Does God Want Me to Be Happy? with Tauren Wells

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Does God Want Me to Be Happy?" featuring Tauren Wells

Introduction

In this compelling episode of Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt, host Madison Pruitt Troutt engages in a profound conversation with renowned Christian artist and author Tauren Wells. The discussion delves deep into the nature of true joy, contrasting worldly happiness with the divine joy offered through a relationship with God. Released on June 9, 2025, this episode offers listeners insightful perspectives on maintaining genuine joy amidst life's challenges.

Guest Introduction

Madison warmly welcomes Tauren Wells to the podcast, highlighting his impressive achievements, including:

• 10 Grammy nominations
• 8 GMA awards
• Over 1.2 billion streams
• Founder of Church of Whitestone in Austin, Texas
• Author of Joy Bomb

Key Discussion Points

1. The Call to Plant a Church vs. Musical Success

   • [05:06] Tauren Wells: Emphasizes that success can sometimes be a "trap," leading individuals to settle for less than their divine calling.
   • [05:48] Madison Pruitt Troutt: Explores Tauren’s decision to pivot from a flourishing music career to establishing a church, questioning how God directed this significant change.

2. Understanding True Joy vs. Worldly Happiness

   • [17:44] Tauren Wells: Discusses his inspiration for writing Joy Bomb, highlighting a pivotal moment from Matthew 5 where Jesus begins His sermon with "Happy are the poor in spirit" (Matthew 5:3).
   • [35:25] Tauren Wells: Clarifies that joy is not merely an emotional state but a relational attribute of God Himself. He contrasts this with the world's fleeting notions of happiness.

3. Theological Insights on Joy

   • Difference Between Joy and Happiness:
     • [38:26] Tauren Wells: Defines joy as a fruit of the Spirit, emphasizing its divine origin and sustainable nature compared to temporary happiness.
     • [42:50] Tauren Wells: Argues that happiness is not found in external achievements or circumstances but is an intrinsic state rooted in a relationship with Jesus.
   • Eternal Perspective:
     • [62:19] Tauren Wells: Illustrates that true joy is tied to eternal fulfillment, pointing towards the ultimate presence of God as the source of everlasting joy.

4. Practical Steps to Cultivate Joy

   • Delighting in the Lord:
     • [28:37] Tauren Wells: Shares personal practices like spending time in nature and quiet reflection to deepen his relationship with God, thereby cultivating genuine joy.
   • Authentic Relationships:
     • [66:38] Tauren Wells: Highlights the importance of connecting with others and being present in relationships as conduits for experiencing joy.

5. Addressing Suffering and Pain

   • [49:35] Tauren Wells: Affirms that God permits suffering and pain as part of the human experience, providing space for growth and deeper joy.
   • [57:14] Tauren Wells: Encourages honest confrontation of pain, allowing God’s presence to heal and transform suffering into enduring joy.

Notable Quotes

• Tauren Wells on Success and Calling:

  “Success sometimes can be the greatest trap and tool of the enemy to get you to settle for less than what you were called to.”
  [05:06]

• Tauren Wells on True Joy:

  “Joy is not a concept, it's a person.”
  [35:33]

• Tauren Wells on Delighting in the Lord:

  “Quiet enough to actually be real with God, you're quiet enough to be real with yourself.”
  [31:52]

• Tauren Wells on Eternal Joy:

  “The ultimate promise of joy in his presence is when we walk across the threshold of time into eternity.”
  [38:35]

Insights and Conclusions

Tauren Wells eloquently distinguishes between fleeting happiness and profound, lasting joy rooted in a relationship with God. He underscores that true joy is cultivated through authentic connections, both with God and others, and is sustained even amidst adversity. By sharing personal anecdotes and theological insights, Wells provides a roadmap for listeners to seek and embrace genuine joy that transcends circumstances.

He also emphasizes the transformative power of addressing and processing pain with God's presence, rather than bypassing it. This approach fosters resilience and a deeper, more enduring sense of joy that aligns with divine purpose.

Practical Takeaways

1. Prioritize Relationship Over Achievement: Focus on deepening your connection with God rather than accumulating external successes.
2. Embrace Authenticity: Allow yourself to experience and express genuine emotions, trusting that God is present in both joy and sorrow.
3. Engage in Reflective Practices: Incorporate time for quiet reflection, nature walks, or personal retreats to foster inner joy.
4. Cultivate Meaningful Relationships: Invest in authentic connections with others as avenues for shared joy and support.
5. Seek Eternal Fulfillment: Align your pursuit of joy with an eternal perspective, recognizing that ultimate fulfillment is found in God's presence.

Conclusion

This episode of Stay True with Madison Prewett Troutt offers a profound exploration of joy from a Christian perspective, challenging listeners to seek a deeper, more enduring form of happiness rooted in their relationship with God. Tauren Wells’ insights encourage embracing authenticity, addressing personal pain, and prioritizing eternal fulfillment, providing a transformative approach to experiencing true joy.

Stay Connected

For more on Tauren Wells and his work, including his book Joy Bomb and music, visit his social media platforms and explore his inspiring journey towards living a joy-filled life grounded in faith.

Transcript

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

The global phenomenon, the Chosen, the series that has captured audiences around the world, has arrived. I recently posted a Q and A on Instagram and I always get asked the question, what is your favorite TV show or movie? And honestly, the answer is so easy because I don't watch a lot of tv except the Chosen. It's not your typical Bible show. It's raw, it's real, and it's full of emotion. It truly feels like you're walking through the most iconic Bible stories with them. And now it's back with its most powerful season yet. Season five drops June 15th on Prime Video. I know you guys are going to be just as obsessed with this TV show like Grant and I are. The end is just the beginning of this epic incredible true story. Don't miss the exciting new season, the chosen Last Supper. June 15, season five on Prime Video. Trip planner by Expedia.

[Grant]

You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub Job Expedia made to travel. What practical advice would you give to the person that's saying, I want to have more joy in my life. I want to be a joy filled person. I just don't know how.

[Torn Wells]

God is the God of infinite joy. So how can I be with God becoming like God but not become more joyful and more happy? He is uniquely interested in your happiness.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's so easy to fall into that and it's so easy to get so focused on doing a lot of good things for God and just totally miss being with God.

[Torn Wells]

If you're so self conscious that every room you walk into, you're thinking about how do I look, how do I come across, how do I say this, how do I perform, how do I please people? That's compounding in your life to sabotage your joy.

[Grant]

God is so good to not give us joy. With the quick hitters. He's like, it's a little bit longer than that.

[Torn Wells]

All right now I'm about to get fired up.

[Grant]

Feel.

[Torn Wells]

I can feel the mic.

[Grant]

Somebody hold his mic in place.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

What's up guys? Welcome back to another episode of Stay True podcast. I'm your host, Madison Pruitt Trout, here with my husband and we have in the podcast studio a very special friend.

[Grant]

Come on.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Corn Wells. And he is you guys. In doing my research on Torn, I'm like my brother, has he done a lot, done a lot and God has truly blessed him. He is nominated for 10 Grammys he has 8 GMA awards. He has over 1.2 billion streams, and he and his wife Lorna have a church in Austin, Texas, called Church of Whitestone. They have four kids, and he is now a new author to a book called Joy Bomb, which we're going to be talking about a little bit today. But I'm so excited that you are here in Nashville, Tennessee, on the Stay True podcast. So thank you for coming.

[Torn Wells]

Thank you for having me. I really, really appreciate it. And you saying all that makes me realize why I'm tired.

[Grant]

Sounds like a lot, man.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

We're preach. We're preaching this. We are recording this. And it was. This is like pre recorded before it's going to come out. And so he's coming off of a lot of Easter.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, Easter Seven. Easter Seven, man.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Seven.

[Grant]

That's beast mode, man.

[Torn Wells]

I don't know if it's seven services or four kids. I don't know which one I would attribute the fatigue to.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

How many kids? Okay, no, you have four kids, but how old are they?

[Torn Wells]

So four boys.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, four boys, about to be 12, 9, 7, and 4.

[Grant]

Oh, my gosh.

[Torn Wells]

So it's just wild.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Your wife is amazing.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, she is amazing. She is amazing.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I randomly ran into her at Magnolia and we just, like, hit it off and I was like, we've got to come to Austin and come to the church. And then we ended up moving, like, not long after that. So we didn't end up getting to come to.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, but now still planes and.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yes, exactly. It's over, man.

[Grant]

We'll never be there.

[Torn Wells]

We're definitely coming to White.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah, no, we will, we will. We love Austin, so we're gonna come and. And make it happen. But we're just so excited you're on.

[Torn Wells]

The podcast, so thanks for having me.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Grant]

I told you. I told Maddie the first time that we saw you, we went to Jonathan Isaac's Unitis launch.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, that's right.

[Grant]

And we pulled in and you were performing, and I was like, who is this dude? Yeah, they're so smooth up there. Like Drizzy Drake. But it's Christian music. Yeah. And, bro, I just wanted to say, I know she read off the stats, but your talent level is unbelievable. And I remember watching you going, that's just a gift from God. And then when we ran into your wife and she said, y' all are planting a church, I just remember thinking, you have every reason not to do that. Like, not to plant a church. Like, you got a career, you're Grammy nominated. I'd love to Start off just by hearing, how did that come into your heart? Because honestly, man, that is a wrench in what could be a really smooth sailing. I wouldn't say comfortable life, but you had your career going. This feels inconvenient. But a call like, how did God put that in your heart?

[Torn Wells]

That's a great question, Grant. I feel like success sometimes can be the greatest trap and tool of the enemy to get you to settle for less than what you were called to. And just because I've had to wrestle my heart down with this, but just because you can do something doesn't mean you're called to do that thing. Even if it's something good, something God's blessing and breathing on in a certain season, he may call you to pivot from that thing or to shift focus and attention. And it just felt like the right timing, you know, two years ago for Lorne and I to pivot a little bit from being so focused on music and touring and all of that, to doing what God, I think, has ultimately called us to do. And that's to steward God's people, to shepherd God's people. And that was something that God put in my heart early. Early on. Like as a teenager.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

You know, as just being in youth ministry, I had the most fire student pastor shout out to all the student pastors out there. But he really took a lot of time pouring into me, developing me. I love the church and I was able to lead worship and all that kind of stuff. But what I really fell in love with was walking to my church. I went to W.K. kellogg Middle School, downtown Battle Creek, and my church was downtown, so I could just walk a couple blocks to my church. So Wednesday nights after school, I walk up to the church and it's vacuuming the floor, it's getting the chairs ready, stealing construction signs from, you know, like, you guys might be too young for this, but like the vibe in a youth room was construction signs.

[Grant]

I missed that way.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, yeah, you missed that you were.

[Grant]

Still in kids church. Yeah, Crossroads.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah. Yeah. But we would. We would decorate the youth room. And I just fell in love with that side of it and invited my friends, went to public school, invited my friends in and watching them, like experience God on their terms, like in their type of environment. And so that's what I fell in love with. That's what led me to Bible college. And I felt called at 1920 to plant a church. And so I just been holding that in my heart, you know, for years and years.

[Grant]

Was that something that you while you're having all the success in music. Are you going, did it feel like this is disobedience the longer I go? Or was it like you were waiting on the perfect timing?

[Torn Wells]

It actually was painful obedience to not go.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

Because I'm like, I'm ready to do this. Like, that's all I really ever wanted to do. When I was in Bible college, we started a band. And we were so inspired by Desperation Band because they were in Colorado at New Life, this young adult movement led by music. But. And then there was this. Aaron Stearns was doing the Mill, and it was this young adult ministry. And I'm like, how is this. I just had no context for it. And I read a book by a guy named Nelson Searcy called Launch, and he described planting churches in cafetoriums. Okay. Which is the weirdest word.

[Grant]

Yeah. I was waiting on Tyria. I was like, toriums.

[Torn Wells]

I'm sure she knows it's where they flip it, you know, where.

[Grant]

That's amazing.

[Torn Wells]

But that, like, arrested my heart. And so in Bible college, I'm like, let's move to Colorado and start Mountain View Church. You know? And of course, the Lord was like, no. And my friends were like, no. And my pastor was like, no. And so I just kept bringing that to my pastor, to spiritual leaders. And at a certain point, I went to my pastor because it was so heavy on my heart. I said, you know, do you see a church in me? Do you see a pastor in me? I don't want this, like, Holy Grail, this pipe dream that I'm pursuing to maybe fix something in me or to solve something in me. And he was like, no, I see that in so much more. And you'll never know until you go and just see what God has for you. Then it was just kind of the perfect off ramp in 2023 to do that. God provided grace for it. And so here we are on the other side of that obedience. But it was more painful to wait, which sounds so crazy because I got to do so much cool stuff on the way. But God was uniquely using every single moment, every connect. It was like a total Mr. Miyag doggy thing where I didn't even see how the two were connected then. Now I thank God that he let me wait Till I was 37 to plant, because I was not the same person at even 27 right to do it, you know? So.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow, that's crazy. So how did you get from. It's Indiana Bible College.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Grant]

Y' all missing out. If you don't know. Yeah, I'm all over that brand.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Like, knew all about.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, you know about that music.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I'm like, man, I need to go stream some Indiana Bible college music.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

So you met your wife there and then how did you get from Indiana Bible College to eight, you know, Dove Awards and 10 Grammy nominate? Like, how. What was that journey like?

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, grinding. Grinding. I mean, we started in a. So you had to audition for this group that was like the premier vocal and band group at the school. And Lorna went to school on a vocal scholarship. Your boy did not.

[Grant]

No Scully.

[Torn Wells]

No scaly from the. I needed a blooper scholarship, but he.

[Grant]

Said from the mud.

[Torn Wells]

So the first year, I didn't make it into that group. I auditioned and everything and didn't make it. And so I worked really hard in the summer to, like, try to get my voice to where I could get in there with the squad. So went back the next year, got into the group, started traveling, and it was dope because we had an opportunity to inspire a lot of young people. And at the same time, it was like choral type music. And so I was like, we should really start a band. Like, that would be way more dope for people. So that was what really led to pursuing the whole music journey was. So I was over the pep rally for the school.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

So it was.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Makes sense. Joy bomb pep rally.

[Torn Wells]

I'm the built in cheerleader dude. So we had a big basketball tournament every year. And so I like brought these big trucks into the gym and we set up stage and did this whole thing. And that was the first performance of my band and people really liked it. Some of the dudes were hating on it because we stole the basketball attention away from them, you know, with the music thing. But we got like a lot of positive feedback on it. So we started calling our friends whose parents were pastors and like, can we come play at your church for your youth group? So we were like a one stop ministry shop. We had a guy in the group who would do children's ministry, you know, in the Sunday school room. We had a guy that would preach in the Sunday morning. We would do a concert, you know.

[Grant]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

So that's how it started. And we ended up playing at Leland Moring's parents church in Baytown, Texas. And it was a long time ago. There was just a few people there, but Leland was there. And Leland was like, bro, I just feel like we should bless you. We. We want to help you. And so they're the ones that brought us to Nashville. For the first time, paid for our gas in our van, paid for our hotel rooms, brought us to their music label, introduced us to the A and R that signed my band, so Shout Out Leland. But that's how that really started was just through little faithful minute obedience, you know, trying to get out there and slug it out. And it was. I think a lot of people want the dream. They want the podcast set. They want, you know, the opportunity. But God really leads us in through the back way, you know, through the ways that are not glamorous. And the stage on Sunday Morning looks so beautiful and all of that, but if you kind of. If you go through the back, the route through the back, it's like things are out of order and disheveled and out of place. And to walk through those empty hallways of life, you know, the difficult moments, the lonely moments, the times when you feel like there's no way this plus this equals my destiny.

[Grant]

Right, right, right.

[Torn Wells]

And somehow God is taking it all and working it all together for his purpose.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And so, yeah, it's been. It's been a journey, but it's been beautiful.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Well, and you just wrote a book, Joy Bomb, and I'm really excited to talk about that because I do think that the world has defined joy or happiness very differently than how God defines it and what God intends for us. And so what got you into, like, why this message? Why a message on joy? Okay, guys, I'm taking a short break from this podcast to tell you about some exciting news. My new book, Dare to be True. Stay true. Dare to be True. It just makes sense. When God laid this podcast on my heart, I actually had already started working on my next book, Dare to be True. And the whole point of this podcast and the whole point of this book is we were all designed and made for truth, and everyone in this world is searching for it. Yet so many of us are searching for the right things in all of the wrong places. And this book is all about tackling the lies that often entangle us and bind us and finding the truth that sets us free. And so in this book, we're going to be tackling all the things from sin and shame and the lies around eternity and the lies around your identity and the lies around your purpose and how to find the truth and live free. Because the reality is, it says in Proverbs 14:12 that there is a way that appears to be right, but in the end, it leads. Leads to death. There is a way that the world preaches that we should go, that we should follow that we should conform to that we should look like, and in the end it leads to death. Yet what God's word says is Jesus says in John 14:6, I am the way, the truth, and the life. So he is saying, the truth you are looking for can only be found in me. I am the truth. And I'm not only the truth, I'm the truth that leads to life and life abundantly. And then it says in John 8:32, when you know the truth, it's the truth that will set you free. And so if you have ever felt bound by lies, if you have ever questioned your worth, your confidence, your purpose, if you've ever wondered how you can break free from feeling weighed down, exhausted, overwhelmed, or even insecure about who you truly are and what your purpose is on this earth, this book is for you. I have often said I just want to be free. I have looked at my husband many of times and said, I just want to be free. I'm tired of feeling way down. I'm tired of feeling not enough. I'm tired of being on this endless cycle of striving and performing and never feeling like I can reach what I need to reach and be who I need to be. And when I go back to the truth, when I go back to who God is and who God says I am, that is when I experience true freedom. And so this book is for you and I am so excited. True Crew for you to go and get your copy of Dare to Be True. You can pre order it now. I will be including the link in this episode and so you can go and pre order it. It will be coming out this fall. I'm so, so excited and I can't wait. We're going to be doing some really fun series all about some of the content in this book. But you're going to want to get your hands on it because there's some really, really fun special pieces in this book that you can't get in this podcast. So you guys can go and pre order Dare to Be True. Now if you want to break free from what is breaking, you just tell us a little bit about the book.

[Torn Wells]

Well, first of all, I didn't just want to write a book to write a book. We were planting a church, had a lot going on. So I do feel like it was an assignment and I don't know if it was an assignment just for me or for other people. We'll find out. But I was going through my yearly Bible reading plan and shout out Nikki Gumbel lots of Shout outs on this. I don't ever shout anyone out. But Nicky Gumbel, you know him?

[Grant]

No, I don't.

[Torn Wells]

Okay, so he's a legend, has a church and a whole movement in the uk. And he does the Bible in a year with he and his wife Pippa. And it's just really, really dope. But. So I was going through that a few years ago and I came across Matthew 5 and he. He kind of defined. And I knew this, but I. You know how you can know something but you haven't really seen it? All right now I'm about to get fired up.

[Grant]

Come on now.

[Torn Wells]

I can feel the mic.

[Grant]

Somebody hold his mic.

[Torn Wells]

Feel my help coming. And he said that the word blessed meant happy. And I just kind of kept reading my devo and got to the actual scripture part. And I'm seeing, you know, blessed are the poor in spirit and blessed are those who mourn. And I'm like, I've heard this, you know, this is wallpaper, you know, for our Christian gatherings. We know this. But I just saw it differently that day. Like, blessed means happy. So then I'm like, hold up. Jesus orchestrates the events of human history to bring everyone to this inaugural moment where he would speak his first message that someone wrote down. And the first word out of his mouth is happy. And that just hit me. I couldn't get away from it. I sat with it for days, for weeks, for months. And I'm like, how important must happiness be to the heart of God if it's the first thing, the preeminent thing that he chooses to speak about and direct not only the hearts of the people gathered that day toward, but our hearts toward. He knew that this would be echoed throughout history and that this moment was of ultimate consequence. And I just thought, how have I missed this? And all these books that have been written and all these wonderful things that we know and have learned about God, and yet I went to look up, like, who's written on the Beatitudes? And there's not a lot of books just on Jesus's fault. First sermon, crazy. And I'm like, are we talking around the first thing Jesus ever wanted to communicate? And so that's what really, like, pulled my heart into this idea. And then I had to deal with the tension of, well, I don't always feel joy. I don't always feel happy. I've been in some of the most successful moments or seasons of my life meeting people I never thought I'd meet or being somewhere I never thought I'd be doing Something I never thought I'd be capable of doing.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And then go back to a hotel room or go back to my house and just be like, well, there's that. Cool. Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah. The global phenomenon, the Chosen, the series that has captured audiences around the world, has arrived. I recently posted a Q A on Instagram. And I always get asked the question, what is your favorite TV show or movie? And honestly, the answer is so easy because I don't watch a lot of tv except the Chosen. It's not your typical Bible show. It's raw, it's real, and it's full of emotion. It truly feels like you're walking through the most iconic Bible stories with them. And now it's back with its most powerful season yet. Season five drops June 15th on Prime Video. I know you guys are going to be just as obsessed with this TV show like Grant and I are. The end is just the beginning of this epic, incredible true story. Don't miss the exciting new season, the chosen Last Supper. June 15, season five on Prime Video.

[Torn Wells]

All this stuff I thought it would be and how I thought would feel. There was one time when I was at my house and this was the first time that I had my own writing room in my house, at which I was tripping about. I'm like, who gets a writing room in their house? You may feel like this, like, with a podcast.

[Grant]

Living room.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

That's a table, bro.

[Torn Wells]

I've been at the kitchen table. I've been in closets. I've been head under a blanket recording a vocal.

[Grant]

No, no.

[Torn Wells]

Like, I've been in the trenches, bro. And now I have a writing room. And the amazing thing was Lorna let me decorate it any way I wanted. So I have my green walls, you know what I'm saying? I have my little plaques, you know, on my wall of the things that I've been able to be a part of. And I'm just looking around that room at my green wall color and my little. My little trophies, you know, And I was like, oh, look at you, man. You really came up. This is amazing. And then I hear my kids running around upstairs, and they're all healthy and having fun, and Lorna's actually in the kitchen cooking something. And on this particular night, we had family coming over to watch an award show that I was nominated for an award on. And I'm like, this. And I had an awareness moment where I'm like, this is amazing. Who gets this life? And I thought this would be the perfect time to write a song. Like, there has to be something good that would come out of this. Went over to the piano. Then I started to play, and it was like, melancholy chords. And I was like, well, this is interesting. Maybe I'll maroon 5 it, because they always play, like, minor chords with, like, a positive.

[Grant]

I like that verb right there.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah. I start singing, and the words that come out are, you could have it all and still feel empty. And I'm like, is this how I'm actually feeling? Do I really feel empty right now? Surrounded by all of the goodness of God that's in my life. And these are the first words that come out. And I started, like, working on that. And honestly, I'm still working through that. And this book is a product of. Of working through that. But I think I had confused doing a bunch of stuff for God and even doing a bunch of stuff with God for actually just being with God and feeling what those people on that hillside felt of man. I don't have all the answers. I've got my doubts and I've got my disappointments. And my life sometimes looks like more than I thought it could ever be, and sometimes it looks like a whole lot less than I thought it would ever be. But sitting on this hillside, I'm in the presence of Jesus, and, like, there's something in his presence that I can't get away from. It fills me up in a way. It rejuvenates me in a way that other things don't. And that's. That's the heart flow of this work. It's from. From moments like that.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

So powerful.

[Grant]

Real powerful.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah. And. And I love that you spoke to that. It's so crazy. I actually just felt so convicted about a similar message and preached for the first time on the story of Mary and Martha and how you can do for J. And in the midst of doing for Jesus. You can totally miss Jesus.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And you can miss just being with him and just sitting and dwelling in his presence. And I love that you spoke on that, because it's been. It's funny. It's like, you know how the Lord will repeat himself? I'm like, maybe that's the Lord knocking on my brain right now. Like, Maddie, listen.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Listen to me. Because it is. It's so easy to fall into that, and it's so easy to get so focused on doing a lot of good and doing a lot of good things for God and just totally miss being with God and having a relationship. The best part.

[Torn Wells]

And that's the Mary Martha thing. It's like, it's not that all of that stuff didn't need to be done. Thank God for Martha. Martha is the reason why Jesus had somewhere to go.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Exactly.

[Torn Wells]

You know, but at the same time, she missed the better part. Yeah, the better part is not the doing. The better part is the being. It's the resting. It's the delighting in. And I. I just, you know, so I took inventory of my 2024 with the Church plant and all of that. And in every category that was, like, output oriented, I gave myself an above standard, which this is not a healthy practice. I would not. This is a recovering enneagram3 thing that the Lord's working on me through. But I basically went through and evaluated my year, like, above standard, meeting standard, below standard, and anything achievement oriented. I was like, above standard. I mean, you put out 10 songs, you turned in a manuscript, you planted a church, you did all this stuff. Above standard. Good job, Pat on the back. Then I started to look at every other thing that was input oriented or heart oriented. Lorna's date nights, being with the boys, actual scheduled counseling. Not just phone calls with my pastor, but, like, time that I'm working on my heart, my soul, health zero in that category. And I'm like, this is how you become a headline. This is how everything that God has done is sabotaged. And so my number one priority was getting some of these pillars in my ear. So I've been working through some things with my counselor, and one of the things he asked me was, you know, describe to me your prayer time. And I'm like, well, I have my day one app and I have my prayer journal in there. And I start with gratitude. And then I have my categories of people I pray for and things I'm praying about, issues that I'm working on God with. And, you know, I pray for fresh flows, you know, steady discipline, all of these things. And he's like, wow, that's a really structured prayer time.

[Grant]

It's a lot of formulas.

[Torn Wells]

You know how they be getting you, like, I'm paying for this. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm trying to, like, do it, you know, and to make the most out of it. He's like, yeah, that's great. He said, but what. What does it look like for you to just delight in the Lord? I'm like, well, I don't know. Unpack that for me.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And he's like, I think you need time to just delight in the Lord. I'm like, that sounds amazing. I would love to delight in the Lord. I Said, you know what? While I was writing my book, There's a little Airbnb little cabin I got about 30 minutes from my house. I can drive up there once a week, three, four hours, you know, and just delight in the Lord. Just be with God, you know? And he just kind of smirked at me. He was like, you could do that, or you could sit in that chair, close the door, shut your phone off, maybe have your Bible, maybe not. Depends on if you can keep yourself from working on a sermon. But go into God's presence and don't work on anything. Don't strategize, just be with him. And so I did that one morning. I got up, I went outside, and I just sat in my driveway with my big old Snuggie on, which I love that thing, by the way. It's a vibe. Feels like.

[Grant]

Like one.

[Torn Wells]

And this sounds so corny. Oh, my gosh. I can't believe I'm saying this, but I just heard, like, the birds, and I just thought of that. If he dresses the lies with beauty and splendor, if he cares for the sparrows and clothes them, I'm just like, man. And I was just sitting there and, like, the presence of God just came over me in such a peace and such a joy.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

And it was like, awareness. And he asked me, how did you experience God in that moment? And I said, well, I think I just was sitting there with him. Like, I would sit with one of my sons, just, like, happy to look at him, just happy to look into his eyes and just. And it was the most beautiful moment. And now I'm chasing those moments. Not like the times when I can be so desperate to be used by God.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Amen.

[Torn Wells]

And missing the. The better part.

[Grant]

Yeah. Yeah. That's so good that that has changed our life recently is especially when you're a teacher to not read the Word for them and you're just. And even if you're not reading the Word, I started to wake up, and I would sit on our living room floor and watch the sunrise. And you're not praying, you're just breathing.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

And it takes 15, 20 to break through the anxiety, at least for me, of text him, you know?

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Grant]

Once you pray, pray, right. And you move that out and it's like, yeah, that's when David. That's when you understand Psalm 27:4. When he says, there's one thing, I just want to gaze at your beauty. And people that haven't sat long enough in that still moment, I don't. I think we can read that, but not understand it. And what you're tapping into is, I think, what Jesus is begging all of us to do right now in 2025. It's like, I'm thankful for what you're doing for me, but just, like, sit. And out of that, you start to overflow and you don't feel like you're striving anymore. You don't feel like you're running uphill. And the best sermons do come out of that, but not how we would think. No, it's an inner interchange.

[Torn Wells]

It's an intimacy. It's an authenticity.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

I think when you're quiet enough to actually be real with God, you're quiet enough to be real with yourself. And so then once. Once God starts to excavate your heart and your soul, you're coming from such a more pure place. I'm not trying to push some produce out, but to find what's organically there.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And I think you're absolutely right, man. I wish that I could, like, learn that lesson and be done with it.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And not have to keep relearning it. Yep, yep, yep, yep.

[Grant]

How are we doing?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

No, truly. And that. And I want everyone to hear that, because it's not like we're. The three of us are sitting here saying, we've arrived. We've figured out it is a daily decision, choice, practice, like submitting to the spirit, quieting the noise of our own thoughts and the world, not doing for God, but just delighting and being with him.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And I love that you touched on just the heart, the pure heart, the purity of it, because it talks about in this Matthew 5, Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes. And do you have this whole thing memorized? I bet you do.

[Torn Wells]

Like, memories. Memorize. Like if you put me on the spot.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm the same way. I'm like, I haven't memorized until you asked me about it. Then I'm like, no, but I. I want to. I want to read it really quick, just for those listening and watching. And then I. I would love for you to dive into a little bit more of what is the difference between joy and happiness? What is the difference between how the world would define happiness and how God defines happiness? Because I think a lot of people would be confused. And if you were to read the Beatitudes, you would be like, wait, that's actually, like, anti. The world's way. That's actually opposite the world preaches and the church and. And a lot of times, a lot of Times the church, which is actually crazy.

[Torn Wells]

Many, many times.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's. It's so true. And it's. You know who's become my best friend lately is Chat GPT and. Yeah, yeah, me too.

[Torn Wells]

We have a mutual friend, right?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Exactly. And I was texting my husband this morning. He was out at coffee, and I asked Chat gbt, I said, hey, give me the Beatitudes of the world versus the Beatitudes of God. And it was actually, it was so interesting and I should pull up on my phone, but it took every single beatitude of scripture and what Jesus said and it, like, flipped it the world's way. And it was so intriguing because it's like, man, yeah, that is true. Like everything the world preaches of success and spotlight and influence and fame and notoriety and, you know, if you want to go get it, like, find your truth, then you'll be happy at all these things. And it's so the opposite of what Jesus says. And so I'm going to read this to those listening, and then I'd love for you to just dive into this concept a little bit more. And so it says in verse three, blessed or happy are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Happy are those who mourn. That's crazy, right? Happy are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. Happy are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. Happy are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. Happy are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. Happy are the pure in heart, for they will see God. Happy are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. Happy are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And happy are you when people insult you, persecute you, and say, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven. In the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Man, that feels so opposite of what the world says is happy and good.

[Torn Wells]

Absolutely. Well, first of all, like the most beautiful revelation of Matthew 5 is that he is not just showing us the attributes of a good person. He's not just showing us the qualities or characteristics of even the Christ follower. He is revealing to us himself that when you read those blessed are the poor in spirit, Jesus became poor in spirit. Though he was equal with God, he thought it not robbery to empty himself, to become the lowest form a human, a servant, even being obedient to death on the cross. Yeah, he became spiritually bankrupt so that we could be spiritually wealthy. Unbelievable. He is the one who mourned like, like the Weeping King, where power was actually demonstrated in his empathy for others so that he could be our comforter. He was the king crowned with meekness. Yeah, y' all remember the old song, so lowly, meek and mild, meek, strength under control. He didn't even declare himself as Lord until the triumphal entry. So he was okay with even his best qualities, the nature of who he was. He performed so many miracles. John said we couldn't even write them all down. But he constantly told people, don't tell anybody this. He wasn't rushing to Instagram or to social media to post his newest, greatest accomplishment. He was telling people, don't tell anyone meek. So, first of all, defining joy, I don't like. I don't even like Webster's definition. I don't like the theological books definition, because joy is not a concept, it's a person. And that's hard to kind of like, reconcile. But until we get to, like, Jesus is Matthew 5, like, this is the person. This. This is. I get to be in relationship with joy. I get to walk with joy. Joy is with me in my lowest moments. Joy is with me in my triumphs. Joy is steady because joy is Jesus. It is a part of his character. And I think before we even deal with, like, the. The world's idea of joy, I think we got to deal with the world's ideology about joy that has infiltrated the church because sometimes the church is the biggest perpetrator and perpetuating the idea that this is where you find your ultimate fulfillment. This is where you find your ultimate peace and your ultimate joy. We get a glimpse of it.

[Grant]

We.

[Torn Wells]

We get it in partiality. We get to know fulfillment to a certain extent, but we were not created for here.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow. Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

We were created for something bigger, better, brighter than here. God's presence forever. Yeah. Like that scripture of. In his presence is the fullness of joy. It's like, yes, in his presence is the fullness of joy here, but you can still get up from a moment with Jesus and have to go to a grave side.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Right, right, right.

[Torn Wells]

And you may have to get up from a moment with Jesus and walk into a house that's filled with strife because your parents just could not get along. You're going to go through breakups, hardships, disappointments, and still be walking with Jesus and feel all of that pain. The ultimate promise of joy in his presence is when we walk across the threshold of time into eternity, and we receive the reward for our lives. And it's the presence of God. That's when we will be ultimately fulfilled. That's when we will be ultimately satisfied. And so that's kind of the premise of, like, I'm not trying to, like, sell a book. I'm trying to communicate a message to people that there is a way of life that moves you into the space where God is and allows you to experience deep contentment and fulfillment. But don't get hung up on trying to feel it all here and now.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

Because that's a promise that awaits us on the other side.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's so good.

[Torn Wells]

There is so much to go into with, With. With this, I think. First, the distinction between, like, happiness and joy. I talk about this in the book who hijacked Happiness? Because when the first century church, when they heard the word blessed, they only heard happy. They didn't hear a distinction between happy is what the world has, enjoy is what believers have. This is a modern development. Even in church writings, in church history, this is a modern development. And so I think we have to deal with the hurdle of. Of God wants me to be happy. A lot of us don't actually believe that, bro.

[Grant]

That feels like a. Is the cuss word in the church.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

But you're like, I can't say that.

[Torn Wells]

I can't say that.

[Grant]

Pastor gonna pull me aside if I say that from stage.

[Torn Wells]

Yes. That.

[Grant]

Why is that it's so bad?

[Torn Wells]

Marketing.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Marketing.

[Torn Wells]

Because we had all this preaching. You know, I don't. I'm not super familiar with how y' all grew up, but. But a lot of how I grew up, not all of it. A lot of it was very like, God doesn't care about your happiness. He wants you to be holy.

[Grant]

Totally. And. And it's a bar until you're like, should I be upset? All this. Should I be sad all the time?

[Torn Wells]

Yes. You know, so does me being depressed make me more like God?

[Grant]

Totally. Right.

[Torn Wells]

Like, when you follow that theology through. He just wants me to be holy, not happy. So he wants me to be like him, but not satisfied in him. Like, it just doesn't make sense. Our holiness is actually connected to our happiness. True holiness is wholeness. It's not the disintegrated life, it's the integrated life. And so if I'm going to be whole, then I need to deal with the things that put holes in my soul, sin, dysfunction, chasing affirmation or affluence in certain ways. But the more I'm with him, the more I become like him. And if I'm with him and I become like him, then I'm going to take on the characteristics of his nature. God is the God of infinite joy. He is joy. The evidence of his spirit is joy. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness. So how can I be with God becoming like God, but not become more joyful and more happy? That just breaks down. He is uniquely interested in your happiness. He wants you to be happy. In fact, he gave us the pathway to happiness. But it. The flip is it's not out there somewhere.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

Happiness is not waiting for you when you meet your spouse, waiting for you when you have your kids, waiting for you when you buy your house. House when you get your dream career. When you. It's not what Dallas Willard said. It's the great beyond within. It's the pursuit inward toward the character of Jesus that allows us to unlock a fulfillment that people rarely experience.

[Grant]

Yeah. It's really good.

[Torn Wells]

So we gotta be willing to go inside.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And that's what I think Jesus points us to. Blessed are the happy are the poor in spirit. The first place he points us is to our spirit. It's. Happiness is an inside job.

[Grant]

That's really good.

[Torn Wells]

Literally.

[Grant]

There's a lot there. There's a lot there. For hours, man, I don't know you. And maybe people from the outside. We've talked about accolades and accomplishments, but I know you're human. And I can speak from us. Like, there's a lot of pain in this life. And so I think there are people that would be watching this that are in situations where the call to joy feels nearly impossible. And I know you just redefined it probably for a lot of people, that it's a person. It's not a people or place or thing. Talk to the person, man. That. That feels like, how are you expecting me to have joy when my dad is in the hospital on his last leg? How could I possibly have joy when I've been sexually abused? And. And no one cares. Speak to that because I think a lot of people right now need hope.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

That joy is not something.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

Talk about that. Yes. Circumstantial.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah. Well, that's the very premise. Just to nerd out real quick. And then I'll answer that specifically. The place that Jesus chose to talk about joy, he chose very intentionally. We know that God is a God of divine design. And so he didn't just happen upon a random place to deliver his very first message that someone would write down. I think he chose it intentionally. And you know we call it the Sermon on the Mount. I looked it up. It's not really a mountain, it's a hill. And I think that's one of the great misconceptions, is that, like, joy is waiting for us on some mountaintop. And I think he just chose a mountain we've never heard of. Like, mountains are very important to particularly Jewish history. You got, you know, all of these mountains, Mount Sinai, those types of things. This was one you would have never heard of. I had to look it up and I had to dig for it. It was called Aramis. And so here he chooses an ordinary place to sit down in just a field with ordinary people and to talk about joy. And I looked at that word. Aramis Eremis actually means desolate, isolated, strength. So he chose a desolate, isolated, seemingly insignificant place to communicate the heart of happiness. And it lets us know that you can have joy in a desolate place. Like when you're in a place that feels uncomfortable. Maybe you just went through a move and you don't have your people, you don't have your rhythms, you don't have your routines. It's a desolate place. It's an isolated place. You're beside the bed of your Father who you're losing, or you're in an isolated place. You feel like people can't understand the pain that you've been subjected to in your life. And he's saying, no, I was there. I'm there. I'm in that place. Joy is possible there because I'm there. I'm with you, and I'm catching every tear. I was with you in every difficulty. That's why he said, happier those who mourn, which is like. Like this tension is crazy, but you'll be comforted. I think initially Jesus has given us permission to feel. I think a lot of us have used religion, church events, conferences, hype, faith hype, religious hype, as just another narcotic. We don't go to the club. We're not smoking weed. We're not drinking. We're not having wild sex with people. But you know what we use? We use church like a drug, and we use church as a narcotic. And I'm just going to come get this Holy Ghost high and it's going to carry me. We've stopped many times coming to church for healing. We're coming to church to be numb. Numb me. Let me just bypass this pain. And Jesus is introducing a new way of life where you don't have to use his presence to bypass your pain. You get to go into God's presence to help you process your pain, like he's there with you. I think that the churches struggled a lot of times. Now I'm saying a lot of church. I'm a church guy. I planted a church. I love the church. I'm a product of the church. I got love for the church, big love, mad love. But I get to talk to my family like family and be like, hey, bro, we got to do better on this. And I think that we have, like, said things that preach good. Like, faith it till you make it. It's like, what does that mean? Because I'm feeling what I'm feeling. This is one of my favorite ones. You see this on T shirts. Faith over feelings. I'm like, what does that mean? Like, what? So do I just pretend like my feelings don't exist? Do I bury my feelings? The problem with buried feelings is we bury them alive. You can be rejected in a relationship at 17, get married in your 20s and be fighting a cyclical fight with your spouse at 35, 37, 40, because you never had permission to feel the rejection. Because you're like, well, that relationship meant nothing. Well, it hurt. It wounded you in a way that you need a process. And your youth pastor and your pastor and your girlfriend said, I'll act like that don't bother you, that don't hurt you. You don't need a man. You don't need it. It. And so we use apathy and defensiveness and all. So we never deal with it.

[Grant]

That's great.

[Torn Wells]

And Jesus has given us permission to deal with it. And if we'll allow him, give him. If we'll give ourselves permission to feel it, we will give God permission to heal it.

[Grant]

Yeah, that's great. I want to let you keep asking these questions. Kb, the rapper, he has a line. He says, your presence is my surgery. And all the time I spent in the Bible, all the time I spent in groups, I've been most healed. When we're talking about, I just listened to the birds and I was thinking about God, and we were talking about how the Lord reinstated Peter. Charcoal fire is used twice in the Bible. One time when Peter denied them, and then Jesus recreated the scene. And we were just talking about how, you know, the Lord wanted to bring Peter back and not just move forward, not just say, hey, I'm back. We're good. He's like, like, let's go back there.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

And I'm gonna address that wound.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

And speak truth to it.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

And there's Something powerful. You're saying that you've gotta pull that stuff back up.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

And let Jesus deal with it and then move on.

[Torn Wells]

Absolutely.

[Grant]

It's really powerful.

[Torn Wells]

Yes, it is. That's actually a section in the book. Grace resets the scene.

[Grant]

Wow.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

And so thank you for writing that.

[Grant]

Wow. I said, maddie, I caught a new vision.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

No.

[Torn Wells]

One man's in the day.

[Grant]

That's amazing.

[Torn Wells]

No, no, but that's absolutely right. And Jesus is so merciful that he goes and he repurposes the whole thing. He denied him three times, so he confessed three times. Like, he flipped the whole thing.

[Grant]

So good man.

[Torn Wells]

And. And he will do that for us. That blessed are the merciful, for they receive mercy. I think Peter needed to be on the receiving end of mercy. And as you see his journey unfold later in his life, his. His ministry, he needed to have a reference point where he met the miraculous forgiveness of God so that he could release other people from offense.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's so powerful. And this concept is so powerful, because I love that you're pointing to. Joy is not a concept. Joy is a person. Because that is the only way that we can have in the same, you know, with two hands, suffering and joy, you can be going through a really, really, really hard time and still be really, really joyful.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And I think that. That. Because a lot of times it doesn't feel attainable. It's like, I'm going through a really hard thing right now, you know, And. And Grant and I were talking about this earlier, and I'd love for you to speak to this, because I think a lot of times you hear this. This concept of choose joy. Just choose joy. And we were talking about it because he. He's one of the most joyful people I've ever met. And it's one of the things that attracted me to Grant so early on our first date. I called my mom after, and I was like, I'm gonna marry that man. I just knew it. But. But truly, day one.

[Torn Wells]

Let's go. You can't teach that one. And done.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah. You can't teach. I can't.

[Grant]

No.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But I called my mom after, and it was because he had truly the joy of the Lord. Like, I was like, this man has been changed by Jesus. He carries the conviction to follow Jesus and to make him known, but he has this overflowing joy that you can't fake. Like, it's. And it's in him. But I can tell, like, he's still been through some stuff. Like, he's not Just like, it's not just like, the cheesy, like, Christian, like, God is good. You know, like, nothing's ever been hard. God is good. It's like, no, in the really, really hard, God is still good. And because he is good, and when I am with him and he is in me, I can have his joy. And so I. I'd love to speak to, like, what. What do people, like, like, tackle the idea of, like, joy is a choice? Because when we were talking about it earlier, we were like, like, is it like. Like, like maybe there. There might be a moment where your face, like, like, get. What were we saying about that before?

[Grant]

Well, choose joy sounds good. Until it's like, okay, it feels a little bootstraps.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It feels a little discipline.

[Grant]

But you've already hinted at it. But it. It. Joy is the product. It's a fruit of the spirit. And so if you. If we're not starting on the same playing field, choose joy can be really discouraging because it's like, I just gotta choose this joy. Instead of kind of a release, it's. It feels a little bit more like, do it yourself. Is that what you were saying?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Right? Like, because when it is a fruit, it's like, okay, when it says in John 15, apart from me, you can do nothing.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's also, apart from me, you have nothing. Like you.

[Torn Wells]

Right?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Apart from me, you have no joy. Apart from me, you have no peace. Apart from me, you have no love. Because Jesus is love.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Jesus is peace. Jesus is joy. Like you're saying. And so it's not necessarily choose this concept, choose this thing. It's just choose Jesus.

[Torn Wells]

Right? And he'll produce it.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

He'll produce.

[Torn Wells]

And that's the. I think the Bible is so clutch because it uses such great imagery. Like, if. If joy is a fruit of the spirit, then it's produced, not manufactured. Like, the apple comes. Comes out of the apple tree. It's not an ornament. And I think a lot of us have. Have a framework for joy. It's ornamental. Like, I'm gonna put it on, and you can't put it on. We can tell when you're putting it on, and we can tell when it's produced.

[Grant]

It's really good.

[Torn Wells]

That's the difference. It's like, he's not putting this on because it's our first day, and I'm happy. Go lucky. This is something that was. Was produced. But in order for it to be produced, like the. The scripture says, unless a seed dies and falls to the ground, a Great harvest can't be generated. So we, we often think that we sow joy through laughter, but the Bible says we sow joy through tears.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Wow.

[Torn Wells]

So. So when you, if you sow in tears, the Bible says you reap in joy. It's the counterproduct. It's like golf. It's a game of opposites. It's like, if I really want joy in my life, that road is not paved with laughter. It's paid with reality. It's paved with resilience. It's paved with releasing, it's paved with deaths planted in the right place so that we can get the harvest of joy. And that's. You know, I'm not as familiar with your story, but like, like when you go through hard things and you allow yourself to feel them, you allow God to produce joy, the fruit of joy. And, and people can come and taste and see, like, God's good because I experience something real from that person.

[Grant]

Yeah, man.

[Torn Wells]

And yeah, I, I just feel this too. Like, the Bible says that God collects our tears, that he cares about our suffering. I think that's one thing. David prayed this. He was like, cast me not away from your presence. Like, he even had this legalistic, I don't know, some mentality that was like, well, if I mess this up, I'm getting thrown out. And I think because we framed joy and happiness in the Christian life as like, like you're supposed to have this, that when we don't, we feel guilty and we're like, God, don't throw me away or he must not really be with me. But God responded to David and said, I don't push away the brokenhearted, that the contrite spirit I actually draw close to.

[Grant]

Right.

[Torn Wells]

And it's through being honest enough to let our walls down and be like, like, I'm suffering, like I'm God. This hurts.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And he has the authority to heal us and the empathy to be there with us in it. And that is where the joy comes from. And, and joy, the result of joy is not always laughter and happiness. Sometimes it's just the strength to go another day.

[Grant]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Torn Wells]

It's like, how did you get through that? I don't know. The joy of the Lord was your strength, but it didn't show up like you're at a comedy club or doom scrolling funny videos on TikTok. It showed up because you were able to keep going.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And that's the, that's the beautiful. It's not just a, it's not just a feeling. It's a focus. And when it's the focus, it becomes a force.

[Grant]

Yeah. Wow.

[Torn Wells]

And that's the power that we have through joy.

[Grant]

Yeah, it. Joy. It seems like joy is attached to hope. Like, you started this, that. That this isn't home. And so we could start there. That is like, I'm an alien in exile. It's supposed to be hard. Jesus said, I'm with you. But. But, man, when you were talking about that moment when you had everything and you were like, aren't I supposed to feel. I remember having that very clear. I was at a coffee shop and it just seemed like, you know, the stars aligned your greatest dreams and. And it was this yearning for more. And I was like, I still feel. It's just like, oh, yeah, I'm not. I'm not in heaven yet. And so people could think joy is volume or smile or like you said, confidence. Joy is not that. And I think when you walk into church, sometimes for people that are unchurched, you see some of that ornamental joy, and it can really turn people off if we're not careful. Because you're like, like, well, I don't feel. I don't feel close to that. And that doesn't even look good on you as a church leader and pastor number one, I love. This is not on the book. This is kind of a random question, but how do you.

[Torn Wells]

How.

[Grant]

How have you taught this to your staff? Like, what's the culture of joy at your church? And how do you think through leading people through that?

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

For people that may not be churched.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah, that's a great question. One of the things we say a lot is if you don't feel it, find it it, because, like, it's in there. So you have a relationship with God, and so if you don't feel it, find it. Like it's in there somewhere. There is kind of like a game day mentality that's like, you don't have to be fake, but you got to find something like, God is good somewhere in some way. So if you don't feel it, but I also come in very honest with people, and I'll come in and I'll say, man, I don't feel it today. But I was glad when they said unto me, let us go to the house of the Lord. Because when I think about it, I don't even deserve to be here. I don't deserve to be a pastor, much less be in this room today. If I don't feel it, I'm going to find it. And I think A big thing for us is meeting people where they're at. Like, don't just put something on some. Hey, oh, come on. Why don't you buck up? It. That does not work. It doesn't work in marriage. It doesn't work with my kids. Like, you have to meet people where they're at and encourage them. So I would say we have a very strong encouragement culture. We have like a. Oh, what's up? Let's pray right now.

[Grant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Torn Wells]

You know, like, this serve is important, but your soul is more important than your serve. So how can we connect you? Step away from that door for a moment. Let's get you with a team lead. Like, let's meet you where you're at and let's deal with what we're feeling.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

No, that's so good, because we. I mean, I've. I've even seen, you know, Grant walk through this a little bit, as everyone knows him as, like, the most joyful, you know, person ever. And so he's like, well, what about in the moments when I don't feel like, you know, like, what. What do I do with that? And. And we've even had to walk through that, I think, a little bit too. And I've learned from, like, his joy, and I've been able to, I don't know, I feel like, grow in that as well. And I love that you're saying, like. Like, if you don't feel it, find it. Because again, it goes back to. In the presence of the Lord, there is fullness of joy. And in what you're saying is that side of hope that this is not our home, that heaven is our home.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And that verse continues saying, with eternal pleasures at his right hand. And so it's pointing back to. It's eternity. It's eternity. And so you're going to get glimpses of.

[Grant]

Of.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Of joy. You're going to get glimpses of. Of hope. But it's all for a better future. It's all leading you towards where you're experiencing the fullness of his glory, experiencing the fullness of joy forevermore. And I think that's such a word for. For people listening because so many people are trying to find it here. So many people. I was reading in Romans 8, and it's. It's just talking about how as children of God, we should be groaning here on earth, longing for his return. We should be longing for his return. We can't wait for him to come back because that's where we're going to. Experiencing the fullness of joy.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

But for so many of us, we're not groaning on Earth. We're actually, like, loving Earth. We're loving the things of this world, yet we still feel emptiness. Like, we still feel kind of what you were speaking to this, like. Like, there's got to be more. There's got to be more. There's got to be more. How come? I. I did get the dream. I did get the, you know, the job, the promotion, the money, the. The spouse, the thing. And I. And I need more. I need more.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

I'd love for you to just, like, as we're starting to kind of wrap up the podcast, I'd love for you to just speak to this idea of eternal joy and that. That is, as believers, like, that's what we were created for. That's what we were made for. The reason that you're. You're saying I want more. I want more is because you're. Your soul was made for eternity.

[Torn Wells]

Yes. That's so good. You guys are so amazing, by the way. I. I just have enjoyed talking to you guys today. Seriously, you're hitting the nail on the head. With happy are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. What we consume consistently, we will be consumed by eventually. And so if we are consumed with. With this thing happening on Earth, it will consume us. And the thing is it. It just. It eats you alive, and it. It eats on every. It eats away at every beautiful thing that God's given you when you're consumed with this. But if you're consumed with this, the things of God, with the kingdom of God, with the righteousness of God, with the glory of God, with the mission of God, then that consumes you. And one day we will be swallowed up by eternity.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And that will consume us eventually. And the. The feel it, find it thing, I want to go back to that, too, because sometimes you're not going to find it in you. And this is based on what you said. Like, God has placed eternity in the hearts of every person. And ultimately we could swallow the world whole and still be empty because we have, like, the vastness of eternity within us. So nothing from Earth is going to fill us. One guy that I researched, his name is David Murray, he gave us several categories for happiness. So there's like, vocational happiness, social happiness, environmental happiness, vocational happiness, humor happiness, and there's one more that I'm missing. The seventh is spiritual happiness. And he said that ultimately we try to use those other six to make up for the one spiritual happiness. So we use vocational happiness, social happiness, environmental happiness, like, for people that like to be outside, which I don't understand. I don't understand you. I'm not a hiker. Yeah.

[Grant]

I'm not better inside 100 AC. I'm just better.

[Torn Wells]

Like, why would you camp outside when you could go in, like, a hotel, bro, with ac? So. But we try to use all of those to make up for the one. The problem is spiritual happiness is a seal on the soul. So without spiritual happiness, the happiness that comes from God, we will leak. Every promotion leaks, every achievement that we chase in our children to fulfill us leaks what we hope our spouse will be or what. It all leaks without the seal of spiritual happiness. But when you have spiritual happiness, it amplifies the joy of every other thing. When I'm sealed with the happiness that comes from the Lord, I get different joy from my children. I get different joy from my marriage. I get different joy from serving people. And sometimes you're not gonna find the joy in yourself.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yeah, that's good.

[Torn Wells]

It's when you explore the eternal universe inside someone else that you find something to be grateful.

[Grant]

100.

[Torn Wells]

A bunch of these Beatitudes are about other people, right? Blessed are the merciful, blessed are the peacemaker. These are things that put other relationships in the equation.

[Grant]

Yeah, man.

[Torn Wells]

And so I think a lot of times we're so focused on us, Soul care, mental health, health, my time, my. That we're missing some of the things that God has given us in other people as conduits of joy, catalysts for joy in our own lives, man.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

That's.

[Torn Wells]

That.

[Grant]

That's it. We just did a whole podcast on. On the anxiety that's stemming from so much focus on self, even. Even your spiritual development. This podcast, this sermon, and it's. And you got these headphones in.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Grant]

Like, there's a ca. Sister barista in front of you that is on her last leg, and you got a sermon in, and you're not even looking at her, saying, hey, yeah. And I'm like, man, there's something there.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah. It's like getting to know Jesus when I need to get to know the Jesus in them.

[Grant]

Right?

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Grant]

Ask them how they're doing. So.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Man, that's so good.

[Torn Wells]

Yeah.

[Grant]

I could get excited, but, yeah, really good. It's really good, man. It's really good.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

We did a whole podcast on that, and it's convicting. It is convicting. Because, yeah, we can get so caught up in our. On our own worlds that we're totally missing what we were put on this earth to do. I, I'd love to, to end this podcast from a very practical standpoint. Just a few, like, practices of just how people can, you know, for, for the person who's like, man, oh, this is so good. Like, how do I do this? Like, okay, I understand you're talking about, like, Jesus's joy. Get in his presence. And, and maybe those are the practicals. But what we would. What practical advice would you give to the person that's saying, I want to have more joy in my life. I want to be a joy filled person. I want to carry joy when I walk into rooms. I just don't know how.

[Torn Wells]

Yes. It's so good. I. This is a shameless plug. I actually, I don't care if you read Joy Bomb, but go listen to my music study.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

He's like, I got this song called Joy in the Morning.

[Grant]

He said, listen, listen, there's this artist.

[Torn Wells]

Out here, but I have a new ep. No, that's hilarious. I hope you do. But there's so much in just the words of Jesus that aren't just a bomb for your soul, they're a balm. And it's so worth your time to dig in. And I think if you're not, you know, if you're new to your Bible, if you're new to studying things, that's why we write books, is to give you, like, handles for stuff. And so there's so much in here. There's so much about humility. You know, a lot of us, I love what Vanessa Van Edwards says. She says it in an organizational leadership context, but she's like, sometimes your team needs a painkiller. They need something like what you're asking for. I need joy. Like right now, my life is falling apart. What can I do right now to kill this pain? There are simple things that you can do for that. One of the practices that I love sounds like you're doing some of the same things, is using nature to minister to your soul. Just like to take a second and go outside or open your bedroom window or roll the windows down while you're driving in your car. Go on a walk and don't be talking to someone. Don't be listening to a podcast and just be with God in that space. It's such an easy, practical way. But, you know, a big thing that will change your life is not a painkiller. It's vitamins. I struggle with my vitamins. I was so mad when I got into my hotel room last night because I realized I left my vitamins at home and my doctor's gonna slay me, but I'm trying to, you know, get my B12 and my, my K2 10 thousands and all these things and my little fish oil, you know what I'm saying? So, because this beige don't age, but you know, it's not perfect. So I'm working on it. But those things, that's like long term. And I think one of the plagues of our time is we want quick fixes, we want immediate change. And this is kind of like a long haul journey. This is joy as you go. This is learning the practice of humility. When I walk into a room, it's not for people to say, oh, there you are. It's for me to be able to tell people, there you are. It's coming in saying, how do I serve? How do I see? How do I listen instead of talk the whole time? And these things, it's like what. The compound effect. But what compounds matters? If you're so self conscious that every room you walk into, you're thinking about, how do I look, how do I come across, how do I say this, how do I perform, how do I please people? That's compounding in your life to sabotage your joy. But if you're walking into a room saying, how do I serve, how do I give, how do I listen? How do I not tell everyone everything good about me and allow other people to praise me and for God to allow me to be discovered instead of me to try to uncover myself? Those things lead to a life of joy. And so it's not a super practical answer because joy starts with like an approach to life. And that's what Jesus shows us among so many other things. This is how you approach peace. I've given you the ingredients of peace, but you've got to make peace. Like, if you want to eat cake in this reality, you don't go to your grocery store and get one. You've got sugar and you've got flour and you've got frosting. You've got to make peace. You've got to take the elements in your life and figure out how to work them together with the Holy Spirit to create an environment of peace. So it's more process.

[Grant]

Yeah, yeah.

[Torn Wells]

And that's why this isn't 8 ways to unlock joy in your life. There's nothing wrong with that. Like, we need that.

[Grant]

Yeah.

[Torn Wells]

But this is not that. This is like, God, train my mind and teach my heart. Yeah, to walk in your ways.

[Grant]

Because. And if, like, because he's Relational.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yes. Yes.

[Grant]

And, and he doesn't want the formula for you. And so many people like give me. Okay, how can I feel it now? And he's like, but that would steal from me and you.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Yep.

[Grant]

And I'm just looking at you.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Grant]

And we've got a 11 week old baby. And, and so, so cute.

[Torn Wells]

I'm talking about being tired. Boy. Hey, boy.

[Grant]

Yeah. We in it different. And, and the relational. I mean, man, I don't just want to change her diaper and clean her up and then put. It's like, man, I just. We love when she stretches and smiles and, and people and it. And God is so good to not give us joy with the quick hitters. He's like, it's a little bit longer than that because it's time that we just get to walk together.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's relational. It's not religion. The to do's. Check, check, check, check.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's just be. It's dwell.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And spend time in his presence. Man, this was so really good. I'm excited to read this whole book because I, I got like some of the concepts, you know, from your team and preparing for, for this podcast. But I'm excited to, to dive in and get to study this and read this because it is, it's a, it's a flipped perspective of what so many of us inherit through worldly ideologies or even, you know, false teaching within the church or even based on our, our. Yeah. I don't even know past experiences that we have a false understanding of what true joy is and what, and how Jesus defines joy and how we can obtain joy here. But what true joy is, that's everlasting and eternal.

[Torn Wells]

Yes.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

And I'm, I'm so grateful for this conversation. It's been challenging and convicting and encouraging for, for Grant and I and so thank you so much for coming on Stay True.

[Torn Wells]

Thank you, man.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

It's. Stay True is better because. Because of you and because of you coming on it. So thank you so much and we will be including this, this link to the book for you guys to, to go and check it out and also his Instagram handle and social media handle so you can go and check out more of his music. We were going to sing for you actually and have you.

[Grant]

Hills and Valleys does something to my soul, man.

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Literally right before this I was like, should we in all seriousness, just like.

[Grant]

Just sing Hills and Valleys?

[Madison Pruitt Trout]

Just like start singing and ask you to. No, but I, I was like, man, the music is, it is so good and sometimes like, it, it's like connecting with the Lord in nature, connecting with the Lord in His Word. And sometimes it's like just connect with the Lord and in worship. Yes, it's some of my favorite moments with Jesus is just like, like it's not, I'm not just trying to talk. I'm not just trying. I'm just like, I'm worshiping Him. You know, I'm. It says in Psalm 100, enter his gates with thanksgiving and his courts with praise. Like, we should be as believers, the most joyful people on the planet. And, and, and it's a joy to enter his presence. And so anyways, I'm so thankful for this, for this work. I'm excited to, to dive into it. So grateful for this conversation. And as always, guys, let us know how that this episode has encouraged you, what your takeaways were, what you want to hear about next. And as always, guys, be sure to stay you and stay true. We love you.

[Grant]

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