S6E15 The Book of Enoch Part 5 (City of Zion)

Summary

STANDARD OF TRUTH PODCAST
S6E15 — The Book of Enoch Part 5 (City of Zion)
April 9, 2026
Hosted by Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

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Episode Overview

This episode continues the multi-part deep dive into the Book of Enoch and its relationship to Latter-day Saint (LDS) teachings about authority, continuing revelation, and the doctrine of Zion. The hosts tackle historical questions from listeners, discuss the tensions between different Christian traditions' claims to priesthood authority, share personal stories, and examine how the early Saints and their leaders understood translation, resurrection, and the city of Enoch as a prototype for Zion.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humorous and Personal Intro

• The hosts banter about pre-recording shows, stressful live events, and their minor LDS podcast "celebrity" status, then segue into listener emails ([04:35]).
• Memorable quote:
  • "I'm always just one step away from becoming a Presbyterian. That's where we're at." – Dr. Dirkmaat [01:19]

2. Listener Mailbag: Influence and LDS Podcast Economy

• Tina shares how her son’s missionary service has spread the podcast among fellow missionaries ([04:35]-[05:51]).
• Discussion on the tongue-in-cheek profitability (or lack thereof) of the podcast:
  • "By year 14 we're going to break even. By year 15, you're going to be able to buy a tie." – Dr. Leduc [06:22]

3. Storytime: Bishop Howard Wild

• Dr. Leduc recounts memories of Bishop Howard Wild from Idaho, lauding him as a rough but Christlike influence ([06:55]-[11:10]):
  • "Few people have had a larger impact on my life than Bishop Howard Wild... I don't know anybody that exemplified the actions of Jesus Christ better than him." – Dr. Leduc [07:56]

4. Authority in Christianity: LDS vs. Catholic Claims

• Listener Tayden asks about Catholic claims to authority through Peter and how it compares to the LDS model ([13:26]-[22:11]).
• Dr. Dirkmaat clarifies differences:
  • Both claim authority passed from apostles, but:
    • Catholics: Authority is institutional, held by bishops, especially the Bishop of Rome (Pope)—not prophets, not continuing revelation in the LDS sense.
    • Protestants: Largely reject the need for authority or ordinances for salvation, so the debate is less relevant.
  • Memorable quote:
    • "If you inquire of them what they have against the principles of the Latter-Day Saints, the answer is they are deluded because they admit of new revelation." – Dr. Dirkmaat, citing early LDS writings [25:22]

5. Historical LDS Perspective on Revelation and Priesthood

• Extensive reading from an 1842 Times and Seasons article demonstrates that since the early days, LDS doctrine has emphasized:
  • The necessity of priesthood authority given by revelation.
  • The insufficiency of Protestant “reformation” without “recommission” of authority and ordinances.
  • The belief that all prior reforms fell short without new revelation and restoration ([25:25]-[41:02]).
  • Notable passage:
    • "Where there is no gift of revelation, there can be no priesthood. And where there is no priesthood, there can be no ordinances of God. And where there are no ordinances of God, there can be no Church of God." – Times and Seasons, read by Dr. Dirkmaat [30:25]

6. Zion and Enoch as LDS Archetypes

• Transition to the main theme: Enoch as the model of Zionhood ([45:03]-[46:31]).
• Joseph Smith’s teachings: Translation ≠ Resurrection. Translated beings (e.g., Enoch’s city) have special roles as ministering angels and are a preparatory stage, not the same as resurrected beings with "fullness."

7. The City of Enoch and the Call to Zion

• Joseph Smith writes to the Twelve (1840):
  • Latter-day Saints are to become like Enoch—overcoming selfishness, becoming filled with charity, and eventually being prepared for the coming of Christ ([46:31]-[49:41]).
  • "Let every selfish feeling be not only buried, but annihilated; let the love of God and man predominate and reign triumphant..." – Joseph Smith, read by Dr. Dirkmaat [47:18]

8. Role of Prophets, Adam-ondi-Ahman, and Continuous Preparation

• Joseph Smith taught prophets from Adam to Enoch "prayed for our day" and foresaw a great council to usher in the Second Coming; revelation, not tradition, is the primary distinguishing mark of the true church ([49:41]-[53:49])
  • Memorable quote:
    • "Revelation alone might be the whole difference." – Dr. Dirkmaat [53:41]

9. Faith and the Example of Enoch

• Hyrum Smith: Latter-day Saints are called to exercise greater faith than even Enoch—not in words, but in action ([56:21]-[57:15]):
  • "We have more power than Enoch and have a greater work to do than Enoch had, and we shall accomplish it." – Hyrum Smith, quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat [56:41]

10. Second Coming, the Return of Enoch’s Zion, and Orson Pratt’s Teachings

• Orson Pratt: The return of the City of Enoch will coincide with the resurrection and usher in the Millennium ([60:00]-[63:46])
  • "The Zion of Enoch will also appear, and it will dwell on earth. The saints will then receive their everlasting inheritance." – Orson Pratt, quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat [63:31]
• Emphasis: Following the living prophet ensures preparation for what’s to come.

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Notable Quotes

• “If you follow the current prophet, you are going to be as prepared as you can be.” – Dr. Dirkmaat [53:41]
• "What made [Enoch] great was not his great words. What made him great was his faith and obedience." – Dr. Dirkmaat [57:10]
• "Zion is a people and a place — you’ve got to have people who love God and who love each other more than they love themselves." – Dr. Dirkmaat [57:46]
• "There are a lot of people who love to talk...but faith, the faith that's necessary to transform the world, isn't about pretty words." – Dr. Dirkmaat [56:59]

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Important Timestamps

• [04:35] — Segue from humor into the Listener Mailbag.
• [06:55–11:10] — Bishop Wild stories and lessons in Christ-like leadership.
• [13:26–22:11] — Deep discussion of Catholic vs. LDS authority and revelation.
• [25:22–32:02] — Historical LDS critique of Protestant and Catholic claims to authority; reading from Times and Seasons.
• [45:03–46:31] — Introduction to Enoch's translation and the difference from resurrection.
• [47:18–49:41] — Joseph Smith’s exhortation: Become like Enoch, create Zion.
• [53:41] — Centrality of continual revelation in LDS belief.
• [56:41] — Hyrum Smith: The Saints have "more power than Enoch".
• [63:31] — Orson Pratt on Enoch’s city returning at the resurrection.

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Tone and Style Notes

• The hosts maintain an approachable, witty, and conversational tone, frequently peppering discussion with self-deprecating humor and stories from both their lives and Church history.
• While often lighthearted, the episode is firmly rooted in LDS doctrine and invites listeners to deep, reflective engagement with their faith and heritage.

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Conclusion

This episode clarifies LDS understandings of priesthood authority, the importance of continuing revelation, and the model of Zion and Enoch as essential to Latter-day Saint self-understanding. Through history, listener Q&A, and doctrinal exposition, it challenges members to become individually and collectively “like unto Enoch,” with a focus on faith, charity, and preparation for the role of Zion in the latter days.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor. Foreign. Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmot, and I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[B]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. That was, that was an incredible general conference. I loved every minute of it.

[A]

I feel like we owe it to our listeners to let them know that this is yet again another pre recorded. I mean, look, all of them are pre recorded.

[B]

Yeah, we're not doing it live at 6am, right?

[A]

Although we did do it live in with an audience in Layton, and I hated every second of it.

[B]

Well, you loved, you loved the Littners that came. You just, they're wonderful people.

[A]

But it's, it's, I'm hanging on by the Gossamer's thread. As you often say. I'm always just one step away from becoming a Presbyterian. That's where we're at.

[B]

No, the live events are very stressful and then, you know, you do it here and it's just you and me, you know, but, you know, you do it in front of people and when you say Littner, then, you know.

[A]

So in a lot of ways you're traveling with us back into the past. You're going back to the future with us because this will drop while Richard is in Kenya. And so it'll be after General Conference. So we won't be able to quite yet talk about what we like to hear. I mean, you know, we just kind of like, wow, what a. It was pretty interesting how Elder Ruktorf mentioned planes, I thought.

[B]

Yeah, no, it was, it was, it was great. I've, I've already done some of the, you know, just imagine the Fun with Numbers segment we're going to have next week as we analyze.

[A]

So if this is the last time that you were going to listen to the podcast, you got, you got to go one more, you got to go one more week because that's when the Fun with numbers, Tertullian's Fun with Numbers, will get you back into the saddle of this podcast like nobody's business.

[B]

There is, there is one funny thing though, about, about General Conference is, you know, look, there's, there's, there's a decent amount of Tumult out there, you know, and it's. It's always been interesting, you know, as you have general conferences, it comes up to, you know, around major events in the world and calamities and war and rumors of war. But general conference is relatively. You know what? My guess is that there's going to be a lot of talks about how we need to be more like the savior and that. Yeah, that's. That'll probably.

[A]

So this won't be the one where they announce that a comet passing near the earth is the sign that Jesus is about to come.

[B]

Well, if it is. And you should have just let me say, wow, what a general conference. And we could have just left.

[A]

Maybe we should cut. We're going to actually cut several intros to this podcast and Richard will place them in based upon what happened. So. So we should do something like. Can you believe that was the most incredible. I've never. I wouldn't think they would ever announce something like that at conference.

[B]

Well, it's. It's much like the New York Times has. For every famous person, they already have their obituary written, right? They already have their. The, The. Not the obituary, but the. The bio.

[A]

The life sketch.

[B]

Yeah, the bio. The life sketch. So they have that.

[A]

They have one written for me and you?

[B]

I assume so. I mean, we're. You invited me to that influencer conference. I mean, I, I had a name tag and everything. If that doesn't deserve.

[A]

We're like grade F Mormon celebrities, so that's. Yeah, the kind that have to pay other people to listen to us rather than the other way around.

[B]

Well, actually, that's a perfect segue into our first email in the Phoebe Draper pal Palmer Brown mailbag. This email comes to us from Tina after introducing my first missionary son to the Standard of Truth podcast. I got him hooked. He has been sending me email addresses of missionaries he serves with, Serves with, serves with.

[A]

He serves. Whis. Did you.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. No, I didn't read that wrong. She spelled it wrong.

[A]

She spelled with incorrectly.

[B]

Is what you wiss. Yeah, that's how she.

[A]

It sounds like you dropped into a Bavarian accent real quick.

[B]

Whiss.

[A]

Yeah, we know all of the people he serves this. And we will make sure that they get their podcast on the gospel and

[B]

around who also desire your podcast hit. Here are the two most recent missionaries. She sent those over to us. I feel that I should be getting a cut of the pie, slice of the bread, piece of the bacon. You get the idea for my endeavors. While I'm not holding my breath for this payment, as I know how much you make. Well, we do appreciate you sending us the missionary emails. We make no money on the missionary emails. First of all, negative money, actually.

[A]

You would think that doing a weekly podcast with no advertising and giving it out for free and then putting it on platforms where you have to pay the platforms in order to have it on the platform, you would think that that'd be an amazing money making idea. It's it. We're still waiting for it to turn the corner. We're waiting for it to turn the corner.

[B]

I put together kind of the business case and I just told Garrett we just, we just need to wait and we're, we're in year six. And I said, you're just be patient.

[A]

No, he said to me, by year 14 we're going to break even. By year 15 you're going to be able to buy a tie. So I mean, I mean it's a long time to have no tie or a bad tie, but we'll get there anyway. Go ahead.

[B]

Yes. So she, she goes on. By the way, I was wondering if Richard leduc is the same Richard leduc who knows the Wild family in Nampa, Idaho. I grew up in Nampa and Howard Wild was in my ward. My dad was his assistant Scout master.

[A]

Do you happen to know these Wilds?

[B]

Yes. So he was, he was one of my favorite bishops of all time. He, he passed away a couple, a year ago and I was, I was heartbroken by that. He was. There are, there are people that have an impact on your life, and few people have had a larger impact on my life than Bishop Howard Wild. Now he was, he was an auto mechanic and so rural Idaho auto mechanic will have a vocabulary that will be different than say a Draper financial planner.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

And he was just the best guy. There are many stories that I would love to tell that I cannot, but

[A]

out of respect for the dead.

[B]

No, like, first of all, they're hilarious stories. I, so I, I was talking with his daughter Delsey and we were sharing stories when she shared with me that he passed away. And, and we just, we laughed and laughed for like an hour of the different, different stories that we. He. So he had a, he was on a 50 mile scout whatever and he had a heart attack halfway in. He didn't tell anybody about it. Essentially said, hey, I gotta go, and just walked out the other way. So he didn't ruin the trip for the rest of the Scouts. We had a time we were doing a, you know, the leadership training for the youth stuff. You Know, and we had. Does your steak center have one of those outbuildings that was like, you know, that you could use for different things?

[A]

No, no, no. We. We were on the poor side of Idaho. So you. So you all, you all were high rolling with your big time Boise money. See, I notice I even said Boise because it was, it was. It was. I was deliberately trying to give the incorrect pronunciation so that you could be, you know, Dan Dermeter.

[B]

You had, you had a. You had some sort of backstop baseball field, though, or something, right?

[A]

Not in my. Not. Not the building I went to, but there. There was a building that did have a field.

[B]

Okay, well, baseball field. So we had kind of this. This building that had kind of a bathroom. And, you know, you could have youth activities and stuff out there and whatever. Anyway, so it was one of those things where it was. It was for scouts. And so we had. We had a pretty nice sized group. We had about 18 of us that were. That were deacons. And so we're out there. And the idea was we were going to have kind of a camp out at the outbuilding. We're going to do tinfoil dinners or whatever. Did you ever like tin. I know you hate camping, but do you like.

[A]

I actually do like tin. I actually do like tinfoil dinners. And in fact, when Angie and I were first. When we were first dating, you know, one of the dates we went on was we made tinfoil dinners and then we went to, like, a park in Logan and made a campfire.

[B]

That's fun.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, I mean, it worked. She married me, but I don't know.

[B]

That's. That. She's like, oh, she's going to marry you.

[A]

If she sees you have money for potatoes, hamburger meat, and tinfoil, she's going to say, wow, you're the richest college student I know. Well,

[B]

so we have this tinfoil dinner and we had a fairly rowdy group, and it was like midnight. People kept messing around and not going to bed. And he warned us and he forewarned us. And then at 2 o' clock in the morning, when the kids wouldn't shut up, he turns on the light, says a series of words, and then says, all right, we're just gonna do it right now. You're not going to shut up and go to bed. We're going to do the leadership. So we did the leadership training from 2am to 7am and then he took us all home. Hilarious. Absolutely.

[A]

That's amazing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Everything you've learned about church leadership, you learned in that Meeting.

[B]

Seriously, like, get off. I'll. I'll tell. When we stop recording, I'll tell you several of the stories. They're absolutely hilarious.

[A]

If you want to know these stories, you're going to need to decide it for the super premium, which isn't just the premium, but you have to find Richard somewhere and give him 20 bucks for him to tell you the story.

[B]

Oh, I'll tell the stories for free. They're great stories, but they got to

[A]

track you down at, like, the Hoo Hot and Leighton.

[B]

Anyway, the Wild family I absolutely love and just, they're the greatest people. Bishop Howard Wild was the greatest. He's. He's the guy. He's the guy that, like, there's something about, like, who's the actual Joseph Smith bodyguard? I'm spacing the name. My gosh.

[A]

Every. Literally everyone who lived In Nauvoo in 1844, every single male descendant, every single person who's ever.

[B]

Porter.

[A]

You mean Porter Rockwell.

[B]

Porter Rockwell. One of the reasons why he's such a lovable character is because he's this rough and tumble guy who loves the prophet Joseph Smith. Yeah, Right. And so, like, there's lots of folks that are rough and tumble guys that, you know, that love the gospel and love their savior and love the prophet Joseph Smith. And Bishop Wild was just that kind of a guy where he would do anything for you. And he was a rough stone rolling like we all are. But I don't know anybody that exemplified the actions of Jesus Christ better than him. Anyway, it was when I saw the email, I was just. I was overjoyed to share that. Moving on. Garrett.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Greetings from a college student and a church custodian who is seen laughing randomly in the hallways at 11am I've got to imagine that's a terrifying sight for folks.

[A]

So people are walking by and they see some of them by themselves, and they're just cackling. I mean, yeah.

[B]

While listening to our podcast, of course. I assume that when people see somebody laughing at 1am in a hallway that's dark. Dark and poorly lit, that they're. They're. The reason they're laughing isn't because they're a psychopath, because they're listening to the podcast.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, that's what you'd hope, anyways, that everyone that you see that appears to be talking to people that aren't there is listening to our podcast.

[B]

Your podcast has really helped me put church history in perspective, in context. Additionally, learning about the church within a traditional Christian context has made me Appreciate our gospel so incredibly much. I appreciate the work you guys have done to answer questions and debunk half truth claims that make the rounds over and over again. My question is that the Catholic Church claims to have authority from Christ to Peter the Apostle and down the line in the church, how does this compare to or make sense to our authority from the apostles to Joseph Smith and then mini post scripts. My favorite of the postscripts was I made this font extra big for Dr. Leduc. You're welcome. She made it 18 font and. Which I appreciate. I believe it's a she. It's Tayden Tadden, probably Tayden T, A,

[A]

D, Y, N. Let's have our listeners email in and let us know how they think her name is supposed to be pronounced.

[B]

If it's a. If it's a her. I hope we don't offend either way. But it was very nice.

[A]

Yeah, it's true. But they did say that they weren't in labor. I mean, I guess.

[B]

Yeah, we're in the context of it all. I mean, the subject. I'm not in labor, but I have a good question. I swear. Anyway, the extra large font is 18. Now I require 48, so I do appreciate the move from 11 to 18, but it's not doing it. So. Anyway, but thank you. And good.

[A]

Essentially, 18 point font to Richard is the. It's the list of the, you know, possible side effects on a drug commercial written underneath. I mean, it's. It's fast, it's quick. Nobody knows.

[B]

It's the Declaration of Independence written on a single grain of rice.

[A]

Yeah. You might. You might as well writing something in 18 font to him. You might as well just send it on a telegraph wire and have him make out the dots and dashes.

[B]

So, Garrett, now we. We do have an Catholic listener. Right. We have one that we gave the free. So here's how you get the free content. A missionary.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You pay for it. A missionary, which. No, but so to the six people that pay for it. A missionary, the one Catholic listener from Canada that reached out to us that we were very happy to talk to. And then Joni, who's a lady. That is lovely that I went and taught with the missionaries and then also gave her the preview of content.

[A]

So there's no possible way that she listens.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. Joni, she's. Yeah. First of all, she's far too kind and nice to enjoy the podcast. I specifically started with the Joseph Smith and the Restoration. I should have had her listen to the. The. Your King Follet introduction. She would have loved that you suppose

[A]

that God was God for all eternity. I will refute that idea. But so this is a good question. And you know, I think Latter Day Saints, like, like many people of other religions are, you know, they, they don't have a ton of experience in, in the doctrines and beliefs of other churches. And you know, I don't feel super comfortable saying, oh, this is exactly what Catholics believe. But in general, so where, what are the similarities? The similarities, you know, they, they really are in the fact that there's any kind of, any kind of authority at all. Okay? So that there is any kind of authority is already, is already completely different from Protestantism. Okay? So. And Latter Day Saints don't just claim that authority is necessary for ordinances. Now, now, once again, a Protestant is not going to claim that authority is necessary for ordinances given the fact that no ordinances are necessary for salvation. Right? So the discussion about whether or not someone has authority becomes, it becomes relatively moot. I mean, right? Once you say that there is no such thing as a saving ordinance, well, then who has the authority to perform it becomes a much, it becomes a much less important discussion. Now it's certainly a discussion, right? I mean, whether or not someone is authorized by the Methodist Church to baptize someone into the Methodist Church, that's still an important thing. But it's not, I don't know, how would you say a life and death discussion the way it is for someone who believes that ordinances are essential for salvation, like Catholics do. Catholics believe, you know, that with few exceptions, that, you know, baptism is essential for salvation. So where things really start to divide is in two main places. One, Catholics do not believe that the Pope is a prophet. They don't believe the Pope is an apostle. They believe that he has apostolic authority. They'll even refer to as the Holy Apostolic See, Right? Because what they are saying is the apostles had authority given to them by Jesus. Okay, every Latter Day Saints on board, okay, we're all there with you. The apostles gave that authority to other people. Again, Latter Day Saints are pretty much on board with you. But now they're asking you, what do you mean by other people? What do you mean by authority? Where are you going with this? And so Catholics believe that the apostles established, you know, the, the, the primacy of the bishopric in Rome, but that the bishop of Rome was not an apostle. He was given authority and he, he led the church with authority. And even today a Catholic does not believe in continuing revelation, certainly Catholic dogmas and Doctrines are spelled out differently over the course of time, but the Pope's role in that is that he's Christ's Vicar on earth. He is the person that God has chosen to lead the Church using both the authority of Scripture and the authority of tradition, those two things as a means of determining the way forward. So they absolutely believe that the Pope is inspired. But a Catholic is not going to say to you that the Pope is a prophet. And that's really where the division comes. The division comes in. Do you believe in continuing revelation and continuing, not just authority, continuing apostolic, as in an apostle holding the keys, who has the ability to receive revelation right now from God. If the Catholic Church were to change a doctrine or policy today, they would not say the Pope had a revelation, and in that revelation God dictated to him. X they might say, after praying and studying the Scriptures and studying the writings of the early Fathers, we feel inspired that this, you know, to make this change to some aspect of the worship service.

[B]

So the question then I have for that is the idea then for Peter, who was an apostle, certainly, and is viewed as the first Pope or the first Bishop of Rome. Right. Is the idea that Linus or Clement, who came after that, those, since they weren't with Jesus, that they didn't have that same level of authority as a Peter would.

[A]

So, so this is something that both Catholics and Protestants, depending on which theologian you read. But this is an argument they're going to make is that apostles are special witnesses of Christ. Right. And look, they could point to Matthias, right, in Acts 1. Right. Latter Day Saints love Acts 1, because what does it demonstrate? You will certainly have primarily Protestants who will say things like, the apostles wasn't an office in Jesus's church. Jesus, church is the body of believers. So they didn't have to have 12 apostles. And as those apostles died, the believers had the authority to act in his name, and they always did. Now, of course, then how do you explain Acts chapter 1, where the infallible word of God says, is that among these men, I don't have it in front of me, but among these men who are with us all the time, the Lord Jesus went and out from among us, must one be chosen and ordained? So the Bible makes it an imperative that you have to replace Judas. Well, why is that if the number doesn't matter? Now, a Catholic, on the other hand, might point to that very same story and say, yes, this is what an apostle is. An apostle is someone who has special authority, who personally knew Jesus. That's why Matthias had to who was with us all the time. The Lord Jesus went in and out among us. Paul, of course, gets, you know, grandfathered into being an apostle because Jesus appears to him. Now, that does render a kind of a problem. Right, because we set up the standard of, well, the only people that can be apostles are people that Jesus gave the authority to. Or the apostles can choose someone else to be an apostle as long as that person knew Jesus in their life. Or Jesus just can call an apostle whatever he wants to because he's Jesus.

[B]

Yeah, that's the problem. Right. So like, Paul doesn't know Jesus before, but Jesus appears to him. So why couldn't then Jesus appear to somebody 100 years later, 200 years later,

[A]

if we or an angel of heaven appear unto you?

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You know, when Joseph Smith was the editor of the Times and Seasons, he presented a pretty. This is something that, you know, I don't think he wrote, but that he had published in the. In the Times and Seasons. And he kind of lays out this idea, or at least again, he's repeating this, what was coming from another church publication. So the same remarks will in all their force apply to Methodism in all of its branches and to all other systems which have derived their priesthood and ordinances from the mother Church. If the Catholics are false, then Protestantism has no foundation. Luther derived his authority from Catholics. Wesley derived his authority and baptism from the established Church, and so did his followers. We might trace this matter from one branch of reformers or dissenters to another in all their various sects from the early dawn of the. The pretended Reformation down to the smallest sprigger branch of which was the great tree of corrupt Christianity or anti Christianity is composed. But we forbear suffice. It is to say that the same rule will apply to all except such as can absolutely claim authority by revelation from God. But churchmen, Methodists and Protestants in general deny the plainest terms, in the plainest terms, the possibility of any revelation later than the Bible. Hence, if you inquire of them what they have against the principles of the Latter Day Saints, the answer is they are deluded because they admit of new revelation. Now, we've talked about this before, but this is something that both Catholics and Protestants have in common. And that is you have to put a lid on continuing revelation at some point or you have to control it or you have to. You have to enforce it. Otherwise, what happens? Well, you have the Montanists who just claim that they're receiving revelation and prophesying for the Church. Well, yeah, but that Montanist isn't the Bishop of Rome. So how is he able to tell the Church where they're supposed to. Well, he's inspired by God. That's all God gives. God gives revelation. A Latter Day Saint can appreciate this issue. I would guess every single person listening to us has been in a conversation with someone at some point where they tried to pull the, the I, I felt the spirit card with you. And then what came out of their mouth was something that isn't just false, but is decidedly against every aspect of the church that we believe in. Have you ever had that happen, Richard?

[B]

Sure. And that speaks nothing of like Hiram Pay, like, like it's, it's, this is a, it's a constant problem, right? Like hey, there's got to be order to how this is done. And, and Bernie finding those VHS tapes

[A]

was, should be the section 139 of the doctrine of Covenants. I mean, but it was, it was powerful. Then 140 would be patriarchal blessings. But this is a concept, you know, how do you control the idea of new revelation? And the Catholic Church essentially said that the canon was closed, that Revelation was closed, that that was something that was of the apostles in a way of pushing away from this kind of Montanist heresy. And this was very much picked up by Protestants as well. And in fact it's kind of the, it's the blueprint for Martin Luther and all other Protestants. Truth comes from the Bible. It doesn't come from your nice arguments. It doesn't come from tradition. It doesn't come from the way we've always done things. It doesn't come from how you feel about things. If it's not in the Bible, it's not true. Or at least a truth that we need to know. Back to this article in the Times and Seasons now, the very moment the Protestants take this stand that there can be no new revelation, they deprive themselves of every claim to authority from God in ministering holy things, unless it's derived from the Mother of Abominations, which is what they're calling the Catholic Church. No man taketh this ministry upon himself, says Paul, but he was called of God, as was Aaron. You think the first time you ever quoted that was on your mission. No. That this is being quoted by church members in the 1840s. It is plain that Aaron was called by Revelation. One of the prophets at reproving the corruptions of the priesthood says as follows. The priest's lips should keep knowledge and receive the law at God's mouth. Revelation is inseparably connected with the priesthood as an unchanging principle from all eternity to all eternity. Where there is no gift of revelation, there can be no priesthood. And where there is no priesthood, there can be no ordinances of God. And where there are no ordinances of God, there can be no Church of God. All doctrine, ordinances, gifts and blessings pertaining to the Church of God spring from an inspired priesthood as directly as a stream flows from a fountain or as fruit is produced from a tree. As well might a man attempt to produce apples or figs independent of a tree. As to expect a church of Christ to be in existence without apostles, prophets, and etc. And to administer the ordinances and blessings thereof. Since the great apostasy from primitive Christianity. Now this is again, 1842. So you think the term great apostasy is something that you just, you know, you built some apostasy cups on your mission and that. No, this is, this is how we've been teaching the truth for a long time. Although they didn't have, you know, plastic cups to build their apostasy cups out of.

[B]

Of course I did. So I think that there are a few things that have brought more people to the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ than red solo cups with a picture of someone that could be Matthias on them.

[A]

Yeah, I love the fact that we're just, we're just inventing what they look

[B]

like a hundred percent.

[A]

Here's James the West. And you always kind of felt bad about that because you're like, I mean, I'm sure you were like, pretty great guy too. Like, I feel like James the Less. You know, like, what would we think of Scotty Pippen if he hadn't been with Jordan?

[B]

Well, it's a good point, actually. It's a, it's a fair point. It's one of those things where Michael Jordan was so good that he got two people into the all time 50 top 50 list. But that's got to make Scottie Pippen feel bad, as I assume that James the Less. James the Lesser. That's hilarious.

[A]

James the Less is sitting there like, I mean, I'm good, I'm smart, I can do stuff.

[B]

Yeah, he's, he's Fredo from Godfather.

[A]

I mean, obviously the edited version. But yeah, I mean, I don't, I feel like that's, that's rough. I mean, to go down through all recorded Christian history is the Less.

[B]

Well, but so the Bible. Does the Bible call him the less? Or that's just Catholic teaching that calls him the Less.

[A]

As far as Referencing him, I think. Yeah. It's just the Bible says tradition, that calls him the lesser.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I think the Bible calls him James, the son of Alphaeus.

[B]

Yeah. Which Alphaeus is Aramaic for less.

[A]

No, I mean, look, we all know any son of Alphaeus is gonna. He's just gonna be. He's not going to put it 100%. He's cutting out early. He's asking Judas if there's any more money in the bag. I mean, it's. I don't know, obviously.

[B]

Does anything good come from Alphaeus? I think that's the line.

[A]

But the argument that's being made here is, let me get this straight. For all Protestants, the Catholic Church is horrible, corrupt, evil. All of their teaching about salvation is false. All of their teaching about purgatory is false. Else. All of their teaching about how salvation is administered, about last rites, extreme unction, about confession, about the transubstantiation in the sacrament of the Lord's Supper, all of those false things are absolutely false, every bit of it. But they just so happen to be right on everything else, right? So they're completely right about the nature of God. They were right about the nature of Jesus and the Council of Chalcedon. They were right about the nature of the Spirit, Holy Spirit's relationship to the Holy Trinity. They're right about everything foundational, but wrong, by the way, concurrently, because they're making these arguments at the same time. They happen to be completely wrong about that. And so it's this kind of weird thing where it's like, well, well, how do you know that they were right about the Trinity if they were wrong about something? Like, you have to be baptized to

[B]

go to heaven, because they believe those things at the same time. Like, I always struggled with that idea that, like, hey, this thing they're totally right on because this aligns to what we believe, but this thing they're not right about because it doesn't like their teachings about works and all these things. They're not like, hey, let's just get this Trinity locked down and then we'll start talking about all of the other

[A]

things, everything else, even though it was all going on concurrently. A great example, St. Augustine. Right. I mean, look, if you find a Protestant quoting an early Catholic father, I'm telling you right now, nine times out of 10, it's going to be St. Augustine, because Augustine is all about grace. I mean, it's Augustine's writings that are kind of like the. They are the kickstart to Martin Luther's Reformation. They inspire him so much, this idea that this unearned grace is what really saves you. And yet St. Augustine still says that you have to be baptized to be saved. So Augustine was just right about everything except for the way that you're actually saved. I mean, other than that, he was just dead on. And. And you're right. I mean, it is kind of a. It's a circular argument because they would simply say, yeah, but that's different. The Trinity we can prove with the Bible. We don't believe that they're right because of their counsel. We believe that they're right because the Bible says so.

[B]

Right, but like baptism, pick and choose what you want then.

[A]

Right, but baptism obviously can't be required for salvation of the thief on the cross.

[B]

Thief on the cross, that's exactly right. Yeah.

[A]

Or, I mean, you know, so. So you can see kind of how this goes, but you can see in if you're frustrated by it. Early Latter Day Saints are also frustrated. You're claiming that God couldn't possibly call any new prophets or apostles, even though the way he set up his church was to call new prophets and apostles. You're claiming that the Catholic Church is horribly corrupt and everything they taught is false, but you broke off from the Catholic Church, so how could you have any authority if they haven't had authority for a thousand years? Anyway, let me go on and finish. He says, since the great apostasy of primitive Christianity, all of the reformers of which have any knowledge of the fallen have fallen into this one inconsistency of patching new cloth onto old garments. And thus the rent has been made worse, the garment's been made worse. For instance, Protestants have sought a reformation in doctrine without a recommission and a new administration of ordinances. That's a very, very good way to describe the Protestant Reformation. The doctrine is wrong, but we don't need ordinances. Right. The Wesleyans. So these are followers of John Wesley, so primarily Methodist, but of course there's other Wesleyan groups. The Wesleyan sought a reformation in practice without a reformation in doctrine. The Irvingites sought to graft the gifts of the Spirit onto a corrupt church without a change of ordinances of the priesthood. The Reverend Alexander Campbell has attempted to restore the ordinances without the priesthood or the gifts of the Spirit. So, you know, even Campbell, who's like, we have got to get back to the primitive church, stops short of saying that people have to have authority to perform ordinances. The Friends or the Quakers have considered both priesthood and ordinances of no use. And the Spirit itself is sufficient, etc. Etc. Thus all attempts at reformation have failed to produce the desired effect. Ages have rolled away and the rent is still made worse. And the new wine has burst the old bottles. And thus the bottles of wine have been lost and destroyed. At length the full time had arrived for the great restoration of all things to commence, and for the great and last dispensation to be ushered into the world. The Lord uttered his voice from the heavens, a holy angel came forth and restored the priesthood and the apostleship. And hence has arisen the church of the saints. New in priesthood, new in ordinances, new in spirit, gifts and blessings. It claims no affinity with the mother of harlots or any of her daughters. That's in a quote. So, you know, don't hold that against me. I'm reading this, okay. It denies the ordinances and priesthood which have grown out of their roots. In short is a new tree, a new fruit, new wine, new bottles, new cloth and new garments, new leaven and a new lump, A new covenant and spirit, may it rule till we have a new heaven and a new earth, that we may dwell forever in the new Jerusalem while old things pass away and all things are made new. So I don't. I probably, I mean, I probably went a little bit too far in reading with that. You know, obviously, since we are quite a ways into the podcast, maybe we should just stop answering listeners questions.

[B]

Yeah, I think we should.

[A]

And just, I mean, our podcast is built on it. Our podcast has done it now for six seasons. What if we just stopped doing it all together?

[B]

Well, we could just do one, you know, and then dive into the Book of Enoch.

[A]

We did just do one.

[B]

Well, I mean, one and a half, two.

[A]

We only answered one question.

[B]

It's true. Do you don't feel like you're going to get the whole Book of Enoch in 20 minutes?

[A]

Well, it's 20 minutes plus. How many episodes have we had?

[B]

Here's the fifth one.

[A]

Wow. Wow.

[B]

So think about that. We just had general conference and our next podcast is the Book of Enoch Part 5. We, we've got our, we've got our, our finger on the pulse of what the kids are into, gospel wise.

[A]

I feel, yeah, that's what I feel like. I feel like a lot of missionaries ask us like, I just need to know more about Enoch. I just need to know more about Edict. And we're like, we'll get to you, we'll get to you, but we don't ever get there. Right. I mean, that's unfortunate. Well, just suffice to say Catholics do claim that authority is necessary. They believe that authority descends from what apostles gave to the church by way of the bishops. But they don't claim, at least not in a larger creation of scripture sense, continuing revelation. They certainly believe in inspiration and in miracles. And as you well know, since you're asking the question, I mean there are many millions and millions and millions of just incredibly righteous Christians who are Catholics and Protestants. And I think that's, you know, part of the reason why in the in Nauvoo when they set up the city, in a time when there was a lot of animosity towards Catholics and other non Protestants, that they passed a city ordinance, an ordinance in relation to religious societies. Be it ordained in the city council of the city of Nauvoo that Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists, Baptists, Latter Day Saints, Quakers, Episcopalians, Universalists, Unitarians, Muhammadans and all other religious sects and denominations whatever shall have free toleration and equal privileges in this city. And should any person be guilty of ridiculing, abusing or otherwise deprecating another in consequence of his religion or of disturbing or interrupting any religious meeting within the limits of this city, he shall on conviction thereof before the mayor of the municipal court be considered a disturber of the public peace and fined in any sum not exceeding $500 or imprisoned not exceeding six months, or both at the discretion of the mayor or court. So I mean, this ordinance is saying you cannot disrupt the worship practices of anyone who lives in this city now guilty of ridiculing, abusing or otherwise deprecating another. Now I think you probably have a really hard time enforcing that as it went further up the line given the first Amendment, but certainly the idea that you can go interrupt someone else's religious services, you know, that I think you could see even today that there's something that people feel pretty strongly about that there's a difference between saying, yeah, I just don't really like Baptists and then going inside of a Baptist church and chanting, you're all going to burn in the hell we don't believe exists. I mean that that's probably not, first of all, not a way to get converts.

[B]

No, it's not. It's less effective for sure.

[A]

Very less effective. Anyway, great question. But yeah, we'll move on. We last left you. We kind of left you on a cliffhanger. I mean, as much as, as much as talking about edict for the fifth time can be a cliffhanger. We were talking about how Enoch had been a ministering angel that came and visited Paul. And then in that context, Joseph is going to teach about translation and vis a vis resurrection. Translation was a doctrine whereby men were taken immediately into the presence of God and into any eternal fullness. But this is a mistaken idea, so I'm repeating what I finished off last time. Their place of habitation is that of the terrestrial order and a place prepared for such characters he held in reserve to be ministering angels unto many planets and who as yet have not entered into so great a fullness as those who are resurrected from the dead. Now that. Strap on some hip boots. It's time to go walking into the deep doctrine that Joseph is just casually throwing out there. I mean, yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why they're translated so they can go minister to other planets. All right, who's got the. He's got the closing hymn. Is that. Is that you bring them.

[B]

I mean,

[A]

I mean, John Taylor, you've got a good voice. Come on up here. Again, he doesn't elaborate on that. So, so I'm not going to be able to elaborate, but let's, let's keep going. He says, see Hebrews, chapter 11, part of the. Of the 35th verse. Other were tortured, not accepting deliverance that they might obtain a better resurrection. Now it is evident that there was a better resurrection, or else God would not have revealed it to Paul. Wherein then can it be said a better resurrection? This distinction is made between the doctrine of the actual resurrection and the doctrine of translation. The doctrine of translation obtains deliverance from the tortures and sufferings of the body, but their existence will prolong as to their labors and toils of the ministry before they can enter into so great a rest and glory. But on the other hand, those who were tortured, not accepting deliverance received an immediate rest from their labors. See Revelations. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, blessed are the dead who die in the Lord. For from henceforth they do rest from their labors, and their works do follow them. They rest from their labors for a long time, and yet their work is held in reserve for them that they are permitted to do the same works after they receive a resurrection. So again, we're going on about this because he referenced Enoch about whether or not Enoch had been resurrected. And the standard biblical commentaries of the time are saying essentially that resurrection and translation are the same thing or that there's no difference between the two of them. And Joseph is taking a, A pretty, a pretty, you know, strict stance to say, yeah, there really is a big difference. And then he describes them. Now he's going to reference Enoch again. This again is not exhaustive of every time that he's going to reference Enoch, but it's actually only a few months later when he's writing a letter to the quorum of the twelve Apostles. He's going to reference Enoch in what he wants the saints to become. Let the saints remember that great things depend on their individual exertion and that they are called to be co workers with us. And that the Holy Spirit, in accomplishing these great works of the last days, and in consideration of the extent, the blessings and the glories of the same, let every selfish feeling be not only buried, but annihilated. Let the love of God and man predominate and reign triumphant in every mind that their hearts may become like unto Enochs of old, so that they may comprehend all things past, present and future, and come behind in no gift, waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The work in which we are unitedly engaged in is one of no ordinary kind. The enemies we have to contend with against our subtle and well skilled in maneuvering. It behooves us then to be on the alert to concentrate our enemies. Sorry, concentrate our energies. Our enemies are already. They're already concentrated that we don't have to worry about, but to concentrate our energies and that the best feeling should exist in our midst. And then by the help of the Almighty, we shall go on from victory to victory and from conquest to conquest. Our evil passions will be subdued, our prejudices depart. We shall find no room in our bosom for hatred. Vice will hide its deformed head, and we shall stand approved on the side of heaven and be acknowledged as the sons of God. Here's that again, a reference to the sons of God. What's the. The people who become righteous. Let us realize that we are not to live to ourselves, but to God. And by so doing, the greatest blessings will rest upon us, both in time and in eternity. I mean, boy Joseph, he's. He. He knows how to cut right to the heart of the matter and speak very clearly. He's using Enoch here as an example. The Enoch had, you know, everything shown to him, but it's because he had created this city and created himself as someone who little by little overcame his evil passions, little by little moved away from hatred and vice, and eventually became so really, Enoch is this great example that mortals, humans, although it's hard to believe when I'm looking at myself in the mirror, obviously have the ability to continue to get better until they become like Enoch. And that's the whole promise of the city of Zion, that we become so focused on the things of God that we give up the things of this world and we let them go. One more reference I'll share, and that's later in Joseph's life in 1843, where he's going to talk about how prophets. Again, it's in reference to the fact that these prophets have prayed for our day and rejoiced in it. He says that all the prophets will have something to do in this work. It required more faith than they had so. Than they had so wicked died in the faith without enjoying that period. This is. These are notes of a sermon. So it's, you know, it can be choppy. They were not able to accomplish it. Prayers were heard. When Adam looked down, he saw the glorious period. He prayed for that time. So Enoch, Noah and all of the others saw it. They saw it would come when the day should usher in. All had their work assigned to them to have a part, a role. Adam is to come and organize a great council and prepare them for more. Would not be able to abide the day were it not that Adam has sent forth. A council is set. A council sets things in order. Jesus comes to the ancient of days and then he is delivered. As Daniel says, not like the secular religion. There is a vast difference. We believe in miracles. Angels administer heavens open, prepare his people. Revelation alone might be whole, might be the whole difference. Back to our original point. Revelation alone might be the whole difference. And then it's just a note. It says blind guides. They don't know what is going to take place because they have no revelation. They wander in the dark. So I think this is an important point. Again, we are often sent emails of people who are, who listen to a podcast, you know, probably a more entertaining one than ours, but certainly not one that's holding to the doctrine of the church as much that are, you know, saying, oh, I'll bet this is. This is about the second coming. Oh, I'll bet this is about the second coming. And they're looking for signs and wonders. And that's great that they want to make sure that they've got their lamps full. And to that extent, great. But the whole point of being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that we have continuing revelation. If you follow the current prophet, you are going to be as prepared as you can be. That doesn't mean that you're going to be freed from all of the Negative things that happen. But it does mean that you will be ready. And even if you die in the tribulations that lead up to the Second Coming, you'll be taken home to God. And that's the risk all of us take every single day of our lives. Now, in closing, I know we're out of time. Richard's shaking his head. He's dancing around. He said, what about Fun with Numbers? I've cut off Fun with Numbers for now. I said, you come back from Kenya, we'll talk about Fun with Numbers.

[B]

You're hoping I don't come back?

[A]

Well, I mean, it would be. If we establish a segment on this show and then you go into a hotbed of malaria and yellow fever. I mean, I think it's only prudent, right, that we just wait on it.

[B]

It's fair. It's a fair.

[A]

Numbers for me is like, there were three witnesses and there were also eight witnesses. Let's add those up. That's Fun with Numbers for me.

[B]

That's funny.

[A]

So Hyrum Smith gave some pretty interesting commentary when he was the co Prophet of the church, right? He's elevated by Joseph and the Lord in 1841. And this is shortly before both Joseph and Hyrum are murdered. This is in the council of 50 minutes. Hyrum directly references Enoch and the power that he had. Hyrum Smith said to the observations by our president, which was Joseph, they so well accorded with his own feelings that he wanted to say a few words. When Moses was appointed to lead the people, God gave him Aaron to speak for him. When God called Enoch, Enoch wanted to know why God had done so. Inasmuch as he was an illiterate man, etc. God told him to go forth and God would justify his words. Enoch went forth in the exercise of faith, not in the exercise of great words. God walked with Enoch 300 years. Moses had power before him. Mount Sinai trembled and shook to the center. Had Moses not gone forth in the exercise of faith, he would not have accomplished the work which God had sent him to do. We stand in the same light. We have a greater power and are called to do a greater work. We have more power than Enoch and have a greater work to do than Enoch had. And we shall accomplish it. I mean, now that is just going to make you feel bad, like, well, I'm pretty sure I haven't created a city of God on earth. But I love first of all the two things that Hyrum Smith is teaching there. One, there are a lot of people who love to talk. Yep. Obviously, some people create their own podcasts against their will and then continue to do them long after no one cares and no one listens. But faith, the faith that's necessary to transform the world, the faith that's necessary to transform your life, it isn't about pretty words. It isn't about knowing the right thing to say. It isn't about knowing every single step that you're about to take. It's about believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and that this really is his church. And so that when he commands you to do something, even when there doesn't appear to be a way, you go forward in faith and you do it as he said. Yes, Sinai trembled before Moses, but it trembled because without knowing how it would happen, Moses went forward with faith. Enoch was a remarkable prophet, far more involved that, you know, we know because of continuing revelation than others do. But Enoch went forth in the exercise of faith. What made him great was not his great words. What made him great was his faith and obedience. And I think that that's a really great example for all of us, both personally to try to emulate and then collectively as Latter Day Saints. If we want to become a Zion people, Zion is a people and a place. You've got to have people who love God and who love each other more than they love themselves. And that, I mean, that is the whole point of our trials here in mortality, to become something else, to even by the tiniest of degrees, become the type of person that our Savior Jesus Christ was and is to be someone who chooses love, who chooses faith, who chooses obedience instead of choosing yourself. I thought I would end off there, but there's one last one I thought I'd share. One last. Just. Just throwing it out here because I want, you know, since we're talking about the second Coming and. And whatnot, I thought I'd, you know, let's. Let's get a little later sermon in here, right from Wilford Woodruff's journal. And this is a sermon from Orson Pratt, and he is waxing pretty poetic and long about it. This is from 1851, but he least opines, or at least he presents in this. In this talk something about the city of Enoch and its. Its restoration to the earth. I do not believe the resurrection will take place by being born again as the doctrine of some. Right. So some people believe that, you know, that the resurrection be literally, you'd be rebirth. Right. I would not believe it for the world unless President Young was to say that the Lord revealed it to him. So good. Good catch there, Orson Pratt. You know, he's like, there's no possible way this is true unless Brigham Young says it tomorrow. And then it's absolutely true. So that's how we'll know whether or not. Honestly, I love that. I wish all of us could absolutely adopt the same spirit where you can really have strong feelings about things. As long as there's a caveat. That is, unless President Oak says something different tomorrow. And if he does, everything I said was false. You listen to him. I love the caveat that Orson Pratt throws out there. I believe the saints will arise out of their graves, as Ezekiel said they would. The resurrection will take place before the Son of man comes, as the Scriptures declare. Before he comes, there should be a great sign appear in the heavens, and all the nations of the earth shall see it together. An angel shall sound his trump that all nations will hear it, saying that Babylon will be burned. And then after half an hour of silence, the veil of the covering will be taken off the face of heaven, and it will be revealed, and the face of the Lord will be unveiled, and the graves of the saints will be open, and the saints on earth will be caught up to meet the Lord. This is the first resurrection. The Zion of Enoch will also appear, and it will dwell on earth. The saints will then receive their everlasting inheritance. So you know the way, Orson Pratt. And again, this is coming from Moses, chapter 7, 62, and 63. He sees this Enoch's role as being a part of the ushering in of the resurrection, happening at roughly the same time that the city of Enoch will return with all of its translated hosts. So thank you so much for joining us. Will our next free episode actually be live?

[B]

Yeah, we'll be able to actually talk about General Conference and how incredible it was.

[A]

I believe also the national championship game will have already happened, and we'll have to talk about what an amazing bracket I had or not talk about it at all.

[B]

That's exactly right.

[A]

Those are the two options. So thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time,