S6E17 Jingle Bells and the United Order

Summary

Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth

Episode: S6E17 - Jingle Bells and the United Order
Date: April 30, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat & Dr. Richard Leduc

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc blend trademark humor, deep faith, and historical expertise to address a range of listener questions. The main themes include the origins and cultural context of "Jingle Bells," an exploration of the United Order in Latter-day Saint history, coping with grief and loss, and the power of lived faith. The episode is rich with personal anecdotes, empathetic responses to deeply personal listener emails, and a signature deep dive into unexpected corners of history.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Personal Reflections and Grief (00:56–07:56)

• Richard expresses gratitude for the support he received after the recent loss of his father.
• The hosts exchange stories about showing up for friends in hard times and finding comfort in Joseph Smith’s teachings at funerals.
• Memorable Quote:

  "You can pretend to care, but you can't pretend to show up." – Dr. Dirkmaat (02:01)

• Richard shares how humor and community have helped him cope with loss, highlighting the healing power of laughter and friendship during grief.

2. African Church Growth & Showing Christian Love (06:14–13:15)

• Richard describes his temple trip to Africa, noting rapid Church growth (Kenya expanding from 18 to 75 congregations).
• He shares a story about a food vendor with misconceptions about Latter-day Saints who, upon witnessing the community’s joyful service and Christ-centered worship, wanted to learn more:

  “They lied to me about all of this stuff.” – Food vendor’s realization (11:57)

• Takeaway: Living the gospel with love and service often changes hearts more effectively than argument or debate.

3. Listener Emails: Faith, Humor, and Deep Trials (15:55–36:03)

• The hosts read several heartfelt listener emails, including:
  • A couple using “Angry Garrett” podcast clips for comic relief during childbirth (17:15–19:13).
  • A listener, Garrett, shares the pain of his young wife’s terminal illness, expressing how the podcast and stories of early Latter-day Saints help sustain his faith.

    “I at times have felt to despair. But the Lord has not forsaken me. I have come to know him in more profound ways.” – Listener Garrett (24:06)

  • Both hosts offer empathetic, gospel-centered responses, reflecting on how profound loss brings sharper focus to core LDS beliefs about resurrection and eternal family.

    “Death is the only thing for which there is no ability to recompense and to fix for humans ... yet we’re told that somehow ... all of our losses are going to be made up to us.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (26:20)

4. Theological Tests & Closeness to God in Suffering (36:03–36:09)

• Richard shares how trials test the depth of faith:

  “Is this something that I really believe?...Comfort and peace has come through actual prayers that are far more fervent now than they may have been two weeks ago.” – Dr. Leduc (35:30)

5. Teen Listener Q&A: Jingle Bells and United Order (36:41–64:29)

• 16-year-old Abigail writes in with questions about misleading Thanksgiving claims about “Jingle Bells,” and about the United Order.
• Jingle Bells Discussion (39:59–62:13):
  • Dr. Dirkmaat delivers a comprehensive and unexpected deep dive:
    • The song was originally "One Horse Open Sleigh", written by James Lord Pierpont before the Civil War.
    • It was popularized not strictly as a Christmas song and was performed by blackface minstrel groups, reflecting complicated and uncomfortable aspects of American musical and racial history.
    • The “Thanksgiving song” narrative is traced back to its early church performances but is largely misplaced today.
    • Frederick Douglass’s 1848 biting denunciation of minstrel shows is cited as a contemporary critique of the practice.
  • Memorable Quotes:

    “The dirty little secret of Jingle Bells is actually that when it was written...was by minstrel groups in the United States.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (44:55) “Let me tell you what Frederick Douglass said about minstrel shows.” – Dr. Leduc, summarizing the surprising turn of the discussion (61:13)

• Fun with Numbers – Christmas Song Recordings (65:13–66:21):
  • "Jingle Bells" has been recorded 89,000 times, surpassed only by "Silent Night" (137,000) and "White Christmas" (128,000).
• United Order Teaser (62:46–67:41):
  • Abigail asks for a clear definition of the United Order and how it was practiced.

    “It’s one of those things where it’s practiced differently in different locales. So every experience is going to be a little bit different.” – Dr. Dirkmaat (66:50)

  • The hosts postpone a full exploration, promising more depth next episode.
  • Light teasing of Abigail (and her parents) ensues, in keeping with the podcast’s playful tone.

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Notable Quotes and Moments

• On loss and faith:

  "It will drown those horrible pains and experiences we had in this mortality... The only real way I believe to have peace and comfort in the midst of horrible trials is to have the answers about the atonement of Christ and the restoration of his church." – Dr. Dirkmaat (28:40–29:30)

• On misinformation:

  “If we live the way that the Savior wants us to live, these things have a way to work themselves … through.” – Dr. Leduc (12:51)

• On historical perspective:

  “I cannot express adequately to everyone how popular minstrel songs were in America in the 1840s, 50s and 60s...” – Dr. Dirkmaat (48:18)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:56–07:56: Personal reflections on grief and friendship.
• 06:14–13:15: Church growth in Africa and Christian love overcoming prejudice.
• 15:55–36:03: Reading and discussing listener emails about trials and faith.
• 39:59–62:13: Jingle Bells’ real history and cultural context.
• 65:13–66:21: Fun facts: The most recorded Christmas songs.
• 62:46–67:41: United Order question teaser (full answer to come next episode).

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Tone and Language

• The tone is warm, candid, and humorous, even as it wrestles with weighty topics like loss, prejudice, and historical complexity.
• Language is playful and accessible, with detailed historical asides and frequent good-natured ribbing between the hosts.
• The hosts’ faith in Jesus Christ and commitment to helping listeners navigate complex Church history issues is ever-present.

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Summary

This episode blends earnest faith with scholarly depth and disarming humor. From the surprising roots of "Jingle Bells" to the practical theology of coping with loss, Drs. Dirkmaat and Leduc invite their audience into a warm, insightful, and faith-affirming experience. Listener questions drive the conversation, providing a snapshot of real-world joys and challenges among Latter-day Saints today. The show wraps with promises for more on the United Order next time and thanks to loyal listeners whose stories and support inspire every episode.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and I am joined, or maybe I should say cheerio, to my co Host and friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. I really mean it this time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Really.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thanks for having me back. I listened to last last week's episode that you did with your brother and

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

it made you want to move pipe.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It did. I immediately went and changed all the passwords again because I'm like, dallin's too good and if I don't do something to separate myself, then I am out of here. And so I changed the passwords. You no longer know them and thanks for having me back.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I assume that they are all some derivation of Philastus hurlbut.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So yes, they are. It's some combination of Flas, Hurlbut, John C. Bennett and Oklahoma State. I've just weaved them all together seamlessly. Hashtag gopokes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, it was nice of Dallin to fill in, but of course, just to fill in. Very, very nice. We got to reminisce a little bit about Idaho and we did have several people email saying that they have also moved irrigation pipe and also been attacked by flies in the fields.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, that's very nice. I will say on a personal note, you and your brother and actually so many Littners were so incredibly kind to me. You drove through the night like Santa Claus. Yes, to be there for my dad's funeral. One of my favorite quotes that you say all the time is you can pretend to care, but you can't pretend to show up. And I was overcome with just how kind you and your beautiful wife and so many other friends and family were for that. That was terrible. And I love my dad very much and you gave me a couple of really great quotes. I don't know that this is necessarily the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The right time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The right time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, whatever. Actually, probably.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, there were a couple of. Well, no, I mean quotes from Joseph Smith.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, boy. There was me trying to comfort you as a friend and then there was me trying to quote Joseph Smith. I didn't know which one they were.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so I mean, Garrett the man. Well, so, you know, one of the things that. I mean, you. You said it in the thing we were about to record when my sister called to tell me that my dad passed away. And. And then. And, you know, you felt that it wasn't proper timing to record an episode at that moment. I felt that was very nice of you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, it seemed it. If it had been only 20 minutes earlier, I'd have said, come on, let's get going.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Let's just finish this up. One of the things. I don't know how people deal with grief and things, but you and I like to joke around about it, and that's one of the ways that I deal with it. And so you were an incredibly wonderful friend through this. I love you very much. It was very kind. The Littner as well, were absolutely sweet. Fewer people in the last two weeks have made fun of my intelligence and my reading, which I appreciated.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well. And you missed out on the entirety of having to explain your March Madness picks. I mean, that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They were so bad. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That was our gift to you in lieu of flowers.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They were so bad. They were so bad. We should do an episode sometime in the future. You've unfolded, unfortunately, had the passing of your younger brother and your father. And there were a couple of quotes, Joseph Smith quotes that you read at both funerals that I read at my father's. And they are just some of the most touching and beautiful sentiments ever. And I sobbed through them as I was reading them. That was a bad idea to try.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Pretty tough.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. But anyway, anyway, it was very. It was very kind. There was one other thing that I wanted to share as well. And we don't. We won't have, you know, time to dive into it here. We have four or five pregnant emails that we need to. Need to get to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I am currently stalling pregnant in the term of. These are pressing and we need to get to them. We mean people who had babies.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, people had babies or were in the process of having babies. Now my. I'm stalling a little bit as my outlook has frozen and I am seeing a buffering sign on the email. But I did want to think Richard

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

struggled reading emails before. Let's see if he can read them when they don't come up on his screen. Stay tuned.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I feel like I can't do much, much worse. So we had tell people why.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why you. You don't have them. I mean, because you're in England.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I am in England.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's why. Cheerio.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I do. I do Highly recommend. I was actually, I was just at the center of the Episcopalian Church, the Anglicans, the Church of England. I was in Canterbury earlier today. Yes. And so I. We had a work incentive trip to take myself. I highly recommend if you're about to have a very sad funeral, that the next day you fly to Europe. I think it's the only way to go. Big fan. And so anyway. Yes, so here I am. But we had our. The Sweetwater rescue temple trip to. To Africa and that was incredible. And there was one. There's a lot of stories and maybe we can do a bonus on some of the miraculous stories of some of these pioneers. Really, I think that the stat. I'm ballparking it here, but Kenya had something like 18 congregations three or four years ago. They have 75 congregations today. The church growth in Africa has been phenomenal. Sierra Leone, Nigeria, and others in Kenya as well. Yeah, Congo for sure. Anyway, it's been really incredible. There was one thing, though, and one story I wanted to share. As my outlook continues to buffer, and I've become actually now very concerned as that it is buffering far longer than anything.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's possible that there's some kind of unjust tax that the English expect you to pay on that email before you're allowed to read it. Like a stamp act of some kind.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So have you, have you ever driven in London before, Garrett?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes, I have, unfortunately. And angrily, yes. So, because you get taxed on where you drive and when you do it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So I drove in London before the congestion tax that exists in London, and then I drove afterwards. And my wife and I are dropping off the car at the Hertz dealership and the lady that's checking the car in, she said, now, did you drive in any of the congestion areas? And I said, I'm not sure if I did or not. And she said, okay, well, here are the congestion areas. And I wasn't exactly sure, right? I was like, ah, I don't know if I did or not. And she said, well, if you did drive in the congestion areas, it's £30. And then I said, no, I didn't drive in the congestion areas. And then she said, okay, well, but they have cameras. And so if they find that you did drive in the congestion areas and they find the license plate, then it's £100. And I said, oh, then I most definitely drove in the congestion areas.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I see. So as I'm envisioning the second half of this conversation, this woman has the same voice as the woman gathering filth from Monty Python in the Holy Grail. Just so we're all aware, just, just, you know how I'm building this conversation on the other half in my mind.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Oh, yeah, there's some lovely congestion areas down here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She's like, I didn't vote for you. Yeah, that's, I assume that you're like, were you in any congestion areas?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so there, you know, we, we often have the play. The Book of Mormon is an example of this. Or oftentimes I am also guilty of this, where I get upset by things that people say when they attack the church. Right. I'm defensive about it. Church means the gospel restored Gospel of Jesus Christ means the most to me of anything in the world. And so when people are brutal against it, I get upset and irritated and so I can, you know. So what happened in this particular case was. So we had a food vendor that was supplying food for all the folks that came in. We had 110 people come in to do temple work. And by the way, when they're coming in to do temple work, the temple work that they're doing is siblings and parents and grandparents. And I mean, it's incredibly spiritual and sweet and it's wonderful. Now, not that my 11th aunt, 17 times removed, doesn't matter. Obviously she does. But I didn't know her nearly as well as my mom and dad. Right. Anyway, so we had the food vendor come in and when she came in, it's one of these big complexes. So you have the temple, you have a steak center, you have a family history center, you have a hotel and you have kind of food area, you have common area. So it's kind of a whole complex. And there's a huge Christus statue that's right in front there. And so when she came, she had been told that we worshiped the devil and we didn't believe in Jesus and, you know, playing the hits. And so she comes and she's, you know, the first time she's bringing food in and my wife is, you know, helping to serve and other people that are there helping to serve food and then doing the dishes and just, you know, and it's a whistle while you work situation. You know, you're so tired and you're doing all this stuff, but everybody's happy and everybody is so excited to be there. And you don't know anybody. I've said this before, but it's how you describe what Zion is, where we have, I mean, other than the fact that we're brothers and sisters, we have very little in Common and it doesn't matter, and we don't know each other and we love each other immediately. It's a very wonderful thing that happens there as you're serving at the temple. And so she sees this huge Christus statue and she just sees how everybody is interacting. And she's asking if we know. We don't know any of these people. Right. At least when we got there. And so she comments to my wife about how she'd heard all of these terrible things, and then she comes there and she sees how we interact, and she sees the focus on the Savior and the reaction that she then has is, they lied to me about all of this stuff. So my wife gets her a Swahili Book of Mormon and, you know, is going to coordinate with the missionaries to go and teach because she's very interested in whatever. It's one of those things where I can get overly worked up about people attacking on the church. And the reality is that if we live the way that the Savior wants us to live, these things have a way to work themselves, work themselves through. Anyway, I thought that was a great example of that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And also, I'm still going to get angry. Part of this was like a therapy session. Like, so, you know, Garrett, instead of getting mad when people say that Joseph Smith's a false prophet, you could just, you know, be kind to them and they'll know that he was a prophet. Nope, not me. No. I don't care what you say. I have a problem. And there is a. You know, I'm generally a relatively difficult person to arouse my. My ire.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, we do have a dandometer that measures your dander. But, yes, I agree with you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. I mean, it's not like I'm, like, walking around like, who put peanuts in my Cracker Jacks and, you know, just slamming them down. I'm not stalking through the house screaming all day unless. Unless someone can't find their shoes. That's. Someone can't find their shoes when I told them to get those shoes and we have to leave, then that's. Yeah. Not finding shoes, that's. That's prime.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so. So losing the shoes was always. But losing the socks was the one for me when the kids. Because we'd show up at a place. Right. We have five kids. We have five kids, right? So we've. We've got. We've got. Between my wife and myself, well, we don't take our shoes off, but we're looking at. We're looking at 10 shoes. We're looking at 10 socks.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And we're. That's how we show up to the house. And when I say house, I mean any. Literally any house. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You mean McDonald's play place.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It mattereth not which house. Or. Yeah, which play place. Or with whatever we're gonna leave with seven socks and maybe four shoes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Nine shoes. Somehow there's one shoe that's not. Or someone else's shoe.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, we're still in someone else's shoe. Yeah, for sure. Now, I got good news, and I've got. I've got more good news. The good news is, is that outlook is completely frozen on my computer, but I do have it on my phone.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, there we go. Well. Oh, wow. Do you want me to just take over the reading of them to spare everyone?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What's. What's Dallin up to?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, we could get. Let's get Dallin on the live. It'll be, you know what? And we'll keep this live. It will be like, you know, who wants to be a Millionaire? When you call. Somebody was called Dallin on the other line. Like, hey, what are you doing right now? Can you read this email? And then we'll.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Richard has one job is to pay his outlook bill, and he's not doing it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, he's obviously. Like I said, though, for all you know, there's a congestion tax, and you're. You're looking at it. But here, I can. I can start. While we're. While we're, you know, lovely looking at this. We got an email that. So if you recall, Dallin and I on the podcast that we did. What do you have again?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

An amazing one that we've gotten rave reviews on. You know that one. It was. It was. It was just. Just, you know, out of the park. We read an email from Braden, and he was talking about how his wife wanted clips of me angry to get her through her delivery.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's funny.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, we assumed that she'd already had the child. Well, we got an email from Ariana letting us know that she, in fact, had it. So this was her email. The in Labor Guarantee, Dr. Dirkmot and Leduc. And by the way, she spelled Leduc correctly, so I think now she does later spell Garrett incorrectly. So there's that.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She adds in several. Several Rs, several Ts. Now I do now have it pulled up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, do you want to take over reading it?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I very, like, desperately.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, go ahead.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay. I'm currently in labor with our third child and would like to cash in on the in labor guarantee having this email read, even if it doesn't happen until the child is opening her mission call.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I love how they hedge their bets on that. Very good.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, it's very good. My husband, Braden and I are big fans of the podcast and especially Angry Garrett. In fact, I had planned to listen to a compilation of Garrett going hard in the paint against fornicating fornicators and extreme anti Mormons to get me pumped for pushing, but it was not to be as things progressed too fast.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Are you saying it would help in labor to have me saying something like, what about the shaman's balding manuscript go off as you do a double reverse 7 20?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, yeah, it's one of those. I assume it's one of those things where, like, if I'm listening to it, the faster I can push this baby out, the sooner we can turn it off. I feel like that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, yeah, it makes sense. It's like a kind of torture. Like. Like when they went to go get Manuel Noriega and they broadcast rock music into the. Into the place until he gave up. He was like, if I have to listen to sticks one more time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Thank you for your beautiful testimonies. Your presentation of historical background together with earnest faith have strengthened our testimonies and love of the gospel. You have helped us see beautiful and unique truths of the restored gospel in the greater context of Christianity. By the way, I did have. We're not going to have time to get to it today. I had a whole Fun with Numbers segment on General Conference, but since we're now currently preparing for the October session,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

and I believe Fun with Numbers was banned, if you recall, to the point where I believe you even heard Dallin tried to hornswoggle it in and got kneecapped.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, no, he did. Yeah. Full Nancy Kerrigan. Many times I have tried to fit the square peg of my beliefs into the round hole of Protestantism where it doesn't belong. I'm proud to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and your podcast has helped me appreciate what we have. My husband and I have a special place in our heart for the prophet Joseph. We were sealed in Nauvoo and named our firstborn Joseph. Thank you for your righteous efforts to defend the name of that wonderful man with fact and faith. Thanks again for everything you do, Arianna and Braden.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, very, very nice. What a kind.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And by the way, I would also like to say this is the last thing about my dad. I swear, I'm not going to just keep Shoehorning it in. But my dad was a big fan of the podcast, and he listened to every episode multiple times. And when she said what a big fan she is of the prophet Joseph Smith, that was one thing that I loved about my father, is he had the strongest testimony of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and of the prophet Joseph Smith, and loved this podcast. And he often spoke about how much he loved it. He would tell you and me to quit dabbling in the deep stuff. I don't know if you recall that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, he thought we were doing deep doctrine. If we were talking about, you know, whether or not trinitarian theology was like, what is this deep doctrine you're talking about? It's the Nicene Creed, Dan.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's true. Which is funny because. Because then he also did love your missionary. Your missionary pitch.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah, he loved. He loved the King Fallet sermon. He just didn't want any of us to talk about it, so.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Great. Anyway, anyways, I saw that. That was. That was very sweet. Thank you very much. And I'm sure that your lovely daughter, I assume her name is Josephina, we'll be going on her mission here in the next couple of months, and we look forward to adding her to the premium now. So, Garrett, this next one, this comes to us from Garrett, which is why

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

they got their email read always. If your name is Garrett, then there's at least a chance, in part because it means there's at least one word in the email that we know how to pronounce correctly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Though we've never met, I feel as though we are friends. My father grew up in Wendell, Idaho. Actually, we might actually be friends if you're from Wendell. My mother grew up in Wendell, Idaho. Some of my fondest memories are visiting Grandpa and Grandma Pope's dairy farm there. Though I grew up in Springville, Utah, I feel your stories of Idaho relate to my experiences. Lived through many visits to Idaho and how I was raised. Richard. My fourth grandmother was Sarah leduc. A few screenshots of her family tree show the relationship. No idea how we're related, but if you ever make a fortune off that acre, I would guess Sarah's posterity might be able to lay claim to some. My sister's name is Sarah. Sarah leduc, now Sarah Hoskins. Now that acre has been divided and

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

subdivided so many ways.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, so many ways. But, yes, I would very much. I'd like to see a DNA test before you lay claim to any of my land.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I like the fact that you think you're now getting Emails from people trying to claim land that your family hasn't owned since 1670.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Garrett's coming in as a bloodsucker, coming after my land, my homestead.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I was born and raised in a briar patcher, whatever the French Canadian equivalent is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Outside of identifying those loose connections, I want to thank both of you. I've listened to all the free content and look forward to each Thursday. Your faith, testimonies and humor strengthen me. I also am a premium subscriber and American history fascinates him. Condemned, repeated is outstanding in his opinion. It is great. You do a great job on that one, Garrett, by the way. We don't speak of that one enough. It's always faith here. We're always just reading scriptures and bearing testimony, but it's not set up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hey, we're working on the ratification of the Constitution right now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's thrilling.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You want to sign up for that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, 100%. I've been going through a rough period. My wife is in her early 30s and has a rare genetic disease that causes physical, mental and emotional changes. She's become a different person as the disease progresses and she declines. She was just accepted into a nursing home. It's been strange to slowly say goodbye to her over the last six years as I try to simultaneously enjoy the moments I have with my wife while also grieving the strange loss of her, while also raising her three young kids and work to provide. I at times have felt to despair. But the Lord has not forsaken me. I have come to know him in more profound ways. I trust him more. I turn to him sooner and I better recognize his voice and accept his grace in my life. Learning of Latter Day Saints who faced insurmountable odds and prevailed with the strength of the Lord inspires me. Laughing with each of you late at night once my kids are asleep as I do dishes and prepare for the next day lifts me up. I know struggles and challenges come to all. I am so grateful for how your podcast has helped me keep close to Christ. I wish to sincerely thank each of you. I feel your blend of humor and faith perfectly for me. I'll leave the inspired questions to others and end with a hope for many more laughs shared despite the distance in time between the recording and my listening. Your friend, Garrett, man.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I am very sorry to hear of the difficulties that you are going through, Garrett. Frankly, I can't say anything in the sense of, oh, I know what that's like, because I don't know what that's like. And I don't have the ability to. To say that I can't imagine how horrible and awful it is. And I'm. I'm very grateful if the podcast can help in any way as you go through an unimaginable trial, that is. That's terrible. And to be in the situation that you're in and, you know, to be in your 30s and to see your wife go to a nursing home is. I mean, that's a pretty good definition of Protestant hell. I think that's. That's about as. As horrible as things could possibly be. And I wish I. I wish I had the ability to. To fix things or make things right. I mean, I don't. And I know you weren't asking for that, but, you know, I think this is really one of the reasons why your email, Garrett, It's a great reminder to everybody listening. We get emails constantly from people who have, you know, all kinds of knickknack questions about this or that, and some are really deep, and some are really profound. You know, someone emailed, you know, me just the other day saying, you know, that they have a friend who's really, really struggling because they found out about the whole Adam God theory, and they don't know anything about it, and so they're losing their testimony. And I think to myself, look, I understand that we don't understand everything, but it's in these moments like Garrett is going through that, you know, the kinds of things that disappear in those moments. The minutia, the hypotheticals, the. Well, wait a minute. What about this? Or the. It stands to reason. Or Y doesn't X or Y doesn't Y? I'm not saying that those aren't valid questions. What I'm saying is, like, all things in this creation, they pale in comparison to the atonement of Jesus Christ. And the reason why they pale is because death is the only thing for which there is no ability to recompense and to fix for. For humans, right? If I. If I have $1000 and $1000 is stolen from me, there's still a chance. Maybe not, but there's still a chance that I might make another thousand dollars. But when someone I love passes away or is going through this terrible struggle and with this disease, you know that that's a hole that can't be filled by anything else. And everybody who's lost somebody knows that. Everybody who's lost somebody knows that, yeah, you can get to where you're joking around again, but you're not. You're not ever completely the same again outside of the atonement of Jesus Christ. We are promised by the prophet Joseph Smith that the people we lost our. In our enjoyment, our sociality with them in the next life is going to be greater there than it would have been here. And so when we look at loss and we look at horrible trials like this in the short term, in the instant, in the now, it's very easy to say there is no possible way that this will ever be made up to me. This is pain that I will carry with me to the eternities and on forever. And yet we're told somehow, through the miracle of the atonement, that all of our losses are going to be made up to us. All of the pains, all of the tears. And I'm not saying we won't remember the pains we went through, but apparently the full brightness of joy that awaits us in the next life is so great and so glorious, our sociality with the people that we love will be so perfect and so complete that it will drown those horrible pains and experiences that we had in this mortality. And as we go on through eternities of feeling that joy and that perfect happiness with the people that we love, yeah, we'll remember just how hard and unfair some of our trials were on earth, but that pain is going to be replaced. And so, you know, the atonement of Jesus Christ, you know, frankly, is always the answer. And the reason why we talk about the podcast, you know, the way we do, the reason why we have it isn't just so that we can do, you know, history trivia on the ratification of the Constitution. It's because the only real way I believe to have peace and comfort in the midst of horrible trials in this life is to have the answers about the atonement of Christ and the restoration of his church that come from Joseph Smith and other living prophets. And so I appreciate your email, Garrett. I am very sorry. We will try to be more funny going forward, since you like to laugh with us. Apparently we did a bad job on this one. I'm gonna write these guys an email and they'll say something that will cheer me up. Oops. And, yeah, sorry about that, but anything to add there, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I will say I had. I had two friends kind of independently tell me something. They had previously lost a parent. And I thought it was an interesting bit of insight, which thing I had previously never supposed. And it was the idea that when they lost their relative that they were very close with and loved very much that it took some of the. Because one of the Things we do like to do in this podcast is talk about some of the theology and the logical and theological implications of certain beliefs on things. And we like to get in the weeds as they say.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you're telling me that knowing something about the Provo Central Stake Minute Book, that's what you're saying? That is a very subtle shot at me. I'm gonna bring Dallin on again.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'll get lie. I pro. I promise. I apologize. I will, I will. No, but. So no but the, the. The. They both said some. This that I thought was interesting is they said that when they experienced that they both were in a circumstance where they asked themselves, is this something that I really believe? Because I mean I say that I do and I live my life a certain way. But there are moments and you've said this before. I've lived a fairly charmed life. My upbringing was wonderful. My parents were great. I had good friends and good family and you know, other than being friggin super poor when, when you know, Becky and I were first married, our, our lives have been a charmed life. The, the, the challenges and the trials that we read about in these emails that are, they're difficult and heartbreaking have not been my life experience. It has been. I have been just blessed and everything has been great and my, my dad passing away has been one of the harder experiences that I've ever had in my life. And I was able to relate to that. Where is this something that I believe or is it not? And I will say in the last week or two weeks, actually it's been tremendous. Comfort and peace has come through the actual in prayers that are far more fervent now than they may have been two weeks ago. And in reading scriptures that is more thoughtful than may have been two weeks ago. Really having that test. I'm not saying it was great, but I am saying that perspective from those friends that went through it, I had not thought of it before and I have experienced that in the last two weeks. And as far as that goes, I have felt closer to Heavenly Father in the last two weeks than I have in some time now. That speaks more to my general lack

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

of dad pulling you along, even from the grave.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's awesome. Well, maybe on a little bit of a lighter note, we're going to, we're gonna, we have a 16 year old who emailed us and you know, she has some very interesting questions and because, you know, it's rare that we're getting questions from, you know, a teenager who for some Reason listens to the podcast. I can only assume that it's some kind of a punishment enacted by parents or you're in the back of officer Rs. You were arrested. I'm sorry.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, it is Abigail R. So maybe.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Actually, yeah, she's good to keep it separate, but we'll. We'll read this, and then we're going to answer some of these questions.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, yes, I'm real. I'm a relatively new litner to the podcast. I only discovered.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

She's got Littner down.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, she got Littner down. That's pretty good. I only discovered it after what happened in Michigan a few months ago. Well, that's. That is tragic. After I found out what happened and when I was done with my reaction to the news, you can likely figure out what that entailed. I was searching on Spotify for something that had no relation to you or the church. That's usually how people find us. People aren't like, hey, what's Richard and Garrett up to?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now they're like, what's the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow? And they're like, huh. Was this about the Book of Mormon?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We are huge in the Monty Python search for the Holy Grail subreddits.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's probably more than half of our listener base.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But an old episode, the one about whether or not Joseph used the Seer Stone, came up in my search, and it was a sort of comfort that day. And you never fail to make me laugh. You say that you are an acquired taste, but I swear I was born with that taste.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's awesome. Abigail. Abigail's our kind of people.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, she's. She's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Currently. Yeah. Friend of the show. Abigail. God chose that exact moment for me to find you for a reason that I am so grateful. But on from that, I have a few questions that I would like to ask you first. Some silly or some silly questions, and then some serious ones. We need more.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think Abigail wants us to answer the silly ones, I think.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, of course. But I also think Garrett wants us to answer the silly ones.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We'll find out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. First question. I was at a recital a few months ago in November. We're just getting to her email and one of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

One of the students recently. Okay. Like a week ago. Okay. Two weeks ago.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She didn't say what year. In November 2022.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In November 1947. I was at a recital. I'm a time traveler. My name is Abigail.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

One of her students was playing Jingle Bells. Her teacher justified this by saying that technically Jingle Bells is a Thanksgiving song, which, as far as I have been able to find, is false. I don't understand why people say that there's no evidence for that. But much to the contrary, and I don't. And don't you think that the. Technically, Jingle Bells is a Thanksgiving song should only be invoked if you are or if you play the original verses with the original chorus. I know this has nothing to do with church history, but I just have to get a second opinion on this. So before we get to her, her second question, which is about the United Order. Garrett, your thoughts on Jingle Bells and the lying liars that lie.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That say that say that it's a Thanksgiving song. Well, first of all, when she says that, there's no evidence. I mean, so let me. Let me say a little bit about Jingle Bells. Cause that's what I think most people tuned in for. They were like, I come for the church history. I stay for the jingle bells. I mean, the song actually originally written is called One Horse Open Sleigh. It later becomes Jingle Bells. But when it's originally written and that song is, you know, it's a very old. It's a very old song. I mean, it was published before the Civil War. And they're actually, you know, I know people say that. So the reason why they say it is that it was apparently First Son in connection with a church, that his brother. The person who wrote it, his name's James Pierpont, and. Sorry, James Lord Pierpont. Better get the Lord.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah, you gotta get the Lord Pierpont in there for sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, and he's related to Pierpont Morgan. Right. So the great. The great, you know, wealthy guy. But this song, you know, originates, you know, during a time when he is helping write some hymns for his, you know, brother's church, basically. Right. And so there was a practice in the 1860s, especially of people having days of Thanksgiving that were set aside, that this begins with, you know, Washington and, you know, with Lincoln, it eventually gets codified that, you know, you're. You. You're going to do it. The last sun, the last Thursday in November. Well, you know, this is a total side note on how Thanksgiving became a holiday, by the way. This has nothing to do with anything, and everyone can stop listening. But during the Great Depression, Theodore. I mean, Franklin Roosevelt actually changes the day that we celebrate Thanksgiving from the last Thursday in November because that November just so happened to have five Thursdays in it. And so he thought it was too close to Christmas. Right. So you wouldn't get. You need. The economy needs people to go out and buy, you know, little toy trains and little toy trucks and dolls. And so he changed it to the fourth Thursday, and that's what it's been ever since. But what's funny is the Republicans, of course, you know, Franklin Roosevelt, a Democratic president, surprisingly, the Republicans attacked him for it. And so they started calling Thanksgiving for a while. Democrat Thanksgiving is what they thought, because that was because it was moved or Roosevelt's Thanksgiving. But anyway, so it's in 1857 that the song is first written and. And it's published in 1857. There is. There are people that are performing it by September of 1857. Now, far more important than whether or not it was first performed, you know, in. On one of these Thanksgiving festivals is the nature of the song that it was, because the type of songs that James Lord Pierpont wrote. So he is. He's the son of a minister, and this minister actually happens to be someone who's involved in abolitionism. Well, he eventually moves to the South. He moves to Georgia, and he's actually well known for writing multiple songs for the Confederacy during the American Civil War. And the dirty little secret of Jingle Bells is actually that when it was written and when it was first performed was by minstrel groups in the United States. So.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yikes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. In fact, one of the earliest performers of it, you know, one of the earliest versions of it is One Horse Open Sleigh, and it's subtitled as sung by Bryant's Minstrels. So for those of you who don't know, there was a very popular, you know, look, this is some. This is some what you could get on the condemned repeated side of things. Huh? Huh?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, we're just driving. How many people listening right now are like, I've got to learn more about this. And they write to the right to condemn, to repeat it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, Abigail really set us up perfectly here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, thanks, Abigail. Great question, as always. Great show as always. So. So what had developed by the mid 19th century in America, and there's no way for me to explain this in a way that anyone will be okay with it in any way, and I'm not saying that you should be, but the most popular form of entertainment in America in the 1840s, in the 1850s and the 1860s, I mean, outside of obviously, you know, drinking and gambling, the most popular form of entertainment was minstrel shows. And you're thinking, well, what's a minstrel show? Well, it was troops of white performers who would put on blackface to pretend that they were black and then sing these songs as if they were often plantation slaves. I mean, and the crazy part about minstrel shows is there is almost no societal pushback, even among white abolitionists. Like, this is such a common form of entertainment that even though it's clearly mocking, you know, you know, black enslaved singers by the fact that you're a white person, putting shoe polish on your face rarely gets any kind of negative commentary. So look in. In this, one of these earliest publications, this is how you know the song went. Dashing through the snow In a one horse open sleigh over the hills we go laughing all the way that sounds very, very similar, right? Bells on the bobtail ring so we just cut the. The out, I guess now. Making spirits bright oh, what sport to ride and sing a slang song tonight Jingle bells, jingle bells Jingle all the way oh, what joy it is to ride Instead of, you know, fun oh, what joy it is to ride in a one horse open sleigh. Now the. The chorus is a little bit different. It's instead of jingle bells, jingle bells, the same note. It's jingle bells, jingle bell. It goes up, it goes jingle bells, jingle bells. You know, but anyway, I am not. I am not, as you might have already discerned, a master of musical theory. We should, we should have Andrew on the podcast and have him, you know, play the original version.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we should. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And then he can be associated with minstrel shows. Anyway, a day or two ago the story I must tell I went out on the snow and on my back I fell A gent was riding by In a one horse open sleigh he laughed as there I sprawling lay but quickly drove away. Now, you can kind of already see how this would be played out in a minstrel show, right, with someone over exaggeratedly, you know, falling down and slipping and kicking on the ground as someone goes by with a horse now the ground is white Go it while you're young Take the girls tonight and sing this slang song Just get a Bobtail Bay 240 as his speed hitch him to an open sleigh and crack, you'll take the lead so there you are, you know, it's. It's followed in this same book by songs that are far more, well, racist. And so it's published among songs that are very deliberately racist. What I mean by that is, so you have this white singing group, Brian's Minstrels, and they're often mocking or mimicking the way that black slaves spoke in Pidgin English because of course they are not taught, they're not educated, or some of them are brand new and they're just learning English. And so, you know, that's, it's a tried and true aspect of humor is making fun of someone who doesn't master the language. And so many of these songs do that, you know, where they're deliberately trying to sound like they are mispronouncing things. I mean saying things like d voice ob dis fair one was nigh instead of the voice of this fair one was nigh. Right. They're trying to mimic the, the difficulty in speaking that, you know, that that's caricatured upon, upon slaves. And again, I cannot express adequately to everybody how popular minstrel songs were in, in America in the 1840s, 50s and 60s. They are everywhere. Like I said, these, these people are going to, you know, this is not like, oh yes, of course they did that in the South. Minstrel shows are the most popular in the North. In the northern states is where they're really making their money. And Jingle Bells appears to have been written while dashing through the snow. One Horse Open Sleigh appears to have been written with the same kind of, you know, meter and was certainly performed at least among the first times by these traveling minstrel shows. Now it doesn't help that James Lord Pierpont went on to write multiple battle anthems for the Confederate States of America and served in the cavalry for the Confederate. So I mean, I wonder where his loyalties lie, you know, I mean, so there is that. I will say, though I don't want to just say, well, you know, back then it was fine and everyone thought it was fine because there was one person who did not think that it was fine. Now it's very difficult to find direct statements from, from white abolitionists or white anti slavery folks talking about just how ridiculous, you know, this, this minstrel singing is, you know, because it's, it's just so prevalent. But you can find a statement that's made by Frederick Douglass, one of the leading anti slavery advocates obviously in the United States. And Frederick Douglass, he will voice his great displeasure, let's put it that way. And where this comes about is there's a family singing group that comes to Rochester in 1848. Okay, so this is before dashing through the snow. So maybe you can feel okay about that. They're called the Hutchinson family. Well, the Hutchinson family is very different than traveling singing minstrel families because they are a bunch of traveling singing people that don't put on blackface. And they are instead of, you know, making light of slavery or that, you know, talking about, you know, how uneducated the slaves are in their songs, they are singing anti slavery songs as they travel around. Well, as you might imagine, what happens when the Hutchinson family goes around singing their songs and you have people who are not super happy with it? Well, they come out swinging on them, you know. And so Frederick Douglass published in a newspaper article, it's an abolitionist, a black owned abolitionist newspaper, The North Star, 1848, responding to this attack made by a local newspaper on the Hutchinson's. He says this, that this pro slavery narrow souled demon filled with pride and selfishness dreaded the presence of these high souled mountaineers in Rochester. It had no taste for their soul enlarging heart melting melody to defeat what it could not enjoy was its first object. The Hutchinsons were described as poor performers. Their popularity was said to be on the wane. Abolitionism had ruined them. Other modes were meanly adopted to disparage them in the estimation of the people of Rochester. In this mean work of detraction, we scarcely need to say that the miserable doe face who edits the cast paper in this city, it's making a pretty a doe face as a northern Democrat who's siding with pro slavery elements in the south because it's politically advantageous, right? Because, well, I want to win elections. So you're in favor of slavery? Well, not really, but I'm gonna be okay with it as long as we win elections. Now again, this is the 19th century. It wouldn't happen today, but in the 19th century there were people who believed nothing mattered more than winning a political election and they would do anything they could to win that election.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't believe it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's tough. I mean part of one of the tough parts of condemned to repeat it is wading through this crazy time in American history where people believed if you voted the wrong way, I had the right to hate you. It was crazy, just crazy. I mean just, it's shocking to the mind of all. But yeah, you can see how Frederick Douglass responds. And of course Frederick Douglass former slave I mean he is a lived experience of slaves as well as the leader of this anti slavery movement. You know, he's the one who very famously published an address, you know, on the 4th of July. You know, what is the 4th of July to a slave, right? You're going to celebrate your liberty with people that are enslaved. Fourth of July, it's meaningless to us because we aren't Free because of it. Something very similar. Obviously not anywhere near the same level of magnitude, but it's actually something very similar that the Latter Day Saints say in 1845 after Joseph's been murdered and dozens of people are being mobbed and armed forces are claiming that if they don't leave the United States they're going to kill them. The Latter Day Saints don't celebrate the fourth of July and basically say the same thing. What are we going to. We're going to celebrate our freedom to practice our religion. Is that what our plan is? I can't wait to celebrate the freedom we have while I'm being shot. What an amazing freedom I've discovered. So I think there's at least related in that. Anyway. He goes on to talk about this. This self elected umpire of taste in the city of Rochester claims as much skill in matters relating to the harmony of sounds as he assumes with respect to the harmony of colors. We warn the good people of Rochester against attending either seminaries or concerts on pain of being expelled from respectable and refined society should they venture to do so before obtaining the opinion of this most learned judge whose word is sufficient to set at defiance and veto the wishes of a whole seminary of young ladies and Mrs. The. The point I believe is that one of his daughters attempted to attend a religious seminary. And of course his daughter's black. And even though they didn't have rules against a black woman attending the seminary, this guy made such a big fuss about it, got her thrown out of being in the seminary. So this is 1848, right? So he goes on and, and this was the point of why I, I shared this. He says that the opinion of this most learned judge who set at Defiance a veto wishes the whole seminary. We believe that he does not object to the Virginia Minstrels, which is a blackface minstrel. Troops of white people putting on black paint. Christie's Minstrels, the Ethiopian Serenaders. So these are all very popular traveling bands of white singers who would put on black paint and, and essentially make these minstrel shows. These, these white blackface minstrel shows. He wouldn't object to them or any of the filthy scum of white society who have stolen from us a complexion denied to them by nature in which to make money and pander to the corrupt taste of their fellow white citizens. These performers are undoubtedly in harmony with his refined and elegant taste. Then those beautiful and highly sentimental songs which they sing such as Old Zip Coon, Jim Crow, Old Dan Tucker and Jim Along Josie and a few other of such Specimens of American musical genius, most spread over him a spirit of charm and awaken in his bosom a rapture only to be equaled by the celestial transport which thrills his noble heart on witnessing a tremendous squash. I mean, obviously, one of the things that Frederick Douglass is really good at is using satire to demonstrate the idiocy of the positions that other people are holding. And so while blackface minstrel shows are widespread in the country, and while they are generally accepted even by people that are opposed to slavery, you can see here Frederick Douglass specifically calling it out that these people put on, you know, their black paint to. To. To resemble a complexion. And, and you get an idea of what does he think of those songs. You know, Old Dan Tucker is a song that's been. It's been reinvented 50 times. You know, people don't generally associate it with being a. A pro slavery song. Well, obviously Frederick Douglass does. Right. You can see the way he responds to it. So that doesn't really answer your question, Abigail.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, no, Garrett, I think it does. I think it does. I'd like to recap if I could. Abigail sends in a question. Hey, Garrett. It really bothers me that people say that Jingle Bells is a Thanksgiving song. It isn't. Right. And the response is, let me tell you what Frederick Douglass said about minstrel shows.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think, Yes, I think. I think the problem with. The problem with Jingle Bells, if we're looking at a problem and its history, it's not whether or not it was performed for a Thanksgiving celebration or not. That's not the question. It's kind of like asking whether or not the person who committed, you know, a mass homicide, whether or not they have a permit for the weapon. It's like, I mean, okay, yeah, you know what, that's a good question to ask. Probably we're gonna, you know, focus a little bit more on the murders they committed.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so I. I mean, yeah, I think this is great. Now maybe what we do here is we read the second question. It's the tease. We talk about the United Order next episode because we are.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think I can probably get it quick. I'm not going to go deep on. I look, I'm going to go deep on Jingle Bells. That's what I order.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

United order. You're going to just glaze over.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not a glaze. It's more of a. It's a honey baked ham. It's. Well, so I do want to give her a little bit of an answer and maybe we'll go deeper next Time. I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, so the question I've heard quite a bit about, I've heard quite often of the United Order and how one of my several times great grandfather disliked it so much he left the church over it. Exactly what was the United Order? And then she throw. She throws shade at her parents. Their parents are catching strays. My parents explanation was unsatisfactory. And how did people actually use it?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Abigail, were you on your phone when your parents were describing it to you? Because now I have an image of you standing there chewing gum, head cocked to the side, staring at an Instagram reel. And your mom's like, you have to understand, Abigail, this was a sharing of resources. And you're like, got tada pie.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know why you're throwing shade at Abigail. Now that's funny. I'm not sure if you've addressed this before. If you have, feel free to tell me which episode. Was it a common occurrence for people to leave the church over? Well, first of all, I can tell you, Abigail, it's a common occurrence for people to leave the church over everything. So I'd like to like to get that, get that on the record. Anyway, she goes on, she goes on to say nice things, but me a Coke that's warm.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, Garrett, United Order, two minutes. Go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We need to read the rest of her email there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, okay, I will. I would like to again state that you guys are great and funny and fun to listen to. I have several times delayed doing things I need to do, like go to bed so I can listen to you guys longer. When I go on my mission in two years, I will ask for premium content. As of right now, I lack funds. Keep it up. Abigail.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Abigail, I did not wait the two years. We added you to the Google Drive now, so.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, look at that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Yep.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Wow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's what we do. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Softy.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Look, she's wanting to go on a mission and she's 16.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, I. I step away for two weeks for bereavement and now you're given the content to. To teenagers.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm handing it out to everybody I know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What the heck?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, I mean, I know that our plan of being a self sustaining podcast without any advertising, without any donations, and without any means of income at all was a smart one, but. Yeah, see, if only you'd gotten your PhD in business before we started doing it, you would know. You'd have stopped us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did. So. I did have one thing on Jingle Bells though, just really quickly so the documented. Guess. The documented recording versions of Jingle Bells. Guess. Guess the number.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, it would have to be in the thousands. I mean, I would guess 80,000 known copies of it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Did you look this up? No, it's 89,000.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, my goodness. Hey, I'm batting a thousand.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, that's pretty good. Now there's two Christmas songs. More than that. Guess those two Christmas songs.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow. I mean, Silent Night.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Silent Night number two.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Excuse me. Silent Night number one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Apologies. Yeah. Silent Night number one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Number one. Boy, I mean, look, you're doing so great. White Christmas was number two. Wow.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm dreaming. There's 80,000 white Christmases.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Silent Night is 137,000. White Christmas is 128.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Wow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And this has been fun with numbers.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Oh, you got to stop doing that. I said no. And you just keep. You. You're horning it in. Yeah, you're throwing it in there. Okay, well, so we probably are out of time. So we'll have to talk about the United Order next time. I'm not gonna. I mean, look, as a teaser, there's a couple of issues surrounding the United Order, and not just, you know, for your great grandfather who leads the church over that is the terminology and how its practice changes so much over time that it's actually very difficult to be. I can give some generalities, and as I give generalities, people will say, well, wait, that's not what my great grandpa said in his, you know, united Order in Orderville. And, yeah, it's one of those things where it's practiced differently in different locales. And so every experience is going to be a little bit different. So we'll talk a little bit about that as well as some other things. I mean, we've got all kinds of stuff. I happened upon an anti Mormon government dispatch from Utah after the Civil War, and I thought, you know what? This will be a fun thing to read. Let's let people know how much the government hated Mormons. I mean, it's going to come across

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

as a surprise, but, yes, shock.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Anyway, thank you so much for joining us. I know we're trying to get back up to speed and. And I say that knowing that we've never been up to speed given the. This podcast, but thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for all your prayers and well wishes for Richard and his and his family, and thank you for continuing to support us. We would stop tomorrow or we would stop yesterday. We wouldn't even release this podcast if we didn't have people who who were supporting us. So thank you so much.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.