Statecraft Podcast Episode Summary

Title: How to Build the '90s DOGE
Host: Santi Ruiz
Guest: John Kamensky, Deputy for the Reinventing Government Initiative under Vice President Al Gore
Release Date: May 23, 2025

Introduction

In the episode titled "How to Build the '90s DOGE," host Santi Ruiz engages in a comprehensive discussion with John Kamensky, the former deputy for Vice President Al Gore's Reinventing Government Initiative (RGI). Kamensky, often referred to as "Mr. Checklist," brings invaluable insights into the longest-running government reform project in American history. The conversation delves into the history, successes, challenges, and lasting impacts of the RGI, drawing parallels and contrasts with contemporary initiatives like Doge.

The Reinventing Government Initiative: An Overview

Establishing RGI's Legacy
John Kamensky describes the Reinventing Government Initiative as "the longest running government reform project in American history" (01:43). He underscores its unique endurance compared to previous 20th-century reform efforts, highlighting its significant influence on government operations and the dialogue among federal employees.

Successes and Lasting Impact
Kamensky asserts that RGI was a "success," citing its achievement in transforming how government employees perceived their roles. Over its eight-year tenure, RGI not only fostered a sense of empowerment among civil servants but also left a legacy that persisted beyond its active years. Notably, approximately 40% of the civil service comprehended RGI's objectives, creating sustainable momentum across subsequent administrations (02:09). Key outcomes included the incorporation of RGI's recommendations into roughly 100 statutes and administrative actions like designating Deputy Secretaries as chief operating officers, a practice that continues today (03:23).

Historical Context of Government Reform

A Legacy of Reform Efforts
Kamensky places RGI within the broader tapestry of American government reform, referencing initiatives dating back to the early 20th century. He mentions pivotal commissions such as the 1904 Keep Commission, the 1937 Roosevelt effort, the 1949 and 1955 Hoover Commissions, and others under Presidents Johnson, Nixon, Carter, and Reagan (04:01). Unlike prior efforts that predominantly involved external business experts advising the government, RGI uniquely engaged civil servants directly to address operational inefficiencies.

Intellectual Underpinnings and Policy Climate
The late 1980s and early 1990s were ripe for reform, influenced by the New Public Management Theory, which advocated for applying business principles like internal competition and efficiency to government operations. Kamensky recounts how ideas from thought leaders like David Osborne, who authored "Reinventing Government," inspired the formation of RGI (06:03).

Launching the Reinventing Government Initiative

From Concept to Reality
Kamensky narrates the genesis of RGI, detailing how conversations with David Osborne and interactions with key figures in the Clinton transition team led to the establishment of the National Performance Review (NPR) in March 1993 (09:17). The initiative was characterized by its grassroots approach, relying on the expertise and dedication of career civil servants rather than external consultants.

Organizational Structure and Operations
Initially envisioned as a six-month project, RGI expanded into an eight-year endeavor. The team, comprising around 35 to 50 individuals, was responsible for overseeing both agency-specific and system-wide reforms. Kamensky describes the resourcefulness of the team in securing office space and technological support, highlighting the collaborative spirit that fueled the initiative's early successes (18:16).

Engaging the Workforce
A pivotal strategy employed by RGI was the organization of town hall meetings where Vice President Gore and agency secretaries listened to candid feedback from federal employees. Kamensky recounts an illustrative moment where Bob Stone demonstrated administrative inefficiencies by presenting a "can of spray paint" as an example of bureaucratic waste, prompting Gore to demand actionable reforms (15:22).

Principles and Strategies of RGI

Empowering Employees Over Reorganizing Agencies
Under Gore's directive, RGI prudently avoided recommending major reorganizations or consolidations of agencies, recognizing the high political costs associated with such changes (25:52). Instead, the focus was on "fixing what's inside the boxes" by streamlining processes, cutting red tape, and empowering employees to enhance customer service and operational efficiency.

Cultural Transformation and Reinvention Labs
Bob Stone championed the transformation of government culture through "reinvention labs," which acted as experimental hubs within agencies to pilot innovative practices. These labs were granted waiver authority over internal rules, fostering an environment conducive to experimentation and improvement (34:59).

Challenges and Criticisms

Headcount Reductions and the Rise of Contractors
One of the most contentious aspects of RGI was the significant reduction in federal workforce, aiming to cut approximately 400,000 civil servants. Kamensky acknowledges that this led to the increased reliance on outside contractors, often referred to as "Beltway Bandits," which created a shadow workforce external to the formal employee records (39:34).

Conflict with the Office of Management and Budget (OMB)
RGI's approach of empowering employees clashed with OMB's traditional emphasis on top-down control. This discord impeded the seamless implementation of RGI's workforce reshaping objectives, as OMB was more focused on control rather than empowerment (43:00).

Unintended Consequences on Federal Workforce Composition
Kamensky notes a demographic shift resulting from hiring freezes and reductions, leading to an older federal workforce with fewer young employees entering the system. This lack of junior talent has long-term implications for the government's capacity to innovate and adapt (46:15).

Reflections and Lessons Learned

Missed Opportunities
Kamensky expresses regret that RGI did not effectively foster cross-agency collaboration and failed to link performance metrics directly to budgetary processes. He highlights successful models, such as New York City's "million dollar blocks," where multi-agency teams address comprehensive social services in specific neighborhoods, as potential frameworks that RGI did not fully explore at the federal level (50:03).

Sustaining Reform Across Administrations
A significant challenge for RGI was maintaining momentum and engagement across different presidential administrations. Kamensky contrasts RGI's career civil servant-driven model with the subsequent Bush administration's politically appointed officials who pursued a more rigid management agenda (54:00).

Impact of External Events: The 9/11 Paradigm Shift

Counterfactual Considerations
When discussing the potential impact of the September 11 attacks on RGI's trajectory, Kamensky posits that the transformation efforts might have continued more smoothly without the seismic shift in national priorities. However, he acknowledges that the Bush administration adapted its approach to government reform, emphasizing a five-part management agenda that aligned with its strategic objectives, albeit diverging from RGI's original vision (52:59).

Looking Forward: Forecasting the Influence of Doge

Potential Consequences of Contemporary Reforms
Kamensky expresses concerns about the ongoing Doge initiative, predicting significant strains on government capacity and a further erosion of public trust. He fears that accelerated headcount cuts and centralization efforts could lead to service delivery gaps and diminished citizen confidence in governmental institutions (55:26).

Advising on Future Reforms
In contemplating how to rectify the challenges posed by Doge, Kamensky emphasizes the impossibility of reversing established reforms but stresses the necessity of developing innovative approaches to restore functionality and trust in government services. He underscores the need for leveraging technology and fostering new collaborative frameworks to address the systemic issues that have emerged (57:10).

Conclusion

The episode culminates with Kamensky's poignant reflection on the state of government reform efforts, emphasizing the delicate balance between efficiency and accountability. His insights into the successes and shortcomings of the Reinventing Government Initiative offer valuable lessons for contemporary and future reform endeavors, underscoring the enduring challenge of transforming large bureaucratic systems in a manner that truly serves the public interest.

Notable Quotes

• “We had to fix what's inside the boxes. Empowering employees to get their jobs done and improve customer service was the mantra.” — John Kamensky 02:09

• “The Defense Department hires chemists with a chemistry degree, and their job is to make sure that each of these spray cans of paint is still useful.” — John Kamensky 15:22

• “Don't move boxes, fix what's inside them. We've got good people trapped in bad systems.” — John Kamensky 25:52

• “You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. We need to develop a whole new approach or new system.” — John Kamensky 57:10

This summary provides an in-depth exploration of the discussions between Santi Ruiz and John Kamensky, capturing the essence of the Reinventing Government Initiative and its implications for contemporary government reform efforts.