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A
From the dark and dusty files of the Standard of Truth Archive. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmar.
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B
Sorry, sorry. The reason why I started off like that is what we are dropping today is something that we recorded many years ago.
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C
Four years ago, January of 2022.
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A
Wow. Yeah. So more than that, even. Yeah, so.
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B
And it was on the King Follett Sermon, and I realized that that's pretty heavy. And after realizing that I would have to do, like, I don't know, 75 episodes to even approach it and deciding, you know what, I don't really think
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A
we want to do this.
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B
Let's just punt on that and let's talk more about whether or not Jingle
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A
Bells is a good song.
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B
So I said, let's punt.
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A
So we've had.
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B
Sitting in our coffers. It sounds like there's money sitting in our archives for years. We've had this episode that you're about to hear. So please excuse the very dated references and the fact that I might have been better back then than I am now.
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A
Almost certainly, in fact.
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C
Well, yes. And you're going to hear now the Richard that you've. By the way, Garrett, thanks for having me back. The.
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A
The.
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C
The Richard you're going to listen to is. Is a much dumber rich. This is. This is Dr. Richard Leduc, obviously, here before you. That Richard was a. Was a far.
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B
He was barely. Adjunct Professor Ledouque, barely.
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C
Barely clinging to that. And. And he. So I want to apologize in advance for probably any of the reading that I do that is. That is poor compared to the reading that I do now. That is. That is. So. This is so perfect. Much like a West Ham football fan.
- [02:00]
B
Yeah, well. But they won't know that joke till the next episode. So, listen, we had an inquiry about this. We decided that we were going to talk about it. Then we decided, you know what, we probably need to release this because we talk about a lot of the groundwork leading up to the King Follett Sermon in this episode. So we are releasing. So, like, this is. This is like, you know, from the lost tracks from your favorite band. Only if there was a band that you didn't like and didn't want any of their lost tracks. So. So think of a band that you don't like. We found out from some of you that you were not as big a fans of Dominic the Donkey as I am. We had several fans ride in and tell us how much they hated it. So it is a little bit of a blast from the past. So we're just introing it here so that you know what we're doing. And then in the next episode, we're going to kind of talk about it
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again
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B
as we move towards a conversation about the multiple versions of this sermon and its importance in Latter Day Saint
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A
theology and why it's so often attacked by those who reject the truth claims of our faith.
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B
Does that sound good, Richard? You think it's.
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C
No, it's great. So, for what it's worth, I love the topic and I loved this episode and was bummed that we didn't release it. And you have spoken about a lot of these things. There's a lot of episodes about the nature of God, D&C. 93. There's a lot of elements over the past six years of US doing this where you've talked about a lot of these different things in the 510+ episodes that we've done. But this one cuts to the quick. And for what it's worth, I really
- [03:46]
B
enjoyed it, so everyone should know. I have not yet re listened to
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A
it since we first recorded it, so
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B
for all I know, I could be saying some of the dumbest things. And then everyone listening's like, yeah. So it's just like a regular podcast then? Yeah, it's just like a regular podcast then. So bear with us and we will take you on the King Fallen Odyssey.
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A
We.
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B
Which sounds like it would be a good name for a song.
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C
It would be a great name for a song for sure.
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A
Yeah.
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B
Okay, we're going to work on that. We're going to workshop that. We'll get back to you. Thanks so much for listening.
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D
Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet, prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.
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B
Hi.
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A
Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Richard Leduc.
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C
Hello, Garrett. In this week's podcast, we have received several requests from listeners, namely Aaron H. And Marilee B. Who wanted to know a little bit more about the King Follett sermon.
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A
Wow. So we're going to just. We're just going to dive right, right in to. That's a. That's a heavy one. So the first time I heard about the King Follett sermon, I thought that it was about like a King of a country named Follet.
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C
So did I on my mission. I had heard it and I thought almost exactly the same thing.
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A
Well, I mean the doctrine that's presented in the King Follett sermon is so radical that it is in and of itself something that is. You know, we talk all the time about what makes us blaspheming Latter Day Saints as you know, in Christianized. This is one of those things.
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C
Well, you've mentioned several things. You talk a lot actually about the radical nature of our doctrine, whether it's Moses 1, DNC 76, DNC 93 there's
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A
all kinds of rat. But, but the king of all its sermon is like the, it's like the, the, the dessert.
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B
It is, it is really, it's actually
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A
more, it's like the conglomeration of them all. I mean, if you had to look at Joseph Smith's revelations that he receives and reveals to the world. In many ways the King Follett sermon is a, it's a logical extension of what the Lord has already revealed in things like doctrine covenant section 93 and doctrine covenant section 76 and in Moses 1. And so. But it's very clear and it's very straightforward and frankly it's actually very difficult to wrap your heads around it. So before we even get to the sermon, it's important to know that Joseph in that sermon says that it will take you a long time after you've died to understand this.
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C
So this will be a three parter,
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then it'll be a 38 parter. Why am I planning to die in three episodes? I guess. I mean, the reality is it is very complex and difficult. But I know people hear about it all the time, so let's at least address it and talk about it. All of this of course stems from the very radical Latter Day Saint belief that we believe we can become like God. And that is something that, you know, a primary child like, you know, could probably recite to somebody. But it is the pinnacle of blasphemy to a Christian. The idea that we believe we could become like God is just, it is a blasphemy to what they believe God is. As we talked about this before, they believe God is the only self existent being and that what makes God God is that God has always existed. And we talked about this with doctrine and covenant section 93. The claim that we have existed as long as God is already, you know, ripping apart the traditional Christian understanding of who we even are, the King Follett sermon is going to go even further into what type of being God is. And in perhaps the most blasphemous sentence ever uttered by any Christian, how God came to be God. Now to a Latter Day Saint this doctrine can be confusing and yet beautiful. To a Christian it seems like the height of arrogance. It seems like the, the denigration of God to describe this very thing. The aseity of God we once talked about when everyone stopped listening. So prepare for that again. I remember when I first learned about the doctrine that we could become like God. I was actually reading the Doctrine and Covenants as a teenager and I came to that in doctrine section 132 that said, you know that they are gods, right? That these, these the people who have been exalted, that they're gods. Never had heard that before. You know, I say we hear about it in primary. I never heard about it my primary. I mean I, I remember going and talking to my dad and saying, dad, dad, this says we're going to become Gods. My dad's response was, well, not unless you start acting better.
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B
Which, which I thought was, I mean
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C
he took that opportunity to get on
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you about not doing the dishes. Yeah, he could have, we could have rejoiced together in this truth that I've
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learned we're gonna become gods, but damn,
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it was just a very matter of fact, of course we're gonna become white gods. Why haven't you mowed the lawn? You know, that kind of thing.
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A
I think a lot of Latter Day Saints don't recognize how radical that belief is. But it's the reason why a Christian, it's one of the reasons why a Christian is going to say you believe in a different God, you worship a different Jesus. The very fact that you think that that's even possible. And as we talked about before, a Latter Day Saint might say something like, yeah, but if God is all powerful, why couldn't he make me? Like why wouldn't God want me as his child to be like him? I want the same things for my children to have everything I have and more. Right. But remember the theological problem with that for a Christian and that is they believe that God is the only self existent being that existed always. And so however much power, glory, authority, you know, God gives you after this life, the one thing that a Christian will admit to that God can't do is God can't make you exactly like him because God can't make you always have existed because he created you. So you can't always have existed, you can only exist going forward. Sure, that's Fine, but you can't always have existed. Well, Joseph Smith is going to receive a very different understanding of God through the process of his revelations. And it'd be helpful if you have a chance, if you, if you haven't listened to our doctrine coming section 93, that's. There's a lot in there. But I, I think it's, it'd be helpful for you to go back and review it if you don't remember
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C
or
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if you haven't heard it for the first time or if you've heard it for the seventh time or you're still downloading it, trying to figure out how to get it to play on whatever Zune you're using to listen to this. Then again, just keep downloading it and maybe eventually you'll get it going. Before I get into it, I want to kind of lay the groundwork. One of the aspects of Joseph Smith's life is that he felt very deeply when people passed away. It's interesting that Joseph Smith really seems to use funeral sermons as one of his primary means of giving very powerful information about the other side and about our purpose in this life. Just, you know, a couple of four examples. The doctrine of baptism for the dead, which is again, the height of blasphemy. The idea that you could be saved by a choice you make in the next life rather than one that you make in this life. That's just not what Christians believe. Christians believe that you have to accept Jesus in order to be saved. And then Joseph Smith teaches, except when you don't, which is most of the time. And that is a very difficult concept for people to wrap their head around. In Joseph Smith's time today in the church, it's one of these beliefs that's just, oh, great, I love this. I love the idea of baptism for the dead. But it was at Seymour Brunson's funeral that Joseph is going to outline this idea that we could be baptized in behalf of our deceased loved ones who never had an opportunity to be baptized. So it's at these funerals that Joseph often slips from this world into another. And one of those I want to highlight first is what he says at the funeral of one of his really close friends, Elias Higbee. Judge Higby. He was a judge. He and Joseph had been very, very close with one another. It is a very sad commentary, unfortunate reality that Higbee's kids become full on apostates. They are actually two of those who are part of the Nauvoo Expositor that is going to Be the forerunner of Joseph's first arrest and then murder in Carthage jail. When Higbee dies, Joseph gives this funeral sermon. And, you know, we have a couple different accounts of it. I'm gonna. I'm gonna use the one that's. This is the 13th of August, 1843. It's coming from Martha Jane Knowlton Corey. She says. Well, she records that Joseph said there is a thought more dreadful than that of total annihilation. That is a thought that we shall never meet with, though meet again with those we loved here on earth. Think about that's why the way he's at least opening this up. Worse than not existing is not being with people that you love. That that's worse. The worst thing that could happen is that you're not with people we love. I had some idea of a resurrected, of a resurrection and glory beyond the grave which God and angels had secured and yet had not any knowledge or intelligence of any law or any by which it was to be obtained. So kind of giving. This is what, sorry, Joseph saying, suppose that he had died without that. Suppose. Suppose you die without having. With having some idea of resurrection and glory, but having no idea how that actually happens. Well, you lose a friend. You come up in. You come up in the resurrection hoping to see him again, but find yourself separated from them to all eternity. And become aware of the fact that through ignorance of principles of the resurrection and reunion, you will never behold that dear friend nor ever enjoy his society. This thought, I say, of being disappointed in meeting my friend in the resurrection is to me more dreadful than of ceasing to suffer by a cessation of being. Could I tell the fact as. As it is, all that heard me would go home and never say one more word about God or Christ or religion, until they had received the same assurance from heaven which would set their souls to rest. By placing it all beyond doubt. What consolation have we, what power, what reason to expect one more thing, one thing more than another in eternity. He then quotes Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 22. You have come to an innumerable company of angels to the general assembly of the church of the firstborn. And have were they brought thus far? I answer, and for. For what were they brought? This farther's missing word there I answer that they come to these personages to learn the things of God and to hear revealed to them the order and glory of the kingdoms of God. I would ask again, is there a word on record that was revealed by those angels and spirits? If there is, where is it to be? Found again I inquire, what is the order and organization of the spirits of the just made perfect? Let me tell you, brethren, that which is to be revealed, which is kept from the foundation of the world, will be revealed to sucklings and babes. Then he quotes Malachi, Chapter four. Behold, the day cometh and that shall burn as an oven, and all the proud, and they that do wickedly shall be a stubble, and they that cometh shall burn them up. Although in the beginning God created the earth standing in the water, and out of the water still in the end it shall be burned. And few men left before God that before, but before that sorry God shall send them Elijah the prophet, and he shall revive, reveal unto them the covenants of their fathers with relation to the children, and the covenants of the children relation to their fathers, that they may have the privilege of entering into the same in order to affect their mutual salvation. And I saw another angel descending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried, saying, hurt not the earth, nor the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. So he knows according to Revelation. Now I would ask who knows the seal of the living God? Behold the ignorance of the world. A measure of this ceiling is to confirm upon their head, in common with Elijah, the doctrine of election or the covenant with Abraham, which when a father and mother of a family have entered into their children who have not transgressed are secured by the seal wherewith parents have been sealed. And this is the oath of God unto our father Abraham. And this doctrine shall stand forever. It's talking very much about this eternal sealing of families. Mourners, I exhort you to do as your father and husband would direct. Be sealed by, and be sealed by the, by the servants of God. Eternal life is to know the only true God and his son Jesus, without which there is no salvation. So you have, you have something going on here where he's already discussing these things of what happens after this life and explaining that it is this sealing power that's going to allow these, these families to be together, to be secured forever. That's August 13th. Well, only a few weeks later, on August 27th, he's going to be giving a sermon in which he's going to. He's going to be talking about the power of the priesthood and the powers in the world. And he's going to express something that he's going to reiterate multiple times again. He's going to be talking about this same sealing power let's go to this point here. This is a sermon Joseph smith is giving. August 27, 1843. Abraham's priesthood was of a greater power than Levi's and Melchizedek was of a greater power than Abraham. He says, I ask, was there any sealing power attending to this priesthood, talking about the Levitical priesthood, priesthood that would admit a man into the presence of God? Oh no. But Abraham's was a more exalted power or priesthood. He could talk and walk with God and yet consider how this great man was when, when even this patriarch Abraham gave a tenth part of his spoils, as he's talking about Melchizedek, and then received a blessing under the hands of Melchizedek, even the last law or a fullness of the law or priesthood which constituted him a king and a priest after the order of Melchizedek or an endless life. Now, if Abraham had been like the sectarian world and would not have received any more revelation, what would have been the consequence? It would have damned him.
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B
So he's.
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A
First of all, he's using kind of a Part of the reaction to this is that as Joseph receives revelation, of course the reaction from most people is, well, that can't be true, because that's not what I read in the Bible. When they've made the Bible the end of all knowledge that they can receive. Anytime Joseph teaches something that's not in the Bible, the response is, well, then that must not be true. Well, then how can you ever receive any truth if it's not already in the Bible? Many Protestants would say, well, you can't. All the truth is in the Bible. The Levitical priesthood was an appendage to the Melchizedek priesthood or the whole law of God when in full force or power in all of its parts and bearings on the earth. It is understood by many by reading this chapter that Melchizedek was king of some country or nation on earth. But it was not so in the original. It reads king of shalom, which signifies king of peace or righteousness and not of any country or nation. Then he really kind of gets to the heart of the reason why I went to this. Not only is he talking about the sealing power in the next life, he says men will set up stakes, say, thus far will we go and go no further. Now think about the imagery that Joseph created. He actually says this in an earlier sermon, a couple weeks earlier, same thing. Men will set up stakes and say, I'm not going any further beyond this. They seek to dictate to God, what it is that is true, rather than the other way around. They in many ways argue with God, argue with what the prophets of God have to say. They say, no, that's not what I think. And they, they set up stakes. I. Okay, fine, I'll go with you. That the Book of Mormon is the word of God, okay? Even though everyone else says it's not. I believe that it is, but I'm not believing that people can be saved after this life. That that's that. You know, Book of Mormon being the word of God is one thing, but you're trying to tell me you don't even have to accept Jesus in this life. You can see what it, what he means by setting up stakes. People draw lines in the sand all the time and say, this is as far as I will go in my belief, and I'm not going to go any further. Joseph's response to that idea of rejecting new beliefs because it's further than you want to go is, did Abraham set up stakes when called upon to offer his son? Did the Savior no view him fulfilling all righteousness? Again, on the banks of Jordan, also on the Mount transfigured before Peter and John, they're receiving the fullness of the priesthood, of the law of God, setting up no stake, but coming right up to the mark in all things here after he returned from the Mount, did ever language of such magnitude fall from the lips of any man? Hearken him. All power is given unto me, both in heaven and on earth. So here Joseph kind of cuts to the quick pretty quickly in this sermon. Jesus and Abraham perhaps our two most important figures. Obviously Jesus is our savior, but if you're just even talking historically, Abraham's the father of all monotheistic religions and Jesus is clearly the reason for Christianity. Neither one of them set up stakes and said, well, I'll go this far, but I'm not going beyond that God, you better meet me halfway. There isn't really a meeting halfway. There it is both of them doing exactly what their father asked them to do. Now, why is Joseph talking about this? You'll see the connection here very quickly. View the Son of God saying that it behooveth me to fulfill all righteousness. Also in the garden saying, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me. Nevertheless, thy will be done. Here I think Joseph reminding his listeners that while Jesus chose to perform the atonement for us, it wasn't because that's what he wanted to do. Now, of course he wanted to in the sense that he wanted to save us. But he did it because it was the will of the Father. He did it because that was the only way that he could save us. And that's why he asked God in the garden if it's possible, Let this cup pass from me. If there is any other way to save the sinners of this world outside of this horrific suffering that I'm going through. Jesus asks, please let the cup pass. What was the design of the Almighty in making man? It was to exalt him to be as God. So Here in this 1843 sermon, Joseph is being as direct as you possibly can be. Why does humankind exist? So that they can become like God. If you remember a few episodes back talking about the book of Moses, what is Moses told? It is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. The purpose of humankind's existence is so that they can become like God. Moses is telling Joseph that in June, as he receives that revelation, June of 1830, the Lord is telling Moses, now Joseph receiving that revelation, that God's entire purpose is bringing humankind unto eternal life. And here Joseph is reiterating that, that the purpose is to exalt him to be his God. The scriptures say you are God's and it cannot be broken heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ equal with him possessing all power, etc. The mystery, power and glory of the priesthood is so great and glorious that the angels desire to understand it and cannot.
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B
Why?
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A
Because of the tradition of them and their fathers in setting up stakes and not coming up to the mark in their probationary state. So Joseph's clearly part of what the point of teaching this is. You can't have a preconceived notion of what it is that you will accept that's being taught by God. You have to, like Abraham, be willing to accept things even if they don't make any sense. I mean, Abraham story, just think about this. The only reason he has a son is because of a miracle that God wrought upon him. And now that same God is saying that he needs to sacrifice that same son. There doesn't seem to be any dialogue beyond that. No explanation, no Abraham saying, now God, if you'll read in the scriptures, that will be read later. They haven't been written yet, but a couple thousand years from now they're going to be written. And in it one of the commandments is thou shalt not kill. And I just thought that maybe you and I could have a discussion about this. I feel like maybe you know I need a different HR manager. I mean, I mean that you don't have any of that now. I don't know that that didn't happen. But you have Abraham asked to give up the thing that matters more to him than anything else in the world. You have Jesus who's going to suffer for all the sins, all the iniquities, all the difficulties of the world. And then you have other people who are unwilling to sacrifice anything for the church. That I will go to church as long as it's comfortable. I'll go to church as long as the speakers are always the kind of speakers I like. I'll go to church as long as, you know, I don't ever hear anything taught over the pulpit or in my classes that offends me or bothers me. And I'll go to church as long as I feel like no one's ever judging me. We put all kinds of stakes up, saying, I will believe as long as you tell me things that I already believe. As long as what you reveal is stuff I've read 10,000 times, then I'm in. But as Joseph would later say in another sermon that it's almost impossible to teach the, the people because they fly apart like glass when they, when they learn something, when they hear something that they haven't heard before. So it's important as a mindset going into even discussing the King Fallet sermon is that first of all, this is going to be doctrine that really isn't fully revealed. Other places, although you have many places where that in both scripture and in Joseph sermons that are pointing towards this idea that the purpose of our existence is to become like God. It's not the, it's not the reward you get if you somehow make it through this life and make it to the celestial kingdom. It's certainly that, but that's actually not the point. The reason why the world was created was so that the children of God could become like God. It's not ancillary to the creation of the world. It's not the, it's not the parting gift that you go home with if you just so happen to make it through this cesspool of tears and suffering. It's the entire point, the reason why you're here, the reason why you decided in the premortal life to follow God's plan. And the very fact that you are walking around means you decided that you, you accepted God's plan even though you knew how much suffering would be entailed. Well, let's turn to it's going to take us several podcasts to get through all of the King Fallet sermon. Now, there are multiple versions of the King Fallet sermon. Not only were there multiple contemporary recordings of it made when Joseph gave it, there were also. There was also a public published version of it that was published in the Times and Seasons newspaper by the church shortly thereafter. There are some discrepancies between the different versions. There are some that are more complete than others. You know, one version is just a few lines, you know, the others are much longer. I'm going to be primarily using Wilford Woodruff's account of, of the sermon that's that comes from his journal. So I'll be primarily doing that as we go through it. Who is elder King Follett? Well, he is a young Latter Day Saint husband and father who is digging a well and some rocks collapse on him and kill him. And so it's a very tragic death. As Joseph is speaking at this funeral, this is a very tragic thing. This is not. This is not an, you know, an 80 year old who slowly slipped, you know, into death in their sleep. This is a young man who's leaving kids and a family behind. And so when Joseph gives that, gives that sermon, it's important to note, you know, you have a lot of really, really broken up people in the audience. You have a lot of people, especially friends and family, who perhaps are saying in their minds at least, how could God let this happen? King Follett was a very faithful member of the church. I mean, he joins the church and follows the church through all of its various travails and difficulties. He's not someone who is on the out, some kind of sinner or something being punished by God. And that's why rocks fell on him. I mean, he is a good man. And all of a sudden, in an instant, you know, it's from happiness and gaiety to he's dead. You've lost. You've lost this man rather than having him anymore in the future. And so this is a very solemn and tragic funeral. Now, as I've already expressed, some people feel relatively uncomfortable with the things that are taught in the King Follett sermon. And I think that's because it is the most radical teachings that Joseph Smith gives. And it's difficult to make all of the pieces that Joseph reveals in this sermon to fit with some of our existing mindset of how we've thought about this life and how we've thought about heaven and how we've thought about God and how we've Thought about the Atonement multiple times. I've been in situations where people who are uncomfortable with the content of the King Fallet sermon have attempted to try to wave it away. Kind of like we did in a previous podcast, the White Horse Prophecy, that, well, we don't even have good, we don't have good sources on this and we don't even know if this was even said. And this was many years later. And again, I understand what the impulse is. The impulse is I don't really understand this. So I'm just going to say that there's no way Joseph said it. The problem is, among Joseph sermons, it is by far one of the most well recorded. Does that mean that every person recording it didn't make any mistakes? No, of course it doesn't mean that anyone who's transcribing any sermon makes some mistake, period and end of story. But I think when people bring that, that when they raise that specter, what they're really trying to say is there are a lot of things in here that I'm not comfortable with. And so if I say that Joseph didn't really say them, then I don't have to actually work through the discomfort. Unfortunately, while that might be a comforting way of viewing the sermon, it's certainly not an academic way of viewing the sermon. We have multiple different accounts of this sermon and as I said, one that is then published in the church's newspaper. That's kind of a conglomeration of several accounts. They must have been getting sources from other people. So while we might not fully understand. Okay, we don't fully understand. It's not even a might not. We don't fully understand what Joseph is saying in the sermon or what, what the meaning of it is. It's not a very accurate statement to claim, well, you know, we don't really know what Joseph said. The reality is it's fairly clear what Joseph is talking about through our various sources that we have. Many of them are corroborated by even other sources. Like we just read some of them talking about mankind becoming like God or even doctrine and Covenant, section 93. So while we might not feel 100% comfortable with some of these things because they're mind blowing in that degree, this is not one of those cases where we just have no idea whether or not Joseph gave a sermon on this topic. You know, someone 50 years later said, oh yeah, I remember Joseph gave a sermon on resurrection. In which case a historian might say, well, Joseph might and he might not have, but how would I know since he's reminiscing 50 years earlier. These are fairly contemporary, you know, very shortly thereafter being recorded into people's journals and other and other records. Again, does that mean that they're 100% accurate? Of course not. They are not. They can't be. At the same time, if what you're looking for is to dismiss what Joseph teaches in the King Fallet sermon as not being accurate because you don't want to have to deal with the implications of what he's teaching, well, that's not a very academic approach to take to it. Non Latter Day Saint historians would verify that this is what Joseph Smith is in fact saying. We may not understand what he's saying, but that's a very different problem than saying that he never said it in the first place. It's one of the problems with sources. I mean, with the work that Le Jean Carruth and I did on, on transcribing the. The original shorthand notes that make up many of the sermons in the Journal of Discourse is one of the things we found was that there was considerable editing that was being done. Not by the speaker. There was considerable editing that was being done by the transcriber when they transcribed their. Their notes into the actual sermon in longhand. And so that itself was. It was a surprise to me when I did it, but it was also a big surprise to other Latter Day Saints who, who had always thought, well, you know, when I read a sermon in the Journal of Discourses, that must be word for word, you know, because they're thinking of a conference report. Right. Well, it's pretty easy to get word for word today. You can just keep replaying it and copying it down till you get it right. And you can always verify it if there's a. A question. These men are speaking extemporaneously almost entirely, usually without any notes, sometimes with the Scriptures. And the only way it could be captured at all is people writing it down in shorthand. And sometimes many of the times that we looked at those notes that were created were changed by the transcriber men, men like Watt, who wanted to make them sound better, wanted to edit for content or time before it was published, but made a lot of changes. We don't have that sense here. The reality is we probably need to deal with what it is that Joseph is recorded to have said. If you don't feel comfortable with it, if you feel like, well, I don't understand this, that's fine. That Joseph said, you won't understand it till after this life so welcome to everyone. Right. If you, if you feel like that. But at the same time, I think it is important to try to wrestle with it because it is such a profound teaching of Joseph Smith. And again, I'm going to be using primarily the Wilford Woodruff version of this, and if I switch and go to another version, I'll let you know. For the most part, or probably I'll just try to sneak it in there. Maybe you got to track this down, you know, a little bit of homework on your part. Woodruff notes in his journal that this is how he introduces it. The following important, edifying and interesting discourse was delivered by President Joseph Smith to about. He wrote at first 20,000 souls, but then he has 20 crossed out and 10,000 souls is inserted. So this is a very. This is a huge congregation. Whether there's 10,000 or 20,000, even if there's 5,000, that would be. This massive, massive gathering of saints was delivered by President Joseph Smith upon the subject of the death of elder King Follett and and then begins his recording of what Joseph taught. I now call the attention of this congregation while I address you upon the subject of the dead. The case of our beloved brother King Follett, who was crushed to death in a well, as well as many others who have lost friends, will be had in mind this afternoon and shall speak upon the subject in general, as far as I shall be inspired by the Holy Spirit to treat upon the subject. I want the prayers and the faith of the saints that I may have the Holy Ghost, that the testimony may carry conviction to your minds of the truth of what I shall say. And pray that the Lord may strengthen my lungs. There is strength here. Your prayers will be heard. Before I enter upon an investigation of this subject, I wish to pave the way and bring up the subject from the beginning that you may understand. I do not intend to please you with oratory, but with the simple truths of heaven. Edify you. Go to the morning of creation. To understand the decrees of Elohim at creation, it is necessary for us to have an understanding of God at the beginning. If we get a good start first, we can go right. But if you start wrong, you may go wrong. But few understand the character of God. They do not know that. They do not understand their relationship with God. The world know no more than a brute beast. And they know no more than to eat and to drink and to sleep. And this is all a man knows about God or his existence. So first of all, one of the things Joseph is coming out of the gate firing is people think they know who God is and they don't. In fact, making the comparison that they know so little about God, they're similar to animals in knowing so little about God.
- [45:22]
C
When Joseph Smith prepares for a large address like this, does. Do we have record of him kind of contemplating through and writing things down, or does he. What's the process by which he enters?
- [45:35]
A
We have very little record of any prepared sermon. The idea of, you know, the bishop asked me to speak on charity, so I, you know, spent the last three weeks, you know, looking it up on. On ChurchOfJesusChrist.org is. That's a modern function of the way people spoke. In fact, many times people were asked to speak completely unawares. I mean, you can read the journals of some of these people and they show up at a meeting and I was asked to speak, you know, on the subject of the resurrection. So it's not just, hey, I don't have my notes with me. I haven't even been contemplating the idea of resurrection. I've been studying this without my notes. And. And they, you know, generally get up to speak with the spirit, which is exactly what Joseph seems to be doing here. Now. He's clearly bothered by the fact that that Fallet has died and that this is such a tragedy. But we don't know how long he spent thinking about this, talking about this. As I said, it seems like he uses funeral sermons as a way of expounding upon very difficult and deeper doctrines. Two parts for that. I think one of them is because the. The people gathered are all thinking about God. They're all thinking about the next life. They're all thinking about the fact that this, their brother, their friend, their sister, their mother is gone from them. And it's when you lose someone that you love that what happens in the next life suddenly becomes very, very, very important to you. It's no longer a casual belief because I need certain things to be true or I won't have my loved one again. So I think that's part of what he. Why it happens is that he's trying to find a way to share these things that he's already had revealed to him. He's not saying, hey, I just had this revealed to me right now. He is expressing it to people when they are essentially at their most receptive point. They are thinking about God and the afterlife at a funeral more than they ever are thinking about God in the afterlife. The second part of that is he. Joseph even explains, just like he did with that Higby Sermon, funeral sermon that we just read, it's to the consolation of the people that mourn that you teach them the truths about who we are and what we are and why we're here and why death even has any claim on anyone. For Joseph, if you understand God, if you understand who you really are, then while you will be pained by the loss of someone you love when they're taken from you, you won't ever be in despair because you'll understand that not only is their death part of God's plan, their life and death on this earth is actually the entire point of creation. It's not incident to creation. It's not just because Adam and Eve ate some apples they shouldn't have, and now death is in the world. The entire point of creation is to have this life and die so that you can progress to become like God. And so I think Joseph sees true doctrine as being more comforting and consoling than anything else. I could get up and read you all kinds of funny stories about what a great guy King Fallet was, but what do you really want? What do you all really want? What do you all really want is, I want to know what the afterlife's like. I want to know why we suffer. I want to know how it's possible that I'm going to see my brother, my friend, my husband again. This is, I think, the reason why Joseph bears so much true doctrine in these sermons, because it's the way of soothing people's pains.
- [50:02]
C
One of the things that came up in one of the emails that asked that we talk about this, shared about all of the loss that Joseph Smith suffered in his life, and that this is a topic certainly that he would have contemplated and thought about and prayed about and sought revelation on for the past 14 years.
- [50:25]
A
There are two aspects to Joseph's life and character that make this topic very important to him. One is that Joseph, by all the accounts we look at, is someone who just deeply loves other people. He, as I've said before, is a lover of people. He loves being around people. He loves spending time with people. He wants to help people. He wants to make people happy. He loves other people. He loves his friends the way that he loves his family. He doesn't see a distinction between that and so at the same time that he deeply has deep personal connections with people that they become so central to who he is as a person. He also has had all kinds of tragedy, both personally and among his friends, as far as untimely deaths that have taken place. So you have someone who cares very deeply on a very emotional level for other people. And many of those people are passing away in an earlier fashion than you would expect. I mean, so for instance, Joseph himself, and we've talked about this, but his, while he's translating the gold plates, their first child, he and Emma, their first child. While Joseph and her have given up everything for God, their first child is born and dies at birth. So their relationship to each other and to God begins in the agony of burying this child. And then they have to give up everything again and they move to Ohio. And there Emma gives birth to twins who both die. Joseph is four years, you know, into the church, four years into his devoted sacrifice, suffering and help of trying to help God's kingdom be established on earth. And he doesn't even have his own child yet that survived. This pain of suffering is just, it's, it's intense. And Joseph of course, felt it even earlier. He had a very close connection with his brother Alvin and with Alvin, he, when Alvin dies, Joseph is, is, is just left without this second father figure that he thought he had. And Alvin's death is just clearly something that weighs heavily on Joseph all throughout his life to the point where it's actually driving some of his questions that lead to the very revelations that help us understand about the next life. And, and even in Nauvoo, while they're finally have some of their own children, they're finally, they're finally able to, to live the kind of life they were hoping to have as far as that regard, as far as being able to raise children. Even then, Joseph's going to have his 14 month old son, Don Carlos, die in 1841. At the same time he's going to have his brother Don Carlos die, his youngest brother. So Joseph is losing family members. He's already lost his father, who he's obviously very close to. And so look, everyone has family members die. Not everyone who's under the age of 45 has had multiple siblings pass away as well as multiple children pass away over the course of a decade. That, that, you know, people do have a higher incident of mortality in the 19th century. And there are certainly people who suffer far more than Joseph in that regard. But that is not a, it is an atypical thing in the sense that so many people in his personal family and his extended family have died young and untimely deaths. It, he is very well acquainted with this. And it's, it's one of the things that God speaks to when the first saints first go to Missouri. One of those faithful saints, Paulie Knight is going to die on the way or shortly after they get there. And it is devastating to the Knight family. And, And God is going to speak to the fact that the. The righteous who die, they die in the Lord, and they're. They're taking home to that God who, Who loves them. So Joseph has certainly thought about these things a great deal, and I think that in many ways, that's why this sermon is so powerful, because when he receives the knowledge from God about the purpose of this life, it meshes together with his constant yearning and desire to have the loved ones that he has lost back and also to understand what it is God has for them in the next life.
- [55:50]
C
This, to me, is one of the great tragedies of this sermon, is this is in April of 1844. And the depth of the doctrine taught in this sermon is to the point that you've made is such that we don't even really fully understand. And to me, that the great tragedy is just in a couple of months, we lose Joseph Smith. And if we just had just a little bit more, he seems like he is really.
- [56:24]
A
He's ready to unfold the mysteries of the kingdom.
- [56:26]
C
That's what. Yeah, and that's. And that's the, The. The great tragedy to me, as part of this is like, boy, you're just getting just the taste here. But it seems like it's. It's with all these revelations that are coming, it's building, building, building.
- [56:39]
A
And then, and remember, this is after the apostasy of people like William Law. It's very shortly after this that he's going to, you know, establish the Nauvoo Expositor. And part of, you know, we talked about this in the martyrdom podcast, but part of what William Law and his compatriots are going to print in that paper is that Joseph is teaching false doctrine directly related to this sermon. So it's interesting, both Joseph and Brigham will make multiple references to the fact that they have much more they would like to reveal to the saints, but the saints actually can't handle it. They aren't prepared to receive what it is that God wants them to. To know. Back to the sermon. He says. That all a man knows about God or his existence is essentially what an animal knows, except what is given by the inspiration of the Almighty. Go then to the beginning. Remember, he said, you got to start at the beginning. Go then to beginning that you may understand. I asked this congregation, what kind of a being is God? Turn your thoughts and your hearts and say, have any of you seen or heard him or communed with him? This is a question that may occupy your attention. So Joseph is going to ask the congregation a question first. That I think is actually a good question for all of us to contemplate for the next week before we give the remainder of the sermon, or at least more of it. What kind of a being is God? Doctrine coming section 93 elevated the status of humankind by stating that we were also in the beginning with God. But what kind of a being is God? What kind of a being? So think about that as you, as you contemplate these things. Who is your Heavenly Father and what is your relationship to him and your relationship to your purpose on this earth? Thank you so much for joining us this week. We will pick it up again next week. Stay tuned.
- [59:06]
D
Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmont and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time,