Podcast Summary: Statecraft – "What Can the Brits Teach Us About State Capacity?"

Release Date: December 20, 2024
Host: Santi Ruiz
Guests: Jennifer Palka and Andrew Greenway

Introduction

In this episode of Statecraft, host Santi Ruiz engages with Jennifer Palka, a senior fellow at the Niskanen Center and the Federation of American Scientists, and Andrew Greenway, co-founder of Public Digital and former senior British public servant. The discussion revolves around the concept of state capacity, its current standing in the US and UK, and lessons that the US can glean from the UK's approach to enhancing governmental effectiveness.

Defining State Capacity

The conversation kicks off with a foundational question: What is state capacity?

• Andrew Greenway (01:34): "The academic definition is just the ability of a government to achieve its policy goals."

He elaborates on the increasing relevance of state capacity amidst growing frustrations over unmet policy outcomes despite substantial budgets.

• Unnamed British Speaker (02:12): "It's translating political and democratic intent into tangible outcomes that the public can feel."

Jennifer Palka highlights that while state capacity was once an academic term, it has gained traction among the public due to observable inefficiencies in policy implementation.

• Jennifer Palka (03:46): "The frustration of not feeling those outcomes, that disjuncture between hearing we're going to invest in something and then it doesn't happen as intended."

Public Interest and Political Discourse

The discussion moves to the rising public interest in state capacity and its representation in political dialogues.

• Andrew Greenway (02:37): Although skeptical about mass public awareness, he acknowledges that those informed about the term find it significant.

• Unnamed British Speaker (04:32): Notes that terms like "civil service reform" have become wearying, leading to a hunger for new language and actionable change.

Santi Ruiz observes that the term is gaining mainstream relevance, particularly among the educated listening audience.

US and UK Perspectives on State Capacity

The collaboration between Jennifer and Andrew stems from a shared interest in enhancing state capacity across both nations. Andrew emphasizes the UK's advancements as a benchmark for the US.

• Andrew Greenway (04:50): "I think the UK has a different system where they can show real examples of closing the loop between policy and implementation."

• Unnamed British Speaker (06:52): Highlights the UK's new Labour government's mission-driven approach, setting five missions like growth, health, care, and crime, aiming to rebuild trust in politics and institutions.

Jennifer adds that the US tends to frame civil service reform more along partisan lines, particularly on the right with initiatives like Schedule F, whereas the UK adopts a more cross-party perspective.

Case Studies: Universal Credit and Unemployment Insurance

A pivotal part of the discussion centers on Universal Credit in the UK and the US’s unemployment insurance system, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic.

• Jennifer Palka (11:15): References her essay, "The Brits Are Way Ahead of Us," discussing Universal Credit's effectiveness compared to US systems.

• Unnamed British Speaker (15:00): Details the evolution of Universal Credit, emphasizing a multidisciplinary team approach that allowed for iterative testing and scaling, which proved resilient during the pandemic.

• Andrew Greenway (17:58): Contrasts this with California’s unemployment insurance backlog, exposing systemic flaws exacerbated by outdated processes and policies.

A notable exchange highlights the paradox of combating fraud:

• Andrew Greenway (25:32): "Legislators need to learn to subtract as much as they add… often, fear of fraud leads to defensive systems that ultimately increase fraud."

Multidisciplinary Teams and Government Digital Services

The guests discuss the importance of multidisciplinary teams in government digital initiatives, comparing the UK's Government Digital Service (GDS) with the US Digital Service (USDS).

• Unnamed British Speaker (29:18): Shares personal experiences from GDS, emphasizing collaborative teams composed of developers, designers, and policy experts focused on delivering tangible outcomes.

• Jennifer Palka (32:18): Narrates the influence of GDS on establishing USDS, citing a transformative visit to GDS that inspired structural changes in US government digital projects.

• Andrew Greenway (34:49): Praises USDS's successes, such as online passport renewals, and underscores the need for sustained funding and empowerment to maintain momentum.

Recommendations for Enhancing State Capacity

Drawing from their joint paper, "How We Need Now A Capacity Agenda for 2025 and Beyond," Jennifer and Andrew offer strategic recommendations to bolster state capacity in the US and UK.

• Unnamed British Speaker (44:19):

  1. Workforce Optimization: Improve hiring processes to attract skilled public servants and implement robust performance management.
  2. Iterative Funding Models: Adopt agile and incremental funding approaches to support test-and-learn methodologies.
  3. Enhanced Oversight: Shift from periodic, large-scale oversight to continuous, incremental feedback mechanisms involving senior leadership.

• Andrew Greenway (47:20):

  1. Reduce Procedural Burdens: Streamline administrative processes using AI and other digital tools to mitigate procedural bloat.
  2. Legal Reforms: Address adversarial legalism by revising restrictive laws like the Administrative Procedures Act to lower barriers for essential projects.
  3. Invest in Digital Infrastructure: Transition from a project-based to a product-based development model, ensuring funding aligns with agile practices and supports continuous improvement.

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a reaffirmation of the necessity for both the US and UK to adopt innovative, collaborative, and agile approaches to enhance state capacity. By learning from the UK's successes and addressing inherent systemic challenges, both countries can better achieve their policy goals and restore public trust in governmental institutions.

• Andrew Greenway (50:03): "We hope that people take it seriously and can pick up whatever part really resonates for them."

Santi Ruiz thanks Jennifer and Andrew for their insightful contributions, encouraging listeners to explore their detailed paper for a comprehensive understanding of the proposed capacity agenda.

Notable Quotes

• Andrew Greenway [01:34]: "The academic definition is just the ability of a government to achieve its policy goals."

• Unnamed British Speaker [04:32]: "There's a hunger for some new language as well as something to actually happen."

• Andrew Greenway [11:27]: "It's like when you have the Minister responsible... it's like closing the loop that is testing and learning in a way that's going to get you a policy that actually gets the outcome you intended."

• Andrew Greenway [25:32]: "Legislators need to learn to subtract as much as they add… preventizing oversight that constrains them so much they can't move and then yell at them for failure."

• Andrew Greenway [44:19]: "Filter out the procedural bloat… we have to move from a project model to a product model."

Further Resources

Listeners interested in delving deeper into the topics discussed can access the interview transcripts and additional resources by subscribing at www.statecraft.pub.