S6E18 The United Order and Tyler Too

Summary

Standard of Truth

S6E18: The United Order and Tyler Too

Release Date: May 7, 2026
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat
Co-Host: Dr. Richard Leduc

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the historical context and origins of the United Order among Latter-day Saints, centering on the economic and social pressures that led to its creation and the external persecution faced by Church members in 19th-century Utah. Dr. Dirkmaat and Dr. Leduc use primary historical sources, personal anecdotes, and humor to illustrate the deep challenges faced by early Saints and to contextualize their economic experiments, especially under the leadership of Brigham Young. Notably, the episode also detours into a lively discussion about the relative quality of presidential libraries and homes, providing a unique blend of scholarship and levity.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Addressing Listener Feedback and Episode Structure (00:29–03:00)

• The hosts joke about previous episode topics, including the history of "Jingle Bells" and its problematic minstrel origins.
• They highlight how and when they select listener emails, noting the spontaneity of their recording schedule.

2. Cinco de Mayo Tangent & Historical Connections (03:00–09:00)

• Dr. Dirkmaat shares historical context about Cinco de Mayo, its significance as a Mexican victory over the French, and related American historical events (e.g., the Monroe Doctrine).
• Light-hearted banter about the relative quality of James Monroe’s and James Buchanan’s presidential libraries.

3. Setting the Stage: Post-Civil War Utah (09:15–13:00)

• The post-Civil War era saw increased migration to Utah due to the completion of the transcontinental railroad in 1869.
• The influx of non-Latter-day Saints (“gentiles”) and external business interests created tensions, especially as the Saints faced both religious and civil persecution (e.g., exclusion from juries).
• Brigham Young and Church leaders sought to preserve a Latter-day Saint economic system to prevent exploitation by outsiders.

4. Government Persecution and Reports (13:00–38:00)

• Dr. Dirkmaat reads from a government report (prepared by Inspectors General Rusling and Hazen, 1866–67) that illustrates deep-seated federal suspicion and antagonism toward the Latter-day Saints.
  • The report recommends banning Mormons from military contracts—despite their lower bids—and labels Latter-day Saints as “open and avowed foes” of the United States.
  • The logic: Even if the government pays more by accepting non-Mormon bids, it would be preferable “for the encouragement and increase of a loyal population in Utah.”
  • The report demonstrates that Saints faced not merely private prejudice but systemic, government-backed discrimination.
• Notable Quote:

  “It is in their direct interest to do so, because all such business strengthens the Church while at the same time it proportionally weakens Gentiledom, which is really one of the first times I’ve seen that in print. Gentiledom. I think we got to bring it back, though.”
  —Dr. Dirkmaat [22:46]

• The ultimatum in the report lays out two options for the U.S.: send overwhelming military force or peacefully “neutralize and overcome Mormonism” by strengthening gentile contractors and curbing Mormon economic power.

5. The Dr. Robinson Murder Case as Anti-Mormon Narrative (39:20–46:21)

• The hosts discuss the murder of Dr. Robinson (1866) and its use as alleged evidence of Mormon violence, despite the city and merchants (mainly Latter-day Saints) putting up an enormous reward for discovering the killer.
• Emphasizes the double standard: Saints are condemned regardless of actions—whether they offer a reward or not, suspicion remains.
• Notable Quote:

  “If the Mormons had put up no reward, then you’d say, ‘See, they’re the ones who did it.’ And then when the Mormons did put up a reward, you said, ‘See, that’s just a trick to make us think that they didn’t.’ So it actually doesn’t matter what the Mormons do. If they put up a reward, that shows they’re evil. If they don’t put up a reward, it shows they’re evil.”
  —Dr. Dirkmaat [42:29]

6. Broader Social and Political Implications (48:00–53:00)

• Discusses how the overwhelming Mormon majority was routinely presented by critics as a political problem, even though it reflected demographic reality.
• Utah’s relatively early election of a Jewish governor (Simon Bamberger) demonstrates that Latter-day Saints were not uniformly exclusionary.

7. Economic Self-Preservation and the Rise of the United Order (53:10–61:42)

• What was the United Order?
  • Religious and economic cooperatives formed in late 19th-century Utah, ranging in size and nature.
  • Modeled on collective pooling of resources (labor, capital, often land) for mutual benefit and to shield against external economic pressures.
  • Approximately 100 different United Order organizations were established, each with its own structure and rules.
  • Rooted in principles of Zion: mutual upliftment, economic self-sufficiency, and social solidarity.
• Dr. Dirkmaat reads the preamble and articles of agreement from the United Order of St. George, showing it was voluntaristic and motivated by a desire to avoid the economic ills plaguing 19th-century America:

  “Realizing by the spirit and signs of the times and from the results of our past experience the necessity of a closer union and a combination of our labors for the promotion of our common welfare…”
  —United Order of St. George preamble [ca. 56:00]

• These co-ops were seen as both spiritual and practical, with the hope that greater economic efficiency and prosperity would result.

8. Discussion on Economic Systems and Modern Parallels (54:32–55:06)

• Co-ops and collective bargaining are compared to modern practices among farmers and businesses.
• The discussion recognizes tension between market capitalism and cooperative enterprise, but ultimately affirms the positive aspects of voluntary pooling for common good.

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Memorable Moments and Humor

• Presidential Library Rankings Detour (62:49–71:41)

  • Richard shares the “worst presidential libraries and homes” by Google review, leading to hilarious commentary on underwhelming sites (John Tyler’s Sherwood Forest Plantation comes out on top for least impressive, with multiple complaints about dogs and pamphlets).
  • Notable Quote:

    “John Tyler, a plantation owner—his family is reduced to apparently ill-tempered dogs and pamphlets.”
    —Dr. Dirkmaat [66:28]

• Reflective Closing (71:41–72:43)

  • Reminder to listeners that both pioneer ancestors and spiritual converts have inherited a legacy of profound institutional persecution.
  • Emphasizes how the choices of early Latter-day Saints were direct responses to real and systemic hostility.

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Key Timestamps

| Time | Topic | |------------|------------------------------------------------------| | 00:29 | Episode setup, hosts’ banter, listener mail | | 03:00 | Cinco de Mayo and related American history | | 09:15 | Arrival of the railroad, influx of “gentiles” | | 13:00 | Reading and analysis of Inspector General’s report | | 22:46 | “Gentiledom”—early use and significance | | 39:20 | Dr. Robinson case and anti-Mormon narratives | | 48:00 | Political power, Jewish governor, inclusion | | 53:10 | United Order explained, context & examples | | 56:00 | Reading United Order of St. George preamble | | 62:49 | Presidential libraries and homes—humorous segment | | 71:41 | Summation and call for historical empathy |

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Conclusion

Main Takeaway:
This episode persuasively illustrates that the United Order’s genesis lies in fundamental, tangible concerns—persistent external persecution and active efforts to cripple Latter-day Saint self-sufficiency. Contrary to later caricatures, these were rational responses to systematic government and economic hostility.

Closing Thought (Dr. Dirkmaat, 71:41):

“Your pioneer ancestors—or your spiritual ancestors, if you just joined the church last week—... the amount of persecution that they were going through, it’s not just from your average evangelical pastor... It’s coming from the highest levels of government. And it is repeated and it is loud and it’s terrifying... The reality is they see the federal government as an enemy because the federal government is saying, ‘We are your enemy.’ And so they kind of take them at their word.”

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For those interested in understanding not just what the United Order was, but why it emerged—and the underlying experience of the Saints—this episode provides detailed historical depth alongside humor and modern parallels.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[B]

Foreign. Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont. I am joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[C]

Hello, Garrett. Thanks for having me back. Excited. Excited to get into more, perhaps nursery songs or beloved Christmas hymns or tunes.

[B]

I was unaware. I. I was unaware of the blowback we would receive by explaining the origin of Jiggle Bells.

[C]

Well, poor Abigail just asked about Thanksgiving and you went. You went minstrel shows immediately.

[B]

I what? I was providing her with the context for why having an argument about whether it's a Thanksgiving song or a Christmas song is like arguing over, you know, whether or not which atom bomb was bigger. You can have an argument over it, but that's not really the point.

[C]

Yeah, Abigail. Abby. Yeah. I don't think you're. Yeah, you're not getting it. It's racist. That's the thing.

[B]

I didn't say that the song is racist.

[C]

No, heaven forbid. No, I just performed in the most racist way ever.

[B]

Look, historically speaking, it is essentially more often than not performed by minstrel troops.

[C]

So after the show you sent me, hey, Richard, why don't you go look up this and then this and then this.

[B]

I sent him links to the various minstrel show groups that were prominent in the 19th century so that he could see what they were doing. And Richard was duly horrified.

[C]

It was not ideal. But, Garrett, now we've got. I don't know how you want to do this. It was a two part question. First.

[B]

This is called the podcast, Richard. So we record things. So how we do it is.

[C]

First of all, I actually don't know how to do this. So that's very, very clear. What I mean is that we left people hanging on the United Order. And so I don't know if you want to answer that question and then get into the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag or. How would you like to do it, Gary?

[B]

Yeah, we could do that. I mean, I do want to. You know, first of all, obviously this is going to drop on the seventh, but we are recording this on Cinco de Mayo.

[C]

We are? Yeah, we are. We are. And there was kind of a funny thing. As we were preparing to record, we got an email Immediately in the inbox. It came to us from Shelley. And that's the best way to get your email read on the podcast is to send a pretty funny email that we see immediately as we're about to record. The problem is you don't know when we know. Angels in heaven do not know when

[B]

we're about to record of that date or hour. No man knoweth. And the reason is because we actually don't know when we're going to. So it's not like, oh, we've got a super secret schedule that we're not going to share with you. We aren't sharing the super secret schedule with ourselves, with each other.

[C]

That's right.

[B]

That's the real problem. The real problem. It's like, you know how secret this week's recording time is? I don't know what it is. It's so secret it has not yet

[C]

been revealed, but it is the most effective way to do it.

[B]

By the way, now I will say, you know, in solidarity to our Mexican brothers and sisters.

[C]

Horchata.

[B]

Drinking an horchata.

[C]

Very good.

[B]

Very good. You can't see this, but I actually am drinking an horchata.

[C]

Very good.

[B]

I love the celebration of Cinco de Mayo. And you know what? For a brief time, Latter Day Saints were all Mexicans as we all moved to Mexico and then, you know, became part of America again.

[C]

Yes. Well, and also today is actually my son's. Max's birthday will be on Thursday, and he will listen to this podcast in two years when he's on his mission, because he sure as heck isn't going to listen on his birthday. So. Happy birthday, Max.

[B]

Yeah, happy birthday, max. You're now 24, and you're headed to your journeyman plumber's job or whatever you do. I don't know what you're doing.

[C]

I hope so. Journeyman plumbers, they make great money.

[B]

I know. Well, he seems like the kind of guy who'd like to get in there and.

[C]

Well, like, how. How do you fight against AI? You know, be a plumber. Like, that's. That's the way to go. Artisan contractor. That's where it's at.

[B]

Yep. Yep. Or, you know, be the. You want to be a general contractor, so you could still just skim off the top. I think that's.

[C]

To all of our general contractor friends. We will see you in spirit prison.

[B]

So let me say, I do love. I gotta say, I don't not to. I love the story of Cinco de Mayo. I love the. I love the. The fact that it's this much smaller Mexican force fighting the French invaders and they. They defeat them. And that's the reason why it's such a heroic holiday, you know, for those you don't know.

[C]

The French lost the battle. I find that very hard to believe.

[B]

Well, this is, you know, unfortunately, it wasn't under Napoleon I first, because he won battles.

[C]

He did fine.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. This was under Napoleon iii, who was basically just trading off of Napoleon's name, you know, as a nephew of Napoleon. And he, you know, he took advantage, you know, because, look, the Monroe Doctrine, you know, which we will get to on condemned to repeat it in, I mean, seven or eight years. Yeah, Monroe Doctrine, it prevented Europeans from recolonizing the Western hemisphere. That was part of what Monroe said, that, you know, the United States will take an attack on the Western Hemisphere as an attack on itself because you had all these former Spanish colonies that were now free. But the French, Napoleon iii, took advantage of the American Civil War and invaded Mexico at the height of the American Civil War. And so the United States wasn't able to respond. And so that's part of the reason why there was at least a push or at least a fear, a belief that France might side with the Confederacy directly in the Civil War. And certainly they are favorable towards the Confederacy, you know, helping them with supplies and stuff like that. And after the Civil War, there are Confederate generals who leave the Confederacy and go to French occupied Mexico and serve in the French occupied forces, actually.

[C]

That's interesting. Well, so I will say of the Virginia presidential libraries, Monroe has the worst, so.

[B]

Oh, yeah, you think that's why? Because he had the Monroe Doctrine?

[C]

Well, I don't know why, but it's like a double wide compared to the other ones.

[B]

So what does James Buchanan's library look like?

[C]

Take it back. He has the second worst.

[B]

Well, James Buchanan's not from Virginia.

[C]

Well, there you go. Okay.

[B]

But I'm just wondering who gathers up the money for the James Buchanan and the Andrew Johnson Memorial presidential Libraries.

[C]

You know what? I'm going to put the crack research staff on it. Who has the worst presidential library? Because the part of the problem isn't that I'm sure that you put that, you know, you put the Monroe Presidential Library in Rhode island and it's killing it.

[B]

That's the thing.

[C]

But, but you put it in Virginia and you're comparing it to, you know, Montpelier. You're comparing it to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's, it's kind of like, you know, when Lisa goes to The Jefferson Memorial, because she's having a crisis of conscience and she's like, Mr. Jefferson, and let me tell you why I'm here. And he says, I know why you're here. You're here because the Lincoln Memorial is busy. I believe it was something like that. Is that correct?

[C]

Something like that, yeah.

[B]

Yeah. So. So, yeah, it's pretty tough when you've got Washington and Jefferson and frankly, even James Madison to be like, oh, yeah, well, I'm James Monroe and I'm coming for you. I mean, it's just, it's not, it's, it's not as. Not as powerful. So anyway, let's. We've digressed enough. Bonus points, though. The Emperor of Mexico, Maximilian, right. He was the younger brother. This is the French installed emperor of Mexico that Benito Juarez is fighting against. He was the younger brother of Franz Joseph, the Emperor of Austria. Franz Joseph is the Emperor of Austria when World War I breaks out. So in 1862 is when the Battle of Puebla is. Which is what Cinco de Mayo is commemorating. And it is 40 years later, a little more sorry, I mean, 60 years later, that he friends Joseph, the Emperor of Austria. He dies in 1916. And of course, the war breaks out in 1914. But a lot of interconnections there. I don't know what that has to do with what we're about to talk about. Let's talk about the United Order. So the question that we had, in a lot of ways, not the worst lead in, because what is spurring the United Order is the increase of pressure from gentile capitalism, meaning non Latter Day Saint capital. So when the Saints first get to Utah, well, the only, you know, the only non Latter Day Saints living there are people who just got excommunicated, you know, fur trappers passing through and the Native Americans who live in the area. But especially with the end of the American Civil War and the increase of movement of people who were not Latter Day Saints and commerce. You know, the railroad does a lot of this. The transcontinental railroad completed in 1869 makes it much easier for a pioneer to make it to Salt Lake, but it also makes it a lot easier for other kinds of people to make it to Salt Lake. Not all of them, you know, savory and Latter Day Saints are in the midst of the federal government trying to persecute them for the practice of plural marriage, but also trying to restrict their rights in other ways. Right. Blaming everything on plural marriage. But, you know, that's just the excuse. Right. So they're going to Pass, you know, a bill that prevents Latter Day Saints from serving on certain juries. Imagine that. Right. So you live in a place that's 90 plus percent latter day saints. Those people aren't allowed to sit on juries.

[C]

Right.

[B]

Only non Latter Day Saints are. I wonder, you know, if that would lead to a lot of fair trials. I mean, just imagine this kind of things going on. So there's a lot of this external persecution and a lot of the newcomers. Look, I mean, there's a reason why there's a term carpetbagger in the American south after the Civil War is in the aftermath of the destruction of the Confederacy. Well, there was a lot of things that were needed. And so what do you have? You have a lot of enterprising entrepreneurs who come south with ideas and capital to try to invest in the economy. The same thing's kind of going on in Utah. It wasn't destroyed by the Civil War, but with the transcontinental railroad, what you've really accelerated is you've accelerated non Latter Day Saints attempting to do business in. In Utah. And because they are facing so much persecution externally, there is a movement, you know, headed by Brigham Young in the church to try to maintain their own economy. Right. So we don't want you buying cotton from land speculate from speculative mercantile enterprises from the east and from the south who are. They're taking our money and then using it to hire federal marshals to come here to try to arrest people. So you can see they see this kind of external influence as an enemy, and so they're going to try to limit it. I wasn't going to share this. At least not I was going to share this at some point. But you know what? Now that I brought this all up, I feel like I might just share it.

[C]

Okay. Jump into it.

[B]

Yeah. And you don't even know what it is. This is. Why is Richard my co host and partner? Because he has no idea. Legit, no idea what I'm about to say. And if this was live, then he could really be worried.

[C]

So the reason I'm your partner is because I have no idea. I thought you were gonna go somewhere with that, but no, no, it was like just. Just that I.

[B]

No, no. You have no idea what I'm going to say and yet you are.

[C]

I'm very excited to hear what it is.

[B]

Well, you're on board with it?

[C]

I'm on board. I'm on pins and needles. I'm on everything. Very exciting.

[B]

So I'm going to share with you to give you an idea of the type of persecution that Latter Day Saints are facing. You will hear sometimes, especially from, you know, former Mormon, anti Mormon kind of people. Oh yeah, the Saints have a persecution complex. They just act like everybody's against them. And how often have you heard that, Richard?

[C]

Oh, just, I mean, every day.

[B]

And it's always hilarious too that the person telling you that you have a persecution complex is someone who just finished saying something derogatory about your entire faith instead of people as an individual.

[C]

So I don't understand that with growing up with a Jewish mother and being Latter Day Saint, it's all new.

[B]

If there's one group of people that's been spared from being painted with a broad brush of people saying, well, you know, all Jews X it's the Jewish people, you can. American history in fact demonstrates that no one has ever said anything derogatory. Really world history, I mean, outside of Martin Luther writing the book on the Jews and their lies.

[C]

Other than that, that's the only one.

[B]

It's the one place, never mind the Epistle of Barnabas, but I mean, there's the one place that you get it. Well, so why I thought I might share this because we all know that there's religious anti Mormonism. Okay. And I think that that's kind of baked in. We get it that someone who's an evangelical Christian thinks that we're worshiping the wrong Jesus. And so because of that, they're going to say that you guys think that Jesus and Satan are brothers. You don't believe that you're saved by the grace of Jesus, you're worshiping Satan. I mean, just the on down the line of calling the hits of misrepresentations of what Latter Day Saints believe. What I think is much more difficult for Latter Day Saints to come to comprehend or to come to terms with is when this representation is not coming from a pastor in a Presbyterian church, but it's coming by government officials of the United States government. So I'm going to share with you a document and by share with you, I mean read part of it. I mean, some of it's very boring. So we're just going to skip over it. But in the aftermath of the Civil War, there is a, a report that's prepared by two inspector generals of the United States army. Okay. They, they prepare this report in 1866, okay. Generals Rusling and Hazen. It gets presented to Congress in 1867 and then it gets, you know, printed by the House of Representatives. So this is a commissioned report. Right. They are the Secretary of the, The Interior Department, essentially. Sorry, the general. The Inspector General of the Interior Department. So part of what Congress is trying to do in the aftermath of the American Civil War is figure out where are we now? Okay. I mean, like, we've been in this titanic death struggle for the past four plus years. Hundreds of thousands of people are dead. And actually, even before that, if you remember, the government was hardly functioning as it was. You had bleeding Kansas going on where you literally had pro slavery and anti slavery forces murdering one another and the federal government going, huh, that's interesting. I mean, because they couldn't really respond because if they really responded, it might cause a war. So not only do you have everything that's happened because of the war, you have kind of the general lead up to before the war, which is this lack of oversight, or at least effective oversight as far as the government's concern and an understanding about a lot of these areas. So the point of the inspector general's investigation and report was kind of to say, hey, here's where we're at in Nebraska. We need a road. We got like zero roads here. Let's get a road. Has anyone thought about maybe, maybe having a ferry across this river? I mean, so there's a lot of. It is, hey, here's where it's hurting, here's where it's helping. This is much better than we thought. This is much worse than we thought. These are our recommendations. Okay, I know that's a, that's a long way to go, but here is. Now this is an official government document published by the United States government. Okay? Published by the Congress from the United States Army. Not. This is not from a Missouri. This is not from a Missouri militia detachment that just finished butchering people at Hans Mill. Although you know what? Maybe it could have been.

[C]

Yes,

[B]

as he gets to. And this is a big long report, but as he gets to. As these two generals get to the, the Utah area, one of the big focuses on the fact that, well, we need to have an army occupy Utah, but to support that army that's occupying Utah, we have to buy goods and services from the very Mormons that we're trying to occupy. Right? This is, this is a real problem. It's almost like united order in reverse here. Well, we need to buy food, but when we buy food, we're buying it from the Mormons. So all we're doing is giving money to the Mormons who then are more powerful because we're giving them government money to buy food for the army. And the army's there to keep them from becoming too powerful. And they're becoming too powerful because we're buying food from them.

[C]

Yeah, it's a problem. I can see that.

[B]

It's a vicious cycle. Anyway, let me read part of this. I think the present policy here, as it. As to contracts, bad. This is talking about Utah, and would recommend an entire change in the absence of instructions. Major Grimes has adopted the same policy here as prevails elsewhere, namely to accept the lowest bid and to make his contracts accordingly. Okay, so this Major Grimes, who's making the decision on government contracts is being blasted by this superior, by this inspector general, for accepting the lowest balance bid for government purchases. Now, I mean, if all government purchasers had been and were and ever would be, like under Major Grimes, where they were driven by, I don't know, what's best for the government instead of something else, wouldn't that be great? This policy is a suicidal one for the government here among these Mormons. These Mormons. I love that.

[C]

That's good.

[B]

Not even among the Mormons. These Mormons, of course, with their peculiar organization and advantages, they can well afford to take all of the contracts at a figure lower than the outside Gentile population. It is in their direct interest to do so because all such business strengthens the Church while at the same time, it proportionally weakens Gentiledom, which is really one of the first times I've seen that in print. Gentiledom. I think we got to bring it back, though.

[C]

Yeah, it's good. I live off of Gentile, you live

[B]

off the road Gentile, and you could call it Gentile.

[C]

Gentile. Them. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. The total contracts here at Fort Bridger for the current year and for the quartermaster and commissary assistance departments will not fall much, if any, short of $150,000. The profits on this, I apprehend, will foot up to $50,000, judging by what the contractors usually make. If this falls to Mormon contractors, of course, a tenth of Those profits, or $5,000, goes directly into the pockets of Mr. Brigham Young, or the Church of the Latter Day Saints, as he facetiously calls it. Now, that has to be one of the dumbest things ever written into a government report. And I say that as a student of American history who has read incredibly stupid things claimed by incredibly stupid people, as he facetiously calls it. You think Brigham Young, he's just sitting around like, hey, why don't we call ourselves Latter Day Saints? How about that? The. The. The derision over the name of the Church itself, pretending that Brigham Young made it up just demonstrates the level of. Remember, these are the inspector generals who went out and met with all of these people. This, this is not there. This is what I think is going to happen. This is there. I'm submitting to Congress my. I do also like the fact that he thinks that every time a contract is purchased, 10% of it's going to the church. I like the fact that he believes we're 100% tithe payers. I feel like that's a good testimony.

[C]

So when we first moved to Utah, Becky had some heartburn with that being from Idaho. She loved Idaho. And there's a much higher percentage of Latter Day Saints in Utah. And so, you know, if you go to a mechanic and you know, you feel like you're done, done dirty by the mechanic, chances of them being LDS is higher. And I would always say, well, there's probably a pretty decent chance that 10% of that goes to the church. And so from that standpoint, I took the same general approach that, that these anti Mormons took.

[B]

I like the fact that you assume that someone who's bilking you out of money is also very conscientiously paying their tithing.

[C]

I hoped that they would.

[B]

Well, so he goes on. I mean, he spends a lot of time on this. He says, in other words, the United States pays into the hands of its open and avowed foes. Listen to that. The United States pays into its hands of its open and avowed foes. He is saying the church and Mormons are the open and avowed foes of the United States. Pays into its open and avowed foes $5,000 into the hands of its complete subjects and of its foes $45,000 more. On the contrary, if this amount had gone into the hands of Gentile contractors, it would Fairly represent, say, 50 families, and it would be strengthened by that much. The loyal population here. The population of the valley is now variously represented from 75,000 to 100,000 souls, of which between 2,000 and 3,000 only are Gentiles. These last are unconditionally and unequivocally loyal to the core. While the great bulk of the Mormon population are openly and avowedly hostile and boastingly live in defiance of the laws of the United States, which the federal courts here are powerless to enforce. This condition of things gets no better, but rather worse here from year to year, as it is evidently only a question of time how soon the United States will vindicate its authority and dignity, or else it will adopt A policy by encouraging and strengthening gentilism that will gradually and peacefully neutralize and overcome Mormonism. The. The United States army is proposing to Congress how to best peacefully neutralize and overcome Mormonism. As a step in this direction, I recommend that no Mormon be allowed to receive a contract from the Quartermaster's department, the military department that's making the decision, but that all such patronage is held for Gentiles. So this is his plan. No Mormon, whether they've committed a crime or not, whether they've practiced polygamy or not, by virtue of the fact that they are a member of the church alone, is not eligible to supply grain to the United States army, even if they're doing it for a less price.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

But, you know, all the persecution is, like, invented. Yeah. So it's not like this is a congressional document, you know, so, like, obviously it's, like, made up, and people just think they're persecuted. Major Grimes informs me that such a policy would probably. Would probably cost the government here this year $5,000 or more than by letting the contracts go to the lowest bidders, as he has now. Again, remember, this is a time when the average American's making, like $300 a year. So this is a. $5,000 is a lot of money. And he's saying if you adopted this anti Mormon bid policy where only non Mormons could bid it, sure, it would have cost the government an extra $5,000, but it keeps the hand money out of the hands of the Mormons. He says, well, suppose it had. Would not that have been a cheap premium for the encouragement and increase of a loyal population in Utah? And had not the United States better have paid for that such purpose than to put an equal sum of $5,000 in the hands of Brigham Young as it has. I forbear to discuss this subject further, but make these suggestions for consideration of the department for I think the garrison here should either be largely increased or withdrawn altogether. So this is the US army that's stationed in Utah and has been since 1862 during the Civil War. It is in. And this is one of the best analogies, by the way. I realize for almost everyone listening, this is the most boring thing you've ever heard for someone like me. This is. This is a T bone steak. This is. This is. This is rib eye. Marbled and aged. It's. Well, it's ready. You don't. You don't need a sauce on it. It's just straight up, the greatest meat. I mean, and remember, we are just on the end of The Civil War. Look at the analogy that he makes about Utah and about the army garrison in Utah. The army garrison, it is in the same condition that Major Anderson was in in Fort Sumter in April 1861.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

It is too small for effective use and only serves as an insult and an irritation to the people here. To effectually overawe and control these malcontents would require two regiments of infantry, a squadron of cavalry, and a battery of artillery. They themselves have a militia organization in this county alone that foots up to 1500 men, of whom one third are cavalry, and a battery of howitzers besides. I attended their annual muster last week, and I saw them for myself. The organization does not report to the territorial governor, but carries the flag of the old Nauvoo Legion and that of the state of Deseret as well as the United States standard. Y' all just sneak that in there? Yeah, look there. Obviously, this training rebel army, and they've got their own flag and also the American flag. But, yeah, this has got their own flag. I mean, he really buried the lead there, right? Like, they're out there have no allegiance to the United States at all, except for the American flag that they fly when they have their parades. Other than that, they hate the government. They're looking to destroy America. That's why they're flying the flag. I mean, at some point, it's like. Well, they say that they're loyal to America, but we know they're not. How do we know? Because we know. We just know that they are. That's how we know. Anyway, they report only Lieutenant General Wells, a high Mormon dignitary and creature of Brigham Young. Very nice to dehumanize Daniel H. Wells that way. Similar organizations exist in all of their counties, though the one here is, of course, the largest. Governor Durkee tells me that he's tried to get a hold of this militia or to disband it, as hostile to the territory and federal government, but has utterly failed to touch it. Brigham Young's word is law and gospel here, and he is the governor de facto, no matter what the President. No matter whom the president may send here du jour. Right. So not the governor de jure rather than the governor de facto before this force. Our petty garrison here of less than 200 men is of course powerless, and it is the derision of the Mormons. They are content to feed and supply it so long as they can make money and exclude gentiles from contracts. Now, wait a minute. The Mormons are actively excited. The only People actively excluding them from the government contracts. Here is some of them because they're, because they're offering less for the contract. Like, you know how, you know how dirty these Mormons are? Well, when a Gentile comes and says he'll sell the grain for $1,000, the Mormons come in and say they'll sell it for 800. That's how dirty they are. That's how disloyal to the United States they are. When they're looking to sell things to the United States government and some carpetbagger from, from, from New York is trying to, trying to sell it for $1,000, these Mormons come in and try to sell it for 800. How dare they? To the United States government. You know, it really is interesting to see the kind of conspiracy feel that has generated surrounding Mormons in the sense that you could just as easily see this as a positive. Couldn't you? Couldn't you see this as, you know, while all the Gentile contractors around us are trying to rip us off, the Mormon contractors always give us the cheapest bids, right? That, that would be seen as a positive. Instead, he's taken what is a positive for the government that they're paying less money than they have to pay. And he's making that a negative because, well, it just shows how dirty these Mormons are.

[C]

Yeah, no, I, So there's, there's an episode that I've wanted to do and it'll be multi. Part that, that is in the same vein, which is, I mean, as you're reading these things from the government, it's, it's the Idaho ratification of the Idaho constitution, which is just insane. Like it, it sent me down an insane rabbit hole. It is absolutely crazy. The things that are being said in this particular case, the discounted grain. It's viewed as some, there must be some evil thing going on versus just, you know, some sort of business practice to be able to, you know, to, to win the bid. Right?

[B]

Well, you know what it demonstrates? I mean, look, for our listeners, it's a good way to put a check on yourself when you are branding people by the group, right? When you say, well, all, you know, these people are X and all these people are Y, and all, all people from this political party are X and all people from this political party are Y, it's a, it's time to check yourself, right? For a lot of reasons. But one of the reasons is it can allow you to make what is, for all other intents and purposes, a completely an objectively idiotic Argument. His job as the Inspector General of the United States army for the Interior Department is to ensure that things are running smoothly and as cheaply as they can and that there's no waste and that. And that things are being done in proper order. The bulk of his report related to Salt Lake is that the Mormons are selling things cheaper than anyone else will sell them to us. That's why we should hate the Mormons. When you can always ask yourself this about someone that you disagree with or someone you have a problem with, if there's nothing that they can do that you would be okay with, then that's how you know that you are the person who's wrong. That's how you know if there's someone that you dislike and you're mad because they did do something, and you would be just as mad if they didn't do something, well, then it's not really about that other person, is it? It's about you, because you're the one deciding that no matter what they do, they'll be mad. I mean, I had a friend telling me the other day that he was frustrated with some of his extended family because he had an extended family member who would get really upset every time people would come in out of town to visit for important things. Because this family member then felt like, well, all the burdens on me. People don't realize how much I'm doing, that. This is just all kind of heavy burden. But then if people didn't come, this family member would be so irate and so angry at them. So they were. They were really mad if people came, and they were also really mad if people didn't come. And it's like, well, I'm not exactly sure. And this is what he says, like, I'm not sure anymore what they even want me to do. I'm not sure if they want me to come or if they don't want me to come because they're mad regardless of what I do.

[C]

It is pretty funny.

[B]

I think we all probably know people

[C]

like that, but I think I'm like that a little bit.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that, too. You know what? We just don't like people. Why don't you just stay away? But if you.

[C]

If you stay away, then.

[B]

He didn't even call. He didn't call. He didn't call. So as he goes on, they as a cons. So. So they could not stand a day against their fanatical thousands if Brigham Young saw fit to launch them upon it. As a consequence, Gentiles Here are robbed, driven off, and even killed with impunity. So that's he's making. He's making a claim that Gentiles in Utah are murdered by Mormons. Okay? As a consequence, Gentiles were robbed, driven off, and even killed with impunity, as witnessed the case of Dr. Robinson here on October 22nd while I lay sick. His offense was that he had squatted on a piece of ground entirely unoccupied, without improvements, some three miles from the heart of Great Salt Lake City, but to which the city nevertheless had a claim. A force of police was sent to tear down his house and warn him from the premises. He made no resistance, but quietly removed into the city and then began a suit before the federal courts to test his right of preemption. He had not a personal enemy. He had formerly been in the volunteer service here, and he'd been honorably mustered out. He was a sober, quiet and upright man. He was even popular because of his services to the poor. No.

[C]

Very nice.

[B]

Yet as soon as he commenced his suit, he was summoned before bed near midnight on the pretense that a mule had fallen on a man and broken the man's leg. And as he went forth on his errand of mercy and benevolence, he was waylaid by eight men, knocked down and shot through his head two or three times so as to make sure of their victim. His watch and purse were left unmolested in his pockets. The police made no effort to discover his murderers. And the universal conviction of all federal officers here, governors, judges, and the great bulk of the Gentile population, is that Dr. Robinson was deliberately killed by the Mormons because they were afraid of the forthcoming decision by the courts. And again here, even in his war wild tale that he's creating, he has to include some things true. The city has offered a reward of $2,000, which is gigantic, for the apprehension of his assassins, and the Mormon and gentile merchants, some $7,000 more. Okay, so the city government, which is completely dominated by Mormons, as well as the economic area, which is completely dominated by Mormons, together have put up $9,000 reward if they can find out who killed this guy.

[C]

So again, what year is this?

[B]

This is 1866.

[C]

Okay. Okay. Yikes.

[B]

Okay, again, the average person's making around $300 a year, maybe 400, depending on what you're talking about. So. So now you could take this. You could take this exact same story and you could say the Mormons are so upset over the murder of Dr. Robinson that they raised a reward of $9,000 to try to find the murderer. Right, that's what you could say. Instead, how does this guy respond? But this trick deceives nobody here. So again, if the Mormons had put up no reward, then you'd say, see, see, they're the ones who did it. And then when the Mormons did put up a reward, you said, see, that's just a trick to make us think that they didn't. So it actually doesn't matter what the Mormons do. If they put up a reward, that shows they're evil. If they don't put up a reward, it shows they're evil. It just kind of sounds like you think the Mormons are evil. This trick deceives nobody and is only meant to throw dust into the eyes of Lt. Gen. Sherman and the people east. So he's invoking there, you know, the great hero of the Civil War and the, the leader of the military at this point, Lieutenant General Sherman, the same one who marched on Atlanta. Probably some of our Atlanta listeners have heard different things about Sherman than the great General Sherman. But, um, I give this as only one illustration of what is constantly occurring here in some form or other. Hence I say our present garrison is only a mockery of power. We could spend some time and go into the trial of Dr. Robinson. I mean, obviously the fact that he's killed is, is, is a tragedy. But there is legitimately no evidence presented at all that the Mormons decided they were going to have him killed. The really weird part about it too is, well, they decided they were going to have him killed because a court ruled against him, but he was appealing to another court. And the Mormons were so certain that that court was going to rule in his favor that they said, you know what, all we can do is kill him. And you know what, let's not keep it small. Let's get eight people to do it. Let's make sure it's big. Like all conspiracies involving eight people, no one ever talks. Let's get everybody together. And it kind of shows this, this general sense among the non Latter Day Saints in the aftermath of the Civil War. Remember, Lincoln is elected to destroy the two twin relics of barbarism, the slavery in the territory, slavery and polygamy. Well, slavery's just been destroyed, but there is still another monster to destroy, right? And that is polygamy. And you know, along with that Mormonism, he goes on to say, I recommend a speedy increase to the figures heretofore, given that an ample protection be given to All American citizens here, as in the same as in New York and Massachusetts, wherever the flag floats, we are entitled to freedom of speech and to the press, and neither exists here now. Now, he says that even though there are multiple non Mormon newspapers publishing regularly in the territory, there's no freedom of the press except for these antagonistic newspapers that constantly attack the church. Other than that, there's no freedom. And there's obviously, you know, no one's ever prosecuted. That's the reason why they're putting up rewards to find people.

[C]

By the way, if you. Look, if you. Let's say that you say the average depends on how you would factor it, but if you put it at $500 compared to the median individual income, you're over a million dollars in terms of equivalent. It's a huge, insane amount of money.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, but they only did that as a trick. That's. That's how it always. And like I said, if they'd have put up no reward, you better believe the next line of that thing would be, and the Mormons didn't even put up a single reward.

[C]

Right.

[B]

So you put up a reward shows you're disloyal. You don't put up a reward shows you're disloyal. If the United States government cannot guarantee them in spite of 100,000 polygamous, disloyal Mormons, then it seems to me that we had better abdicate and make way for some other decent Christian government that can and will. I mean, that is a pretty harsh thing. Go ahead.

[C]

So you're saying that. So the Saints felt that there was some economic pressure put upon them from outside of the LDS community? That's what you're suggesting?

[B]

Well, I mean, I'm not. You know, I mean, why would they feel like there's economic pressure when the Brigadier General, Inspector Quartermaster General of the United States army of the Interior, James F. Rusling, is submitting to Congress his report that no Mormon should be allowed any government contracts and that they're enemies of the United States and that a much larger military force should be sent to Utah in order to eliminate Mormonism. Why would they think that?

[C]

It's crazy.

[B]

It's weird that the Mormons just. They just like, react, you know, they just react. And I don't know why they react the way they do. So I share that because this is all roughly the same time period. You have an increase of Gentiles coming into the territory. Non Latter Day Saints, who. Some of them, you know, they get along just fine with Latter Day Saints. Some of them is just fine, but with others, it becomes this whole argument over and over and over again that the Mormons have too much power. Well, that's very easy to say when, you know, you're one of the 5% in a land of 95%, and you say, well, I think they have too much power. Yeah. Like in an American democracy, guess who's probably going to be a Mormon? In a place where elections are held, like when the population's 95% Mormon, you probably shouldn't be surprised if the people that are elected into office are Mormon. That's not surprising. That's called math. I mean, and frankly, the Latter Day Saints are more than willing in the later 19th century and early 20th century to elect non Mormons. I mean, Utah has one of the first Jewish governors in the entire United States. Right. And there's still, you know, better than 80, 20 Mormons to non Mormons in Utah. When Simon Bamberger is elected, of course, that's probably making the conspiracy people going for. And who would those Mormons elect? Who would they elect? A Jew. That's exactly.

[C]

I mean, you're saying the last name Bamberger didn't give it away.

[B]

It's hard to believe that Simon Bamberger also Jewish. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Good for us.

[B]

Now, when you say us in that

[C]

sense, I mean both sides.

[B]

I mean Jewish us or latter Day.

[C]

I mean both sides us. Yeah.

[B]

So look, I mean, this, this economic pressure from the outside. And look, Brigham Young is talking about this too. We should not be sending money out of the territory, first of all, to buy things we don't need. You don't need to buy clothes from New York City and send money out of the territory when you can buy them here. Now this matters more in the 19th century than it does now. Even today. Even today you will. You know, look, there's a reason why tourism is such a big deal, you know, all over the world, right? Because tourist dollars are dollars that are coming into your community from outside of the, the closed, you know, economic system of your community. Right. So I have a convenience store and, you know, there's 300 local people that go to it every week. Well, if suddenly there's a tourist attraction and now there's 300 non local people that go there every week. Well, now, though, I've got 600 people going, so my business is booming, but all their money is going into my local economy. Right. That guy might be doing whatever he's doing with it, but in the 19th century, keeping money at home mattered more because they're all on the gold standard. Right. So dollars in the 19th century represent an actual amount of gold in a vault somewhere. So money flowing out of your area means that your area now has fewer of those dollars in circulation. Right. You have, you have a much bigger impetus in a non. You know, we aren't on a gold standard anymore. Right. We're just on the, you know, the full faith and credit idea. But in a gold standard economy, there is a greater impetus to try to keep dollars here and from going somewhere else. I should probably have Richard opine on all this since he's.

[C]

No, no, he's very, very well. No, no, no, that's very, very well said, but. And by the way, I see why we do the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag first.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Because we're about 50 minutes in and.

[B]

And we're not going to get to it.

[C]

Oh, I mean, no.

[B]

Well, let me just, let me briefly transition to United Order.

[C]

Okay, yeah, that'd be great.

[B]

So the United Order is they're these little and sometimes larger cooperatives that are formed and they are all different. They are, they are cooperatives that are formed with this kind of religious idea, the kind of. This kind of Zion idea that pool labor, capital, sometimes land. And the reason why I can't be very specific about it is there's, you know, roughly 100 of these different organizations that are set up all throughout Utah in the 1870s and 80s and 90s and on. I mean, one of the most popular ones that people remember, you know, if they used to go to the candy shop there, is Zion's Farm. Right. Cooperative Mercantile. Right. So this, this idea of, of pooling Latter Day Saint resources so that Latter Day Saints get better deals on products and so that they can do more with their pooled resources. Farmers are well aware of the idea of pooling resources. This is the reason why co ops exist. Right. That. That or Granges existed is I can only get this kind of a price for my potatoes when it's. When it's. When. When it's me. But if it's all of us together, we can get this better price on the potatoes and then we all share on the fact that we get the better price.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's kind of a. It's, it's. It's going to be hard. I know Richard, he's twitching because it is, it is an anti capitalist, you know, idea. It's a way of trying to control prices through cooperative effort rather than strictly the market economy.

[C]

Well, but I don't know that that's.

[B]

I Thought I lost you.

[C]

I don't know.

[B]

Cause you're like, nope, if it's not capitalism, I'm out.

[C]

Well, no, I don't understand what's wrong with that. I mean, pulling together with like minded individuals for better prices, that's a beautiful thing to me. I love the heck out of that.

[B]

Well, so here is an example of the united order around St. George. So I don't know anything about your grandfather's case. Your great great grandfather, who you know, was offended by the United Order because it involved money and because it involved loss of freedom. You can already, I mean, you're a teenager. You know exactly how either loss of freedom or no money can cause problems, right? These are voluntary organizations where people say, I am going to give my property to this cooperative, to this United Order for this purpose. Well, if I've already done that, and then I turn around and say, you know what? I want all my property back. Well, in the documents that you signed, you don't have a right to take it back, right. That you signed that document. So you don't get to just decide, no, but I want it. I'm well aware you want it. Again, this goes back to the teenager example, right? I mean, the fact that you want something is not the same thing as the fact of what's going to happen. So here's the preamble and the articles of agreement of the United Order of the city of St. George. Okay? So this is what they got together when they formed their cooperative in St. George. Why they said they were doing what they were doing, realizing by the spirit and signs of the times and from the results of our past experience, the necessity of a closer union and a combination of our labors for the promotion of our common welfare. And whereas I'm reading a very. This is a handwritten copy of this and it is, let's just say that even the people who've scanned this have written next to it, poor copy. So I'm reading something. The people who scan this were like, this is pretty bad. I don't want anyone to think that I did this. I need them to know that, that this is bad to begin with. Otherwise people are going to be like, why is Bill so bad at scanning documents? This is ridiculous. So be. And whereas we have learned of the struggle between capital and labor resulting in strikes of the workmen and the consequent distress and also the oppression of moneyed monopolies. And whereas there is a growing distrust of the faithlessness among men in the political and business relations of life as well as the spirit for extravagant speculation and overreaching the legitimate bounds of the credit system, resulting in financial panics and in bankruptcies paralyzing industry and thereby making many of the necessities and and conveniences of life precarious and uncertain. And whereas our past experience. Again, they've gone through this right. Whereas our past experience has proven that to be the friends of God we must become the friends and helpers of each other and be united in a common bond of brotherhood. So I mean, you can tell there's this religious aspect of it that whereas to accomplish such a desirable. And become truly prosperous. Sorry, desirable end. And to become truly prosperous, we must be self sustaining, encouraging home manufacturers producing cotton, wool and other materials and not only supply our own wants with the manufactured goods, but also to have some to spare for exportation. And by the, by these means create. Oh boy, create a fund. Boy, that, that. Wow.

[C]

Dangerous.

[B]

I really should have transcribed this.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, well, fund. Fund could be dangerous.

[B]

Yeah, I, I, I was about to write Friend and it's fund. It's fund, but it looks like fund was written by the last gasp of a dying man. He's like fund the castle. It's upon which a fund for a surplus upon which to do all of our business. And whereas we believe that by a proper classification of our labors and energies with due regard to the laws of life and health, we will not only increase in earthly possessions at a more rapid rate, but we will also have more leisure time to devote to the cultivation and training of our minds and those of our children in the arts and in the sciences. And whereas at present time we rely too much upon foreign importation for a large share of our clothing and our other necessities and also bring from abroad many articles of luxury and but little of value for which we pay our money, most of which articles could be dispensed with. And whereas we believe that the beauty of our garments should be the workmanship of our hands and that we should practice more diligently. Oh boy, that's tough fun. Boy. They wrote over it twice. But it looks like temperance, frugality and simple grandeur of manners that belong to the pure in heart. And whereas we are desirous of avoiding the difficulties and evils of the above alluded to and feel the necessity of becoming a self sustaining community, fully realizing that we live in perilous times socially, morally, politically and commercially. Therefore, be it resolved that. And then they say that they're going to pool together their resources, that they're going to Assign amounts of labor to people and that people are, you know, who sign this. Are choosing to be a part of this order of shared resources.

[C]

That's good. That helps to explain that. And that does sound. Yeah, you had me at farmer co op. You lost me at fund.

[B]

Yeah, well, I lost myself at fund because I couldn't read it. And. But they say that they even think, look, we don't think that by pooling our resources it means we're going to have less possessions. We actually think that by pooling our resources we'll get possessions more rapidly because we're pooling our resources.

[C]

Now, Garrett, we are out of time, but I have something that I think you will find fun or fund. And so we have David, Matt and Shelley's email that we can punt to the premium because it's all condemned to. Repeated. Related. Condemned to repeat it. Related. Because I want to. I did look up the worst Presidential homes and Libraries by Google Review, and I think that you will enjoy. You will enjoy this.

[B]

Okay, let's hear it.

[C]

I have the top 10. Give me. You've already mentioned Buchanan. Buchanan is not on the. The top.

[B]

Does he have a presidential library?

[C]

It's so it's presidential library or home or estate. So it's because the presidential libraries, I think that officially didn't start until, like, Hoover or something like that.

[B]

Yeah, it's the 20th century.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So give me a couple, because I also then have the two worst. With a couple of the worst Google reviews that I think you will find funny.

[B]

Okay, now. So now I'm rating their homes.

[C]

You're rating their homes or libraries? The worst ones.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to say by Google Review.

[C]

How do you. How do you judge it? Otherwise? We'll do Google Review.

[B]

Okay, I'm going to say Andrew Johnson.

[C]

Andrew Johnson. Andrew Johnson.

[A]

See,

[C]

no, no, Andrew Johnson is not on the list.

[B]

What about Chester A. Arthur?

[C]

Chester A. Arthur is number five.

[B]

All right.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. He comes in. He comes in. Now, in the interest of time, get one more guess, and then I'll give you the bottom two.

[B]

Okay. Okay, I'm going to say Franklin Pierce.

[C]

Pierce is number six.

[B]

Oh, dang it.

[C]

Okay, so. So number number two. Number two is James Monroe, which we were mocking. Which I was mocking as a double wide. So there's a couple. A couple of the bottom reviews. 18 bucks to walk around the property. A little steep, don't you think? Come on, people. This one's good. Very unfriendly. Very unfriendly staff. Hope you didn't. On the Tour. Hope you didn't come to see Monroe's home. Very little remains. Gosh, why would I expect to see Monroe's home? Maybe because you sold me 20 ticket telling me it was. I would give it less than one star if it would let me. Which is funny. This one's good too. Unless you're interested in listening to history of old furniture, you can miss this one. So that. I like that.

[B]

That was cool. Okay, look, there's a lot of people that are signing up just because it's a history of old furniture.

[C]

Yes, it's true. So the number one, number one worst Google reviewed is John Tyler.

[B]

Oh, well, you know what? He was the number one worst Google reviewed president.

[C]

So it's the Sherwood Forest Plantation. And there's a couple. There's a couple things about this. The Tyler family is milking this.

[B]

Okay, all right.

[C]

Not worth 10 bucks given you can only walk around the grounds. Next pay 10 bucks, drop it in a box to get a pamphlet about the house. There wasn't a single person. I don't know why. Don't waste your money. One of the workers dogs charged my husband, barking and growling. No apology given. It's not worth the price of $10 per person.

[B]

I kind of want to go now.

[C]

And then the last one we couldn't go in and would have been charged just to walk around the grounds. But signs posted said don't pet the family dog. There's a lot of dog related things.

[B]

So is it the Tyler family that still owns it?

[C]

Well, yeah, they're milking this one.

[B]

So John Tyler, a plantation owner is. His family is reduced to apparently ill tempered dogs and pamphlets.

[C]

It's the Sherwood Forest Plantation for John Tyler.

[B]

Where is it at in Virginia?

[C]

I don't know. I don't know exactly where. I'll pull it up right now. I'll tell you just in one second where it is. It is in Charles City, Virginia.

[B]

Okay. John Tyler, one of the most hated. In fact, John Tyler's utter ineptitude as a president is what opens the door, what spurs Joseph Smith, the prophet, to run for president. Because John Tyler, we've told this tale of woe before. Richard's looking at his watch and hating me. You know what?

[C]

It's my fault.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, is this fun with numbers? Is that. Yeah, if this was fun with numbers, we're going to have a conversation.

[C]

Well, so at this point, fun with numbers. I'm turning more into the count from Sesame Street. Ten. Ten presidents. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. So John Tyler was the president who was the vice president of William Henry Harrison Harrison, the first Whig president elected. Whigs are all kinds of excited. They finally control the Congress, they finally control the presidency, and then William Henry Harrison promptly dies. John Tyler, lifelong Democrat, was not a Whig, didn't believe in any Whig policies, hated the Whigs, but, but was so mad at the Democratic party that he'd broken with the, the Jacksonian Democrats and he sided with the Whigs and so they put him on their ticket because he was super popular in Virginia and in the South. And the Whigs were always worried that, you know, because they had a lot of anti slavery people in their party that you needed to, you know, you needed to show your, your slavery, you know, bona fides, right? You need to be like, no, no, no, we're okay with slaves. I mean, look this guy. Yeah, slice. I mean the, the, the Whig establishment was very concerned to try to be national by pointing out the fact that they, you know, had slaves. Whereas, you know, there's all kinds of abolitionists in the Whig party who hate that, hate that aspect of it. Well, so Tyler's put on as vice president solely to win the presidency. Up to this point, no president has died in office. No one even knows what a transition to a vice president is. And then almost immediately after he's inaugurated, William Henry Harrison dies. So John Tyler, who's a lifelong Democrat, doesn't accept or believe in any of the Whig policies, unelected, essentially because he was a vice president, becomes president. And he is the most hated man in America because the Democrats blame him for the reason why the Whigs won the election. They're like, the only reason why we lost our first election to this Whig is because a Democrat joined his party. And the Whigs will soon come to hate John Tyler because John Tyler then begins to veto every single Whig bill and policy that they pass in the Congress because he doesn't actually believe in a national bank or in a system of canals or the other things that Whigs were trying to push. So John Tyler becomes the most hated president in America. And that's the reason why the 1844 presidential campaign was essentially this open campaign. Sure, there was an incumbent president, everyone hated him, both parties. And so both the Democrats and the Whigs were scrambling for candidates. And it's when they respond to Joseph saying that they're not going to do anything to help the Mormons that Joseph says, well, I'm not going to have my people vote for people that say they're not going to help us. And he declares himself A candidate for president.

[C]

So if you're in Richmond, it's just 41 minutes by car. South, southeast.

[B]

I think we should organize a standard of truth tour that does all the sites in Virginia, but especially with a shot collar. Goes to the John Tyler. The John Tyler home.

[C]

Yeah, it goes. It just. But it doesn't admits. It misses Jefferson. It misses.

[B]

So. So we have a standard of truth tour that doesn't go to Mount Vernon, it doesn't go to Monticello. It only goes to like, like James.

[C]

John Tyler, James Monroe house.

[B]

Yeah, it goes to. It doesn't go to like Robert E. Lee's house, but it does go to like. It goes to like the fourth in ranking confederate or something like that. Is that so like the second class tour? Is that what we're looking at?

[C]

Well, it's on brand. Yeah, for sure.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. Look, thank you so much for joining us. I know this was got a little off topic as we were talking about it, but I do think it's important for people to realize that your pioneer ancestors or your spiritual ancestors, if you just joined the church last week and if you haven't joined the church yet, they could be your ancestor tomorrow. The amount of persecution that they were going through, and it's not just from your average, you know, evangelical pastor with a microphone. It's coming from the highest levels of government. And it is repeated and it is loud and it's terrifying. And so many of the decisions they make during this time period are based on that reality. The reality is they see the federal government as an enemy because the federal government is saying, we are your enemy. And so they kind of take them at their word. So thank you so much for joining us.

[A]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them until next time.