have appeared if they had lived in the flesh to Grow to maturity to develop their physical bodies to the full stature of their spirits. If you see one of your children that has passed away, it may appear to you in the form in which you would recognize it, the form of childhood. But if it came to you as a messenger bearing some important truth, it would perhaps come as the spirit of Bishop Edward Hunter's son, who died when a little child came to him in the stature of full grown manhood and revealed himself to his father and said, I am your son. Bishop Hunter did not understand it, and he went to my father. So Joseph EPH Smith's father is Hyrum Smith, and said, hyrum, what does this mean? I buried my son when he was only a little boy, but he has come to me as a full grown man, a noble, glorious young man, and declared himself my son. What does it mean? Hyrum Smith, the patriarch, told him, the spirit of Jesus Christ was full grown before he was born into the world. And so our children were full grown and possessed their full stature in the Spirit before they entered mortality, the same stature they will possess after they have passed away from mortality and as they will appear after the resurrection when they've completed their mission. Joseph Smith taught the doctrine that the infant child that was laid away in death would come up in the resurrection as a child. And pointing to the mother of a lifeless child, he said, you will have the joy, the pleasure and satisfaction of nurturing this child after its resurrection until it reaches the full stature of its spirit. There is restitution, there is growth, there is development after the resurrection from death. I love this truth. It speaks volumes of happiness and joy and gratitude to my soul. Thank the Lord that He has revealed these principles to us. I know that was a little bit longer than we anticipated and may have gotten slightly carried away, but you know, if you're feeling the Spirit, when you hear what the prophet Joseph Smith said and what the prophet Joseph F. Smith said about that special doctrine, I urge you to let it sink deep into your soul. For all the questions that we might have about why certain things happen in history and. And why is this, and what about this? Do any of those questions speak louder than the voice of the Spirit telling you right now that that is a true doctrine from God? I hope not. And I hope whenever you have any doubts, you measure them as you should against the truths that have been revealed. So I didn't intend to spend that much time on it. I know Richard said, you better get to Enoch and you better get to him now.
- [28:00]
B
And I did not I feel like that was a worthy detour. I had the same exact thought as you. One of the things when we were on the Blonde Apologist with. With Lauren. Pardon me, I'm getting all for clumped myself. We were. And we. We were talking about polygamy specifically, and. And when we hear things that. That. That hit our ear and it's like, oh, geez. To your point, the beauty of the doctrine of the things you just shared between Joseph F. Smith and Joseph Smith, they don't exist outside of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. And this also goes to the very nature of who God and Jesus are. What you described is the God that I understand him to be, that would be full of mercy and love and provide all of the opportunity for a. For a just absolutely inconsolable mother or. Or father, in that case, anyway. That was. That was great, Garrett.
- [29:11]
A
Well, I feel like for both of those prophets, they lost so many kids that it was something very near and dear to them. And I. I cannot say that I speak from experience. I mean, I know people very closely to me who have lost children, and. And I. I don't believe that the pain would ever be assuaged outside of the resurrection. And that's how many of the hurts that we have in this life are. There are some things that we're just never going to be able to recover from in this life. And. And that's why I think Joseph talked about it, you know, that when people die and they leave us, they. It's like they're on a journey. But we're going to be there soon, too. In the grand scheme of the eternities, in the trillions of trillions of years, the infinite amount of time, the eternal nature of your spirit, as long as you've lived this life is not even the batting of an eye or the fluttering of a butterfly wing. It is almost infinitesimally small compared to your eternal existence before and certainly to your eternal existence after. And so what seems like an eternal pain that will never be taken away will be taken away. I mean, that is the great promise. I mean, we're in the. The Easter season. I mean, the great promise of the resurrection, the empty tomb, is all of that pain will eventually be gone, swallowed up in the miracle of the resurrection. And what a blessing to know that God has even provided a way for those parents who've lost their children to raise them again. Now, speaking of the prophet, I'm gonna. I'm gonna transition to Enoch. Were we not talking on such a serious topic? I Mean, it'd be, you know, great to put a cut of they might be giants in here because just to say it right, that we started off this talk about, you know, someone referencing the Book of Enoch, you have, it's a very kitsch thing now for some Latter Day Saints to pull things out of the apocryphal Book of Enoch and to say, see, see. But as we talked about, they also leave out a lot of things like the fact that angels committed adultery with human women and they spawned giants. And those giants taught the world evil. And that's why evil exists in the world. But we went through many of the early Christian fathers, Tertullian among them. Yes, yes, Tertullian. Oh, how the name will live. Trying to explain away this, this passage in Genesis that, you know, does not seem to make sense. And we'll just go back to it again. It came to pass that when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair and they took them wives, all of which they chose. So that idea, you know, the sons of God and the daughters of men is part of what spawns this. Then of course, the Book of Enoch gives that answer. Now here's the real answer, not the Tertullian esque answer, not even the origin answer, which is still better than the others, not even the, the Augustine answer, but the answer that you get from the book of Moses, from Joseph's expansion, his revealed expansion of, Of. Of this, right? So. To give you an idea of how, of. Of how it reads right in Genesis, right, The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair and they took them to wives, all of which they chose. Joseph revealed explanation, revealed doctrine that the sons of men saw that their daughters saw that their daughters were fair. So first of all, the sons of men, not the sons of God. So instead of trying to figure out, well, the sons of God, you mean like angels and stuff? No, actually it was always the sons of men saw that their daughters were fair and they took them to wives even as they chose. And the Lord, this is not anywhere in the Bible. And the Lord said unto Noah, the daughters of thy sons have sold themselves. For behold mine anger is kindled against the sons of men, for they will not hearken unto my voice. And it came to pass that Noah prophesied and taught the things of God even as it was in the beginning. So you, you have essentially what's going on instead is that you Know, the children of Noah have essentially rejected the covenants. They've rejected God. That's what this is referencing. If you drop down to verse four, right, this is where it says there were giants on the earth in those days. And after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bear them children unto them, the same became mighty men which were of old men of renown. So that's, that's what the verse says. Here's how Joseph Smith renders it. And in those days, there were giants on the earth. Okay, pretty similar. And they sought Noah to take away his life, but the Lord was with Noah and the power of the Lord was upon him. And the Lord ordained Noah after his own order and commanded him that he should go forth and declare his gospel unto the children of men, even as it was given unto Enoch. And it came to pass that Noah called upon the children of men that they should repent, but they hearkened not unto his words. And also after that they had heard him, they came up before him saying, behold, we are the sons of God. Have we not taken unto ourselves daughters of men? And we are not. And are we not eating and drinking and marrying and given in marriage, and our wise barren to his children? And the same are mighty men which are like unto them of old men of great renown. And they hearkened not unto the words of Noah. Well, that is, first of all, a pretty big expansion, right, of what this is. And second of all, you know, that's the same phraseology that Jesus uses, right? The coming of the Son of man will be like the coming of the days of Noah, where they're eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. And, and, and here it's now part of this expansion of, of the story that's in Genesis. But what's clear here is that, that what was intended is that people of the covenant, right, people who should have known better, people who are descended from, from, from Adam, reject God and then start boasting in their own strength leading up to that. Now, Enoch is, is clearly a, he's a big deal in early Latter Day Saint theology, in part because we have such an expansion of what we know about him in, in the book of Moses. And it's pretty impactful on Joseph Smith. We can tell this because of how quickly Joseph begins referencing and speaking about Enoch in his own writing. So he receives this in 1830. By the end of 1830, he's using portions of this to teach Latter Day Saints. So one of the earliest letters that we have from Joseph Smith is a letter that he writes. Rights to the saints in Colesville, New York. Now, remember, those saints are struggling because they are being persecuted like crazy for the fact that they are believers. And so this is in December of 1830. I mean, we've referenced this before. I don't know, it was probably on the. Probably on the premium maybe or. I don't know, maybe we just. Maybe I never referenced it before. I like saying that we've referenced it before. Yeah. And then I like people desperately searching our archives trying to find where we mentioned it. Then I just be like, oh, it was in a fireside. See you later. No, it was the. It was in the after party of our live event. You know, people like, hey, how's it going? Like, let me tell you something about Enoch. And then I just ran out of the room. But the saints in Colesville are really struggling. And so Joseph writes to them. And you can tell how much you know what Joseph thinks about their suffering because he says, I would inform you that Zion is prospering here. There are many serious inquirers in this place who are seeking the Lord. It gave us much joy to hear from you, to hear that God is softening the hearts of the children of men in that place, it being the seat of Satan. Now that is not what you want the prophet to call the town you live in, referencing it as the seat of Satan. But blessed be the name of God. It has also become the abode of our Savior. And may you all be faithful and wait for the time of our Lord, for his appearing is nigh at hand. But the time and season. Brethren, you have no need that I write unto you. For ye yourselves perfectly know that the day of the Lord cometh as a thief in the night. For when they say peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them as a travail upon a woman. But they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness. Therefore let us not sleep as others do, but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep in the night, and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us be of the day be sober. Putting on the breastplate of faith and of law for a helmet and of hope for salvation. For God hath not appointed unto us to wrath. These are all. He's just. He's pulling scripture after scripture after scripture from the Bible here, quoting it. But to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, wherefore comfort one another, even as ye do also. For perilous times are at hand. For behold the dethronement and deposition of kings in the eastern continent, the whirlwinds in the West India Islands. It has destroyed a number of vessels and uprooted buildings and strewn them in the air. The fields of spices have been destroyed. The inhabitants have barely escaped with their lives, and many have been buried under ruins. In Colombia, South America, they are at war. And peace is taken from the earth in part, and soon it will be in whole. Destructions are at our doors, and they soon will be in the houses of the wicked. And they that know not God. Yea, lift up your heads and rejoice, for your redemption draweth nigh. We are the most favored people that have ever been from the foundation of the world, if we remain faithful in keeping the commandments of our God. Yea, even Enoch the seventh from Adam beheld our day and rejoiced. And the prophets from that day forth have prophesied of the second coming of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and rejoiced at the day of rest of the saints. Yea, and the apostle of our Savior did also rejoice in his appearance. And so this, you know, this reference to this, that he, you know, he saw our day and rejoiced. I mean, that's coming from, you know, Moses. And if you go to verse 64 and 65 and 66 from Moses, chapter seven, I mean, again, this is just showing you how much Joseph has incorporated this, right? He's received this. It means so much to him that when he's trying to comfort these saints that are suffering, he quotes the scripture that he's basically just received. Verse 64 of Moses. 7. And there shall be in mine abode, and it shall be Zion, which shall come forth out of all the creations which I have made. And for the space of a thousand years the earth shall rest, and it shall come to pass that Enoch saw the day of the coming of the Son of Man in the last days to dwell on the earth in righteousness for the space of a thousand years. But before that day, he saw great tribulations among the wicked, and he also saw the sea that it was troubled, and men's hearts failing them, looking forth with fear and judgments of the Almighty God which had come upon the wicked. And the Lord showed Enoch all things, even unto the end of the world. And he saw the day of the righteous, the hour of their redemption, and received a fullness of joy. So, I mean, first of all, you get a much better understanding of Enoch coming from the book of Moses, but also that as Joseph said, Enoch saw our day and rejoiced over it, saw what it was like, as Enoch saw essentially everything. And you know, it's not just the letter that Joseph's going to receive, going to write there at the very end of December when he receives this revelation from God, commanding the church to move to Ohio. On our, on our premium side, we are laboring to. To. I don't know what happened. I started to try to talk about Doctrine and Covenant, Section 41, and we just, we just decided that we just spent a lot of time reading anti Mormon arguments that were present at the time. Is that a pretty fair assessment of where we're at?
- [44:41]
B
That's pretty much it, yeah. It's a good time. It's a fun time.
- [44:44]
A
Yeah. So if you're wondering, should I get premium? I don't know, should you learn more about anti Mormon arguments? When the Saints first arrived in Kirtland, you be that you. You decide. But obviously the missionaries have access to it for free, right? So as long as they go to that Google Drive. This revelation which commands the Saints to move to Ohio, also makes this reference to Enoch's Zion. Right? The city of Enoch that was taken up, thus saying, the Lord God, even Jesus Christ the Great, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. The same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity and all the seraphic hosts of heaven before the world was made. The same which knoweth all things. For all things are present before mine eyes. And I am the same which spoke, and the world was made, and all things came by me. I am the same which hath taken the Zion of Enoch unto my own bosom. And verily I say, even as many as have believed on my name, for I am Christ, and in my own name, by the virtue of the blood which I have spilled, have I pled before the Father for them. But behold, the residue of the wicked have I kept in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day which shall come at the end of the earth. So remember, they don't yet know where the city of Zion is going to be. And this idea of building this city is paramount among early believers. The idea that they are going to go to a place where they're going to build a city of God and everyone will treat each other equally. Everyone will love God. They will be completely devoted both to God and to loving their neighbor. This paradise that the city of Zion is described as. The Lord makes reference to Enoch's Zion, his city, in this reference to them about the fact that they are going to have to leave New York and that they are going to have to gather. So you can see very early on the, the idea of the city of Enoch becomes, it becomes a, it almost becomes like the, you know, the archetype of the city of Zion that we want to build. We want to build a city that's so faithful and so righteous that God takes it to heaven unto himself. And that, that's how they're going to prepare for the second coming of the Lord. Now Joseph Smith is going to, you know, he, he's going to expand upon Enoch in, in several places. I don't want to be ridiculously exhaustive, but I want to cover some of them. One of them is something that's called the instructions on the priesthood. This is something that Joseph Smith gives. In October of 1840, All the days of Enoch were 365 years and Enoch walked with God and he was not, for God took him. Now that's, that's what the Bible said, you know, and just the, with the Bible, it's like, oh, you know, Enoch's just gone. Like, where'd he go? Yeah, he's gone. Yes, he had to go make an overdue car payment and we won't see him back until, until he gets back. Now this Enoch, God reserved unto himself that he should not die at that time, and appointed unto him a ministry unto terrestrial bodies of whom there has been but little reveal. He is reserved also under the presidency of a dispensation. And more shall be said of him and terrestrial bodies. In another treatise, he is a ministering angel to minister to those who shall be heirs of salvation, and appeared unto Jude as Abel did unto Paul. Therefore Jude spoke of him in again, back in our very first Enoch, you know, months ago, eons ago, when the world was new, when Richard was a dashing and attractive person, no longer concealed by his glasses that make people no longer able to recognize him. Jude spoke of him in the 14th and 15th verses of Jude. And Enoch the seventh revealed these sayings. Behold, the Lord cometh with 10,000 of his saints. Joseph is teaching here that actually Enoch came to Jude as a ministering angel and gave him that information. Now that is not something that you're finding somewhere else.
- [50:06]
B
You are not.
- [50:08]
A
Right? Right. So instead of taking the apocryphal book of Enoch and its relation to Jude and trying to say, see, this is probably like almost important as the Book of Mormon is, it's much better to take what the prophet of the restoration says about that connection that Enoch, because he was taken to heaven without tasting death, became a ministering angel and came to Jude and taught him what Jude then said.
- [50:39]
B
That's pretty cool.
- [50:41]
A
It is pretty cool, right? Yeah. Now, this is the same place where Joseph's going to elaborate on this, but I'm going to share a little bit more because this is still talking about Enoch. Paul was also acquainted with this character. So Paul also knew Enoch now, and it says Paul was acquainted with his character and received instructions from him. So apparently Enoch also appeared to Paul. So this is probably something that many Latter Day Saints don't know, that Joseph Smith is teaching that, you know, just like, you know, Gabriel and Moroni are popping off everywhere, you know, ministering to people and giving them instruction. Enoch is apparently one of these messengers delivering information. And one of the people that he visits is Paul. By faith, Enoch was translated that he should not see death and was not found because God had translated him. Before his translation. He had this testimony that he pleased God. But without faith, it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must believe that he is and believe that he's a revealer to those who diligently seek him. Now, what's interesting is Paul tells us more about Enoch in Hebrews. That's that. Well, it's Hebrews 11, chapter 5, chapter 5. Sorry, 11th chapter, verse 5. Boy, that. You know what? Somewhere in Hebrew, you know, just go search Hebrews and find it.
- [52:21]
B
It's all good. Yeah, right.
- [52:23]
A
I feel like, you know what? Why don't you do. Do some work on your end? How about I just put some random numbers out there and you Sudoku. Sudoku, this thing to try to figure out where the verse is.
- [52:35]
B
Well, really, the. The new fun with numbers segment is just you saying random verses that may or may not be actually what we're doing now. That's fun with numbers.
- [52:45]
A
I should invent books of scripture too, and just say them and see if anyone calls me on them. Well, it's the reason why in Methuselah 3 and just see if anyone even says anything.
- [52:56]
B
Yeah, you know what? Let's do that. Fun with making up scriptures.
- [53:00]
A
It's a new segment in the book of Lemuel. It says, it's getting lighter, I'm getting stronger. It says right there, book, chapter one, verse one, probably verse two is where's a stick that I can beat Nephi with? So what's interesting is that the. The Old Testament tells us almost nothing, right? It's just the Old Testament tells us, hey, Enoch used to be Here, Hey, Enoch's not here anymore. The fact that we know that Enoch was trans, that the other Christians know that Enoch was taken away, because other Christians do know that. They know it because of what Paul says about Enoch. So here's the question. How does Paul know that about Enoch? How did Paul just happen to know the particulars of the translation of Enoch? Because it's not in the Bible. Because apparently, again, according to Joseph Smith, Enoch came and taught Paul. And so therefore he knew that he was translated, that he should not see death, and was not found because God had translated. And before the translation, he had this testimony that he pleased God. So Enoch apparently ministered to him, told him, this is how the translation of me and my city occurred. And then Paul related that in what he wrote. And then Joseph's going to go on. Now, this doctrine of translation is a power which belongs to the priesthood. There are many things which belong to the powers of the priesthood and the keys thereof that have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world. They are hid before. They are hid from the wise and the prudent to be revealed in the last times. Many have supposed that the doctrine of translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God and into an eternal fullness. But this is a mistaken idea. So there are lots of of biblical commentaries trying to deal with this idea, right? Because Paul introduces it and, you know, like Clark's Bible commentary, for instance, it talks about, you know, Moses and Elijah on the mount of transfiguration, right? Adam Clark's going to say Elijah came from heaven in the same body which he had upon earth, for he was translated that he did not see death. And the body of Moses was probably raised again as a pledge of the resurrection. Nevertheless, both their bodies exhibit the same appearance to show that the bodies of glorified saints are the same whether the person had been translated or whether they had died. So what is current biblical commentary in Joseph's time is that there's no difference between Enoch or Elijah being translated and Moses being resurrected. Because, you know, we know Moses died. So how did Moses appear to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration? Well, he had to have been resurrected and Elijah clearly not dead because he's riding that chariot of flame, Right? So Clark is making the argument in his commentary that translation and resurrection are for all intents and purposes the same.
- [57:02]
B
This is one of those things that is that you speak about all the time, the underrating of just how deep Joseph Smith is in terms of answering millennial long Theological problems and issues. We glaze right past that.
- [57:22]
A
Yeah. Because we're like, well, I mean, what about like polygamy? Yeah, what about like polygamy? I mean, I get it. I understand that there are difficult things for which we don't have answers, but it's a great thing that this semi literate farm boy just so happened to have a completely different understanding of, of translation and resurrection than the biblical scholars of the time, which, by the way, makes much more sense and is truer to the biblical text because the biblical text is clearly saying there's something different between the two or it would just use the same word.
- [58:05]
B
Right.
- [58:06]
A
Right now we're out of time. I have more I want to share, but we don't have time to share it. I'm just going to leave you on that bitter, angry thought that we have so much more truth than we are willing to acknowledge at times. That's why it's so important that we study it. There's a reason why President Oaks and President Nelson before him begged you, continually, beg you to study the Scriptures, to read the Book of Mormon, to go to the temple where you can receive higher instruction. If you feel like you are distant from God, then try to close the gap. Try to find a way to make that distance less. If you aren't doing what the prophet has asked you repeatedly to do, then maybe you, you. You don't really want to have that closer relationship with God. You just, you just think you do. In life, there are lots of things we think we want, but in, in reality, we generally vote with our feet. The thing, the. The things we actually devote our time to are the things that really matter to us. And so I implore you, heading into general conference, hang on the words of the prophets and apostles and the general leadership of the church, implement them in your life as much as you can, and at the same time realize that there is a depth of revelation, a depth of knowledge about who we are, where we're going, what this next life is going to be that the rest of the world doesn't have. Don't take it for granted, for this is this great message of the restoration. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.