S6E28 Nauvoo Lyceum Part 2 and the Trinity

Summary

Standard of Truth Podcast: S6E28 “Nauvoo Lyceum Part 2 and the Trinity”

Date: July 16, 2026
Host: Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat (with Dr. Richard Leduc and additional co-host)
Purpose: To help Latter-Day Saints better understand their history and increase their faith, using original historical sources, expertise, and humor.

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Episode Overview

This episode takes listeners deep into the early 1840s Nauvoo Lyceum—a forum for adult learning set up under Joseph Smith—and unpacks Joseph’s teachings about the nature of God and the Trinity. The episode also addresses a listener’s question about the prevalence of Calvinism in modern Christianity. Interwoven throughout are insights on historical context, doctrine development, and some classic Standard of Truth banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Email: Calvinism in Modern Christianity

[09:23 - 15:25]

• Listener Background: The email comes from Elder Cooper, a missionary whose faith was critically reinforced by the podcast, leading him into LDS apologetics.
• Calvinist Ideas in Modern Christianity:
  • Dr. Dirkmaat explains that Calvinist theology still permeates much of American Protestantism, especially the doctrine of “once saved, always saved” (Perseverance of the Saints, the ‘P’ in TULIP).
  • Many American Protestants adhere to at least some Calvinist principles, with about 10-15% involved in denominations or churches that are “five-point Calvinist.”
    • Quote: “If you're not from a Wesleyan-Arminian type of Protestant school, then yeah, there's at least some parts of it. The most common is the assurance of salvation...the perseverance of the saints.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 10:13)
  • Notably, some denominations, like about 20% of Southern Baptists, follow Calvinist ideologies.
  • RC Sproul is referenced to highlight how even ardent opponents of Calvinism can, after deep theological study, become convinced it’s the only logical view if you accept God’s omnipotence and predestination.
  • Memorable Story: Dr. Dirkmaat recounts meeting a woman on his mission who gradually shifted toward Calvinist views—emphasizing the lived struggle to reconcile scripture, logic, and grace.

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2. The Lyceum in Nauvoo: History & Purpose

[21:02 - 22:42]

• What is a Lyceum?
  • Derived from the Greek tradition, a Lyceum was a place for public discussion and knowledge exchange—similar to adult education today.
  • In Nauvoo, the Lyceum included discussions on a wide range of topics, both secular and religious.
  • Quote: “It wasn't quite a debating society… but it was this idea that someone would, you know, present what they've learned about farming… And that people might be able to give commentary… it was like early access adult education, kind of.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 21:37)

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3. Joseph Smith’s Teachings on the Trinity

[24:31 - 39:14]

• Context: In early 1841, the adult Lyceum forum prompts a question (not recorded verbatim) about the nature of God/Trinity.

• Joseph’s Key Points:

  • He rejects the idea that the Godhead is “three heads in but one body,” clarifying that LDS doctrine teaches three separate beings: God the Father, Jesus the Mediator, and the Holy Ghost.
    • Quote: “Joseph said concerning the Godhead, that it was not as many had imagined, three heads and but one body. He said that three were separate bodies: God the first, and Jesus the Mediator the second, and the Holy Ghost. And these three agree in one.” (Dr. Dirkmaat quoting Lyceum notes, 25:46)
  • LDS interpretation of “the Father and I are one” means “one in purpose and unity,” not a literal oneness of being.
  • Historical Background: The doctrine of the Trinity developed as Christian converts from Judaism (extreme monotheists) sought to reconcile Jesus’ divinity with the “one God” belief—resulting in creedal language emphasizing mysterious, philosophical unity (the Nicene Creed).
    • Quote: “The philosophical development comes… God is not anything that you can comprehend. And somehow the Father is God and the Son is God… but they are all God in an incomprehensible way, neither dividing the essence nor uniting the persons. And it's considered a mystery.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 28:26)

• Broader Christian Reception:

  • Protestants critique Catholic doctrine except on the Trinity—an irony highlighted by Dr. Leduc.
    • Quote: “Protestants… Catholics did all these terrible things… But who Jesus is?… They nailed that. I've always thought that was interesting.” (Dr. Leduc, 32:09)
  • The persistence of this doctrine owes to Reformation leaders like Martin Luther accepting the earliest “orthodox” councils.

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4. Development of Christian Doctrine Without Prophetic Revelation

[33:04 - 38:59]

• Example: Infant Baptism

  • Dr. Dirkmaat explains how infant baptism arose out of practical need (high infant mortality + belief that baptism is necessary for salvation), rather than New Testament precedent—highlighting how doctrines develop “outside the light of the restored gospel” when direct revelation is gone.
  • Radical reactions, like those of Anabaptists (insisting on adult baptism), led to persecution, showing the intense cultural grip of man-made doctrinal developments.

• Trinity in Scripture:

  • Some apparent biblical references to the Trinity (e.g., “three that bear witness in heaven”) were later textual insertions, not found in the earliest manuscripts—a fact many modern Bibles now acknowledge.
    • Quote: “There's actually a lot of Bibles now that just either asterisk it or don't include it… because it's so well known that it's added later...” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 38:59)

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5. Other Notable Nauvoo Lyceum Teachings

[40:23 - 62:04]

a) Motives and Discipleship

• Joseph Smith counsels that all actions are driven by motives, and self-examination reveals the truth of one’s intentions—an early call for spiritual introspection.
  • Quote: “Every man is stimulated by a certain motive. Motive precedes action. And if we want to know ourselves, this is the key… examine the motive, what is it? And the fact will be made manifest.” (Joseph Smith via Lyceum notes, 40:23)
• Dr. Dirkmaat applies this to discipleship: The true test is whether you follow God when it’s uncomfortable—not just when teachings align with your prior views.
  • Quote: “The real test of discipleship is not, do I follow the prophet when he's saying everything that I already believe… The real test… is do you follow when it's what you don't already believe? That's when you are shouting in battle rather than snoring.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 44:39)

b) Friendship and Defense

• Joseph distinguishes between un-Christian vengeance (which belongs to God) and self-defense, saying you have the right to defend yourself and friends.
  • Quote: “Joseph said… there was a difference between the vengeance that belongeth to the Lord and a man defending himself or his friend.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 51:16)

c) The Nature of the Godhead—Further Detail

• In another Lyceum session (Feb/March 1841), Joseph reiterates:
  • The Father and the Son have physical bodies; the Holy Ghost does not.
    • Quote: “The Son had a tabernacle and so had the Father. But the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernacle.” (Joseph Smith, quoted at 56:06)
  • He references Adam being created in God’s image as evidence.
  • Teaches “line upon line,” doctrine/principles are revealed gradually.
    • Quote: “You can't just understand all there is to know about the Fall just like this. There's so much involved… the way God has to teach all people is to teach them line upon line… You can't know everything all at once.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 60:52)

d) Evangelism and Testimony of the Book of Mormon

• Dr. Dirkmaat closes by reaffirming the centrality of the Book of Mormon’s authenticity to LDS truth claims. Academic attempts to “explain away” its origin fail for lack of evidence; spiritual confirmation remains primary.
  • Quote: “The Book of Mormon is either true or it is not… There's not a way to make it… ‘kind of true.’ …If you read the Book of Mormon, the Holy Spirit will tell you.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 66:26)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It wasn't quite a debating society… it was like early access adult education, kind of.” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 21:37)
• “It is nothing of myself. Nothing. Not even saying the sinner's prayer. It is only God has decided to give the gift of grace.” (Recounted conversion to Calvinism, Dr. Dirkmaat, 16:17)
• On inner motives: “Every man is stimulated by a certain motive. Motive precedes action...[examine] the motive...and the fact will be made manifest.” (Joseph Smith as recorded in the Lyceum, 40:23)
• “The real test of discipleship is not, do I follow the prophet when he's saying everything that I already believe… The real test… is do you follow when it's what you don't already believe?” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 44:39)
• Joking about church culture: “You all know the guy you know in your ward who’s pretty certain that whether or not you have an emergency preparedness kit is just below the atonement…” (Dr. Dirkmaat, 48:06)
• On apologetics: “The reason that you do that is... not just certainly your ivory tower... But that's the point that you're making, right?” (Dr. Leduc, 66:23)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:37 – Opening intro & guest banter
• 09:23 - 15:25 – Main question: Calvinism and its prevalence
• 21:02 - 22:42 – History and purpose of the Nauvoo Lyceum
• 24:31 - 39:14 – Joseph Smith’s Lyceum teaching on the Trinity; the doctrine’s historical context
• 40:23 - 44:39 – Joseph’s admonition to examine one's motives; application to modern church life
• 51:16 – Joseph on friendship, self-defense, and vengeance
• 56:06 – Joseph’s detailed description of the Godhead (body of Father & Son)
• 66:26 – Concluding thoughts on the importance of the Book of Mormon to LDS claims

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Summary Flow & Takeaways

The episode blends deep doctrine with historical insight and approachable humor. It provides a compelling window into Nauvoo-era teachings, the backstory of Christian theology, and practical encouragement for modern Latter-Day Saints in sharing and reaffirming their testimonies. Particularly valuable are the explanations of how and why doctrines develop while emphasizing spiritual self-evaluation and rooting one’s testimony in the Book of Mormon.

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For listeners new and old, this episode is a robust mix of early church history, theology, and down-to-earth faith.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith, expertise and humor.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi. Welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmont, and I'm joined by my friend, Dr. Richard Leduc.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Got a lot bigger surprise applause line than I did.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You did well. Hello, Garrett. From the shadow of the Acropolis Greek restaurant in Palmyra, New York. We're here to. To answer. Is it. Answer a email or question and then get back. Right back to the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

To the Lyceum.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The Lyceum.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We keep promising Lyceum. And I've seen our numbers tank because we haven't been doing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But this one. This one's a little. Because we. We.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have King Follet that I'm trying to push off.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Did we ever do three?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We did three.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I thought we only did two.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We might have only done two. I don't know.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Let's say that we did three.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We did three.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So that everyone thinks I've done it, and then when they go to search for it, I can't find it. Oh, you have to be in the right spiritual mindset.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, so the Lyceum, though, talked a little bit about the nature of God, though. Is that what we're going to do here though, as well?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, there's going to be some things.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's good.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I like how you think that this is planned and that we have rhyme to our reason. We have a live studio audience of folks. We didn't just pipe in the applause sound, but we could start doing this could be like a sitcom from the 80s.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Where it's like, you know, and Garrett comes into the room like.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like Small Wonder.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So, wow. That's where you went.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, like, how many of you have seen the show Small Wonder? Are you. Zero percent of you have seen it. Zero of you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How many of you have seen Cipher in the snow?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay, see, there we go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

See, there was no after.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The guy's got a robot daughter. No one has seen this show. Okay. I feel I should have said alf. How many of you seen alf?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

We now have someone raising their hand in pity that she actually hasn't seen it but sees you drowning. And she's like, I I just. Yeah, I saw it. I saw it. Just be quiet.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, maybe she wasn't. Maybe, maybe you weren't familiar, but when I explained it, you're like, oh, the robot daughter.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yes. I. I think she. Okay, all right. That. It's a different show. All right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Least favorite studio audience.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah. Well, I mean it. We've started giving the studio audience an opportunity to leave and providing them transportation and it's like giving. You know, it's like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know how some states try to get rid of their homeless problem by giving them free tickets to Hawaii.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or California.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's what happened.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

We gave.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We said, you know what?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

There's a bus that could take you back to a nice air conditioned room

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

in a hotel where you don't have to listen to us.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And it was a stampede.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Like the Israelites out of Egypt.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

They were clamoring over each other. One guy got pushed. It was very. The bus driver stood up immediately and read. Yeah. He sprinted. I said, you don't have to be here. And the table came up with him. Yeah. Troy's like, see ya. All right.

[Narrator]

All right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hello. Dr. Dirk Mott and Dr. Leduc. I hope that's how it's spelled. He spelled it close.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He failed to capitalize your D in your name.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, since France lost in the World cup, it's. I am Elder Cooper, coming to you from Mexico. I'm a big fan of the podcast and I decided I needed to write. I know you guys get a mountain of emails, so hopefully you see this one. Dr. Dirkmaat. Not only am I from Spanish frock.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Richard.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Richard.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He said it's a Spanish fork.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, we don't know that. Yeah, we'll get the crack research staff on how many towns are named Frock

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

F R. Okay. Yeah. The over under on number of towns in America named with no other name. Just frok.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Two and a half.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I'm going under mgm.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

MGM Sports. Two and a half. Also there. We shouldn't gamble.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think President hinckley.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

President Hinckley. 2005 April conference.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Even though we sometimes talk about it, I hope everyone realizes how stupid gambling is.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Unless you've got a sure thing.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

No, you don't ever have one. This is the reason.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Some people.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Some people don't gamble because the prophet

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

told them not to.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I'm one of those people.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Other people don't because they'd be terrible at it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's why I don't do it.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, that's why I don't. I mean, the profit kind of. But primarily.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Primarily, I work too hard for the money I earn.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Not only am I from Spanish Frock, but. But for the best part of a decade, one of my closest friends has been your son, Elder Dirkmont. Thanks for raising him. Well, Angie.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

She's not even here to hear the. She left. Yeah, she found out there was a free bus ticket she got Hawaii.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

She's not on the tour bus.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

She got, like, on a city bus to get the heck out of here.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Anyways. After many, many, many hours. I love the idea of your wife

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

leaving you, but this is how she does it. Why? Is it funny to you that my wife leaves? No, she chooses this moment.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're at the Palmyra. At the Palmyra City town hall. Space used to be an LDS church, so if it looks kind of like. Kind of Mormony, that's the reason why.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

This is how we get them. You know, we just start building buildings and then we start just. Why are we selling them back? It's all the architecture. This is our plan. Well, the.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So if you can go look, there's.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

We won't be hiding in a. I'm saying this time.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. So if you go to the chapel, they've turned that into kind of like the. The place where the city council sits, and then people can come and turn into like a parks and rec situation. People complain about squirrels and stuff. Anyway, after many, many hours of listening to the pod in the mornings before study, I finally decided that your expertise in early church history is even more impressive than your expertise in Age of Empires. It's close, though. I kept. What is your Age of Empires civilization? Well, is anyone.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

How many?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Raise your hand if you're familiar with that. Aren't my kids or Garrett's kids and familiar with Age of Empires?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Nobody is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, hey. All right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We need to talk.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

All right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We need to talk later.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Talk about small wonder. So very exciting.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You don't have to pretend that you've seen it anymore. You can stop pretending.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

It's fine.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So we have one person. What's your civilization?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, he's talking about age of Empires 2.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And in Age of Empires 2, I mean. I mean, there were lots of them that I could do, but I really liked the Byzantines. They're very good. You know, maybe the Turks.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, very good. I kept listening to the podcast because it's only slightly more interesting than rereading the missionary standards booklet. I attribute this to Richard because I tried watching fair video of Garrett explaining the Book of Mormon translation and Got distracted by falling asleep.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's about right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't remember who the host was because I only made it about 27 seconds, but I'm guessing that they had to break the word of wisdom to drink coffee to produce that one. Wow, that's very funny. I'm going to ignore Professor Leduc now and keep addressing Dr. Dirk Moss because he's a Bears fan.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It means you're a Bear, right?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Skull, like the tobacco.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, no, no, no, no. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What does it mean?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I wanted you ask the teenagers here.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

S K O L Skole is a chewing tobacco. I assume that's what it means, Troy. Chewing tobacco. No. What is it? What does it mean?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Does it mean anything?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

All right, we'll get the correct research staff on it. At this point. I think it's a chewing tobacco. I also want to thank you for the podcast. I came to my mission with a lot of doubts, and I came in contact with many of the attacks that are made on the church and Joseph Smith. I didn't have many answers, and I have a need to understand things. So when your son told me about the podcast and that it was free for missionaries and talked about the Prophet, I gave it a go. I didn't know anything about religious scholarship or everything it covers, but this podcast was the catalyst for me entering the world of LDS apologetics. Really? It was what saved my testimony. I found answers and reason. I found that my faith and beliefs could be defended. I learned that they made sense, and I learned the reasons why. Now I keep learning about apologetics, but because I love it, not because I have doubts. And that is in thanks to the podcast. So thanks. Way to go. My question, how prominent is Calvinism?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, boy.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

In contemporary Christianity? I was under the impression that it was pretty much dead out. But the more I listened to the podcast, it seems like many Protestants have these beliefs. Then I watched a debate between Jacob Hansen and Pastor James White, and he made it through that one. But not your.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, I was on the screen for 27 seconds. Seconds. He's watching.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's watching a. A Protestant debate between Jacob Hansen and Pastor James White and realize that non LDS Christians don't have that big of a problem with Calvinist ideas. So what's your current state on Calvinism? So what's your current state on Calvinism?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

What's. What's my current state?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What's the current state?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah. Altering the email to what's your current state rather than what the words were on it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thanks for the email. I'm glad that the podcast was able to help out. Yes, I remember, you know, beating you and Riker in my son and I should just stop there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, just beating you and Riker and

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

we're in Age of Empires. Yes, I do remember that. You know, it's hard to nail down because there are Calvinist ideas that are pervade much of American Protestant Christianity. I mean, if you're not from a Wesleyan Armenian type of Protestant school, then then yeah, there's at least some parts of it. The parts of it that are the most common it found among Protestants in America today is the idea of the assurance of salvation. This is the perseverance of the saints. It's the last letter of tulip. We actually already trapped all these people on a bus while I talk about this.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Once before.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, now there's doors they can knock, leave.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

But

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

that idea, of course, is so appealing. People want to be able to feel like, you know, you know, like the

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

old denture commercial, fix it then, fix it up.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, they want to be able to say, I did it, I'm done. I. I don't have to worry about salvation anymore. And Calvin, of course, argued that because he believed you had no choice in the matter, you weren't saying the sinner's prayer. You weren't, you know, deciding to give your life to Jesus. You weren't. God chose before he ever created the world to save you. And that had nothing to do with yourself. And so the reason why you couldn't fall from grace and Calvinism is because God made the decision, not you. And God doesn't make mistakes. So it's very logical in modern American Christianity, many people believe, want to believe that they have free will and that they chose Jesus. They chose to have faith. They chose to accept his, his atonement. And that after they made the choice, then they can no longer fall from, from salvation. And, and that's something that John Calvin never would have taught. And so in, in one way, Calvinist ideology pervades much of Protestant Christianity today in America. Especially that idea of once saved, always saved. That comes from John Calvin. It doesn't come from Martin Luther. It doesn't come from, you know, obviously there's later theologians who also push that idea, but it comes from John Calvin. And there are still, it's roughly 10% of American Protestant denominations that are very heavily five point. They call them five point Calvinist because there's five points of tulip. Right? Total depravity of man, unconditional election Limited atonement, irresistible grace and perseverance of the saints. And, and while many Protestants in America basically just accept the p. Right.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

The perseverance of the saints.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That sounds great. And the total depravity of men and

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

the perseverance of the saints, once saved, always saved.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Once saved. That's what it means, perseverance the saints. Once you're a saint, you're always going to be a saint. But the person who decided that you're a saint is God. And he decided it before he ever created the world. And he saved you not because of any good thing you did or will do. He saved you because he could. He saved you because he was good, because no one should be saved. So it's roughly like 10 to 15% depending on how you count the numbers. But you do find certainly some, there are some churches that are five point Calvinists that really, they make that their theology. I saw a study recently that said about 20% of Southern Baptists follow a Calvinist ideology. So depending on where you're at, you're going to run into that more predestined salvation ideology more and more. And you know, it affects people in different ways. One of the great Calvinist theologians in America. Well, was, he passed away sadly. RC Sproul, he was an Arminian when he first went to divinity school. He went to divinity school believing that you chose to accept Jesus and that's how your salvation came. And as he went through divinity school, even though he was at an Arminian Divinity school school, he, he found that it was contradictory and that. Wait a minute, wait a minute. So Jesus wants to save everybody, but he, but he doesn't. How is there something that Jesus wants that he doesn't do? Like, why would we say that Jesus wants something that he, that he's bad at, you know, and he wrestles with it and struggles with it. And of course he went in thinking he, you know, I hate Calvinism. I don't believe in it. And when he came out the other side, if you ever have a chance to read any of his books, you know, he explains how he came to understand that Calvinism was the only logical way to understand Christianity. If you believe that God's all powerful, then you have to believe everything is the way God wants it to be. And if you say that it's not, then suddenly God stops being all powerful. And, but you know, he's a great example of that, how sometimes people's ideas will shift and it doesn't have to be a theologian. I was on my mission In Wisconsin. And this is your favorite story?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is, Yep.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We, we met a lady who was very kind to us. She, she informed us we were going to burn in hell. And, but she was nice, she was super nice to it. She went and got us water.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's gonna be hot where you're going.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, exactly. She didn't pack a lunchbox with drinks. Dry ice in it. I mean. No. Yeah, but she, you know, she was

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

very kind about it. She's like, oh, you boys are so sweet. It's just, it really is too bad that you're going to burn in hell. And you know, and, but so she was very nice about it. It was very nice. I imagine if we were in the south, it would have been bless your heart. Yeah, something like that. But, you know, we talked to her about, you know, religion and theology quite a bit and, and again, wonderful Christian lady, completely devoted her life to Jesus and, and I'm sure done more Christian acts of service than I've ever done.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But we, we met her again. It was about three months later, we met her again at the grocery store and, and, and she's like, oh, hi elders. Again, super sweet lady. Just a picture of, of, of, of the kind of person that, you know, Christianity makes good people. Right. And we started talking again about theology and she said, you know, I've actually come to realize even more recently as I've thought about it and I've prayed about it, that I was even wrong with what I said to you the last time I talked because I told you that you needed to accept Jesus. And you know, the more I've studied, the more I've just come to understand that it is nothing of myself. Nothing. Not, not even, not even saying the sinner's prayer. It is only God has decided to give the gift of grace. And if he didn't decide to give it to you, he didn't decide to save you. And so I watched her move towards the line of more five point Calvinism, just as she was trying to wrestle with some of the questions that we, you know, talked about. You know, she still didn't believe in the book. This isn't going to end, by the way, with her getting baptized. I did say I was on my mission in Wisconsin, so she's.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

None of those stories end with and then she got baptized. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And some of them end with and

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

then they pulled the gun out, but

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

they don't ever end with and then they got baptized.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So anyway, top five chewing tobaccos, which.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

What do you think?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, Skull's got to be one of them.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Skull is. Skull comes in at number three.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What about Redmond?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Redmond comes in at number four.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Number one.

[Narrator]

You.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You got to know this one. Growing up in Idaho, where you did. Well, I mean, it's a moist. It's a moist snuff.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Is that. There's a hint.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Copenhagen.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

There you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it is.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

In fact, I remember a song, Copenhagen. Quite a lot of flavor.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Copenhagen.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You can see it in his smile.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

You can see it in his smile. I bet you can. Yeah, you can see it as well. Copenhagen. I bet you can see it. And it goes. Driving pretty girls wild.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Anyway, a lot of chewing tobacco in Shelly island, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So now I haven't found a city named Skola, like an official city. Yeah, there is. So in trying to understand what Skol means, it could. Pot. The missionary could have meant the South Kansas and Oklahoma railroad.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, you know what? I remember that Elder Cooper, that was

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

one of his big deals. He loved trains, was. He was a big trade guy. Covers. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So that covers 458 miles.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have some, some, some people that have already received their mission calls.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Among them your son.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes. Dominican Republic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And, and we're going to give a shout out to. To Max Roberts, who's, you know, you. He's going to the Guam Micronesia mission.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, fantastic.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And, and, and he is going to

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

use this episode of the podcast to get so many dates

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

on his mission.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

No, no, no.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Lock your heart, Elder.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

You lock your heart. So, but we also, you know, we,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

we're happy to have them all with us, but. Yeah, so hopefully the podcast is helpful to missionaries like it was to Elder Cooper. That's the entire point.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Send us, send us your missionary email. We'll give you access to the Google Drive. We have 503, 30 episodes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have obviously this free podcast that as you're listening to it now, you're thinking it seems like it should somehow be cheaper than free. Should I be getting a residual when

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I listen to this rather than listening for free?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But we also do a premium content, one which was designed because people wanted to try to donate to the podcast to try to keep us on the air because I kept wanting to cancel the show and, and then I could, I could use financial reason.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Now I can't afford to do this. It goes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Cost so much money. But I didn't want to just have people donate and give nothing. And so we created the premium side and, and for missionaries who send in their missionary Emails. We give them access to a Google Drive that has them all on it, including all the. All the premium.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So there's also a Skull City, which is the Minnesota Vikings headquarters. My guess is that's probably not what it is. It's more likely the railroad, but it's.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know what. So Skull City is spelled Skol.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

For the Minnesota Vikings.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yep, that's right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

All right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, that's why they make the draft picks that they do. Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So onto the Lyceum.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yes. Well, we promised.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yes. In fact, we. It was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was a tease.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

We teased. In order to grow our listenership.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We're going to talk more about Joseph

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Smith's teachings of the Nauvoo Lyceum.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And we were flooded.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So just. Just a quick reset of what a Lyceum is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, I think actually they need to just know.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

They just need to know what it is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, Elysium is. It's obviously the Greek idea of this place where people are going to get together and share ideas in a public forum. We don't do this anymore. Today we just call each other Nazis on Facebook. That's our new way of sharing ideas is just attacking people on X, I think.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

So someone says, hey, I don't know that we have to increase taxes by 10%. And the next comment is, that's because you're not. That's right. Yeah. Literally, the next. Yeah, it's a. It's a pretty.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Pretty similar. But the idea before there was social media, the idea was to. It wasn't quite a debating society in the sense that people got together to attack one another's positions, but it was this idea that someone would, you know, I'm going to present what I've learned about farming, you know, you know, farming potatoes and. And that people might be able to give commentary or a way of. It was like early access adult education, kind of. And so in Nauvoo, Joseph establishes this among. Among other adult learning ways.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And they cover different topics. Well, often the topics. Because Nauvoo is made up of a lot of Latter Day Saints, often the topics do revolve around Latter Day Saint ideas. I mean, sometimes, you know, revolves around how to grow potatoes.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I mean, there are some that are

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

like, talked about buckwheat and there was no rebuttal. Buckwheat just dominated.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

There was no rebuttal. Yeah. No one, no one stood up and said, I'll say the buckwheat.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, it didn't happen.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

So Foghorn Leghorn was in Nauvoo Yeah, yeah. Foghorn Leghorn, one of my favorite. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Or, you know, can you tell much of a difference between him and Yosemite Sam?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Swearing.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

That's the biggest difference. It makes a lot of sense, given

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

the text that you send me.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

we're gonna go to another one of Joseph Smith's Nauvoo Lyceum meetings. This is in February of 1841. So all of these that we've covered, they've been. They've been early 1841. Joseph is really ramping up as. As Nauvoo is growing, more and more people are coming. The city is becoming much larger. Joseph is engaging in all kinds of public works, but he's also engaging in. In asking more questions of God and receiving more information. They are building the. The. The Nauvoo Temple, or at least it's. They are preparing to build the Nauvoo Temple. And. And they know that at that temple, God is going to reveal things that as. As the Revelation says, doctrine covenant, section 124, have not been revealed since the foundation of the world. And so it really is a time of an outpouring of. Of revelation. And so there are questions that come up in the Lyceum. So clearly, one of the things that happened in the Lyceum is someone asked what would be a very common question even among Latter Day Saints today. Not about potatoes or about what brand of chewing tobacco.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Which. I thought you were gonna go there.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I was. I was planning to, but. Yeah, we already spent so much time on it.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The question was about the Trinity. Now, if you're a Latter Day Saint, who has always been a Latter Day Saint, you grew up a Latter Day Saint, your parents were Latter Day Saints. You probably only know the concept of the Trinity vaguely because you have friends who aren't Latter Day Saints, and they find out that, you know, that you're one of those Mormons and that you don't believe in the Trinity. And you might have a conversation about it. But it's a very odd idea to you because. Well, this is what I've always been taught. It's what traditional Christians teach. And so if you're an early convert to the church, one of the doctrines that you have to kind of wrap your head around is this idea that. That Latter Day Saints, Joseph is teaching really from the time of the first vision that God the Father and Jesus Christ are separate individuals, that they have. They are separate and distinct beings. And so this is the question that's asked. We don't know exactly what the question is asked, the question isn't recorded, but Joseph said concerning the Godhead, that it was not as many had imagined, three heads and but one body.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He said that three were separate bodies. God the first and Jesus the Mediator the second, and the Holy Ghost. And these three agree in one. And this is the manner we should approach God in order to get his blessings. And he said that every man is stimulated by a certain motive. Motive precedes action. And if we want to know ourselves, this is the key to examine the motive, what is it? And the fact will be made manifest. So first, Joseph is teaching here that, that Latter Day Saints believe that when the New Testament says when, when the Lord says the Father and I are one, that it means one in purpose. You could even say one in power, but not one in person, in not being the same being, because they, they were separate and distinct individuals. And instead they would look to the great intercessory prayer of Jesus where Jesus prays, father of his apostles. He says, father, make them one as you and I are one. Well, clearly, clearly Jesus isn't praying that the apostles all form into, you know, Devastator, the most powerful transformer. They'll merge into one giant, you know, put together giant, giant person. That's clearly not what Jesus is praying. He's clearly saying, make them one in unity and heart and purpose, the same way you and I are one. And, you know, we've talked before on the podcast about how the doctrine of the Trinity develops. It develops because in the early church, when, when you have Jews who are the first Christians, you know, Jesus Jewish, right?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Peter Jewish. I mean, all the first Christians are,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

are Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Well, the most central aspect of Judaism at the time of Jesus is that it's monotheism. It's the most singular aspect of it, the idea that there's only one God. What made the Jews different from all of the other Mediterranean religions, from the Greeks and the Romans and the Egyptians, was that they didn't just believe that their God could beat up your God. Now the Romans, a lot of them believe that they're like, Mars can beat

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

up, don't worry, Mars can beat up Ra. We've got this. That's why we conquered Egypt, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But the Jews are saying that the other gods don't even actually exist. There are no other. There's only God. So the mindset, the culture of these early Christians, they're coming out of Judaism where there can only be one God. But of course, Christians are also affirming that Jesus is God. Well, how can God the Father be God and, and, and Jesus also be God? You know, I'm holding up two hands. No one can see on the podcast, but the people here can see it. If, if, if they're both God, then, then don't we have two Gods? And so eventually the philosophical development comes. Well, God is not anything that you can comprehend. And somehow the Father is God and the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God, but the Son is not the Father and the Holy Spirit is not the Son, and they are all God in an incomprehensible way, neither dividing the essence nor uniting the persons. And it's considered a mystery. Well, imagine you're a Latter Day Saint or a new convert, which almost everyone in the church in 1841 is a brand new convert. There's a like five.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

There's no multi generational Mormons in 1841,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

only my wife's family.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right. The Wilson family. The Wilsons, they got baptized before Joseph had the vision. That's how far, that's how long they've been. They've been members.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They're very proud of their pioneer heritage and the fact that I don't have any.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But, but no one is like,

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

well, I mean, if you had it, you just squander it like your acre in Quebec.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So nobody is a long time members of the church. You know, you don't have this multi generational understanding. And so of course one of the major questions that every early convert has is what do you mean that God and Jesus are separate? They can't be. The Nicene Creed says that they are not, not dividing the essence. Right. I.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So first of all, it is interesting to me that Muslims. So Christians don't view us as monotheists.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right. So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So a standard Christian will often attack and say Latter Day Saints aren't real Christians because we don't accept Trinitarian theology.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. The definition of it is such. And it is funny to me that Muslims also say, well, you're kind of also in violation.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What's really interesting is that if you ever hear a debate between a Muslim, you know, an imam and, and a, a Christian pastor, that is literally where the Muslim goes every single time, is that you aren't really a monotheist. We only worship Allah. And you are saying it's God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. And then the Christian spends the rest of the time. No, no, they're all one. It's not. And the Muslim just keeps hammering them over and over and over. Nope. It's just a While you're the one saying there's more than one God, you're a polytheist. I mean, it is disingenuous. Right.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

The Christian doesn't think that they're a polytheist. But.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But we don't think that either.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, exactly. Right. So it's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But it is interesting to me, though, I've always wondered this, where, for the Protestant during the Reformation, Catholics are the worst. Catholics made all these terrible decisions. They did all these terrible things. Everything they did is wrong. We're taking the Apocrypha out of our Bibles. But who.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

There's no purgatory.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There's no purgatory. But who Jesus is.

[Narrator]

They.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They nailed that. I've always thought that was interesting. At what point are they. Well, this. At this point, they were, they were mistaken.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Honestly. It's part of. Of the fact that the, the, The Reformation starts with. I mean, look, I get it. We got some Yan Hus fans in here and so big. Yeah, I, I know there's some WHO sites, and I get it that there's, you know, some Zwinglians and whatever.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I mean, but we were thinking of

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

doing a Standard of Truth tour in

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Prague, I think, really, Just to do the defenestration. Yeah, that's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We throw people out of windows.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Defenestration is when you are tossed from a window. The defenestration of Prague. Richard.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I've been.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I've been to the window.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Do they let you, like, jump out like.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

It's a bouncy house.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They talked about it. We did the castle tour and all this stuff. And. Yeah, and yeah, he's from there. There's a big statue for him, as big of a fan at the time. Statue Forum now. Which is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it's interesting.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

It is interesting. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, but Martin Luther is the starting point of the majority of the Protestant Reformation. And there are certain aspects of Christian theology that Martin Luther argues are biblical and therefore are, you know, the one thing the Catholics got right essentially.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so they accept the councils of the church up to the Chalcedonian Council.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Generally, which are talking about the nature of God. And, and so Martin Luther would say, well, because that is, you know, they got that right. The Catholic Church.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Evil. But they did get that right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They got the what. What the nature of God was. Right. I mean, and there are some places where you can clearly see this is just tradition. And, and I actually talked about it. Again, I apologize for everyone here on, on the bus. I talked about it. Infant baptism is a great example of this. Right. So infant baptism had been what had been going on in Christianity in the Catholic Church for, for almost a thousand years at this point. A thousand years. It's what you did when your baby was born. And so suddenly saying, well, actually, infant baptism isn't in the Bible because it's literally not in the Bible. It's nowhere in the Bible. The closest you get is, you know, Cornelius has his household baptized and you're like, yeah, and I'll bet one of that household was a six month old. That's not in the Bible. Right. So all you have. The best you have is maybe this guy's household might have included an infant. From the scholar's point of view, there's no evidence of infant baptism until later. There's no, you know, images depicting it, no stained glass. It's. It's all later. Why does it develop? It makes tons of sense why it develops. It develops because people believe that you had to be baptized in order to go to heaven. Well, infant mortality is north of 50%. So if I don't baptize my child as soon as that child is born, my child might not be able to go to heaven. So of course you're going to develop a doc. It's actually designed to be a super merciful idea, but it's actually a great example of how doctrines develop outside of the light of the restored gospel. When you no longer have a prophet or apostles on the earth that can receive revelation, that can ask God directly, you make decisions based upon what makes the most sense. And frankly, again, it does make the most sense to say, now wait a minute. If you're not baptized, it doesn't matter why you're not baptized, you burn in hell forever. We got to be throwing water on kids the moment they're born because we can't risk them not being able. It's. It's a design to be merciful.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So. But it's, it also takes place in the Book of Mormon.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, so it's the argument about it. Yeah, of course.

[Narrator]

Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, so, but it must have been happening. That likely. Similar arguments must have been made.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, someone's teaching it. Or, or at least it'd be funny

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

for him to get so worked up about something that's not happening.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That is really funny.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, you're in the gall of bitterness. No one's doing it. I'm telling you.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Someone does.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But also, he might be seeing our day as well. Well, yeah, I mean, maybe there's that. All right, we're going to get our crack research staff.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I, I never, I never actually thought about it that way.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But the point being that this doctrine developed because there was this idea that that baptism, if people weren't baptized, they'd go to hell and there was no other chance. Well, then it became what people did for, like I said, a third thousand years. You can see how people reacted when they tried to eliminate it. That's exactly where Anabaptists come from. Anabaptists are, you know, we actually even saw some on our tour already where the Amish and the Mennonites come from. These are radical Protestants. These are radical Protestants who, who say

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

they see Martin Luther and they, they're

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

like, you know, how high? You know, they the like, oh, Martin Luther, that lightweight. No, because they saw Martin Luther was still accepting doctrines that were not in the Bible. And among them, the baptism of babies. They believe that you had to accept Jesus as an adult. You had to have adult baptism because that's all of the baptisms you read about in the Bible. They are all adult baptism. And they are heavily persecuted, they are attacked, they are slaughtered in Europe. Is the response when people said, hey, wait a minute, your baptism needs to be when you're an adult. Because it was such a cultural belief in infant baptism. So the whole reason I bring that up is the culture was very much a culture of that. Anyone who denies the Trinity is not a real Christian. Even to the point that for Martin Luther, he is going to say, yes, that's scriptural. I'm going to espouse it. Now they are helped along a little bit because the Bible, you know, has the fake insertion in it at that point, the later insertion, you know, in

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

John, that, oh, there's three that bear witness in heaven. And those three agree together, which all

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

scholars now believe to be a later insertion into the Bible to try to prove the Trinity right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Hundreds of years later.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thousand years.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

A thousand years later.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's not in any early manuscripts at all. Yeah, but, but there are still disputes.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It is the best scripture on the Trinity.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

It is really effective.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There's actually a lot of Bibles now that just either asterisk it or some Bibles don't include it anymore because it's so well known that it's added later document. But back to our conversation at hand over the Trinity.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

The

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

idea that it has to only be one person, one being one entity. Joseph's gonna, he's going to speak about this again In a, in 1843, a couple years later, where he's a little bit more, you know, he's being a little bit more sarcastic about it again because he's constantly being attacked because, well, you guys don't believe in the Trinity, you don't believe in the Trinity, you don't believe in the Trinity. And, and, and Joseph is, is going to say that, that people who are believing that they have to all be, you know, in one same being. That, that, that, that's a great gigantic, you know, God that everyone's stuffed inside of that one God, as he said. So the second part of this, that's the end of his teaching at the Lyceum. But I thought I wanted to focus a little bit on that last part because I do think that's something that's kind of a good takeaway for everybody, that if you want to know

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

why

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

you do things, it's important to examine your motives. Right, let's read that again. That every man is stimulated by a certain motive. Motive precedes action. And if we want to know ourselves, that is the key to examine the motive. What is it? And the fact will be made manifest. So Joseph, this is not the only time that he's going to urge people to kind of look within yourself. What's the real reason why you're doing what you're doing? Are you doing it because you're trying to help people? Are you doing it because you're trying to help yourself? Are you doing it because you, you want people to look and see how wonderful and great you are? Are you doing it with an eye single to the glory of God? So it's, it's a nice helpful thing, I think, to, to examine. Let's move on to the next meeting. Richard, we'll never get through the Lyceum, which is what you want most. Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I do have the, the Moroni. Eight.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Five.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

For if I have learn the truth. There have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of little children.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And, and, and, and again, why would there be. Because they're teaching the baptism is essential for salvation.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. And so let's get them dunked.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it makes, it makes sense. It makes sense outside of other revelation that you'd want to save these little children. Right. So the next meeting is the 23rd of February, 1841.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

We don't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Again, these are all just notes that are taken and so some of them are not very, you know, verbose. I shared this quote with someone in our group the other day. So I thought, oh, this will be a fun one to share. So we know that the first one was on the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Henry Sherwood's the one who gives that. But we don't know what he said, so he just talked about it. Then Vincent Knight gives a. A speech on education.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Again, we have no notes on what he said.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Get to the good stuff. That's what McIntyre is saying. Then an unknown speaker just only identified as Davis spoke on charity. And then George Miller spoke on manners.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

So you can see it's very eclectic. Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You know, like. And I'm tired of people not, you know, brushing the tobacco spit out of their beer.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

What do you say on what?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He say anything?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No manners.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He just talked about manners. Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He spoke on manners. Maybe like how to have better manners.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay. Yeah. People wrote into him with. With the questions about how. What to do with a place setting at a wedding. It was then he responded very Dear Abby kind of stuff. Yeah. Dear George Miller. Then I don't know how it was related to manners. Maybe it was. Maybe I don't know what it was related to.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But then it records Joseph speaking. Joseph said that he never wanted to hear a man snore louder than he could shout in battle.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I agree that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So I actually spent some time trying

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

to dig that up. Is that like that, like a common phrase?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Is that snore louder than you cry in battle?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, snore louder than he could shout in battle. Good luck. I see you're turning to the chat GPT. Is that what you're doing?

[Narrator]

No, Chad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, no, no, Claude.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Oh, clot. Sorry. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's offensive. So that's interesting. And as I get. As I get fatter with age. It's snowing. Snowing. I'm snowing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, snowing.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm snowing louder and louder.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I've been snowing this entire trip because I'm tired.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Really?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, just snow.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

When I'm really tired, I'll snow. And then. And then as I get fatter, it's pressing down upon my. My lungs.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And so

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

he goes on to kind of give us an explanation. He did not want any man to say, oh, Joseph, how I love you so. And so. And when in time of danger come to forsake him.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And so I think the point is, I mean, it sounds like it's got to be an old, you know, militia, you know, drilling saying, but, you know, I can't really find it in a common place. So maybe it's just from Joseph around the farm.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

But to snore louder than he could shout in battle. Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

There's a lot of people who are really, really loud about how loyal they are to the church right up until the prophet teaches something that they don't want to believe. Right? They are, they are all in on everything. I actually witnessed this once. It was incredibly troubling to me because there was someone that I'd always like, really respected who was a very, just devout Latter Day Saint. And you know, he was the guy that if I were thinking of somebody, this would be the last person that would ever question the, the brethren. He is so dedicated to the church. Well, then the church, you know, put out a teaching and it was actually one of the things in the gospel topics essays, and it was not what he wanted to believe. And I'm sitting there talking to this guy and he, he says, well, I, I know obviously the, the brethren have made a mistake with this. This is wrong. They've made a mistake. And I, I sat there thinking, man, legitimately, at any other point of our lives, were I to say to you, hey, I think the prophet got this wrong, you would have lost your mind on me. And here you are saying it now. Look, he's still a great guy. I'm not saying he's not a good guy. What I'm saying is it's really easy to say that you're all in the gospel, in the church when things are going smoothly. It's super easy to follow the prophet when the prophet is saying something that you already believe. But the real test of discipleship is not do I follow the prophet when he's saying everything that I already believe. The real test of discipleship, just like it was with Jesus's disciples, right? This is an hard saying, and who can know it? And after that day, many of his disciples went away and followed no more after him. Even Jesus taught things that people didn't want to believe, and they were so hard to believe that they, that they said, that's it, I'm out. I've seen you perform miracles. I've, I've heard all of your great teachings. I've seen all the good things that there are. But if you're saying this, that's too far and I'm out. It's incumbent upon believers to give their life to God in the sense that we don't just follow God when it suits us and when it agrees with what we already want to believe politically or socially, when it works out with our friend group, when it works out with our job, when it works out with what we already wanted to believe about this or that or the other thing, the Real true test of discipleship is do you follow when it's what you don't already believe, that that's when you are shouting in battle rather than snoring, right? It's easy to. Look, everybody has their hobby horse doctrines in the church, right? You know, you all know the guy you know in your ward who's pretty certain that whether or not you have an emergency preparedness kit is just below the atonement and in essential doctrines of the gospel. You all know that person. You all know that person. And they, they got the call to

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

be the emergency preparedness supervisor. And this was the greatest thing that

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

ever happened in their life.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And they're, they're calling people to do mock earthquake drills.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're knocking on do I kid? But I've literally had this person, they

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

came around knocking on doors, asked to

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

see my 24 hour kid, which I did not have. He was more disappointed than I did.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

He looked at me like he just realized that I didn't love my family. That's what he looked at me like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, oh, you know what you're supposed to have and you are supposed to have. But I'm not saying that you don't. But we all have doctrines that appeal to our senses. It's what we really love. It's what we like. And what we tend to do is we lean into that because it agrees with what we already believe so much. And that's fine and good. I'm not saying that it's wrong, but the real test of discipleship is are we able to do it when it's the doctrines that don't naturally fit what we say, think or believe. And, and I think that's the point of what Joseph is trying to make there. Richard, do you have something to add there?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I found a poem about how loud my dad snores. That was written in 1984. That's the closest thing that I.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

You think that a poem written in 1984, Jack. Did George Orwell write it?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Jack Prolutsky.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay, so which was George Orwell's suited? Yeah, that was his pen name. Jack Prolutsky. Yeah. He just said, I'm gonna go full Polish. That's correct.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what he decided to do. And it's, it's a lovely, it's a lovely poem. I don't think it's exactly what you're looking for.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Louder than the earthquake rumbles, Louder than the tidal waves, Louder than the org grumbles as he stumbles through his cave. Louder than the stampede cattle, Louder Than the cannon roars louder than the giants rattle. That's how loud my father snores. I feel like that's what Joseph Smith was referencing.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I, I kind of feel like my kids wrote this.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, don't shake your head, Jack Prolotzky. It was, it was a, it was a. It was like a. He was the lesser known of the Shel Silverstein.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I see.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We probably, you know, people don't realize how much culture we bring.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

It's not just brands of tobacco chewing Copenhagen.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's also Jack Perlutzky poetry.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Little known poetry. That's what people tune in for.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, well the next meeting that I want to cover of the Lyceum is sometime around March 2nd. We. We're not entirely sure, but the dating of the other things around it, we think that it's sometime around there of 1841. One of the people spoke on true friendship and said the true friendship was such as a man laying down his life for his friend. Now that's. You don't have to look very hard to find that.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's. The Lord greater loveth no man than this. That a man layeth down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, he says to them.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

But

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Joseph said, so Joseph responds to this that there was a difference between the vengeance that belongeth to the Lord and a man defending himself or his friend. This is Joseph arguing that while vengeance belongs to the Lord, you did have the right to defend yourself. If someone attacks you or your family or your friends, you have the right to defend yourself. Now you might think, well yeah, that's pretty standard. Aren't we in America? Well, remember there's radical Protestant Christian groups that are absolute pacifists who believe that any violence of any kind for any reason is, is wrong. That if someone comes to attack you, you just let them kill you. Because rather than, rather than sin, by, by, by enacting violence in defense, you just. I mean we even have an example of that in the Book of Mormon. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

The anti leaf. Anti Levi.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The anti leaf. Anti leaf. I goes. It's like it's getting rid of.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Rid of. Getting rid of what has happened. I don't know.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's just.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

We had Mexican food getting rid of weeds. Right. It's a. We find a weed killer. It's a weed killer company. Just like super irrigation could be a lawn care company.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So, yeah. So they buried. Their situation was different. Right. Because their, their children go to defense because they didn't make the oath.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They did make an Oath. Right, right. And they were willing to just be slaughtered in. In one of the great massacres of the Book of Mormon.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But. But their situation seemed to be quite different, though, because they had been a bloodthirsty people. And in a covenant to God to say that we have really. I mean, they really go to the next level.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think some of these radical peace sex would say the same thing. I was a horrific sinner. I participated in the wars of these kings. I won't anymore for any reason, even if you kill me.

[Narrator]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Did you ever see Sergeant York when you were a kid?

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's a classic.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Are we gonna also share things about that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

How many have seen Sergeant York? Okay. All right. Got a couple.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It wasn't the same people that have seen your sitcom. That didn't exist.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Small wonder. I do a pretty decent Sergeant York's dad. It's a pretty rare.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, the people cry out.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, yeah. It's pretty limited.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, it is. Like most of our skills, very limited. Maybe you could do a Charlie. Could you do a Charlie Brown's dad while you're at it? I nailed it, by the way.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

If you go home and watch Sergeant York when they call on the phone when he's about to meet the President,

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I'm telling you, I'm crushing that impression. I. I feel like it's lost on the youth. A movie about World War I. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That came out, like, in the 30s.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

It was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It was a long time ago.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah. Why don't you look at that?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I'm gonna.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

I'm gonna look it up.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We got on Sergeant. Sergeant York.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So the March 9 Lyceum meeting, we have. We have time probably to cover one more. And I think that people are still crying out, aren't these, like, interesting things,

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

the Joes of time?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, sure.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We're killing time. How much time we got? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's worth seven more minutes.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

All the people in here are just killing time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're like, boy, why did I not

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

get on the bus when I had a chance? This is ridiculous.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

1941. 1941.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah. There you go.

[Narrator]

There you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so in. In this one, Joseph is actually going to correct some of the teaching that's done. And.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

And you can.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You can see here, Joseph trying to help things along. Now, the problem here is Father Cole, who's just, you know, that it means he's an older guy. They call him Father Cole. Said that he taught on the gospel, said that some thought that he differed from President Smith concerning the Time of the giving of the Holy Ghost as teaching that all men receive the Holy Ghost before baptism. Joseph said, men do not take notice of things as they read them, or they might know things as they read them. And he quotes second Peter, repent and be. Be baptized. Peter second. Actually, I think that's just transposed. I think he's. I think he's quoting Acts, chapter two. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It was not his father. It was Pastor Rosier Pyle Elvin. It's. That's pretty. It's pretty good.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

So.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So it wasn't his dad.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, his dad's dead in this show. I haven't watched it for a while. It was the. It was the pastor that helps converts him. He's a drunk. He comes to Christianity and then, you know, they're. They're sending off people to war and he tries to become a conscientious objector and. Yeah, and then, you know, piestra.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

So I'm playing a clip. Yeah, I'm gonna plug it up. Nobody's gonna want to listen to that. Repent, be baptized, etc.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Etc. That's what it says here is. Etc. Etc. Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Now, said he taking up his cap and presenting it to President William wa in giving you this gift, is not it giving myself? However, there is a priesthood with the Holy Ghost and key. The Holy Ghost overshadows you and witnesses unto you of the authority of the gifts and the gifts of the Holy Ghost. He said it was the province of the Father to preside as the chief or president, Jesus as the mediator. Again. So back to the same language that he was using a. A few weeks earlier. Jesus as the mediator and the Holy Ghost as the testator or. Or witness. The Son had a tabernacle and so had the Father. But the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit without tabernacle. The great God has a name by which he shall be called, which is Amon also. So this is interesting because this is in 1841. We often attribute Joseph teaching that. That the Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man to 1843 because that's where it is in the Doctrine and Covenants coming from William Clayton's journal. But in fact, this is something Joseph's teaching earlier, and you can actually see it here in the Lyceum. He's teaching the men that are there. No, the Father has a body as well. Jesus has a body. The Father has a body. And this is, of course, radical doctrine. It is an odd conversation to have when you're talking with a Trinitarian Christian, because they will say, well, it's blasphemy for you to say that God has a body. But then you'll say, well, isn't Jesus God? And they'll say, yes. And you'll say, doesn't Jesus have a body? And they'll say, yes, but the Father doesn't have a body. But, but isn't Jesus God? Right. So it, you very quickly start doing some gymnastics because Latter Day Saints believe that, that, that God has, has a body and, and Jesus does as well, even though the, the Holy Spirit doesn't. Now what Joseph uses to prove this as part of it, he says, like Adam, for God made Adam just in his own image. Now this is a key for you how to ask and obtain. And so another guy in the Lyceum, because Joseph brought up Adam as an example, another guy says, wait a minute, wait a minute, Adam. So you know, like how Adam ate the forbidden fruit, you know, kind of thing. Because the Christian world hates Adam and Eve because they destroyed the world. Joseph said a person always ought to take his subject along. For instance, Jesus in all of his doctrines and parables, set it forth like a tree or a mustard stock, commencing at the foundation and the root and thence up to the first branch and, and out along and back to the body of the tree or subject and thence to the next branch, and so on. Now as to Adam, the Lord said, in the day thou shalt eat thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now the day the Lord has reference to is spoken of by Peter. A thousand of our years is with the Lord as one day. And at the time the Lord said this, this is to Adam. There was no mode of counting time by man as man now counts time. So Joseph's saying, well, you know, the Gregorian and Julian calendars come a little after Adam, they're a little later. But that's an example of Joseph explaining how we learn it's a little bit at a time. Part of the problem when you're trying to share the gospel with some of your friends is they've all heard things. And the things that they've all heard are almost entirely speculative, high end, deep doctrine, and almost invariably wrong. And, and it becomes difficult to have a conversation in that because you're like, you know, we believe the Book of

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Mormon's the word of God, welcome, God's

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

got his own planet.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Then are you gonna have.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, you're like, well, that's. Hey, I just want to, I want you to just read the Book of Mormon and find out, you know, well, you know, how come you guys are practicing polygamy? How many wives you got? Like, we don't practice that anymore. I mean, it's difficult because, you know, I find this all the time on. Even on the podcast, in order to answer a question, well, say the Gadian robbers or who's dead and in hell.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You can't do it right away.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Now you have to do 10 parts.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Something like 10 parts.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You have to build up to where it's at. Otherwise the answer is very shallow. And that's one of the things that I think Joseph's trying to get at here. You can't just understand all there is to know about the Fall just like this. There's so much involved in it that the way that Jesus taught was by, you know, saying, well, here's a little bit here and here's a little bit there, and here's a little bit there. And, you know, Brigham Young's really going to give voice to this, that the way God has to teach all people is to teach them line upon line and precept upon precept. You can't know everything all at once. Nobody can know everything all at once unless you are God. And so we need to not stumble over the fact that we don't know everything. Of course you don't know everything. Nobody knows everything. Except for that one guy in your elder score.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Right? Right. I mean, he knows everything.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

we sometimes we feel afraid to share the gospel because there are these questions that people ask, and the church has provided a lot of resources to help answer those questions. But it's always going to come back to, is the Book of Mormon the word of God? When someone says, well, what about this? Or what about this? Or what about that? The easiest answer is, well, if you think Joseph Smith's a false prophet because he eventually taught about plural marriage, even though plural marriage is literally everywhere in the Bible. So so clearly prophets can teach it and not be false prophets. You don't have to say that. Then, then, then you'll find that out by reading the Book of Mormon. Because if he's a false prophet, then you won't feel the Holy Spirit testifying to you that it's another testament of Jesus Christ. The Book of Mormon was, is, and will always remain the greatest witness of whether or not Joseph Smith was an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ, because you can't explain away where it came from. And I can tell you there are lots of people who have tried horribly by the way they Think that they've proven where the Book of Mormon originates by either inventing a narrative that doesn't exist without any sources, by inventing another source that doesn't exist without any source, by inventing the fact that Joseph was just suddenly a secret, you know, mad scientist genius, and then just not for the rest of his life. They will find, oh, look, here's, here's a phrase from here that's similar to a phrase in another book that was published 10 years earlier. Okay, one phrase. Yeah. What about the other 600 pages? They actually don't have an explanation of

[Narrator]

where it came from.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

From.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You have all kinds of, well, what about this? And what about this? But there's a reason why actual historians don't attempt to explain where the Book of Mormon came from because they don't have an answer. Right. You ever find someone who's trying to give you an alternative origin of the Book of Mormon? Almost guaranteed they're not a PhD in history. Almost guaranteed they are someone else who said, well, I mean, have you looked at the late war? I mean, they're, they're, they're giving you an argument, but it's not actually an academic argument. Because if there was an academic way to prove where the Book of Mormon came from, then there would be academic books written about it. The fastest way for you to get a Pulitzer Prize would be to write a book proving where the real origin of the Book of Mormon came from. So why doesn't a Yale, Harvard, maybe even Brown University professor do it? It's not because they love Mormonism. It's because they can't. Because if they could, if you could prove where the Book of Mormon actually came from, you would write your own ticket. It'd be the best selling work of history that there is. It would be everywhere. And the reason why it's not written because it can't be written, because historians have to rely on things like facts and sources and not just, you know, your uncle's YouTube channel. So anyway, I think we've gone on a little too long.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

People are passing out in their seats. Yeah. Yeah. So you want to add anything before we close up shop?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, I think it's, I think it's an excellent point. I think that it's, it is one of those things you, you often. And part of the reason why you point to academics as kind of this benchmark is, is that there is a standard by which they can't just make things up because it's peer reviewed. And they would, they would be. It's they'd be mocked for doing poor research while a person who's making an accus.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

So.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So when they don't make the claim, it's because they can't support it with evidence. Well, a person on YouTube or whatever, they can say whatever they want. And so the reason that you do that is not just certainly your ivory tower.

[Additional Guest or Co-host]

Yeah, well, la dee dah. If only everyone had a PhD then they'd be able to know things.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But that's the point that you're making, right? Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The point I'm making is that the way that you discover the truth about God has never been by going and getting a PhD, right? The way you knew that Jesus was the Christ is not because you went and were so incredibly educated. You can only know it through the Holy Spirit. I am stunned, honestly stunned at the number of anti Mormons, people who attack the church who have never actually read the Book of Mormon. And it's painfully obvious the moment you start having a conversation with them that they've never actually read it. It's weird to devote your life to attacking something and not even invest the amount of time it takes to know what it is that you're talking about. Now when you, when you're just looking for cheap, easy wins and whatever you find on a, you know, an anti Mormon subreddit, fine. But that's, it's not scholarship. That's just, you know, operating on emotion. And so, you know, that's what I would say to everybody who's wondering. I mean, everyone's going to have doubts in their life. Everyone's going to wonder. I believe that if you read the Book of Mormon, the Holy Spirit will tell you that it really is another testament of Jesus Christ. And that's how you'll know that Joseph Smith really was a prophet and that God really restored his church through him. The Book of Mormon is either true or it is not. There's not a way to make it to where it's like, oh, it's kind of true. I mean, Joseph was a pretty good guy, even though he forged this and made a bunch of fake tin plates and tried to pass them off as though they were. It's either true or it's not. And the plates in the Book of Mormon put Joseph Smith in that category that frankly, all other religious reformers aren't in. So I urge everybody, right, especially if you feel yourself drifting away from God, you can ask that question, have I been actually studying my scriptures the same way? And I think you'll find a lot of the time the answer is no. So thank you so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.