S6E8 The Book of Enoch Part 2 (Giants in the Land)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Standard of Truth – S6E8 "The Book of Enoch Part 2 (Giants in the Land)"

Date: February 19, 2026
Hosts: Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc

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Overview

This episode continues the discussion on the Book of Enoch, its apocryphal narratives, and its historical and doctrinal significance for Latter-Day Saints. The central theme explores how the Book of Enoch seeks to explain the origins of evil, the concept of fallen angels, and the "giants in the land" narrative referenced in both ancient Jewish and early Christian sources. Through close reading, historical context, and characteristic humor, the hosts investigate how these ancient traditions intersect with modern Latter-Day Saint thought and scripture.

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Sections & Key Discussion Points

1. Light Banter and Listener Mailbag (00:37–18:05)

• Hosts open with friendly banter about locations, sports predictions, and podcasting routines, showcasing their easy camaraderie and humor.
• Two listener emails are read:
  • Sister McNew (11:38): Praises the show, mentions Russian-speaking missionaries in Montana, and enjoys the premium content.
  • Jeff from St. Augustine, FL (14:11): Shares growing skepticism due to the podcast, humorously questions the authenticity of everything (including podcasts themselves), and asks about the portrayal of Joseph as an angel in "The Chosen."
• The hosts stress their faith-centered, sourced approach and joke about premium content and loyalty.

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2. Clarifying Doctrines: Angels and "The Chosen" (18:52–28:41)

Key question: Has mainstream Christian doctrine changed to adopt Latter-Day Saint views on angels due to popular media (e.g., "The Chosen")?

• Dr. Dirkmaat addresses the theology:
  • Traditional Christian theology treats angels as separate creations, not human spirits or resurrected humans.
  • The Book of Enoch is referenced as an influential apocryphal text for early Christians and Jews.
  • "The Chosen" sparked controversy by depicting Joseph (Jesus's father) as the angel comforting Jesus—Dallas Jenkins (creator) clarified this was not a doctrinal claim but an artistic choice. Evangelical backlash was strong, emphasizing doctrinal differences.
  • LDS theology (via Joseph Smith) is unique in teaching some angels are resurrected beings, but even within LDS tradition there's speculation, not concrete doctrine, about angelic identities (such as who visited Jesus in Gethsemane).

Notable Quote:

"I am not saying that Joseph is an angel... we just did it because we thought it would be beautiful artistically and spiritually." — Dallas Jenkins, as paraphrased by Dr. Dirkmaat (24:01)

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3. Setting Up the Book of Enoch Discussion (28:46–32:40)

• Recap for new listeners: The Book of Enoch is an ancient Jewish text circulating at the time of Jesus, quoted authoritatively in the New Testament (Jude 1:14).
• The Book of Enoch influenced both Jewish and early Christian thinking about angels, evil, and the end times.
• The hosts highlight that while the Book of Enoch was not considered canonical, it provided vivid explanations for scriptural ambiguities.

Notable Quote:

"Here you have the New Testament... quoting this Book of Enoch as if it were scriptural or at the very least, authoritative enough that it's part of the argument about what the second coming is going to be like." — Dr. Dirkmaat (31:10)

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4. Alternate Origin of Evil: Enoch’s Story of the Fallen Angels (32:40–46:25)

• Theological background: Unlike polytheists, Jews/Christians argue there's one all-powerful, all-good God—raising the question: Why is the world so wicked?
• Book of Enoch’s answer:
  • Angels ("sons of God") lust after mortal women, descend to earth, take wives, and teach forbidden knowledge (charms, metallurgy, vanities).
  • Their offspring are “giants” (with comic discussion about their size—3,000 ells ≈ 4,500 feet, or two Burj Khalifas!).
  • The giants are violent, cannibalistic, and their existence leads to chaos and widespread evil on earth.
• Genesis 6 Parallel: The often-debated "sons of God" and "daughters of men" passage is used by Enoch as the narrative's foundation.
• Hosts caution:
  • Many doctrines in Enoch are not compatible with LDS or mainstream Christian beliefs (e.g., the mechanics and consequences of fallen angels).

Notable Moment (Humor):

"If you had somebody that was 3,000 ells... you would go undefeated in church ball." — Dr. Leduc (45:11)

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5. Influence on Early Christian Fathers (52:52–61:00)

• Clement of Alexandria & Justin Martyr:
  • Both recount stories closely paralleling Enoch—angels fall, take wives, teach forbidden things, and become sources of evil/demons.
  • These ideas shaped certain early Christian interpretations of the Genesis 6 passage.
• Key Distinction:
  • These elaborations are extra-biblical and eventually fall out of favor doctrinally as Christianity matures and canonizes scripture.

Notable Quotes:

"The angels transgressed this appointment, and they were captivated by love of women and begat children, who are those that are called demons." — Justin Martyr, as quoted by Dr. Dirkmaat (60:10)

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6. Cliffhanger & Foreshadowing — What About Joseph Smith? (63:00–70:16)

• Dr. Dirkmaat teases further discussion of later early Christian writers (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Ambrose, etc.) for the next episode.
• The conversation pivots to the significance of the Book of Enoch in the context of Joseph Smith's revelations—especially the unique LDS interpretation found in the Book of Moses.
• Announcements: The monthly podcast newsletter is now active, and additional spots are available for the Missouri Nauvoo tour.

Notable Closing Tease:

"We will have multiple early Christian fathers. We will talk more about the apocryphal Book of Enoch and how it relates to Joseph Smith’s Book of Moses and the other teachings of Joseph Smith on Enoch in our next episode." — Dr. Dirkmaat (70:16)

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Memorable Quotes

• "If you start putting air quotes around nouns, that's a real problem." — Dr. Dirkmaat (17:32, Mailbag segment)
• "You can't swing a dead cat in Missoula without hitting several babushkas." — Dr. Leduc (07:26, on Russian speakers in Montana)
• "They [the fallen angels] became pregnant. And they bear giants whose height was 3,000 ells..." — Dr. Dirkmaat (44:08, reading Enoch)
• "Never get involved in a land war in Asia, and never transform yourself into fallen man..." — Dr. Dirkmaat (59:12, with a Princess Bride reference)
• "Clement of Alexandria has got to be frustrated that he's Clement of Alexandria. The other one's just Clement." — Dr. Leduc (69:04)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:37 – Banter, sports, and Russian-speaking missionaries
• 11:38 – Sister McNew’s mail: Russian missionaries and podcast praise
• 14:11 – Jeff’s mail: skepticism and angels in "The Chosen"
• 18:52 – Theological clarifications about angels in Christianity/LDS
• 24:01 – Dallas Jenkins' statement on Joseph as an angel in "The Chosen"
• 28:46 – Recap & setup: Book of Enoch, Jude, and authority
• 32:40 – Origins of evil: Enoch’s alternative narrative about angels, giants
• 45:24 – Discussion of giants’ size, humor break
• 46:25 – Enoch’s narrative vis-à-vis Genesis 6
• 52:52 – Early Christian fathers’ adoption of Enoch’s ideas
• 59:12 – "Classic blunders" and the fate of the fallen angels
• 63:00 – Cliffhanger: What does Irenaeus say? Announcements
• 68:26 – Teaser: Joseph Smith’s revelations and Enoch for next episode

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Tone and Style

The hosts blend rigorous scholarship with dry wit and playful banter. They approach complex theological issues faithfully while gently skewering both ancient and modern misconceptions. Their back-and-forth keeps even dense doctrinal discussions light and entertaining.

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Conclusion

This episode demystifies the Book of Enoch’s narratives and explains their impact on Jewish, Christian, and Latter-Day Saint thought—highlighting both the intrigue and the doctrinal pitfalls of engaging with ancient apocrypha. The hosts promise deeper dives into early Christian sources and, most importantly, an exploration of Joseph Smith's teachings on Enoch and how LDS scripture reframes these ideas.

Next episode: Deeper exploration of early Christian writers' views, and how Joseph Smith’s revelations draw from and transcend these ancient traditions.

Transcript

[Narrator]

Welcome to the Standard of Truth podcast. In this podcast, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and Dr. Richard Leduc explore the early history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and the life and teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. They examine the original historical sources and provide context for events of the past. They approach the history of the church with faith expertise and humor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Foreign.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hi, welcome to another episode of the Standard of Truth podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat and I am joined by my friend and fellow compatriot in the podcasting world, Dr.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Richard Leduc, Suzuki Sidekick. Hellos Garrett to you. We're so, so glad to be here. Here I am in the heart of Yuma, Arizona on remote. Very excited to be back. Thank you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean Yuma, Arizona just. Did you do some sightseeing?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I did, I did, I did. There used to be a barbecue place that isn't there anymore from when I was there 10 years ago. And so I went by and just had a nice remembrance of, of a nice brisket and then sat there and

you poured out, you poured out your sprite in memory of a brisket you once had. I did.

I poured one out for that. It was a, it was a delicious brisket. It was some Tex Mex associated with it. I don't know that there's a better combination for anything other than maybe Tex Mexico. The barbecue and the Mexican food together. Beautiful. It's a beautiful thing, Gary.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Now while you are on remote right now, I believe that by the time this drops you're going to be even more remote.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I will be just outside of, let's see, this is Thursday. I will be in Kyoto, Japan, where the search for Pehorin's mother in law's sublet apartment continues.

It begins, it begins in Japan and then goes on from there.

Started in Yuma. And I will not rest until I find.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

You're just trying to find a Book

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

of Mormon model that works for you and you and you're like, you know,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Hokkaido has a narrow neck of land and that's, that's where you've gone now.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's. Have we, have we thought perhaps that Japan was the land of bountiful? Have we ever thought about that? So I'm exploring it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We know that Helam's building ships and you know, where do they end up? So we, we are doing a little bit of pre recording. So that makes, it makes our timeliness in our conversations about sports even worse than they would normally be because well, as we're recording this, BYU just barely beat Baylor.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, barely.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But by the time you listen to this, I'm sure they will have lost several more games.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, they barely beat Baylor is great alliteration. I think that. So what we used to do is we used to get together in person for like a long weekend and record like eight episodes in a week. And so that was where lots of fun was had, where we would predict games that happened two months ago. And I would still be wrong if

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

nothing could actually look at the result

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

and be like, nope. You know, just this week we should be like, so what do you think the over under is on turnovers for the Super Bowl? And then have you guess it, but still not be right.

Oh, never. It's the one thing that we are. If nothing else, it's consistently wrong on all picks of sports, which actually, I feel like. I feel like I'm proving President Hinckley's 2005 conference address as prophetic. If I would have put money on any of the things, I would be even more homeless than I currently am.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well, that's what you're speaking of, prophetic

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

again.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

By the time someone hears this, it'll

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

be a little bit more removed.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But President Oaks just came and spoke at byu and. Did you have a chance to listen to that, Richard?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, but I was making picks on Kalshee to things that he would say

made a cool thousand dollars. Well, you have. You have, Ed. And Richard has reached a new low. But, you know, he gave a great

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

address, you know, encouraging students to. That they needed to take care of their testimony.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

he specifically made a mention that people needed to not be going to negative sources about things like church history. And he made a reference to podcasts.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

of course, no sooner did he say that that multiple antagonistic podcast started celebrating on the Internet that they had become so important in their assaults on the church that. That President Oaks mentioned them, albeit in

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

a negative light, saying, stay away from them.

Congratulations. The prophet of the Lord said that you are, you know, a tool of the devil. Congratulations. You. You're. You've done it.

Yeah, it's what I always wanted to achieve. And I finally, you know, I started at the bottom. Now I'm here.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Which is probably not exactly what they were thinking, but. Well, what do we have in the Phoebe Draper Palmer Brown mailbag before we jump right back in to what everyone wants to know, and that is the Book of Enoch Question mark? That's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, I think you did leave us on a bit of a cliffhanger. I think that there is some. Some excitement about it. There's these last couple of episodes that we've done have been a lot of fun. So I'm excited to get into this now. I'm going to poorly read a couple of emails here. The first email comes to us from a Sister McNew. She's a service missionary that emailed us to say a couple of missionaries came by last week that were actually assigned to Russian speaking, if I remember right. And their name tags did bear that out. One was indeed from that part of the world, and the other, I believe, was from Montana. Obviously Russian speaking, part of buildings, the

number of Russian speakers.

I mean, with Russians, you stop at

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

a truck stop in Butte and good luck. You'll go in and you'll be like,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

hey, do you guys have any.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Any fresh sandwiches? And what you get back sounds like the. Before they translate, you know, Vladimir Putin, I mean, it's just all. It's all Russian all the time in Montana.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You can't. You can't swing a dead cat in Missoula without hitting several babushkas.

Yeah, it's all. It's all Russian all the time.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Although I'll tell you what, you know, and. And maybe because. Do you remember the movie Hunt for Red October?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, I love that movie.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And the one first officer who's trying to defect, remember what his. His dream was? No.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh, you love the movie, but you don't remember. Oh, he.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It's been a minute. Was it to go to Bucky's?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He and Marco Ramius, the Russian captain

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

who was absconding with the ship with

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

the Russian sub trying to defect to the United States, they're having a conversation with each other about what are they going to do when they get to America. And his first officer says that I would like to buy a pickup truck and drive from state to state, and I would like to live in Montana,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

you know, and raise. Eddie says, I will raise fat rabbits and I will have a wife cook them for me.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And then he suggests I might actually

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

need two wives if I'm going to drive state to state.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So, you know, now he does get, you know, spoiler alert. If you haven't seen a film from, what is it, 1992 or something? I have no idea when that film

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

came out, but it's 1990. They're very good, very close.

Okay.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it was a long time ago. He gets killed. And. And his last words are, you know, I would have liked to have seen Montana, you know, and it's. It's sad and. But maybe. Maybe a whole Bunch of Russian defectors have moved to Montana. And that's where this native speaking Montana

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

missionary speaking Russian is coming from.

Now, I haven't seen the movie in a long time, but Sean Connery, I believe, has a Scottish Russian accent.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I mean, he is Scottish, but he's like. Yeah, he doesn't do the Russian accent as well as some of the others, but I mean, he has the iconic line to, you know, the American agent, the Jack Ryan, you know, which is Alec Baldwin.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's, yes, that where he says, where Alec Baldwin's chasing after the, you know, this guy who's trying to kill them on the sub. And he says, ryan, be careful. Most things on the ship don't react well to bullets. And, and it's, it's such a funny way that he says it, that Alec Baldwin character actually repeats it as he's crawling through like a bay chasing after this guy's like, be care ride most things.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That was, that was a spot on Russian accent you did there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, no, no, that was a Sean Connery.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That's what I know, I know, I know. That's the joke, right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So here she is with these Russian people in Montana. Ask them if they were litters from, from Montana. She is from Montana speaking Russian missionaries. That's right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, here we go.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, Russian missionaries. Missionaries speaking Russian from Montana. One of them was and asked if they were litners to the podcast and if they knew Richard and Elder Abel, and they answered in the affirmative. So congratulations to President Abel.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I feel like we should call him Pontiff Abel at this point that in

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

his rapid accession, he ended up becoming head of the Catholic Church.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, it just happened.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Next thing you know, he was Archbishop Abel,

thank you so much for all you are doing. It has filled countless hours of my existence as I listen to episodes over and over again and learn something new every time. I'm listening to all the premium content now for the first time. So much fun. All of the shenanigans per se, which is, I believe

so she may not want to use that word after our last premium.

Yeah, she, she has, yeah, she used that word shenanigans when went full, you know, you know, you, the, the dandometer was.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

If, if you haven't listened to the latest premium episode, I, I, in passing, John C. Bennett came up and I, I lost it for like 15 minutes. I, I, I don't even know what's wrong. Like I need to go to a

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

therapist, talk to them. Like, what's your trauma? John C. Bennett conversation.

Hold on. Do you remember, is it. Is it Return of the Pink Panther where the guy's in the mental institution and. And he can't handle even the thought of Inspector Clouseau without being driven to just madness? Do you know what I'm talking about?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I haven't seen it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh, my gosh. I think I have that right. It's one of the greatest Peter sellers as. As Inspector Clouseau and the Pink Panther. I believe it's Return of Pink Panther. And anyway, you'd love it. There's nice President Ford comments about watching football games. I think you'd enjoy it very much. Anyway, so he can't even have Clouseau's name come up without him being driven to a homicidal rage.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I see. And so you're comparing him to me?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. Well, that's.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

If there. If you were ever wondering, should I get the premium content? Frankly, what better way to sell it

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

than apparently I am a crazy person?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So much my. All the shenanigans, per se is so much my cup of tea. I would expand on that, but what is in my head would not come out the same on paper. That is not my cup of tea. You would end so confused and wonder what anything I said was about. Just keep doing this. It's so informative and fun all the time. Sister McNew.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, thank you. That's very nice of her. And when she said that your content is so much fun, she's got, what, seven exclamation points? I mean, she is letting us know that she likes the fun. So for all the people that are currently writing an email right now saying, why do you laugh on your podcast? I don't like it. We also get emails from other people

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

saying, please keep doing it exactly the same way you're doing it.

Yes, it's very good. And it was seven exclamation points. Good memory. Since becoming a litner, this comes to us from Jeff. Since becoming a litner, I have discovered a new level of.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think you need to read the title to this email, though. The subject line.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You know what? I don't. I don't. I have the. Do you mean the introduction?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, no, the set. Well, the subject line is. Don't call it a comeback.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I've been here for years.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I think he's trying to play off of our. Our old rap references.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, we are a fan of the. Of the hip and the hop and the hippity to the hip hop from the 80s and 90s. Since becoming a litner, I have discovered a new level of skepticism I didn't know existed. Well, good. I'm happy to hear that. I am constantly asking my children to cite their sources on the reasons why they can't seem to become contributing members of society. I've had similar discussions with my children.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The problem is, there's no source to cite. It's just a finger pointed right back at their chest.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Last night, while dining at a fine establishment, I questioned our Applebee's server if what they were telling me were in fact the daily specials? Or are you just telling me what you think I want to hear when we all know if I come back tomorrow, I will again hear the same daily special. That raised eyebrow that is now permanently affixed on my face now points at you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Oh boy. It's coming for us.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I know. While watching the Gethsemane scene of the Chosen, they portrayed the angel that came to comfort Jesus as Joseph. Interesting. I was moved to tears with the thought of such a compassionate heavenly father who would send Jesus's earthly father to comfort him at such a time. While I know this is speculation, man, do I want that to be true. I know that having an angel, that is someone who once lived on earth, is a doctrine unique to us. My question is this. Since the Chosen is written and produced by evangelicals with some LDS influence, is there some changing in philosophy amongst other Christian faith traditions to allow for a doctrine such as we believe about the purpose of angels? Or in addition to your miserable sports picks, Do I need to question everything else I have ever been told on your alleged podcast?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Questioning even podcast exists, by the way.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thank you.

So, as though this wasn't even a podcast. I mean, you should. I mean, if you're going to put in quotes, I mean, even if we were filling you with misinformation, it would

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

still be a podcast.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, your. Your level of skepticism is. Is officially too high. That you feel like everything you believe

that a podcast exists, that. That now you end up in the Inspector Cluso insane asylum. I mean, that's where you're headed. If you're like.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And on this quote unquote computer that you quote unquote turn on.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I mean, just if. If you're starting to put air quotes

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

around nouns, that's a real problem.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Thank you, doctors. If you are in fact who you say you are, keep up the great work. I for one, am stronger in my faith for the service since I am not a premium subscriber you have provided. Sincerely, Jeff.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

First of all, we shouldn't even have read his email because he's Not a premium subscriber.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He's not in labor, and he's not premium.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

All of the answers you're looking for

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

are on the premium side of the content, Jeff. If you. If you really care, you'll really dig in.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Good question. Now, he's from St. Augustine, Florida, you said.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He is, yes.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

The. I believe. And I mean, I'd have to go. I'm sure that'd be challenged on this, But I believe St. Augustine's the oldest European settlement in what will later become the United States.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

There you go. And by the way, I do have the name of the person from Return of the Pink Panther. It is Commissioner Dreyfus. So that's. That's what you reminded me of, Commissioner Dreyfus.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you're saying I'm crazy and also inept at my job.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'm saying that he was incredibly rational and very put together. And then as soon as he mentioned Inspector Clouseau, he went to strangle his psychiatrist.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I see. Interesting. Now, a great question. You don't need to doubt everything, let alone nouns, Jeff. So there is a divide, and you're going to see this divide more and more. If you study Christian theology, there is a gigantic divide between what is taught in divinity school as doctrine and what culturally people want to believe and think. So already you have all kinds of things like shows like highway to Heaven and Touched by an angel and stuff like that, that portray angels as looking like people. Right. Angels can look like people because they're creations of God. In standard Christian theology, they are creations. In fact, one of the arguments about creation that's had amongst Christian theologians is when were the angels created? Because you have. If God's creating everything out of nothing,

[Narrator]

and

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

that means, you know, so, you know, let there. Let there be light. And so it was. Right. Well, there's nowhere in that creation sequence that talks about God creating angels. So actually, Christian theologians have arguments over when angels were created. And of course, people will say, well, he has to create them after he creates the heavens, because if he hasn't created the heavens yet, then where are the angels when he creates them? Like, he has to create the heavens first or there's no angels. What's really interesting about that entire line of conversation is what does it presuppose? It presupposes that angels at some point had to be created because God. Because God created everything out of nothing. But the question they don't ask is, what if those angels always existed? Then I guess God wouldn't be creating them. And you can see the line of blasphemy that you would very quickly go down by mentioning that to a Christian friend. In part. I mean, it is a really good question to ask. If angels are such a central part of God's plan, if they are considered higher than people, how come we aren't told when God created them? Why isn't that part of the creation story? You know, for a Latter Day Saint, we have an understanding that comes from Joseph Smith that an actual angel, not the same thing as a spirit that visits you, but an actual angel is a resurrected being. Now, part of the problem too is you're approaching this question on the basis of a. Yes, evangelically written Christian show, loved by Latter Day Saints, by the way.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Latter Day Saints, it's great.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They're all in on it. But just because it's portrayed as such does not mean that it's doctrine. I have to tell you that that specific thing you are referencing was lambasted among evangelical Christians after it was shown because it was changing what the Bible says. The Bible. And so in fairness to the, the, the person who produced the Chosen, he explained that it wasn't actually Joseph coming to visit Jesus. It was a vision or like a thought memory that Jesus had coming to visit him. In fact, this is such a controversy

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

that

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

in one of his interviews that he does, he actually has to respond to this. Dallas Jenkins is, you know, the person who produces the Chosen. And in an interview he's asked this specifically. A common fan question Jenkins said is there's been a common question about Joseph visiting Jesus. Why didn't they send an angel? Why did they send Joseph? Well, in the Garden of Gethsemane, the Chosen depicts Jesus receiving a visit from his earthly father, Joseph. The Bible says that Jesus was comforted by angels in the Garden of Gethsemane, but no record says that Joseph made a visit. Still, it was a scene that Jenkins thought was powerful. It's just something that we thought artistically and spiritually would have been a beautiful opportunity and a beautiful moment for Jesus to be comforted by his earthly father. I am not saying that Joseph is an angel.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So he's saying it very directly. I am not saying that Joseph is an angel.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I just think there's something that would, that it's something that would have been comforting to Jesus in the moment. So if you're asking, has the theology of our fellow Christians shifted on angels? No. And in point of fact, the creator of the very scene you're talking about specifically says, I am not saying that Joseph is an angel. Now, you wouldn't have to have that conversation to a Latter Day Saint.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

A Latter Day Saint would question you

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

about the identity of the angel visiting

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Jesus, but wouldn't have to have the

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

conversation about whether or not Joseph could be an angel visiting Jesus. As beautiful as the scene was and as touched as you were by it. And of course there is nothing in this is. This is created out of whole cloth the idea that Joseph is the one that comforts Jesus. Actually, in standard Christian tradition, it's the angel Gabriel that visits Jesus. Now, that is not taken as doctrine, but if you look at early medieval writers, they will say, you know, since Gabriel's the one who announced Jesus birth, it would have been Gabriel who came and comforted Jesus at the time of his death. And that's just that kind of logical thinking that is made in Latter Day Saint theology. We don't define who that angel is. Now, that's not the same thing as someone not being willing to speculate.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah, I was going to say, I mean, I think that Bruce R. McConkey was of the belief that that was Michael.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

He speculates that it would make sense that it's Michael. And he does, you know, Elder McConkey does say that it's speculation. And then other people quoting him are

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

less careful in saying that it's speculation.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you will find probably next year when we get to that portion of the New Testament, that that will be something that is brought up. Who is this angel that visits him? We don't have Latter Day Saint doctrine on it. And no, we're not deceiving you about what other Christians believe about angels to the point that even the creator of the show, you know, is.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Has to publicly respond to the fact

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

that he is not making this doctrinal claim, even though. And even says, look, we just did it because we thought it would be beautiful artistically and spiritually. And it's the reason why, you know, there's a lot of Christians who love the chosen. There are a lot of pastors who hate it. And they hate it specifically because of this. They hate it because, I mean, I don't want to draw the same line,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

but

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I am frustrated at times when people really believe they know things. And what they mean is they read the work and the glory and, and, and the problem is that they don't recognize the, the story that's being told and they're not able to separate that from their spiritual experience they had in reading it. And then this thing that didn't actually happen but was represented in the book starts to be A part of their testimony, even though it didn't actually happen. And so I think there's a lot of Christian theologians, especially, especially Calvinist and conservative theologians, they actually have entire, you know, posts about why the chosen is blasphemy and why it's false doctrine. And this is one of those things that made those rounds, right? It says an angel came to visit Jesus. Joseph isn't an angel. What are you doing? So, but that's a good question. And in fact, it's a good lead in for what we want to talk about, because we are talking about angels in part because we're talking about this apocryphal book of Enoch. If you didn't listen to our first part, again, I'm always stunned at someone, anyone who would come in and listen

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

to part two or three of anything, but not listen to part one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But it clearly happens.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

It happens because of the questions we get. People listen to, like part four of

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Moroni and be like, hey, how come you didn't talk about this? Because that was. That was part one.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Did you literally just listen to part four? Is that you're just like, you know what? I'm going to start wherever.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Maybe people listen to the podcast the same way that when people are trying to get, you know, inspiration from the

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

scriptures, they just flip it open their finger on a scripture. And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And like, while that works sometimes for people, like, I've done it. And it's just like.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And heth begat Ao, and Ao begat what?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why am I. Why am I in Deuteronomy and numbers?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

It's a lot more tricky when you're doing it with the Bible.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I gotta tell you, you gotta make sure, you know, next thing you know,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

you land on Song of Solomon.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What am I supposed to take from this?

Yeah, yeah, you land on a pomegranate verse and then there you go.

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But this apocryphal book of Enoch, just to reset for everybody, was this Jewish book attributed to Enoch that was in circulation at the time of Jesus. And I was even going to tell you that it's clearly being quoted and well known by early Christians. Jude from the New Testament will specifically talk about. Will specifically quote this portion from the Book of Enoch again, Jude, chapter 1, verse 14. And Enoch, also the seventh from Adam, prophesied saying, behold, the Lord cometh with 10,000 of his saints to execute judgment upon all and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds, which they have ungodly committed and all of their Hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them. Then you go to the Book of Enoch, and what do you get? And behold, he cometh with 10,000 of his holy ones to execute judgment upon all and to destroy all the ungodly and to convict all the flesh of all the works of ungodliness which they of ungodly committed, and of all the hard things which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. So here you have the New Testament. You have a New Testament writer quoting this Book of Enoch as if it were scriptural or at the very least, authoritative enough that it's part of the argument about what the second coming is going to be like. So that is an important thing to take in when you're dealing with the Book of Enoch. Now, I said we were going to talk about angels. One of the very interesting. One of the early questions that surround the Book of Enoch is that it provides this alternative story of good and evil. And, and what do I mean by that? Well, the. We had this. This conversation about, you know, where do angels fit in? You know, we had that earlier in the podcast. Well, the Book of Enoch attempts to explain why there is such sinfulness in

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

the world

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

by inventing or creating or stating a different narrative about where evil comes from. Now, this is going to be a little bit complex and a little bit convoluted, and we're probably gonna have to put some air quotes around the word podcast by the time we're done.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, they are trying to solve a fairly complex problem that a lot of people have. Right. I mean, yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Why is this world so wicked?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right. And once you.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And you can blame the fall of Adam, but that seems. It seems like that's not enough. Right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Billions upon billions upon billions of people condemned forever because Adam and Eve like fruit.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That. It does seem like the punishment doesn't fit the crime. And so there's this attempt to explain it. And remember, one of the problems that Judaism and Christianity have, and, you know, all of my Jewish listeners and all of my Christian listeners are tensing up right now. What do you mean there's a problem? There's not a problem at all. Look, one of the theological problems that both Christians and Jews have to deal with is you have a question that is difficult to answer, that was never difficult to answer in the ancient world, and that is, why is the world so terrible?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because in the ancient world, it was super easy. There are all kinds of gods. They're all terrible. And so they do terrible things. And so the World is terrible, right? So my crops all died because Zeus is terrible. My son died in war because Mars is terrible. Right? The gods were powerful, but they were evil. Judaism by the time the Book of Enoch is written and you know, scholars estimate it could be as early as like 300 BC that it's first being written down. And they actually, most scholars argue that it's, it's like it grows that you know, it's written down in portions and then portions are added to, and added to, and added to Judaism by that time is, is strictly monotheistic. So, so the problem that Jews and Christians have is they don't have other gods to blame. How horrible the world is on this is not a problem for a Roman or a Greek. A Greek can easily say, oh my goodness, it's so terribly unfair that my children died in this, in this boat sinking. That must have been Neptune who did that. Or you know, that that must have been Poseidon that did that, that, that destroyed my, my family. And we, we. Why would they do that? Well, because he's evil. Because he's powerful and he's evil and he's cruel. And so he does evil and cruel things. But Jews and Christians are not just saying like many other ancient pagans, my God can beat up your God. Which is essentially what, you know, like, I mean it's literally what the Assyrians say when they're outside of Jerusalem, right? When Rob Shaka who has the, the coolest name in all of the Bible is the Assyrian general Rob Shaka who, who essentially taunts the, the Israelites in Jerusalem. And one of the things he says is like, do you think your gods are any more powerful than the gods of the Hittites that we destroyed or the gods of the Babylonians that we destroyed? I mean, you're going to trust in your gods. I got news for you. The other gods thing isn't working. Obviously the Assyrian gods are the most powerful gods. So Jews and Christians are not arguing our God can beat up your God. They are arguing your God doesn't even actually exist. There isn't a Neptune and there isn't an Astaroth and there isn't a ball and there isn't anything but God. So when you make that exclusivistic argument that there is only one all powerful being and then you make in conjunction with that argument that that one all powerful being is all good. Well, as, as you learn from the music man, we've got trouble right here in River City because it's not just a pool hall. It is a world filled with absolute misery and sin, which is easy to explain when Hera is jealous of Zeus. It's much harder to explain when there's only one divine being and the world is terrible. And so my guess is, and this is obviously speculation, I might as well tell you who the angel who visited Jesus. But my guess is that the Book of Enoch has its origination in trying to explain where evil comes from in the world, at least in part now, a lot of it now. And the reason why Jude liked it,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

the reason why early Christians liked it is a lot of the Book of

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Enoch is he's coming and boy, oh

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

boy is he coming. And you better get yourself right because he's coming and it's going to be

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

pretty that I mean it. The idea of the Apocalypse, it, it's, it's, it's very much apocalyptical literature of, of the, the end times. And so you could see why Christians who are being super persecuted in the early Rome, you know, early Christian church, why Enoch is such a, it's a cool book to them because, you know, just like Jude said, hey, you know, everybody's suffering, but guess what? All those mockers, all those wicked people, all the people persecuting Christians, God's angels are coming and they're going to be taking care of some tares, so to speak, right? So it's the kind of literature that a persecuted minority wants to read, that God will eventually make these things right. Now when you go to the Book of Enoch, it tries to provide this explanation on the basis of angels. And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied, that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. You can already see where this is headed. And the angels, the children of heaven, saw and lusted after them and said one to another, come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children. So you already have this distinction between mankind and angels. They're two different created beings and that the one created being that has some greater power, the angels see mortal women and decide that they are going to go marry them, which is obviously not what God had intended when he created the angels and semjazas. You get to learn some evil. You get to learn some evil angel names in this. So if you're looking for who to name your, your kid, I'll give you a few here. Simjaza, who was their leader, said unto them, I fear you will not indeed agree to this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a Great sin. And they all answered him, meaning all of the angels, they all answered him and said, let us all swear an oath and let us all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan, but to do this thing. Then swear they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all 200 who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon. And they said in they. They called it Mount Hermon because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders. Sam Lazaz. Now, I'm saying there is no part of me that is saying this correctly. So all of the Hebrew speakers listening, like, oh, my goodness. Oh, boy. Now remember, what I'm reading is actually an English translation from Egyptian Coptic. So I don't know how they would have pronounced it either. So just. Just going to cut me a little bit of slack. It's actually Ethiopian Coptic. And these are the names of their leaders. Sham Lazaz. Their leader. Arakalba.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Romeo, Kokabel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Daniel, Ezekiel, Baraka, Jel, Azael, Armaros. I'm not. I'm not going to read all these.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

This is just.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Everyone is now in pains listening to this. And all of the others together took that with them, took themselves wives, each one for himself. And they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them. And they taught them charms and enchantments and the cutting of roots and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant. And they bear giants whose height was 3,000 elves who consumed all the acquisition of men. And when they could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they. So these are cannibalistic giants that are the. The offspring of angels and mortal women. And they began to sin against the birds and the beasts and the reptiles and the fish to devour one another's flesh and to drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones. And Azazel taught men to make swords and knives and shields and breastplates and made known to them the metals of the earth and of working them, and bracelets and ornaments and the use of antimony and beautifying of the eyelids and all kinds of costly stones and of coloring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness. And they committed fornication. And they were led astray and became corrupt in all their ways. So this is, you know, after Adam and Eve, roughly in the time of Noah. I mean, back then, everybody's living to, you know, 900 years old. So it's. There's a lot of time that things can be going on. But during this, the time of Enoch, right, Just following it, this claim that what happens is you have angels who rebel against God. They come down to Earth and they. They fornicate or, you know, take wives of mortal women. And they not only give birth to these monsters, to these giants, but they also then teach things like how to make swords and kill each other to the people. And they teach them about gold and silver and earrings and thinking that they're better than other people and teaching them fornication. So what you have is this a. An origination story of wickedness.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So not everybody knows exactly what 3,000 L's is. So it's roughly.

It's the number of times I've lost in churchbowl.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Am I right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I'll tell you what. If you had somebody that was 3000 L's, I feel pretty confident that you would go undefeated in church ball.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

How tall are they?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, so 3,000 ells is roughly 4,500ft, which is essentially two Burj Khalifa towers tall.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay, so there are giants who are

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

larger than the tallest building on Earth.

It's roughly the size of Mount Garfield in New Hampshire.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I compare most things to Mount Garfield.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I tried finding something that was comparable, and that was the closest I got.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have an extensive listener base in New Hampshire, well known for its huge Latter Day Saint audience. And I'm sure that they're like, oh, yes, it's. You know, it's clearly.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So you see somebody and they're like, 6, 10, 6, 11. Don't you dare call them a giant. Unless they're twice the size of the world's tallest skyscraper, I'm not interested.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, so. So the. The Book of Enoch goes on now. Now, why do I share this? In part because I said one of the problems with Latter Day Saints today studying the apocryphal book of Enoch because of all the things in it that they like, because it's talking about the second coming, is right up front. We need to spend a lot of time on all the false doctrine that is in the Book of Enoch. And I'm not saying that there's not anything in it that's not true. What I am saying is a huge portion of the book is this claim that evil comes into the world because angels come down and commit fornication with earthly women. Now, the idea that angels fall, okay, that's all right, we gotcha. We're okay on the idea that there's fallen angels, but that's where evil comes from, is obviously not true. Now, let me just. You know, before we leave this, I. There is a very. You know, there's a biblical passage that this comes from, and it's actually one of those passages that Christian theologians have argued about for years about what does this mean? So if you go to Genesis chapter six. Go to Genesis chapter six. Makes a reference that you can tell. This is where the writers of the apocryphal Book of Enoch, where they're expanding the story, okay? And it came to pass that when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them, and the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair, and they took them, and they took them wives, all of which they chose. And the Lord said, my spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh, yet his days shall be 120 years. There were giants in the earth in those days. And also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bear them children, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And when God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, and the creeping things in the fowls of the air, for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. And so this is how Noah makes it out, right? So you can see that there's. What does this mean? The sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were fair and they took them wise, which they all chose well. The Book of Enoch, like many apocryphal books, answers that question by explaining what it means. And it gives this explanation that. That a bunch of angels fell from heaven and took wives among mortal women and then taught mortals all kinds of evil. I mean, if you're wondering how could the world become so evil that God has to destroy it with the flood because of all these fallen angels and their giant children that they're having. And, you know, the next chapter of the Book of Enoch actually goes into the fact that, you know, you see all the wickedness on the earth and the good Angels, they see what's going on and. And they ask for the ability to stop it. Right. Thou seest what Azazel has done, who have taught all unrighteousness on the earth. This is from the Book of Enoch, not Genesis. If you're wondering, they're like, I don't

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

even see this in Genesis 6.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Thou seest what Azazel has done, who taught all unrighteousness on the earth and revealed the eternal secrets which were in the heaven which men were striving to learn. And sham lazaz. Ah, shamazz. That old everyone knows. Yes, to whom thou hast given authority to bear rule over his associates. And they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth, and they have slept with the women and defiled themselves and revealed to them all kinds of sins. So again, it's these fallen angels that are teaching mankind sinful activities. And the women have born giants. And the whole earth has thereby been filled with blood and unrighteousness. And now, behold, the souls of those who have died are crying out, making sweet to the gates of heaven that their lamentations have ascended and cannot cease because of the lawless deeds which are wrought on the earth. And so they are the ones who precipitate God telling these angels to go tell Noah, tell him in my name to hide thyself and reveal to him that the end is approaching. The whole earth will be destroyed and a deluge is about to come upon the earth and will destroy all that is on it. And now instruct him that he may escape and his seed may be preserved for generations of the world. Okay, so, so this, you know, goes in then to the, to the, the story of Noah, but with much more detail about the angels fighting and, and, and all of the things that are going on there. And this idea that the, that the fallen angels had.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That what that passage meant was that fallen angels had, you know, committed adultery with mortal women. It actually has a really long memory. And it's actually one of the ways that it shows that the Book of Enoch is in circulation in the early Christian church. Because if you go to these. If you go to some of these early Christian fathers, when they talk about this, they talk about it essentially quoting the Book of Enoch, not quoting it, but taking that story as the explanation, again, because Genesis gives you the hook, right? There's some kind of explanation going on there. What are the sons of God? And what does this mean that they went in among the daughters of men? And what does that mean? If you go to, you Know, if you go to Clement in the early, early church fathers, he has a series of homilies. And one of them, homily eight, talks about this, the cause of the fall of man. But they, because they at first had no experience of evils being insensible to the gift of good things, were turned to ingratitude by abundance of food and luxuries. So that they even thought that there is no providence, since they had not by previous labor got good things as the reward of righteousness, inasmuch as no one of them had fallen into any suffering or disease or any other necessity. So that's talking about. About Adam and Eve, Clement is arguing. And Clement is from the. The first century, he's one of the earliest Christian fathers, that the reason why they fell is because they, you know, the Garden of Eden was so nice that they forgot that they were staying as a guest at the Sandals Resort and essentially started to think that they were the Sandals Resort. That's. That's essentially what Clement is saying, that they became covetous of these things that are just happening all around them. So that is usual for men afflicted on account of wicked transgression. They should look about for God who is able to heal them. But immediately after their despite which proceedeth from fearlessness and secure luxury, a certain just punishment for them, as following from a certain arranged harmony, removing them from good things, as having hurt them, and introducing evil things instead as advantageous for the spirits who inhabit the heaven. The angels who dwell in the lowest region, being grieved at the ingratitude of men to God, ask that they might come into the life of men. That really becoming men by more intercourse they might convict those who had acted ungratefully towards him. And might subject everyone to adequate punishment. When, therefore their petition was granted, they metamorphosed themselves into every nature. For being of a more godlike substance, they are able easily to assume any form. And so they became precious stones and goodly pearls and the most beauteous purple and choice gold and all matter that is held in his most esteem. And they fell into the hands of some and to the bosoms of others. And they suffered themselves to be stolen by them. And they also changed themselves into beasts and into reptiles and fishes and birds. And whatsoever they pleased these things. Also the poets among yourselves, by reason of fearlessness, sing as they befell, attributing to one of the many and diverse doings of all. But when, having assumed these forms, they convicted as covetous those who stole them and changed themselves into the nature of men, in order that living wholly and showing the possibility of so living, they might subject the ungrateful to punishment. Yet having become in all respects men, they also partook of human lust and being brought under its subjection, they fell into cohabitation with women and being involved with them, and sunk in defilement and altogether emptied of their first power, were unable to turn back to the first purity of their proper nature. Their members turned away from their fiery substance, for the fire itself, being extinguished by the weight of lust and changed into flesh, they trode the impious path downward, for they themselves, being fettered with the bonds of flesh, were constrained and strongly bound, wherefore they have no more been able to ascend to the heavens. So, I mean, this is a story you don't find in the Bible, right?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No, you don't.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Clement is teaching that the angels saw how wicked men were, essentially how ungrateful they were.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

You guys think this is all just your stuff.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

No, God gave you this stuff. And so they're like, look, let us transform ourselves because we're not people. Again, angels aren't people. Let's transform ourselves into, like, sapphires and,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

like, good food and stuff. And we'll. We'll be able to, like, infiltrate humanity

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

to help show them how covetous and unholy they are. But they fell victim to one of the classic plunders. The first is never get involved in a land war in Asia. The second, and only slightly less well known, is this. Never transform yourself into fallen man, because after that, you're going to be a fallen man. And that's. Essentially they are wicked, and so they.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

They assume the same fallen nature and

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

they're unable to come back from it. But I share that to show that this idea that angels. Richard, are you okay?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That was so good. That was so well done. And the. The land war in Asia was just. It was. It was beautiful. Nailed it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But so. So these early. These early writers, they appear to kind of take what's being said in the book of Enoch as the truth, as this interpretation of Genesis. Justin Martyr, we don't know Justin's actual name, but he eventually gets killed.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And so they call him Justin Martyr. We know his name's Justin, but we call him Justin Martyr because, I mean,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

he is what happens to him. Essentially, he gets murdered for being a Christian. But this is what he says in his second apology that he writes. The angels transgressed this appointment, and they were captivated by love of women and begat children. Who are those that are called demons. So. So here now the argument is it's not giants that are being produced. It's actual demons that are, like, half mortal. Because they were part angel and part mortal, they're called demons. Besides, they afterwards subdued the human race to themselves, partly by magical writings, partly by fears and the punishments they occasioned, and partly by teaching them to offer sacrifices and incense and libations, of which things they stood in need after they were enslaved by lustful passions. And among men they sowed murders, wars, adulteries, intemperate deeds, and all wickedness. You'll notice how close that is to. To the Book of Enoch. Right. This here's Justin Martyr and Justin Martyrs, you know, in the early second Christian century. Early Christian. He is explaining this introduction of evil into the world by these demon children that are the children of mortal humans and fallen angels, whence also the poets and mythologists, not knowing that it was the angels and those demons who had been begotten by them, who did these things unto men and women and cities and nations, when they related and ascribed them to God himself and to those who were accounted to be his offspring, and to the offspring of those who were called his brothers, Neptune and Pluto, and to the children, again, of their offspring, for whatever name each of the angels had given to himself and his children by that name, they called them. So. So he's actually explaining the reason why pagans believe that there were multiple gods is because these fallen angels were acting as if they had power and they had some kind of divinity. Now, I know we're out of time. How many more early Christian fathers should we quote?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I don't know. You played a lot of the hits.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, I've only really gotten Clement and Justin Martyr.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So what did Origen say?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, Origen's. You know, he's a long ways away. Yeah. If we go to all the way to Origin, I'm. I'm actually not even sure if Origin does talk about it. I mean, I know. I know that Irenaeus talks about it.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay.

All right. I'm a big fan of him.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah, well. But we are.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

We are.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna leave everyone hanging on, what does Irenaeus say?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

And everyone's gonna be. All week, they're gonna be like, I. I don't know. I don't know. What does Irenaeus say? I mean, he clearly says something, but what does Irenaeus say? Do you think many of our listeners are just on the edge of their seat waiting For Irenaeus, I think so

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Irenaeus sounds a lot like the Simpsons version of the Planet of the Apes musical where they. Dr. Zayas. Dr. Zayas.

Doctor Zayas. Dr. Zeus. Dr. Zeus. Dr. Zeiss.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

By the way, I should share that

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

that

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

friends of the show. Friend of the show. Jared sent me a text that he was.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

He was with

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Jasmine and Neil, also friends of the show.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Oh yeah, of course.

And they were talking.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

They were trying to remember who the actor was in. In a certain show. And they, they, they were, you know, you know how it is when you're trying to remember the name of somebody, you know, kind of like a Inspector Clouseau type of.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Type of thing where.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Where you don't really know the name and you're like, was it so? And so apparently while Jasmine and Neil were trying to figure out this name, you know, Neil was like, you know it is it. The actor's name was. Was Dylan McDermott. Right.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

And the.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What came to his mouth was Garrett McDermott. And Jasmine said to him that sounds like a Temu Church historian. And you know, which is funny. Also I already am a Teemu.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

What is.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

What's below Temu. I mean, where am I at when

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

it comes to church's stories?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

But yes, I know that everyone wants to. I mean, look, I, I want to talk to you about Irenaeus. If that doesn't bring you back, I want to talk to you about Tertullian.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay, well, there you go.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Yeah. And I think people like Tertullian just because he sounds like Turtle.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

By the way, Garrett, I. So two. Two people that most people haven't heard. We're going to hear what they have to say about. About this. But one thing we forgot to mention and I feel like it's really good plan to. To make announcements at. At after an hour and six.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We already said that we're done.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yes, but we, we need to do better on the next free episode. But the monthly newsletter actually is happening now. The first one went out for the. Not Friend of the show, but like the reason the show exists. Brady puts that together from transcripts and

shown he's an enemy of the show now.

Enemy of the show.

We need another category of listener. We've got. We've got Friend of the Show. We've got Littner and we need Enemy of the Show.

Well, he's enemy of Garrett because it's the reason that the podcast exists is Brady. So he, he. So he's working. We're sending the transcripts over. He's putting that Together in the monthly newsletter that you can subscribe to in the substack. I think that the last one just dropped for January, dropped in February. That had all of the stuff for the January episodes, including the premium stuff, information on the premium episodes. So that's going to be coming out every month versus the last time we posted one, which was when Clinton was president. So it's been a minute.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

We have not been very good on that. But we're going to try to at least give highlights of, you know, if you're thinking, well, I haven't listened to that podcast in a while.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I'll only listen if there's something good. Are they quoting Irenaeus? Oh, they are. And then they get back on that.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

That's what I assume it will help with that. Although a lot of people apparently just sign up for literally any newsletter because when the newsletter went out, we got

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

emails from people like, what is this? What's going on? Why am I getting this?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Like, we didn't, like, just go online and buy your email. Although now that I say that maybe,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

maybe that's what we'll do, you know,

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

but so that, you know, Brady will be sending that to kind of give people an idea. And also, one other announcement is we still have a couple of slots left on the Missouri Nauvoo tour for this year because we had someone who canceled. So if you were hoping to get on and it's been sold out for a year, so you couldn't. There are some spots available now because we had a family that had to cancel. And so if you wanted to go, you know, go to the website and sign up for that. But thank you so much for listening. I promise. Well, I can't promise anything. We will talk about more about this, but also we're going to get into what Joseph Smith has to say about this.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Well, I actually care about that one.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So what if I led with that instead of Tertullian, we're going to talk about Joseph Smith.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Yeah. Yeah.

I feel like that's way better. Yeah.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Okay.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

So forget Tertullian, forget Ambrose. Forget. Forget.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I didn't even tell you Ambrose.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But I was going to sneak Ambrose in there.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I was going to sneak in Lactantius. I was going to sneak in Clement of Alexandria, which is a different Clement.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

That snicker was unintentional for whatever reason. You get two Clements in there. You get Clement to get Clement of Alexandria. Clement of Alexandria has got to be frustrated that he's Clement of Alexandria. The other one's just Clement right Yeah, I mean.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Well, I mean, what. Alexandria was a big deal, though, back then. So it would be like, you know, people who are from, like, New York City are, like, super proud of themselves. Yeah.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

But it's like you have share and share from Des Moines. Like, I. I don't know, because it.

What if it's share and share from New York City?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

Because Alexandria is such a big deal.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Okay?

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So, like, like, you know, everybody knows someone who's from a place that they're so proud of it that they talk about it all the time of where they're from because they think it makes them better.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

Right.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

I mean, like, people from Idaho, for instance. You know, I, you know, when I meet people like, oh, you know, are you from Utah? And I'm like, well, actually, I'm from Idaho, which doesn't impress anybody.

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

No.

For whatever reason, my Idaho sensibilities have

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

to say, oh, so you live in Idaho?

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

I haven't lived in Idaho in 30

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

years,

[Dr. Richard Leduc]

but I am from there, and I'm going to keep saying it.

[Dr. Garrett Dirkmaat]

So we will have multiple early Christian fathers. We will talk more about the apocryphal book of Enoch and how it relates to Joseph Smith's book of Moses and the other teachings of Joseph Smith on Enoch in our next episode. Thank you so much for joining us.

[Narrator]

Thank you for listening to the Standard of Truth podcast, hosted by historian Dr. Garrett Dirkmot and Dr. Richard Leduc. If you know of anybody that could benefit from the material in this episode, please share it with them. Until next time.